Co-op Race Shop

[ADAM]

hi guys,
just trying to gauge the interest in a co-op race shop....what would everyone be willing to pay into a communal co-op race shop per year......

and would you be willing to travel to alliston to use the shop....

it would be 10,000sq ft, with high ceilings, and tons of room to park at least 10-15 cars inside at one time...maybe more? the building is not the problem..i can get it for $1500 per year rent...plus electricity...put in a wood stove or two...and off we go....

any interest in this?

i was thinking of having all the lifts and air lines and big tools..and people just bring the small hand tools?

is this a possible thing?

[Dave]

I am 100% interested :) I'd be willing to put in some $ for start-up and then my portion of yearly rental/maintenance costs. We'd have to do a proper budget work-up to see what it's really going to cost us, but assuming we get enough people in on this I don't see any reason not to do it. I'd love to have a full-sized shop to work on my cars, store my race car, etc.

[alexb]

Yes! $1500 a year!

[alexb]

Adam is starting to look cute!
Help me!

[Dave]

Adam has always been cute as a little button to me! :p

[GR8 Ride]

$1500 per year? Heck for $1500 per year, I'll rent the shop out by myself....

If all I have to do is run up to Aliston, then I'd be more than happy to pay $1500 per year for a 10,000 sq ft shop.

For $1500 per year, I'd be tempted to keep most of it for myself however....that's lots of room to store the race car and trailer.


Pat

[ADAM]

i want to get an idea of how many people would be interested....the real issue is how to come up with an agreement to purchase hard goods,

the lift would be the biggest investment......

the other issue is security of the premisis...

the building is very large..so space is not an issue...heating in the winter might be...but i think a few well placed wood stoves would do a good job...

it has a concrete floor ..and metal siding..with electrical service

if you have any ideas or comments on how this would be set up and work, please advise...

[rpr]

That's crazy cheap. There is water and electrical service, no? A lift would not be absolutely necessary, but very nice. Corner scales would be nice, as well as an alignment rack. hrm...I'm getting warm and fuzzies...

[ADAM]

i know the owner..i used to live in alliston...right now its just storing combines and farm equipment and stuff like that...plus a few cars...

[pokey1]

you might wanna try to run it like a condo corporation... basically everyone who wants in can buy a share (or two etc) each share then gets one vote on what to buy etc. If things go down the toilet (just in case) and you sell the hoist then each share gets a piece of the sale.

Unfortunately this type of arrangement still requires someone to run the show, come up with a budget, decide what one share would be worth, how many shares to issue....

If there's any lawyers out there....

[ADAM]

maybe more of a "club" then...i can front the start up costs, and members pay a yearly rental fee?

[turboawd]

Interestsing, maybe something a little closer is available.

I would be very concerned about security.

You can by stoves that run on used motor oil for about 2500 but for agri use only but if its on a farm and there would be no shortage of old oil.

You would need more than one lift. You can get them 2nd hand.

[GR8 Ride]

Guys,

If you're seriously looking at this, there are a number of other factors to consider.

One, you'd need insurance on the property as well. Especially if any of you want to protect yourselves against the possible theft / damage of your cars.

Secondly, with insurance, you won't be able to use woodburning / oil burning stoves in the workshop. The insurance company would deny anything involving open flame heating in a building in which automobiles are stored and/or worked on (just try putting a woodburning stove legally in your garage at home).

So, you'd be stuck with electric heat of some sort, or a fixed natural gas system (which sounds like it's not installed). Not bad, but pricey to run.

Lifts aren't terribly expensive, especially second hand. $2000 and up can get you a good two post lift, plus some installation.

Security might be an issue depending upon location. Aliston isn't terribly bad for this, and a decent security system can be setup for a few hundred dollars. Of greater concern would be the physical security necessary to lock down the place, such as chain link fences, gates etc.

If it's on private property (ie, farmland) we'd need to ensure arrangements have been made to allow late hours access, weekend access etc. It's also likely that many people may be interested in using the facility at the same time, and what processes are in place to handle 2 lifts and 4 cars needing to be worked on....

Just some thoughts, as it's a deeper subject than most think.


Pat

[alexb]

There bud!Can throw a few shackles in for start up costs.

[alexb]

Pat is starting to make scencse.:)

[Robv]

Ehm, where exactly is Aliston ? :o

Maybe it is a good idea to approach some car clubs to see if they are interested ?

Not sure if you want to keep this 'racers only', when a car club is involved there is a chance it turns into a hang out, which is fine as long as everbody agrees on that...

Just my 2 cts....

Rob.

[Moose]

Adam,

I am very interested in the concept ... However I have some thoughts ...


-Insurance / Liabilty ... Who ever "own's" the shop and contents and secures the lease on the property (Individual, Club or Co-op) has to have both theft (tools and contents not cars) and LIABILTY insurance to protect the individuals from the un-thinkable happening. This also protects the owner of the building from Liability issues.

On the Liability Issue the "owner/organiser" of the shop should probably Incorporate the shop to minimise the personal Liabilty should some twit drop a car off the hoist onto themselves. Some legal advise is probably a good thing

-Access, obviously there has to be some way to secure the space and contents, while allowing easy access to them by the members, A combination pad-lock and Alarm code that is changed monthy/weekly/ ? ... when you "book" the space you get the new code/combination to gain entry ... One or two people have to be in charge of this. Changing the code regularily will help minimise the chance the the code / combination become commomn knowledge. Booking of the space could be potentially done via a on-line calender. Using the space for storage of your car is at your own risk and the car's owner is reponsible for theft/damage insurance on the car

-Heat in the winter ... trying to heat an uninsulated 10,000 sq ft all winter is a waste of $$$$ ... what makes sense to me is to use Overhead propane radient tube heaters ... they do not have exposed combustion so they shoulde be safe and all you are heating is the area's you are working in .... you could put one each side of the hoist and two over the work area(s) ... you just turn them on when you come in and off when you leave ... a big tank of Propane should last all winter.

Shop Tools ... basically anything that is to large / expensive for the average shade-tree mechanic to afford, but that will become affordable when co-owned or rented.

-Used 2 post hoist
-Big ASS air compressor ... 100 gallon tank, 10HP motor etc ... enough air to power a couple of impact guns and other similar airtools continuously with hard-lines with a bunch of individual regulators. Basic Air Tools are cheap ... they really do not need to be provided IMHO ... Perhaps one High-quality / High -torque Impact gun for thoose REALLY stubborn bolts.
-Perhaps a drill press (self -supplied bits),
-A bench grinder with wire wheel and grinding stone,
-A wall mounted spring compressor,
-A hydralic press(for bushings/bearings).

There will obviously have to be rules established for the use ... and loss of shop priviges if the rules are broken.
-Remove all oil/coolant / garbage from premises after use
-Sweep/clean work area's after use
-Turn-off heat after leaving
-No excessive noise after 10 pm
-etc et cetc


I am more than willing to kick in some cash to evaluate the concept and see if it is feasible ... and if it woks out then I would be very interested in paying a monthly/yearly fee to have access to the facilities

Keep us in the loop Adam ... thanks for trying to broker this for us !!!!!

Cheers

Moose

[Moose]

Aliston is just up the 400 arround highway 89 ... about 20 minutes north of the 401 assuming no traffic : )

[Dave]

I often see used Snap-On tool sets for sale in 'iSell' magazine. I'm talking full sets being sold by professional mechanics. We could probably buy up a set of these for the workshop at a reasonable price.

Long-term goal...a dyno! Zoom zoom!

Moose, I think we need to assimilate Adam into the HADA collective and simply make this workshop the HADA ClubHouse :)

[tanney]

That, of course, would require Adam buying a Honda.

Damn the Nissans!

[rpr]

Doesn't his wife have a CRV? I seem to recall hearing that somewhere. I don't think he's weasely enough yet though.

We are HADA, you will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

[Moose]

Yes Adam's wife does have a Honda CRV ... but being a Nissan truck driver he flat out refuses to admit that there is a Honda in the Driveway ... He is in serious Honda Denial


: P

Moose

[rpr]

Isn't that a river in Africa?

[JGraves]

The idea of a "club garage" is very interesting although I am much too far away (Ottawa).

As for the Honda thing, I too own Honda products (93 XR650L and 91 Civic Si) but would never join HADA as thats too much like ... like saying your proud to drive a ... a ... Honda, and most likely a FWD Honda. While the Civic is reliable and I daily drive it in the winter months, I just bought Blizzaks to run the Miata in the MCO Winter Solo series. I had used the Civic last winter but for the last event I co-drove a 240SX and swore I would never go back to competing in a FWD car.

Jeff

[Brent]

I am interested also. I don't have any money and I am not a Honda owner (although I play one on T.V.), but I only live about 30 minutes away. I should be able to help out with setting the place up, if this comes together, although I don't think I will need to use the place for my car.

[Moose]

Ahhh one of the Girli-Car drivers is heard from ... a little late and 90 cents short of a dollar ... You are making a great assumption that HADA would accept, let alone entertain an application from you


: P



Moose

[JGraves]

That's a lot of talk for a guy that couldn't keep up with a basically stock girli-car.

PS I still owe you some video of your car spinning at the last event.

[ShaneG]

The concept is very enticing but as Moose said there are some issues that need to be sorted out. The issue of club ownership could sort out some of the incorporation type issues but ...which club. I would have to put in a vote for HADA :D for my own reasons;)
Shane

[Moose]

Jeff,

Hahaha .... Well what do you expect .. my disadvantaged FWD 130HP engine is hauling arround 2800lbs of LOVE(including me of course) ... your svelte girli car with its with its sprightly driver is at a distict advantage ..... keeping that in mind you SHOULD have left a much larger beating on me at the few events you choose to attend : )



I would love a copy of the spin ... What tape format is it recorded on ????? If you have time could you dub me a copy, or if you have the technology rip it and burn me a CD I will gladly pay for the CD and the postage

Cheers

Moose

[JGraves]

Remember the my miata had stock suspension except for KYB AGX shocks which are not really an upgrade from stock.

My in-car footage in in Digital 8 format which I copy to VHS and download highlights to PC via firewire. I don't have any need for my 8mm tapes until spring so I've been lazy about copying the footage. I'll be certain to make you a high quality copy before recording over that tape.

Jeff

[ADAM]

in the next while i will table a propsal witrh some governing rules, and people who are seriously interested we can have further dialogue....


one more question...... what do you think a reasonable yealy rate would be....?

considering that...
1=full use of a shop...
2=free indoor storage of your race car


adam

[Brent]

Moose, 2800lbs? Do you have 400lbs of aftermarket accessories or do you weigh 600lbs?

[Moose]

I am off I bit ... I did my calulations in my head ... not very advisable in my case : )

Curb-weight of 93 civic Si 2326 lbs
Add optional Airconditioning ~50 lbs
Add 4 point Rollbar and assorted suspension braces ~100 lbs
Add me ~250 lbs

Equals an earth shattering 2726 lbs

BUT I have not had my car on the scale so I do not know the true weight


~Moose~

[Nabs]

I am also very interested for the costs shown before.

[RICK3059]

I'm working in the marketing + sales department at Sears Home Security. We could install a system for the building and have it monitored for smoke and intrusion. I could arrange for parts + install for probably ZERO $ or not too many $. We could do the monitoring for approximately $25.00 per month.

Rick Dalton
416-444-HOME

daltonmotorsracing@rogers.com

[ADAM]

will keep that in mind..

...do you also install real time web cam systems with infrared?

and would 2 camera's be able to run off a pc with a p233mhz? i have a spare computer

adam

[RICK3059]

We have CCTV available, but it drives the costs way up. A monitored smoke + instrusion system should be more than adequate.

[Laynlow13]

You'd never get insurance. Liability isues. I have to becareful letting customer's in my own shop, nevermind a shop shared by countless people. At the least you would have to sign everyone on to the policy. The premiums would be worth more than the building itself no doubt!

I don't know, maybe thers a way around it that I don't see.

[ADAM]

insurance issue has been taken care of...and a pretty low cost policy is available for the building

re: working on cars
....all members cars will have to be covered individually for fire, theft, and liability....to get the use of operation clause...

so its pretty simple

adam

[ADAM]

yeah...BUT your customers are not doing the work on thier own cars ....


Originally posted by RICK3059
We have CCTV available, but it drives the costs way up. A monitored smoke + instrusion system should be more than adequate.

[Taylor]

Adam, if you can get dedicated internet service to the building, then yeah you could hook up a couple cameras.

As for a 233mhz machine real-time encoding 2 live streams... umm.. no. :) Not at any usable resolution. Yo ucould put in a dedicated compression card, but you might as well put in a P4 for what it'd cost.