Shocks

[craig]

While I'm waiting for my car to be classed (prod CCC :p ), I was wondering, where is the line drawn on PIP'ing shocks? I never really thought about this before.

For example, I assume one doesn't have to take the PIP's for OE shocks from the dealer. OTOH, it'll cost me $2k to get shocks from the dealer - fake-race Bilstein PSS-9's are cheaper, even with springs!

So, what about non-sport shocks like Monroe Sensa-trac, Koni Special (reds), Koni FSD, Bilstein C or HD, etc? PIP's or not? One can't really use the "OE specification" rule with aftermarket shocks, as no aftermarket shock that I know of (and most dealer replacement shocks) has the same valving as OE. Every aftermarket shock is firmer than OE spec, even the cheapest Canadian Tire shock. (This is deliberate, so customers feel a difference.)

So ... where does the line get drawn, or is it any aftermarket shock that gets PIP'd?

[ScotcH]

Hmm .... good point. I guess the generally accepted 'OE' replacements shocks (like Monroe or Crappy Tire) will not get PIPed, while the 'sport' or tuner varieties will ... this includes Koni specials (reds) btw.

Are you waiting on the VW to be classed? Sorry ... I totally dropped the bal aon that. Krispy will be notifed ASAP :)

[Carguy]

While I'm waiting for my car to be classed (prod CCC :p ), I was wondering, where is the line drawn on PIP'ing shocks? I never really thought about this before.

For example, I assume one doesn't have to take the PIP's for OE shocks from the dealer. OTOH, it'll cost me $2k to get shocks from the dealer - fake-race Bilstein PSS-9's are cheaper, even with springs!

So, what about non-sport shocks like Monroe Sensa-trac, Koni Special (reds), Koni FSD, Bilstein C or HD, etc? PIP's or not? One can't really use the "OE specification" rule with aftermarket shocks, as no aftermarket shock that I know of (and most dealer replacement shocks) has the same valving as OE. Every aftermarket shock is firmer than OE spec, even the cheapest Canadian Tire shock. (This is deliberate, so customers feel a difference.)

So ... where does the line get drawn, or is it any aftermarket shock that gets PIP'd?

Must... resist... ranting... about pip scale for shocks and springs... :rolleyes: :)

[ADAM]

well if we are not piping tires...then we should 100% not pip different levels of shocks :)

[Pete@Marcor]

well if we are not piping tires...then we should 100% not pip different levels of shocks :)

Even though it hurt, I was told ADJUSTABLE shocks were piped.

[ADAM]

Pete ..
did you get my e-mail on that oil sandwich adapter?

[Pete@Marcor]

Pete ..
did you get my e-mail on that oil sandwich adapter?

Yes. I tried to reply, but some issues occurred. I did send you another email that I thought worked. Can you email me directly at peterm@marcor.ca , please? Thanks.

[craig]

Even though it hurt, I was told ADJUSTABLE shocks were piped.

So is that the criteria? That seems clearcut to me.

[Slowpoke]

Please rule on this then CCC and Chuck... it will affect the classification of how I know a couple of club members are prepping their cars...

Non-adjustable shocks = free?

So, we can have any shock revalved as long as there's no external adjustment, and it's free?

[ScotcH]

Please rule on this then CCC and Chuck... it will affect the classification of how I know a couple of club members are prepping their cars...

Non-adjustable shocks = free?

So, we can have any shock revalved as long as there's no external adjustment, and it's free?

Ummm ... definitely not. Not sure where this came from, but it has never been the case. You can get non adjustable bilsteins that are "race" shocks. Adjustability just guarantees that they will be PIPed ... it does not mean that non-adjustables are free. Basically as I stated above ... OE replacements (like a monroe or whatever) are free. All others, not free. Are there specific models that you are concerned with?

[Dave L]

how about adjustables that came stock. Would those be pip'd?

[ScotcH]

how about adjustables that came stock. Would those be pip'd?

Nope.

[Dave Barker]

how about adjustables that came stock. Would those be pip'd?


We would need to know the model variant of your car that came with adjustable shocks OE. If your model has adjustable shocks stock, it should have a higher handling index.

[craig]

Below are specific "OE replacements" (according to the shock manufacturer, not the rules) that I am interested in. All are non-adjustable, all have fixed spring perches, all are valved to be used with the stock springs, all are designed to work at the stock ride height, and all talk about comfort with improved ride in their marketing literature.

1. Monroe Sensa-trac
2. Koni FSD
3. Bilstein HD (the type, not Heavy-Duty)

The Monroe and the Bilstein are both monotube high-pressure gas.

Myself, I don't have an opinion whether there should be PIPs or not. I just want to know whether there are PIPs or not.

Aside about factory adjustable shocks: My understanding was that only the OE (not OEM) shock was allowed without PIP's - for example, 944's have single-adjustable Koni Sports (with adjustable ride height) as OE, but the aftermarket Koni Sports for the 944 would still be PIP'd.

... and Steve, re-valving is a modification, so the shock is no longer OE. Therefore, PIP's.:D

[Carguy]

We would need to know the model variant of your car that came with adjustable shocks OE. If your model has adjustable shocks stock, it should have a higher handling index.

Dave is spot on. The key to this is what the stock suspension index takes into consideration in the first place. If OE replacement shocks are equivalent in performance to the OE shocks, then no PIPs. If valving, adjustable vs. non-adjustable, inverted tube vs non-inverted, etc. are different then they get PIP'd.

The sticky point is how can you tell if they're equivalent? Also, what if the replacement shock is of lesser performance than OE? Take way PIPs? No, never. The rules assume the suspension is optimized and therefore will cost you PIPs... Alas the CCC has answer for everything. :p :)

[Pete@Marcor]

2. Koni FSD

This is a perfect example of why PIP-ing shocks is a slippery slope. This particular shock has some pretty new technology in it, and is VERY comfortable. However, it is also incredibly good at controlling low frequency movements (like ROLL), while still being comfortable on the sharp bumps and cracks. In a Solo 2 in the US, some guys are using FSDs and finding them faster than Koni Sports, depending upon their driving style and personal preferences.

I know that this is a debate that we should not open up here, but why not PIP every non-OEM shock? If you replace your shocks, you get charged some PIPs. It would make it much easier to police.

[ScotcH]

This is a perfect example of why PIP-ing shocks is a slippery slope. This particular shock has some pretty new technology in it, and is VERY comfortable. However, it is also incredibly good at controlling low frequency movements (like ROLL), while still being comfortable on the sharp bumps and cracks. In a Solo 2 in the US, some guys are using FSDs and finding them faster than Koni Sports, depending upon their driving style and personal preferences.

I know that this is a debate that we should not open up here, but why not PIP every non-OEM shock? If you replace your shocks, you get charged some PIPs. It would make it much easier to police.

You're right, and it would make sense, but the cost of a Monroe senseOcrap is MUCH cheaper than OE shocks ... we're talking $100-200 per shock in some cases. Since many cars have their shocks replaced with non-OE shocks in the interrest of saving cash, it would be unfair to penalize these "grassroots" racers. The FSD however, according to your above description certainly sounds like it's a better performer than OE, and so would likely be PIPed.

[RRRex]

Socks are still free. That's why I always race with fresh socks. :)

[Slowpoke]

Are there specific models that you are concerned with?OEM non-adjustables from a different trim variant.

[Slowpoke]

... but the cost of a Monroe senseOcrap is MUCH cheaper than OE shocks ... we're talking $100-200 per shock in some cases. Since many cars have their shocks replaced with non-OE shocks in the interrest of saving cash, it would be unfair to penalize these "grassroots" racers. '04 STi's came with rear struts that would last 20,000km for most drivers. Once warranty is gone, they charge $750 per strut. Spring not included.

I had mine fixed for free once, but warranty's gone and the struts are shot again. $1500 for OEM ride that sucks anyway? $500 more and I have a set of ride height adjustable coilovers and valving adjustment for all FOUR corners.

I think it's wise to offer a free non-OEM shock replacement rule... just how far to go is the question?

[craig]

You're right, and it would make sense, but the cost of a Monroe senseOcrap is MUCH cheaper than OE shocks ... we're talking $100-200 per shock in some cases. Since many cars have their shocks replaced with non-OE shocks in the interrest of saving cash, it would be unfair to penalize these "grassroots" racers. The FSD however, according to your above description certainly sounds like it's a better performer than OE, and so would likely be PIPed.

Actually, the FSD are the least expensive of the shocks I listed (for my application, that I could find). All are significantly cheaper than OE for me.

Once you wade through all the marketing crap, the Monroe Sensa-trac and the FSD both purport to do the same thing that Pete said. Monroe just doesn't market to the high-performance sector (and Arek :D ).

[ScotcH]

Actually, the FSD are the least expensive of the shocks I listed (for my application, that I could find). All are significantly cheaper than OE for me.

Once you wade through all the marketing crap, the Monroe Sensa-trac and the FSD both purport to do the same thing that Pete said. Monroe just doesn't market to the high-performance sector (and Arek :D ).

Lol ... yeah, I'm so hard to convince :)

[Dave L]

We would need to know the model variant of your car that came with adjustable shocks OE. If your model has adjustable shocks stock, it should have a higher handling index.

944S with option m474 includes koni adjustable shocks and struts.