ASN Autoslalom Rules

[JoeT]

This may or may not pertain to the CASC rules, but here it is, regardless. These are the 2007 rules.

http://www.wpg-autox.org/forums/showthread.php?p=116626#post116626

Enjoy!

BTW: All boosted cars now needs 4 points for turbo mods, yup that means MSP's, Subies, Etc.

[Tony Kloosterma]

not that i am effected but the 4 points for a boost mod is assinine.

I have no idea how anyone in thier right mind can justify 4 points for adjusting the boost.

As its march the 7th, my assumption is that this change is a change for 2008 and not 2007, its a little late in the game to be making such a drastic change for the current year.

CAC give your head a shake.......

Tony

[Doug Phillips]

not that i am effected but the 4 points for a boost mod is assinine.

I have no idea how anyone in thier right mind can justify 4 points for adjusting the boost.

As its march the 7th, my assumption is that this change is a change for 2008 and not 2007, its a little late in the game to be making such a drastic change for the current year.

CAC give your head a shake.......

Tony

I will have to wait until the rules are posted here to get them.

Tony, forgive my ignorance but how would this be any different from taking 4points for internal motor modifications for power in non turbo cars?

Does the rulebook provide feedback and decisions made on the questions that were put out last December?

[Tashko]

I will have to wait until the rules are posted here to get them.

Tony, forgive my ignorance but how would this be any different from taking 4points for internal motor modifications for power in non turbo cars?

Does the rulebook provide feedback and decisions made on the questions that were put out last December?

Turbo at 2pts made sense to me. Do engine internals, take 4pts, and then crank up the boost for another 2pts. Total 6pts for a turbo car.

I guess this is when we start comparing power output vs. pts for NA vs. FI? ;)

[Tony Kloosterma]

boost mod might get you 20% if nothing else is done to the motor

if you do internals (ie cams, pistons etc) you would get a hell of a lot more

2 points was reasonable.

I think its a bit late in the game to make such a signifigant change

I never did see this in the list of proposals that was talked about a few months ago

again, i have no vested interest in the outcome as I am in mod anyway

Tony

[JoeT]

Pax Differences:

Class 2006 Pax 2007 Pax
CSP 0.85 0.835
ESS 0.818 0.824
DS 0.798 0.804
ESP 0.838 0.844
FSP 0.824 0.833
AS 0.831 0.838
HS 0.78 0.789
GS 0.794 0.803
CS 0.813 0.822
CSS 0.83 0.835
DSP 0.839 0.846
FSS 0.804 0.813
DSS 0.819 0.826
ES 0.806 0.812
ASP 0.862 0.868
DM 0.855 0.879
CM 0.909 0.889
BS 0.822 0.828
BSP 0.853 0.863
AM 1 1
ASS 0.842 0.848
BM 0.944 0.909
BSS 0.833 0.843
FS 0.805 0.809
SS 0.84 0.848

Also attached is a spreadsheet comparing pax times vs raw times and differences between 2006 and 2007. Also a practical application of the pax using OMSC's results from 2005 (too lazy to look up results from last year, I'll do it soon)

[Doug Phillips]

boost mod might get you 20% if nothing else is done to the motor

if you do internals (ie cams, pistons etc) you would get a hell of a lot more

2 points was reasonable.

I think its a bit late in the game to make such a signifigant change

I never did see this in the list of proposals that was talked about a few months ago

again, i have no vested interest in the outcome as I am in mod anyway

Tony

So the new rules are you take 4 points for internals and another 4 points for boost?

If I could get a 20% increase in my power for 2 points I would be all over that. What can a non-turbo car do to get equivalent increases in power?

[Doug Phillips]

Pax Differences:

Class 2006 Pax 2007 Pax
CSP 0.85 0.835
ESS 0.818 0.824
DS 0.798 0.804
ESP 0.838 0.844
FSP 0.824 0.833
AS 0.831 0.838
HS 0.78 0.789
GS 0.794 0.803
CS 0.813 0.822
CSS 0.83 0.835
DSP 0.839 0.846
FSS 0.804 0.813
DSS 0.819 0.826
ES 0.806 0.812
ASP 0.862 0.868
DM 0.855 0.879
CM 0.909 0.889
BS 0.822 0.828
BSP 0.853 0.863
AM 1 1
ASS 0.842 0.848
BM 0.944 0.909
BSS 0.833 0.843
FS 0.805 0.809
SS 0.84 0.848

Also attached is a spreadsheet comparing pax times vs raw times and differences between 2006 and 2007. Also a practical application of the pax using OMSC's results from 2005 (too lazy to look up results from last year, I'll do it soon)

Wow you are fast! Busy bee!

[JoeT]

Wow you are fast! Busy bee!

Here it is sorted by class:

Class 2006 Pax 2007 Pax
AM 1 1
AS 0.831 0.838
ASP 0.862 0.868
ASS 0.842 0.848
BM 0.944 0.909
BS 0.822 0.828
BSP 0.853 0.863
BSS 0.833 0.843
CM 0.909 0.889
CS 0.813 0.822
CSP 0.85 0.835
CSS 0.83 0.835
DM 0.855 0.879
DS 0.798 0.804
DSP 0.839 0.846
DSS 0.819 0.826
ES 0.806 0.812
ESP 0.838 0.844
ESS 0.818 0.824
FS 0.805 0.809
FSP 0.824 0.833
FSS 0.804 0.813
GS 0.794 0.803
HS 0.78 0.789
SS 0.84 0.848

Time to trade in your cars for H-stock.. LOL

[Tony Kloosterma]

the real problem is that to get any real benefit of a boost mod you need to change injectors and a few other things.

The change makes no sense, its like charging 2 points for changing brake rotors

Tony

[Doug Phillips]

Here it is sorted by class:

Class 2006 Pax 2007 Pax
AM 1 1
AS 0.831 0.838
ASP 0.862 0.868
ASS 0.842 0.848
BM 0.944 0.909
BS 0.822 0.828
BSP 0.853 0.863
BSS 0.833 0.843
CM 0.909 0.889
CS 0.813 0.822
CSP 0.85 0.835
CSS 0.83 0.835
DM 0.855 0.879
DS 0.798 0.804
DSP 0.839 0.846
DSS 0.819 0.826
ES 0.806 0.812
ESP 0.838 0.844
ESS 0.818 0.824
FS 0.805 0.809
FSP 0.824 0.833
FSS 0.804 0.813
GS 0.794 0.803
HS 0.78 0.789
SS 0.84 0.848

Time to trade in your cars for D-stock.. LOL

This list has different PAX numbers than the other list.

What is with CSP?

[JoeT]

This list has different PAX numbers than the other list.

What is with CSP?

I cut and pasted the wrong spreadsheet, it's been corrected. Check again please.

[Slowpoke]

Well it affects me, and puts me into Mod if CASC-OR tries to adopt it. Come on, it's March... decisions on prep had to me made by now with budgets set and orders placed.

As Tony mentioned, you can't get much on boost changing the stock injectors as well, which you will already take two points for. If you don't think that's true, see how long your engine lasts when you add 30% more boost on stock injectors. So why make boost alone 4?

2 points for small boost increase
2 points for large boost increase with 2 points for injectors = 4 points

The rule worked fine before. Afterall, you haven't seen SS boosted cars unfairly taking the overall every year, have you?

[Tashko]

So the new rules are you take 4 points for internals and another 4 points for boost?

If I could get a 20% increase in my power for 2 points I would be all over that. What can a non-turbo car do to get equivalent increases in power?

Well, I wouldn't say it's a 20% increase. That really depends on the car. Boost increase from 11psi to 15psi is what can be done on my car without changing anything and maxing the turbo. That's supposedly about 10% increase, plus running a little lean, and heat-soaking the intercooler. Not an ideal set-up. That would take my 195hp (yeah, about 300,000kms ago!) Talon to ~210hp.

Not sure what NA can do but generally NA cars start with more hp when in the same class as FI don't they?

A turbo car in SP would take:
2pts(now 4pts) - Boost mod
4pts - Internals
2pts - Fuel system
8pts just to get some power which will now be 10pts. Max allowed 15pts. If you actually modify/change your turbo to actually gain meaningful power, it's an additional 4pts which leaves no room for suspension except an anti-roll bar.

I'm going to be running MOD class if the Ontario rules follow suit. I don't plan on doing Nationals, so this won't affect me until next year, but I'll still end up in MOD class.

[JT_TT_DS]

boost mod might get you 20% if nothing else is done to the motor...

i think some big support for the 4pts rule came out of the winnipeg club. we have a couple STI's that went and got their cars professionally tuned on the dyno. all they are doing is springs, cat back, cold air, and ECU and they are putting down over 300awhp these cars on the little 225 street tires in the hands of a good drive (not the owners thankfully enough for our pts system) they could kill alot of the other cars out there. never mind the one guy went to 255 RT-615's. there was no way that the other SS guys with NA could EVER get that amount of power in SS. the original lobby was to rid Boost mods entirely from SS competition but i guess they decided that 4pts would screw them up just as much. cause now you can't do springs and ECU so the SS guys really have to pick and choose what they want to do to be faster, power, or agility.

one of the incredibly fun and incredibly fast STI's that's running only 6 pts in SS
http://i17.tinypic.com/478nd6x.jpg

[13inches]

I don't see that 2pt -> 4pt change proposed in the attached bulletin:

http://www.casc.on.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=9980

???

[Tony Kloosterma]

And all these cars boosted into MOD now need rollbars.
Not so smart on the part of the CAC, nice way to chase people away.

[gatherer]

hmmm well color me confused... (somewhat)

Anyways I think the change to the boost control devices to 4 pts and the change of the Controller where the controller also controls boost to 4pts was to keep these mods out of SS. Which a few people have discribed as being a "mainly suspension tuning class" I think the better method to keep these mods out of SS would of been to uncheck the box that allows them in SS.

if I read Tashko's post correctly this one change has now forced some SP cars up into Mod and some Mod cars will babove the 16 points which requires a roll cage.

in SP you can have 15 points, so if I had a boosted car...

4 points for internals to the engine
2 points for modification fo the turbocharger system
4 points for the boost control (which I'd make sure was controlled by the ecm so I was taking 4 points for modification of the ECM where the ECM also controls Boost

thats 10 points. I have 5 left that I would use for suspension.

Of course this would require one clarification... and thats the 2 point s for the turbocharger... is that just modification of the turbocharger? or can I modify piping as well say add an intercooler using those 2 points. I'm unsure here and would need clarification if I wanted the intercooler as well I'm at 12 points for the engine work and only 3 points left for my suspension mods. (which I'd use for any other suspension mods since that covers alot)

Of course this is all pipe dreaming since I just bought some land in Bancroft and have to pay for it .. so regardless of points I can't afford any of this. however I think the easy way of limiting boost mods in SS would of been to simply uncheck the box allowing those mods in SS and therefore leave the other classes alone.

just my 2 cents, I hope everyone has a great time this year.

[Marsh]

CSP 0.85 0.835
CSS 0.83 0.835


CSS and CSP have the same pax. Brilliant! Because bolting on a supercharger has no real improvement in performance. I'm going to hope that's a typo.

Once again HS gets faster cars and the gap from it to other stock classes increases.

[Slowpoke]

Once again HS gets faster cars and the gap from it to other stock classes increases.
Didn't your club get the memo about the changes to becoming a Spec Car series? The Civic is the spec car for Autoslalom in Canada.

[Pete@Marcor]

So the new rules are you take 4 points for internals and another 4 points for boost?

If I could get a 20% increase in my power for 2 points I would be all over that. What can a non-turbo car do to get equivalent increases in power?

Having been in the tuning world for a bit, and doing a bit of VERY quick research online for the last little bit, if I were tuning my turbocharged car, I would seriously expect more than the 10-20% that seems is being suggested is the max that would be possible for an otherwise stock turbo car.

For a Subaru vehicle, MRT lists a couple of kits, and I think that their stage 2 (or xB) woudl be somethign that would be SS legal, and could be achieved with the 4 points. One woudl not be able to to do suspension as well, but the power gains would be in the 25% + range, with over 40% gains in torque available, for those 4 points. How many points would a normally aspirated car require to get those gains?

I have a customer who does Nissan tuning. On a 300ZX TT, one could go from the 300 stock HP to around 400, with exhaust, ECU, and a boost controller. He guestimated that torque gains were significantly greater.

1.8T VWs can go from their 150HP (or up to 180 on later cars) at the crank (which is 130-160 HP at the wheels) to 210-225 HP at the wheels, with just ECU tuning and exhaust.

A Mini Cooper S will go from 145 HP at the wheels, stock, to 195 or so HP, all with SS legal bits and boost.

My point is that these gains are not only easily attainable, they are significantly greater than the gains possible for a normally aspirated car.

To maintain a level playing field, I agree that the points for a boost mod should be increased.

The Ontario Region rules will follow suit with the CAC rules.

[Tony Kloosterma]

and what about those preped cars now needing rollbars

its a ridiculous rule

[JT_TT_DS]

and what about those preped cars now needing rollbars

its a ridiculous rule

that rule has been around for the last couple years that i remember. i only have the 2006 rulebook handy but it's definitly in there.

10.7. Roll-over protection
Roll-over protection is highly recommended for all open vehicles and is required for A &
B modified vehicles and C & D modified vehicles having 16 preparation points or more.
All roll-over protection devices shall be constructed to the requirements outlined in
Appendix C or D of these regulations.

so it's not like it's new

[tanney]

and what about those preped cars now needing rollbars

its a ridiculous rule

Tony, short of me actually looking this one up, what is the section/subsection on that rule? To the best of my knowledge, nothing along these lines was changed from last year or the year before. Of course I am getting old and my memory isn't as good as it (I won't say was) should be.....

[Tony Kloosterma]

I would have to look it up but rollover protection was not required for c and d mod previously
only a and b if i recall correctly

(but then again I may have misread it)

[brujack]

I am assuming that the 4 points for boost is separate from any points for ECU changes that are not part of boost changes. All of the STI ECU reflashes are doing computer mapping in addition to any boost changes. Those people would need to take additional points for changing the ECU programming. Adding an external boost controller or modifying the stock boost controller to add more boost is very different from changing the ECU to gain even more power from adjusting the boost. If it were me, I would gladly take the 4 points for "boost" adjustment and fine tune the ECU for mad gains in torque. Just look at a WRC car, 300 HP and well over 500 lb fts of torque from just over idle. Makes for a very very fast car and killer Autoslalom car.

Bruce

[gatherer]

Tony, short of me actually looking this one up, what is the section/subsection on that rule? To the best of my knowledge, nothing along these lines was changed from last year or the year before. Of course I am getting old and my memory isn't as good as it (I won't say was) should be.....


it's in the Mod section .. 10.7 Roll bar protection is needed for All A and B mod cars plus C and D mod cars that have 16 points or more in them. (of course this rule was always there, it just gets complex for fairness when people are bumped into mod due to points changes)

Conversely if you have more then the 15 points for SP you are in Mod and will have 16 or more points and require the cage.

Anyways by upping the points for some mods it could push some SP cars into Mod based on number of points since they are above the 15 points for SP they are in mod and any time you have more then 15 points you'd have 16 points or more and require the cage..

I wish I was a cage builder I'd get a ton of work .. however I can't weld.

[13inches]

I wouldn't be upset about the rollover protection rule...its always been there.

I'd be upset that the prep-point schedule changed with no warning........!

[Tony Kloosterma]

that was my point when i said its already March 7th and we hear about this change now. Its pure BS and was not in the notice given to us a couple months back.


I am in mod anyway and alreayd have a cage but there are a few guys that will be pushed over the edge on this one..

makes little sense for them now to do the series

and just for the record I agree that you don't have to change boost in SS in order to win that class, thats already been proven

Tony

[Slowpoke]

Anyone who has spent the winter planning car prep for three different series, and succussfully solicited sponsorship from from a parts supplier, who finds out Mid-March that their region MIGHT implement a rule that affects the owner's ability to run in a series he told that sponsor they'd be running in, would not interpret this as a minor change.

At least ASN got the fairness thing right. It was pointed out in these forums in the fall to the director how certain stock vehicles benefitted more than others from being able to change wheel size, so now only stock wheel size is allowed in stock class at the Canadian Nationals for 2007. That's at least going to balance out the previous advantage of being in H-Stock.

[JoeT]

Having been in the tuning world for a bit, and doing a bit of VERY quick research online for the last little bit, if I were tuning my turbocharged car, I would seriously expect more than the 10-20% that seems is being suggested is the max that would be possible for an otherwise stock turbo car.

For a Subaru vehicle, MRT lists a couple of kits, and I think that their stage 2 (or xB) woudl be somethign that would be SS legal, and could be achieved with the 4 points. One woudl not be able to to do suspension as well, but the power gains would be in the 25% + range, with over 40% gains in torque available, for those 4 points. How many points would a normally aspirated car require to get those gains?

I have a customer who does Nissan tuning. On a 300ZX TT, one could go from the 300 stock HP to around 400, with exhaust, ECU, and a boost controller. He guestimated that torque gains were significantly greater.

1.8T VWs can go from their 150HP (or up to 180 on later cars) at the crank (which is 130-160 HP at the wheels) to 210-225 HP at the wheels, with just ECU tuning and exhaust.

A Mini Cooper S will go from 145 HP at the wheels, stock, to 195 or so HP, all with SS legal bits and boost.

My point is that these gains are not only easily attainable, they are significantly greater than the gains possible for a normally aspirated car.

To maintain a level playing field, I agree that the points for a boost mod should be increased.

The Ontario Region rules will follow suit with the CAC rules.

But the real issue is, the rules were released "late" and you're forcing us to use them. Regarless if MRT Sells a kit that fits in SS or not, no one in their right mind will rip out and replace their existing setup which I know for a fact, that many have spent in excess of 5-8K on, and buy that kit.

Perhaps in 2008, if this book were adapted, it would fly.

Let's get real, these rules are sent out late, there is a significant change, you're mandating them to be used, at the expense of attendance. Is that the correct attitude, or are you willing to make concessions for attendance?

Please let us know, so that the affected ones can decide on the course of action appropriate to the individual.

Is that a fair request?

[JT_TT_DS]

At least ASN got the fairness thing right. It was pointed out in these forums in the fall to the director how certain stock vehicles benefitted more than others from being able to change wheel size, so now only stock wheel size is allowed in stock class at the Canadian Nationals for 2007. That's at least going to balance out the previous advantage of being in H-Stock.

where is this referenced?

[Navigator]

7.8. Wheels
7.8.1. Unless appropriate preparation points are taken for alternate sized wheels, any type wheel
may be used provided it complies with the following: it is the same width and diameter as
standard, and as installed (including wheel spacers if applicable) it does not have an offset
more than +/- 0.25 inch from a standard wheel for the car.


From Point Prep.

Wheels of other than stock diameter and/or width and or offset beyond +/- 0.25”. (Applies to Stock category only) Vehicles with wheels less than 13” in diameter may use 13” with no changes in width or offset. Vehicles with metric sized wheels may use alternate rims using the following sizing method: Diameter- convert metric measurement to inches and round to the nearest lower inch measurement.
Width- convert metric measurement to inches and round to the nearest smaller ½ inch measurement Offset- measurement remains the same based on the closest
millimetre equivalent. 1 pt. Only Class to take that point is stock.

[JT_TT_DS]

At least ASN got the fairness thing right. It was pointed out in these forums in the fall to the director how certain stock vehicles benefitted more than others from being able to change wheel size, so now only stock wheel size is allowed in stock class at the Canadian Nationals for 2007. That's at least going to balance out the previous advantage of being in H-Stock.

i know you can swap rims and take a point, isn't that what you posted ivano? i'm wondering where it says about the 2007 nationals and only using stock sized rims..

[tanney]

Please let us know, so that the affected ones can decide on the course of action appropriate to the individual.

I'm curious..... how many people does the 2-4 point change REALLY effect to the negative? One? Two?

Tony has stated that he is already in mod.....

How many SS cars are running this mod?

[JoeT]

I'm curious..... how many people does the 2-4 point change REALLY effect to the negative? One? Two?

Tony has stated that he is already in mod.....

How many SS cars are running this mod?

It affects enough to be significant. Seriously. Tony maybe in mod, but he's not the only Subaru running the series. I believe we averaged between 20 - 25 / event in 2006. Lots of those were in SS. BTW, It doesn't affect me either, this is for the non-vocal majority that makes up the group.

[Navigator]

i know you can swap rims and take a point, isn't that what you posted ivano? i'm wondering where it says about the 2007 nationals and only using stock sized rims..

JT, I was posting it as I agree with you, I dont see it anywhere where you are forced to use a stock wheel in stock class. You just have to take the point for it.

[tanney]

It affects enough to be significant. Seriously. Tony maybe in mod, but he's not the only Subaru running the series. I believe we averaged between 20 - 25 / event in 2006. Lots of those were in SS. BTW, It doesn't affect me either, this is for the non-vocal majority that makes up the group.
So you are saying that 20-25 people in Subarus are effected?

Don't take this the wrong way, I am just asking....

[Daniel]

I'm curious..... how many people does the 2-4 point change REALLY effect to the negative? One? Two?

Tony has stated that he is already in mod.....

How many SS cars are running this mod?

I really don't see what you're getting at Wes.... :confused: The issue is the timing of the announcement, that's it....

This doesn't affect me either (I don't possess the necessary parts... ;)) , but there are definitely a few Subaru drivers around that will be affected.

[tanney]

Well, the timing of the release is definitely my fault as I lost interest and Pete had to pick up the ball...... For that I apologize.

[Navigator]

I never realized that the only cars that are factory boosted are Subaru's :confused:

[101rs]

I'm curious..... how many people does the 2-4 point change REALLY effect to the negative? One? Two?

Tony has stated that he is already in mod.....

How many SS cars are running this mod?

I don't think the SS cars are the problem, it's the SP cars that are going to get bumped into mod because of the extra 2 point and therefore aren't allowed to run due to not having a cage installed.

maybe leeway can be given on the cage rule for this year?

edit:and there are two cars that are regulars that i know of so far.

[Navigator]

Well, the timing of the release is definitely my fault as I lost interest and Pete had to pick up the ball...... For that I apologize.

I dont think its your fault, especially if you were waiting for ASN to publish the 2007 Rules. Afterall ASN just released them this week.

[JT_TT_DS]

i guess we (winnipeg) don't have all that many SP cars that will get bumped to mod, but we needed to get a couple cars out of SS.

although i do think we have one audi that will be coming in this year that will be affected by this rule as well as maybe a civic or two and they are both running street tires. personally i don't see the reason for a roll cage well running street tires in mod because you'll never flip it. even on dot-r's i doubt you'd see a problem. it's when your running full slicks that it could be a potential problem.

[Slowpoke]

At least ASN got the fairness thing right. It was pointed out in these forums in the fall to the director how certain stock vehicles benefitted more than others from being able to change wheel size...

i'm wondering where it says about the 2007 nationals and only using stock sized rims.

JT, I was posting it as I agree with you, I dont see it anywhere where you are forced to use a stock wheel in stock class. You just have to take the point for it.

Hrmmm. You know what... I don't see it in the 2007 rules either.

That's odd. How did that issue get left unaddressed?

After they were able to fast-track this boost rule... how did that get ignored?

[Pete@Marcor]

I don't think the SS cars are the problem, it's the SP cars that are going to get bumped into mod because of the extra 2 point and therefore aren't allowed to run due to not having a cage installed.

maybe leeway can be given on the cage rule for this year?

edit:and there are two cars that are regulars that i know of so far.

Mike, I have already started talking about that possibility.

Steve D and I talked quickly, and I said I would try to get back to him later today.

Wes was waiting for the release of the National book, but we have been discussing a revised Regional book for a little while.

[tanney]

I dont think its your fault, especially if you were waiting for ASN to publish the 2007 Rules. Afterall ASN just released them this week.

Still, it was my responsibility and I dropped the ball. Pete was thrown head first into the fire pit, so please be easy on him.

[Tashko]

I would've been at 15pts this season. With the extra two I'm bumped to MOD. I can easily save one of those points but I'm stuck at 16pts unless I give up the rear-bar. That's not going to happen because it was such a bitch to install in the first place!! (yes, I know, it's my choice.)

4pts - internals
2pts - turbo mod/sub
4pts - boost
2pts - fuel
3pts - coil-overs
1pt - rear bar

Unless boost mods or anti-roll bars or something is made free in MOD class to compensate those 2pts I won't be showing up. :(

[JoeT]

Still, it was my responsibility and I dropped the ball. Pete was thrown head first into the fire pit, so please be easy on him.

Wes, it's not fair for you to take the brunt of this on your shoulders. Having experienced it first hand last year for the CAC, it's understandable how things can get delayed.

[Tony Kloosterma]

perhaps if 4 points covered all turbo, boost, supercharger, FI and related parts ( ie injectors)then it would be fair.

I agree that its not an issue for SS, a well prepped subaru can win SS with out turbo or boost mods

Tony

[gatherer]

I would've been at 15pts this season. With the extra two I'm bumped to MOD. I can easily save one of those points but I'm stuck at 16pts unless I give up the rear-bar. That's not going to happen because it was such a bitch to install in the first place!! (yes, I know, it's my choice.)

4pts - internals
2pts - turbo mod/sub
4pts - boost
2pts - fuel
3pts - coil-overs
1pt - rear bar

Unless boost mods or anti-roll bars or something is made free in MOD class to compensate those 2pts I won't be showing up. :(

and at 16 points you get the joy of gutting your interior and welding in (or bolting in) a cage.....

I still think the simple way of addressing this would of been to uncheck the box that allowed the mod in SS ... this would of solved the SS issue in Winipeg without creating a SP/MOD issue in Ontario

[Marsh]

Hrmmm. You know what... I don't see it in the 2007 rules either.

That's odd. How did that issue get left unaddressed?

After they were able to fast-track this boost rule... how did that get ignored?

It was also pointed out to the director, and you personally (by me) that restricting stock vehicles to stock sized wheels makes MANY HS cars illegal since you can't buy performance tires for 13x5 wheels, let alone R's. This argument will never die. Change the rules and the winning stock drivers will trade in their $2000 uncompetitive car for a $2000 competitive car and continue to dominate. The fast drivers have always been the fast drivers no matter what they drive.

At the risk of sounding stuck up, I'm getting rather sick and tired of people claiming that the car I drive has an unfair advantage.

[Tashko]

Marsh, the car you drive has an unfair advantage. :D :eek: ;)

[gatherer]

Marsh, the car you drive has an unfair advantage. :D :eek: ;)


Agreed lets ban good drivers from stock classes.

[Pete@Marcor]

It was also pointed out to the director, and you personally (by me) that restricting stock vehicles to stock sized wheels makes MANY HS cars illegal since you can't buy performance tires for 13x5 wheels, let alone R's. This argument will never die. Change the rules and the winning stock drivers will trade in their $2000 uncompetitive car for a $2000 competitive car and continue to dominate. The fast drivers have always been the fast drivers no matter what they drive.

At the risk of sounding stuck up, I'm getting rather sick and tired of people claiming that the car I drive has an unfair advantage.

I have a suggestion. Actually buy a car that is a class winning car. You have traded the Civic in for a Miata. So, no more worries, correct?

[13inches]

This whole discussion is only relevant for this year.

Next year, SCCA rules will dictate all. Then we're all screwed equally.

[Dave L]

Agreed lets ban good drivers from stock classes.

Finally something I can agree with :)

The rules are both good and bad at times and there will never a point when everyone is completely satisfied.

For me if I upgrade my car, a 944S, I get bumped to ASS, while a RX8 goes to BSS and an e30 M3 goes into CSS. I dont see the logic as all three are B Stock cars but hey "dem's da rules". I guess I just have to decide if I want to put in those new springs I just bought.

[13inches]

I'm curious..... how many people does the 2-4 point change REALLY effect to the negative? One? Two?

Tony has stated that he is already in mod.....

How many SS cars are running this mod?


By my count, there were 4 drivers in SP last year who showed up somewhat regularly and could be affected. 3 Subarus, 1 DSM.

There's also 5 in SS that may be affected. 4 Subarus and 1 VW.

FWIW................

[JT_TT_DS]

a simple roll bar is all that would be needed am i correct? not a full cage. i may be wrong, but it only says roll over protection not roll cage is required. my brother and i had a bit of a discussion and he was stating that any car with race seats should require roll over protection because those seats are designed only to be used with roll bars cause they don't collapse like stock seats do.

but i do think the rule was meant to mess people up quite a bit. our SP and SS classes are based off the SCCA ones and their boost regulations are way stricter then ours so the NA cars in the states have more of a chance then the NA cars up here. this levels that a bit more i guess.

[Slowpoke]

...restricting stock vehicles to stock sized wheels makes MANY HS cars illegal since you can't buy performance tires for 13x5 wheels, let alone R's. ...

Dunno what you're talking about. Toyo and Hankook make R's for 13x5's. The SCCA seems to know what it's doing... I think their Autoslalom series is a little more popular and research based than ours.

If this is really about equalizing performance, and stock cars being stock cars, make them run the the wheels they came with (or the min-size in the rules) to justify their classing and PAX.

I don't see evidence of a problem here with boosted cars running away with Overall Championships, but suddenly there's a snap reaction nationally and late announcement that makes family cars previously running SP ineligible now. Prep and agreements have to be thrown out the window, or the owners of these cars can't put people in the back of their car safely. And they would suddenly be ineligible for the ORRC when they have rollover protection. Or they can go out and buy another car as Pete suggests. Any way around this and they're out thousands to class competitively again.

Autoslalom is about HANDLING more than horsepower. Why hasn't the FireChicken or Doug Phillips won the overall? Or Kyle with his beast if this Horsepower is the critical factor here? Allowing stock cars to run whatever wheel size they want unfairly benefits some HS and GS cars vs. their AS through CS competition. And our results are showing that. And it's not just driver talent... what happened when Daniel got out of his modified boost SS car and got into a GS car? Yet there's no effort nationally to address this unfair balance on what is most important in Autoslalom; handling? But we need a poorly thought out, knee-jerk reaction to boosted cars in SS with no advanced notification (or invitation for input from) the people who participate in these events?

[JT_TT_DS]

Well i think it has to do with the Technical Advisory Committee.

i know for a fact that two guys i know on that were lobbying for the boost stuff to be changed. and we knew about it long before the 2007 rules came out. maybe it's not as noticeable in the subaru club because they are almost all boosted. i also think that they don't take all that much from the national competition because there is such a small turn out, but more from regional series to where cars are dominating. but once again it has to do with the people that report it. if these people say no the car isn't cleaning up the class, but it definitly should be with the right wheel man. or have personally driven two cars in the same class and the one is a way over dog for the same reasons cars in other class's our way over dogs, then things get passed along.

i knew the wheel thing was going to get shot down because it wasn't in the spirit of the canadian rules or something like that. i've been wanting us to use the SCCA wheel rules for this year because i'm on the very edge of whether my tires are legal or not because they stick out the side of the car a tiny bit. which in SCCA is totally fine.

[finboy]

But the real issue is, the rules were released "late" and you're forcing us to use them. Regarless if MRT Sells a kit that fits in SS or not, no one in their right mind will rip out and replace their existing setup which I know for a fact, that many have spent in excess of 5-8K on, and buy that kit.

Perhaps in 2008, if this book were adapted, it would fly.

Let's get real, these rules are sent out late, there is a significant change, you're mandating them to be used, at the expense of attendance. Is that the correct attitude, or are you willing to make concessions for attendance?

Please let us know, so that the affected ones can decide on the course of action appropriate to the individual.

Is that a fair request?


rule changes are expected, needed and will always be received with mixed reviews..

For a National & Regional series to act this way with rule changes is a joke


Timing is the issue.. release them and implement them within reason

(if it was a safety issue, go for it) but regular competition stuff
things need to be released in a timely manner.. 2008 would be proper



otherwise.. it might as well be a local club making local changes..


and people wonder why Regional attendance is down?? its because rule changes like this say piss off to the people who actually take solo II a bit more competitively/seriously



mission statement... "to build solo II into a North American Class competitve skills event, keeping the unique Ontario/Canadian focus in mind"

http://solo2.casc.on.ca/info/mission.php




rightonmang!!

[J.C.]

a simple roll bar is all that would be needed am i correct? not a full cage. i may be wrong, but it only says roll over protection not roll cage is required. my brother and i had a bit of a discussion and he was stating that any car with race seats should require roll over protection because those seats are designed only to be used with roll bars cause they don't collapse like stock seats do.


Inresting point. IMO, If your going to force rollover protection on vehicles just because of PIPS you might aswell include roll protection for non collapsing seats. For that matter a stock vehicle is more likely to be rolled.

That said why do we need any rollover protection in solo II for non removable hard top cars. If course guidlines are followed the chances for a roll occuring is very small. If by some fluke this did occur the damage should not be enough to collapse a car's roof.

Where I can see a few people getting upset is if we switch to SCCA rules for 2008 and they no longer require the rollover protection.

[Marsh]

I have a suggestion. Actually buy a car that is a class winning car. You have traded the Civic in for a Miata. So, no more worries, correct?

This is what I'm saying. If I win in the miata, then somebody will argue that it has an unfair advantage. We'll switch to SCCA rules because of these complaints that our rule book favours stock too heavily. Then everyone with a blow-off valve will have to get a roll bar and wear nomex and stock will still kick everyones cans up and down the tarmac like they always do, but likely even worse since there is pretty much no CASC-OR vehicle that's legal for an SCCA class except stock and MOD.

Why are we cow-towing to the vocal minority when no matter what they get written in the rule book nothing they want to happen ever comes of it.

[tanney]

and people wonder why Regional attendance is down?? its because rule changes like this say piss off to the people who actually take solo II a bit more competitively/seriously



mission statement... "to build solo II into a North American Class competitve skills event, keeping the unique Ontario/Canadian focus in mind"

http://solo2.casc.on.ca/info/mission.php




rightonmang!!

The mission statement has been followed.... We are building a competitive skills event and we are TRYING to keep it unique. Fixing something that is broken is trying to keep the series competitive.

Last minute rule changes may drive a few people away, yes, BUT someone who states that they want nothing to do with the series, previous and now, that is bitching and complaining on a public forum isn't driving people away?

If you've got something positive to add or suggest, fire away. If you have had no intention of coming out in the first place, why post your opinions? If you've got concerns, drop the Autoslalom Director a line stating those concerns.

If your just interested in just your funky club series, does your club not have message forum of it's own? If not, maybe it's time to create one.....

Just my opinion.....

[13inches]

funky club series

:confused:

You wouldnt be trying to drive people away from a club series on this forum because of your own feelings, now would you?

[tanney]

Not at all. Funky is a good thing, most of the time.

I truly used to enjoy your club series. I also really, really enjoyed the one MCO club event I went to back in 2001 (and again in 2004). I used to actually enjoy going to almost every event I went to but after I became the Solo 2 Director I noticed certain attitudes changing.

Now this forum seems to be a Regional Series bashing forum/club series promotion forum.

Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with club promoting their series here. What I do have a problem with is people bashing the Regional series and promoting THEIR club series in the same posts (or threads)...... Certain members of the community seem to do just that.... regularly.

[tanney]

:confused:

You wouldn't be trying to drive people away from a club series on this forum because of your own feelings, now would you?

Just out of curiosity, what's the difference if I was, on THE REGIONAL message forums, putting down a series who have two members who are constantly taking shots at the regional series, on the regional series message forums......?

I am not taking shots at ANY club series though.....just asking the following question. Is it OK for club members to take shots at the regional series....on the regional series message forums, but the regional organizers can't turn the tables.....on the regional series message forums?

Just asking.....

[13inches]

We're all free to say whatever we want on this forum.

But don't you think it would be a little bit hypocritical for you to scold finboy for making his comments, which you interpret to be negative/non-constructive towards the CASC series, then do the exact same thing back towards a club series?

I constantly get the impression that the discussions on this forum are very much "us versus them" when it comes to clubs and the CASC series. There seems to be a lot of bad feelings, old rivalries and posturing going on that isn't constructive to anything. This may be the CASC sandbox, but considering how small this community really is, how many sandboxes do we really need to discuss this sport? There's only 1 each in BC, Alberta, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Quebec, and there's only 1 for all 4 Atlantic provices. Yet in Ontario there are at least 4 somewhat active forums for the sport.

[Marsh]

I constantly get the impression that the discussions on this forum are very much "us versus them" when it comes to clubs and the CASC series.

You're right. But it's certain club series promoters that are usually taking that stand. Usually in the form of 'The series and the rules suck for blah, blah, blah reasons, and you should be doing it more like (two optional comments here) 1-some distant region, nation or club whos events I attend one of a year, manage to finish second in a class and think is awsome (or) 2-my _____ club series in which everybody has fun and I manage to actually win because, lets face it, I wrote the rule book around my car.'

[tanney]

But don't you think it would be a little bit hypocritical for you to scold finboy for making his comments, which you interpret to be negative/non-constructive towards the CASC series, then do the exact same thing back towards a club series?

I did not take a shot at any club........ Please read my posts again.

[13inches]

I did not take a shot at any club........ Please read my posts again.

Just out of curiosity, what's the difference if I was, on THE REGIONAL message forums, putting down a series who have two members who are constantly taking shots at the regional series, on the regional series message forums......?


If you were, then you'd be a hypocrite. You've already chewed one guy for doing it. Unless you want to get chewed back.

Is it OK for club members to take shots at the regional series....on the regional series message forums, but the regional organizers can't turn the tables.....on the regional series message forums?
Its all ok. But when the pot calls the kettle black, everything turns grey.....

Just answering.

[finboy]

The mission statement has been followed.... We are building a competitive skills event and we are TRYING to keep it unique. Fixing something that is broken is trying to keep the series competitive

if you think the mission statement has been followed the last few years, and
is still on track...then I'm totally missing what a Regional event is about

Unique??? why should a Regional Event/Series be unique? let the club events be unique

A regional event should be global and viewed the same across the board
on both sides of the border



this Unique thing.. please explain more



I'm not the only one who believes the regional series is being run like a larger club series, some have expressed it.. some just stop coming out

I believe people have higher expectations about rules & competition for a Regional event..

if we were to host a North American caliber event.. are we ready?
was last years national event a success? yes.. no.. why then??




Last minute rule changes may drive a few people away, yes, BUT someone who states that they want nothing to do with the series, previous and now, that is bitching and complaining on a public forum isn't driving people away?
.....


i doubt i had anything to do with the poor attendance in 2006


people leave regional events with bad tastes in their mouth..

people leave club events because of other external issues..



If you've got something positive to add or suggest, fire away. If you have had no intention of coming out in the first place, why post your opinions? If you've got concerns, drop the Autoslalom Director a line stating those concerns.

I've given my suggestions, polled people about topics to draw out some dialog.. threw in my 2 cents like others


do the same.. stays the same

fire away Wes.. your input is welcome all the time

i think many people are watching what the attendance will be like for 2007
will it reach record lows.. will it climb back up.. will the attendance be huge

we'll see..


i hope its a good one





If your just interested in just your funky club series, does your club not have message forum of it's own? If not, maybe it's time to create one.....

Just my opinion.....

[tanney]

Ryan, I am JUST stating that certain club members constantly put down the regional series and then promote their own club series, in the same posts, on the REGIONAL message forums.

My comments were to say that it seems to be fine for club members to do that, but it wouldn't go over very well if the region turned and put down club series to promote the regionals..... on ANY forum. It definitely wouldn't go over very good if the Director were to go onto club forums and bash that club's series and then promote the Regionals now would it?

If your not interested in the regional series, why bother commenting in the first place?

There are some legitimate concerns voiced here..... by people who actually run and some that actually care about the Regional series. In my mind, they have the right to complain and voice their opinions (some, like myself, may need some lessons in proper forum etiquette ) in an appropriate manner.

I apologize if I ruffled some feathers.

[finboy]

..... I used to actually enjoy going to almost every event I went to but after I became the Solo 2 Director I noticed certain attitudes changing.



attitudes changing?? its the same players since you started..

the only difference people are older and fatter, and have less hair

perhaps the attitude thing is something you get when you are at a position for that many years..

being on any committee will do that... yes no??

[Keith-02Accord]

Can't we all just get along?

In Mrs. Lovejoy voice: Won't somebody please think of the children???

[finboy]

I constantly get the impression that the discussions on this forum are very much "us versus them" when it comes to clubs and the CASC series.

i don't think that's the case...

people attend club events for different reasons than a REGIONAL one


my thing is... there's a ton of tallent, awesome cars in Ontario

why is it sooo hard to get a ton of people out for 1 or 2 big events for the season??

get the peeps out from Quebec, south of the border.. and around ontario??


I wish we could talk about a big event.. where everyone came out ... something to remember... talk about

something that everyone in every car club would circle as a MUST ATTEND event

[Pete@Marcor]

This is what I'm saying. If I win in the miata, then somebody will argue that it has an unfair advantage. We'll switch to SCCA rules because of these complaints that our rule book favours stock too heavily. Then everyone with a blow-off valve will have to get a roll bar and wear nomex and stock will still kick everyones cans up and down the tarmac like they always do, but likely even worse since there is pretty much no CASC-OR vehicle that's legal for an SCCA class except stock and MOD.

Why are we cow-towing to the vocal minority when no matter what they get written in the rule book nothing they want to happen ever comes of it.

Sorry Marshal, I was commenting, with my tongue in the cheek.

My main issue with SCCA rules is that there is such a huge gap between Stock and SP. I personally feel that this is one of the major reasons that Street Tire classes have done so well down there. It allows a competitor to have some simple mods that are inteligent, to actually drive his car to the event.

[Marsh]

Sorry Marshal, I was commenting, with my tongue in the cheek.

My main issue with SCCA rules is that there is such a huge gap between Stock and SP. I personally feel that this is one of the major reasons that Street Tire classes have done so well down there. It allows a competitor to have some simple mods that are inteligent, to actually drive his car to the event.

I think you and I are on the same page about SCCA. I'm personally attracted to SCCA SP, except the egine mods are so expensive to be competitive. I think our SS is a great prep level and I think it will be bad for the provincial series to see it go.

[retro_mike]

I think you and I are on the same page about SCCA. I'm personally attracted to SCCA SP, except the egine mods are so expensive to be competitive. I think our SS is a great prep level and I think it will be bad for the provincial series to see it go.

On the upside, some cars that find themselves on the wrong end of this year's boost rule change and dumped into our current mod class should find themselves sitting nicely in Street Mod or Street Mod 2. I think with the way the SCCA rules look, most of our SS cars will find their way to SCCA SP and our current SP cars will be divided fairly evenly between SCCA SP and SM/SM2. I would also think that some current MOD class cars will come down a rung into SM/SM2 and of course the rest will end up in Prepared. However with all the subclasses in SP and Prepared, there may be a lot of cars running alone in their subclass, maybe we'll need to combine some classes together.
SM/SM2 will be nice because it should dump a lot of our current SP cars running in different subclasses together and make a very competitive class. Like s/c miata vs. modded Type-R vs. boosted or engine swapped civic vs. old vw vs. wrx or in sm2 sti vs. turbo rx-7 vs. Z06 vette vs. FF cobra type of thing. Could be just the thing to rejuvenate the non-stock class participation.

[JoeT]

On the upside, some cars that find themselves on the wrong end of this year's boost rule change and dumped into our current mod class should find themselves sitting nicely in Street Mod or Street Mod 2. I think with the way the SCCA rules look, most of our SS cars will find their way to SCCA SP and our current SP cars will be divided fairly evenly between SCCA SP and SM/SM2. I would also think that some current MOD class cars will come down a rung into SM/SM2 and of course the rest will end up in Prepared. However with all the subclasses in SP and Prepared, there may be a lot of cars running alone in their subclass, maybe we'll need to combine some classes together.
SM/SM2 will be nice because it should dump a lot of our current SP cars running in different subclasses together and make a very competitive class. Like s/c miata vs. modded Type-R vs. boosted or engine swapped civic vs. old vw vs. wrx or in sm2 sti vs. turbo rx-7 vs. Z06 vette vs. FF cobra type of thing. Could be just the thing to rejuvenate the non-stock class participation.

Sound like lots of fun, I'm in!! I never thought of it in that respect, if it consolidates lots of classes into this type of scenario, it will be the one to be in.

[Marsh]

Sure our SS cars will fit into SP. Oh they might be HORRIBLY, HORRIBLY UNDER PREPARED but they will fit into SP. That's a great idea! Lets make EVERY car in the series horribly underprepared, instead of just the mod cars and some of the SP cars!

[JoeT]

Sure our SS cars will fit into SP. Oh they might be HORRIBLY, HORRIBLY UNDER PREPARED but they will fit into SP. That's a great idea! Lets make EVERY car in the series horribly underprepared, instead of just the mod cars and some of the SP cars!

How about this, instead of just going immediately to the sarcastic route, wouldn't it be nice to comment with an alternative? ;)

Might be Horribly horribly under prepped.. Or the other side of the coin, opening up new opportunities for preparation to be more competitive. As far as I know, most stock cars are Horribly horribly horribly underprepped for SS... LOL

Hummm.. People might even get along if that happened. :D

[101rs]

On the upside, some cars that find themselves on the wrong end of this year's boost rule change and dumped into our current mod class should find themselves sitting nicely in Street Mod or Street Mod 2. I think with the way the SCCA rules look, most of our SS cars will find their way to SCCA SP and our current SP cars will be divided fairly evenly between SCCA SP and SM/SM2. I would also think that some current MOD class cars will come down a rung into SM/SM2 and of course the rest will end up in Prepared. However with all the subclasses in SP and Prepared, there may be a lot of cars running alone in their subclass, maybe we'll need to combine some classes together.
SM/SM2 will be nice because it should dump a lot of our current SP cars running in different subclasses together and make a very competitive class. Like s/c miata vs. modded Type-R vs. boosted or engine swapped civic vs. old vw vs. wrx or in sm2 sti vs. turbo rx-7 vs. Z06 vette vs. FF cobra type of thing. Could be just the thing to rejuvenate the non-stock class participation.


Actually, as of last year boost mods are now allowed in SP(SCCA).
I also don't think our SS cars would too badly compared to the SP(SCCA) cars beside being a little overweight and not having enough rubber under them. There arn't a whole lot of engine mods you can do in SP(SCCA) besides headers, intake manifold and ECU tune.

No matter what class i end up in, I look forward to the upcoming season, this winter has been much too long.

[retro_mike]

Sure our SS cars will fit into SP. Oh they might be HORRIBLY, HORRIBLY UNDER PREPARED but they will fit into SP. That's a great idea! Lets make EVERY car in the series horribly underprepared, instead of just the mod cars and some of the SP cars!

It's all relative, most of our SP cars as they conform to the rules now won't be legal in SCCA SP classes, so if you have a horribly underprepared SS car in SCCA SP, you're likely to be competing against other people who are also horribly underprepared. In fact i would argue that most current SS and SP cars are horribly underprepared right now otherwise they'd be winning PAX a lot more often, that is the point of PAX right? Like Joe says, think of it as an opportunity not a liability. The good thing with SS cars is it's relatively easy to reprep them for stock class or add those parts that will make it more competitive in the new SP which is much more restrictive than our current SP. There's always winners and losers when rule changes happen, we have to adapt to the circumstances. With SCCA rules, it looks like there's a lot more options for classing a vehicle. And once said vehicle is prepped to SCCA rules, you know you can take your car to any regional or national event in North America and it will be legal and competitive in the class it's prepared for. Not to mention those rules are written by a very professional body of people who are removed from any local bias or drama and will be as fair as possible to all competitors.

[Tashko]

Isn't the progression something like SS(suspension)->SP(suspension+engine)->MOD(suspension+engine+lightweight)?

I think it would make sense for:
SP - suspension prep. pts. are halved
MOD - engine prep. pts. are halved

But I'm biased and I haven't been around long enough to really understand the classing story. I wouldn't say the "new SP" is much more restrictive, it happened to nail me because I needed an engine rebuild regardless. No way I'm going to rebuild an engine back to stock when the 4pts were there to use.

So sad. I was hoping to kick butt in ESP this year. I think the solution for me will be to try running stock boost. At least I'll stay in ESP, but not kick butt.

[gatherer]

Tashko,

mod is an "anything goes class" so you can't really limit the points that class gets..

on another note I doubt you are the only ESP car that is affected by this issue. If the ESP cars are re-tuned it may turn out that you still have a chance.

as for solutions to this issue in the SP and Mod levels, I'd recommending setting the points levels back at 2006 levels and unchecking the box that allows the mod in SS .. like you said SS is about suspension SP is SP and engine mods and Mod is Anything and everything. if SS is truly a class about suspension it doesn't make sense to allow engine mods that can drastically affect performance.. I'd personally be happy seeing all ECM tuning removed from that level.

I remember 2006 was when we allowed camber adjusting devices in SS, because the powers that be wanted to make SS more about suspension work.

[Doug Phillips]

perhaps if 4 points covered all turbo, boost, supercharger, FI and related parts ( ie injectors)then it would be fair.

I agree that its not an issue for SS, a well prepped subaru can win SS with out turbo or boost mods

Tony

I was planning on trying to change that this year until the schedule got revised. :(

[Doug Phillips]

Autoslalom is about HANDLING more than horsepower. Why hasn't the FireChicken or Doug Phillips won the overall?

Well that would be because we suck and my motor is stock. :D

Way to point out thne obvious.:)

[Tashko]

Tashko,

mod is an "anything goes class" so you can't really limit the points that class gets..

on another note I doubt you are the only ESP car that is affected by this issue. If the ESP cars are re-tuned it may turn out that you still have a chance.


I'm not thinking of only ESP cars. I'm sure other SP's are affected to some extent.

As for MOD, I wasn't thinking to limit the points. I don't think that suspension and engine preparation should count for that many points in MOD class. It should build on the SP mods. Right now you can have a 15 prep. point SP car, add an anit-roll bar and you need roll-over protection. Once you start pulling everything out of the car then make the roll-hoop mandatory.
Maybe MOD would be more popular if you could go to 16pts without roll-over protection being necessary.
Anyway, this classing stuff is beyond my autoslalom knowledge. I don't want to go to MOD so I'll have to look into finding and reconnecting the stock boost "controller."