'We will crush your car,' Bryant warns racers

[Doug P]

What happened was wrong and those kids should be in for some big changes with all the charges but I have not seen anything about the cars involved.

They could have been stock so how does this guy make the leap that anyone modifying a car is a street racer and they will take your car RIGHT AT THE SHOP before you event drive it.

Balance or probabilites? WTF? Innocent until proven guilty?


http://www.thestar.com/News/article/227464

Quote:

Likening speed shops that make street racers to illegal drug labs and bomb factories, Attorney General Michael Bryant is warning the cars could be seized before they even hit the roads.

Bryant threw down the gauntlet at street racers today in the wake of Monday’s Highway 400 accident, allegedly caused by racing, in which truck driver David Virgoe was killed.

“Somebody who’s putting together a … car for street racing might as well be putting together an illegal narcotic or putting together an explosive,” the attorney general told reporters.

“What I would say to anybody who is engaging in the illegal act of street racing is, we don’t need to wait until that car hits the road fully loaded,” said Bryant.

The attorney general pointed out that Ottawa and Queen’s Park have worked together to tighten up laws designed to curb street racing.

“We can seize that car if we have information from police and, just on the balance of probabilities, if we can establish that that car is being used for the unlawful purpose of street racing, we will seize it and you will never see it again,” he said.

“We will crush your car. We will crush the parts. You will never see it again.”

While Bryant declined to discuss details of Virgoe’s death or the case of three men charged in connection with it, he noted that Ontario prosecutors are making use of new provisions in the Criminal Code for street-racing offences."

[Keith-02Accord]

He will be receiving a very strongly worded letter with a copy to my MP and a copy to the Minister of Transportation.

On top of that, I believe CASC-OR should be making a reply to his comments.

[Nels996]

It' the same political ignorance when it comes to street racing or modified cars. Unfortunately it won't change. I've heard it for years. They always target the modified cars. What about the factory built performance cars? Also just about any car manufactured is capable of traveling 150kph +. Who's to say that the cars involved in the incident were modified.

Nels

[rpr]

Interesting. What about the people I see daily who are so busy gabbing on the phone that they run into curbs, drift into the wrong lane, never signal, and run red lights? I would argue they are as dangerous as street racers. Yet I don't see any hue and cry from the media over that.

[tanney]

Why, don't you know that anyone with a modified vehicle is a street racer? If you have decals on your car your a street racer.... If you have a seat belt harness installed you are a street racer.... If you have bling, your a street racer.... If you have pedal covers, your a street racer.... If you are driving your mothers minivan, your a street racer.... Everyone knows this, what's the problem?!?!?

He will be receiving a very strongly worded letter with a copy to my MP and a copy to the Minister of Transportation.

On top of that, I believe CASC-OR should be making a reply to his comments.

[miataboi]

While this is just a politicalization / public reaction to the horriffic accident / tradgedy on the 400... these facts remain:

A stock car can still do 200+ km/h

Provincial offences are all Guilty until you prove yourself innocent... look at the HTA...

He'd have one hell of a lawsuit if he destroyed private property without evidence of an offence taking place...

Therefore... until new legislation comes out re: aftermarket parts and lagality in Ontario... it's largely scare tactics and politics.

They can charge you with whatever they want... but like everything... it's all in how it's enforced.

Honestly... regardless of what your car looks like on the roads... as long as you don't drive like an a-hole or speed excessively... I think you're generally ok... and that's what the laws are INTENDED for anyhow..

Still... some "constructive feedback" and education about OUR sport would be a good thing... CASC... let's engage them and help educate!

[J.C.]

Interesting. What about .... Yet I don't see any hue and cry from the media over that.

That does not sell papers. Its all about the money and politics. Ask yourself what new expenditures have been created from all this hype and what other concerns society has that are now being overlooked.

[miataboi]

to save lives... all you need to focus on, is seatbelts, drinking and driving and cell-phones.

[FastFox]

and driving training....not testing but actual hands on training.

[Steve Moore]

Sorry to disagree guys, but speed enforcement is our biggest problem out there right now. Too many people just driving too damn fast, I have people passing me in a fully marked suburban doing 20-30 km/h over every day. More marked police cruisers on patrol on our highways, higher fines and automatic suspensions for anyone going more than 130km/h (regardless of what they drive! Tuner,Luxury,Sports,Pickup,SUV, treat them all the same baised on the driver's actions).

[Keith-02Accord]

Steve...exactly..."regardless of what they drive". Bryant specifically said modified cars are street racers.

But secondly...120-130 on the 400 series highways is not unsafe so long as that is the traffic flow.

In fact..I believe these highways were engineered in the 70's for a speed limit of 130km/hr.

[Rampant WS6]

Sorry to disagree guys, but speed enforcement is our biggest problem out there right now. Too many people just driving too damn fast, I have people passing me in a fully marked suburban doing 20-30 km/h over every day. More marked police cruisers on patrol on our highways, higher fines and automatic suspensions for anyone going more than 130km/h (regardless of what they drive! Tuner,Luxury,Sports,Pickup,SUV, treat them all the same baised on the driver's actions).

I agree that the speeds are crazy, minivans blow by me a at 140-150 all the time. I admitt I cruise at 110-115 on the 400 series typically in my car and it has the ability to go 300+. I have no need to go any faster till I'm at a track, if I am late, plan it better next time. Maybe I'm getting old or just smarter but I think promoting safe use of our cars is the best approach. Encourage people that want to go fast to do it at an appropriate legal venue.

The speed shop stuff is a joke, you can buy 200mph cars at the dealer. 400-500+ hp is not just exotics anymore. SUV's have 350-400 now. The cheapest cars can double the speed limit now. You control your own right foot.

[P90Puma]

Steve...exactly..."regardless of what they drive". Bryant specifically said modified cars are street racers.

But secondly...120-130 on the 400 series highways is not unsafe so long as that is the traffic flow.

In fact..I believe these highways were engineered in the 70's for a speed limit of 130km/hr.

I don't think the officer would agree with you.

I disagree with Steve that speeding is the major issue on today's motorways, because even though I do follow the limits generally, I think they could be somewhat higher (But then again with drivers as bad as they are now, do I really want some of these people going even faster?)

IMHO I think speeding is the easiest issue for the police to actually enforce, vs tailgating and otherwise dangerous driving. Which are the more dangerous issues on the road but not exactly easy to catch and prosecute.

[Steve Moore]

Keith, considering the amount of traffic on these highways, the average driver skill and the average maintenance on these cars and roads I have to strongly disagree with you. There is absolutely no reason to be traveling above the posted speed limit on our highways, after all thats why we have one. Sure its a given everyone wants to go 110-120, but theres where we are getting into trouble. Now throw in drivers weaving through at anywhere from 130-180km/h and maybe a few transport trucks carrying thousands of pounds of cargo,its a recipe for disaster.

Ive been to too many of these high speed collisions, and SPEED is ALWAYS the greatest factor in determining if those involved will survive. Our highways are not like our race tracks or solo lots where those here on this forum enjoy our vehicles legally and safely. Out there, there are no marshalls, no fire crew on standby, no higher level of driver ability, no vehicle safety equipment.

Just my opinion, but an educated one based on 19yrs of watching from both sides of the fence.

[tanney]

In fact..I believe these highways were engineered in the 70's for a speed limit of 130km/hr.

I was told once that the 401 was designed to drive 80 mph in a car built in the 50s. The speed limit was 70mph but was reduce to 100kph in 1975 or 76 to combat the 70's fuel crisis.

I also disagree that speed is the problem. Without a doubt the biggest issue is improper driver training and TOO MANY DISTRACTIONS (DVD players, cell phones, eating, applying makeup, reading the newpaper etc.).

I was pacing some idiot on the QEW on my way back from Bronte GO on Sunday. He was scooping a Ice Capicino (sp). He was holding the cup with one hand and spooning it in his mouth with the other. Now someone tell me he was in control of his vehicle......... All the way from Oakville to Toronto.

[Keith-02Accord]

Steve,

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

There is a big difference between 180 and 130...a very big difference.

You get into the left lane on the highways and unless its rush hour, the flow is usually somewhere between 120 and 130. The problems occur when people whip in and out of traffic at 130 when the flow is 110.

If you were to get into the left lane when the traffic flow is 130 and you slow down to 110...who is more dangerous. The 5000 other people doing 130, or the person doing 110 who people now have to either slow down, causing thousands of others to slow down or go around?????????

I do not deny, I am usually travelling somewhere between 120 and 130 and b/c of the fact that I pay attention to what I'm doing..I've never come close to an accident on the highway doing that speed.

BTW..I think we've now jacked the thread b/c it started out as modified/street racing issue, not speeding.

[Steve Moore]

I did'nt jack the thread, I stated that we should enforce every vehicle, not just tuners (which the politicians want to do) and I said speed is the biggest problem, not racing. You've proven my point, you like to speed at 130km/h and feel the driver who is driving closer to the speed limit is the real danger. Ofcourse theres a big diffence between 130 and 180, read my earlier post again, I said right now everyone drives between 120-130, now throw in drivers weaving through at 180.

Drive on our highways doing 130km/h and dont be suprised to see flashing lights in your mirror. Oh and the "I was just flowing with traffic" doesnt cut it with US or the Justice of the Peace, hmmmmm I dont think it works with your Insurance company either, but hey just keep telling yourself that if it makes you happy.

Night all, stay safe out there.

[Keith-02Accord]

Oh, I know if i get pulled over doing 130 km I'll get a ticket whether I'm doing the flow or not. I'm okay with that.. that's a consequence of speeding. More of a revenue generator in my opinion but that's a completely different topic!!! ;)

I have often gone through a trap doing somewhere near 130 and not gotten pulled over b/c they know they'll miss the guy doing 140 somewhere behind me. In fact, I've never heard of a ticket issued for less than 20 over on the 400 series (city streets are a different story all together).


But back to our debate, if the traffic flow is 130 and you decide to get into that lane and force every single person behind you to hit the brakes, you are the greater danger.

If I get into a lane where the flow is 110 and I tailgate and constantly go in and out b/c I want to do 130, I am the greater danger.

I guess what I'm saying is "it's all relative."

Speed in and of itself doesn't cause accidents.....varying speed does. IMHO

[finboy]

the people in powa scare the poo out of me :confused:




-bring back photo radar... as much as it was a cash grab
once people got used to it.. the flow was better

everyone was doing 110-118kph, and more people left the passing/left lane open

to add a comment about speed.. speed doesn't kill or cause problems
its the CHANGE of SPEEDS and unaware drivers

eg. look at any race.. accidents happen in turns not on straights
go karting at formula... all the passing/rubbing happens in the corners


mind you.. i have seen a few cars in the ditch on the 401 on staights
with no visible explanation... perhaps they needed a nap or something

[Pete@Marcor]

IYou've proven my point, you like to speed at 130km/h and feel the driver who is driving closer to the speed limit is the real danger. Ofcourse theres a big diffence between 130 and 180, read my earlier post again, I said right now everyone drives between 120-130, now throw in drivers weaving through at 180.

Speed DIFFERENTIAL is the issue here, if we are talking about safety. Among the other distractions in a vehicle while driving, if you were to ask my opinion.

The problem is that our opinions matter very little in the whole scheme of things. We are not a large enough group to appeal to the politicians, but the awareness events that we do run help immeasurably. And, in general, the Police forces see us as a group of speed-crazed maniacs, and we get grouped in with the "Street Racer" crowd.

Also, if you were to ask this question of 50 people, you would likely get 50 opinions.

Do I speed? Yes. Do I think it is safer to drive 5-10% faster than the general flow of traffic than it is to sit in someone's blind spot for 15km? Yes. Will that hold up in court if I were to get a ticket? Absolutely not. But, that is the problem with our road rule enforcement system - it is easier, and cheaper to target speeders than it is to inform and educate drivers as a group, and make us all safer.

But, we all have to realize that, and drive accordingly, and hopefully drive wiser and safer.

And PLEASE everyone - this is my UNofficial opinion.:)

[spoonie]

i'm willing to admit here that i am probably the slowest on the track AND on the street.

i habitually do 95-105 on the highway because, frankly, i'm never in a rush. and i like to save gas. dial-me-boring.

I think the biggest problem on the highway - and i get to see it ALL THE TIME because i drive so ****ing slow, is left-lane bandits slowing down motorists.

the speed they're doing is moot. someone always has to do a 'pass on the right' using 2,3 even 4 lanes depending on the highway. it's commonplace, it's messy, and it introduces chance of errors exponentially with each lane- change.

is it possible to enforce laws we already HAVE? keep right except to pass? there's probably more money waiting for the province in left-lane hoggers than speeders in all of canada.

the accidents on the 400 at 88/89 could possibly (but not 100%) have been avoided if the 'street racers/speeders/aggressive drivers' could have just blasted up an empty laneway. i'm not saying it's right - but it's something already in the lawbooks and fact is, better traffic flow makes the roads safer, and, well, faster.

[tanney]

is it possible to enforce laws we already HAVE? keep right except to pass? there's probably more money waiting for the province in left-lane hoggers than speeders in all of canada.

Go get 'em, I say. The left lane bandits SHOULD be charged. I bet that about 90% of all road rage incidents are the result of someone using the left lane when they shouldn't be there in the first place.

For s**ts and giggles, take the 427 North collectors from Browns Line and watch what WILL happen as you go by Dundas. For your own safety, keep your foot over the brake, you will need it! Trucks at 30kph..... straight to the passing lane, they don't care about you, just the passing lane. Collectors on west 401 at 400, same deal....

I swear half the drivers in the GTA bought or were given a drivers license....

Driving outside the GTA is a much nicer experience. Why did I move here again?

[Crusher45]

I was pacing some idiot on the QEW on my way back from Bronte GO on Sunday. He was scooping a Ice Capicino (sp). He was holding the cup with one hand and spooning it in his mouth with the other. Now someone tell me he was in control of his vehicle......... All the way from Oakville to Toronto.

But Wes how fast was he going? I totally agree with Steve. Speed kills period! We all have to slow down and smell the ice cream. Our law states 100KPH is the limit. It is the law on the 401. If you are doing 101 KPH you are breaking the law, simple. Laws are their for the law-abiding. A lot of drivers feel they have the ability to travel at 130 to 140 on the 401 and they might have, it's the one at 80KPH in the left lane I worry about if they are not seened by the speeders.

Just as the accident was happening on the 400 I was on my way back from up north on the 401 near Courtice west bound. A little red something was doing 130 to 140 in the right lane as he approached a Transport Truck he violently went left into the middle lane where a SUV was attempting to take from the left lane. (3 lanes at this point of the 401). I was impressed that the SUV hit the brakes enough to let the little red car into the same lane. My whole point is there was no reason to be traveling on the 401 at that time of day doing 130 to 140. If the SUV driver hadn't notice the little red car at the last minute it would have been SUV 1, little red car 0.

I don't mind if street racers kill themselves in races just don't take another life because the next life they may kill might just be me or you.

[Nels996]

There’s not doubt that speed can kill. An unskilled driver can kill at any speed. The concern is modified cars. How do you pinpoint a street racer or a track racer?
This apparent information the department receives on a potential street racer, how creatable is the source? Lets say that someone contacts the police giving them a description of your vehicle street racing. But you weren’t Now how is that enough to destroy your vehicle.

Nels

[finboy]

if section 128 was so important..

why is there a schedule rate of speed vs. fine??

(14) Every person who contravenes this section or any by-law or regulation made under this section is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable, where the rate of speed at which the motor vehicle was driven,

(a) is less than 20 kilometres per hour over the speed limit, to a fine of $3 for each kilometre per hour that the motor vehicle was driven over the speed limit;

(b) is 20 kilometres per hour or more but less than 30 kilometres per hour over the speed limit, to a fine of $4.50 for each kilometre per hour that the motor vehicle was driven over the speed limit;

(c) is 30 kilometres per hour or more but less than 50 kilometres per hour over the speed limit, to a fine of $7 for each kilometre per hour that the motor vehicle was driven over the speed limit; and

(d) is 50 kilometres per hour or more over the speed limit, to a fine of $9.75 for each kilometre per hour that the motor vehicle was driven over the speed limit. 2005, c. 26, Sched. A, s. 17 (7).


they should do the same for failing to stop






on a side note... the hta has a few updates

eg. nitrous was legal before.. now it ain't

see section 172

[VERNA_47]

I'm interested to see what cars were involved in this accident.

I also suspect that it wasn't 'street racing' rather a set of drivers driving irratically. (Speeding and weaving) Something that happens everywhere on the roads all the time.

[Transamdriver]

It wasn't the speed that almost caused a big accident for the "little red something"! - it was the violent lane change!

"Speeding" in itself is easy to enforce - makes lots of revenue for the govt. It's very easy to wait on the side of the road with a radar gun and hand out tickets.

To Steve,

Where are the cops when the "lane changers and tail gaters" are doing there thing? I have never seen anyone pulled over for this behaviour, especially the tuner crazies and the Harley morons who are speeding most of the time and just think they can cut in and out, drive up the centre, use the shoulder etc. I have never seen a Harley pulled over for anything.

Can you get a ticket for not using your signals? My observation is that at least 60% of the drivers DO NOT use their signal lights! Do they not learn this when they take their driving exam?

Many speed limits are too low, especially in the urban areas and I'm not talking about school or residential areas. I got a ticket once at 3 AM going thru a deserted industrial zone, not a car in sight, for going 20 K over the posted 50 that should have been 70, especially at that time of day.

If you go to work early in the AM, most drivers are going along nicely at 10-30 K over the limit, minding their own business, and traffic flows nicely.

After 55 years of driving I have to say I have never seen so many inconsiderate, poor drivers. Many of them are from ethnic groups that have no idea of how to drive here.

Robert Barg

[TFB]

After 55 years of driving I have to say I have never seen so many inconsiderate, poor drivers. Many of them are from ethnic groups that have no idea of how to drive here.

Robert Barg


Do you mean the Woodbridge ethnic group? Or the Markham ethnic group? Or the Mississauga ethnic group?

I've seen poor drivers in equal proportion from just about every ethnic group, redneck whitey included.

[Crusher45]

It wasn't the speed that almost caused a big accident for the "little red something"! - it was the violent lane change!
Robert Barg

If the little red thing wasn't speeding the lane change would not have been violent.

[StewPiddass]

I think we've totally missed the point here regarding Monday...

WTF does it have to do with street racing? The cops and press need to be given a definition of street racing so that they don't abuse it so much. This was not street racing, this was a couple of guys being f'in morons on the highway!!! Both are completely wrong and stupid but I'm getting really sick of then lumping every traffic fatality or accident back to me because I drive a lowered Civic with a fart can and a big wing on it like those guys did in that movie that time...

I'm not sure what this guys issue has to do with the stock Mustang and Pontiac these losers were driving either...

[finboy]

After 55 years of driving I have to say I have never seen so many inconsiderate, poor drivers. Many of them are from ethnic groups that have no idea of how to drive here.

Robert Barg


you are my hero!!

[TOYSRUS]

IMHO speed itself is NOT the issue, it's speed differencial and lack of driver experience.( As previously mentioned) The 400 series highways are some of the safest in North America....the fatality rate is 4 times higher on subsidiary highways...and if speed killz why is the autobahn one of the safest highways in the world? Because of driver training. I have driven on the Autobahn and teh Autostrada in Italy and can tell you straight up, the 401 is a FAR better and safer engineered highway....WE NEED BETTER DRIVER TRAINING/EDUCATION, and hey, why not put electronic limiters on those drivers under 25?

[13inches]

why not put electronic limiters on those drivers under 25?...because they're the ones who are able to figure out how to disable it. ;)

[P90Puma]

IMHO speed itself is NOT the issue, it's speed differencial and lack of driver experience.( As previously mentioned) The 400 series highways are some of the safest in North America....the fatality rate is 4 times higher on subsidiary highways...and if speed killz why is the autobahn one of the safest highways in the world? Because of driver training. I have driven on the Autobahn and teh Autostrada in Italy and can tell you straight up, the 401 is a FAR better and safer engineered highway....WE NEED BETTER DRIVER TRAINING/EDUCATION, and hey, why not put electronic limiters on those drivers under 25?


:rolleyes:

Because then they will put it on ALL cars period.

[CobraStang]

I do not deny, I am usually travelling somewhere between 120 and 130 and b/c of the fact that I pay attention to what I'm doing..I've never come close to an accident on the highway doing that speed.At that speed, how many times do you get to schedule a close call, before you either back off or schedule a funeral (maybe yours, maybe someone else's)?

Also, how about easing up on the environment by reducing speed? My vehicle has a real time fuel consumption readout, so I know that the difference between 110kph and 125kph is at least 10% (for my vehicle, not necessarily everyone's).

to add a comment about speed.. speed doesn't kill or cause problems
its the CHANGE of SPEEDS and unaware drivers

eg. look at any race.. accidents happen in turns not on straights
go karting at formula... all the passing/rubbing happens in the cornersI guess you didn't see the Canadian Grand Prix! The worst crashes in racing start on the straights, and their speed may carry them (or parts of them) into the corners!

Absolute speed does make a difference. Would you rather hit something at 100kph, or 130 kph? But then, I guess what you're describing is the change in speed from 130 to 0?

[finboy]

I guess you didn't see the Canadian Grand Prix! The worst crashes in racing start on the straights, and their speed may carry them (or parts of them) into the corners!


i was implying staights.. as in durring the race... not at the START

where are most cameras positioned?? in the straights or in the corners??

[13inches]

Here's an interesting and more "real world" perspective from this morning's star:

http://www.thestar.com/article/227900

[Wedge]

If the little red thing wasn't speeding the lane change would not have been violent.

You can still do a pretty damn violent lane change at 100km/h.


It's not the cars, it's not the speed, it's always the drivers.

Attempting to solve traffic problems and accidents by targeting specific cars is very close minded at best.

[StewPiddass]

Yeah, they need to change their statement to this:

"Based on the talent and abilities of most drivers in this country... SPEED KILLS!!!"

[Keith-02Accord]

Umm yeah...if the "little red car" was doing 90km and the SUV was doing 80 Km...the same damn thing would have happened.

So, was it the fact he was speeding, or the fact that he's an idiot that doesn't know how to drive???????

[tanney]

Here's one for you.....http://www.thestar.com/News/article/227613

This guy was killed on the 401, not by street racers, but by an inattentive dick....... If he was paying attention to the road and not the car on the side of the road, I bet this poor guy would still be alive...

BETTER DRIVER TRAINING IS A MUST. The government will loss millions in license, gas taxes and other misc. income BUT OUR ROADS WILL BE SAFER!!!!!!!!!!!

[Keith-02Accord]

Yeap, that's called "Object..something or other" where if you look at what you're driving up to and passing, you will drive right into it.

Good thing the Nissan wasn't a modded Civic..I'm sure Bryant would have loved to blame it on that too.

[nitrowsb]

i'm willing to admit here that i am probably the slowest on the track AND on the street.

i habitually do 95-105 on the highway because, frankly, i'm never in a rush. and i like to save gas. dial-me-boring.

I think the biggest problem on the highway - and i get to see it ALL THE TIME because i drive so ****ing slow, is left-lane bandits slowing down motorists.

the speed they're doing is moot. someone always has to do a 'pass on the right' using 2,3 even 4 lanes depending on the highway. it's commonplace, it's messy, and it introduces chance of errors exponentially with each lane- change.

is it possible to enforce laws we already HAVE? keep right except to pass? there's probably more money waiting for the province in left-lane hoggers than speeders in all of canada.

the accidents on the 400 at 88/89 could possibly (but not 100%) have been avoided if the 'street racers/speeders/aggressive drivers' could have just blasted up an empty laneway. i'm not saying it's right - but it's something already in the lawbooks and fact is, better traffic flow makes the roads safer, and, well, faster.


100% agree! Except for the slowest on the track bit:D :D

[JT_TT_DS]

I just find it strange how our modifications make us unsafe. better tires, better brakes more predictable suspension. Not saying i should be able to drive 130, but my car stopping from 130 or having to do a high speed lane change at 130 is no big deal...my mom's van? or my dad's F150 loaded with all his tools in the back? ahh yea not happening very well, never mind the B-train semi. At our solosprint school the teachers put up a slalom and weren't expecting cars to go faster then about 100km/h thru it when my car and one of the STI's were topping out at 130 thru it. even the stock G35 was maxing out at 100. what would a minivan with 7 kids in the back do. I guess maybe i would like to see alot more of the work truck and the minivan cruiser pulled over on the side of the road for doing the "flow of traffic" down the road then us sports cars. And hell if I had the street racing mentality i would be driving like an idiot even if i was driving a huge diesel truck. Just like they say it's not the gun that kills people it's people that do, it's the same with vehicles it's the idiots behind the wheel. What did gun control help Canada....anybody? no i couldn't figure it out either.

that's all the rant i will do for now. but i hate the "race"-ial profiling...

--JT

[finboy]

Yeap, that's called "Object..something or other" where if you look at what you're driving up to and passing, you will drive right into it.

Good thing the Nissan wasn't a modded Civic..I'm sure Bryant would have loved to blame it on that too.



"TARGET FIXATION" = if you're looking at it.. you'll hit it

to counter this = look where you want to go.. not at the thing you want to avoid

[13inches]

Provide your feedback:
http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/feedback.asp

:D

[eg6ajk]

This is a typical liberal party law not go after the real cause but rather inmate objects. This closely parallels case of current tries calling for gun ban from law abiding citizens, being discussed by biggest idiots in Canadian politics: Miller, McGunity and Bryant.
Welcome to communist Canada - you are guilty, and without money you have no justice or rights. Just read up more on the last week's Jane/Finch raids, seems like all the criminals are out again, on bail.

[JOHNNYD]

I don't see see how this "WE WILL CRUSH YOUR CAR " is enforceable .This is just the government giving the general public the perception that their trying to do something .At the end of the day this will never fly . I think we can all agree that a 3 cyl suzuki swift is just as dangerous a a 500 hp Z06 in the wrong hands . Cars don't speed , people speed . This is a problem that will never be fixed .I'm all for more driver training , but everytime something like this happens and speed is a factor it will be blamed on the "TUNER" crowd .
Just my 2 cents

[Keith-02Accord]

Provide your feedback:
http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/feedback.asp

:D


Already done. I sent an email directly to the Attorney General with copies to my MPP and the Minister of Transportation.

[AndrewR]

Not just here!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19339955

[Keith-02Accord]

Except in that article...all of them admitted to Street Racing or were caught doing it.

[13inches]

Not just here!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19339955

They were not crushed for racing. To get crushed "they must prove that the serial or identification numbers on a vehicle or its parts are removed, altered or destroyed." (read: stolen parts)

The 2 may or may not go hand-in-hand.....

[Keith-02Accord]

That's true Ryan.

[Doug P]

I think we've totally missed the point here regarding Monday...

WTF does it have to do with street racing? The cops and press need to be given a definition of street racing so that they don't abuse it so much. This was not street racing, this was a couple of guys being f'in morons on the highway!!! Both are completely wrong and stupid but I'm getting really sick of then lumping every traffic fatality or accident back to me because I drive a lowered Civic with a fart can and a big wing on it like those guys did in that movie that time...

I'm not sure what this guys issue has to do with the stock Mustang and Pontiac these losers were driving either...

Adding to that Tod, the stupid statements made are not even focused on street racing but taking your car right from the shops!
Here are some quotes again.

"Somebody who’s putting together a … car for street racing might as well be putting together an illegal narcotic or putting together an explosive,” the attorney general told reporters.

“What I would say to anybody who is engaging in the illegal act of street racing is, we don’t need to wait until that car hits the road fully loaded,” said Bryant.

The attorney general pointed out that Ottawa and Queen’s Park have worked together to tighten up laws designed to curb street racing.

“We can seize that car if we have information from police and, just on the balance of probabilities, if we can establish that that car is being used for the unlawful purpose of street racing, we will seize it and you will never see it again,” he said."


If you are speeding, racing or driving recklessly, expect to pay, no problem with that. Balance of probabilities. WTF!!!

[AndrewR]

They were not crushed for racing. To get crushed "they must prove that the serial or identification numbers on a vehicle or its parts are removed, altered or destroyed." (read: stolen parts)

The 2 may or may not go hand-in-hand.....

I am thinking that our local guy is stealing the Kalifornia idea to get headlines.

[Doug P]

Here's an interesting and more "real world" perspective from this morning's star:

http://www.thestar.com/article/227900

I agree with each point except this one.

"Provide more organized racing venues. Great idea! But street racing has an illicit thrill all its own. It’s the difference between the organized school prom and the parents-are-away party. This won’t make a dent in street racing."

If more venues and marketing gets only a handful of people to slow down on the street then it will make a difference.

Most of the deaths we have seen have not been due to the organized street racing and many do not even involve more than one vehicle.

If other venues make a few people wake up and drive more sensibly on the street then it works.

[Doug P]

Related to all of this, whoever has the plates and names of the dicks that were drag racing at the COMP event should be making sure they get a warning visit from the police.

It might be enough to get them to stop and choose to do it in a safe organized location.

[Steve Moore]

Ok guys, firstly can we seperate the Politicians from the Police Officers. The Liberals are trying to get re elected and grandstanding on a hot issue like the recent tragic accidents on our highways gets them press. Senior Police Command Officers are Politicians, so they do the same thing.

The Police, for the most part are average guys just like you, some of us are active in motorsports and know cars quite well. We target the behaviour, not the car, but quite often drivers will blame the fact they were stopped on their car being modified. Face facts, we find a majority of the people driving like idiots are kids driving modified cars these days.

Robert asked, why cant a Cop be on every stretch of road and catch the tailgaters and people changing lanes. Well Rob, I wish we could, I agree those are offences that should be enforced. There's just not enough of us out there, in Toronto some nights we have 911 calls going unanswered for 20-30minutes, I cant speak for the OPP but Im sure they're in the same boat.

Thats why I said we need more Crusiers patroling the highways, most don't seem to agree with my concern with Speed Enforcement. Yet almost all of you at some point bring Speed into it. Guys the legal speed limit on our 400 series highways is 100 km/h. If you exceed that you are breaking the law, you talk about better driver training yet you cant even obey the simplest rule of the road???

Slow Down......Obey the speed limit, watch your following distance, signal your lane changes and keep you attention on the road and the vehicles around you. A while ago we were discussing in the Road Racing forum the problems encountered in the OCC fields with 50 cars. We have some slow GTD cars in the 2:00 min range and some fast GT1 cars in the 1:23 range. Obviously the SPEED differential (Notice I said SPEED) is quite severe and on a crowded race track we were seeing alot of close calls, even amoung skilled drivers. Most agreed we should split the faster groups from the slower groups to lessen the SPEED differential.

Ok lets get back to our highways, the Speed Limit is 100 Km/h for everyone, so we should not have this SPEED differential problem should we? Oh ya theres those who doesnt feel the law applies to them, they are except because they are better drivers than most, in their mind atleast. People are quick to bash the Police for enforcing SPEEDING, but our experience has shown us that you are the most likely offender to cause or be involved in an accident.

We arent in Germany, the 400 isnt the Autobaun, our highways see millions of cars every day, well beyond what they were ever designed for. I love the Ford Shelby commercial, where they uncrate the Shelby in Germany and the shipper asks "What you couldnt find a car you like in Germany" the guy replies "No, I couldnt find a speed limit I liked in America".

Food for thought, if your drivers licence gets suspended due to points, your Racing licence takes the hit too.:(

[tanney]

Steve, I am definitely not trying to pick a fight here, and I agree that speed sometimes is the issue, or more appropriately the lack of speed by cars merging straight from the on ramp to the passing lane...... DOING 30kph in some cases (as I pointed out in a previous post).

This morning, 7:40am, north bound 427 collectors, a Mississauga Transit BUS, (yes a big assed bus full of passengers) went straight from the Dundas on ramp to the passing lane (three lanes away) doing less than 60 with three lanes of traffic coming all at about 100-kph. Now I wasn't speeding, but I had SLAM on my brakes (I was in the centre lane). I rolled down my window with my horn fully engaged and waived the "magic wand" at the bus driver. He gives me the finger back, like it's my fault.

I was in the centre lane doing the speed limit minding my own business and a transit bus full of people cuts off three lanes of traffic, but since I have the modified car, I am to blame in the eyes of the authorities (maybe not all the police but definitely in the eyes of the decision makers).

Go figure....

[StewPiddass]

I mean I know this whole thing isn't really enforceable but it's just about as ridiculous as the fact that I'm also equipped with the proper equipment to commit rape so why don't they just take me in right now?!? Don't I have to break the law first?

I won't get off on a rant though... because I do believe they need to come down on street racers and do it hard!!! but everytime I have this argument with someone outside the community they ask me why I'm defending street racing... Which is when I tell them that the problem is right there. Public perception (thanks to many factors including but not limited to the media and police) is that Modified Cars = Street Racers! Period!

[Crusher45]

Steve, I am definitely not trying to pick a fight here, and I agree that speed sometimes is the issue, or more appropriately the lack of speed by cars merging straight from the on ramp to the passing lane...... DOING 30kph in some cases (as I pointed out in a previous post).

This morning, 7:40am, north bound 427 collectors, a Mississauga Transit BUS, (yes a big assed bus full of passengers) went straight from the Dundas on ramp to the passing lane (three lanes away) doing less than 60 with three lanes of traffic coming all at about 100-kph. Now I wasn't speeding, but I had SLAM on my brakes (I was in the centre lane). I rolled down my window with my horn fully engaged and waived the "magic wand" at the bus driver. He gives me the finger back, like it's my fault.

I was in the centre lane doing the speed limit minding my own business and a transit bus full of people cuts off three lanes of traffic, but since I have the modified car, I am to blame in the eyes of the authorities (maybe not all the police but definitely in the eyes of the decision makers).

Go figure....

Buses have numbers, report the driver. They take it serious.

One other point, can we all say photo radar???

[finboy]

cheap doable fix

-bring back photo radar it worked

-get more redlight cameras they work

-get more white and green vehicles and get them to deal with unsafe/modified vehicles, (nothing like having a cop tell you about legal tread depth when they have no clue what the HTA says)


longterm:

-these HVO lanes are garbage spend the money on making highways that reflect our population and how its populated

[finboy]

laws are in most cases a reflection on the state of society..

in one city.. they're talking about making a new law for the transit, making it illegal if you are not preg/elderly/disabled etc and found sitting in their seats

in this same city, they had to make it law to give buses the right of way from pulling out, because drivers would not let them in

[StewPiddass]

-better driver training
-harder driver's license testing
-better driver training
-harder driver's license testing
-better driver training
-harder driver's license testing
-better driver training
-harder driver's license testing
-better driver training
-harder driver's license testing
-better driver training
-harder driver's license testing
-better driver training
-harder driver's license testing
-better driver training
-harder driver's license testing
-maybe re-testing every few years?

[spoonie]

Hwy. 400 racers hit 200 km/h: police
Two American Corvette drivers have court appearance today

Jun 21, 2007 01:43 PM
Canadian Press

NEWMARKET – Two American men face charges after York Region police spotted a pair of street racers in black Corvettes speeding at more than 200 kilometres an hour.

Investigators say the two drivers, seen racing along Highway 400, were in "obvious competition with one another."

An officer spotted the speeding Corvettes around 4:30 p.m. yesterday afternoon and contacted headquarters.

Police eventually caught up to the vehicles and arrested both drivers.

The arrests came the same day Attorney General Michael Bryant vowed to get tough on street racers, saying that police wouldn't hesitate to seize and destroy cars that have been "tuned up" for racing.

William Casey, 22, of Wilmington, Del., and Brandon Edmundson, 23, of Peoria, Ariz., are charged with racing on a highway and dangerous operation of a motor vehicle, and had a court appearance today.

[Keith-02Accord]

Maybe if Bryant had seized their cars before they drove off the dealers' lots it wouldn't have happened!


Nail their asses against the wall. They deserve whatever they get if the report in the paper is true.

[finboy]

Hwy. 400 racers hit 200 km/h: police
Two American Corvette drivers have court appearance today

Jun 21, 2007 01:43 PM
Canadian Press

NEWMARKET – Two American men face charges after York Region police spotted a pair of street racers in black Corvettes speeding at more than 200 kilometres an hour.

Investigators say the two drivers, seen racing along Highway 400, were in "obvious competition with one another."

An officer spotted the speeding Corvettes around 4:30 p.m. yesterday afternoon and contacted headquarters.

Police eventually caught up to the vehicles and arrested both drivers.

The arrests came the same day Attorney General Michael Bryant vowed to get tough on street racers, saying that police wouldn't hesitate to seize and destroy cars that have been "tuned up" for racing.

William Casey, 22, of Wilmington, Del., and Brandon Edmundson, 23, of Peoria, Ariz., are charged with racing on a highway and dangerous operation of a motor vehicle, and had a court appearance today.


if you do go over the speed limit.. make sure there are NO OTHER vehicles around

otherwise you might be charged with something in section 172 NOT 128


afaik racing charges were rarely laid because, they are harder to prove in court.. the way Bryant has laid it down..

its all about what is perceived by the cop

[VERNA_47]

Just heard on the news that those aforementioned corvette's were "modified"

[Wedge]

I love the Ford Shelby commercial, where they uncrate the Shelby in Germany and the shipper asks "What you couldnt find a car you like in Germany" the guy replies "No, I couldnt find a speed limit I liked in America".


Whenever discussion topics like this come up. I always think of the Toyota commercial with the TRD Celica parked on the side of the road. An old man with a walker is walking on the sidewalk, stops, turns, and yells at the parked car: "Slow Down!"

That's a perfect example of how perception works against us. That actually happened to me once. Almost 10 years ago in my lowered, kitted, 84 GTI, I was doing 40 in a 50 zone in my own neighborhood and some guy on the sidewalk shouted very angrily to SLOW DOWN as I drove by. I'm like WTF? I wanted to do a U-turn and show him what fast actually looks like (but I'm not like that).

[John Powell]

OK Steve, I realize that police have to enforce the current speed limits, but here's a point for you to consider. I served 36 years in the former Customs and Excise and therefore had lots of experience with unrealistic and outdated laws. As an example, in 1959 the personal exemption from duties and taxes on goods for imported for personal use by returning residents was $25.00 for a three day absence and $100.00 for a one week absence. Enforcement of this limit worked fine in 1959 or so, but then in the mid sixties came the boom in tourist traffic, especially at airports, and smuggling increased with the subsequent nightmare of Officers being tied up trying to enforce the provision while not having enough time to devote to more serious civil offences, not to mention the criminal ones such as drug smuggling. Our Department wanted the limits raised to get rid of the nuisance offences, but the Department of Finance made the laws and wouldn't hear of it as it would be lost revenue. Eventually common sense prevailed, to some degree, and the limits were gradually raised and Officers were able to devote more time to more serious matters, with the result that the nuisance offences decreased and our drug and other serous offence seizures increased.

Now on our 400 series highways the speed limit is 100 Kph, but most traffic flows safely in the range of 120, and, as has been mentioned, these roads were engineered for speeds of 80 mph (130?) back in the fifties. If the speed limit was raised to somewhere near the engineered speed, a lot fewer police resources would be required to catch those "speeding" at 5 to 20 Kph over the current limit, and more would be available to catch those doing more dangerous things, such as improper lane changes, tailgating, failing to signal, having lunch or putting on make-up while driving, and other offences which actually cause crashes, not just make the results of a crash more serious. Now I know that individual police officers have no control over this, but wouldn't you rather have fewer crashes overall than the same level of crashes as is current which are a little less serious?

Just a thought. :)

[Wedge]

The Police, for the most part are average guys just like you, some of us are active in motorsports and know cars quite well. We target the behaviour, not the car, but quite often drivers will blame the fact they were stopped on their car being modified. Face facts, we find a majority of the people driving like idiots are kids driving modified cars these days.


I disagree with that last point. I do A LOT of driving for work. I average over 100km a day throughout the GTA and surrounding regions. I see a lot of laws being broken and lots stupid things happening.
One time I witnessed 5 fender benders in one week, all them were caused by someone not paying attention, and none of them involved modified cars.
I'd say it's about 50/50, whenever I see someone driving like an idiot half the time it's a modified car. That's hardly a majority. Percentage-wise, there are far fewer modified cars than unmodified. So, statistically, the driver of a modified car is more likely to be breaking the law. If myself or anyone else gets pulled over and ticketed for speeding, while driving a modified car, that's fine. I have no problem with that, there's nobody to blame but myself.

However, the thing I have a problem with, is being pulled over when I have done absolutely nothing wrong, being asked a ton of questions, and having the officer go over my car with a fine tooth comb searching for infractions, then giving me a ticket for the first thing he finds, just so that: "He can say he's done his job" - and I do mean "QUOTE", they usually do say that out loud. I can't figure out for the life of me, what purpose does that serve? Who do those officers think they are helping? How does that make the streets safer?

Sorry, this turned into more of a rant than I intended. Those are just some unanswered questions I've had for awhile now.

[Cliff96]

Now on our 400 series highways the speed limit is 100 Kph, but most traffic flows safely in the range of 120, and, as has been mentioned, these roads were engineered for speeds of 80 mph (130?) back in the fifties. If the speed limit was raised to somewhere near the engineered speed, a lot fewer police resources would be required to catch those "speeding" at 5 to 20 Kph over the current limit, and more would be available to catch those doing more dangerous things, such as improper lane changes, tailgating, failing to signal, having lunch or putting on make-up while driving, and other offences which actually cause crashes, not just make the results of a crash more serious.

This is part of the solution IMO, we need realistic speed limits on our highway, raise the speed limit to 120, set the photo-radar at 125 and stop waisting our policing resources on revenue generation. We need to use the limited policing resources that we to enforce the dangerous acts that cause accidents (unsafe lane changes, tailgating, failure to signal, talking on a cell while driving, etc).

Raising the speed limit will also help to decrease the culture of lawlessness that has become the new normal on the 400 series highways.
How many people do you know that haven't gone over 100km/hr? I bet the answer is less then 1/10th of a percent. If people have respect for (a reasonable - with consideration for road and vehicle engineering) speed limit, I would guarantee that other rules of the road would start to be followed.

Third part to safer roads is more drivers training/testing. If you have 2 tickets on your record within 3years you should be required to pass an on road drivers test, you fail=no license until you take a course and pass another test. Drivers testing should be mandatory every 5years, the amount of traffic on our roads have greatly increased over the last 5,10,15yrs. When was the last time you or a loved one had to pass a drivers test to prove their skills in our current driving environment? Most people took their road test many years ago and the traffic patterns and vehicles they drive are drastically different now.

Now if I could only get the people in power to listen - and make meaningful changes.

[CobraStang]

i was implying staights.. as in durring the race... not at the STARTThe big crash wasn't at the start:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GedIBP-VCmY

I guess you didn't even see the highlights from the race?

[13inches]

It might be a good idea to point out some of the FACTS, to ensure that confusion is kept to a minimum.

In May of this year, the Safe Roads for a Safer Ontario act was passed.

http://ogov.newswire.ca/ontario/GPOE/2007/05/29/c6377.html?lmatch=&lang=_e.html

Highlights include:

- Police can issue an immediate roadside seven-day licence suspension
and seven-day vehicle impoundment for street racing, participating in
a driving contest or stunt driving
- The maximum fine increases from $1,000 to $10,000 upon conviction for
street racing, making it the highest penalty in Canada. The minimum
fine increases from $200 to $2,000
- Courts can impose a driver licence suspension of up to 10 years for a
second conviction, if the second conviction occurs within 10 years of
the first conviction
- The Act also bans driving a motor vehicle on a highway with a
connected nitrous oxide system. Some street racers use nitrous oxide
to enhance the acceleration capabilities of their vehicle.

There were also provisions regarding drunk driving and lights used on police cars.

Further, on June 11th a new proposal was made to better define the terms "race, contest, and stunt" and clarify what steps officers can take when a vehicle is stopped

http://www.ontariocanada.com/registry/view.do?postingId=980&language=en

IOW, nothing has changed unless you get accused or convicted of RACING. All other laws regarding modified or unfit vehicles, and criminal code offences (dangerous, wreckless, etc etc) have not changed.

[Keith-02Accord]

"Driving at any speed above the posted speed limit to try to arrive at a destination ahead of one or more other vehicles. "

This is one of the definitions of a "RACE" in the proposed legislation.

Umm, I guess if you are doing 101 km/h and the car in the other lane is doing 99km/hr, then you are "racing" according to this wording. I certainly hope that is cleared up.

[13inches]

As for crushing your car...... this might clear things up a bit...

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_1169.aspx

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/Statutes/English/01r28_e.htm

[Maddog]

Since 1999, 34 people have died as a result of street racing in the G.T.A.Wonder how many have died from inattentive people talking on their cell phones while driving? I don't hear anything being done about that.

[TOYSRUS]

The big crash wasn't at the start:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GedIBP-VCmY

I guess you didn't even see the highlights from the race?

The crash happened during a "restart" at the end of a straight entering a corner.

[Steve Moore]

John, to reply to your comments, can you tell me what the estimated traffic flow was when they designed the 400 in the 50's? I am sure they never concieved the thought we'd have the traffic it see's today, several million cars a day. Secondly if traffic does flow safely at 120 km/h why do we have more deaths on Ontario Highways than ever before? Accidents are inevidable, I would rather see them happen at 100 km/h than 120-130km/h or higher.

I drive a mini van, I transport my two working dogs with me into work everyday. I set my cruise at 100 km/h, drive in the centre lane to stay out of everyones way, listen to the traffic report to see what hell awaits me on my 401/427/FG Xway/DVP Commute. I leave plenty of time and have a Timmies for the road. I get great gas mileage (almost 900 km to a tank) and I have an incident free drive to work everyday.

Apparently everyone believes it is socially acceptable to drive at 20+ km/h over the speed limit, funny thing people used to think the same about drinking & driving. Whether you agree of not, mark my words, Speeding is going to be HIGHLY ENFORCED.

There are too many cars on the roads, too many pedestrians and cyclist using the road, too many transport trucks using the roads. We as the Motorsports Community need to get that message across, if you want to drive fast we have the safe place for you to do it. You wont get targeted for your mod's, well scrutineering might get ya lol.

Anyway, I think i've said enough on this subject. For the record I dont like the Car Crushing Idea, I am for Fines and depending on the severity Suspensions and Jail time if the Driver is Convicted in Court. And for those out there who think the court system is unfair to you....you have no idea how far it is tilted in your favour. Look at the two punks who killed the cabbie last year, makes me sick as it could've been anyone of us.:(

[rpr]

I have to agree with the point about the speed limits being artificially low. If the majority of traffic (in non rush hour traffic) on 400 series highway is moving at around 115, which I would say is quite likely (more like 125 on the 407) then doesn't it make sense to make the limit 120 and ticket anything above that? I certainly have no beefs against that.

The other big beef I have is artificially low limits within the city. Brampton is the worst for this. They just expanded Queen Street to 6 lanes (3 each way plus centre turn lanes) East of 410 and the limit is 60. This is a mostly limited access road, with NO residential housing access on either side. Steeles is exactly the same, yet it's limit is 80. Guess where the cops sit with their radar gun all day? I can point to numerous locations like this which only seem to serve as revenue streams for the city, not as a safety measure.

Granted this is somewhat off-topic, but if the majority of the people are breaking the law in a certain situation, shouldn't the law be changed? Don't bother asking 'if the majority of people shot someone, shouldn't that be made legal too?', because it's a totally different situation.

Tom

[Keith-02Accord]

I have to agree with the point about the speed limits being artificially low. If the majority of traffic (in non rush hour traffic) on 400 series highway is moving at around 115, which I would say is quite likely (more like 125 on the 407) then doesn't it make sense to make the limit 120 and ticket anything above that? I certainly have no beefs against that.

The other big beef I have is artificially low limits within the city. Brampton is the worst for this. They just expanded Queen Street to 6 lanes (3 each way plus centre turn lanes) East of 410 and the limit is 60. This is a mostly limited access road, with NO residential housing access on either side. Steeles is exactly the same, yet it's limit is 80. Guess where the cops sit with their radar gun all day? I can point to numerous locations like this which only seem to serve as revenue streams for the city, not as a safety measure.

Granted this is somewhat off-topic, but if the majority of the people are breaking the law in a certain situation, shouldn't the law be changed?
Tom

Could not agree more. Traffic engineers will state that speed limits should be set at a spot where 80% of drivers will drive at or below them, otherwise all respect is lost for those limits.

The only time the traffic flow on the 400 series is at or below 100 km/hr is when the volume forces it to be slower.

Steve, per your comment about the volume of traffic and speed limites...then how do you defend 100km/hr speed limits in the middle of nowhere when you pass a car every 1/2 a kilometer or so?

[Steve Moore]

Keith, Im not sure I understand your question?

[gatherer]

anyone ever been on the trans canada through the prairies? that is one rough road, but at the same time the speed limit is 110 km/h... the road is no where near the safety features of the 400 series highways .. yet carries a larger limit... and don't tell me it's because the priaires are flat. the road has turns in it, and there is quite the sizable ditch to end up in on the side of the road.

as to the 401's 1950s engineering... well I think that that highway has changed a whole lot since then. widening and squeezing in of as many lanes as possible in the toronto area, most of the engineering and construction for this has taken place after the limit was changed to 100 km/h.. so I'll bet they've used that to reduce lane width just enough to squeeze another lane in ... remember the 400 series highways have had lots of changes in the years since they were first built. Even the 407 is having lanes added and work done.

[Keith-02Accord]

Keith, Im not sure I understand your question?

Steve, it was argued that the speed limits are artificially low given that they were engineered in the 50's for 130 km/ hr.

Your rebuttal was that in the 50's and 60's traffic volume was nothing compared to today. While I 100% agree with you (who couldn't) I would have 2 things to say to that:

1) Vehicle ability and vehicle safety standards have increased exponentially (though DRIVER ability has probably decreased a ton!!)

2) Once you are outside of the GTA, traffic volume (for the most part) drops off significantly, yet the speed limit stays the same. Based on your argument of volume of traffic, how do you justify 100km/hr outside of the GTA?

[Marsh]

I...snip...drive in the centre lane to stay out of everyones way,...

Wow steve you now have made two of my favourite quotes. The best being:court proven science

That ones legendary at the office. The other engineers wouldn't believe me. I had to actually show them the thread.

[rpr]

John, to reply to your comments, can you tell me what the estimated traffic flow was when they designed the 400 in the 50's? I am sure they never concieved the thought we'd have the traffic it see's today, several million cars a day. Secondly if traffic does flow safely at 120 km/h why do we have more deaths on Ontario Highways than ever before?

Steve,

The facts don't seem to support your statement. According to Transport Canada, road deaths, collisions and injuries have steadily fallen since 1984, despite the increase in number of cars and drivers. Where are you getting your information from?

http://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/tp/tp3322/2005/page1.htm

Same thing for Ontario:

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/safety/orsar/orsar04/chp2_04.htm#table_2.19

And if you look at Ontario alone, we have the least casualties per billion km's traveled than any other province except NWT. Seems we are doing pretty good.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/tp/tp3322/2005/page5.htm

So 34 fatalities due to street racing since '99. There have been roughly 6,400 road deaths in Ontario over that time. That is .5% of all traffic fatalities in Ontario. Granted, they are all tragic, but there are LOTS of other ways people die on the road. Did you know that rural deaths outpace urban deaths by 100%? Did you also know that there the same number of road deaths in 1941 as there were in 2004? But in 2004 there were 10 times the number of licensed drivers.

Statistics can say so many things.

Tom

[Crusher45]

[QUOTE=gatherer;104845]anyone ever been on the trans canada through the prairies? that is one rough road, but at the same time the speed limit is 110 km/h... the road is no where near the safety features of the 400 series highways .. yet carries a larger limit... and don't tell me it's because the priaires are flat. the road has turns in it, and there is quite the sizable ditch to end up in on the side of the road.
QUOTE]

I don't think those highways out west carry a million cars a day like in Toronto.

Last night on the 401 east bound just east of Brock road 4 cars were stopped in the left lane. If someone is doing 130 to 140 you cannot control your vehicle. If you are doing 100 you have more time to react and better control of your car.

I think crushing the cars is rediculious but life suspensions for killing someone should be applied.

[Steve Moore]

Keith, some of the worst accident on our highways happen outside the GTA. You live out here in Milton, havent you noticed how many times theres a fatal at James Snow Parkway or Hwy 6?

How about the 50 car pile up just outside Windsor in the Fog several years ago, I believe there were 9 Killed and countless injured. Sure Fog was a major factor but the OPP Report and witnesses all pointed to excessive speed as the largest factor that contributed to the deaths & injuries. Lets face it people still want to speed regardless of the road or weather conditions.

Less face facts about Speed

-Reduces braking distance
-Reduces reaction time
-Reduces drivers ability to control car
-Reduces survival rate in collision

All of those stay the same whether your driving through Toronto on the 401/400 or on the Trans Canada in the Prairies regardless of the time of day and vehicle flow.

Guys argue the point as much as you want, the point remains that is that Posted Speed Limit is 100 km/h, it will not be changed in the forseeable future but it will be HIGHLY ENFORCED NOW more than ever and you've been given the heads up, it's coming!

BTW for those all PM'ing me for legal advice, I can't give it. My opinions on this forum are just that, my personal opinions. While I have been in Policing 19yrs, the last 8+ have been in K9 hunting the scum of the earth that pray on society. So as Austin Powers would say "Traffic's not my bag baby".

Now if BBS would just ship our rims so I could go Racing:(

[JoeT]

I've sent Michael Bryant a message, you all should do the same. But please keep it factual and professional.

Use this link to contact him.

http://www.michaelbryant.ca/index.php?option=com_contact&task=view&contact_id=1&Itemid=3&mosmsg=Thank+you+for+your+e-mail

[boghog]

Drive on our highways doing 130km/h and dont be suprised to see flashing lights in your mirror. Oh and the "I was just flowing with traffic" doesnt cut it with US or the Justice of the Peace, hmmmmm I dont think it works with your Insurance company either, but hey just keep telling yourself that if it makes you happy.
Technically, saying "I don't care if I was in everyone's way; I was under the limit" shouldn't work either:

Unnecessary slow driving prohibited

132. (1) No motor vehicle shall be driven on a highway at such a slow rate of speed as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic thereon except when the slow rate of speed is necessary for safe operation having regard to all the circumstances.

Though I do agree it's more likely to get pulled over for going too fast than too slow.

[Keith-02Accord]

Steve, I would consider Milton part of the GTA.

As for the fog accident, are you telling me if people were doing 100 km/hr instead of 120 km/hr that pile up would not have occured? I severely doubt it. It "might" be conceivable the accident might have been less severe, but if somebody is at zero and you hit them...whether you are doing 100 or 120, you are goind to do severe damage.

I would argue the reason for that pile up was people getting "freaked out" by the sudden loss of visibility and stopping right in their lane.

I guess at the end of the day...this argument will probably never be settled in a million years!!!!!!

In the words of Kent Brockman: "Join us tomorrow night for our show entited 'Religion: which is the one true faith?' (Probably a better shot at settling that then this speeding debate!!!!!)

[TOYSRUS]

Technically, saying "I don't care if I was in everyone's way; I was under the limit" shouldn't work either:



Though I do agree it's more likely to get pulled over for going too fast than too slow.

Wasn't there a protest a couple of years ago....2 people drove side by side down the entire length of the (2lane) 401 backing up traffic for miles till they were pulled over and given a ticket for driving too slow........

they were doing 120 kph BTW:rolleyes:

[Keith-02Accord]

A friend of mine told me a story once (and I have no clue whether or not its true):

His friend got a speeding ticket doing 125 km/hr on the 401 in the left lane. So the following week he got onto the highway into the left lane and did 98 km/hr until he got a ticket for obstructing traffic.

He took them to court and both charges were thrown out!

[Steve Moore]

Marsh....glad my post have such an impact on you and your fellow engineers, sounds like an exciting place to work.

RPR...Stats, oh give me a break, they say Violent Crime is down in Canada. Newsflash it isnt we have 5-6 Shootings, 3-4 Home Invaisions every night in Toronto alone.

Keith...your right this discussion could go on forever lol. On a side note..any idea if their going to do that Slalom event in Milton again this year? I might bring out my dad's XJR Roadster if they do, sadly the Mini Van and Excursion just wouldnt cut it

[tanney]

Marsh....glad my post have such an impact on you and your fellow engineers, sounds like an exciting place to work.

RPR...Stats, oh give me a break, they say Violent Crime is down in Canada. Newsflash it isnt we have 5-6 Shootings, 3-4 Home Invaisions every night in Toronto alone.

Keith...your right this discussion could go on forever lol. On a side note..any idea if their going to do that Slalom event in Milton again this year? I might bring out my dad's XJR Roadster if they do, sadly the Mini Van and Excursion just wouldnt cut it

Steve, that event did take place. It happened on May 12 and 13th at Mohawk Race Track....

[jduffett]

I’ve been watching this thread… I wasn’t going to get into it, but oh well, here I am…
First point… Yes, the law is 100 km/h, and it isn’t unreasonable that one should be penalized for breaking the law. It’s worth taking a look at why we have speed limits though, and why it is set at 100 km/h. I would think it is a pretty fair assumption that speed limits are intended (or should be intended) as a public safety measure. I think we can all agree that, all other factors held constant, both risk of “accident” and magnitude of the consequences increases (surely not proportionally) with speed. 100 km/h is not some magic number—there is no “safe” speed, no matter what the circumstances. Left to our own devices, most of us will make a decision as to what speed is appropriate for a given situation based on some combination of real and perceived risks. As somebody else touched on, a general rule of thumb in setting speed limits is to set them to the 80th (I’ve also seen 85th) percentile speed. You can argue the exact percentile that is appropriate, and certainly there are instances where deviations from this are necessary (school zones for example), but the general concept is good—that a speed limit should reflect the speeds that a significant majority of drivers deem reasonable under optimum conditions. This speed is based on a lot of factors, including highway design, traffic volume, vehicle design, etc, all of which are subject to change over time. So, as some have mentioned in this thread, the highways were designed for higher speeds, vehicles are more capable than they were at the time the highways were designed, but traffic volumes are higher, and some contend driver training is lower… Difficult to determine what the net effect is, but based on the observations of most here, left-lane traffic flow of 120-130 km/h is the norm, which tends to indicate that the limit is set too low. Some have indicated that the 100 km/h limit was set with fuel consumption concerns in mind (which I suppose there is some merit too, but personally I would rather let gas prices let me determine things), which tends to reinforce the idea that the limit is artificially low. Strict enforcement of the 100 km/h limit has not traditionally been in effect, and I’d like to think this has been more a case of police officers using proper judgment as to which drivers actually pose a threat to the safety of others, rather than that they have simply been turning a blind eye for any other reason. If we look at traffic laws as a matter of ensuring public safety, a speed limit on its own, while easily enforceable, does little to describe the degree to which one driver puts another driver’s life in danger. It is simply a tool (and an imperfect one at that), and in my opinion one of many factors that should be evaluated (and often is in my experience) when an officer pulls a car over and issues a ticket. As an aside… In another life, I knew a guy who got busted for 55 km/h over the limit. He got a speeding ticket (for a whopping $75), but the officer did comment that while technically that could be grounds for a reckless driving charge or a license suspension, “I don’t think what you were doing was dangerous, but the speed was a little excessive”. Steve Moore, you have made a few specific weak arguments defending a 100 km/h limit, but I really don’t think they hold any water. A speed limit is a MAXIMUM lawful speed under ideal or typical conditions. Weather and traffic (to pick the two biggest factors) should play into a driver’s decision about speed and following distance. In your fog example, if 120 km/h was too fast, it’s very likely 100 km/h was too fast as well. Certainly, the lower the speed at impact the better for all concerned, but to me the real issue in a case like that is driver training—drivers should know when to slow down and when to leave extra room so as to prevent these incidents altogether. I don’t think a speed of 120-130 km/h on 400 series highways is a serious issue, in and of itself. Speeding in combination with all sorts of other poor driving habits such as tailgating, not signaling lane changes, driving in the wrong lane, and poor situational awareness IS a serious issue. Unfortunately, when an “accident” happens, it seems that speed is often targeted as the primary cause, when it is usually only a contributing factor.
I was going to make some comments about street racing / modified cars / etc, but I think y’all have got all the main points covered, and I’m sick of typing now.

[Keith-02Accord]

That was probably the most thought out response on the topic of speeding!

[finboy]

I was going to make some comments about street racing / modified cars / etc, but I think y’all have got all the main points covered, and I’m sick of typing now.

please do!!

[mcalien3]

Speeding in combination with all sorts of other poor driving habits such as tailgating, not signaling lane changes, driving in the wrong lane, and poor situational awareness IS a serious issue. Unfortunately, when an “accident” happens, it seems that speed is often targeted as the primary cause, when it is usually only a contributing factor.

Excellent post!
One thing (opinion only) that is the problem is a severe lack of driver training and testing.
I swear they hand out licences in cereal boxes ( or sell them like at Vic. Park and Lawrence in recent memory)
A drivers licence is not a "right", it is a privilege, that should only be given to those who have proven their competency in all aspects of operating a motor vehicle.
Is a trip on the 401 included in a driver's test?
I know it scares me to be anywhere near Home Depot at Morningside and Sheppard when the MTO office is open.

[Fast Eddie]

The big problem that I see are the tailgaters and aggressive drivers.

I think that more police on the roads in unmarked cars are needed. Not the Crown Vics or Impalas either.

I used to drive an Impala and had a few amateur radio antennae on it. Most people seemed to be a little cautious around it on the highway.

In my Honda Civic and Acura CSX, however, there are times that some idiots get within 2 feet of my rear bumper at even at speeds of 115KMH.

Now if I were only a police officer in that civic, how many aggressive lane-changers, tailgaters, no signal lane changers(including OPP cruisers:eek: ), cell phone talkers, map readers, newspaper readers, make-up applyers, kids hanging out the windows, speeders, and even 'street racers' would I catch on any given shift?

[StewPiddass]

Good call Ed, just pull 'em over! I can just see it! Got a pair of mirrored sunglasses? I've got tons of strobes from back in my car audio days.

[John Powell]

A little while back I got some interesting reading on the basic cause of fatal highway crashes written by Al Gullon, an MCO member and engineer. After some searching I just found them, so here they are for your edification and entertainment (and Steve, I promise these will be of interest to you, especially those parts concerning police officers).

1. This first link is a general overview: http://www.alsaces.ca/the_7_dimensions____.htm

2. This link contains several sub-links(?) the first of which doesn't work, and the second I have posted separately so see below before opening it. Read them all as they give more detail than 1. above:
http://www.alsaces.ca/traffic_safety.htm

3. This last link is a much more detailed report filled with charts and other technical terms, which engineers seem to love. I found it very interesting and informative, but it takes some time and effort to get through so maybe you should bookmark it to read at your leisure:
http://www.alsaces.ca/whodunnit('97_detroit_paper).htm

This is the sort of thing that politicians, senior government and police officials, and insurance industry executives should be reading and acting upon, but don't because it would upset their pre-conceptions and reduce government revenues and insurance industry profits. :mad:

[John Powell]

This ain't cars, but it's the same principle, and given the way I've seen both types act here in Ottawa, I wonder it hasn't happened sooner.
http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/TopStories/ContentPosting.aspx?feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V2&showbyline=True&newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20070623%2fcyclist_rollerblader_070623
And who's to blame here, the speeder or the idiot on the wrong side of the road?

[DEK]

Mini un-scientific survey. While driving to Mosport Saturday June 23, I mentally collected info on everyone who passed me. I was conscious of the 100 KPH limit on the 401. As it was somewhat early in the morning (7:00 AM) I wasn't surprised that none of the cars were visibly modified to any extent.
I would estimate the fastest car that went by me was doing 140 KPH and mostly the passers were doing about 130 KPH. There was a mixture of genders and ages. Didn't see anyone eating breakfast. I would expect none of these speeders would have been happy with a 30 over or more ticket.
But as has been pointed out the limit is 100 KPH.
Just what I saw.
DAVE KING

[rpr]

RPR...Stats, oh give me a break, they say Violent Crime is down in Canada. Newsflash it isnt we have 5-6 Shootings, 3-4 Home Invaisions every night in Toronto alone.


I was just trying to understand where your previous statement about the roads being more dangerous comes from, when the only measure I have is what the government publishes. If those numbers are wrong, I'm sure Transport Canada and the MTO would love to hear about it.

Tom

[Rampant WS6]

So what they are saying is it fine to be a rich F@!# and have no idea how to drive, but can afford C6 Z06, Ferrari's, AMG's, Saleens, new 700+ Shelby Mustang, but I can not have a 412ci stroker in my car with emission, because I did it myself.:mad:

The fools choice of weapon does not matter.

Today on our clubs poker run I witnessed, a Corrolla, an AMG SL55, an Audi A4 Turbo doing high speed right lane weave arounds, a drag race off a light by a modified Civic vs a Caddy DTS likely up to 160-170 on Hwy 7. Along with many other bone heads, and only one car was modified of all that I witnessed. To be honest with you the run I witnessed off the light was likely the safest thing I saw too. 3 lanes wide, no traffic in front of them for 1-2kms, still a very dumb move though in todays political climate.

Just something to consider.

I can not help but believe that this exact same thing is witnessed by the law enforcement officers out there, the car does not need to be after market modified to have a dangerous idiot behind the wheel.

[StewPiddass]

Yes but the problem is they're (I guess the cops and media together) telling everyone that it's the kids in the modified cars that are running around causing all the trouble. Power of suggestion works well on all of us I guess...

You talk of your stroker... imagine if I was to go out and put a pile of $ into a supercharger kit for my Civic, that'd be some killer crazy street racing mod that might bring me all the way from 100 hp to 140... about the same as your average new Hyundai! And usually it's not even as bad as that, they're picking on the kids with intake and exhaust and spoilers (then again they are the obvious ones!) that have gained 4hp if they're lucky!

[yellowhotshoe]

So what they are saying is it fine to be a rich F@!# and have no idea how to drive, but can afford C6 Z06, Ferrari's, AMG's, Saleens, new 700+ Shelby Mustang, but I can not have a 412ci stroker in my car with emission, because I did it myself.

I wonder if the two American Vettes that are in impound in Bradford will meet the crushing fate? Caught at 200 kph on Hwy. 400 last Thursday / Friday. Does the extradition treaty between Canada and the US extend to cars?

[StewPiddass]

My "see cars don't have to be modified" argument was slightly damaged when I saw pics of boost gauges in the "A" pillar pods of those Corvettes.

Though I still stand by it, I'm pretty sure a Z06 can do over 200 without boost!

[JoeT]

My "see cars don't have to be modified" argument was slightly damaged when I saw pics of boost gauges in the "A" pillar pods of those Corvettes.

Though I still stand by it, I'm pretty sure a Z06 can do over 200 without boost!

Where did you see those photos, because from the footage I saw on Pulse 24 web site, it was hard to make out what those guages were. They could be Oil tem and Oil pressure guages for all I know.

Link to photo's please.

[Keith-02Accord]

Where did you see those photos, because from the footage I saw on Pulse 24 web site, it was hard to make out what those guages were. They could be Oil tem and Oil pressure guages for all I know.

Link to photo's please.


I haven't seen the photo's, by I read somewhere that they were both supercharged.

[JoeT]

I haven't seen the photo's, by I read somewhere that they were both supercharged.

Are there any verifyiable pictures on the web? There's already too much hearsay (specially from Michael Bryant)..

[StewPiddass]

I saw boost for sure 100% but it was video panning by, not stills so I don't know if it's archived. It was on A-channel.

[Steelrat]

The pics I've seen of the vette's there was one for sure with a-piller gauges.... although, it looks like they might have been defi's so it's impossible to know what they are without power to the ignition.... All I could see was black faces.....

It's possible they were modified... the ones with the gauges, did not look like stock exhaust either.... although, in the grand scheme of things, it's hard to say.....

Definately lots of "I think...." stuff going on....

Dave,

[J.C.]

The government allows americans to come across the border with cars that we are not allowed to import into Canada because of safety or other reasons. So why is it now they are concerning themselves with the issue of modified american vehicles?


If they really feel speeding is such an issue why don't they just put a data acquisition system in every car starting with all the government, media and issurance industry owned ones.

I figure they may as well lead by example.

[rpr]

It gets even better, OPP Commish Julian Fantino weighs in: Seize cars going 50km/h over limit (http://www.thestar.com/News/article/229254)

They would have a field day on the 407.

tom

[StewPiddass]

I love it... "If you're going 50 over the limit, you're racing!" I'm not sure how that changes the definition of racing...

[finboy]

bring back photo radar .... it will curb speeding, and at the same time generate money for the province, there's a bunch of other pro's as well


unless they change the police policies regarding pursuits.. air tactics are the only way to catch these streetracers SAFELY

speeding is speeding

careless is careless

racing is racing

they're using a nuke to fix everything regarding these latest headlines..

Fantino did nothing for metro... what he does for the Odots .. who knows

[ScotcH]

My "see cars don't have to be modified" argument was slightly damaged when I saw pics of boost gauges in the "A" pillar pods of those Corvettes.

Though I still stand by it, I'm pretty sure a Z06 can do over 200 without boost!

Ummm ... my old Acura could do over 200, and I'm sure so can many cars on the road. It just might take 10 minutes to reach that. You don't need a Z06.

[StewPiddass]

Hell Arek, my 15 year old, 100 hp Civic can even do it! (it does take the aforementioned 10 minutes though)

I've had the afternoon to think of Fantino's air tactics though... it can catch more speeders and generate more revenue due to its stealthiness but you're not doing anything to make the roads safer really unless you're adding patrol cars to the road (and I would think adding planes might mean reducing cars).

[soloZ]

A big truck went through some guard rails this after noon, are we pressing the careless/streetracing under 50 over/ etc? I think the drivers truck should be crushed!

Also I have been reading this thread for a while and I thought of this the other day, what if the truck driver that had died the other day was falling a sleep, or talking on the cell phone, or eating a big mack he just baught from the Mac donalds along the highway.

[StewPiddass]

It's all very possible... but it wouldn't help the big media blitz at all now would it Ryan? Come on, think before you type...

[Steve Moore]

Guys, read my first post again, I said we need more cruisers on our highways. You can catch the aggressive driving and act as a deterant.

What I told you earlier, was a heads up from a fellow CASC member. They will be targeting HIGH SPEED Driving on the Highways. Agree with it or not I dont really care, the writing is on the wall, read the STAR article on Fantino's visit. He was my boss for awhile, so I know this well.....he gets what he wants and there will be no tolerance for SPEEDING.

So stop worrying about the Mods to your Cone Crushers (pardon the pun). Speeding is where they'll get you and an Automatic Suspension will void your racing licence!

[Slowpoke]

So stop worrying about the Mods to your Cone Crushers (pardon the pun). Speeding is where they'll get you and an Automatic Suspension will void your racing licence!

I wasn't aware of this. CASC-OR voids Type B or C racing licenses for suspension of your driver's license? Makes sense I suppose, since we're supposed to have a driver's license in the first place...

Well, the media blitz affected my driving today, but didn't seem to affect anyone else. Going from the right hand lane to the left "passing" lane from the 403 to 407 at the speed limit just before rush hour congestion starts is a good way to get the Chevette Salute.

[soloZ]

It's all very possible... but it wouldn't help the big media blitz at all now would it Ryan? Come on, think before you type...


Yea I know I guess I was thinking out loud. On my way to Mosport on Saturday(the Vintage was awesome by the way) I felt like I was going slow at 120 I probably surprised my wife, I follow every rule on these roads but the speed limits are a tough one. I don't weave in and out of traffic or make risky manuvers in front of transport trucks, I normally give them about ten or more car lengths before changing lanes in front of one. I know they can't stop fast or do much anything else.

Just be carful guys, any chances of a tour down at your dog pound Steve? I live around the corner.

[Steve Moore]

Sure, Im on holidays until July 19th. I'll be starting back on Evenings call me at the office (416) 808-1750 and we can arrainge a time for you to come by. You can even try on the Bitesuit if you want. ;)

[soloZ]

You can even try on the Bitesuit if you want. ;)



Oh can I lol on second thought I allready know what it is like to get bitten by a German Sheppard.:(

[AlienDNA]

Oh can I lol on second thought I allready know what it is like to get bitten by a German Sheppard.:(

Ooh! Make sure you give me a day's notice when you go - I want to make sure I have both my camera batteries charged. And I think it would be a hoot to try on the bitesuit myself.

Getting back on topic (sort of), coming back from Goodwood tonight, I decided to run a buck twenty down the 404 back into town. Guess how many cars I passed between Bloomington Road and Highway 7?

Zero.

That's right, every single car on the southbound 404 at that time was running over 120 - some of them well over. There was one 911 running a bit over 120, and an M3 and a 745i running nose to tail at waaaay over 120. But, significantly, there was not one single slammed Civic or decaled Subaru or Rousch Mustang in the lot. Just a bunch of mini-vans and SUVs and bone stock sedans. And not a police car to be seen the entire trip.

The dumbest thing I saw all evening was a new Civic sedan loaded down with seven people, doing somewhere north of 140 I'm guessing. But they were in the HOV lane, so maybe that's okay.

[uptownguy]

Professional courtesy among police

In Quebec a lot of owners of fast vehicles, big Sports Bikes T-Rexs hot Mustangs etc. are police officers.

When asked about speeding they admit to a professional courtesy among officers when it comes to ticketing fellow officers. Does this same professional courtesy exist among the brotherhood in Ontario.

I understand that an officer, with too many points, job would be in jeopardy.

Just wondering????.

Peter Austin
Montreal

[J.C.]

"Yes" is to short an answer.

[StewPiddass]

Yup, gets extended to a couple of branches of emergency servants...

[Slowpoke]

Had a discussion with someone in Peel Police Intelligence department. (No snickers now.) He mentioned that if I see a cruiser with "Highway Ranger" lettering, they apparently show no mercy to anyone including police officers.

[AndrewR]

Had a discussion with someone in Peel Police Intelligence department. (No snickers now.) He mentioned that if I see a cruiser with "Highway Ranger" lettering, they apparently show no mercy to anyone including police officers.

Go Tonto!!

[Steve Moore]

Wow I didnt realize there were that many Police Officers on here to answer that question.

It really depends where you are and what you did. I used to drive a Buick Grand National, I got it 2nd hand and it had dark tinted windows. Before I could remove the tint, I was pulled over twice in a week by the same Peel Police Sgt. He told me if he saw my car again with the tint still on it he was going to charge me and contact my suspervisor in Toronto. So in some cases, we Police Officers get it twice...HTA & PSA. How many of you out there could be charged by your work for your actions OFFDUTY?

Dont forget a majority of OPP & Toronto cars on the Highways now have Audio/Video Recording equipment.(Yes, your conversation with the Officer is recorded) Discretion can be used but not abused otherwise the Officer could face Police Act Charges for Neglect of Duty. And yes expect no mercy if its a Highway Ranger.

[J.C.]

Wow I didnt realize there were that many Police Officers on here to answer that question.

You do not need to be a police officer to answer that question.


P.S. Some of us may have friends/family members that are in law enforcement or perhaps we even work with them.

[StewPiddass]

Ditto...

I'm not even really saying I have that much of a problem with it as long as they're not getting away with anything "too bad", I guess that's subjective too though...

[6thGear]

Some rather common sense commentary in this week's National Post Driving from David Grainger, professional auto restorer:

Car crushing is a stupid solution
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/driving/story.html?id=fc1472c6-7879-4d06-9b98-807776d0735b

Stringing together a few thoughts from the above and my originally unintended use of the term "common sense", Ontarians do have the opportunity to throw out of office ignorami (ignoramuses?) like the current A-G in this fall's election.

No comment on the level of ignorance of the average Ontario voter, though.

[AlienDNA]

This week coming home from Goodwood I decided to slow it down even more and drove a cool, indicated 110 km/h from Bloomington Road down to the 401. I did not pass a single car until the Steeles Ave. exit.

This time, though, I actually did see three - count 'em, three! - modified cars: two lowered Civics and a lowered Integra. But one of the Civics was a four door with a giant roof rack and the Integra looked like it had stock 14" wheels, so I don't think they count. They were barely faster than me anyhow.

There were the usual packs of Audis, Mercedes and BMWs, but most of the traffic was - surprise! - mini-vans and SUVs. I've come to the conclusion, however, that 3-series BMWs have a horrible design flaw that causes them to pull hard to the left. How else can you explain that you never see one any where but the far left lane?

The three fastest vehicles tonight were a yellow C5 convertible (no complaints there - they're built to go fast), a black 10 year old Camry and 3/4 ton Econoline van. The two most inappropriate vehicles to pass me were a CAA truck towing a Honda and a rusty Ford Aerostar towing a hotdog cart. And the dumbest driver was the organ donor on the sport bike that decided passing between cars on the DVP was a good plan.

Next time, I pledge to drive the speed limit and see if I can make it all the way home without passing any cars at all...

[MitS]

Next time, I pledge to drive the speed limit and see if I can make it all the way home without passing any cars at all...

In my experience, there is almost always somebody doing less than 100. Good luck!

My favourite sight is when you see a cube van doing 150km/h while weaving in and out of traffic. I wonder if they will crush those too.

[h-bomb]

My favourite sight is when you see a cube van doing 150km/h while weaving in and out of traffic. I wonder if they will crush those too.

I tried to keep up to one last night driving home from the airport in my beater and couldn't...

[finboy]

amazing...

not one mention of the words STREET RACER


perhaps the reporter didn't get the memo


http://www.thestar.com/News/article/232846

[John Powell]

Hmmm. I think it would have taken a hit in just the right place and a huge speed differential for a BMW to "loosen up" the rear end of a loaded gravel truck. :eek:

[TFB]

Well I've just had some fairly close experience with what the police consider street racing. 2 friends of mine were stopped at a set of lights. Light goes green and they sqawk the tires a bit, make some noise, drive to about 60-65 km/h then gear up and slow down. Granted childish and immature but by no means racing. A cop in the McDonalds drive thru heard then saw this. Once he got his food a minute or two later he pulled them over a kilometre or so down the road. He gave them a summons to court for street racing.


Squawk their tires "together", make some noise "together", and drive to about 60-65 "together", and "then" slow down?

And of course this comes out of the mouths of your friends themselves, so there's not a chance they may have tried to minimize their own actions in an attempt to maximize sympathy and collective outrage at their treatment by the bad man in the police car. Right?

So let's see if I get the gist here - it's ok to have unrestricted "launch contests" from traffic lights as long as you don't break the speed limit, or at least don't break it by too much.

You say "childish and immature"? Yup, I guess it was. After the street racing tickets, do you think they will do so again as easily? If not, the objective was met.

[P90Puma]

You say "childish and immature"? Yup, I guess it was. After the street racing tickets, do you think they will do so again as easily? If not, the objective was met.

It's not a TICKET anymore. Its a criminal offense. You are branded the same as a rapist/murderer/etc, say bye bye to $$$$$$$ for a lawyer so you don't ruin the rest of your life.

This is why I don't do anything on the street anymore. Period.

[TFB]

It's not a TICKET anymore. Its a criminal offense. You are branded the same as a rapist/murderer/etc, say bye bye to $$$$$$$ for a lawyer so you don't ruin the rest of your life.

This is why I don't do anything on the street anymore. Period.

It's not a criminal offence. You are still charged under the HTA for street racing. It doesn't become a criminal offence until you hurt or kill someone while street racing, in which case you are charged with dangerous driving or criminal negligence under the Criminal Code, with street racing as the aggravating factor.

[TFB]

Well I've just had some fairly close experience with what the police consider street racing. 2 friends of mine were stopped at a set of lights. Light goes green and they sqawk the tires a bit, make some noise, drive to about 60-65 km/h then gear up and slow down. Granted childish and immature but by no means racing. A cop in the McDonalds drive thru heard then saw this. Once he got his food a minute or two later he pulled them over a kilometre or so down the road. He gave them a summons to court for street racing.

Granted immature and stupid, but by no means street racing.

Just thought I'd throw that out there. I think there was another thread about this somewhere but I couldn't find it.

You mention "two friends of yours"? Is one of your friends also called an oddball on that other forum? :p

Seems like you got busted again... http://www.gtcars.ca/online/traffic-tickets-car-insurance-discussion/43270-got-racing-charge.html#post218503

[Oddball]

Well if your goal in life is to belittle me then fine, job done. I can do that well enough on my own, though thank you very much.

Point is that what exactly racing is is not defined, only as each cop deems fit. 2 friends at a light moving quickly up to the speed limit , or 2 anyone for that matter, is not disruptive nor illegal nor should be defined as illegal. There.
I've had enough.

[J.C.]

Point is that what exactly racing is is not defined, only as each cop deems fit.


This is exactly what is bothering alot of people and needs to be spelled out.

[wikdslo]

Point is that what exactly racing is is not defined, only as each cop deems fit. 2 friends at a light moving quickly up to the speed limit , or 2 anyone for that matter, is not disruptive nor illegal nor should be defined as illegal. There.
I've had enough.


2 people coincidentally at the same place and time, moving quickly up to the speed limit? I would consider that racing.. I doubt they both just got the same thought in their heads with no intention of some spirited competition...

It sucks, but what do you expect?

[13inches]

Further, on June 11th a new proposal was made to better define the terms "race, contest, and stunt" and clarify what steps officers can take when a vehicle is stopped

http://www.ontariocanada.com/registry/view.do?postingId=980&language=en

They're still working on defining the terms of the new laws.....

[nrg3k_civic]

2 people coincidentally at the same place and time, moving quickly up to the speed limit? I would consider that racing.. I doubt they both just got the same thought in their heads with no intention of some spirited competition...

It sucks, but what do you expect?

What about those times when you are just in a rush, and don't realize the guy in the 'slow lane' beside you also wants to be in a rush? Of course, he wants to get ahead of you before that parked car, too! Is that a race? If nobody exceeds the speed limit, how can it be defined clearly as a race? Regardless if the people know each other, the same rules must apply...

DJM:>

[wikdslo]

What about those times when you are just in a rush, and don't realize the guy in the 'slow lane' beside you also wants to be in a rush? Of course, he wants to get ahead of you before that parked car, too! Is that a race? If nobody exceeds the speed limit, how can it be defined clearly as a race? Regardless if the people know each other, the same rules must apply...

DJM:>


Who's to say that you have to go past a certain speed to be considered racing?

That being said, the coincidence of them both being friends, and both doing the same thing when they are probably headed to the same locaiton, or coming from the same location, I would feel comfortable in making the assumption of what they were up to, as did the cop apparently.

I'm not trying to argue and be an a$$, not my intention.. Just thought I'd throw another viewpoint of this whole ordeal out there. We hear the side from the guy who wants our sympathy and is doing his best to make it look like he did nothing wrong.

Just chirping your tires can get you a ticket. I forget what it's for, but the cops can give you a ticket because you jump on the gas too much.

Either way, it's a cruddy law, and there are no limitations to it as there is no real definition of it.

[John Powell]

What about those times when you are just in a rush, and don't realize the guy in the 'slow lane' beside you also wants to be in a rush? Of course, he wants to get ahead of you before that parked car, too! Is that a race? If nobody exceeds the speed limit, how can it be defined clearly as a race? Regardless if the people know each other, the same rules must apply...

DJM:>

If two drivers are competing for the same piece of road, I'd say that could be considered as racing whether or not they go over the posted speed limit, and regardless of whether or not they know each other. And personally, I'd say these drivers are just as dangerous as those commonly called "street racers", and if there was any justice in anti-street racing enforcement, these types would be subject to the same charges. :mad: Of course, because they aren't the current "flavour of the day" for crack-downs, you know that most of them will not be even stopped! :rolleyes:

[AlienDNA]

Its all a moot point right now. With four gun deaths last weekend and Miller's half-billion dollar hissy-fit, it'll be a while before "street racing" gets back in the news.

[Wedge]

Its all a moot point right now. With four gun deaths last weekend and Miller's half-billion dollar hissy-fit, it'll be a while before "street racing" gets back in the news.

Hurray for the fickleness of society! :D

[Keith-02Accord]

So, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I wrote a letter to our A-G, with copies to my MPP and the Minister of Transportation.

Attached is the letter I received back from the A-G. Not only did he not answer anything specific in my email to him, but READ THE FIRST SENTENCE OF THE 2ND PARAGRAPH.

On a side-note, this looks like a totally canned letter that was sent to anyone that wrote in to him which tells me very clearly he doesn't give a damn about anybody else's opinion, which we already know from his other policies (i.e. the Pit Bull ban where even renowned EXPERTS told him it was the complete wrong approach, but that's another story)

[TFB]

Attached is the letter I received back from the A-G. Not only did he not answer anything specific in my email to him, but READ THE FIRST SENTENCE OF THE 2ND PARAGRAPH.

So what?

Read the second sentence in the second paragraph, to wit; "all steps to freeze and forfeit property require the ministry to prove its case in court".

The third and fourth sentence of that same second paragraph go further to dispel any belief that your car is gone and crushed the moment a cop decides to take it.

[Keith-02Accord]

I agree, the case must be proven in court. But how do you define likely? How can anybody define that? Is it 50% likely to street race. Or maybe it's 95% likely???

Are you likely to street race if you put a turbo on your car? Are you likely to street race if you put a loud exhaust on your car?

Basically, what this tells me is that if they think you will street race, that's all they have to show in court.

[TFB]

I agree, the case must be proven in court. But how do you define likely? How can anybody define that? Is it 50% likely to street race. Or maybe it's 95% likely???

Are you likely to street race if you put a turbo on your car? Are you likely to street race if you put a loud exhaust on your car?

Basically, what this tells me is that if they think you will street race, that's all they have to show in court.

The car and any (if any) mods won't be the deciding factor - the deciding factor will be the behaviour and/or publicly stated intentions of the driver.

[Greg F]

Where will your car be between the time the cop takes it and the courts decide if the Ministry proves it can seize it?

[finboy]

The car and any (if any) mods won't be the deciding factor - the deciding factor will be the behaviour and/or publicly stated intentions of the driver.

where did you read that??

[Keith-02Accord]

The car and any (if any) mods won't be the deciding factor - the deciding factor will be the behaviour and/or publicly stated intentions of the driver.

That is certainly what I would hope would happen, however, Bryant made his intentions very clear regarding cars that have been modified.

Furthermore, I gave him the chance in my letter to answer to that, and he chose not to.

[MazdaMatt]

Where's he live? I'll sneak in and install a cherrybomb muffler on his car and call the cops on him. He sounds like a real dick.

[G-ForceJunkie]

Haven't been following the thread, but thought these were funny :)

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d133/jibbijib/civic-bryant.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d133/jibbijib/civic-bryant1.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d133/jibbijib/fastfurious.jpg

[Steve Moore]

So awhile back I warned you that speeding would be highly enforced, well here's what we're hearing.

OPP is getting a plane for Speed Enforcement and they are going to ammend the HTA anyone caught doing 50 km/h over the posted limit whether around other cars or not will be deemed to be Street Racing.

[Keith-02Accord]

Yeah, I heard that's what Fantino wants, but I haven't seen anything about it in the legislature.

[AndrewR]

So awhile back I warned you that speeding would be highly enforced, well here's what we're hearing.

OPP is getting a plane for Speed Enforcement and they are going to ammend the HTA anyone caught doing 50 km/h over the posted limit whether around other cars or not will be deemed to be Street Racing.


What another boondoggle, the 2 mil would be better spent "enforcing" the rules we already have.

Get the SUV's and mini-vans out of the left lane, and stop the aggressive weaving.

And then perhaps invest in more roads, hmm... naa.. that would be forward thinking.

[msix]

So awhile back I warned you that speeding would be highly enforced, well here's what we're hearing.

OPP is getting a plane for Speed Enforcement and they are going to ammend the HTA anyone caught doing 50 km/h over the posted limit whether around other cars or not will be deemed to be Street Racing.


Totally idiotic!

Can someone tell me why the Government spend millions on widening the roads, building passing lanes, etc?
Is it just to lure the frustrated snake of drivers that have been following a car going 80 for the past 10 kilometers to fall into a speed trap?

Have you ever seen those drivers that drive normally 80, then come to a passing zone and all of a sudden they know how to drive 120 just so you cant pass (unless you go 140 and this means Street racing now).

These are the spots that you find most cruisers sitting and cashing in. Can you tell me why they build a passing lane when the only thing going slower than 80 is maybe a tractor?

ALSO the majority of those drivers going 80 NEVER bothers slowing down within a town speed limit of 50 or 60. Very seldom you ever see an OPP cruiser checking there.

Those "GOOD" drivers are half asleep anyways for going 80 all the time, they just fly through town with the same speed.

So I am asking who is a more dangerous driver?
The one driving 100 - 110 km/h on an open highway on a clear and dry road but then obeying the speed limit where it matters, in towns, (me ;) )
Or the one keeping his/her cruise control at 80 all the time, even through towns.
I drive about 70k km a year and do see things happening on the roads and this is my biggest issue that hardley anyone slows down in towns.


Great idea, spending a lot more tax money with bigger (3-lane) highways where you are not allowed to pass and Airplane enforcement and then raking it in again with speeding fines .... :rolleyes:

Spend the money on better drivers education! There would be a lot less accidents then there is from people speeding ... I mean driving spirited.

[tanney]

Yep, we drive across Horner ave in Etobicoke between Browns Line and Kipling.... The same f***ing morons doing 80 in passing lane on the 427 go 75-90 in the 40 school zone along Horner. We see it EVERY DAY, no exceptions. We see cops sitting there maybe once every three months. We do 45 and people honk, ride our bumper and swerve to cut us off after swerving around us. Again these are usually the same idiots hogging the passing lane doing UNDER the speed limit on the highway.

Whatever! Then there is the cops who we see going 160-180 without the lights on. Do they get charged with street racing?

[Fast Eddie]

I see the same thing here too.

People flying through school zones.

Zooming though residential sub-divisions with cars parked on both sides of the street and children out and about.

Then there was this OPP cruiser that flew past me, turned on the take-downs, went through a red light and turned into ....... get this ..... I kid you not ..... a Tim Hortons drive through!!!!!!! Putting lives at risk for a double-double???

[JoeT]

Like many people have said, spend the money on better driver education, in addition to that, put some money into investigating "Driver Testing Centers". I've seen newbies getting licenses that can't even parallel park, let alone stay in their own lanes.

We already have graduated licensing, add to that a driving test in between graduations to ensure that people "retain what they learn" then force them to go to advanced driver training. Any type, like Skid control, courtesy for other drivers, sharing the road, "Keeping right except to pass"... Silly things like that..

Oh, (for MSIX :p ) training for BMW drivers to educate them where the turn signal indicators are.. LOL (This last part was a joke as in Humour, as in giggle, laugh, chuckle, because it applies to most high end car owners. :D )

[tanney]

Oh, (for MSIX ) training for BMW drivers to educate them where the turn signal indicators are.. LOL (This last part was a joke as in Humour, as in giggle, laugh, chuckle, because it applies to most high end car owners. )

LOL! What's the difference between and BMW and a Porcupine? (I can use this joke because I have owned a BMW in the past):)

[tanney]

Quebec seem to be going in the right direction. Too bad the elected officials wouldn't go this route instead of the current route they are taking.... This doesn't solve all of the problems (and doesn't directly deal with the "street racing" issue), but sure as hell would be a good start.

[quote]
Que. cracks down on drivers using cells

by Canadian Press posted July 5, 2007


QUEBEC (CP) - Transport Minister Julie Boulet says she will introduce legislation to ban the use of hand-held cellphones by motorists.

Other measures to stem the carnage on Quebec roads - the worst in the country - will include tougher penalties and higher fines for speeding and drinking and driving. Photo radar will also be tried out as will cameras to catch drivers who ignore red lights.

Boulet's actions follow the release of a report of a committee examining road safety.

She says amendments to current legislation will be tabled in the fall with the aim of passing it by the end of the year.

New drivers will also have a longer probation period.
[end quote]

http://www6.autonet.ca/Safety/story.cfm?story=/Safety/2007/07/05/4315712-cp.html

How many times THIS WEEK have you had to swerve to avoid some dick on a cell phone, me, three, and it's only Wednesday.

[Keith-02Accord]

To confirm Steve's Post:

http://www.torontosun.com/News/Canada/2007/08/16/4422048-sun.html


I would be extremely surprised if a street racing charge will hold up in court for drivng 50km/h over the limit, especially given that the Street Racing law clearly states "two or more vehicles...."

[Steve Moore]

Hey Wes, I will try and patrol that area when Im in the westend. Ive been the only K9 for the entire city and its crazy during the summer.

As for the coppers doing high speed without lights, we do sometimes if we have to pass on the right. Not to mention the idiodic things people do when they see us approach from the rear with our Emerg equip activated. Just ask Melanie she was out with me for a ridealong this week.

And yes we have our fair share of bad drivers working for us :o

[tanney]

Steve, no worries. It just annoys the hell out of me when politicians have this knee jerk reaction to things when a little bit of fore site and long term planning would be the brighter course of action.....

As far as the police are concerned, like all professions there are always a few "bad apples" and abuse their power.......

[John Powell]

Hmm. Has anyone noticed that our new "scheduled" Provincial elections are due in a couple of months? Is it a coincidence that prominent Liberal Ministers have been wandering around the province announcing important "Government" policy initiatives these last few months? We've suddenly had a lot of "initiatives" announced out here on the Eastern Marches of our fair Province in addition to the Province-wide stuff, e.g. transit plans and road widenings, with lots of $$$$$ attached. Of course, these are "government" initiatives so there can't be any illegal Liberal party electioneering going on here can there? :rolleyes: Maybe I'm just an old cynic. :p

[Keith-02Accord]

John, I can't believe such things.......!

I have the utmost respect for our politicians. They only look out for OUR best interests! :rolleyes:

[John Powell]

Actually I do respect most politicians, even the ones with which I disagree, as they do work hard and it takes a big time commitment. It's just that all of them really believe that it's in our best interests for their party, and only their party, to form the Government, and they'll do anything they can get away with to achieve this. :rolleyes:

[tanney]

Mmmmm, it appears that one case of "street racing" was a case of drunk driving. The dead couple were drunk and the "street racers" get charged.

Is there something wrong with this picture? The press (and police) made it out to be street racing.......

I ask again, who many people have died as the result of drunk driving compared to street racing since 1999....?:rolleyes:

[JoeT]

Mmmmm, it appears that one case of "street racing" was a case of drunk driving. The dead couple were drunk and the "street racers" get charged.

Is there something wrong with this picture? The press (and police) made it out to be street racing.......

I ask again, who many people have died as the result of drunk driving compared to street racing since 1999....?:rolleyes:

Do you have a link to that story that says that.. It would be nice to put that out in the press...

Imagine what would happen if the "Tuner" community most of which are of voting age, and the motorsports community, got together and decided "Not" to vote for a particular party or person... I wonder if 20K votes in Ontario mean anything. Hummmm.. Out of 2million registered cars in southern Ontario, I'm sure there are at least 20000 Tuners, Motorpsports supporters, or the likes out there.

[13inches]

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_14008.aspx

http://www.torontosun.com/News/TorontoAndGTA/2007/08/23/4440019-sun.html

[J.C.]

a Honda, travelling 20-32 km over the speed limit, slammed into the Richmond Hill couple's vehicle as they turned left from Yonge St. onto Stouffville Rd.

The red Honda was following another speeding Honda at the time of the crash.



Am I reading this right? A guy driving drunk turns left into oncoming traffic and hits the second car (honda)? They then charge the (honda) guy who had the right of way? :confused:

[13inches]

Am I reading this right? A guy driving drunk turns left into oncoming traffic and hits the second car (honda)? They then charge the (honda) guy who had the right of way? :confused:

-it was not revealed the deceased driver was drunk until yesterday
-there were witness reports of the Honda's racing. right of way or not, excessive speed and racing (not to mention modified hondas) are going to get the short end of the legal stick

And most importantly:
-you can't charge a dead guy

It would be interesting to know how this would have played out if the drunk driver survived. He would have to have been charged.

[J.C.]

I was under the impression that if you turned left (drunk or not) and hit someone in the process the responsibility was yours. I guess this is not the case?

P.S. I was told this by a police officer.

Granted the guy is dead so they can't really charge him. But why with hold this fact until now?

[Keith-02Accord]

I was under the impression that if you turned left (drunk or not) and hit someone in the process the responsibility was yours. I guess this is not the case?

P.S. I was told this by a police officer.

Granted the guy is dead so they can't really charge him. But why with hold this fact until now?

You'll have to ask the media that. My hunch: Drunk driving doesn't pull in the readers like street racing will right now.

[tanney]

Besides, most politicians, media people, and even cops drive after having one or more drinks....... No point in shedding a negative light on something that is "socially exceptable".... (even if it isn't, millions of people do it every single day)

[Marsh]

It's all about fear. People have been hearing about drinking and driving for years and are no longer listening. If you want to get reellected or get a $2M budget increase you need a new evil. They found it in street racing and it worked. It never mattered if street racing was actually a problem. It never mattered if it was actually the cause of any deaths. It mattered that they could make people affraid of it.

The police showed the public an 800 pound gorilla and the public paid them $2M for Gorilla repellent.

[Steve Moore]

Sorry guys but neither are socially acceptable, nor tolerated by the Police or the Public. When Fantino was our Chief he wanted to fire any officer caught driving impaired.

The fact the driver who was killed was impaired will have a huge impact on the outcome of this case. The investigating officers would not have know at the time unless there was physical evidence in the car of drinking. They wouldnt have known until the Toxicology reports came out. Which knowing the backlog at CFS couldve taken up to recently to disclose.

Steve

[tanney]

Sorry guys but neither are socially acceptable, nor tolerated by the Police or the Public. When Fantino was our Chief he wanted to fire any officer caught driving impaired.

Irregardless, there are still hundreds of thousands of people in this province that drink and drive every day! It doesn't really matter if it was one beer or a glass of wine with dinner or a 60 pounder, it still happens. I used to do it (have a pint beer with wings) and drive home, when I used to drink, and sometimes I may even have blown over......

Then there is the "I've only had three or four drinks" syndrome.... Drunk people are stupid and their judgment is questionable at best.

[MazdaMatt]

Your sun quote says "20-32" over the limit. The link said they were going over 150km/h... big difference. If it was 20-32, i'd say let these guys off and fault the drunkard for killing himself. If they were going 150, everyone is at fault and they should be losing their licences and being charged heavily if not sent to jail.

Shame that the little girl has to live with the fact that her parents got drunk and killed themselves.

[Maddog]

Lets say the situation was reversed; The left turner is not drunk, and doesn't die, but the Honda driver is speeding and drunk. Do you think the left turner would have been charged knowing the other was speeding and drunk?

I don't believe he would.

[MazdaMatt]

Regardless of laws and who's charged and not charged... whatever happened to a person's sense of self-preservation? i don't make turns when there is oncoming traffic. Even if they are signaling, and even if they are slowing down. Not till i see their wheels making the turn.

Too many bone-heads out there. At least this was a case where two drunken boneheads were killed by two other boneheads who are going to jail. 4 fewer boneheads on the road. Real shame that being a bonehead has such drastic consequences...

[Slowpoke]

Have you ever seen how many drivers don't know how to make a left hand turn with oncoming left turners? Over 50% for sure. Over 50% incompetence.

They take a regular arc as if they could SEE the oncoming traffic and didn't need to stop. They can't see past the oncoming left-turners doing the same stupid thing, and end up sticking several feet of their into oncoming traffic to be able to see around the left turners in front of them. Nor do they put their wheels straight so that if they're rear-ended they get pushed into oncoming traffic. They don't Jog Left and then straighten their car in the middle of the intersection so that they can see around the left turners without entering oncoming traffic.

The nature of traffic approaching from four directions makes Intersections are the most dangerous area of the road and THEN there's the people stupid enough to run red lights.

It got so bad in Saudi Arabia with all of the different cultures that they aren't allowed to make a left in front of oncoming traffic in most large cities: the traffic lights go green from one direction at a time only. And no Right Hand Turns on Red.

Just what are all of these driving school cars out there teaching other than how to merge with highway traffic and drive 100km/h in the middle lane and never pull back right?

Driving is the most dangerous thing you do each day. Don't take it for granted.

I want red light cameras at every intersection, speed limits raised to 120 on 400 series highways for cars (100 for trucks) with photo radar to enforce it, and cops at difficult merges during rush hour (403 eastbound at ErinMills Parkway, 410 South at Queen Street) to spike the tires of people who use the shoulder to pass.

/logic

[MazdaMatt]

Have you ever seen how many drivers don't know how to make a left hand turn with oncoming left turners?

I LOATH these people.

[nrg3k_civic]

Wow! How much spin can one case really have?!? If the Honda drivers were movie stars, they'd get 1 day of community service... and there would be a movie about how horrible drunk driving is.

DJM:>

[MitS]

Your sun quote says "20-32" over the limit. The link said they were going over 150km/h... big difference. If it was 20-32, i'd say let these guys off and fault the drunkard for killing himself. If they were going 150, everyone is at fault and they should be losing their licences and being charged heavily if not sent to jail.

It's possible they were travelling at 20-32 over at time of impact and were over 150km/h before braking.

The statement about blaming the victim is pretty silly. If the driver had survived and his wife had died, he'd be charged. His death does not make him the innocent martyr the media has portrayed him as.

[Rampant WS6]

I read an interesting point on another board.

I wonder how MADD would feel about the fact that the deceased had double the legal alcohol limit in his system, made a dangerous left hand turn into oncoming traffic that was going 20-30kms over the limit and he gets portrayed as the innocent Martyr by our political machine for the manipulation of the general public as a whole. It really belittles their cause saying speeding 20-30kms per hour over the limit is a far bigger crime than driving severely drunk. Since 70-80% of the general public drives at those speeds every day, I guess impaired driving really is no big deal if taken in the context of this current court case.

Just a thought.

[John Powell]

That's a good rational summary. :)

[Lotus61]

I read an interesting point on another board.

I wonder how MADD would feel about the fact that the deceased had double the legal alcohol limit in his system, made a dangerous left hand turn into oncoming traffic that was going 20-30kms over the limit and he gets portrayed as the innocent Martyr by our political machine for the manipulation of the general public as a whole. It really belittles their cause saying speeding 20-30kms per hour over the limit is a far bigger crime than driving severely drunk. Since 70-80% of the general public drives at those speeds every day, I guess impaired driving really is no big deal if taken in the context of this current court case.

Just a thought.

And a fairly skewed one at that.

I don't see how we are supposed to draw the conclusion that driving while impaired is tolerated to a greater degree than speeding, except by gross extrapolation. The supposed level of impairment of one person does not relieve the other party of their obligation to be operating their vehicle within the bounds of the law.

In the current criminal matter the alledged level of impairment will be a point that the defence will likely use as a mitigating not abrogating factor. You can bet on it getting wider use in any civil case that may flow from the incident.

I also find the statistic that 70 - 80 percent of the vehicles on our roads are consistently being operated approximately 25 km/h over the posted limit to be fairly questionable. Lets see some hard corroborating evidence to back that one up.

Oh ya, I also view the media's use of the orphaned child to be repugnant and sets a new low in journalistic integrity. There's another oxymoron for you.

Rob

[Rampant WS6]

And a fairly skewed one at that.

I don't see how we are supposed to draw the conclusion that driving while impaired is tolerated to a greater degree than speeding, except by gross extrapolation. The supposed level of impairment of one person does not relieve the other party of their obligation to be operating their vehicle within the bounds of the law.

In the current criminal matter the alledged level of impairment will be a point that the defence will likely use as a mitigating not abrogating factor. You can bet on it getting wider use in any civil case that may flow from the incident.

I also find the statistic that 70 - 80 percent of the vehicles on our roads are consistently being operated approximately 25 km/h over the posted limit to be fairly questionable. Lets see some hard corroborating evidence to back that one up.

Oh ya, I also view the media's use of the orphaned child to be repugnant and sets a new low in journalistic integrity. There's another oxymoron for you.

Rob


I would be the first one to admitt that we the public do not know all the surrounding factors, but it does seem very suspect how they kept the impairment and its level hidden for such a long time, while inflating the estimated speeds of the accident to more than 60-70kms over.

As for my comment on speeds, I make purely from my observations every day. I personally drive no more than 10-15kms maximum over the limit as a firm rule. If I am going to be late, I have a hands free phone for that.

I am passed by at least 80% of the traffic, this is both on city streets and the 400 series highways.

You mention the medias use of the child how about the Crowns use knowing what they knew about the intoxication of the father. They used this to manipulate the media and court.

I do believe that we need to better control our speeds, we also need to raise the 400 series highway speeds to 110 outside of the city limits. Maybe double the speeding fines, not this 20x increase, $500-$10,000. They are also using the new Street Racing law to call anthing street racing so we can turn this into a gross cash grab. I bet that any of the people that have been creating this law and its mutants to come, have all the contacts in the world to keep it from happening to them or their cronies.

It should never happen to me due to the fact that I keep my speed in check. I drive my 600hp car even a little slower than my daily car, just to be on the safe side. What I fear is this Draconian State approach to laws taking my rights away at a single persons whim on the roadside. All this talk of modified cars being the equivilant of a fully automatic gun, any car is a deadly weapon, like the soccer mom going 40 over while on the phone weaving through morning traffic.

I am just an every day tax paying guy, that respects my fellow man. Not the same can be said for the manipulative Crown or the politicians involved in this case and making these laws.

[Lotus61]

I would be the first one to admitt that we the public do not know all the surrounding factors, but it does seem very suspect how they kept the impairment and its level hidden for such a long time, while inflating the estimated speeds of the accident to more than 60-70kms over.

You can bet your bottom dollar that the defence knew about the alledged impairment in a timely fashion. The accident made the news at the time as did the conclusion of the criminal matter, that's all. There are many processes that occur in between those times that doesn't hit the papers or become public knowledge. It doesn't necessarily mean there is some cover up of the facts.


As for my comment on speeds, I make purely from my observations every day. I personally drive no more than 10-15kms maximum over the limit as a firm rule. If I am going to be late, I have a hands free phone for that.

I am passed by at least 80% of the traffic, this is both on city streets and the 400 series highways.

Don't take this the wrong way but unless you know the total number of vehicles occupying a set space on the highway how can a person determine the ratio of those travelling faster than any other. Unfortunately speculation is another term for guessing. ;)


You mention the medias use of the child how about the Crowns use knowing what they knew about the intoxication of the father. They used this to manipulate the media and court.

Absolutely correct in saying I should have included the Crown's decision placing the girl in that position. The courtroom is no place for a child of tender years whether or not the father was impaired. On the other hand, they did not splash her all over the six o'clock news with complete coverage from her bedroom. I'm sure you know that Crown Attorneys and police investigators do not release personal information relating to potential witnesses, especially child witnesses. I'd be interested in learning how the media found and contacted the child.

Manipulation can be an ugly term when being directed towards persons and not puppets. Both the Crown and defence have an opportunity to put forward their views of the evidence provided. When it comes right down to it, the term 'court' really means the judge. Few things are more sacred to a judge than their perceived independence. I doubt any of them would appreciate you believing they were manipulated.


It should never happen to me due to the fact that I keep my speed in check. I drive my 600hp car even a little slower than my daily car, just to be on the safe side. What I fear is this Draconian State approach to laws taking my rights away at a single persons whim on the roadside. All this talk of modified cars being the equivilant of a fully automatic gun, any car is a deadly weapon, like the soccer mom going 40 over while on the phone weaving through morning traffic.

Excellent points. Remember though that you receive the priviledge of using the highway as long as you follow the guidelines or the laws set down. The laws haven't changed only the potential penalties have been dramatically increased. I haven't met any officers who have taken enforcement action based solely on a 'whim'.

I am just an every day tax paying guy, that respects my fellow man.

That's what our society should be based on, with a little less emphasis on the taxing paying part.

Rob

[Rampant WS6]

I haven't met any officers who have taken enforcement action based solely on a 'whim'.

Rob

Over my 27 years of driving I have met some very fair and honest officers. I have also met a few that flat out lied and I had no chance at all of proving them wrong, since their word is considered more credible than mine.

Those few are the ones that scare the hell out of me. One of them, a rookie I was able to prove my case and the other, a 25 year veteran, since weather had nothing to do with it I had no way of proving anything, in all honesty I had been speeding a little, I saw him and slowed to the legal speed, with out braking, before he could clock from behind so he gave me a failing to signal a lane change ticket, it was a blatant lie. It was a small fine, but still had points. He testified and lied, on the Bible, plain and simple. If he can lie about that, what else can he justify in his own mind. I have had no issues in 7 years now, and none for 7 years prior to that summers ticket. There are corrupt actions that take place on a road side by a lone officer. I beleive this is a rare occurence, but it happened to me.

Please do not get me wrong, I think that the Police have one of if not one the most thankless jobs there is. It is also one of the most easily abused one's as well if they have no checks and balances to keep it fair.

[tanney]

Over my 27 years of driving I have met some very fair and honest officers. I have also met a few that flat out lied and I had no chance at all of proving them wrong, since their word is considered more credible than mine.

I have witnessed two court cases where the police officer "blatantly lied" so the conviction would stand. One was thrown out with a comment from the judge that "maybe he was having personal problems at home" and the other was dropped to a lesser charge after the person defending spoke up and said "the officer was lying".

Neither should have been in court....

Gotta love tickets for failing to wear a seat belt when all occupants were indeed wearing them. The cop was doing 97 in the right hand lane of the 401 near Shannonville (actually directly in front of SMP) and pulled over the first car with enough nerve to actually pass him, doing 101.... Since he had no grounds for charges, he made one up! Nice! That was the not the first, and definitely not the last of encounters with "cops with attitudes". But yes, most police are down to earth real people, just like you and I only with uniforms.

[Keith-02Accord]

I have had the same thing happen to me. I was doing 65 in a 60 b/c I pulled next to a police officer at a red light. I.e...I knew she was right there.

She tagged me for a few clicks, pulled up beside me, backed off, and pulled me over. Asked her why...says I'm not wearing my seat belt, I said of course not, I had to take it off to get my wallet out (I did this right after I was stopped) She said I didn't have it on when she pulled beside me (flat out lie, but I wasn't worried b/c I had a slightly tinted window and a black leather jacket on...good luck having that one stick up in court).

Then she says, oh well uh do you know what the speed limit is on this road. I said 60. Do you know how fast you were travelling. I said my speedo read 65. She said, oh no, you were doing 75! Flat out lie #2.

I was able to punch a hole in her testimony and was able to get her to admit me being beside her in a marked cruiser at a red light prior to her tagging me. I said to the judge "Even if I wanted to speed, it would be a silly thing to do knowing that a police officer was there." He agreed and convicted me for 5 km over. Since I was only 19 at the time, my insurance went up as if I was nailed doing 40 over. So in the end, I was still punished for 3 years for doing nothing unsafe.

Having said that, I HONESTLY BELIEVE THE VAST MAJORITY OF OFFICERS DO A GREAT AND THANKLESS JOB, but this legislation makes it easier for them to punish people w/o a trial.

[Rampant WS6]

Not sure of the odds of this happening so close to these discussions but:

On my way to Timmies for a Java this morning going along Spruce, for those that know Burlington. It is a 40km zone with several cross streets and 2 way stops on the cross streets. I am doing the speed limit and a cop car runs a stop sign right into my path! I slam on the brakes missing her by maybe 1-2ft if that, but just barely though and she gives me a dirty look and drives on! WTF Closest I have been to hitting another car in a very long time.

I would have loved to see the results if the table was turned with me running a stop sign. I would be written up for the works. but she gets to give me a dirty look. I guess it was my fault street racing along at 40kph over zero.

It just pisses me off that they want to give these people the right the hammer us at the road side without any checks or balances to protect our rights. I know the intent of the laws are good, but there has to be a burden of proof and not one persons heresay that is considered golden.

[gatherer]

did you get the number of the call.. one call to complaint department at the police station letting them know is all you need to do ... if that officer continue to do the running of the stop sign they will eventually be repremanded.

[Rampant WS6]

did you get the number of the call.. one call to complaint department at the police station letting them know is all you need to do ... if that officer continue to do the running of the stop sign they will eventually be repremanded.

and if she got my plate number, my life becomes hell. Not worth the risk IMHO.

I am just saying that all people have bad days, even the best of us. I do not want to get pulled over on those days. You may get a lot more than you deserve with little or no recourse.

[Maddog]

Nice letter written by someone that I found on another forum...not sure where the letter was sent, but it should be sent to the idiot Fantino, and Liberal clowns, along with everyones local MPP.

"It just seems like our rights and freedoms as drivers are being whittled away because of political agendas and misinformation," Durocher wrote in an e-mail.

In response to a couple of deadly Toronto incidents that seemed more linked to that city's growing ethnic gang culture than to racing, the Liberals have been threatening to impose a Draconian crackdown on street racing across the province.

Durocher says the statistics don't back up the government's claim there is a "crisis" on our roads. According to his research, police chases actually cause more deaths in North America than outlaw racers do.

I'm sure Ron is even more disappointed today to learn that the provincial Conservatives have not only jumped on Premier McGuinty's streetracing "crisis" bandwagon but are advocating even more severe action.

Under the Conservatives' proposed law -- which you can be sure will part of their election campaign this fall -- any vehicle caught traveling more than 50 km over the speed limit would be confiscated on the spot for a week.

You have to wonder if that law would apply to certain well-known local speed demons in the legal profession, local industry, and some close family members of police officers who brag about their immunity from tickets. There certainly could be a lot of cars in our local impound lot. And that's not even counting the flood of American speeders on Highway 401 who know they are immune to our current laws . . .

Anyway, here's Ron's letter, which he titled The Myths About Street Racing:

"Recently, there has been much in print and much grandstanding by politicians, Attorney Generals and Police Commissioners about how street racing is an "epidemic."

"Sadly, Joe Public eats it all up since he/she really has no clue and no way or verifying if what the talking heads are saying is true. How do I know this? Well that's because Canada doesn't compile and keep statistics on the causes of accidents, which would include those by street racing.

"As an auto enthusiast and an engineer for an automotive manufacturing company, I take a keen interest in all things automotive. So I decided to do much research on the topic so that I could make my own decisions. With little info available here, I had to turn to the US. By all accounts, street racing is a much more serious problem in the US than it is here. Well after coming up emtpy for statistics from Transport Canada, I found a wealth of information from the National Highway Safety Administration FARS (Fatality Analysis Accident Reporting System) statistics. Street racing has been included in the FARS database since 1998.

"The statistics, to say the least, were eye opening. Far from being a scourge of the highways, street racing accounts for very few traffic deaths. From 1998-2005, there were 304,236 fatalities on U.S. roads. Of these, a mere 353 (0.12 per cent) were from street racing. For comparitive purposes, I also looked at other common causes. Talking on a cellphone, another dangerous driving habit much hyped by police and the media was only slightly less dangerous at 327 deaths (0.11 per cent).

"Bear in mind, millions of Canadians talk on cell phones daily; an act statistically as dangerous as street racing.

"Driving slower than the posted speed limit (429 deaths, 0.14 per cent) accounted for more deaths. Surprisingly, being distracted by something inside the vehicle, such as talking to a passenger, adjusting a mirror, fiddling with a radio or eating caused an eye-opening 38,914 deaths (12.79 per cent).

"Again, this is something plenty of people do every day while driving. Some of the highest trained street drivers in the world, police officers, caused nearly four times the fatalities (1,357, 0.44 per cent) of street racers!

"But these all pale in comparison to drunk driving. Nearly 144,000 people were killed by drunk drivers in the U.S., a staggering 44 per cent of all fatalities. Canada isn't much better. Drunk driving here is responsible for at least 30 per cent of all fatalities, claiming sometimes over 1,000 victims per year.

"By contrast I've been only able to find less than a dozen deaths caused by street racing in Canada for the last two years combined.

"And now there's been talk from the Attorney General about impounding and crushing cars of street racers. Why such a harsh punishment for something that is more or less insignificant statistically? Easy. These street racers are generally young people. And young people have no money to defend themselves in a court of law. So it's easy for the agenda-driven police and politicians to "show" that they are cracking down and being tough on this "epidemic" of street racing.

"Now, let's imagine for a second that the police and politicians changed the laws so that the cars of drunk drivers, the most dangerous group of killers on Canadian roads, were crushed. The outcry would be IMMENSE to say the least. Drunk drivers include people from every walk of life. Judges, teachers, politicians, police, journalists, engineers you name it. And more alarming, these people drive drunk multiple times! Even with suspended licenses.

"The fact is "street racers" are being centered out for political reasons but mainly because they are easy pickings. What a better group to target than a group of people perceived as dangerous drivers that can't defend themselves.

"Don't get me wrong here. Street racing is stupid, irresponsible and downright dangerous. But is it the threat to humanity we have been reading about? Certainly not.

"The average person doesn't know the facts and has no idea where to look for them. They are being lied to and are being fed a plate full of bull****. (Last month) the Commissioner of the OPP said that we need a fleet of airplanes to combat street racing! Are you kidding me? A fleet of airplanes? And he had the audacity to say that the cost would be "minimal" and that they would pay for themselves by saving tens of thousands of lives!!

"A fleet or airplanes that require engine overhauls every 1,500 hours at a cost of $15,000 each!! And we need these to get a very small number of nut jobs off the road?And guess who will buy into this and be the ones paying for this? Yes . . . the same people who have no idea that this isn't really a problem . .

Ron Durocher
Harrow

[Keith-02Accord]

A very well written letter.

[Lotus61]

Over my 27 years of driving I have met some very fair and honest officers. I have also met a few that flat out lied and I had no chance at all of proving them wrong, since their word is considered more credible than mine.

Those few are the ones that scare the hell out of me. One of them, a rookie I was able to prove my case and the other, a 25 year veteran, since weather had nothing to do with it I had no way of proving anything, in all honesty I had been speeding a little, I saw him and slowed to the legal speed, with out braking, before he could clock from behind so he gave me a failing to signal a lane change ticket, it was a blatant lie. It was a small fine, but still had points. He testified and lied, on the Bible, plain and simple. If he can lie about that, what else can he justify in his own mind. I have had no issues in 7 years now, and none for 7 years prior to that summers ticket. There are corrupt actions that take place on a road side by a lone officer. I beleive this is a rare occurence, but it happened to me.

Please do not get me wrong, I think that the Police have one of if not one the most thankless jobs there is. It is also one of the most easily abused one's as well if they have no checks and balances to keep it fair.

It is always frustrating to hear about these type of incidents.

[tanney]

Tuesday I watched a cop in a marked cruiser talking on a cell phone go through a red light at the corner of Evans and Kipling.....:rolleyes:

[mbanovsky]

I noticed the discussion has died down somewhat on this thread…but a co-worker directed me to it and I decided to post a list of ten thoughts.

1) Instead of a $2 million OPP plane, (or two Veyrons…) there should be a special high-speed enforcement unit of 5 or so unmarked (all-weather 240kph-capable) cars, driven by ex-racing drivers or extremely competent officers. They’d be given special powers (similar to TTC or UofT) special constables with the ability to cite drivers for dangerous maneuvers like rapid lane changes, tailgating (less than two car lengths is too close) not using signals, using on-ramps to gain an advantage during traffic jams, etc. The point is to safely and quickly pull someone over, log their plate number, issue a ticket, and get on to the next. I’m not suggesting this as a bad made-for-TV movie, but I suspect the public would respond better to tickets that can’t be thought of as a cash grab. If you get three of these, enjoy two days of mandatory driver training.

2) Take goddamn parallel parking off of the driver’s test. Have five years of graduated licensing, with one important caveat: provisional insurance until a mandatory one-day driver training/car control course is successfully completed. Give people six months to take the course, and if they can’t pass it, put ‘em back to square one. Phase in the one-day car control course for older, already-licensed drivers and new arrivals to Canada. I’d suggest basic mechanical training but who needs to change tires or check the oil nowadays? ;) And of course, have the government work with the insurance industry to reward qualified or low-risk drivers with better premiums.

3) Enforce left-lane hogs like excessive speeders — if there’s enough room to pass on the right, there was enough room for them to move aside. Introduce two flashes of the high beams as a warning to upcoming traffic, only if there is space for them to move over. “Keep right except to pass” tattooed on every driver in the country.

4) Trucks limited to 105kph with a +5kph 30 second “push-to-pass” button. No truck, bus (GO Transit are the worst), RV, or large trailer allowed in the passing lane except in an emergency. The reason? Visibility.

5) Tickets for drivers who fail to accelerate to the speed limit when entering the highway. That encourages people to use the centre lane in order to “stay out of everyone’s way”… If the budget was there, putting traffic signals on on-ramps seems to help traffic flow. I wouldn’t mind if they were always active. They may cause backups on surface streets, but highway traffic should be given priority because highways are transportation conduits.

6) Winter tires should be compulsory. Not to argue this point — I’ve gotten through the winter on summers — but people need to be more proactive at understanding traction and vehicle maintenance. After all, pretty much every car is thousands of parts and 3000+ lbs. of pain. I still can’t believe how many fully-loaded vans I see in February rolling on M+S with 2/32 tread depth…

7) Stepped speed limits. I don’t see us going the way of unlimited speed limits, so… For three-lane highways, right lane should be minimum 100 — 110kph, centre lane 105kph — 115kph, left lane 110kph—120kph. Speeding more than 20kph over the limit in a specific lane means a license suspension. I pulled those outta my ass, butt for good reason: I’ve found the biggest impedance of traffic flow and increase in travel time as a result of inattentive centre-and-left lane hogs.

8) You’re thinking: “Won’t everyone want to drive in the left lane?” No. Permit a maximum of five cars in a row, give or take a few minutes of people flowing in-and-out as traffic dictates.

9) I also suggest treating two-or-more lanes of city traffic as a highway, IE “keep right except to pass.”

10) Finally, since highways and major streets handle the bulk of traffic, treat rural roads with discretionary limits. Place mobile speed limit signs on those roads, in a range of say, 60kph to 90kph with periodic police spot checks. I don’t advocate placing an officer behind a cardboard cactus on a rural road with a speed gun — but it’s a good idea to keep people thinking about the act of driving, instead of setting the cruise, barking on the phone, eating breakfast, etc.


Required reading: Sign-less towns (http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,448747,00.html)

Excerpt: “The result is that drivers find themselves enclosed by a corset of prescriptions, so that they develop a kind of tunnel vision: They're constantly in search of their own advantage, and their good manners go out the window.”


M!

[StewPiddass]

Wow! mbanovsky for President!!!

[mbanovsky]

Wow! mbanovsky for President!!!

Well, Minister of Transportation first...cheers...


M!

[JoeT]

Well, Minister of Transportation first...cheers...


M!



Prime Minister, or at least the provincial big cheeze. Our current Minister of Transport seems to "not care". There have been numerous forums with which she's granted an audience to motorsports and tuner enthusiasts, and things still keep on getting passed.

Michael Bryant is a knee jerk reactionist, focusing on sensationalism rather than reality. Just like other typical politicians whose main focus is self preservation, rather than maintaining integrity and standing up for what's right.

So, you get my vote!!!

[MazdaMatt]

I am for some of your ideas, against others. Driver training should be compulsory and driver evaluation throughout a driver's life as well.

105 for trucks? Push to pass? bull... cap them all at 100km/h. My father owns a trucking company and all his rigs are capped at or below 100. His company has one an award for safest in ontario.

A lot of those traffic-control rules just aren't enforcable, or ARE enforcable and police just don't bother. I have never seen or heard of someone pulled over for tailgating. Its like its only illegal if you actually hit someone, and even then its usually excused.

I personally think that tickets should be handed out like grocery store fliers. If the rules were actually enforced *without prejudice* then the rules would be re-written to suit the actual needs of our public.

Police don't pull over speeders if there's no harm done... er... TILL there is harm done.

blah blah /rant

[nrg3k_civic]

Police don't pull over speeders if there's no harm done... er... TILL there is harm done.

By that token, driving a modified car is effectively 'harm', according to Michael Bryant. Many people who aren't speeding, or are going 5 over 'with the flow of traffic' are pulled over and handed a ticket for something completely pointless that gets dropped in court (suspension too low when its perfectly fine, exhaust too loud without testing with a db meter, etc). Its the imbalance of how tickets are handed out that is a real pain for many drivers... If politicians and police focused on tailgating, unsafe lane changes, driving slow in the passing lane, etc , there wouldn't be anything to put on the front page of the newspaper.

DJM:>

[mbanovsky]

If politicians and police focused on tailgating, unsafe lane changes, driving slow in the passing lane, etc , there wouldn't be anything to put on the front page of the newspaper.

There would be something for the front page:

SHOCKER!! Making people accountable and aware of their actions actually increases safety.


M!

[Rampant WS6]

This is why you can not give this type of authority to one officer on a road side. This is what I fear, he is one in 10,000 or more, but it will happen. A bad attitude cop on one of his bad days.

Do you want this guy to have this law to play with.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2715792117793977759&hl=en

[P90Puma]

This is why you can not give this type of authority to one officer on a road side. This is what I fear, he is one in 10,000 or more, but it will happen. A bad attitude cop on one of his bad days.

Do you want this guy to have this law to play with.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2715792117793977759&hl=en

Can't see the link @ work, but I am assuming it is the cop who hassled the kid in the parking lot.

Like it or not, we are a minority. The powers that be have decided to royally screw us over, there are cops like that link, and you had better pray you had not run into one with the new laws that are coming into play (at the end of the month IIRC.)

Noone is going to be up in arms protesting this law, we are stuck with it. Whoever gets elected will not rescind this new law. They would be commiting political suicide.

[Brent]

My $.02 worth.

Alot more people die each year from suicide than in car accidents.
The main reason for the focus being on drivers is money. Insurance companies money.

If the goal of the government is to save lives, harrassing free citizens of a free country, while they drive their cars is wrong. First off it is not the number one cause of death, second their harrassment leads to an increase in the stress and depression among the citizens that are more likely to kill themselves than die in a car accident or kill somebody else in an accident.

Canada is supposed to be a democracy where we the people make the rules. The rules are not made by a higher power and forced upon us. If this is the case we are living in a totalitarian state not a democracy.

According to the Canadian charter of rights and freedoms under mobility rights.

9) Everyone has the right NOT to be arbitrarily detained or imprisioned.

I have been stopped by the OPP five times in three years. Each time I had done nothing wrong and received no tickets. I was arbitrarily stopped to see if I had been drinking (4 times) and one time because was the cop was curious.

So, five times in the last three years my rights have been violated by the people who are supposed enforce the laws and my RIGHTS. That is why they have RIDE because stopping people arbitrarily is against the law.

Be forwarned the OPP have their own personal agenda that does not conform to the laws of our country, CANADA. Many of my ancestors and Canadians died in battle to win the rights we have today. You have a responsibility to those that have died for your rights to make sure you don't give them away.
To do whatever is necessary to regain them.

When you are pulled over arbitrarily understand that you are being threatened to comply with their illegal act. Threatened first with illegal forcible confinment, assault, assault with a weapon and possibly death. What do you think would happen if you refused to comply with their illegal requests?

The purpose of the RIDE program is to put fear into the population. It is not a new idea of picking on one part of society with great force to scare the others into complying with the laws. Hitler wrote about it long before he used it.

Also, there is a higher rate of criminals per capita in the police then there is of criminals in the general population. When you are stopped the police officer has a weapon to protect himself incase you are a criminal, the problem is that he is more likely to be a criminal than you. Even if he isn't a criminal he will knowingly enforce illegal acts. I think we need the guns.

The government of Canada and Ontario have removed the Christian God from its laws and replaced it with a new more powerful all incompassing god, the god of political correctness. The god of political correctness now is more poweful than a majority vote. Either bow to the god of political correctness or use your vote and use it wisely.

Freedom comes at the highest cost, the longer we wait the higher the cost. Use your vote and tell your politicians, that your freedom is not negotiable that you will not live in a totalitarian state.

A people who loses their rights has the right to revolt.

If the police will not follow the laws of the land why should we. If might is right it may be time for a non political solution.


Watch the movies 300, Braveheart and Saving Private Ryan. That is what it took to get the freedom you have today. Tell the millions of souls that died for your rights that you were too tired to vote, to scared to back up what they have done for you.

Brent Harrington

[Maddog]

This is why you can not give this type of authority to one officer on a road side. This is what I fear, he is one in 10,000 or more, but it will happen. A bad attitude cop on one of his bad days.

Do you want this guy to have this law to play with.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2715792117793977759&hl=en

F**kin pig! :mad:

[Steve Moore]

Brent, after reading your rant there, I think you need to take your medication. As for Maddog, not sure your remark is really required on a public motorsports forum. I think we can all agree the officer was out of line and should be fired, don't paint us all with the same brush.

[JoeT]

Brent, after reading your rant there, I think you need to take your medication. As for Maddog, not sure your remark is really required on a public motorsports forum. I think we can all agree the officer was out of line and should be fired, don't paint us all with the same brush.

The officer in that video was fired, I've been in the same situation as the 20 year old. The difference is I'm over 40. Seems as if "some" rookies have a chip on their shoulder, and I wish I had a camera. Not in the GTA, but in Alexendria, eastern Ontario.


http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/D46A8EE4AB8299A68625735D000200C0?OpenDocument


ST. GEORGE — A police officer who was recorded berating a motorist earlier this month has lost his job.

The board of aldermen voted 5-0, with one member absent, to fire Sgt. James Kuehnlein on Monday. The vote was cast in a session closed to the public and wasn't announced until Wednesday, when a notice was posted at the City Hall of this tiny south St. Louis County community.

In a video that got wide viewership on the Internet, Kuehnlein taunts and threatens motorist Brett Darrow, 20, sometimes shouting and using profanity, after questioning him in a commuter lot near Interstate 55. Darrow posted the footage of the Sept. 7 incident on the web.

Darrow had met with St. George Police Chief Scott Uhrig after the incident to ask that Kuehnlein be fired. He said he's pleased that the officer is now off the city's force.

"It's what I wanted the whole time," Darrow said Thursday night. "The conduct was not forgivable."

Uhrig said he recommended that the board of aldermen fire Kuehnlein based both on his language in the tape and because he violated department policy. That's because Kuehnlein should have been taping the encounter himself with his police car's camera.

No such footage could be found, though the camera is functional, Uhrig said.

The incident and the firing of Kuehnlein was the talk of the monthly board of aldermen meeting Thursday night, which was moved from the tiny City Hall to a community center to accommodate an expected overflow crowd.

About 30 people showed up, some defending their town and saying they were proud of their police force.

"This city needs to keep its own police department," said Mike Mosier, a former St. Louis police officer who has lived in St. George for 42 years.

Others complained about police problems.

Alderman Carmen Wilkerson said she fielded dozens of calls from residents in recent days. She said many were from residents who said they were humiliated and embarrassed by the incident.

Aldermen said they planned to review how officers are hired and said the city attorney had looked into the cost of having St. Louis County patrol the city.

Kuehnlein's attorney, Travis L. Noble, said the officer received a letter Thursday detailing the reasons for his firing. Noble said he would review the letter with his client before deciding on a course of action.

[Maddog]

Brent, after reading your rant there, I think you need to take your medication. As for Maddog, not sure your remark is really required on a public motorsports forum. I think we can all agree the officer was out of line and should be fired, don't paint us all with the same brush.I don't have to paint all of you with the same brush, but I won't need many brushes. Every time I've had the unfortunate opportunity to deal with cops, it's been nothing by "holier than thou" attitudes. Not to mention that in my 36 years, I have only had to require their services once, AND THEY FAILED ME. So I took matters in my own hands, and resolved the issue myself. But that's a whole other story.:rolleyes:

I understand they don't make the laws, but they also don't need the cocky attitudes because they have a 9mm on their side.

[Brent]

Brent, after reading your rant there, I think you need to take your medication.


Steve, make me.

[SE-R Racer]

My $.02 worth.

Watch the movies 300, Braveheart and Saving Private Ryan. That is what it took to get the freedom you have today.


Lol...remind me to thank Tom Hanks and Mel Gibson...I didn't realize they had saved the world.

[Brent]

Lol...remind me to thank Tom Hanks and Mel Gibson...I didn't realize they had saved the world.

SE-R Racer, make me.

If you have racer in your name shouldn't you be even close to being fast?

What is like up Perrys' ass anyhow?

[Mazda6smtx]

I have a similar story about the Toronto Police. I was at Home Depot and as soon as I parked my car I was asked for my license and paper. I had nothing to hide so I gave them to the office I did nothing wrong. After waiting for about 20 mins, he come back and gives me a trespassing ticket. Sure it's only $65 but now I have to take a day off work to fight it. All he says is, "I don't want to see you around here anymore."

So in a situation like that what am I supposed to do, not give him my info then he thinks I'm hiding something and give me more trouble or do I listen and get harassed.

Needless to say I'm not a fan of the police, every time I see a cop I get nervous, not knowing what they are going to do to me and I have no chance to defend myself. In court of law when it's their word vs yours, you have no chance.

[StewPiddass]

Geez Brent, you're not around often but when you do come around... LOL

Whatcha been up to lately anyway? You haven't been to any TLMC events to blow off any steam it would appear...

[Keith-02Accord]

I have a similar story about the Toronto Police. I was at Home Depot and as soon as I parked my car I was asked for my license and paper. I had nothing to hide so I gave them to the office I did nothing wrong. After waiting for about 20 mins, he come back and gives me a trespassing ticket. Sure it's only $65 but now I have to take a day off work to fight it. All he says is, "I don't want to see you around here anymore."

So in a situation like that what am I supposed to do, not give him my info then he thinks I'm hiding something and give me more trouble or do I listen and get harassed.

Needless to say I'm not a fan of the police, every time I see a cop I get nervous, not knowing what they are going to do to me and I have no chance to defend myself. In court of law when it's their word vs yours, you have no chance.

WTF! What a load of crap. On what basis were you trespassing? Please tell me the JP threw it out. And I hope you testified to what he said to you.

[Mazda6smtx]

My court date is set for April 2008. I have a letter from the Home Depot Manager stating I had business on the property and I was wrongly ticketed. Even after showing this to the prosecution attorney I still had to book a court date. They told me they wanted to hear to officer's story.

[Travis]

My court date is set for April 2008. I have a letter from the Home Depot Manager stating I had business on the property and I was wrongly ticketed. Even after showing this to the prosecution attorney I still had to book a court date. They told me they wanted to hear to officer's story.

Here's what I would do:

You should expect that the prosecutor will try to have your letter thrown out on some technicality, and I would not be surprised if the judge somehow agreed. If you're not planning on getting a lawyer, I highly suggest bringing the Home Depot Manager to court as a witness. Not only will that hold up in court far better, but it will also bring more attention to how ridiculous the situation was. Don't let the prosecutor realize that you've brought the witness until you call him. Don't give that bastard a chance to drop the case now that he's rejected your effort to save the court's time by using the letter.

Once you win, write a complaint letter regarding the officer to the police commissioner, and a complaint letter regarding the prosecutor to the attorney general. Include a copy of each to the local newspapers.

If you don't raise a huge stink each time stuff like this happens, history shows that it will gradually get worse.

[MDeeez]

My court date is set for April 2008. I have a letter from the Home Depot Manager stating I had business on the property and I was wrongly ticketed. Even after showing this to the prosecution attorney I still had to book a court date. They told me they wanted to hear to officer's story.

Make sure you have written notes of what happened. This way you can have your own written notes just like the officer has because that is what he will refer to. Make sure it is detailed with things like driving into the parking lot, when or if the officer put on his lights, what you went to home depot for, what you bought, etc, etc. It works because they can't throw out your notes of what happened otherwise they can't use the officers notes. And your notes were written down right after you came out of the store from shopping because you were so bothered by what happened. And if you have the bill from the store with what you bought then it's a slam dunk win.

Been down this road a couple times and won every time. No one ever expects you to have written notes. Good luck with it

[Mazda6smtx]

I had a few people come and ask me what happened, other guy in a civic came to talk to me cause he liked my car, and I have his business card, he said I could call him as a witness and he would show up. Then again I don't know what counts as a credible witness since on my ticket it says there were no witness' when there clearly was.

I thought at least they had to give you a warning before a ticket like this, like a please leave or something to that effect and if you didn't you would get the ticket.

[John Powell]

Who owns the property where the alleged offence happened? Has the owner or one of their authourized "servants" (e.g. a rent-a-cop) previously asked you to leave their property and warned you that if you entered it again they would have you charged with trespassing? If not ask them (or subpoena them) to send an authorized "servant" to testify whether or not they asked that you be charged and the reason. From what I remember from my farming experience, trespassing is a civil offence, and a charge can only be laid by or on the authority of the owner. A police or by-law officer cannot lay a charge of trespassing on their own volition unless the owner of the property has given some sort of standing permission to do so, and with specified criteria of when to lay a charge. There is also a requirement that the property must be posted in such a manner and with such content that a person entering the property can reasonably determine whether or not they are committing a trespass.

That's basically from memory, so it may not be entirely up-to-date, but if you were charged without warning, there may be something else going on here of which you haven't been informed. I suggest you do a bit of digging around, especially to see what the property owner says or if there are any readily visible signs on the property. After you've done this, it may be worth while to consult a lawyer because, if you are innocent of trespass and the owner/police officer failed in any of their responsibilities under the law, you may be able to sue the bastards for false arrest. :D And if you succeed, you can bet that that will go down on the cop's performance review/record. :D :D

[Mazda6smtx]

I'm telling you exactly what happened: I got out of my car, asked for my info, gave it, got the ticket. I was literally out of my car for 30 seconds if that.

I have permission from the property owner saying I was allowed to be there in writing with the company's proper letter head, and signature. So I don't see how anything the officer can say will stand up in court. I mean it's $65 ticket, but it's the principle which is why I'm fighting this. It will cost me more to take the time off work to go to court then pay it.

[Steve Moore]

John, you are correct, police officers cannot lay a tresspass charge on private property without instruction from the property owner. There must be signs present and a tresspass notice onfile with the police for an officer to lay the charge. Or as also mentioned the individual had previously recieved a tresspass notice by security or management and was known to police and subsequently observed back on said property.

Mazda6smtx if the story is as you tell it and you have it properly documented and a letter from the property owner then you will win the case.

John was however incorrect in saying its false arrest, if you only received a Provincial Offence notice at the scene. Had you been Arrested, it would have involved being handcuffed or placed in a cruiser or taken to the station.

Anyway Ive wasted enough time on this, Ive got a car to prep for Celebration.

[John Powell]

... John was however incorrect in saying its false arrest, if you only received a Provincial Offence notice at the scene. Had you been Arrested, it would have involved being handcuffed or placed in a cruiser or taken to the station.

Ooops, forgot that ... another "senior moment"? :rolleyes:

Anyway Ive wasted enough time on this, Ive got a car to prep for Celebration.

Lucky sod. ;) Mine's still sitting in the garage on axle stands due to lack of money and other issues. :( Good luck with the Jag Steve. :)

[AFB Race]

:) I got a ticket years ago for doing a burn out in my own driveway, and I lived in the sticks the closest house was a mile away and upwind, the officer was just patrolling by( he did say cool car & asked to look under the hood, no I didn`t let him look) but took it to court and beat it but lost a couple days pay because the officer didn`t show the first time and I thought it was going to get tossed out, the crown & judge were buddies I think, because it was held over for a month. That was the event that turned me off police and courts( except Steve who is a cool guy, I like the dog, and the Cat :D )

[finboy]

I have a similar story about the Toronto Police. I was at Home Depot and as soon as I parked my car I was asked for my license and paper. I had nothing to hide so I gave them to the office I did nothing wrong. After waiting for about 20 mins, he come back and gives me a trespassing ticket. Sure it's only $65 but now I have to take a day off work to fight it. All he says is, "I don't want to see you around here anymore."

So in a situation like that what am I supposed to do, not give him my info then he thinks I'm hiding something and give me more trouble or do I listen and get harassed.

Needless to say I'm not a fan of the police, every time I see a cop I get nervous, not knowing what they are going to do to me and I have no chance to defend myself. In court of law when it's their word vs yours, you have no chance.


Q: did this happen during business hours?
if so, do you have a copy of a receipt or return?

Q: were you on private property? if so, then tell him to SYD
and wait till your car is on a "highway"

Q: have you sent a notice for FULL DISCLOSURE?

[finboy]

What is like up Perrys' ass anyhow?


:eek:

[Mazda6smtx]

Q: did this happen during business hours?
if so, do you have a copy of a receipt or return?

Q: were you on private property? if so, then tell him to SYD
and wait till your car is on a "highway"

Q: have you sent a notice for FULL DISCLOSURE?


I don't have a receipt because I left as soon as I got the ticket.

Yes it was on private property.

No, I don't know what I have to do to get full disclosure. I tried it once but nothing happened. What are the proper procedures for this?

[finboy]

keith.. you'll love this one

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2715792117793977759


http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/EF3667C80165B68086257353001498DC?OpenDocument

[Keith-02Accord]

Yeah, I saw these! I think somebody posted them earlier in the thread. What can you say really! I did read that the office got fired by the chief.

[finboy]

I don't have a receipt because I left as soon as I got the ticket.
so you were there as a customer during business hours? is that right? if so
I have no idea why the cop would even lay a traspassing charge, and i'm sure
the crown will as well


Yes it was on private property.

they can ask you for your details but you don't have to give it to them (if it happens again ask the cop if you are have to provide it to them
while you are on private property)


No, I don't know what I have to do to get full disclosure. I tried it once but nothing happened. What are the proper procedures for this?

once you visit the court office and request a trial, and if you have the option to check off you want the constable present

then after once you receive your trial notice, you send a letter requesting full disclosure to the crowns office.

it's actually a very simple letter, that anyone charged with an offense
can receive.

in otherwords.. you find out what cards they have in their hand, before you even make a move

[Mazda6smtx]

I received the letter for court a while ago and it says then the officer will be there. So what is the address to the Crown Attorney's Office, and who do I direct the letter to? What if I don't receive anything before the trail date?

[John Powell]

The CA's office should be in your phone book in the Government pages. Give them a call and they should be able to give you an address and who to address the letter to. (Sorry...bad grammar, but this is a quick post.)

[Cliff96]

The CA's office should be in your phone book in the Government pages. Give them a call and they should be able to give you an address and who to address the letter to. (Sorry...bad grammar, but this is a quick post.)

+make sure its a registered letter so they cant use the "it got lost in the mail excuse"