If I were new to the sport and started reading these forums..

[JoeT]

If I were new to the sport and started reading the forums. I would have to ask myself "What the heck am I getting into". I've modded my car according to what I'm comfortable with, CASC-OR's tag line is "We've got the place to race", but after reading the rule books, web sites, and forums, all I can say is...

Holy Moly it'll take me forever to "want" to come out to one of these events.

From a newbie perspective (constructive criticism), here's what we see:

1) PIP, what the heck is a PIP. People keep on talking about PIP's (Yeah I know what it is, just explaining from a newbie perspective)

2) How does a newbie check what class his car is in!! CCDB, you mean I have to register in a CCDB and figure out how the heck I enter information into that thing, only to be intimidated and asked information that I may or may not know. Plus it's cryptic, how do I edit or aaaarrrggghhhhh (Just explaining from the newbie perspective, I know how to work the CCDB, after a few tries)

3) Rule book!! How come the rule book does not match the ccdb? Which one do I follow? (Again, from a newbie perspective)

4) When I do go out and have fun and somehow miraculously classify my car, figure out that I have to pay ASN (who are they?) 60 Bucks Tax (License), and finally get to the track the people are very nice, and the track time is kinda fun, but I notice cars on trailers that's going to compete in my class. OMG :eek: , hummmmm...

So after all is said and done, is it worth it?

In comparison, I can go to 3 or 4 CSCS events, and pay my 100 bucks, don't need any Competition Tax, don't need my engineering degree to classify the cars, don't need special tires (they class your car according to very basic classifications).

So, I wonder which one I should go to, or attend? (Newbie Perspective)

Back to normal now:
This is what solosprint is competing with, SteveD put a nice picture of an ostrich with it's head in the sand, people wonder why both Solosprint and Autoslalom are dwindling in participation.

Sometimes it's good to take a step back, and do a reset to ask ourselves, what's the mission of solosprint, autoslalom, CASC-OR.

If we've really got the place to race, why do we make it so difficult?

Just some thoughts. It is the "Silly Season" btw.

My .02 cents.

[thgear]

a wise man will ask questions when faced with a problem...

the newbie in your newbie perspetive needs to simply ask for clarification and not assume anything.

when i joined this sport i knew nothing, but i found this forum quickly and had all my questiones answered in a matter of days!

[JoeT]

a wise man will ask questions when faced with a problem...

the newbie in your newbie perspetive needs to simply ask for clarification and not assume anything.

when i joined this sport i knew nothing, but i found this forum quickly and had all my questiones answered in a matter of days!

Your experience was totally different from mine, I asked (and still have the emails) many times to some wise men on the forum with regards to interpretation and classifications. After repeated attempts and multiple CC's to many many people, one person was able to answer intelligently.

But the point of the note is:

If we've really got the place to race, why do we make it so difficult?

Also

What is the mission of solosprint and do you manage towards that mission?

Not being a SD, but people have complained that the attendance is dwindling, before you can "act" and make it grow, don't you think that the root cause should be identified?

Times change, competition changes, event's change, and organizations must be prepared to change with the times in order to grow. Unless, the mission does not include growth.

Just stimulating thought, nothing more nothing less.

[Slowpoke]

All of the OSO clubs (TAC, HADA, MCO, OMSC, SPDA) have a Solosprint Director who should also be helping new people through the classification system. It is a little daunting with convergence and all.

The CCDB is far more user-friendly than the old system. It's so helpful, in fact, that this results in some people not bothering to read the actual rules.

As for proposed rule changes, I think most are doing it to try to better balance the field. No one proposes things to make it more complicated. Longer rulesets are the consequence of a series that tries to balance all makes of car, versus a spec car series.

I thought that the $60 fee was another form of ASN levy... I've been corrected that these funds go to CASC-OR, not direct to ASN. Where the $60 license money is used for, I'm not sure. The fee did increase 20% this year, so that would be a good question for CASC-OR, so we can at least tell people WHY they're paying $60 for a "License" when there's no actual qualifications in getting one that you didn't have to have to participate in Autoslalom. (You need a driver's license, and a ASN affiliated club membership.)

Economics seem to be a reason for reduced motorsport participation in 2007. Most of my personal proposals for Solo keep in mind that we should be promoting lower cost of competition and improved accessibility to the sport That's not to say that you can't spend money if you want to but it should be possible for a good driver to be competitive with "what ya brung".

Let's just hope that newbies don't visit the forums until March when most of this dirty laundry and chaos is done with. ;)

I THINK that this is the closest thing to Solosprint's misssion statement:

http://www.soloontario.com/about_solo.html

I can't find a mission statement for CASC-OR on the website. This page describes the history of CASC-OR, but not really what it's supposed to be doing:

http://www.casc.on.ca/history.php

ASN Describes what they do now. I think this is a recently updated page:

http://www.asncanada.com/about/About%20ASN%20Canada.html

[thgear]

I THINK that this is the closest thing to Solosprint's misssion statement:

http://www.soloontario.com/about_solo.html

I can't find a mission statement for CASC-OR or ASN Canada on their websites.

hahah, i wrote that! :D

[JoeT]

hahah, i wrote that! :D

That's more of an overview, rather than a mission statement. I'm sure y'all know what a mission statement is... LOL :D

In general, the focus is set by the "Mission Statement" and strategies are placed to achieve the mission. (I'll stop harping on that). :p

How about some more healthy discussion...

What are the goals of Solosprint in tems of the following:

Attracting new attendees
Promoting competition
Increasing awareness
Benefits
etc...

[ADAM]

"they class your car according to very basic classifications"

ummm there is no real compitition in that series...

[ScotcH]

What is CSCS?
What parts of the rule book differ from the CCDB? That should not be the case.

Joe, I can see your point, but really, if you want to get into anything, it takes a bit of research. This is not like Lapping, where you don't need to worry about competitiveness and such. We're trying to make this sport as good, fair, and fun as it can be, and that takes work from everyone. I think Stephen hit it right on ... your club is there to help ... use them!

And Joe, if YOU figgured out how to use the CCDB, there is hope for everyone ;)

[kmorris]

I think that Joe has a good point to be made, and we shouldn't just pick holes in his posting and blow it off. Participation was pretty light this year, and we should always have one eye on the health of the sport if we want it to be strong.

There are definitely some barriers to entry in this sport, and the complexity of choosing and preparing the car is one of them. Maybe we should accompany the rule book with a "getting started" type document to help guide people through the process.

The lack of participation has been as much from people staying away as a lack of new people. Is anyone following up with people who used to be regulars and don't come out anymore? What's keeping them away?

And what about the amount of sniping and political b(&^^%$t that happens on this board? There's nothing wrong with a little debate, a little trash talk etc, but lately the helpful and inclusive atmosphere that has generally been very obvious in this series seems to be a little on the decline. There seems to be a rise in the number of competitors whining, bickering and generally doing other things than going out and having fun on track in their cars. This is a shame, because it detracts from what is generally an amazingly fun sport with a great group of people.

[thgear]

Maybe we should accompany the rule book with a "getting started" type document to help guide people through the process.


that would be a great idea, do you want to volunteer for this position?

[kmorris]

that would be a great idea, do you want to volunteer for this position?

D'oh!

I suppose I could help out. You can e-mail me if you want to discuss it further - kevin at firstclass dot com.

[jcbarnard]

I am new and browsing the forums, I think you are right on the ball.

I've been a HPDE'er for a few seasons and have been thinking more about doing timed competition. I'm very knowledgeable when it comes to car setup and modifications, but your rule book is a brutal read :D Quite honestly I feel intimidated, and I think these events may be beyond me in terms of financial obligation and commitment (but I could be wrong).

Cheers.

[thgear]

D'oh!

I suppose I could help out. You can e-mail me if you want to discuss it further - kevin at firstclass dot com.

there isnt anything much to discuss,

a "newbie" manual is something that people have wanted for a long time, i attempted at one last year but sort of had it pushed back and back and back (dr.dave is probably glaring at me)

so if someone else wants to take over and compile a "newbie user manual", they can go right ahead, present their draft either on the boards or at the monthly solosprint meeting (which anyone can attend) and then just post that on the website

easy cheese

hardest part is actualy sitting down and writing it... :)

[ScotcH]

I am new and browsing the forums, I think you are right on the ball.

I've been a HPDE'er for a few seasons and have been thinking more about doing timed competition. I'm very knowledgeable when it comes to car setup and modifications, but your rule book is a brutal read :D Quite honestly I feel intimidated, and I think these events may be beyond me in terms of financial obligation and commitment (but I could be wrong).

Cheers.

Which parts of the rule book do you find hard to read? This is a serious question :) If it's the PIP schedule section, then most of the complexity has been aleviated with the online Car Classification Database ... it's kinda like an interview, where all you have to do is check off any modifications that apply to you. The rest of the book deals with general competition rules, scoring, etc.

I wonder if we could reorganize the rule book so that all the basic stuff is first, and the complex stuff is in appendixes that are only there for reference, but not actually reauired reading (like how PAX works, the PIP schedule, the Convergence tables, etc.) What we'd end up with would essentially BE the "getting started" guide, with the rule book a supplimentary detailed document.

[jcbarnard]

I have not seen the website, I'll check it out.

Yeah I'm basically trying to class my car, figure out where I'll be with the modifications that I already have done and who I'll be driving against.
Then, plan to remove/upgrade parts as necessary at that point depending on my budget and the competition.

I've figured out PI, sPIPS, bPIPs, safety etc. but it really doesn't mean much to me lol I think I need to come out to an event next year. Is the classification similar to autoX where nudging yourself into the next class means annihilation unless you plan at running at the top of that class?

[ScotcH]

I have not seen the website, I'll check it out.

Yeah I'm basically trying to class my car, figure out where I'll be with the modifications that I already have done and who I'll be driving against.
Then, plan to remove/upgrade parts as necessary at that point depending on my budget and the competition.

I've figured out PI, sPIPS, bPIPs, safety etc. but it really doesn't mean much to me lol I think I need to come out to an event next year. Is the classification similar to autoX where nudging yourself into the next class means annihilation unless you plan at running at the top of that class?

The Online CCDB will greatly simply this for you :) As for being at the bottom of a class, yes, you will be annihilated :) However, even being at the top of the class does not mean a cakewalk ... there are some every good and experienced drivers in SoloSprint!

[Cap'n Pete]

... the online Car Classification Database ... it's kinda like an interview, where all you have to do is check off any modifications that apply to you. The rest of the book deals with general competition rules, scoring, etc.

I wonder if we could reorganize the rule book so that all the basic stuff is first, and the complex stuff is in appendixes that are only there for reference, but not actually required reading (like how PAX works, the PIP schedule, the Convergence tables, etc.)
I just finished my first (almost) complete season of SoloSprint, and I competed at just 2 or 3 events last year ('06). When it came to classifying my car, I did just that ... logged onto the database, went through the check-list, and voila!, the computer told me where I was! :) I only had 1 modification that I was a little unsure of, so I asked about it during registration for my first event, got the clarification I needed, and I was on my way. I NEVER read the rule book whatsoever until some time this summer! :D (I'm sure that's sort of "frowned upon", but hey, I showed up, attended the drivers' meetings, did as I was told, followed the "rules", and learned some of the "technicalities" as I went). To be honest, the rule-book, while (obviously) explaining in-depth the nitty-gritty, doesn't seem "necessary" to read cover-to-cover if you don't really care "how" people are classed/scored/etc. If you want to show up at a race track and race your car against other people (my initial draw into the sport) c'mon out, bring your car, bring a helmet, find which class you're in, and go nuts!!

I never seemed to care about all the "rules" until I decided to (attempt to) get competitive! ;) So far, I should just leave that challenge alone!! LOL

IMHO, as a relatively new member to SoloSprint, I think it would be beneficial to ALL to sort out the issues-at-hand (ie: the 'uber' tire debate, aero, etc.) and make the rules/classification more transparent, so they make sense to a new comer. Otherwise, you show up to your first event, see a guy bolting on a fresh pair of slicks (ie: Hoosiers with 2 grooves that might as well not be there), the car is all tricked out with spoilers, and a roll cage, and it may even be the same make as your car ... then you find out you're in the same class!! :eek: ... meanwhile, you showed up with your daily-driver, on street tires, with nothing more than a run-of-the-mill suspension (ie: brand-"x" springs & shocks). It can be pretty intimidating at first. And more and more frustrating the longer you participate! But you want to know HOW/WHY you can be in the same class as that guy .....

..... I think as long as we can have CONSTRUCTIVE discussions on this board, there should be no reason for anybody new to run away scared for their life?! If they see that everybody is OPEN to discussing ideas that are for the "greater good" and "future" of the sport (again, constructive, not involving personal flames/attacks) then I think we still have a good "community" here :cool:. Maybe I'm an exception to the rule, but I'm not being scared off (yet!) because of the bickering!!!

[Dave Barker]

I am new and browsing the forums, I think you are right on the ball.

I've been a HPDE'er for a few seasons and have been thinking more about doing timed competition. I'm very knowledgeable when it comes to car setup and modifications, but your rule book is a brutal read :D Quite honestly I feel intimidated, and I think these events may be beyond me in terms of financial obligation and commitment (but I could be wrong).

Cheers.

The difference between HPDE and SoloSprint is significant. I kind of see HPDE or lapping as similar to playing shinny in hockey or not keeping score in golf. Fun but not exciting.

We DO keep score which makes it more intense than just lapping but frankly more fun. Unfortunately to make the competition fair (and keep it fun and affordable), we need a number of rules and a significant rule book. Unfortunately the rules makers can't be perfect all the time and the types of cars and car prep is constantly changing, so the rules cannot remain static (as much as we would like them to). The discussions on this board re aero and pipping very fast tires are just attempts to find a balance between allowing an " anything goes" type of competition and a totally controlled spec series. These are up for discussion as the problems they present were not anticipated when the original linear car classification system was devised.

Our goal (Joe) is to provide a safe venue where drivers of any car can pit themselves against other driver/ car combinations in timed competition that does not favour any one particular car. ( In the past, the previous classification system was nothing like this. Despite having significantly more classes than now and less competition per class, if you didn't have a Z06 vette, E46 BMW or Integra type R, you weren't running for first place without very extensive mods, and even then it was difficult. The previous classification had definite class winning cars and certainly did not favour "run what you brung" if you wanted any hope of winning)

I am sorry if you feel intimidated by the rule book but I think you will find the online CCDB very helpful as are the majority of competitors.

[jcbarnard]

Its not the rules themselves that intimidate me, I can add up the numbers, its basically what the captain said above, I know there would be cars in my class much better suited to solo events than mine and figuring out what works and where I should run will take time.

Not that it matters, it's all about having fun, not mention that the driver is the most important mod ;) If I can't participate at a few events next year I'll come out to one at the very least to meet and talk to some more experienced people.

[Slowpoke]

Generally, don't sweat the class you end up in unless you're sure you want to make a full attempt at a novice year. Besides, there may be some significant shifting around of competitors depending on how the rules discussion goes.

The determination of a "novice" is 3 Solosprint events or less in previous years. So you COULD just plan to do three events in 2008 to get a feel for it, and attack the novice championship in 2009.

Your first year, just generally aim to squeeze your car into the lowest class possible without having to remove major upgrades that you've done. If it means just taking off one ugraded sway bar and going back to a stock swaybar, you're probably better off than leaving it on and being in the bottom of a higher class.

[chankiu]

I agree with JoeT's points

I went though the same things when first thought of doing solosprint.
but after a while I finally figured it out.. but when I did it was too late to try.
so I will most likely try next year...
but the PIP thing told me I am SGT1... yikes...

I don't want to have to take of mods so my thought is just.. blah.. I don't care how I rank.. just want to get some timed laps.. thats all.. :rolleyes:

but CSCS time attacks.. they are dead simple...
it's pretty much just what kind of tires you have.. and thats about it...

[Slowpoke]

but the PIP thing told me I am SGT1... yikes...

Have you chipped up the boost? Changed the catback (or turbo back)? If so, yeah, those 7 to 9 ePIPs are brutal compared to the gains you get. 9 PIPs for 20 - 30 horsepower. But that's why we have the dyno plot option.

Chet, did you try the dyno plot option to put in your peak horsepower along with boost/ecu mods? That should bring your class down in the "Dyno" column at the end.

Unfortunately there's no equivalent in our system for the Neetronics dyno since that's a custom piece, if you've done pulls there. But the numbers on the Cobb site are with a Mustang dyno and would give you an idea of where you would slot in if you had your car dynoed.

[chankiu]

ya.. it's just turboback, uppipe and reflashed ecu.... don't have any other power mods..

but got a ton of PIP for my suspension mods..

/shrugs

[JoeT]

Hi All,

2 real newcomers responded to this thread, without instigation from myself. Yes Chet is a Subaru guy, and it's not a conspiracy.

As you can see by some people's responses, there is a real challenge. I strongly believe that if you want to increase participation perhaps a graduated system should be adapted.

Junior or rookie challenge within the standard solosprint that uses a subset of the rules. This is where they get their feet wet, then graduate to the more hard core full out full classification system after their first year.

It won't take much effort in doing so, it provides a more "lubricated" way into a tight sport. LOL :D IMHO, you're more apt to acquire new attendees that way than if you dunk them into the boiling oil immediately.

(Adam) This is what constructive criticism is all about...

[chankiu]

I am also wondering about the Classification website...
is there something I need to do to keep my user account?
I put my car into in like at the beginning of the year.
I didn't submit anything..
but after I while.. my user account was gone..
I just registered...

[ScotcH]

I am also wondering about the Classification website...
is there something I need to do to keep my user account?
I put my car into in like at the beginning of the year.
I didn't submit anything..
but after I while.. my user account was gone..
I just registered...

That sounds very odd. There WAS an issues where we lost the database around March, and anything entered between Nov 2006 and March 2007 was lost, so that may be your problem. Otherwise, accoutns are never deleted.

[chankiu]

ya.. it was just around that time..

just entered my info again.
damn.. 12 PIP for engine
and 10 for suspension.
SGT1... hmmm

[Cap'n Pete]

^ ^ if uber tires get PIP'd, I'll likely be right there with ya ;). Basically I can't do ANYTHING to the suspension of my car (nothing worthwhile) without getting bumped up into SGT2 :rolleyes:. Add 5 PIPs for tires!! :eek:

Where's the -10 PIPs for the lack-of-driver mod?!?!?!?!?!? :o

[thgear]

the way solosprint is set up, it really does punish the people who mod their car on the street extensivly, then show up to a solosprint event and get their asses handed to them by cars with half the mods.

so their ego's are bruised and they just go back to lapping days.

[chankiu]

I should really get a dyno plot .....
just uppipe, turbo-back exhaust and reflash.. and I get 12 points....

[chankiu]

the way solosprint is set up, it really does punish the people who mod their car on the street extensivly, then show up to a solosprint event and get their asses handed to them by cars with half the mods.

so their ego's are bruised and they just go back to lapping days.

well it's not like I have a big ego or anything...
all i want to do is learn....

[thgear]

I should really get a dyno plot .....
just uppipe, turbo-back exhaust and reflash.. and I get 12 points....

remember our system is setup to ASSUME that you are building a F1 contender,

that means your turbo-back exhaust will be the perfect diameter and made out of titanium, and your ECU flash is a result of 100 dyno tuning hours and so forth.

so getting a dyno is the best option in the case such as yours.

also, what have you done for suspension?

[thgear]

well it's not like I have a big ego or anything...
all i want to do is learn....

then you shouldnt care at all about this whole pip schedule :)

[chankiu]

ya.. you are right.
just going to run...

i changed my sways and coilovers...
some addition things like anti-lift kit.

[Slowpoke]

ya.. it was just around that time..

just entered my info again.
damn.. 12 PIP for engine
and 10 for suspension.
SGT1... hmmm
Using Cobb's 224.4 whp on a Mustang dyno for Stage 2 you're in SGT2 with 85.1 PI. Go back to a stock front sway bar, or have your tuner shave 2hp off the peak and you're optimized for SGT3 with Avi's STi and Paul's WRX.

(This assumes of course that you are actually making 224.4whp on an eddy current dyno. You might already be making less than that and be in SGT3 with room to spare.)

[thgear]

ya.. you are right.
just going to run...

i changed my sways and coilovers...
some addition things like anti-lift kit.

2 saybars and coilovers would only net you around 6 pips... where are the other 4?

[Slowpoke]

swaybars = 2
springs = 4
shock body = 2
non-stock alignment = 1
bushings = 1


(Standard Scooby mod progression)

Good thing you run stock cars, Serge, or we'd have to protest you.

[chankiu]

^^^ ya you beat me too it

[thgear]

heh, i thought all subaru's are 80% susp... his is only 60, i was thinking about convergence but i guess there is none of that.

[JoeT]

heh, i thought all subaru's are 80% susp... his is only 60, i was thinking about convergence but i guess there is none of that.

Not all Subaru's... :D

[jcbarnard]

I have a few questions, maybe someone can provide some insight?

I have a deka 12lbs battery, same power rating as my OE, is this battery approved? Would I receive pips because of it?

I drive an RSX, how are factory options treated such as the Aspec package (springs/shocks, rear wing)? I bought it from the dealer that way.

And with regards to updating or backdating of suspension components,
I have various parts from the Japanese type r model of my car. There is no SUSP rating for that car, I imagine it would be higher to due stiffer springs/shocks and better factory alignment. Would I recieve pips for these parts (dampers, control arms, sways etc.) because I'm replacing them for an obvious performance bump? They are OE in different markets. The reason I ask is because I already have them on my car and I would keep them if they were free, but replace them with much better components if pips were added.

[ScotcH]

I have a few questions, maybe someone can provide some insight?

I have a deka 12lbs battery, same power rating as my OE, is this battery approved? Would I receive pips because of it?

I drive an RSX, how are factory options treated such as the Aspec package (springs/shocks, rear wing)? I bought it from the dealer that way.

And with regards to updating or backdating of suspension components,
I have various parts from the Japanese type r model of my car. There is no SUSP rating for that car, I imagine it would be higher to due stiffer springs/shocks and better factory alignment. Would I recieve pips for these parts (dampers, control arms, sways etc.) because I'm replacing them for an obvious performance bump? They are OE in different markets. The reason I ask is because I already have them on my car and I would keep them if they were free, but replace them with much better components if pips were added.

Battery is 1PIP for sure. The A-spec package we'd have to look into, but I don't think there is that much different. As for the Type R parts, yes, you'd have to take the PIPs for those

[Ytzman]

As this was my first season (I did 6 out of 9 events) here are my thoughts:
1. Before I went to the Solo School ( well worth the money!) I knew very little about how the events them selves were run/organized etc. i.e. I didn't know how many laps, sessions, etc. maybe it's posted somewhere but I didn't read it.

2. Scoring / Pip's / Competition? as a newbie: who cares!!!! just let me out there and run!!!

3. Who cares what class you're in as a newbie, even with the best optimized care for the class, you probably wont be competative with the experianced drivers. From worst to best, I picked up more than 6 seconds in one day at shannonville (PRO) and another second the next time out.

4. Just to let you know, I trailer in my 84/86/88 mutt of a Pontiac Fiero only because I can't afford to keep it on the road. I've got some "street" mods done (enough to bump me up to T1 from T3) but none of them do me much good since I'm still on street tires and they modifications don't take full advantage of what you could get out of a "race" modification could.

FROM NEWBIE TO NEWBIE: JUST COME OUT AND HAVE FUN! DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE PIPS, SCORING, MODS AND POLITICS. THEY WILL BE THE LAST THING ON YOUR MIND AS YOU ARE RIPPING DOWN THE STRAIGHT WITH A SMILE FROM EAR TO EAR!!

[Cap'n Pete]

FROM NEWBIE TO NEWBIE: JUST COME OUT AND HAVE FUN! DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE PIPS, SCORING, MODS AND POLITICS. THEY WILL BE THE LAST THING ON YOUR MIND AS YOU ARE RIPPING DOWN THE STRAIGHT WITH A SMILE FROM EAR TO EAR!!
That's a lot easier said than done when you have 3 other cars like yours, and a couple pesky "rival" cars out on the field (most of them in your own class) to compete against ;). Suddenly it's difficult to ignore the wannabe-competitive "me too" bug!! :D

... not that I have been bitten by that 'bug' or anything :rolleyes:.

Being as you've got the only Fiero currently running in the series (at least, I don't think there's anyone else currently running with a Fiero??) then you've got nobody else to directly compare to, so you could be driving the wheels off your car, or completely dogging it, and nobody knows any different!! ;) Having the exact same car on the track suddenly makes you realize just how fast you are ... not :rolleyes:.

[nowcritical]

Here is my 3 1/2 cents..

i showed up the first year to the schools with my super decked out Mazda miata, adjustable suspension, brake kit, and all sorts of after market mods that i purchased and had installed. You name it the car had it done! I came with awesome street tires and was ready to beat everyone!

The car was classed in SGT 2 based on the mods and options that I made on the car. It became very clear to me that the car was way more capable and was not setup correctly for the track. I sucked!

My first moment came when I took the street tires of the car and put a set of R compounds Yokohama's on the car. They were the mild version with the hard compound but it was my first step into being a competitive driver.

I spent the year being at the back of the pack being beaten by other cars who had less power, less modes and less brakes! Wow there is something wrong with that. I finally realized that only a good driver can take advantage of the car capabilities. I had instructors amaze me with there ability to make the car dance trough the corners and there 9/10th was way quicker then my full out race mode. I was amazed at how much faster they could take corners
.

The first year was a truly learning year. I did some driving schools, the solo school, bridgstone school and a couple of other in the same year.

I had a lot of fun with my first year! I was relaxed and enjoyed every event. I did not care if I was last but the main focus was fun! I did manage to finish second in my class the first year!

if I would do it all over again then I would take a stock car and add some R compound tires to it and upgrade the brakes. I would make these mods after the solo school or the first event. Street tires and not designed for the temps consistent track use and most brake systems fade after a couple of laps. Stocks setups are very safe at the limit and allow for a huge margin of error when you make a mistake, they tend to communicate what is wrong efficiently to the driver and are very forgiving
Stock cars are also a great teaching tool when it come to weight transfer, grip and braking.

I looked at the rule book and was overwhelmed. I looked at what was required from my point of view and left the car class pips and details to the people who are on the ball about it. I got a helmet a roll bar and showed up!

Very very FUN!!

[Chuck91GT]

As this was my first season (I did 6 out of 9 events) here are my thoughts:
1. Before I went to the Solo School ( well worth the money!) I knew very little about how the events them selves were run/organized etc. i.e. I didn't know how many laps, sessions, etc. maybe it's posted somewhere but I didn't read it.

2. Scoring / Pip's / Competition? as a newbie: who cares!!!! just let me out there and run!!!

3. Who cares what class you're in as a newbie, even with the best optimized care for the class, you probably wont be competative with the experianced drivers. From worst to best, I picked up more than 6 seconds in one day at shannonville (PRO) and another second the next time out.

4. Just to let you know, I trailer in my 84/86/88 mutt of a Pontiac Fiero only because I can't afford to keep it on the road. I've got some "street" mods done (enough to bump me up to T1 from T3) but none of them do me much good since I'm still on street tires and they modifications don't take full advantage of what you could get out of a "race" modification could.

FROM NEWBIE TO NEWBIE: JUST COME OUT AND HAVE FUN! DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE PIPS, SCORING, MODS AND POLITICS. THEY WILL BE THE LAST THING ON YOUR MIND AS YOU ARE RIPPING DOWN THE STRAIGHT WITH A SMILE FROM EAR TO EAR!!

Excellent comments from a newbie.

The idea in SoloSprint is to learn, enjoy and improve each time out on whatever track we are running. As your level of confidence increases you will then gradually become more competitive. At that time you then decide on how to improve your car's performance.

Performing against the clock is much harder than it sounds. Someone new to the sport definitely needs to attend one of the schools to learn the basics. As his/her seat time increases so will their abilities. As you have indicated, forget about trying to win your class the first season out. Instead a newbie should concentrate on learning, improving and just having fun. The more experienced drivers are more than willing to help you improve.

By the end of the season, all new competitors should be able to look back and say, "That was a lot of fun and my times improved immensely". You might also say, "I wouldn't have believed that I could drive my car that fast and that well". Now we've got you. You will now not believe how long the winter really is!

[Cap'n Pete]

You will now not believe how long the winter really is!
That's what they build snowmobiles for, Chuck! ;) And yes, they handle pretty well too :D.

[pigeon]

Out of curiousity, what is the ideal amount of competitors per event? At what point do we reach max capacity?

[ADAM]

I think anything past 55 is too much..then you cant do any signifiant practice lapping..

[ADAM]

depends on the track size too

[pigeon]

I think anything past 55 is too much..then you cant do any signifiant practice lapping..
I think we're actually pretty close to that at most of the events, roughly 45-50 competitors.

[Slowpoke]

Event 1 DDT: 73
Event 2 DDT: 48
Event 3 SMP Fabi: 52
Event 4 SPM Pro: 32
Event 5 Calabogie: 60
Event 6 TMP: 58
Event 7 TMP: 46
Event 8 SMP Pro: 56
Event 9 SMP Pro: 47
Nationals Day 1: 50
Nationals Day 2: 45

Every single Sunday was less attended than the Saturday. Some of this is natural due to mechanical failures. We all get a lot of track time when <50 people show up, but, there is the financial viability of the series to consider as well... low attendance may necessitate a bump in entry fees. (Which, I understand, may have a detrimental effect on how many then want to register...)

[pigeon]

So on average 51-52 competitors per event. How did the series do this year from a financial perspective?

[jcbarnard]

Where can I find information on event fees/membership costs etc.?

[pigeon]

Where can I find information on event fees/membership costs etc.?
Club membership ranges from approximately $50.00 - $60.00 per year, depending on the club. This is required.

Race License is $60.00 per year. This is required.

Event fee is:
$100.00 per event if you prepay for them at the open house in April.
$110.00 per event if you prepay for them 2 weeks before the event.
$120.00 per event if you pay on the spot. (or maybe $130.00? I can't remember)

Best bet is to prepay at the open house for the ones you're 100% sure you can attend, and the questionable ones prepay 2 weeks before the event. You can do as little or as many events as you want.

[ScotcH]

Where can I find information on event fees/membership costs etc.?

Hmmmm ... good question. This is the kind of stuff that should go in the "getting started" guide!

The events are typically $100 for early registration, $130 for walk-ins. Club membership varies from $40-100, and a class C race license is $60 per year.

[jcbarnard]

Thanks guys, less money than expected actually :)

[Slowpoke]

This page shows the different clubs in CASC-OR and what they're about. (Thttp://www.casc.on.ca/clubs.php) However it doesn't mention what they charge for membership unless you actually get to the point of paying. (You can click on "Join this club" on that page to pay online by credit card.)

Full 2008 SPDA membership is $40, available now, and valid until 12/31/2008. Most GTA clubs are in that $40 - $55 ballpark.

But really, it's not about the price. $15 here or there doesn't make or break your season. Visit the club's forums, meet the people, see who you want to hang out with.

I maintain a second membership with BMW-Trillium because I like the people, their driving schools, social events, and winter Karting series. :)

[thgear]

Hmmmm ... good question. This is the kind of stuff that should go in the "getting started" guide!

The events are typically $100 for early registration, $130 for walk-ins. Club membership varies from $40-100, and a class C race license is $60 per year.

everything but the membership costs are listed on the soloontario website..

[Cap'n Pete]

http://www.soloontario.com/getting_involved.html

That's the page for SoloSprint. It also has links that will send you back here!! :D Should have some of the "administrative" type info you're looking for :cool:.

[ScotcH]

http://www.soloontario.com/getting_involved.html

That's the page for SoloSprint. It also has links that will send you back here!! :D Should have some of the "administrative" type info you're looking for :cool:.

Cool ... didn't even know that page existed. Maybe we need another sticky to point to that page :rolleyes:

[Cap'n Pete]

:D It's got a link off the main CASC home page.

It's great ... you can find all of the past events/results from that site ;).

[ScotcH]

:D It's got a link off the main CASC home page.

It's great ... you can find all of the past events/results from that site ;).

Well I knoe the site is there, and I visit it often ... just not the newb page. maybe 'cause I'm not a newb anymore? :)

[thgear]

i should put a tracker on all the pages.... :)

[pigeon]

serge is lying, he just put that page up right now! :D

[thgear]

serge is lying, he just put that page up right now! :D

SHH!!!!! :cool:

[nowcritical]

I have all the stats for the last 2 years if anyone wants to see them,,

[Chuck91GT]

Cool ... didn't even know that page existed. Maybe we need another sticky to point to that page :rolleyes:


Serge and I implemented that page months and months ago when the new website was constructed. The flyers were all available at the Open House in April and were available on one of the forum treads prior to the Open House. The forms were also available on the CASC-OR site. Serge incorporated all of this into our own SoloSprint website. I think that most people skip these pages and go directly to the forum instead. As soon as any rule changes or new regs are implemented for next year, Serge and I will put together a new "Getting Started" page. Stickies in the forums will also direct the user to the necessary info.

[kmorris]

Serge and I implemented that page months and months ago when the new website was constructed. The flyers were all available at the Open House in April and were available on one of the forum treads prior to the Open House. The forms were also available on the CASC-OR site. Serge incorporated all of this into our own SoloSprint website. I think that most people skip these pages and go directly to the forum instead. As soon as any rule changes or new regs are implemented for next year, Serge and I will put together a new "Getting Started" page. Stickies in the forums will also direct the user to the necessary info.

Here's a list of a few things that should be on the page:

Signing Up
Joining a club
Getting a Class C License
Event Signup and Costs

Preparation
Eligibility
Classifying Your Car
Track facilities
What to Bring

How The Day Runs
Registration
Scrutineering
Driver's Meeting
Practice
Competition

Competition Format
Gridding/Order
Run Groups
Flags
Marshalling

Links to further information - rules, ccdb, forums etc

[thgear]

Signing Up
Joining a club
Getting a Class C License
Event Signup and Costs


http://www.soloontario.com/getting_involved.html
http://www.soloontario.com/registration.html


Preparation
Eligibility
Classifying Your Car
Track facilities
What to Bring


http://www.soloontario.com/2007SoloSprintRegulations.pdf


How The Day Runs
Registration
Scrutineering
Driver's Meeting
Practice
Competition


http://www.soloontario.com/2007SoloSprintRegulations.pdf


Competition Format
Gridding/Order
Run Groups
Flags
Marshalling


http://www.soloontario.com/2007SoloSprintRegulations.pdf


i guess what we really need to do is stress the fact that people should read the rulebook...

[Cap'n Pete]

Rulebook?! We have a rulebook??? :confused:

:D

Bah, who needs rules anyway? :rolleyes:

[nrg3k_civic]

I'm a newb to solo1 as of 2007 (2 events) and will be running as a novice next season. There is a huge part of the build up to joining this series that helped me more than anything else: Joining a good club. For me, since i drive a Civic, HADA was the best option, and has helped me with EVERYTHING. If i didn't have the club support, i'd be completely lost, and unlikely to stay involved.

The most common trend i've found as a newb, is that car class is not entirely valid until you have a dyno plot and race weight assessment. The classification of cars seems to be based on the 'best case' option for any mod, and implies that if you do part of a mod, you get the whole 'penalty' PIP, without actually getting all the benefit. There is no middle ground. This only shows me one thing: to join the series without good preparation, you will not be competitive in your class. My car prepped very close to Wes' Civic, but for whatever reasons (likely the lack of dyno and weight) i was bumped a class up (GT2) for my only events. That wasn't really a big deal, as i was out to have fun, more than to win.

Beyond the classing of cars, I think everything else was really quite simple to get into. With the support of my club, i was able to just show up to events, get help from people who had answers, and follow along with the flow of the other participants. There is NO comparing solo1 to CSCS. CSCS is lapping with a stop-watch. Its not realistic, and there is far less attention to consistency and a level playing field. At least with rules (no matter how daunting they seem at first glance), you know people actually care if you get your chance to compete. With show-n-shine timed lapping (CSCS), you get to parade around a track with other not-so-serious drivers. Its true the 'buzz' is bigger with a show-n-shine event, but the focus is on drag racing, bikinis and lambo doors.

I guess the only thing i can suggest, with regard to Joe's original post, is for newb's to join a club and get help from the club's solo1 racers. It makes life so much easier!

DJM:>

[kmorris]

http://www.soloontario.com/getting_involved.html
http://www.soloontario.com/registration.html



http://www.soloontario.com/2007SoloSprintRegulations.pdf



http://www.soloontario.com/2007SoloSprintRegulations.pdf



http://www.soloontario.com/2007SoloSprintRegulations.pdf


i guess what we really need to do is stress the fact that people should read the rulebook...

All righty then, job done! Brace yourself for the flood of new arrivals.

[thgear]

All righty then, job done! Brace yourself for the flood of new arrivals.

do we really need a flood of people who cant pay attention to detail and excercise a little bit of brain power to read a 40 odd page book?

this is a dangerous sport after all.

i dont want to be spoon feeding anyone, this isnt daycare.

[ScotcH]

do we really need a flood of people who cant pay attention to detail and excercise a little bit of brain power to read a 40 odd page book?

this is a dangerous sport after all.

i dont want to be spoon feeding anyone, this isnt daycare.

Serge for SoloSprint Ambasador :D

[kmorris]

do we really need a flood of people who cant pay attention to detail and excercise a little bit of brain power to read a 40 odd page book?

this is a dangerous sport after all.

i dont want to be spoon feeding anyone, this isnt daycare.

I can't believe that I am dignifying the above with a response, but here goes.:rolleyes:

If a person arrives for their first event, their chances for a good experience will be greatly increased if there are no unexpected roadblocks - car prep issues, forgotten items, organizational things, whatever. If they sign up and arrive at the track, but then have trouble for some easily avoidable reason, it will leave a bad taste and they probably won't be back, rulebook or not.

I agree that it does not require a superhuman intellect or attention span to read the rulebook, but there are many basic questions that it does not answer. It certainly makes no pretense of giving someone who hasn't been out before much of a sense of what the event is like, whether they can handle it, will they enjoy it, etc.

But that's OK. Maybe we should just accept diminishing attendance; we'll all get more track time. For a year or two anyway.

[thgear]

I can't believe that I am dignifying the above with a response, but here goes.:rolleyes:

If a person arrives for their first event, their chances for a good experience will be greatly increased if there are no unexpected roadblocks - car prep issues, forgotten items, organizational things, whatever. If they sign up and arrive at the track, but then have trouble for some easily avoidable reason, it will leave a bad taste and they probably won't be back, rulebook or not.

I agree that it does not require a superhuman intellect or attention span to read the rulebook, but there are many basic questions that it does not answer. It certainly makes no pretense of giving someone who hasn't been out before much of a sense of what the event is like, whether they can handle it, will they enjoy it, etc.

But that's OK. Maybe we should just accept diminishing attendance; we'll all get more track time. For a year or two anyway.

which basic questions does the rulebook not answer?

again, this is motorsport, you could die, this is not playing catch in the backyard (altho that could kill you too)

when i first heard about solosprint, i went to the open house, and the first thing that i was handed was the rule book, and i was briefly explained that i need to join a club and buy a licence.

when i got home that day i read the thing cover to cover to get the jist of it.

then when i showed up to an event anything that i didnt already know was explained by the organizers of the event during the drivers meeting



my personal opinion is that our dwindling attendence has nothing to do with the rule book!

it has to do with the fact that alot of the active competitors are moving into regional racing, and others are moving away in life to other places (take Chris atkins for instance)

and that the biggest hurdle that Solospring has to overcome is MARKETING, people simply DONT KNOW about solosprint! they dont know about CASC-OR they dont even know that we have a bunch of racetracks right here in ontario!

when i tell people i race cars, a couple of times i was asked "so you drive to the states alot to race?" :rolleyes:


advertising should be our concern, not the rule book, the rule book is fine, it explains everything in detail. If someone is still confused about something we have the forum, and a list of phone numbers on the 2nd page of the rule book that anyone can call to ask for a clarification.

if someone is too lazy to do either, i peronsaly dont want them on the track with me.

[Cap'n Pete]

Serge, I think you hit the nail on the head --- perhaps even a couple times? --- in particular about the marketing/exposure issue :cool:. I never heard of SoloSprint, aka "Solo 1" (as it was still, 2 years ago) until a co-worker of mine (Bruce Gray) informed me of a "racing school" at Mosport DDT. "Racing school?!" I said! "You mean, I can take my car on a race track?! :eek:" .....

..... first school was July 11th, 2005, and the rest is history (my car almost was too, but that's another issue! :rolleyes: ) .....

..... BUT, point being, someone had to TELL ME about "SoloSprint". On one hand, maybe it's up to all of us to "spread the word" around, but on the other hand, what does Solo Ontario, or CASC do to advertise/promote this series?? :confused: Do they do anything???? Honestly, I don't know? ..........

..... but like Serge pointed out, once you actually get your foot in the door, the information isn't actually that hard to access. I've found pretty much EVERYONE to be friendly & helpful when I've approached them with questions, even on my first day when it came to being scrutineered:

"...we need to be scrutineered? where's that? who's this Smiley Joe character?? ;)" ......

[sjd]

which basic questions does the rulebook not answer?

again, this is motorsport, you could die, this is not playing catch in the backyard (altho that could kill you too)

when i first heard about solosprint, i went to the open house, and the first thing that i was handed was the rule book, and i was briefly explained that i need to join a club and buy a licence.

when i got home that day i read the thing cover to cover to get the jist of it.

then when i showed up to an event anything that i didnt already know was explained by the organizers of the event during the drivers meeting



my personal opinion is that our dwindling attendence has nothing to do with the rule book!

it has to do with the fact that alot of the active competitors are moving into regional racing, and others are moving away in life to other places (take Chris atkins for instance)

and that the biggest hurdle that Solospring has to overcome is MARKETING, people simply DONT KNOW about solosprint! they dont know about CASC-OR they dont even know that we have a bunch of racetracks right here in ontario!

when i tell people i race cars, a couple of times i was asked "so you drive to the states alot to race?" :rolleyes:


advertising should be our concern, not the rule book, the rule book is fine, it explains everything in detail. If someone is still confused about something we have the forum, and a list of phone numbers on the 2nd page of the rule book that anyone can call to ask for a clarification.

if someone is too lazy to do either, i peronsaly dont want them on the track with me.

As someone who hasn't yet competed in SoloSprint (next year, of course that's what I said last year.:rolleyes: ) I agree with this 100%. I've pored over the rulebook like crazy, looked at previous results and asked questions all in an attempt to get the most out of this sport/hobby. As for the marketing no one I talk to knows what Solosprint is either.

[kmorris]

my personal opinion is that our dwindling attendence has nothing to do with the rule book!

it has to do with the fact that alot of the active competitors are moving into regional racing, and others are moving away in life to other places (take Chris atkins for instance)

and that the biggest hurdle that Solospring has to overcome is MARKETING, people simply DONT KNOW about solosprint! they dont know about CASC-OR they dont even know that we have a bunch of racetracks right here in ontario!

when i tell people i race cars, a couple of times i was asked "so you drive to the states alot to race?" :rolleyes:


advertising should be our concern, not the rule book, the rule book is fine, it explains everything in detail. If someone is still confused about something we have the forum, and a list of phone numbers on the 2nd page of the rule book that anyone can call to ask for a clarification.



Totally agree. However, for what it's worth, the Web site and even these boards to some extent form a part of the marketing effort. That's really all I've been getting at. Not that the boards should be full of PR fluff and political correctness (who's looking for that?) but if we can think of ways to make it more compelling for people to come out and give Solosprint a try, and a better experience when they do (not that it isn't great now) then we should do it.

[nowcritical]

I can't believe that I am dignifying the above with a response, but here goes.:rolleyes:

If a person arrives for their first event, their chances for a good experience will be greatly increased if there are no unexpected roadblocks - car prep issues, forgotten items, organizational things, whatever. If they sign up and arrive at the track, but then have trouble for some easily avoidable reason, it will leave a bad taste and they probably won't be back, rulebook or not.

I agree that it does not require a superhuman intellect or attention span to read the rulebook, but there are many basic questions that it does not answer. It certainly makes no pretense of giving someone who hasn't been out before much of a sense of what the event is like, whether they can handle it, will they enjoy it, etc.

But that's OK. Maybe we should just accept diminishing attendance; we'll all get more track time. For a year or two anyway.

I strongly disagree with this. We host a full fledged solo school at the start of the season. We spend 2 days with all the new comers to the sport to teach them how to drive on the track, talk about car prep, what is involved in getting started and we offer a lots of laps for a very small price. When was the last time you went to a race school where there was an instructor helping you for 2 days at 350! ( the last time I spent 3 days at a racing school it cost me 5000$)
This is a very extensive 2 day driving program and guess what ! Your instructors are no paid one cent! The bring there cars to the track and coach ever single driver all day long, take you for laps and in most cases trust there life in your hands.
Solo also has an open house every spring. feel free to come on out and talk to anyone everyone and we will be more then happy to help and answer any question that you have.

I think the main point is that showing up at an event , will not give you the best sense of the sport is correct. Solo is a competitive sport, you need to take the time and prep for it. Yes you can go go lap with your buddies at any time and have a perception of speed and who the best driver on the track is. However based on the systems that Solo has in place we will make sure that you can compete on a level playing filed, do it safely and learn how to go faster.


Your first event should be the school. You will be surprised on what you learn and what your car can do.


You are more then welcome to contact me if you have questions. I am sure having said this 20 other competitors will step up and do the same thing.

[nowcritical]

As someone who hasn't yet competed in SoloSprint (next year, of course that's what I said last year.:rolleyes: ) I agree with this 100%. I've pored over the rulebook like crazy, looked at previous results and asked questions all in an attempt to get the most out of this sport/hobby. As for the marketing no one I talk to knows what Solosprint is either.

This is a grass root effort based on a word of mouth and really no budget. We spend all the money that sponsors give us to lower the cost of participating.

Your point is valid however we could add and extra 10$ per competitor per event to help out the marketing side of the equation. We have some extreamlie talented marketing individuals in the sport that could spin this into a new campaign. The question is how much would it cost to get our there?

[Rob McAuley]

I read the rule book, and I didn't see where we get bonus pips (pip reductions?) for lambo doors, big subwoofers, built-in PSPs, or the best looking crew.

Want to grow the sport? Promote to a wider audience!

How many pips for chopped springs?

[Rob McAuley]

Seriously, I did a year of HPDEs, and was looking for something more structured than checking off the cars that I passed in a session.

I heard about Solo, and came out to the May school. Learned that I would need R compound tires and racing brake pads to be competitive, and to expect to get my a$$ handed to me my first season running my completely stock car.

As luck would have it, I ended up winning my class. The key was running all events. The others didn't, and I had more results to pick from.

To get the best results, hook up with someone with a similar car, and talk to them about what mods work best for that model. There are many, many people who love to help out ('cause we got help when we first started).

[glh]

When I first came out to SOLO1 I did't care about rules I just wanted to compete that was fine I had a great time met real good people put as I started to want more and get more compedtive I found that may street mods don't work at the track put I still had to take the pips

I see this as a problem but have no idea how to fix it you either have to build your car to race spec or leave it stock

So now that I have it to race spec I may as well race it which I did
Many times I thought I should bring it out for a solo day but it never happened for no other reason than time

I have said it before I think you guys have too many rules and that is because you are trying to level the playing field but if you have 15 classes and only 50 entries you have too many classes

Steve

[thgear]

I have said it before I think you guys have too many rules and that is because you are trying to level the playing field but if you have 15 classes and only 50 entries you have too many classes

Steve

whats your solution then?

[glh]

whats your solution then?

like I said in my post I dont have 1 but you guys have to make it easier for new people to come out Cost is not the problem
other venues are growing and by what Im reading yours is not
there has to be something done with tires for a new comer to compete if a guy shows up at the drag strip and knows he has to race against a slick tire with his street tire he wont do it

that is just 1 problem I heard all kinds of things this year this is wrong that is no good this no good at the CTCC but that car had 50+ cars every race so some how they got the message across that was the place to be now we will see what happens next year
1 Idea would be to lessen the number of classes for the track preped cars and open up some street tire classes
but now you will piss off all the regs to bring in the new guy so you never win
1 thing is for sure your going to piss someone off and maybe it needs to be someone you haven t yet because if you only get 40 cars out next year if going to hurt someones pocket
just some thoughts
Steve

[glh]

This is a grass root effort based on a word of mouth and really no budget. We spend all the money that sponsors give us to lower the cost of participating.

Your point is valid however we could add and extra 10$ per competitor per event to help out the marketing side of the equation. We have some extreamlie talented marketing individuals in the sport that could spin this into a new campaign. The question is how much would it cost to get our there?

this is a good start

[thgear]

like I said in my post I dont have 1 but you guys have to make it easier for new people to come out Cost is not the problem
other venues are growing and by what Im reading yours is not
there has to be something done with tires for a new comer to compete if a guy shows up at the drag strip and knows he has to race against a slick tire with his street tire he wont do it

that is just 1 problem I heard all kinds of things this year this is wrong that is no good this no good at the CTCC but that car had 50+ cars every race so some how they got the message across that was the place to be now we will see what happens next year
1 Idea would be to lessen the number of classes for the track preped cars and open up some street tire classes
but now you will piss off all the regs to bring in the new guy so you never win
1 thing is for sure your going to piss someone off and maybe it needs to be someone you haven t yet because if you only get 40 cars out next year if going to hurt someones pocket
just some thoughts
Steve

there is nothing wrong with the number of classes that we have, you try to take every single production car in north america and put them all into a big pile and have EVERYONE be competetive!

you want us to cut down on classes? please develop a mathematical system of classing the cars and present it to everyone, the meeting is in 1.5 hours over in markham, hope to see you there.

[glh]

there is nothing wrong with the number of classes that we have, you try to take every single production car in north america and put them all into a big pile and have EVERYONE be competetive!

you want us to cut down on classes? please develop a mathematical system of classing the cars and present it to everyone, the meeting is in 1.5 hours over in markham, hope to see you there.

sorry I wont be I was giving my opinion from past experence Ill be back in the CTCC again next year

good luck you have a good place to get involved with racing I hope you figure it out

Steve