Toyo Tires

[Keith-02Accord]

Hey everyone,

Just thought I'd let you know about a new program Toyo has for users of the RA1 r-compounds or for anyone that is going to be buying new tires.

Check it out at www.toyoracing.com

I just got signed up and I will be getting a discount of anywhere from 25 - 40% off new RA1's.

[andrew1984]

hey, thats not too bad of a deal. :cool:

[roooo]

Yikes .. big discount. Could really come in handy ...

This seems like a very aggressive move by Toyo ...

[GR8 Ride]

This plan has been in effect by Toyo for a few years now. I've been a member for the past couple.

While 25-40% *sounds* impressive, it really only matches the discount most major Toyo Motorsports dealers are already offering (Tireworks for example).

It's 25-40% off the list price of the tire, which only the non Toyo R-Group retailers sell for.

However, you DO get lots of schwag from Toyo for signing up...millions of hats, a coat and decals galore.


Pat

[soloZ]

Did you do the racing waiver? I was kinda wondering if I can get the stickers and other stuff with out doing that. other wise I have signed up. I would like a hat I don't like having to see all those guys in there smug Kuhmo hats etc :P

[andrew1984]

hey ryan, did you switch over to toyo from khumo? or did you always have them toyos?

[soloZ]

Last year was the first full season on the Toyos but I never had any other R compound tires before that.

[andrew1984]

ok. :)

so you used the toyos.

how did you like them?

[soloZ]

They were great, I took them on the track about four times and they never let loose except when I went to far past any tires limits. They are amazing in the wet with just the four groves on thed center of the tire and no other tread (like at the TopGun shoot out at the DDT).

[Keith-02Accord]

Hey Ryan,

Sounds like a good endorsement, how do they handle on dry pavement?

[Taylor]

Here's the deal with Toyo RA-1's right now...

RA-1's are good in the rain but they're now more expensive than Kumho Victoracers or Ecsta V700's, and they don't grip as well...

End of lesson.

:P

[GR8 Ride]

Originally posted by Taylor
Here's the deal with Toyo RA-1's right now...

RA-1's are good in the rain but they're now more expensive than Kumho Victoracers or Ecsta V700's, and they don't grip as well...

End of lesson.

:P

Well, I'll dispute that point. They certainly are more expensive on a tire by tire basis, but if you compare tire life span to that of the Ecsta V700 in particular (the Victoracer doesn't come in my size, so I've never run that tire), it's FAR more cost-effective.

Getting six days out of the Kumho's (if that, some people have gotten far less) at $250 / tire (235/40/17) vs 10-12 days out of the Toyo RA1s at $309 / tire (235/40/17). The Toyo's are the better deal overall.

I've had no grip issues with the Toyo's, and the times I've driven on the Ecsta V700's haven't shown them to be any faster than the Toyo's on a well setup car, certainly not on the order of a Hoosier or a flat-out slick.

My experiences only, but as far as tire life goes, I'm sure several people will attest to their longevity (or lack thereof).


Pat

[ADAM]

i like the toyos as well...

[Taylor]

While they do appear to last longer. I think they fall off MUCH more sharply than the Victoracers though.

Bascially I see that if they're not as quick and they cost more, to be competitive at the same level, you're going to have to install something or tune something or do something that involved time and money to make up the difference.

Course I expect different cars and driving styles can amplify the differences in the tires in terms of longevity and grip.

I haven't spent much time with the V700's, though I have done 1 full season on New Toyo's and NEw Victoracers. I was at the same amount of wear at the end of each year though I think I may have managed 3 more events on the Toyo's than on the Victoracers. I think there's still some life good life (competitive life) in the victoracers, the Toyo's I'm only keeping around for a "rainy" day or lapping or something like that.

I suppose I just Solo 1'd the two tires I would see a bigger gap in wear. But as none of my events on the Victoracers were Solo 1's, that might explain the similar wear.

Either way, the difference doesn't seem enough for me personally to go to the Toyo's. I don't think the money saved makes up for the performance loss (perceived or real).

[RedRabbit Racer]

I ran on Kumhos, Toyos, Hoosiers and a few warmups on Hankooks last racing season.

I'd rate the Toyos as the best all round value for people using their own money. good grip wet and dry and wears well.

Hoosiers best dry grip with a very short life and expensive. The Kumhos were a big disappointment in grip and wear. The Hankooks were formula car takeoffs. They got stickier after a few laps and free is the right price.

[Dave]

I agree with Graham and Pat if we're talking about lapping, Solo 1 or road racing. For Solo 2, which is I suspect where Taylor is coming from, the story is a bit different.

From my Solo 1/lapping day perspective, I've run Toyo, Kumho, and Yokohama r-compounds on my Civic and I'll take the Toyos hands down in terms of consistent performance, durability, and overall value. I found the Kumho Victoracers to have a touch more grip for a couple weekends, but they then dropped off very quickly and became lapping day only tires. On the other hand, I ran one set of Toyos for a full Solo 1 season on my 3000 lbs Prelude and then another set on my 2000 lbs Civic and in both cases the RA-1's were extremely consistent in performance throughout their tread life, right down to the cord. The Yokohama 032R's Geo and I ran at the OTC and then later at a few Solo 1 events were pretty darn good, actually much better than I was expecting given my earlier experiences with them on a friend's car that I drove at Shannonville a few years ago, but they didn't have the ultimate grip of the Toyo, they are actually narrower than the Toyos in the same size, but they do have excellent wet performance and long tread life like the Toyos. It'll be interesting to see how the new soft compound (SC) Yoko 032R's grip and what sort of durability they have.

Anyway, in my experience the Toyos are an amazing value given how long they last and how consistently high their performance is. But unfortunately Toyo isn't a Solo 1 sponsor these days, so I may run Yokohamas unless I can muster up the cash to run in the Touring GT Challenge, which is sponsored by Toyo and in which case I'll obviously be running them.

[rainman]

What Dave said:D

My own Solo 1 perspective is based on running Toyos for a couple years and Kumho's for the last two years. The V700 is a great tire, however I found it had about 75% of the life of an RA-1. The Ecsta V700's I ran in the latter part of this past season had grip equivalent to the older V700 but also only had 50% of it's lifetime - this sucked huge. The other thing to keep in mind is that the Kumho's will lose their stick in dramatic fashion - no falling off gradually. It just seems to happen all of a sudden unlike the RA-1's which will maintian a very good level of grip until they are corded.

Toyo RA-1's are very good VALUE - they can be a competitive tire that will outlast many other R-compounds on the market.

Oh yeah, they have been in my experience a FANTASTIC rain tire.

[Taylor]

Well I dunno if that's where I'm coming from but that's at least where most of the wear has been on both sets of tires. I did run a half-used set of Toyos during 7 Solo 1 events in my first year but I didn't really have anything to compare them to at the time.

I did however do 2 days at Mosport (200+kms) on new Victoracers as the wear and grip was great. Course my only previous experience at Mosport was on street tires (S-02's).

And actually now that I think about it, the Toyo's on the S2000 were new, I only ran 4 solo 1 events with them on, the rest of the Solo 1 events were on different Toyos on a different car. Also since I didn't do the first BMW school on the toyo's, I think the amount of wear and tear was heavier on the Kumho's than the Toyo's.. so I dunno I'd wave the durability stick around too much, course this applies to my car and my driving.

Dave (and I suspect "RedRabbit") run FWD cars. Dynamics of the vehicles are fairly different.

I guess I could say the Toyo's seemed consistent until they got near bald, I haven't taken them to the cords, but I've taken them to "barely visible stripes" and felt they had fallen off. Perhaps it was my care for them in the garage (though no different than my Kumhos) but they really felt like I was driving on rocks at the end of the 2001 season on the Toyos.

Actually.. the toyo's were pretty crumby for the first couple events (full tread), course I was also brand new to the sport too, but it's probably fairly safe to say they need a little breaking in. *shrug* anyhow, just an opinion, though the wear part is pretty factual. I did more driving on the Kumho's than the Toyo's to reach the same level of visible wear.

But yeah, majority wear was Solo 2, so perhaps the toyo's just need more heat in them, if they really are a more durable tire it's not wholly unrealistic to expect them to have a harder compound (though they start off with twice the tread depth) and I would expect a harder compound needs more heat in them to really work.

[Dave]

The Toyos definitely need more heat (and more pressure) in them in my experience. Most people who wear the Toyos out fast are running their tire pressures way too low. I've found the recommended 40-44 psi to be considerably too low. I run mine near 50 psi now and find the grip and wear characteristics to be much better once they heat up.

[Taylor]

Yeah I did find out that first year, especially with the Toyo's on the Prelude, that I had to really pump those suckers up... high 40's cold I think I was running.

[ADAM]

i run my toyos cold at 35psi and have no wear issues..they heat up to about 40psi

they wear clean across the whole tire..and no chunking...or any weird wear...

[Dave]

Adam, that would help explain why your car is so mushy in the corners...not to mention the progressive springs and mild shocks you used to run. Your whole world has changed with the Tein RA's we bolted up to your turboed fire hazzard of a car :) Be prepared to spend some time sorting out shock settings and tire pressure!

[andrew1984]

is the toyo tire ok for the street?

casual driving - not like the way cops drive.

[Taylor]

Originally posted by andrew1984
is the toyo tire ok for the street?

casual driving - not like the way cops drive.

RA-1's? Well yes and no..

It's legal to drive on the street with them, but if you have the storage capacity (and extra wheels) to mount them at events, I wouldn't drive too far with them on.

That said, I've made a number of trips to Mosport from Mississauga with my R's on... though none in the rain ..err wait.. yes I did, drove the MR2 on R's to Cayuga one weekend (left my streets at the track the day before then it rained)...scary experience let me tell you. I will never do that again. Thank goodness it wasn't the 401, especially with the ruts in the pavement just past Ajax.

So bascially, it's all good, do what you gotta do, it's just not recommended.

[ADAM]

i love the toyos on the street..i can unload with all of my power with them with very little wheel spin... they are awesome street tires...

[alexb]

Dave,
In Adams defence,35-36 cold is where i start at.
And on a hot day i will come off the track at 46.
I managed 700 km on one set of Toyo Ra1 last year.
Mind you the last day of Solo 1 they were pooched.
But that was probably due to the fact Krispy was co-driving.;)

[ADAM]

ha ha...see head hada honda weasel..i am not the only one :)

[alexb]

My apolliges to all HADA members for defending Adam.
OH wait,he is a MEMBER!
And has a thick skin.

[ADAM]

the enemy within :)

[alexb]

From what i have been told the TRUE enemy is AC on a road trip to Detroit!

Its all about mass destruction!

[andrew1984]

Originally posted by ADAM
i love the toyos on the street..i can unload with all of my power with them with very little wheel spin... they are awesome street tires...


what kind of power are we talking about? what width tire?


i like the idea of khumo's because of the price/availability.

maybe even the pirelli's but they are more $$$$$$$.

pirelli has a new tire, called p zero corsa. it looks very mean, though it is still unkown if it out preforms the p zero c.

any thoughts?

[ADAM]

245/50/16's

with 297ftlbs torque

[rainman]

Originally posted by alexb
From what i have been told the TRUE enemy is AC on a road trip to Detroit!

Its all about mass destruction!

Yes, I have weapons of mass destruction...so what are ya gonna do about it? I only used them to keep the peace in the van :rolleyes:

[andrew1984]

Originally posted by ADAM
245/50/16's

with 297ftlbs torque


come on.... i thought you said ALOT of power?:p

[ADAM]

he he...its enough for a 4cyl

[GR8 Ride]

Originally posted by alexb
Dave,
In Adams defence,35-36 cold is where i start at.
And on a hot day i will come off the track at 46.
I managed 700 km on one set of Toyo Ra1 last year.
Mind you the last day of Solo 1 they were pooched.
But that was probably due to the fact Krispy was co-driving.;)

I'll agree with that as well. As far as tire pressures go, I think a lot of it has to do with car weight, as I tend to run mine at about 32-33 PSI front, and 28-29 PSI rear (all pressures cold).

Tires heat up nicely to about 40-42 PSI hot, depending upon ambient air temp and the track.

I've tried running them higher pressures than that, and they feel a LOT greasier, and tend to go away much quicker. Dave, your car is probably sub-2000 lbs, while mine is a little under 3000 lbs (well, actually about 2800 lbs). It's also RWD.

As to wear though, I probably get the better part of 1500-1800 km of track wear out of a set of Toyo's. I can usually get a set to last 10-12 days, putting about 300-400 KMs on them on the Friday at a BMW Club school, and about 150-200 KM on them on each of the Saturday and Sunday.

I'm surprised you're only getting 700 KM of wear out of them.

Of course, I run them until they're corded.


Pat

[alexb]

Yes Pat ,700km
It is a a front drive vehicle.
Pluse the fact it is driven in a competition enviroment. Sometimes ,in that situation you tend to overdrive.Oh yes i am guilty of that
I have run about 600km during BMW weekends(schools).
I would say you have a car similar to mine power to weight.(guessing here).
The differance in tire wear may be due to the track configurations we run.
The big track at Mosport would be easier on my tires than TO motorsport park.
If i am wrong tell me to FO and i will understand!

.

.

[Dave]

obviously alignment has a lot to do with how long a set of tires will last too. I can only gain about 7 psi from cold to hot temps in my little 2000 lbs puddle jumper, so I start with about 42 front and 37 rear cold psi (depending on the weather and track conditions). These same pressures worked very well on my 3000 lbs Prelude too.

I think the wildcard in all this is driving style. I tend to run pretty high slip angles, which the Toyos handle very well. The Kumhos seem to perform better with a more classic 'slow in fast out' style. If you overdrive the Kumhos, they seem to wear out very fast, while you can drive like a rally hero on the Toyos and get away with it in my experience. Maybe that's why I like the Toyos so much, they're a very forgiving tire and I do tend to use my tires for braking more than I should. But hey, gotta be me.

With the Kumho Victoracers I ran much less pressure, started around 35 psi front and 30 psi rear. The Yokos seemed to like pressure somewhere in between the Toyos and Kumhos.

On my Dad's Camaro Z28, the Kumho Victoracers lasted 10 Solo 1 events and a couple of lapping days and would have lasted a bit longer if we had more negative camber. So on this big 3400 lbs RWD car, the Kumhos were actually a really good value and they seemed to perform quite well right down to the cord. My suspicion is that the Victoracers I got were a slightly different compound than the ones we had on the Camaro or else the FWD set-up combined with my driving style was just too hard on them. It's possible I cooked them and they never fully recovered. It's tough to say.

Point being, I think different drivers can be faster on a particular brand even though the general consensus may be that a different brand is the faster tire. It's also pretty clear that a brand may be quite fast and long-lasting on a particular car or type of car, while not producing such good results on other types of cars. I think my experience with Kumhos on my Civic compared to on my Dad's Camaro is a good example of this.

And then there's Hoosiers...

Cheers,
Dave

[GR8 Ride]

Originally posted by alexb
Yes Pat ,700km
It is a a front drive vehicle.
Pluse the fact it is driven in a competition enviroment. Sometimes ,in that situation you tend to overdrive.Oh yes i am guilty of that
I have run about 600km during BMW weekends(schools).
I would say you have a car similar to mine power to weight.(guessing here).
The differance in tire wear may be due to the track configurations we run.
The big track at Mosport would be easier on my tires than TO motorsport park.
If i am wrong tell me to FO and i will understand!


Well, as far as overdriving them, you have to see the level of competition that goes on in some instructor sessions!! I tend to drive at the better part of 9/10 - 10/10ths most of the time, so I use mine for all their worth as well.

I probably do about 10-15 days at Cayuga as well each year, and while it's not as easy on tires as Mosport is, it's still not overly hard on tires (SMP is rather hard on rubber...)

I'm guessing that your car is driven to the track, rather than trailered though, and I'd suspect our respective wheel alignments has a big piece to do with differences in wear.

I'm running 3.0 degrees of negative camber all around, and ultra-stiff springs, plus a full cage. All of which tends to keep the rubber in better shape than a more flexible, street aligned car.

I'm just surprised that it's so low for you...I would have thought you would get a more than that. I guess I'm just spoiled in having a car that's dedicated to the track, and setup for maximum tire wear (well, after maximum grip anyway).


Pat

[Chris P]

GR8 Ride,
Actually alex's car is trailered, has stiff springs although i'm not too sure whats his alignment is like.






Toyo's, They lasted one day on the cords and still felt ok, the next morning i went out and set the FTD on those corded Toyo's in the WET before we moved over to the Nelson track(Type R's are AMAZING, thanks babz :) ). At which point it was drying up, the tires went off very very fast. On the first run i think i did a 56 flat and could already feel they were done, second run only a high 56, thirday run i only managed a high 57 or low 58's and at that point it was getting dangerous to drive the car. But whatever, they don't come in my size for the CRX. PS, if you buy them, get them shaved...........the grip comes sooner and i wouldn't be surprised if they last longer.

Hankooks, They are a very good tire in stiraght line grip however lack in attainable overall corner force. Also, they are not a consistent tire, fine for SOLO 1 but when racing or lapping for longer distances they go off after 10 laps or so, you need to slow down a wait for them to come back and then you can attack again. However that was more with the FF1600 car......... I gotta burn all my hankooks up or sell them. See what comes first. I also use these for street tires.

Kumho's, I've only used the Kumho Ecsta's for 3 weekends and can't really comment on them. I needed to get faster fast so i had to buy some Hoosiers. The kumho's felt good but it was the first 3 weekends of the year and the conditions weren't great. I plain on burning these tires up at some SOLO 2's or lapping days or something. The wear seemed decent but i only really had 2 good solid days on them(rained and was very cold the other 2 weekends).

Hoosiers, Well, what can i say..........I HATE THEM. Actaully its a pretty love hate relationship. The cost suxs, the grip rox. Actually i found they aren't very good in braking, you also have to be very careful to not flatspot them espicially when braking them in. They only seem to last 3 weekends of solo 1 and then they go off and to make sure realize it they also cord. However i've used those corded hoosiers for 10+ SOLO 2 events and they are still going. How great i can't really say but i want my monies worth......


XXXXXXX brand,
I have some 195/70/13 off my grampa's neon i use for the street. 500+ tread wear seems to be able to resist 4 degrees of negitive camber for daily driving. However they were starting to squeel around corners going slow. As a bonus it softens the blow of my spring rates(mmmmmmmm soft sidewalls). Then again i never take out the 60psi of air in the hankooks i leave on the back or the car 24/7, hmmm that doesn't make sense. Note to self, let air out of rear tires for street.

[Taylor]

Hehehe..

Chris is telling the truth on the Corded Hoosiers. Their continued appearance attached to the car at events never ceased to surprise me. :)

Style is a huge factor in tire life... My father went through a set of Kumho's in 3 events. 2 Solo 1's and 1 lapping day (where he maybe logged 30 laps). He overdrove the hell out of them, using them as brakes. I never heard R's squeal so much. And this is on a 3500lb car! Actually tires haven't lasted long on that car period... this past seasons set of Kumho's were scalloped at CNAC when we moved to running insane 50psi cold pressures in them to keep them from rolling over and to try to eliminate understeer.

Perhaps the kumho's were just the wrong brand for that car. At least if the Toyo's gave out under the overdriving he would have had to stop overdriving the tires. But the Kumho's just kept taking it...

[GR8 Ride]

Sorry, my bad. I must have been thinking of someone else's car then....

Is your car still street driven at all Alex, and what spring rates are you running, and how much does your car weigh?

I'm just guessing here, but the FWD piece might have something to do with it....perhaps being both drive wheels AND steering wheels could cause them to wear quicker than normal???

I would have suspected that a person could go for an entire Solo 1 season on a single set of RA1s, properly rotated and flipped. Sounds to me like you'd have a tough time getting through one full season on a set. Hmmm....

The flipside of course, could be what Dave mentioned. You can take two different drivers, with two different styles, and get vastly different tire life out of them, with comparable laptimes. Some guys are just harder on tires than others maybe....


Pat

[Dave]

to be fair, Alex often has co-drivers beating on his lovely Type R and his RA-1's. He's a very generous guy and often takes pity on folks with cars that blow up a lot. Suffice it to say, I've driven Al's car quite a bit the last few years :)

[andrew1984]

Originally posted by ADAM
he he...its enough for a 4cyl

is that at the wheels?

[alexb]

Pat
It is not street driven,trailer to track only.
Spring rates are about 600 front 850 rear.
No alignment or camber dialed in.(ran out of money)
Completely stripped for cage (ran out of money)
My seat alone was $900.
Hope to have all this corrected this year but (have no money).
Notice a pattern:(
Oh yeah, i am guessing around 2400-2500 lbs.
I thought 700km a set was pretty good.

But you are probably right.Once i get some adjustable a-arms and a proper alignment i should be able to come closer to youre mileage.

By the way
I am fairly easy on wear items.It is the wankers i feel sorry for and alow to drive my car when they break theirs that cause me grief;)

[GR8 Ride]

See Alex, NOW I know what your problem is.

Your tire wear would be excellent, if not for letting Pratte drive your car every now and then.

1 Dave Pratte mile = 100 *real* track miles :)

It's those OTC guys.....something about burning up as much rubber as possible in one week.


Speaking of which Dave, I've been meaning to ask you some questions about the OTC. This year I'm too late (and WAY too broke), but next year I'm thinking of running in the OTC. Any recommendations based on your experience?


Seriously though, your car is sprung similarly to mine, given the weight difference (650 and 900 for my own spring rates, and my car is about 300 lbs heavier).

I'd suspect your wheel alignment is the biggest cause of tire wear issues. I used to burn up Yok A032Rs prior to having the proper camber plates installed, and many runs testing various camber settings to see what gave me good wear (which is now 3 degrees negative all around).

As to *No Money* mod, yeah, I can feel that one. I've been riding the "High Tech Wreck" for the past two years, and a steady downhill slide of income earning has been brutal. The only mod I can afford this year is gas!


Pat

[alexb]

Pat
The only reason i allow Dave P. to share my car is because he is fun to cuddle with!;)

[Chris P]

well i know he is talking about me now.......

[Dave]

Pat, the OTC was a hell of an experience even though we really only ran strong for a couple of days before the engine let go. If I was to do it again, here's a list of what I'd do differently (and I do plan to go again someday, but not until I can afford to do everything on this list):

1. must have a tow vehicle and trailer (preferrably enclosed for safety at hotels and such) - driving the race car across the continent is too much work and it's hard on the car. We had to try to re-align the suspension for race use and then highway use, which was a constant pain in the ass, plus we swapped the suspension in and out for ride comfort and ground clearance. All this could be avoided with a proper tow set-up, plus we'd have room for a lot more spare parts.

2. protect the engine at all costs - I didn't get the oil cooler hooked up properly, which would have been a nice safety item given the heat out there in the desert, nor did I have a baffled oil pan or accusump. In retrospect, I'd want all three of these items in place and working perfectly before heading West.

3. Be prepared for all types of mechanical failure - we brought what replacement parts we could stuff into our cars, but because of space limitations and a lack of replacement parts in general we didn't have our asses covered as well as we should have. There's no way I'd drive across the continent again unless I knew I could keep the car running strong for 7 days in a row. Ideally, I'd like to have a full replacement drivetrain or very close to it to take with me.

4. Shade - it's hot and sunny all the time out there! If you don't have a good sized canopy, you'll defiinitely need one. You'll have a cooked brain if you don't have shade, and driving on tracks you don't know with a baked brain is not a good combo. We ended up buying a 10x10' canopy while in Lancaster (near Willow Springs Raceway) because we were so crispy after the first couple days we couldn't take it any more.

5. Book early - if you can commit the cash early, you will get a discount by registering for the event before the new year. It's also a very good idea to book all your hotel reservations well ahead of time since all the closest hotels (to the tracks) fill up fast. Camping at the track is an option and will obviously save some money, but with limited storage space hauling camping equipment for 3 people wasn't really an option for us, not to mention having a comfortable bed and a hot shower every night is a real bonus.

I could go on, but I think that covers the basics. Once I've got items 1 thru 3 covered, I'll go back and give the OTC another try, though I have to admit that I'm thinking I'd like to give Targa Newfoundland a try, so that may end up being my next big motorsports adventure. Supporting a Canadian event like Targa Newfoundland is very appealing and it does sound like a very fun and unique experience, not to mention it's closer to home and I get to spend Canadian dollars instead of American dollars and see a part of this great country I've never seen before.

So many options, so little money...

Dave