2008 SCCA PAX/RTP Index

[J.C.]

Interesting to note that GS is now paxed higher than DS.

http://scca-chicago.com/solo/indexes/rtp2008.html

[Marsh]

"No, we're not going to move the Mini, which is so obviously a DS car. We're just going to completely screw all the other GS cars".

And people wonder why I don't want to use their rule book...

ES got seperated further from HS, but was increased less than all the other stock classes. CS just got outright hosed. So that's the last nail in the 'trading up to a second gen miata' idea.

[bbqman]

"No, we're not going to move the Mini, which is so obviously a DS car. We're just going to completely screw all the other GS cars".

And people wonder why I don't want to use their rule book...

ES got seperated further from HS, but was increased less than all the other stock classes. CS just got outright hosed. So that's the last nail in the 'trading up to a second gen miata' idea.

You know Marsh, the Pax has nothing to do with SCCA rules. People just use this gauge to compare withing classes.
A region can adopt SCCA rules and not use Pax at all.

[Marsh]

You know Marsh, the Pax has nothing to do with SCCA rules. People just use this gauge to compare withing classes.
A region can adopt SCCA rules and not use Pax at all.

And then what? We give the overall trophy to the person with the biggest smile???

Besides the primary point is that the classes in SCCA are virtually meaningless. Instead of shuffling the cars they are adjusting the PAX factors. They've actually generated their own written proof of how retarded they're classing decisions are. If a car in GS proves to be faster than DS, then wouldn't you move it to DS. NO! The SCCA simply declares GS the faster class and moves NOTHING!

BTW Canadian national pax factors are lifted from SCCA, so these are the paxes for our nats.

[miataboi]

And then what? We give the overall trophy to the person with the biggest smile???

Besides the primary point is that the classes in SCCA are virtually meaningless. Instead of shuffling the cars they are adjusting the PAX factors. They've actually generated their own written proof of how retarded they're classing decisions are. If a car in GS proves to be faster than DS, then wouldn't you move it to DS. NO! The SCCA simply declares GS the faster class and moves NOTHING!

BTW Canadian national pax factors are lifted from SCCA, so these are the paxes for our nats.

PAX has nothing to do with SCCA....
Why not the biggest smile??? It's about as legit a measure as the guy with the closest backup times?!?!?:confused: :rolleyes:

[Pete@Marcor]

"No, we're not going to move the Mini, which is so obviously a DS car. We're just going to completely screw all the other GS cars".

So, if a Mini Cooper S, which I lobbied to move to DS before I bought one, is not as fast as a DS car, why is the PAX now tougher?

It is like the SEB in the SCCA wanted to shut up the people who were whining about not moving the MCS said "Fine, we are not gonna move you, but now your PAX is tougher."

The thing is, I assume that PAX is not a huge factor in the US anymore, except in Pro Solo. There is enough population in each of the classes that there is no need to compare across classes at a National level.

Would you agree Carl?

I still see that there is a need to rate everyone relative to each other. This requires the use of PAX in an event with relatively few competitors. (Less than 150)

ES got seperated further from HS, but was increased less than all the other stock classes.

Actually, GS got the worst hit for the PAX move.

[bbqman]

Uhmmmm , my point is that Scca rules are derived and written by the SCCA, whereas the RTP Pax is system developed and maintained by an individual called Rick Ruth. He has NO official ties to SCCA car classification and does not pretend to.

The fact that Ricks system shows GS to be a stonger class than DS has nothing at all to do with the SCCA deciding to keep the MINIS in GS or whatever.

The SCCA car classification and rule set still remains the most consistant and fair ruleset out there.
What a club or region decides to do to crown champions, has very little to do with how SCCA determines classes or car classification.

Remember, SCCA writes rules, Rick Ruth writes PAX. SCCA is not Rick Ruth.

[Pete@Marcor]

Does the SCCA use the Rick Ruth numbers at any time?

[bbqman]

Not officially.

At national tours and the nationals, each class has its winners.

[Pete@Marcor]

Not officially.

At national tours and the nationals, each class has its winners.

Interesting. Kind of what I thought, but I wonder how he achieves his numbers.

[JT_TT_DS]

Besides the primary point is that the classes in SCCA are virtually meaningless. Instead of shuffling the cars they are adjusting the PAX factors. They've actually generated their own written proof of how retarded they're classing decisions are. If a car in GS proves to be faster than DS, then wouldn't you move it to DS. NO! The SCCA simply declares GS the faster class and moves NOTHING!

i personally believe (and this was just backed up by a post from andy hollis) that they don't really want to move the cars, but are looking more to make DS faster over the next couple years. with the new BMW 1-series coming out, and the new TT not classed i think they are going to slowly try to make DS faster as new cars come out. it's not unreasonable to leave the Mini's in GS they already have a home there and they have a large following that you don't want to piss off too much in fear of losing the members. yea there are lots of other cars that end up in GS that have no chance, but lots of classes are spec classes these days. this year they hoped that the MS3 was going to speed up DS and even the new WRX with the 2.5l motor, it didn't happen and the ITR still stood as the fastest car out there when wheeled by Bartek. Rick Ruth also took into account that Bartek is leaving DS and that nobody else even came to close to what he was doing so there's little threat that the car is going to clean up any more. Now it's going to be an Audi TT on top...

either way the SCCA classing system is by far the best and most complete out there, and it's easy to follow and nobody in your club has to maintain it. the pax is done by rick ruth and he puts alot of time and energy into it and for the most part it's pretty close compared to anything i would do. however using canadian classes and modifying SCCA style pax is MEESSSSSSED. but running no pax makes it no fun for the person that doesn't have a dedicated race car.

i'm looking forward to seeing what cars make it into DS to find my next car.

[Marsh]

i personally believe (and this was just backed up by a post from andy hollis) that they don't really want to move the cars, but are looking more to make DS faster over the next couple years...

WHAT?

So the argument is that they're going to change the class in the future, so they won't bother moving any cars now? BS! The reason is that there are enough mini drivers that don't want to race against ITRs and enough ITR drivers that don't want to race against mini's that all the other GS cars are getting screwed over. Do you honestly think that if they make DS faster that the ITR will get moved down? More than likely it will become another "abandon car". Cars that are left in their old classes despite a drastic change in the performance of the class.

Besides it's a rather bold assumption to plan on said cars really being faster.

[gatherer]

I love a good Rules debate. :p

anyways from 2001 to 2004 CAC did exactly what the SCCA did and never had an Overall winner declared, in the National Competition. Everyone that won their class got to use the title of "national champion" (according to the rule book from 2003 that I happen to still have on my desk at work here)

personally I think overall win isn't as meaningful as class win. since it's either based on Backup times as a percentage of your winning time or it's based on Pax. the first one rewards consistancy and really helps if your class is under filled, and the second is just a mathematical calculation based on a number that takes a long time to come up with but doesn't nessecarily reflect a true comparasion between classes, either way beating the guy, or being beaten by the guy whose car is in the same class as me is way more meaningful.

[Marsh]

personally I think overall win isn't as meaningful as class win. since it's either based on Backup times as a percentage of your winning time or it's based on Pax. the first one rewards consistancy and really helps if your class is under filled, and the second is just a mathematical calculation based on a number that takes a long time to come up with but doesn't nessecarily reflect a true comparasion between classes, either way beating the guy, or being beaten by the guy whose car is in the same class as me is way more meaningful.

Then why do you even care? The overall winner is still the class winner for his or her class. But to some of us another class plaque to through on the pile isn't all that meaningfull. We want to compete amongst each other. If you don't care about overall wins then why do you care about how we decide it.

This is the part I never get about these arguments. All the people that hate whatever system is being used to determine overall want to just switch to the SCCA system where there is no overall. If you don't give a damn about overall, THEN STAY OUT OF THE ARGUMENT!

Honestly what is the point of me even going to provincials to win a class that's empty. I could literally push my car through the course and get a trophy. That has more meaning to you than beating the other class winners by what ever system the whiners find least objectionable that year? Good lord why?

I have stated before on this board (in another discussion): "They don't give out trophies for being good. They give out trophies for being better." So ask your self this. Better than who?

[JT_TT_DS]

ok, now seriously, why was the proposal taken off the table? What decisions were made or not made and why?

Obviously lack of action to do anything with the classes, including the JCW, is actually doing something by keeping them in GS/BS, so I wanna know why?

We've all been discussing Rick's PAX decision with GS/DS and he's given reasons for why he's done what he's done....so why can't the SEB do the same and explain why they decided to keep the MINI in GS? What's it based on?

d



I'll take a stab.

And as always, this is my personal view of the matter, and is not official, nor complete. Nor is it an opening to debate the issue with the rulesmakers. Just some rationale because it was asked.

1) This proposal went out early in the year, right at the deadline for next-year actions, based on early event results where it appeared that the new car was possibly a LOT faster than the old. You can thank your eventual National Champ for some of that. Because of the deadline, the proposal had to go out just to put it on the table. In the end, it was deemed that this early hysteria was premature. Later data proved that it was very much a course and surface dependency and that any improvement was relatively small.

The above was probably 80% of the decision.

2) There was some concern of what GS would backfill with, and how long it would take. Certainly the Spec-V was a bit of a concern as there isn't exactly a huge installed based of these within our membership and they are no longer being made. Would the Civic Si do the job? VW? This was not a dealbreaker, but was a concern.

3) DS is a problem-child right now. It needs to get faster to fit into the scheme of things. And it needs more participation. ITRs are not going to keep it afloat. On concrete, the diff-less BMW's could compete but not on asphalt. So we lost many of those folks. And the ITRs keep disappearing both from being old and from being stolen. Expect some new cars to get classed in DS over the next couple of years that will make it faster than it is now. If the Mini was already there, the Mini would get stomped by these new dogs. So consider this prepping the field for some new entries.

That's how I remember it. I'm sure there's more, though.

--Andy




I'm sure there will me lots of cars that can fill up DS over the next little while. with the hot hatch thing rising in north america think of the bmw 1 series, maybe the S30, the cars will come that will make the class faster, it always does. people complained about GS being too slow, then they got the mini, they complained about FS being slow, then they got the Shelby. so just gotta wait it out, instead of making quick fixes that won't fix much of anything. DS and GS had great attendances at nationals so why would they want to combine that and mess things up (DS has a low regional and tour entrance but nationals it's always strong)

[Travis]

Interesting discussion regarding the PAX differences between DS and GS:
http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthread.php?t=526721


I find the entire situation laughable. Take into consideration the facts.
1) MCS should have been DS from the moment it got an LSD in 2005.
2) The -ONLY- car that anyone -EVER- talks about having a chance to beat the MCS is the Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec-V..... which USED to be in DS, before it got moved "down".

As a thought experiment, let's exclude the two should-be-DS cars.
We've got....
RSX-S & new Civic Si are supposed to be faster than a Type-R
2001 Neon R/T w/ 150 hp is supposed to be faster than the 230hp / 250tq 2005 SRT4 ACR
Chevy Cobalt SS N/A model is supposed to be faster than the Supercharged model.
Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS (n/a) is supposed to be faster than the WRX (2.5 turbo)
2006 VW GTI (2.0l turbo, 200hp/207tq, 3300lbs, 3-door hatchback) is supposed to be faster than the MazdaSpeed3 (2.3l turbo, 268hp/280tq, 3180lbs, 5-door hatchback)

The list goes on and on and on and on.....

Sure, it's sad and unfair to the RSX. Kinda like putting the ITR in DSP and the RSX in CSP. But what's more sad and unfair is how transparently mis-classed the MCS and Sentra are. It's sad and unfair to EVERY OTHER CAR IN GS, which were classed with the idea in mind that GS is slower than DS.

It's sad because it shows, simply and easily, how ****ed up the SCCA is.

I mean, seriously, what the ****. You can run "up" classes if you want. You can run your Mini Cooper non-S in Super-Stock, if you want. So what happens when all the DS drivers are coming to GS? It's bullshit.

-Dan!!

"It's bullshit." Not much more to say about it.