SoloSprint Competitor Meeting 1-5 pm October 27, 2007 [Archive]

James Mewett

09-26-2007, 09:43 PM

SoloSprint will be holding a technical meeting at the Delta Chelsea in Markham on October 27, 2007 from 1 - 5 pm, prior to the SoloOntario Banquet. Solo 2 will be having their meeting at the same location from 9 am to 1 pm.

In accordance with section 3.10.1 of the SoloSprint Regulations "Any interested SoloSprint competitor may submit a proposed future regulation change regarding vehicle modifications." This meeting is your opportunity to do so or to speak on any aspect of the SoloSprint Regulations and to propose any changes to them.

Prior to this meeting the CCC will be preparing an analysis of this year's results. This may lead the CCC to recommend changes to the Regulations. If so, such changes will be introduced for discussion at this meeting.

James Mewett
SoloSprint Car Classification Committee Chair

Dave Barker

09-26-2007, 11:40 PM

How about PIPing aero devices under the suspension section?

1 PIP for spitter and 1 PIP for wing

Spec tire anyone?

Pipping ubers may be difficult now that we have the Super Uber BFG R1

thgear

09-27-2007, 05:34 PM

How about PIPing aero devices under the suspension section?

1 PIP for spitter and 1 PIP for wing

Spec tire anyone?

Pipping ubers may be difficult now that we have the Super Uber BFG R1

what about high quality OEM wings, a-la STI

or how about the small things like James's little venturi little niblets at the back of his roof line

aftermarket sleek side mirrors and so forth.

i propose "1 pip for any aero mods for the front of the vehicle" and "1 pip for anything at the rear" just to cover more ground.

James Mewett

09-27-2007, 06:23 PM

How about PIPing aero devices under the suspension section?

1 PIP for spitter and 1 PIP for wing

Remember that any pipworthy mod must be clearly defined, and must have a performance benefit of approximately 0.2 seconds lap time per PIP.

If we were to address aero mods, they would likely have to go into the regular PIP section, not suspension, because logically aero does not follow the suspension convergence model. Likely we would have to allow a range of aero mods without penalty, as for example in CTCC. Exceed those limits and you get pipped.

As Serge points out, factory aero mods should not be exempt, especially if we agree aero does not fit into the sPIPs. A suspension index bump can't logically be used to address a non-sPIPable mod. One plan might be to pip any wing you would be embarrased to be seen on the street with - that would be one way to address the STis ;)

Of course the issue of how much a given aero mod is worth in terms of lap time has not really been determined.

Rob McAuley

10-05-2007, 08:44 PM

Some people have complained about racers bringing well prepared cars on trailers to events. This may discourage newbies from coming out with their lightly modded street cars.

What about charging pips for holding a race license?

Someone running their race car at a familiar track holds a huge advantage over other competitors.

Charge 2-5 pips for anyone with a Class A (non-rookie racer) license.

MazdaMatt

10-05-2007, 09:11 PM

I don't think that my trailered highly modified del sol has any chance against a stock porche... the pips are made for evening out the field, so my del sol is evened out.

Aero mods are TOUGH to pip. They matter more at higher speeds... so should they be worth more pips as you classed higher? A big wing on a sentra at the DDT is worthless, a small wing on a V8 240 could have huge benefits at GP... Has aero been a major factor in the standings so much that it has to be adressed?

Are we starting another 30 page discussion thread here? Maybe these things should best be left to the meeting... Unfortunately I (and many others) can't make it.

ADAM

10-12-2007, 11:42 AM

so far aero has been a non issue..when you compare it to uber tires...

SPEC tire....and pips for ubers and negative pips for street tires!!!

thgear

10-12-2007, 11:44 AM

so far aero has been a non issue..when you compare it to uber tires...

SPEC tire....and pips for ubers and negative pips for street tires!!!

*bangs adams head againts the table

dude you already know the impact of charging negative pips for stuff,

we dont want to promote use of street tires since there are plenty of sneaky competitiors out there.

ADAM

10-12-2007, 12:06 PM

I like the idea of either pips for all R's..or negative pips for streets...

wouldnt it be nice to just show up in your sports car at solo 1 ...drive it and know its fairly classed? without having to have another set of rims ect...?

i know i would like that ..i would bring my 911 out a few times..on streets....why not

pigeon

10-12-2007, 05:30 PM

SPEC tire....and pips for ubers and negative pips for street tires!!!
Since it is the drivers responsibility to maximize the use of their PIPs for any given modification, how are tires really any different?

Keeping all other things equal, a car with Hoosiers will be faster than the car with Toyos. The same goes for most other modifications as well, for example suspension. Keeping all other things equal the car with the custom made Moton race setup will be faster than the car with the Eibach Prokit and Tokico shocks, yet they get charged the same PIPs.

Just as it is the drivers responsibility to maximize their suspension PIPs, it is also the drivers responsibility to maximize their tire choice.

In defense of the Toyo user (or the Eibach/Tokico user), we all don't have the same budget. In defense of the Hoosier user (or the Moton user), its not only about money - there is also strategy and experience needed to be able to optimize Hoosier use (or to tune a Moton setup).

To properly tune a full coilover setup, you need to have some knowledge and experience with suspension design and modification. You need to know the effects of rebound, compression, and spring rate changes, and how it will affect the particular vehicle in question. To actually use Hoosiers for a full season, you need to know when and where to run them to maximize tire life. Can't use it in the rain - not a rain tire, don't want to use it during lapping - reduces life and adds another heat-cycle to them, don't want to use it when you're new to a track - because you can't drive at 10/10ths anyways. Then you gotta learn what pressures they work best at, and how long they take to warm up as they age. Proper use of suspension, experience, proper use of tires, and optimizing a particular setup within the ruleset guidelines is what seperates a competitive driver from a non-competitive driver.

Most people won't argue that Hoosiers are faster, but does it justify more PIPs when its usage is not really that different than any other modification to the car? There is an advantage to Hoosiers, and there is an advantage to AWD, but PIPing them seems like a move more in the direction of a spec series and less in the direction of a "race your daily driver grassroots" series.

thgear

10-12-2007, 06:21 PM

while the maximization rule holds true, we are trying to minimize areas where this maximization might occur.

by initiating a spec tire, you take tire choice out of the equation, you take that "maximizing game" out of the equation, and you rely more on driver skill to differentiate drivers

forcing everyone to submit their official race weights would also help reduce this maximizing philosophy, since people wont try to squeeze within the given rulesets

making everyone submit a dyno would also be helpful.

Tashko

10-12-2007, 06:32 PM

by initiating a spec tire, you take tire choice out of the equation, you take that "maximizing game" out of the equation, and you rely more on driver skill to differentiate drivers

Yeah, but then you have to determine max tire widths for different cars. Some cars in the same class and with different drivetrains will not be able to fit the same tire size. People will complain that the spec. tire is too narrow for their car's power, weight, drivetrain, etc. and gives an advantage to another car.

It would be better to PIP tires based on their performance. 0 pips for tire x and +/- pips for uber/slow tires.

thgear

10-12-2007, 07:11 PM

Yeah, but then you have to determine max tire widths for different cars. Some cars in the same class and with different drivetrains will not be able to fit the same tire size. People will complain that the spec. tire is too narrow for their car's power, weight, drivetrain, etc. and gives an advantage to another car.

It would be better to PIP tires based on their performance. 0 pips for tire x and +/- pips for uber/slow tires.

we dont have to force tire sizes on to competitors, just the compound.

MazdaMatt

10-12-2007, 07:35 PM

If you pick RA1 (the obvious choice) I have to sell my brand new tires and my brand new rims (1100 total). I will not do that, i will just go lose in Mod instead. RA1's are not made in my desired tire size.

If any of you recall my 'track exit' last year at the DDT (the incident involving a fence post) you will understand my support of NOT encouraging street tires. They are simply UNSAFE on a race track if you are pushing limits or inexperienced. I took a set of General Exclaim UHP's on the GP track for 2 sets of 3 laps and the tread was literally peeling off in 6-8 inch strands. I could hear them whipping the bottom of my car as i drove away from the track. If i tried to do 4 solosprint sessions where i was pushing the limits, i wouldn't have had tires under my car.

The reason ubers don't fit the maximizing rule and shocks do is this... Shock differences havn't split the field, tires have. The rules are designed for the issues of the day. If someone comes out with magic shocks that hold the road always, they will get pipped.

pigeon

10-12-2007, 07:49 PM

by initiating a spec tire, you take tire choice out of the equation, you take that "maximizing game" out of the equation, and you rely more on driver skill to differentiate drivers

forcing everyone to submit their official race weights would also help reduce this maximizing philosophy, since people wont try to squeeze within the given rulesets

making everyone submit a dyno would also be helpful.
The spec tire sounds reasonable. Race weight and dyno submissions are less reasonable, because people who only compete in 1 or 2 events a year may not be willing to pay this added expense and may discourage new competitors.

If any of you recall my 'track exit' last year at the DDT (the incident involving a fence post) you will understand my support of NOT encouraging street tires. They are simply UNSAFE on a race track if you are pushing limits or inexperienced. I took a set of General Exclaim UHP's on the GP track for 2 sets of 3 laps and the tread was literally peeling off in 6-8 inch strands. I could hear them whipping the bottom of my car as i drove away from the track. If i tried to do 4 solosprint sessions where i was pushing the limits, i wouldn't have had tires under my car.
When you hit the pole, it was because you were driving beyond the limit of the street tires... it wasn't the tires fault. That year I did that same event on street tires, and this year 2 other novices I attended the events with also competed on streets. One did for 2 out of the 4 events he competed in, and the other did it for 4 out of the 6 events he competed in. No issues with either of them.

The reason ubers don't fit the maximizing rule and shocks do is this... Shock differences havn't split the field, tires have. The rules are designed for the issues of the day. If someone comes out with magic shocks that hold the road always, they will get pipped.
I don't think I follow exactly what you mean, care to elaborate?

shawn cormier

10-12-2007, 07:49 PM

pigeon

10-12-2007, 07:54 PM

Dr. Dave is faster on Toyos then on Hoosiers......Are nt Hoosier suppose to be faster.....maybe we should PIP uber drivers....sorry Dave I didnt mean to point you out....Im just saying that every driver likes different PIPs in differrent areas,the system we use now works great, We need to learn to police it better.And the novice drivers need to know the difference between being at the bottom of a class to being at the top of a class PIP wise.Learn from the better drivers, ask them how to maximize your PIPs.
This is exactly what I mean when I said that it takes some experience, knowledge, and strategy to really use Hoosiers optimally. Just because someone is using them, doesn't necessarily mean that they will automatically be faster.

James wrote this in another thread, after recording lap times on different tires:
Conclusions:
1) A top 10 overall finish is possible on RA1 tires.
2) If you want to use Ubers competitively, ration them carefully (lap on something else) and be prepared to buy two sets for a season. You need another set of wheels.
3) Although Ubers may not be more expensive per tire, they are per season, if you want to be consistently competive on them.
4) Gerry and I would likely have done as well or better this past weekend on my last year's RA1s than on we did on his aged out R6s. Too bad I don't have enough wheels to have tried this.

ScotcH

10-12-2007, 08:13 PM

Dr. Dave is faster on Toyos then on Hoosiers

I don't think so ... better ask Dave on that one :) I think he is faster then on DEAD Hoosiers.

Dave Barker

10-14-2007, 10:23 PM

I don't think so ... better ask Dave on that one :) I think he is faster then on DEAD Hoosiers.

Sean, I have only ever had 2 laps accurately timed on Toyos ( my third lap on Saturday at the Nationals should have been yellowed :( ) but I can tell you absolutely that the Hoosiers, when in good condition (for my car at least) are WAY faster. Not sure if they are faster than V710s but the drop off in performance is not quite so precipitous.

Unfortunately there is some truth in both what Adam says and in what Chris A says. Do we commit the sin of holding back progress in tire performance (like Nascar holds back various chassis and engine developments) which is Chris's fear or do we say anything goes with the prize going to the driver who spends the most money in tires, (a bit like Formula 1's issue of have and have not teams) which is Adam's fear.

Personally, although Formula 1 has been much more interesting this year and I have never watched a complete Nascar race, realistically in Formula 1 there are really only 4 potential winners (and only 2 winning teams) and in Nascar there are at least 20 (don't know how many teams).

Considering that fair and good competition is what we strive for, I obviously side with Adam on this one.

On a personal note, the extra grip of the "uber" tires I have run these past 2 years has been destroying my front wheel hubs ($200 a pop). This was not a major issue with Victoracers (and unlikely to be with RA-1s) but has added to my costs of running.

What has been a concern to me is that we have had a drop in entrants this year from the part time crowd. More people ran the complete series this year despite a number of defections to wheel to wheel racing yet there were fewer people running just a few events. Is the tire war and the perceived cost, the issue??

BTW small point about street tires. I think I can speak for the CCC (although maybe not Adam) in saying that we feel street tires are dangerous on a race track. They are not designed to function at the heat we generate, they tend to fail just as a driver is getting more confident (and subsequently faster) and actually they deteriorate much more quickly by the 3 rd lap. It really is a safety issue. They may be fine for Solo 2 but not for SoloSprint.(Also we don't want to discourage some newbie from ruining his brand new brand X " super high performance" tires on his first day at the track)

shawn cormier

10-14-2007, 11:03 PM

So maybe we should decide on a good tire ......safe,fast, cheap and long lasting use it as our spec tire or base tire and then pip the rest. But the amount of pip should be the same no matter what our choice maybe.

pigeon

10-15-2007, 12:24 AM

Sean, I have only ever had 2 laps accurately timed on Toyos ( my third lap on Saturday at the Nationals should have been yellowed :( ) but I can tell you absolutely that the Hoosiers, when in good condition (for my car at least) are WAY faster. Not sure if they are faster than V710s but the drop off in performance is not quite so precipitous.

Unfortunately there is some truth in both what Adam says and in what Chris A says. Do we commit the sin of holding back progress in tire performance (like Nascar holds back various chassis and engine developments) which is Chris's fear or do we say anything goes with the prize going to the driver who spends the most money in tires, (a bit like Formula 1's issue of have and have not teams) which is Adam's fear.

Personally, although Formula 1 has been much more interesting this year and I have never watched a complete Nascar race, realistically in Formula 1 there are really only 4 potential winners (and only 2 winning teams) and in Nascar there are at least 20 (don't know how many teams).

Considering that fair and good competition is what we strive for, I obviously side with Adam on this one.

On a personal note, the extra grip of the "uber" tires I have run these past 2 years has been destroying my front wheel hubs ($200 a pop). This was not a major issue with Victoracers (and unlikely to be with RA-1s) but has added to my costs of running.

What has been a concern to me is that we have had a drop in entrants this year from the part time crowd. More people ran the complete series this year despite a number of defections to wheel to wheel racing yet there were fewer people running just a few events. Is the tire war and the perceived cost, the issue??

BTW small point about street tires. I think I can speak for the CCC (although maybe not Adam) in saying that we feel street tires are dangerous on a race track. They are not designed to function at the heat we generate, they tend to fail just as a driver is getting more confident (and subsequently faster) and actually they deteriorate much more quickly by the 3 rd lap. It really is a safety issue. They may be fine for Solo 2 but not for SoloSprint.(Also we don't want to discourage some newbie from ruining his brand new brand X " super high performance" tires on his first day at the track)

What if we were to propose the idea of a spec tire to the tire manufacturers, and get them as a series sponsor for next year? We might get a price break, and maybe 1 or 2 events with contingency prizes... they'll get an increase in exposure and definitely an increase in sales.

Chris91GT

10-15-2007, 10:41 AM

This goes back full-circle to the discussion that we had last year (or was it 2 years ago now?) and the reason we did NOT endorse a spec tire or PIPing. Different tires work differently on different cars, not all tire sizes are available in any given tire, and RA1s are NOT everyone's favourite tire and/or the best bang for the buck. If there weren't so many regional race cross-overs we would never be having this discussion.

And for the perception of added tire cost for Hoosiers/Kumho V170s/R1s/etc, no winning car will EVER run a season on one set of Toyos. EVER. Even if Toyo became a spec tire, do you really think the people who absolutely must win will start the season on full-tread RA1s? I think not. No, people will have TWO sets of shaved Toyos and still have no suitable wets in the event of rain.

So where does that leave you? It leaves you with two NEW sets of RA1s at MORE cost than the group deal Hoosier R6s with potentially less life than R6s. And you CAN run 6 events on one set of R6s if you want without compromise. For 9 events it's two sets of RA1s or R6s.

For the budget conscious who wants to win, the ideal and most cost-effective package would be to buy a set of R6s via OMSC's annual group buy and source a set of ultra-durable Hoosier GACs or RA1s for lapping.

ScotcH

10-15-2007, 11:31 AM

Good points, Chris. However, the idea of a spec tire is also to bring competition closer, not just cost considerations. If everyone used the same tire, the potential for similar performance is there. Of course some will still have a fresh set of shaved RA-1s, but that's optimization. The spec tire will eliminate our headache of trying to guess at the performance levels of various tires. We simply say you use your street tires or RA-1s (preferred option), otherwise it's 5 pips (or whatever) for any other tire. This would allow everyone to run whatever they choose, with the knowledge that since Hoosiers and other "uber" tires are faster, they will be piped. It just takes the guesswork out of WHICH tires will be piped (ie, ALL of them, except for RA-1s).

I absolutely agree that the only way this will work is if we can get a deal like the race group gets (ie 40% off). This should not be that hard ... SPDA managed it!

Also, cheap RA-1s scrubs are available on the Net, as well as after any Speed World challange race ... very cheap, and plentiful!

JoeT

10-15-2007, 11:38 AM

I absolutely agree that the only way this will work is if we can get a deal like the race group gets (ie 40% off). This should not be that hard ... SPDA managed it!

Also, cheap RA-1s scrubs are available on the Net, as well as after any Speed World challange race ... very cheap, and plentiful!

FYI, for 2008, all of CASC Regional Racers as well as Solosprint and Autoslalom competitors will be getting RA-1's at 40% off.. The proposal is already in the hands of Scott Ellswrth, all that's required is for the board to review and accept or deny. It's been in his hands since August.

The proposal addresses the challenges that Toyo is currently faced with and how CASC can help.

You're welcome... :p :D

ADAM

10-15-2007, 11:55 AM

Slowpoke

10-15-2007, 12:08 PM

My personal observation is about 3% at Mosport in the laptimes over RA-1's with Hoosiers. For Avi, he saw about the same changing from Yokos to Hoosiers.

My PERSONAL observation is that where the Hoosier really seems to excel over the RA-1 is on concrete patches. You wouldn't see the same benefit at Shannonville where there's fewer concrete inserts at the apexes.

Woohoo! Cheap Toyos for everyone!

Dave: Using Hoosiers vs. RA-1's I need to baffle my fuel tank/stick foam in it to prevent starvation, get a larger oil pan for safety since the oil doesn't drain out of the galleries properly with those G's, oh and change my wheel bearings at least once a year. If Ubers aren't penalized, I'll have to continue to use them, but if they

Chris: You may have gotten lucky a second year in a row, or your negotiation skills are better, but most of us were quoted much higher prices for the Hoosier's through the OMSC group buy in 2007 vs. the 2006 prices... 15% to 20% higher from what I was told, and heard from others. This year I ordered my R6's from Talon Tire in Quebec cheaper than getting them through OMSC in St. Catherines. Avi gets Heat Cycled R6's cheaper from Tire Rack than non-heat cycled tires from St. Catherines.

Steve2

10-15-2007, 12:32 PM

What about those of us who have old used ubers (that are now similar to fresh shaved RA1s) to use up next year? :D

I have loads of tires that are almost dead to kill off in the first few events next year. I don't throw a tire out because it is not as fast as it used to be - I throw it out once it is no longer safe to run on, and get every last lap I can out of it before that time.

SVT RACING

10-15-2007, 12:33 PM

This competitor meeting the end of the month, would someone starting next season benifit from it????

Chris91GT

10-15-2007, 12:44 PM

well I dont agree....

the hoosier 100% are faster than the Ra1's...and in my experiance..they last about 1/2 as long...

back to back testing at mosport GP....there was 3 seconds difference on my low powered NA 240sx...in fact the hoosiers cracked my windshield

IMO..its just a tire war now..since they affect the times so much...there is no point in having car classes..

REMEMBER each class is ONLY separated by in theory 1 SECOND!!!! ( 5 pips) thats it!!!

so when you throw in tires that can make up 1-3+ seconds...you have a problem...

Half as long as what? A new RA1? Of course they do. But no one will run new RA1s. They will run shaved RA1s. How many events will you get from a shaved RA1? 2 weekends? 3? Sounds like R6 territory for ~ the same money and less grip.

I don't know how you picked up 3 seconds at Mosport. Few others have. Mosport is the one track where the R6s don't seem to have the same advantage due to the rather lengthy straight and increased drag. Perhaps your courage took a 3 second leap with the additional confidence afforded by a more precise tire. RA1s, Yoks, Victoracers, etc all have considerably more tread squirm under load which affects tire feel and, in turn, confidence. People uncomfortable with slip angles will no doubt be more unnerved by these tires on high load / high slip tracks like Mosport. But there has been little evidence (in fact, some to the contrary as you move DOWN the power and weight scale) that R6s are that much faster at Mosport. I find it hard to believe that your <100hp 240SX could ever make effective use of the true grip of R6s around Mosport. You should be flat out through most of the corners with or without R6s.

thgear

10-15-2007, 01:29 PM

This competitor meeting the end of the month, would someone starting next season benifit from it????

probably not.

Todd #65

10-15-2007, 01:29 PM

Does the meeting on the 27th intend to vote on and 'pass' any changes? It would be appreciated if someone (from the CCC or well informed) could post the process by which a rule get's changed.

Thanks.

ADAM

10-15-2007, 01:47 PM

I guess we wont agree on the tire issue then...

guess we will have to see what happens to the series..as it bleeds members away..and keeps new blood away due to high costs...and keeps stock cars away due to high costs...

and most of all... KILLS THE COMPITITION..it makes the PIP system that we spent so much time working on useless

the hoosiers have so much more grip over the Ra1's they cannot even be compared...

and as for shaving Ra1's...i have had 6 sets now....and not one set has been ever shaved...why..cause i would rathe they last..so i dont have to blow money away for nothing...

Slowpoke

10-15-2007, 02:01 PM

This competitor meeting the end of the month, would someone starting next season benifit from it????

No, a new competitor really wouldn't benefit from being at this meeting. Although it's open to any Solo competitor, I see this mainly being for Club Solosprint Directors, Car Classification Committee members, and any individuals with issues to promote.

Chris91GT

10-15-2007, 02:23 PM

Adam,

If you plan to run full-tread Toyos then you really aren't a part of this discussion, because they never have been and never will be the tire of choice. Period.

My biggest beef with this whole discussion (as it was a year or two ago) is that the ONLY thing the pro-PIPing people are fighting for is the RA1. What about the A032R? A048R? Victoracers? They all died the death that old tech rubber deserved, yet for some reason the RA1 camp keeps plugging away at them. Why is the RA1 the ONLY tire ever discussed? Because too many people have vested interest in them, that's why.

It seems to me that this whole issue got started when I started running V710s 2 years ago because I had been told my W&TZ that the Victoracers were scrap. That didn't happen, but once I stumbled into the V710s I never intended to look back. I happily got better grip and durability out of them on the sub-3000lbs GT in 2005. Too bad event 7 cooked them...

Then last year I plunked on a set of R6s. I only ever bought one set. I only ran 5 events, but they were as good during event 5 as they were during event 1, and I did use them for a few lapping sessions.

It's time to let this issue fade away as it did pre-season 2006, for the same reasons that it did then. There is no tire issue, there is no tire war, there is only Toyo rebellion because they seem to be everywhere. But it makes no difference. Even if Toyos became spec people would buy 2 shaved sets a year to win. Then what, PIP shaving? Can't do that, then they would have to be PIPed on a sliding scale as they wear out. And what about when the RA1 die? Or when Hoosier brings out an R7 that is .5s faster than the R6? Do we rewrite the rules annually to reclass tires?

If anyone thinks that there is a cost issue with the current crop of tires, it is only perceived, and it is only perceived because of this type of discussion. The catchy "uber" tire is a great catch-all for excuses, but it is not the problem.

So, one last time, to all of the naysayers who keep pointing out that one set of RA1s should be made competitive. They are NOT, canNOT be, and never will be.

But I do look forward to 2008 when I show up in Calgary for the Alberta series to a crowd running Toyos and Yokohamas (remember them, the other tire?) and start this whole "war" all over again. [sigh]

G-ForceJunkie

10-15-2007, 02:35 PM

So, one last time, to all of the naysayers who keep pointing out that one set of RA1s should be made competitive. They are NOT, canNOT be, and never will be.[sigh]
I seem to remember beating you when I was on RA-1's and you were on Hoosiers. (TMP '06)

I think most would agree that for as long as Todd and I have been in Solosprint, we've been 'competitive', and up until CMP this year, we've run exclusively on unshaved Toyo's. We've done a few events on Hoosiers now, and can't speak for how long they will last (especially through the winter now... :( ), but they are certainly a lot faster, and I'd have no issue if the CCC wanted to pip them.

thgear

10-15-2007, 02:41 PM

keep in mind that pipings certain tires

and running a "spec" tire are slightly different things.

=============

i'm all for running a 'spec' tire, atleast that way everyone can shut up about it, you can run multiple sets, but atleast the compound will be the same, less variability

but at the same time i couldnt care less.

=============

now, at the same time, if we dont run a spec tire, we should NOT pip tires!

Chris here is the only person that seems to be thinking ahead, everyone else is thinking a season ahead, or in the case of Adam 2 seasons from the past!~

technology is going forward, tires are getting grippier, if you decided to buy Toyo's, you decided to buy ancient technology, you have NO RIGHT to complain when someone beats you on tires that JUST came out!

thats like someone playing Tennis with a wooden racket and telling the carbon fibre guys that they are cheating... get with the times.

ADAM

10-15-2007, 02:44 PM

"So, one last time, to all of the naysayers who keep pointing out that one set of RA1s should be made competitive. They are NOT, canNOT be, and never will be."

so then you do agree that the hoosiers are quicker!!!

the rules are not fixed in stone...they must adapt....

and yes this includes...the yoks, and kuhmo's ect... its just that toyo and hoosier are the most popular brands...

thgear

10-15-2007, 02:46 PM

and yes this includes...the yoks, and kuhmo's ect... its just that toyo and hoosier are the most popular brands...

so buy the ****ing hoosers and relax! :rolleyes:

ScotcH

10-15-2007, 02:47 PM

Serge summed it up perfectly. The Spec tire solution is just that ... a solution to shut everyone up. You cannot complain if everyone has to run the same tires. Period.

If Spec tire is not the answer, then the issue is dead ... I don't think PIPing tires will be considered for 2008, so no worries there. Been there, done that, and not going back.

ADAM

10-15-2007, 02:51 PM

thgear

10-15-2007, 02:55 PM

"Chris here is the only person that seems to be thinking ahead, everyone else is thinking a season ahead, or in the case of Adam 2 seasons from the past!~"

ummm i am thinking ahead...for the best interest of the series and the rule set..and the competitors...

if we dont even the playing field....then people will be "out spent" in the series simple as that..we try to do it with all the other parts...and yet we leave out the biggest impreovment of all...TIRES? does that make any sense?

it would be like leaving out engines....only to realise you enter a solo 1 compition in your carbed 1970's 4 banger ..and see that the leaders are all using F1 v8 engines.....so to compete you have to drop the coin or you might as well go lapping..which is what is happening....

thats NOT grassroots...thats elitist..

anyway thats my take on the situtation....its not fair for those on budgets and in street cars.. IMO

sure

more money

but like has been pointed out, even if we instigate a tire classifcation, people will still be sneaky within the rules, bringing out shaved fresh toyo's for every single event!! (not that there is anyone that would actualy do that)

so even if you pip the new compound tires, the guys that decided to run Toyos, or whatever, can still have an advantage within their own class by bringing in multiple sets, and the guys who run for 2 years on the same set (like me) are gonna get dusted (like i did... :) )

we're no better off, while adding more words to the rule book!

ADAM

10-15-2007, 02:56 PM

ADAM

10-15-2007, 02:58 PM

solved.....by a simple line...

no tiring shaving allowed...

so....then if people want to "cheat" the system..they have to by heatcycled out RA1's...end of issue...

thgear

10-15-2007, 03:02 PM

will be going back to the hoosiers 100% they are worth thier weight in gold time wise :)

some really nasty big hoosiers :)

that does not change the fact of what it does to the series, and those that cant afford multiple rim sets and tires...

what about aerodynamic mods?

we are not piping those, someone that can go out and dump 1000~1500 dollars on race engineered carbon fiber wings, spoilers and air diverters is going to have an advantage over people without aero

what about flat power banded engines vs peaky engines??

we still havent solved that issue, two engines making 300 hp, one making it from start to finish, the other making 300 hp for a split second at 5billion RPM.

YOU should know, i was in the car with you when you drifted in THIRD GEAR

what about rain tires?

no one talked about rain tires yet, i cant afford a set, not only that i dont even have space to carry them in, at the moment this is not even a discussed issue.

all these are also money issues, and i think they are issues that can be delt with more immedietly with greater results.

but you guys keep picking at the one topic thats near impossible to solve with total agreement from all parties.

SVT RACING

10-15-2007, 03:06 PM

Thanks, that will save me a drive. Not trying to change topic on everyone but when will the first date be to get signed up and get number? CSC open house?

thgear

10-15-2007, 03:07 PM

Thanks, that will save me a drive. Not trying to change topic on everyone but when will the first date be to get signed up and get number? CSC open house?

send Ana an email... i think you can grab a number now if you really want to.

SVT RACING

10-15-2007, 03:15 PM

Great, who is Ana? would her address be on the solo1 site?

thgear

10-15-2007, 03:16 PM

http://www.soloontario.com/registration.html

SVT RACING

10-15-2007, 03:22 PM

Thanks, will drop her a line!

Slowpoke

10-15-2007, 03:26 PM

My biggest beef with this whole discussion (as it was a year or two ago) is that the ONLY thing the pro-PIPing people are fighting for is the RA1. What about the A032R? A048R? Victoracers? They all died the death that old tech rubber deserved, yet for some reason the RA1 camp keeps plugging away at them. Why is the RA1 the ONLY tire ever discussed? Because too many people have vested interest in them, that's why.

For me, it's my best frame of reference as the only other R-Compound I've run a LOT on the big track. That's why I can say that the R6 is THAT much faster than the RA1.

One day on Pirelli P-Zero Corsa (60 A A) 225/45/17
One day I ran a Dunlop Super Sport SP R-Comp (50 A A) 225/45-17
One day I ran a Kumho 710 (30 C A) 245/40-17
At least 10 days I ran three different sizes of RA-1 (100 A A), 255/40-17 being my favourite
Two days I ran Hoosier R6 for the first time his year 245/40-17

I never bought Yokos because I couldn't find a vendor offering them at a reasonable price, and I wasn't part of Solosprint when they were the sponsors so I couldn't win a free set.

Keep in mind that Toyo will have the new R888 available in different hardness coming to Canada for 2008. It will not only be the RA1 that's available, and you can choose a compound to suit the weight/hp of your car. I haven't seen the agreement before CASC-OR, but from what I've hear so far, these tires will most likely fall into the same 40% discount for Team Toyo Racing (which includes Solo.)

R888 aren't "Cheater Slicks", but they start at 6/32" vs. 8/32" for the RA1.

And if no one PIP's or penalizes R6's... I'd shell out for two sets of those or R1's to be competitive in the dry.

Dave Barker

10-15-2007, 10:18 PM

So where does that leave you? It leaves you with two NEW sets of RA1s at MORE cost than the group deal Hoosier R6s with potentially less life than R6s. And you CAN run 6 events on one set of R6s if you want without compromise. For 9 events it's two sets of RA1s or R6s.

For the budget conscious who wants to win, the ideal and most cost-effective package would be to buy a set of R6s via OMSC's annual group buy and source a set of ultra-durable Hoosier GACs or RA1s for lapping.

Chris, you are assuming that Toyos wear at the same rate as "Ubers". Frankly they don't. As many people have said, "Toyos suck, but they suck for a long time". They are no where near as sensitive to heat cycling as Hoosiers or V710s and have a significantly longer track life even after shaving. I can not see any reason to bring a bunch of different shaved sets of Toyos as you suggest to be best prepared yet we know that 3 sets of Hoosiers or V710s would be more optimal.

Interestingly I did exactly as you suggest in your last paragraph but one set of R6s won't cut it for the season, at least not on my heavy car.

Also interesting that a number of pro series use RA-1s.

Another issue here is that we try to have street vehicles be competitive with mildly modified vehicles and full trailer Queens. Most street suspensions and many mildly modified suspensions can't optiimise the use of "uber" tires as compared to more heavily modified cars which tilts the balance towards fully race prepped cars (which is NOT good for a grass root level series). The lower grip tires such as the RA-1 tend to be less of an problem for street cars (see my previous comments re hubs and stephen's comments re oil starvation etc.)

ADAM

10-16-2007, 10:32 AM

Other than street tires being slower...I personally dont have any issues with running them on the track...you just have to know when they are being pushed to hard so you dont chunk them...

other than that there should be no reason why you cant compete on them....the safety issue is BS IMO..if its such a "safety" issue ..why do we even allow them on the track then?

so..we can assume safety is not an issue then...so why not give them 0 pips and pip the rest of the tires accordingly...maybe like

street=0pips
RA1's and like tires=3pips
hoosiers and other ubers=5-7pips

ADAM

10-16-2007, 10:33 AM

ScotcH

10-16-2007, 10:40 AM

ohhh also....NO WAY do hoosiers last as long as RA1's..not only do you have to run silly camber to get them to work the best...and mistakes in braking in a non abs car..and you can kiss them "bye bye"

how is that a great tire in a grass roots series.....its not

Absolutely agree. Even shaved RA-1s will last a LONG time. I used 3 sets of shaved RA-1s for this year in racing, and that is 2 drivers, 6 weekends, at ~3hrs HARD driving each weekend. Of those 3 sets, only 2 were corded, and the rest still have 2 grooves in them. The RA-1 is nearly indestructible, which is what makes it a great tire for this series.

thekid

10-16-2007, 03:09 PM

thgear

10-16-2007, 03:17 PM

I'm generally in agreement with Chris' points.

However, just to throw another idea out there (I don't necessarily support it), but what about mandating a spec tire like the RA-1 and restrict each competitor to 6 tires at the start of the season, kind of like Targa does if I'm not mistaken. Obviously you'd have to find away to police this, but this might prevent the issue of people shaving them.

good idea, however one caveat i see in it is that someone driving a mosnter V8 might tend to cook theirs alot faster than someone running 90 hp... :)

giving the lighter guys a longevity advantage, altho i pulled that entirely out of the air.

craig

10-16-2007, 06:07 PM

What has been a concern to me is that we have had a drop in entrants this year from the part time crowd. More people ran the complete series this year despite a number of defections to wheel to wheel racing yet there were fewer people running just a few events. Is the tire war and the perceived cost, the issue??

BTW small point about street tires. I think I can speak for the CCC (although maybe not Adam) in saying that we feel street tires are dangerous on a race track.

I won't be at the meeting, but I really think you/CCC have to reconsider. I do not think all street tires are dangerous on a race track. Yes, some street tires would plow tremendously, and running, say, Blizzaks on a hot day could be a disaster, but high-performance street tires are pretty good these days. I'd venture to say that most, if not all, V-rated or better tires can be driven safely at speed on the track. One Lap of America (which is restricted to street tires) is proof.

Pipping all R's would be what I would do to partially address your first paragraph.

While I'm here, I believe that all AWD and all cars with LSD - factory or not - should be pipped. Both are, at their core, ways to attain additional traction in sub-optimal conditions. Thus, neither AWD or LSD are 'suspension,' so should not accounted for by the suspension rating. Only one is pipped right now. Both must be accounted for to be fair.

Chris91GT

10-16-2007, 09:35 PM

Chris, you are assuming that Toyos wear at the same rate as "Ubers". Frankly they don't. As many people have said, "Toyos suck, but they suck for a long time". They are no where near as sensitive to heat cycling as Hoosiers or V710s and have a significantly longer track life even after shaving. I can not see any reason to bring a bunch of different shaved sets of Toyos as you suggest to be best prepared yet we know that 3 sets of Hoosiers or V710s would be more optimal.

Interestingly I did exactly as you suggest in your last paragraph but one set of R6s won't cut it for the season, at least not on my heavy car.

Also interesting that a number of pro series use RA-1s.

Another issue here is that we try to have street vehicles be competitive with mildly modified vehicles and full trailer Queens. Most street suspensions and many mildly modified suspensions can't optiimise the use of "uber" tires as compared to more heavily modified cars which tilts the balance towards fully race prepped cars (which is NOT good for a grass root level series). The lower grip tires such as the RA-1 tend to be less of an problem for street cars (see my previous comments re hubs and stephen's comments re oil starvation etc.)

My stock GT did just fine on the R6s... all it took was 1 PIP for alignment, something any car can (and should) take assuming it isn't maxxed out stock. The 5+ events that I ran were on stock suspension and the R6s lasted fine.

I have to wonder Dave if your car slides too much to make use of the R6s. Hoosier specifically states that the R6s do not tolerate sliding, which would reduce grip levels more quickly. I recall you mentioning that you have trouble putting power down, which I interpret as excessive sliding.

Oh... need some Ford hubs Dave? :p

ADAM

10-17-2007, 10:51 AM

"R6s do not tolerate sliding"

crap really? well that kinda kills them for me sliding is half the fun

Chris91GT

10-18-2007, 09:17 PM

"R6s do not tolerate sliding"

crap really? well that kinda kills them for me sliding is half the fun

We're talking about winning Adam. Stop diluting your own arguments. :p Find some GACs or RA1s for sliding... buy R6s for winning.

glh

10-18-2007, 10:11 PM

If you have a spec tire it will cause first timers or people who just want to come out for the occassional run for coming out but in the same breath there has to be something done with tires its way too wide open but then I guess some are more serious than others after all is this racing??

personaly I think you guys have way too many rules as it is

I like Robs sugestion as A licence holders running in was it sgt1

Just saying Hi and stirring the pot

Have fun guys and girls

Steve

Slowpoke

10-18-2007, 11:04 PM

dubya_rx

10-28-2007, 02:10 PM

So?

Have you all recovered from your hang-overs? :p How did the meeting go?

Any consensus? Any lynchings? :D

Slowpoke

10-28-2007, 11:08 PM

I'll let James fill you in on the bulk of it... but a few details:

7 CCC members and Chuck present
+ Serge from TAC
+ ~ Twelve SPDA members.

There will be no spec tire.

However, AWD is the new spec drivetrain.

Cap'n Pete

10-28-2007, 11:09 PM

PIP'em. PIP'em all!!!! :p :D

;)

Cap'n Pete

10-28-2007, 11:13 PM

However, AWD is the new spec drivetrain.
Cool, so how's it work then Steve? -5 PIPs for FWD/RWD?? ;) What if said FWD/RWD doesn't have factory Aero? -10 PIPs?? :p :D

thgear

10-29-2007, 11:58 AM

the best part about the CCC meeting was watching Adam argue, i wish i had my camera to take picture of his facial expressions and body language :D

JoeT

10-29-2007, 12:00 PM

the best part about the CCC meeting was watching Adam argue, i wish i had my camera to take picture of his facial expressions and body language :D

Bwahahahahahahahaha... Oh, line if the day was:

Question: Ya ya what's the difference between you and serge?
Answer: Liposuction!

Yeah, he does get a twinkle in his eye (squinting) when he gets flustered, or is that just a reflection from the window? :p

ADAM

10-29-2007, 12:36 PM

:)

well when you have timing that does not make power in turbo cars..it makes me twitch :)

JoeT

10-29-2007, 12:43 PM

:)

well when you have timing that does not make power in turbo cars..it makes me twitch :)

We never said that.. LOL We all agreed that it did add some power. That was clear. :D

On a production car which is close to being optimized (WRX for Example) with TD04-14g = 260cfm. (Changed from 320, did a little resarch) There's only so much power you can get out of that.

On an AFI or Aftermarket Forced Induction, like you had, the effect from "non optimized" to Optimized nets greater results, agreed.

Did you know that on a WRX (similar to an STI) ecu, closed loop is up to 4000+ rpm and 40 percent of throttle. Plus it's on a 2 line map "only" and can't be modified. Even if you tried to modify the timing in the closed loop map, it will be ignored.

Even then, on cruise, you can get lots of increase in fuel economy on the highway... :p

Slowpoke

10-29-2007, 01:29 PM

the best part about the CCC meeting was watching Adam argue, i wish i had my camera to take picture of his facial expressions and body language :D

You have to appreciate honesty, and the ability to read it on someones forehead, through eye-rolling, or smoke coming out their ears is much better than someone who conceals their emotions. :D

(BTW, Guillermo was there to represent HADA, and Andy P was there from TAC, but they both hold SPDA memberships so I lumped them in with us. :) )

ADAM

10-29-2007, 02:21 PM

JoeT

10-29-2007, 02:37 PM

"On a production car which is close to being optimized (WRX for Example) with TD04-14g = 320 cfm. There's only so much power you can get out of that."

the CFM of the injested air will not dictate the overall power..it can be used as a gauge....however only a good gauge if timing is correct :)

you can have an engine that is sucking in 1000cfm..and making hadly any power if the timing is retarded all to heck....

think of it this way...if the timing is not advanced then the explosive power of the fuel is not being used...so you can have all the air and fuel you want...but if its only applying torque to the crank way past TDC then CFM is not a measure of anything since torque will be way down...and thus horsepower....

conversely you can have the same amount of air and fuel that is advanced..and make way more torque out of the same available fuel and air..for the very reason the explosive power is being applied to the crank at or before TDC...

so i am not sure why timing changes should not be PIPed ?

Wow, sometimes you make sense... :p I agree with almost all of those points. But I'm just having a hard time locating a Factory turbocharged car that has a big turbo and severly retarded timing and can still pass emissions.. :p

I stand by my statement, the effect of timing alone on a factory turbocharged car is less significant than what you're putting it to be. Heck, if timing alone would get me 30 Hp (like someone mentioned :D ) it's like finding the fountain of youth.

With regards to the CFM arguement, we're in sync there, we both agree that "there's only so much power" you can get out of that. CFM is a guage Maximum Potential power provided everything is perfect, also considering the VE of the engine. (but that's another story).. LOL :D

ADAM

10-29-2007, 02:55 PM

JoeT

10-29-2007, 02:59 PM

"I stand by my statement, the effect of timing alone on a factory turbocharged car is less significant than what you're putting it to be. Heck, if timing alone would get me 30 Hp (like someone mentioned ) it's like finding the fountain of youth"

try advancing the timing slowly..and see what happens...just keep increasing the fuel octane as well....you can get some crazy HP improvements on C116..

"also considering the VE of the engine."

not as much an issue on forced induction engine...thats what you have the turbo for...to cram air into the motor regardless of what the designs Ve might be :)

We never discussed changing fuels at the meeting. But Yes, I agree, increase the Octane rating by 10 points, and you'll be able to advance the timing. Our assumption was pump gas, daily driven car, etc. But then there's the Dyno Plot option, anyway.

As far as VE is concerned, yes it plays a big part, read up on ECR or "Effective Compression Ratio" of an engine.

ADAM

10-29-2007, 03:09 PM

ScotcH

10-29-2007, 03:16 PM

I guess the sticking point here is that you CAN get better results with just ECU tuning on a turbo car vs an N/A car. Is that difference worth 2 PIPs? I don't know about daily driving and milt tuning, but using everything available to you to tune it (race fuel, fuel pressure, bigger intakes, injectors, WHATEVER (except for boost), I think it's safe to say that you can tune the turbo car to run .4 sec faster than an identically powered NA car. Comes back to optimization again ... basically, don't get a mild tune for SoloSprint, or get a dyno :-)

Slowpoke

10-29-2007, 03:22 PM

so i am not sure why timing changes should not be PIPed ?

Timing changes SHOULD be PIPped, but forced induction PIPs should be in line with Naturally Aspirated... not double.

Sure, if you start from ZERO degrees or ATDC timing because you just built a motor and added a turbo to it and are only STARTING to dial in timing, you're going to see gains on the order of 30hp. But the same would be true of a crate LS1 engine starting at the same point and needing tuning.

Adam has an LS1 with some kind of engine management, right? Why don't we set it to zero degrees BTDC for next season if timing has no effect on naturally aspirated engines?

Edit: I also know of at least one Honda motor that would have to adjust it's timing to pass emissions testing, then could go back to advanced timing after the test.

ADAM

10-29-2007, 03:28 PM

well you also risk blowing up your engine if its stock..since the peak cylinder pressures start to go thru the roof )

and I cant imagine what c116 costs now with gas the way it is

we have not really seen any crazy turbo cars coming out yet..I wish some of the subu guys would get one prepped...

JoeT

10-29-2007, 03:32 PM

well if I had a turbo car (which i did for years in solo 1) i would use race fuel..since its free in the rules(even though we allow ultra 94 which by the rules is illegal IMO since it contains an oxidizer..but thats a whole other issue)..it gives you a DISTINCT advantage ..since you could probbaly advance your timing at least a few degrees or so...I was up to about 8 degrees on c116

and 100% you can get some great hp gains..which your competitors cannot on thier NA engines..

But you did increase the boost as well, to take advantage of the semi leaded C116 fuel right? No one with factory boosted engine would use C116 with just timing alone. If optimizing, you should optimize all of the above Fuel, Timing, Boost, boost response aka WGDC, etc.

Here's an example of a WRX with 3.0" cat back exhaust using the same fuel (91 Octane), with optimized timing and fuel. This particular one also had a boost increase of 1 psi, approx at peak.

http://www.i-speed.us/dyno_results/temp/tempFile64154.php

click on that link, you'll see the peak HP only changes 12 Hp, but most of that is due to the boost being bumped up from 13.7 to almost 15 Psi.

1 Psi of boost at 8.2:1 CR @ 2.0 Litres of displacement = 9 - 10 Hp / Psi

ADAM

10-29-2007, 03:34 PM

running stock computer on the ls1 ...so no way to adjust the bugger....its all coil pack on cylinder

however I have done lots of side by side testing of the 240sx's both turbo and NA with timing..since it uses a old fashion dizzy...with a NA 240sx..running 94 ultra you can expect 5-8rwhp with +5 degrees of timing..turbo running 94 12psi boost..you can see +23rwhp and even more torque...

the thinking is......with turbos we have to be VERY carefull of what we allow with low PIPS....cause you might get some crazy people that bring maximized turbo setups out..and then they just walk on everyone...

Personally I would not just do a ECU change (timing) and not up the boost level...they all work hand and hand...if you isolate one..its hard to get the most out of it...and youi have to maximise the fuel....its a no brainer since its FREE

pigeon

10-29-2007, 03:43 PM

Most OEM turbocharged or high-compression vehicles already require 91 octane from the factory, where as medium-compression naturally-aspirated motors usually only require 87 octane.

If Sunoco fuel (94 points) plus maybe an octane booster (2 points) is used, it is within reach for any driver to have a tank of 96 octane at any given point.

This is only a 5 point increase for a turbocharged or high-compression vehicle, while it is a 9 point increase for a naturally-aspirated medium-compression vehicles.

Since turbocharged vehicles make better use of timing advance when compared to naturally aspirated vehicles, however naturally aspirated vehicles are able to run larger amounts of advance, I do not see the need for turbocharged vehicles to declare any more PIPs than the naturally aspirated ones.

pigeon

10-29-2007, 03:47 PM

however I have done lots of side by side testing of the 240sx's both turbo and NA with timing..since it uses a old fashion dizzy...with a NA 240sx..running 94 ultra you can expect 5-8rwhp with +5 degrees of timing..turbo running 94 12psi boost..you can see +23rwhp and even more torque...

I just saw this after I posted my last post. Did both vehicles only get a +5* advance, and nothing else?

We any fuel pressure/injector duration adjustments made to the turbo car?

ADAM

10-29-2007, 03:47 PM

joe on that graph it looks like thats just a boost spike (green line) from the wastegate not reacting fast enough..cause it looks like the boost stabilizes higher up in the RPM range to a lower amount

yes 100% i upped the boost when running C16..no point otherwise with that fuel....

I could run 15-17psi on ultra 94 with a 8.1:1 compression motor..no detonation issues....however when I upped the boost to 22psi i was running
c116..and +7 degrees timing...however the engine was fully built..including a o-ringed head and ARP studded... a stock engine I am sure would just be lifted off the block..or worse..

its hard to determine PIP's when looked at in isolation...however turbo engines are more of a "unit" where the whole is greater than its parts on an individual basis

ADAM

10-29-2007, 03:52 PM

nope....no changes in injectors or fuel pressure..just turning the dizzy...

what do the subu's run a MAP? or MAF?

I really enjoyed the custom MAF system....I could go from 10psi to 22psi..with no changes(other than twisting the knob on the boost controller)..it used a 3" ford cobra MAF, and 4x480cc injectors at 4 bar fuel pressure...

JoeT

10-29-2007, 03:55 PM

nope....no changes in injectors or fuel pressure..just turning the dizzy...

what do the subu's run a MAP? or MAF?

Primary air metering is though "hot wire" Mass Airflow (MAF). Backup is by MAP. Yup, it has both.

Slowpoke

10-29-2007, 03:57 PM

In your case then Adam, you were already taking a significant amount of other PIPs that would cover the added horsepower you somehow gained.

Also my question about your reference points...

You adjusted the Turbo engine from what degrees to what degrees?

Your naturally aspirated from what point to what point?

Was the naturally aspirated engine you quote also freshly built?

What was the displacement and CFM of each engine that you're quoting?

(If you're quoting a 2.0L naturally aspirated versus a 2.0L with a 600cfm turbo... that's not apples to apples.)

I'm just guessing here, since I'm not a V8 hotrod guy myself... but you old wrenches, is that all that you were able to extract from a V8? 4 or 5 hp with 5 degrees of timing?

pigeon

10-29-2007, 03:58 PM

nope....no changes in injectors or fuel pressure..just turning the dizzy...
wow, ok forget what I said then, I wasn't aware that timing alone - with no other adjustments made that kind of power. Did you have any sort of exhaust gas analyzer/wide-band hooked up to know if it was safely operable like that?

what do the subu's run a MAP? or MAF?

Depends on which year, between 02-07 there was a switch.

ADAM

10-29-2007, 04:01 PM

ADAM

10-29-2007, 04:04 PM

"wow, ok forget what I said then, I wasn't aware that timing alone - with no other adjustments made that kind of power. Did you have any sort of exhaust gas analyzer/wide-band hooked up to know if it was safely operable like that?"

yes the first few dyno plots at low boost...after we tested the MAF's plot range from 10-22psi...no other wideband testing was done since I knew it was running ok in that boost range...And after 22psi the engine was just shearing gears so there was no point anymore..and catching on fire alot..

pigeon

10-29-2007, 04:09 PM

yes the first few dyno plots at low boost...after we tested the MAF's plot range from 10-22psi...no other wideband testing was done since I knew it was running ok in that boost range...And after 22psi the engine was just shearing gears so there was no point anymore..and catching on fire alot..
This was with a non-OE MAF (Cobra) and with upgraded injectors (480cc) correct?

Wouldn't this already yeild 2 PIPs?

ADAM

10-29-2007, 04:15 PM

here is one of the early testing plots at med boost...you can see in this one..how i had boost creep.....boost was set at 12psi...but creeped up to 14 thru the rev range....due to the Tial 35mm wastegate just not able to bleed enough gas off....this was solved later by a 45mm wastegate..that gave 1/10psi control... also...this was a VERY large .82ar t3 p-trim turbine mated with a t4 h-3 compressor... and it made 12psi boost at 3750rpm...

http://www.turbo240sx.ca/may15dyno2.jpg

this is the actual A/F plot from a test bung in the downpipe

http://www.turbo240sx.ca/may15dyno1.jpg

for fun here is the actual plot...not bad for a single cam truck motor :)..it really picked up power on race fuel and 22psi boost :)

http://www.turbo240sx.ca/may15dyno3.jpg

ADAM

10-29-2007, 04:22 PM

ohh it was lots of PIPS..pips on pips pips....

however the car was out before the new system came into play(pip system)..where it was very fast....then it got boosted by 10% in suspension..and had to run against z06's ..which it could win against sometimes when it was not on fire..

on V8's you will get more power sure...in alot of cases its engine dependent..since the compression will vary....engine design ect...

however its more of a "sum of the parts" issue...

Joet...
how long did you get that engine at 380rwhp to last before the deck let go? do they make a solid block from subaru? or are they all open deck aluminum?

ADAM

10-29-2007, 04:31 PM

for fun..here is the compressor map of the nissan engine plotted at the boost levels that I was interested in at the time.....I only made it to 22psi..so the top line was never used..close but no cigar... however you can see that you can maximise turbo swaps so that you get absolute best thermal efficiency from the compressor...at the expense of streetability..since most of the lower RPM range is in the unstable surge area...however up top where you race...its pure efficiency..i think at 22psi its outputting over 450cfm if i remember the conversion right x13 to get from lbs/min to cfm? ? bahh its been so long..anyway..fun stuff

http://www.turbo240sx.ca/T04BH-3.gif

ADAM

10-29-2007, 04:34 PM

Slowpoke

10-29-2007, 04:35 PM

"boost response aka WGDC"

thats another advantage turbo cars have...control over the feel of power delivery....I know on my blitz sbc unit...it allowed speed based boost control...and best of all...you could set wastegate response...so that it would control the wastegate valve....

so normally on all the mechnical controllers the valve will crack open before the desired boost is met..which bleeds the exhaust charge off..which sucks...on these new units it keeps it closed until the boost level is met..and only then opens it up....gives you more response on big turbos...

Keep in mind that for the sake of this discussing these two to four PIPs, that manipulating boost pressure in any way is not included. You can't even change the WGCD to build boost quicker yet not exceed the same boost level. That would be an additional 3 PIPs according to the current rules. You can't "affect" the boost pressure.

JoeT

10-29-2007, 04:42 PM

Joet...
how long did you get that engine at 380rwhp to last before the deck let go? do they make a solid block from subaru? or are they all open deck aluminum?

It didn't, the block let go during tuning. The open deck blocks can only take up to 320 whp ish (AWHP, Not RWHP LOL). When I switched out the VF39 for a custom turbo (600 Cfm @ 18 Psi), not that we're going to run that, that's when it blew up. I'm building the engine to put out enough power, respectable like, and turn it down for reliablity, while still getting great fuel efficiency and maintain driveclean passability.

The EJ20 except for the EJ20G were all open deck blocks. The EJ251's came open deck, and the EJ255 / 7 came in semi closed deck. Basically an open deck block with 4 little 1/4" pieces of aluminum to stabilize the block. The EJ257's have been known to hold 600 AWHP in stock trim, if you replace the pistons.

The only closed deck block was from the 1992 - 93 Legacy Turbo and it had 2.2 Litres of displacement, this was the same block (with center thrust bearing, instead of rear) that ran on the Impreza 22B.

Cranks are all forged right out of the factory.

JoeT

10-29-2007, 04:47 PM

"Did you know that on a WRX (similar to an STI) ecu, closed loop is up to 4000+ rpm and 40 percent of throttle. Plus it's on a 2 line map "only" and can't be modified. Even if you tried to modify the timing in the closed loop map, it will be ignored."

hmmm...anyway to rip out that OEM stuff..they must make some good chip sets now ...before you haveto go standalone no?

Nope, can't rip out the chip, these OBD2 ECU's are all canbus and can be reprogrammed, but you still have to stick with the parameters given to you. There are lots of OPenECU options for reprogramming and creative tuning technicques, but the only way to completely eliminate the closed loop fiasco on our engines, is to completely unplug the front O2 sensor. Then and only then will it follow the open loop maps.

Sad but true.

Back on topic for a sec. Changing Timing alone without changing the fuel, boost, parameters results in negligable results.

An aftermarket forced induction fabricated system, can't be compared, and can't be used as basis for this discussion.

Thankie

thgear

10-29-2007, 04:55 PM

Back on topic for a sec. Changing Timing alone without changing the fuel, boost, parameters results in negligable results.

An aftermarket forced induction fabricated system, can't be compared, and can't be used as basis for this discussion.

Thankie

the former is not optimization

the latter is

pips assume optimization

your argument is invalid

JoeT

10-29-2007, 04:58 PM

the former is not optimization

the latter is

pips assume optimization

your argument is invalid

I don't understand your post.

OEM engines are closer to optimized than something you put together (assembled) in your garage... What is it that you're trying to say?

Besides, Adam's engine was far from being optimized, since he had to detune to work below 22Psi. (it sheared gears on his tranny)... LOL

thgear

10-29-2007, 05:05 PM

I don't understand your post.

OEM engines are closer to optimized than something you put in your garage... What is it that you're trying to say?

optimized for performance or optimized for the daily grind, making sure the car starts in any weather from the first turn of the key, even with shitty gas in the tank (since the average consumer WILL put 87 octane in their turbo cars to "save money on gas")

the argument i keep hearing is that the 4 to 2 pip comparison of a turbo and NA engine is not fair and that it should be equalized or brought down.

when the fact of the matter is that at any point in time you are dealing with more air in a turbo engine than an NA engine.

lets take two engines, my 2.0 and for arguments sake an SR20 from a nissan, lets say the SR runs at 1 BAR, that means at any given point there is twice the air in the SR than in the 2.0, roughly.

and funny enough, a dyno will roughly indicate that with a doubling of the power (obviously the marginal benefit of more boost falls the higher you go but at 1 BAR things are, in my experience from looking at graphs, kept pretty much true)

anyway the point is, that ADAM is trying to beat into your heads, and something that i agree with even though i'm not an FI expert, is that even just tuning with timing, and assuming you are optimizing with fuel, you can on average get more out of a turbo engine than an NA engine.

"optimized for racing"

i'm quite certain that running rocket fuel and advancing the hell out of your timing you can make your car undrivable on the street, but it will be one hell of a race car....

ScotcH

10-29-2007, 05:10 PM

I just saw this after I posted my last post. Did both vehicles only get a +5* advance, and nothing else?

We any fuel pressure/injector duration adjustments made to the turbo car?

The issue is not just timing ... it EVERYTHING you can do, without touching boost.

JoeT

10-29-2007, 05:10 PM

anyway the point is, that ADAM is trying to beat into your heads, and something that i agree with even though i'm not an FI expert, is that even just tuning with timing, and assuming you are optimizing with fuel, you can on average get more out of a turbo engine than an NA engine.

"optimized for racing"

We hear what you're saying.. But the argument doesn't hold water. That's what this entire conversation is about. Changine fuel and timing will not result in greater HP alone! Yes it will yield more power and torque in some instances, but not 30 Hp, that's being claimed.

The 2nd part of the argument is for Factory FI cars vs Aftermarket FI cars, those are 2 completely different animals and should not be used for apples to apples comparisons.

thgear

10-29-2007, 05:16 PM

[QUOTE=thgear;113705]
anyway the point is, that ADAM is trying to beat into your heads, and something that i agree with even though i'm not an FI expert, is that even just tuning with timing, and assuming you are optimizing with fuel, you can on average get more out of a turbo engine than an NA engine.

"optimized for racing"

[QUOTE]

We hear what you're saying.. But the argument doesn't hold water. That's what this entire conversation was about.

but it does hold water! hahaha

you always have more air in a turbo engine! more air more crap that you can do with it.

if i give you a 10cm stick and a 1meter stick, you can leverage heavier objects with the 1m stick, even though they are both sticks!

get it?

Slowpoke

10-29-2007, 05:18 PM

The issue is not just timing ... it EVERYTHING you can do, without touching boost.

Actually, no, you have to take an extra PIP in 5.0.C.3 if you're changing fuel pressure, injectors, fuel pump, fuel sensors.

You SHOULD be taking an extra 1 or 3 PIPs under 5.0.E.2 5.0.E.1 if your chipping changes the VTEC changeover point, or # of degrees.

JoeT

10-29-2007, 05:18 PM

[QUOTE=JoeT;113707][QUOTE=thgear;113705]
anyway the point is, that ADAM is trying to beat into your heads, and something that i agree with even though i'm not an FI expert, is that even just tuning with timing, and assuming you are optimizing with fuel, you can on average get more out of a turbo engine than an NA engine.

"optimized for racing"

but it does hold water! hahaha

you always have more air in a turbo engine! more air more crap that you can do with it.

if i give you a 10cm stick and a 1meter stick, you can leverage heavier objects with the 1m stick, even though they are both sticks!

get it?

Oh, I'll give you a VF10 Turbo and you can try to make power out of that. BTW, a VF10 Turbo puts out at Maximum about 180 CFM of air.. Good luck with that.

From an educated perspective, can you tell me the difference between a TD05-20G vs an Garrett GT-42?

Figure those things out and you'll know for yourself that a turbo makes an excellent restrictor. You can't lump all turbo's in one basket, that's why we're talking OEM.

thgear

10-29-2007, 05:23 PM

[QUOTE=thgear;113708][QUOTE=JoeT;113707]

Oh, I'll give you a VF10 Turbo and you can try to make power out of that. BTW, a VF10 Turbo puts out at Maximum about 180 CFM of air.. Good luck with that.

From an educated perspective, can you tell me the difference between a TD05-20G vs an IHI VF34?

Figure those things out and you'll know for yourself that a turbo makes an excellent restrictor. You can't lump all turbo's in one basket, that's why we're talking OEM.

here is my uneducated but quite simple solution

dyno your car!

like was mentioned at the CCC meeting, why in the world would you touch your turbo engines management system and NOT double check its effect on a dyno.

maybe you got a faulty reflash/chip, maybe it was incorrect, maybe it was bogus, maybe more tuning is required!

my personal view on the entire engine side pip schedule is that it SUX and has alot of loopholes and dead ends.

if i ever go and tune my engine with various parts, i'm just going to dyno it and leave it at that, since i'll never be able to match the pip schedule.

you guys are fighting over penuts.

JoeT

10-29-2007, 05:27 PM

[QUOTE=JoeT;113710][QUOTE=thgear;113708]

my personal view on the entire engine side pip schedule is that it SUX and has alot of loopholes and dead ends.

if i ever go and tune my engine with various parts, i'm just going to dyno it and leave it at that, since i'll never be able to match the pip schedule.

you guys are fighting over penuts.

Now that's something we can agree on. But I'm not arguing for my benefit, I'm speaking on behalf of the folks that happen to have Autocross tunes on their reflashes.

Ones that go pig rich with lots of advance using pump gas, in order to help spool, but do not make any more HP than stock cars. Some of these people will be out on the track with you next year.

Remember my other post! Why do we make it so difficult for them to join in on the fun. It's for this exact reason, to reduce the intimidation factor, percieved or otherwise, so that you can increase the attendance any maybe even make money so that the contributing clubs can realize something from their hard earned deposits to the OSO. (That's another story)

Let's make it easy on them.

thgear

10-29-2007, 05:31 PM

Let's make it easy on them.

we usualy get 1 or 2 dyno days through out the year, you get 3 runs or something for dirt cheap, 50-70 dollars.

i dynoed my car with only an intake and exhaust , just for shits and giggles to see what would happen.

why dont they? its not a hassle, its very easy, cheap, and will give you the peace of mind that you know exactly how much power your car is making

who knows, maybe you'll find out that your car actualy has problems, save you an expensive repair bill down the line.

again, you are fighting for penuts trying to change the pip value of a freakin ECU upgrade!

ScotcH

10-29-2007, 11:21 PM

Actually, no, you have to take an extra PIP in 5.0.C.3 if you're changing fuel pressure, injectors, fuel pump, fuel sensors.

Read rule 5.0.C.2 again, carfully :)

Slowpoke

10-30-2007, 07:41 AM

Read rule 5.0.C.2 again, carfully :)

Doh!

CobraStang

10-30-2007, 09:35 AM

Most OEM turbocharged or high-compression vehicles already require 91 octane from the factory, where as medium-compression naturally-aspirated motors usually only require 87 octane.What do you consider to be medium compression? My car's engine requires 91 octane in stock form, with less than 10:1 compression. If I look around, I'm sure I'd find more examples.

ADAM

10-30-2007, 10:00 AM

hehe.. Joet.. the car was as optimized as you are going to get :)

however the tranny just was not made to handle that much torque :)

JoeT

10-30-2007, 10:19 AM

hehe.. Joet.. the car was as optimized as you are going to get :)

however the tranny just was not made to handle that much torque :)

Chicken!! :p I went through 3 trannies and multiple axles before I settled (by default) on DSS Axles and the current Tranny. Heavier, but thank goodness for race weights. LOL :D

Cap'n Pete

10-31-2007, 10:17 AM

running stock computer on the ls1 ...so no way to adjust the bugger....its all coil pack on cylinder
What do you mean, no way of adjusting?!?! :confused: The factory computer can be re-programmed to basically any parameters you want (timing, fuel, etc.). I have "heard" of some pretty wild "claims" of ~25-30 HP increases just by tuning a stock LS1, but have serious doubts of that (obviously dyno would be the only way to prove it). I think picking up ~10 - 15 HP after a tune, by someone who really knows what they're doing is entirely possible though.

If you don't know who / how to get your engine tuned (not that it really needs it stock), I know of at least a couple reputable LS1 builders/tuners :cool:.

Just for a point of interest though, I have a hand-held "Hypertech Power Programmer" for my Camaro. I bought it to correct for different gear ratios in my car. However, it has a "power tuning" option. Running that, the car would ping like there was no tomorrow, even running 91 octane! So I ran Sunoco 94. I had the car dyno'd, and while running on the dyno, it was STILL pinging! So I pulled the program, went back to stock (while still hooked to the dyno) and ran again ... no pinging on the stock tune, and the power only dropped by 1 HP! :rolleyes: Point being, just because the fuel & timing curves were significantly advanced (way too much, apparently!) it basically had no positive effect on the LS1. Unless you have mods to justify, it's not necessary (or worthwhile) to really mess with the stock program.

thgear

10-31-2007, 10:19 AM

What do you mean, no way of adjusting?!?! :confused: The factory computer can be re-programmed to basically any parameters you want (timing, fuel, etc.). I have "heard" of some pretty wild "claims" of ~25-30 HP increases just by tuning a stock LS1, but have serious doubts of that (obviously dyno would be the only way to prove it). I think picking up ~10 - 15 HP after a tune, by someone who really knows what they're doing is entirely possible though.

If you don't know who / how to get your engine tuned (not that it really needs it stock), I know of at least a couple reputable LS1 builders/tuners :cool:.

Just for a point of interest though, I have a hand-held "Hypertech Power Programmer" for my Camaro. I bought it to correct for different gear ratios in my car. However, it has a "power tuning" option. Running that, the car would ping like there was no tomorrow, even running 91 octane! So I ran Sunoco 94. I had the car dyno'd, and while running on the dyno, it was STILL pinging! So I pulled the program, went back to stock (while still hooked to the dyno) and ran again ... no pinging on the stock tune, and the power only dropped by 1 HP! :rolleyes: Point being, just because the fuel & timing curves were significantly advanced (way too much, apparently!) it basically had no positive effect on the LS1. Unless you have mods to justify, it's not necessary (or worthwhile) to really mess with the stock program.

have you tried said power option with jet fuel?? :confused:

ADAM

10-31-2007, 10:52 AM

"What do you mean, no way of adjusting?!?! "

I meant in a mechanical way ..like a dizzy..of cousrse I know you can change the program :)

Cap'n Pete

10-31-2007, 01:13 PM

have you tried said power option with jet fuel?? :confused:
LOL! Probably not a bad idea! I think when I FIRST plugged in that Hypertech, I actually had 87 octane in the tank ... I'm not even kidding, it would ping just off idle! :rolleyes: I pulled the tune 'til I filled up with 91. Even then, I noticed it pinging slightly under load. So I ran 94 pretty much religiously, until I dyno'd the car, and on the dyno, the guy could hear it pinging STILL!! Based on that experience (and the fact that the power only changed by 1 HP!) then I've scrapped that "power program", and only use that tuner to do gear changes, etc.

I suppose race fuel may be able to support the degree of timing advancement that stupid programmer was going for though!?!

I meant in a mechanical way ..like a dizzy..of cousrse I know you can change the program :)
Ok, the way you said "running stock computer on the ls1 ...so no way to adjust the bugger" I took you very literally. I can't see a fellow LS1 guy being deprived of its power!! ;)

So in terms of the meeting you guys had on Saturday, what decisions were made regarding some of the "hot topics" of late? Are we going to see some major changes to the rule book for next year? Or is this still a "process" that has to be worked through??????

..... just another impatient inquiring mind!!! :p

ADAM

10-31-2007, 01:43 PM

havnt tried messing with the LS1 yet..no point since its got enough power for now anyway...

I have seen some dyno plots that are crazy with just cams and intake manifold, lots of upgradeability

Slowpoke

10-31-2007, 02:36 PM

So I ran 94 pretty much religiously, until I dyno'd the car, and on the dyno, the guy could hear it pinging STILL!! Based on that experience (and the fact that the power only changed by 1 HP!) then I've scrapped that "power program", and only use that tuner to do gear changes, etc.

I suppose race fuel may be able to support the degree of timing advancement that stupid programmer was going for though!?!

If your OBDII engine's knock sensor ALSO detected ping, then it should have retarded timing so far that no, you shouldn't have seen a HP increase.

Did you drain the tank properly before switching to fresh 94 octane?

Pro Race Fuels Mark II, zero lead, 110 octane, $3.05 a litre. Mississauga Road and Britannia in Streetsville, one block south, one block west, north side. They fill jerry cans. They also have up to 115 octane without lead for $3.75 a litre, but you can't just dump that in most street engines.

Same stuff that Stinson's carries in Ottawa.

Cap'n Pete

10-31-2007, 03:50 PM

If your OBDII engine's knock sensor ALSO detected ping, then it should have retarded timing so far that no, you shouldn't have seen a HP increase.
Good point ... you're absolutely right, the knock sensors would be pulling timing back to eliminate the knock, although apparently they couldn't quite keep up! :rolleyes:

Did you drain the tank properly before switching to fresh 94 octane?
If driving "nice" until any of the severe knock/ping condition went away, and only running high octane after that is considered "proper draining", then yes! :D