Williams Brake pads...

[GR8 Ride]

So, the season is nearly upon us, and I'm just wondering if anyone has stepped up to the plate and ordered / purchased a set of the WPFRI race pads yet?

Anybody?


I'm probably going to make the call by the end of this week, and order some. Just wondering what people have thought so far.



Thanks,



Pat

[ScotcH]

I was wondering the same thing ... Any real-world experience with these? Also, which part would you reccomend for Solo 1? The WPFSI mentions Solo 1, but it's also a street part, which seems to be a compromise. On the other hand, the WPF1 seems to be a bit too race oriented, if there is such a thing. Any suggestions?

[Rob McAuley]

I've ordered the WPF1s, and hope to get them at the Open House - just in time for the Raven/BMW events.

William told me they now have a 2 week backlog due to Performance World sales.

I'll post something as soon as I've tried them.

[GR8 Ride]

Has anybody had any luck in dealing with Williams on this yet?

I tried ordering a set of pads today, and they're now telling me that they won't sell pads for a BMW (no reason given).

This, after I have quotes from them on prices for my pad sizes from 2 months ago....

Any idea what's going on?

Bill, are you on here somewhere?



Thanks,


Pat

[Chris91GT]

I will have a set of WPFRI F1 pads at Shannonville the 10th and 11th.

[ScotcH]

I ordered a set last week ... should be here in a few days, and I'll also be running them on the 10-11th

[Rob McAuley]

A quick review...

First, thanks to William himself who drove to Burlington to drop off my order - front & rear pads plus 2 sets of front rotors.

We were running at Shannonville in the snow, and the track varied between moist and dry - never too wet. It was quite cold though.

Stopping was great. Good feel, easy to modulate. They may not have the initial bite of a Hawk Blue, but felt better than the Carbotechs I tried last year.

I ran into problems about 3 laps in. My brake fluid boiled and I ended up with a very spongy pedal. The fluid had been changed about 2 months ago, and I was running AP 5.1, which I believe I've run for the past few years.

I went back out after bleeding the brakes, and had the same problem. I wasn't going to throw away the day though, so I stayed out and went easy on the brakes - gentle braking going into the corners kept the temperatures down, and I was able to maintain pedal feel.

I probably got in about 2 hours of lapping over the course of the day. At the end of the day I was a bit surprised at the wear. The pads were about 50% consumed. I'm not sure if this is normal wear, but it was more than I was expecting. Rotor wear was negligable - unlike Hawk Blues.

Clean up was a breeze. The dust just wiped up with a bit of water. No sign of corrosion or other messes.

I'll be out with them at the school - with AP600 brake fluid, and we'll see how they work. If I still have problems, I may be looking for brake ducting kit.

[LateApex]

That doesn't sound too encouraging at all....

Super-cool air temperatures, fresh brake fluid, but boiled fluid after 3 laps, and 50% wear after 2 hours of total running time?

Interested to hear what others have to say after their first time out.

I heard from a friend who ordered pads/rotors that Williams also swears by cross-drilled rotors for track applications- very curious recommendation to say the least.

Jury's still out by the looks of it.....

Jordan

[GR8 Ride]

I'll agree, it doesn't sound encouraging at all either.

That, combined with the fact that they wouldn't sell me pads the other day because I drive a BMW (???), and that Bill Dixon was going to call me to confirm which pads I want....(a call I have not received, though I've been waiting for three days).

At the moment, I'm inclined to stay away from the Williams stuff....sounds like it's not the panacea they made it out to be two months ago...

Maybe I'll stick with PF-97s after all....



Pat

[ctenche]

Rob,

How do you know that you boiled your brake fluid? Did you bleed the brakes and see bubbles? That sounds suspect considering the low air temps.

What I'm guessing is that the pads got cooked and that's what caused the spongy feeling.

[roooo]

I have to admit .. I'm probably close to the least experienced person here.
But spongy brake pedal is caused by air in the lines (boiled fluid) .. and whether your brake pads are cooked or not shouldn't affect pedal feel. If your brake pads are fried, the pedal would still be solid .. but you just wouldn't slow down as you would normally.
Is that crazy talk?

[ctenche]

rooo - You're right. air in the lines (boiled fluid) does indeed cause spongy feeling brakes which is why I asked if Rob noticed any bubbles when bleeding the brakes. If he did, then the problem is indeed with the fluid. If he didn't he needs to look elsewhere. Because of the cool (if not cold) ambient temperature, I highly doubt he boiled his fluid. Rob's been tracking the car for a while and I have not heard of him running into this problem before.

In regards to cooked pads, my experience has been that all pads work best within certain temperature range. Take pads above that range for a long enough period and the pad compound starts to change molecularly. The pads loose their initial bite, seem to feel more compressible but still grip somewhat well if pressed hard enough. Visually, the pads develop this chalky white coating as evidence of the "cooking".

Again, I would start by looking at the brake fluid for bubbles during the bleeding process but if none are found, you need to look elsewhere.

[wpfri]

WWW.WPFRI.COM (http://WWW.WPFRI.COM)


Hi Guys,

It has been a while. I want to first thank Rob McAuley for his review on our brakes.

Since Williams in Barrie has opened, we have sold thousands of brake pads for the high performance user. The response has been quite incredible to say the least. I have taken the steps to sponsor one of your own, Chris Atkins, 91 GT and I will be working closely with Chris for any future pad development for your series. I am also going to ask Rob McAuley to be a sponsor, so all of you in the Solo Series can have a true evaluation of our products, both pads and rotors.

Out of all the Brakes we have sold we have had 1000's of positive responses to the brakes sold. Most of the praise has come from the Porsche owners, who have very expensive rotors and cars that weigh less than 2500 Lbs. Any concerns that we have received have been due to brake pad wear on cars that weigh 3000+ pounds and have cheap rotors. The Porsche crowd like the fact that the brake pads wear and not the rotors. The production crowd don't like the fact the brake pad wears, they don't mind that the rotor wears.

We have over 300 formula's to choose from and we carry an exact replacement pad for our competitors pads that agressively eat rotors and offer longer pad life. When we did a field study, the racers like the Hawke Blue performance but hated the fact that the pad consumed the rotors, especially the aftermarket crowd running Willwood, Bear, RUF,Porsche, Jaguar, Ferrari etc. for they were paying in some cases over $500.00 per rotor. I value the club members responses for you are the people who truly use the product for which it was designed for. I need imput not just on the brake pads but I would also like imput on the rotors as well.

This is a response to Pat at Solo 1 - Pat I apologize for not responding to you sooner personally. The reason we cannot supply you with your BMW order is you ordered too late. We are about 1 1/2 months behind on production for our current High Performance Orders. We quoted you approximately 2 months ago, but you only tried to order a week ago. I have told my staff we cannot take any more European (vehicles) orders because we have sold out of our 10,000 quantity stock. We will not have production for BMW and Porsche for at least another month. I apologize about this but the response to our product and prices has been truly outstanding. I want you and all the Solo members to know that I receive hundreds of e-mails and phone calls daily for me personally. My staff and myself try to respond in a timely fashion. The Barrie location is the smallest of a group of companies. I currently oversea a group of companies with over 250 + employees. The Williams Team is making a great effort for the customer (you) to actually get a hold of the decision makers to hear your direct imput.

If club members are not satisfied with the Williams Product I want to know, so we can correct any problems or concerns. I extend to all who buy Williams Product a gurantee for total satisfaction. We can offer you a more aggressive or less aggresive pad depending on your tastes. You need only to make the request.

Williams is committed to supplying you with the best brakes and rotors.

We are a direct OEM supplier and have a capacity of 1 million OEM pads a month.

Just so you know who you are dealing with, our group of companies ISO and QSO certified, have over 200 million in annual sales. Our largest facility is in excess of 1 million sq feet.

I look forward to seeing you at the track and meeting your group personally,

William:D

[soloZ]

Do you make pads for the Cavalier Z24? I was the guy in the white one at Mosport when you were talking to Chris.

[wpfri]

Hi Ryan,

I had a lot of fun with you and Chris that weekend. I was bugging Chris because our Integra, a Super Charged RS was beating him. I never got the chance to really race with you, but maybe next time.

I do have stock for the cavalier Z24.

Thanks for your interest Ryan.

Are you going to be at the track on the 10th??

Call us for pricing - 1-800-480-7390.

William
WWW.WPFRI.COM
:D

[soloZ]

Unfortunitly I will not be there I do more autocrosses like all the regional and all of the PITL series. In the past three years I have done about 15 lapping days but that was always on GM pads and shoes on the rear. I tried cross drilled rotors but they only lasted one year due to cracking, they were made by powerstop.

[ScotcH]

Well, my car is 3650 lbs ... this should be interresting :) I will be sure to have a spare set of pads on hand.

[wpfri]

Hi Scotch (AW),

We are just about to ship your pads and you are going to be fine with the formula we are sending you.

Regards,

Williams:)

[Chris91GT]

William... beating me? You seemed to be getting smaller in my rearview mirror! Must be the 9000rpm getting to you. :D

[ScotcH]

Originally posted by wpfri
Hi Scotch (AW),

We are just about to ship your pads and you are going to be fine with the formula we are sending you.

Regards,

Williams:)

Great! I look forward to trying them out!

[wpfri]

Chris,

HaHA! I'll see you in my rearview mirror on the 10th in a 4 cyclinder.

William:D

[GR8 Ride]

Originally posted by wpfri
Chris,

HaHA! I'll see you in my rearview mirror on the 10th in a 4 cyclinder.

William:D

Well, I'll split the difference with a 6 cylinder.... :)

If anyone is interested (side note, stealing my own thread...), Raven Performance Inc. is hosting their first driving school / open lapping day of the year at Shannonville (Fabi) on Saturday, May 3rd.

There are still a few spots open, and details can be found at www.ravenperformance.com

Price is $235 / student or $195/open lapper.

E-mail john@ravenperformance.com to sign up, or e-mail me if you want any further info.


Thanks,


Pat

PS. Again, thanks for the call-back yesterday Bill. You saved me from typing in a long diatribe on here..... :)

[Chris91GT]

Originally posted by wpfri
Chris,

HaHA! I'll see you in my rearview mirror on the 10th in a 4 cyclinder.

William:D



Naturally... that's what happens when you're about to get lapped.

:D

[wpfri]

Hello to All ,

I just want to Thank all the Solo Members who were out at Corner 2 at Mosport on the Trans Am weekend supporting our C5 corvette driven by Malcolm Strachan. I will give you a short recap of the race for the people who were not there:

On Sat morning we had a computer glitche that would not let the car go above 97kms /hr. So we spent Saturday and a portion of Sunday morning sorting out the issue. We reolved the problem at 2:00 p.m. on Sunday. Which means we did not qualify for the race. So we started last. It was the most exciting race of the weekend. Malcolm moved through the crowd with lightening speed by the 10th lap he was in 3rd place chasing Uli in his 935 Porsche who was leading at the time. By the 15th lap Malcolm was in 2nd place and bearing down on Uli. Shortly there after, Uli had an unfortunate experience and crashed his 935. Malcolm went on to win the race. We are currently the points leader in Super GT.

Progress report on Brakes

I spent this weekend ( 24th and the 25th) at Shannonville, with quite a few of your members to get the results from our brake products.

Chris Atkins: Chris was running on WPF1.20 "Had a fantastic Day on Friday, brakes worked extremely well, hard pedal when hot, no brake fade, very little wear."Saturday Rained. Sunday - brakes worked very well, little to no wear, no brake fade.

Rob McAuley: Rob was running on WPF1.20 and found the brakes to simulate brake fade. I was there to experience this and what we discovered was it wasn't brake fade at all, the material he is running is too agressive for his vehicle. The vehicle is not heating the brake pad to a high enough temperature for it to operate effectively. We will be sending him the WPF1.05 for his vehicle.

Rob Smith: Action Front Racing - Rob was running on WPFS1 at Solo 2 events on his CRX. He responded by saying "the pads worked extremely well, good initial bite, no brake fade, excellent modulation, excellent release." Very happy with the product.

Dave Barker: Did not like the product at all. He was running WPF1.20 on his 2000 Camero. Could not get the product up to temperature for it to work. He told me there was no brake fade, but the brake would not bite effectively. We are supplying him with a less agressive pad ( WPF1.05)

Our 2000 CORVETTE C5 runs on WPF1.20 and will get about 3 races out of a set of pads running Mosport and Shannonville.

Les Iwata: runs on the WPF1.20 on a 2000 Acura Type - R, Les found as the hotter the pads , the better the bite and much better pedal feel. He personally feels his car requires a less aggresive pad because he couldn't keep the temperature up. We are sending him the WPF1.05 pads.

James Kelley:(Candy)1992 Acura Integra running on the WPF1.05 found the brakes to work extremely well, better initial bite than our Competitors, she ran very good lap times.

In conclusion, I would have to say, if you are running a street car, with or without slicks, you require the WPF1.05. If you are running a dedicated track car (race car) then you require the WPF1.20.


I just want everyone to know, that we are racing in the regional's this weekend at Shannonville in our C5 driven by Malcolm Strachan. I hope you can come and cheer him on,

See you at the Track,

Regards,

William
:D

[ScotcH]

Thanks for the update, William, and congrats on the win. Keep up the good work!

I look forward to trying out the pads at Mosport this coming weekend. I will be comparing them to PBR pads. Which material are you sending me ... the WPF1.05 or the 1.20?

[GR8 Ride]

Hmmm...and here I sit, STILL waiting for the pads promised to me....hmmm....

And I have an event this Fri / Sat / Sun at Mosport.

Any idea where these pads are at Bill??



Thanks,



Pat

[wpfri]

Originally posted by ScotcH
Thanks for the update, William, and congrats on the win. Keep up the good work!

I look forward to trying out the pads at Mosport this coming weekend. I will be comparing them to PBR pads. Which material are you sending me ... the WPF1.05 or the 1.20?

Hi Scotch,

We sent you out the WPF1.20 pads. These might be too agressive for your vehicle, so I will try and bring you up a set for Saturday of the WPF1.05 . I am racing at Shannonville with the C5 this weekend, so I am going right by there.

Best regards,

William

[Chris91GT]

As Bill already noted above, I spent the entire weekend at Shannonville, starting with the Ian Law lapping all day Friday.

The WPFRI.20 pads required most of the morning to properly heat-cycle. When brand new, pedal feel is quite soft until the pads are properly broken-in. I highly recommend getting some track time on the pads before passing a quick judgement.

By lunch time, the pedal was very stiff once the pads had properly heated up (within a lap of Pro). Pedal travel once heated is minimal, allowing for very easy modulation and great feel. The .20s are the most aggressive formula that I can possibly use on the Mustang with r-compounds. As my confidence in the brakes picked up over the weekend I found that I was starting to rapidly approach the limits of the tires into Fabi 1 at the end of the back straight. From 181kph I was able to brake just inside the 90m mark. On my final lap on Sunday I pushed another couple of feet and got a hint of lock. I'm fairly certain that there is more in the brakes yet, but I'm going to need more rubber to make use of it.

I had a good look at the rotors and pad thickness at the end of the day Sunday and discovered very minimal pad wear. The rotors showed no signs of grooving and had a consistent finish across the surface.

Overall, I am very happy. Who would have ever thought that braking in a Mustang could be fun? :D

[Rob McAuley]

Good report. I ran the Williams pads fresh with a quick bedding, then full bore for my first session. During that session, they felt a bit mushy, but nowhere near as bad as the earlier set. They felt stonger after each session. By the last session, they were consistent, with no fade.

I'm expecting them to be solid at Mosport on Friday.

Like Chris, I saw almost no rotor wear, and certainly no grooving like one sees with a Hawk Blue. There was the usual amount of dust, but it easily washed off at the end of the day - and that included the dust from an earlier set that was on the car in the rain on Saturday. Wet Hawk Blue dust would never come off.

The pads didn't have the initial grab that Blues do, but were quite easy to modulate - once they stabilize after a couple of heat cycles.

Thanks to WPFRI's Matthew for giving up one of his runs to install the pads on my car!

I'll get a full report out after Mosport.

[ScotcH]

Originally posted by wpfri
Hi Scotch,

We sent you out the WPF1.20 pads. These might be too agressive for your vehicle, so I will try and bring you up a set for Saturday of the WPF1.05 . I am racing at Shannonville with the C5 this weekend, so I am going right by there.

Best regards,

William

Thanks, William. Keeping in mind that the car is 3650lbs, I should be able to generate plenty of heat :) You, of course are the expert, however. I can report back all my experiences from this weekend.

[ScotcH]

Originally posted by Rob McAuley
I'll get a full report out after Mosport.

Hey Rob,

Are you staying the whole weekend at Mosport, or just the Friday?

Also, do people usually camp at the BMW school, or should a book a hotel?

[rainman]

Originally posted by Rob McAuley
Like Chris, I saw almost no rotor wear, and certainly no grooving like one sees with a Hawk Blue. There was the usual amount of dust, but it easily washed off at the end of the day - and that included the dust from an earlier set that was on the car in the rain on Saturday. Wet Hawk Blue dust would never come off.
.

I'm really baffled by the experiences some people have had with Hawk Blues - I've been using them for 2-1/2 years with no problems at all. Rotor and pad wear have never been an issue. Sure the dust will eat into your finish if you leave it on the car for a few days in the wet, but if you wash the dust off soon after tracking the car, you shouldn't have any worries.

Overall it sounds like these pads are worth looking at although they seem to require a somewhat lengthy bedding-in process. I'd like to see them used on smaller/lighter cars before making a decision but unfortunately we're getting most reports from rather heavy vehicle users.

[Chris91GT]

I don't recall any of the lighter vehicles actually using brakes at Shannonville.

:p

[alexb]

Chris, they apear to not have worked to well on Saturday!
To travel that far into the infeild.......:)

[Dave Barker]

As William has said my experience was not so good but it may be the combination of my caliper and the full race pad at 0.20. The aluminum 2 piston calipers on my car are prone to caliper spread when hot and it seems that the Williams pad requires more pedal pressure than Hawk Blues. This would not be suprising as the Hawks have excellant initial bite.

I found that the pads felt fine on the warm up lap but as I got deeper into the session the pedal would drop and become inconsistant. It did not feel like a fluid issue and pumping the brakes made no difference. Contrary to what William thinks, I think I was actually generating enough heat to start to allow the caliper to flex meaning that my pedal dropped and I started braking much earlier which allowed the whole combo to cool and the caliper to stiffen. After all this past wkend I won the prize again for heaviest car at SMP. Later ( between run groups in record time) I switched back to my Hawk blues and got a perfectly firm pedal that was very reliable which certainly allowed for some faster lap times. I think that due to the inferior design of my calipers that I require a pad with more initial bite and one that requires less pressure than the Williams pad.

BTW I also ordered their rotors which were excellant.

[ADAM]

give me a set and i will put some heat into em .... :)

[ScotcH]

Originally posted by Dave Barker

BTW I also ordered their rotors which were excellant.

Were they x-drilled? I'm thinking these will be my next set of rotors when my current brembos expire. Seems like a great price.

btw ... if your car is less than 3650lbs, then I will be stealing that car=pig award from you ;)

[ctheo]

Were they x-drilled?

You're better off with solid, non-drilled rotors. Do a search, I'm sure you'll find some info.

[Dave Barker]

Originally posted by ScotcH
Were they x-drilled? I'm thinking these will be my next set of rotors when my current brembos expire. Seems like a great price.

btw ... if your car is less than 3650lbs, then I will be stealing that car=pig award from you ;)

The rotors were blanks.

I am suprised that Honda ever let themselves build a 3650 lb car. Didn't think event the 3.2 TL weighs that much . I will be happy to get rid of that fictitious award.

[Moose]

Ah Mr Barker ... you will always be a "heavy weight" in our eyes

:p


Moose

[ScotcH]

Originally posted by ctheo
You're better off with solid, non-drilled rotors. Do a search, I'm sure you'll find some info.

I was not asking because I think they are better. I was asking, because Williams seems to recommend x-drilled for track use, and I was curious as to what he got.

[tomfoolery]

Do you guys sell anything compareable to a hawk blue(or better) for a 91 integra? how much please?

[CCCargirl]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wpfri
[B]Hello to All ,

James Kelley:(Candy)1992 Acura Integra running on the WPF1.05 found the brakes to work extremely well, better initial bite than our Competitors, she ran very good lap times.

William et al,

a number of people have asked me why a frowny face appeared by my name in this thread. Was I not happy with the brake pads? Was I sending a message? Absolutely NOT. In fact, I am very happy with the pads. The frowny face appeared because Bill typed a colon (as he did with his other news bites) after the first person mentioned - James - with whom he's had the correspondence, and then put my name in brackets. Guess what. A colon and an open bracket equals - you guessed it - a frowny face.

It is true that my brakes felt a bit mushy that afternoon, with a long pedal travel. I attribute this to James' hearty bedding in while I did my marshalling session, which cooked my not exactly fresh brake fluid. (Okay, okay I thought I could get away with just one more event on the existing brake fluid). Point is that even with that mushiness, there was enough brake activity to keep me out of trouble at the hairpin. The pads did the job.

My thanks to William who drove all the way from Toronto to Shannonville on Sunday morning just to bring me my new brake pads. :)

Candy ;)

[Rob McAuley]

It looks like I've got my braking needs sorted out.

William brought a new set of pads to Mosport this weekend, where I was running with the BMW Club.

The new pads were supposed to be more agressive on rotors, but I found them to be much better than Hawk Blues. They had a great initial bite, but without that killer brake dust.

By the end of the weekend, the pads looked great. No visible wear, no scoring on the rotors, easy to wipe up the dust.

William and I had an interesting dicussion over the differences between Hawks (corrosive) and WPFS (inert), and it sounds like he's got a winning formulation.

[haniforama]

Hmmm - maybe i'll try out a set on my lightweight 2600lb car (with me in it).

Hanif