Race Fuel Poll

[Chuck91GT]

I need to know asap if any SoloSprint competitor uses leaded fuel.

[Slowpoke]

If you ARE using leaded race fuel but don't NEED the lead, Ontario Competition Fuels in Streetsville (Mississauga) near 401 / Erin Mills Parkway exit has up to 114 octane unleaded.

Last year the 110 octane (Mark 2) was $3.05 per litre (yes you can bring jerry cans) and the 114 octane (Mark 5) was $3.78 a litre.

http://www.proracingfuels.com/index.html

I've been advised not to use the 114 in an engine not specifically built for high octane, but I honestly ran it last year mixed with Sunoco 94 without a problem.

[Cap'n Pete]

This must be in response to the recent decision by the gov't to ban all use of leaded fuels in motorsports in Canada .......... except where it's used in aviation. Apparently the consumption is something like ~98% aviation, ~2% motorsports, but motorsports are being targeted :rolleyes:.

From what I heard, this could put a BIG, BIG dent in competitive drag racing this side of the border.

[dubya_rx]

http://canadagazette.gc.ca/partI/2007/20071222/html/regle1-e.html

[Slowpoke]

NASCAR races have had leaded fuel up until 2007? Ah! That explains things with their fanbase... ;) :D

In addition to banning smoking in cars that have children, perhaps children should not be allowed to attend drag race and stock car races where they use leaded fuel? That would drop the ticket sales and push them into using non-leaded fuels.

Racers will continue to use anything that gives them a performance benefit until you finally ban it from the rules. Then they'll set up committees to postpone the rule implementation. Then they'll have lawyers go over the wording of the rule for loopholes. Then they'll find ways to keep using it but fool the tests...

If racers and racetracks haven't seen the writing on the wall for decades and don't have a backup plan in place ... perhaps it's due to the extended exposure to leaded exhaust gases at the track...?

Flame on.

[MazdaMatt]

So they want to kill potentially millions of dollars of revenue, and potentially kill some tracks, because of 1.5% of leaded gasoline imported to Canada. Tests were done 11 years ago that concluded that it was safe, but because the standards of 'safe' have changed it is "inferred" that today's consumption is now unsafe.

I am interested in what percent of leaded gasoline BURNED in this country is in motorsports. I'm sure that a TINY fraction of what is burned in this country is imported. That is to say, how many jets (which consume 98.5% of imported fuels) are fueled out of country? If we are okay with every community in north america being showered with lead from airplanes, why is our motorsports industry the target?

That article also claimed that "some vehicles" emit lead vapours... I wonder if it is safe to say that 11 years of engine technology have reduced the actual output.

I think that before squishing the Canadian drag racing industry it might be wise to at least TEST to see if it is a problem.

[MazdaMatt]

On another note... I'm all for the gov't banning it if they are willing to pay the cost to replace it with ethanol fuels. (yeah right)

[Chuck91GT]

NASCAR races have had leaded fuel up until 2007? Ah! That explains things with their fanbase... ;) :D

In addition to banning smoking in cars that have children, perhaps children should not be allowed to attend drag race and stock car races where they use leaded fuel? That would drop the ticket sales and push them into using non-leaded fuels.

Racers will continue to use anything that gives them a performance benefit until you finally ban it from the rules. Then they'll set up committees to postpone the rule implementation. Then they'll have lawyers go over the wording of the rule for loopholes. Then they'll find ways to keep using it but fool the tests...

If racers and racetracks haven't seen the writing on the wall for decades and don't have a backup plan in place ... perhaps it's due to the extended exposure to leaded exhaust gases at the track...?

Flame on.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Nascar went to unleaded fuel 2 years ago.

[MazdaMatt]

Wait a tick... what is the lead for? to prevent knocking? So you could simply reduce compression and go unleaded? Don't the drag guys rebuild their engines every half mile? Couldn't they just switch over and run mildly slower times if they were all forced to do so?

[ADAM]

hmmm whats worse the lead or Benzene in the unleaded race fuel ?

[Slowpoke]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Nascar went to unleaded fuel 2 years ago.


The National Association for Stock Car Auto Racing (NASCAR) fully converted to unleaded from leaded gasoline at the beginning of the 2007 racing season.

By "fully" converted, perhaps the Nextel cup was already unleaded before 2006, but maybe not some of the minor regional series that fall under Nascar.

[JoeT]

Wait a tick... what is the lead for? to prevent knocking? So you could simply reduce compression and go unleaded? Don't the drag guys rebuild their engines every half mile? Couldn't they just switch over and run mildly slower times if they were all forced to do so?

Lead was used for stabilizing fuel (aka Knock prevention) and valve seat protection (side effect).

Lead
The mixture known as gasoline, when used in high compression internal combustion engines, has a tendency to ignite early (pre-ignition or detonation) causing a damaging "engine knocking" (also called "pinging" or "pinking") noise. Early research into this effect was led by A.H. Gibson and Harry Ricardo in England and Thomas Midgley and Thomas Boyd in the United States. The discovery that lead additives modified this behavior led to the widespread adoption of the practice in the 1920s and therefore more powerful higher compression engines. The most popular additive was tetra-ethyl lead. However, with the discovery of the environmental and health damage caused by the lead, and the incompatibility of lead with catalytic converters found on virtually all newly sold US automobiles since 1975, this practice began to wane (encouraged by many governments introducing differential tax rates) in the 1980s. Most countries are phasing out leaded fuel; different additives have replaced the lead compounds. The most popular additives include aromatic hydrocarbons, ethers and alcohol (usually ethanol or methanol).

In the U.S., where lead was blended with gasoline (primarily to boost octane levels) since the early 1920s, standards to phase out leaded gasoline were first implemented in 1973. In 1995, leaded fuel accounted for only 0.6 % of total gasoline sales and less than 2,000 tons of lead per year. From January 1, 1996, the Clean Air Act banned the sale of leaded fuel for use in on-road vehicles. Possession and use of leaded gasoline in a regular on-road vehicle now carries a maximum $10,000 fine in the United States. However, fuel containing lead may continue to be sold for off-road uses, including aircraft, racing cars, farm equipment, and marine engines [8]. The ban on leaded gasoline led to thousands of tons of lead not being released in the air by automobiles. Similar bans in other countries have resulted in lowering levels of lead in people's bloodstreams.[9] [10].

A side effect of the lead additives was protection of the valve seats from erosion. Many classic cars' engines have needed modification to use lead-free fuels since leaded fuels became unavailable. However, "Lead substitute" products are also produced and can sometimes be found at auto parts stores.

Gasoline, as delivered at the pump, also contains additives to reduce internal engine carbon buildups, improve combustion, and to allow easier starting in cold climates.

In some parts of South America, Asia, Europe and the Middle East, leaded gasoline is still in use. Leaded gasoline was phased out in sub-Saharan Africa with effect from 1 January 2006. A growing number of countries have drawn up plans to ban leaded gasoline in the near future.

[h-bomb]

I am interested in what percent of leaded gasoline BURNED in this country is in motorsports. I'm sure that a TINY fraction of what is burned in this country is imported.

In 2006, 1.34 million litres of leaded gasoline were imported into Canada for use in competition vehicles (leaded gasoline is not manufactured in Canada for competition vehicle use). This volume represents just 1.5% of Canadian leaded gasoline use (the remaining volume is used under a permanent exemption provided to aviation), and 0.003% of all gasoline (including unleaded) produced in, or imported into, Canada.

[MazdaMatt]

In 2006, 1.34 million litres of leaded gasoline were imported into Canada for use in competition vehicles (leaded gasoline is not manufactured in Canada for competition vehicle use). This volume represents just 1.5% of Canadian leaded gasoline use (the remaining volume is used under a permanent exemption provided to aviation), and 0.003% of all gasoline (including unleaded) produced in, or imported into, Canada.

Hanif, I read that article; I don't think that customs checks to see how much fuel is onboard every passenger airline flight that enters the country. What i'm implying is that the amount of fuel consumed within our borders is MUCH greater than the amount of fuel imported... Unless i'm misreading.

I wonder why the aero industry can't (won't) stop using it... maybe because of their 60 year old planes.

[malcolm]

This is BS. It should be banned in both.

Rule changes screw over competitors all the time, usually for the betterment of the series overall. This time, both the series and the competitors should take a small hit and build different motors for different fuels. As someone else pointed out, they rebuild their motors every run or two anyway, so the cost would just be in a day's worth of parts to test to see what survives the 1/4 mile and what makes power. They have to rebuild the motors anyway, just rebuild them with different parts and try different fuels.

Aviation should also be fall under the ban. If racers can adapt with minimal effects (see Nascar, road racing, etc, etc), then aviation people can too. So swap in a new engine or get it rebuilt to withstand the new fuels.

It's not the end of their world, but it'll make the real world better if over a million litres of leaded fuel *wasn't* burned.

[Steven Scala]

Personally, I've got to agree with Malcolm. The motorsports industry in this country can't afford to be seen as an opponent to environmental policy.

[Bubblecar]

This is an important issue that should be discussed - but I do not think the use of leaded fuel is widespread in grassroots or even semi-pro road racing.

I can't think of anyone that I know (exempting pro-class drag racers) that run leaded fuel. I would be curious what use is made by the one person who answered yes to the poll question - or was that a mistake?

[David Evans]

You were correct Nick My Yes vote was a mistake.

[Bubblecar]

Thanks for the clarification - I made the same mistake myself originally, thinking that the 110 race gas that I run in the Viper was leaded.

[Chuck91GT]

There is still one person, not David, who uses leaded fuel in SoloSprint. When the ban comes he will simply change the valving in his car and then he is good to go with unleaded fuel.

Now what about those outboard motors that spew out litres of oil into our lakes, rivers and the air we breathe. It would appear that there is no legislation pertaining to the boating industry. Snowmobiles are now under gov't control but not boats.

Of course, approximately 97% of leaded fuel is used by aircraft so maybe this is a moot point.

[h-bomb]

Hanif, I read that article; I don't think that customs checks to see how much fuel is onboard every passenger airline flight that enters the country. What i'm implying is that the amount of fuel consumed within our borders is MUCH greater than the amount of fuel imported... Unless i'm misreading.

I wonder why the aero industry can't (won't) stop using it... maybe because of their 60 year old planes.

Leaded aviation fuel (avgas) would be used in piston engine powered aircraft. I'd argue there are very few (mostly from the states) piston powered aircraft coming into Canada from very far away :) So most of the fuel would be consumed by local flights from local airports.

[MazdaMatt]

Thank Hanif. I didn't know that jets used something altogether different. I suppose that I should have realized that Jets would be using >50x the fuel of the motorsports industry.

[ADAM]

remember the North is kept going by old piston planes ...there are tons of them...

[ADAM]

jets use kerosene

[RichardC]

The HVAC industry never suffered from the ban on refrigerant 12, in fact they had a replacement before the govt even mentioned banning it. The play went down in perfect form, "we need time- costs will go up"ect ect...

As for cars, my hot water heater produces more cfc's than my car. The Toyota Prius is worse for the environment than the Hummer (birth to boneyard) and burning 1 cord of wood will produce more cfc's than 10 2007 model year SUVs. So yes, IMO the Govt focusing in on the auto industry is just going after the popular vote IMO.

[h-bomb]

The HVAC industry never suffered from the ban on refrigerant 12, in fact they had a replacement before the govt even mentioned banning it. The play went down in perfect form, "we need time- costs will go up"ect ect...

As for cars, my hot water heater produces more cfc's than my car. The Toyota Prius is worse for the environment than the Hummer (birth to boneyard) and burning 1 cord of wood will produce more cfc's than 10 2007 model year SUVs. So yes, IMO the Govt focusing in on the auto industry is just going after the popular vote IMO.

Can you provide proof of the points you've made here? I'm puzzled by a couple of them...

[ADAM]

UMMMM dont get me started on the wood... :)

its carbon Nuetral... in our time frame anyway


however..the whole fuel efficiency issue is bull... its should be a discussion on how much the vehicle is USED(how much fuel YOU use)..not what milage it gets....

my 6.6 litre turbo diesel gets better fuel consumtion than a SMArt car that is commuting for the very fact ..i only drive a few clicks a day..in fact my fuel can last me over 1 month usually...

what needs to be done instead of all this fuel efficiency...is tax the fuel...so that consumption is dealt with...as thats the issue...


a ferrari sitting in the garage does not use any fuel...vs a yaris daily driver.

we have to change social patterns...patterns of work/commuting...thats whats nuts...

taxing fuel VERY heavily will solve this....and solve alot of other issues like urban sprawl...

IMO fuel should cost $7-12 per litre.... at that level it would start to alter our society..and its commuter behavior/urban sprawl...of course slowly ramp the costs up year after year..to allow a slow transformation..

IMO

[Transamdriver]

Adam, you are a dreamer - "we should all live only a few kms from work" - not going to happen. Have you checked the price of overpriced condos in Vancouver and Toronto? or for that matter single family dwellings.

You may not like urban sprawl, but it is good for the economy. Besides, wasn't it everyone's dream to have a small house with a picket fence and a garage (for the race car). It sure was in "my day".

Like it or lump it, the auto/truck/ transportation business is what keeps the wheels of commerce turning. If you stop to think about it, most of our economy is dependant or related to, directly or indirectly, the transportation industry. That's what puts a paycheque in most of our pockets.

I have to shake my head at all the education factory know-it-alls and the enviro nuts who think their paycheque just automatically falls from the sky every 2 weeks - if they had their way we would all be riding a bicycle to what jobs?

Sure it's nice to be able to take transit to work, if possible, but it doesn't work for most of us - would take twice as long to get there - at least here in the metro Vancouver area, where they stuck their heads in the sand years ago and decided not to build a decent road system. It is the worst road system in North America - a joke.

$7-$12 a litre? Easy for you to say - would cause economic chaos everywhere - it's bad enough at $1 plus now.

Robert Barg

[RichardC]

I went to school for HVAC, never got into the industry. From memory (which will be really bad) R12 was known to contain cfc's by the industry and a replacement (can't remember the #) was being manufactured. The govt gave the industry 10 years to phase out R12 which is still used and has quite a large black market as the replacement is more expencive. The leading producers, including Freon and Generation were expecting the crunch on R12 like any good buisness would.

The Toyota Prius's problems are the huge developmrnt costs but mostly the battery. The nickel is mined in north america shipped to (I think Korea) to be made into nicklel foam, then again to the manufacturing plant ect... Bassicaly the nickel goes on a 10,000 mile journey before it gets into a car. Then the cost of disposing the nickel is another problem. Also the life of a Prius is expected to be 100,000 km whyle the Hummer's life is expected to be 300,000 based on part life, replacement part availability and general cost of maintnance being greater than the worth of the vehicle.

As for the wood, it is simply a matter of combustion. The heat generated by burinig wood is not great enough to burn completely, producing by products. Burning trees have a habit of releasing the pollution they have absorbed over their life. They do a great job of cleaning the air 'till you set them on fire. The only by product of complete combustion is water vapour and carbon, very clean, very difficult. Toyota did produce an engine (I never heard if it actually ever made it into a car) that when they tested the emissions found the exhaust was actually cleaner than the ambient air.

World of Wheels did a big article a few issues back after Schwarzenegger was here for the green summit.

[John Powell]

Bob, I basically agree with you, but there is another downside to urban sprawl. The vast majority of the best farmland in the country is along the St Lawrence Valley from Quebec to Cornwall, Southern Ontario (mainly in the south central and south western areas), and Southern BC (mainly the lower mainland and the Okanagan), and it's being gobbled up by urban sprawl at a potentially disastrous rate. We seem to think that because Canada is so large that we have lots of farmland, but we don't. Only about 10% of our land area is fit for agriculture, and most of the prime land (class 1 to class 3) is in the areas threatened by urban sprawl, the rest is only suitable for grazing and grain, and the grain areas are subject to often lengthy periods of drought. At the rate we're going, in about 100 years we won't be able to feed ourselves anymore, even if the current low farm incomes improve to the point where the next and following generations of farmers will be able to stay on the land. So if we don't curb urban sprawl very soon, we are going to have to depend on imported food, which history as shown is a fool's game.

[timewarp9]

I believe the 110 - 112 octane I use is leaded so I voted yes.

Modern cars do not depend on leaded fuels, but many of the vintage race cars do.

If all it takes is a simple valve seat change then no biggie I will get that done. However lead also is an anti-knock component.

My question is does the octane rating control "pinging" or do you need some sort of anti-knock additive?

Jon

[Slowpoke]

Just looking at the profiles of two of the three members that answered "yes" to lead fuel seems to indicate that they are racers, not regular Solosprint competitors.

I notice there's also no parallel poll in the road race forum. So I guess this poll is more curiousity at this point, Chuck?

Jon: The "Octane" number is a measurement of a fuel's overall resistance to preignition or "knock" or "pinging". So the simple answer to the Octane question is that the octane number is all you need. However, the answer is NOT necessarily simple at all. A deeper explanation of octane than is possible in a message forum are in the following documents. The majority of the "Octane" answers start at part 3. There's also special discussion on lead and valve seats in older engines.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part2/
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part3/
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part4/

There's a test on Monday. Better study! ;)

[Chuck91GT]

Just looking at the profiles of two of the three members that answered "yes" to lead fuel seems to indicate that they are racers, not regular Solosprint competitors.

I notice there's also no parallel poll in the road race forum. So I guess this poll is more curiousity at this point, Chuck?

Jon: The "Octane" number is a measurement of a fuel's overall resistance to preignition or "knock" or "pinging". So the simple answer to the Octane question is that the octane number is all you need. However, the answer is NOT necessarily simple at all. A deeper explanation of octane than is possible in a message forum are in the following documents. The majority of the "Octane" answers start at part 3. There's also special discussion on lead and valve seats in older engines.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part2/
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part3/
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part4/

There's a test on Monday. Better study! ;)

My intention was to see if this new ruling would have any impact on the SoloSprint Community.

[Eric H]

The Toyota Prius's problems are the huge developmrnt costs but mostly the battery. The nickel is mined in north america shipped to (I think Korea) to be made into nicklel foam, then again to the manufacturing plant ect... Bassicaly the nickel goes on a 10,000 mile journey before it gets into a car. Then the cost of disposing the nickel is another problem. Also the life of a Prius is expected to be 100,000 km whyle the Hummer's life is expected to be 300,000 based on part life, replacement part availability and general cost of maintnance being greater than the worth of the vehicle.

OK, Prius is'nt cheap... still interested to hear how it has a higher environmental impact?

[G-ForceJunkie]

I can't say exactly what Richard was referring to, but I've seen this link thrown around quite a bit - http://clubs.ccsu.edu/Recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188

and here's a rebuttle,
http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Green_Car_News/Prius_Versus_HUMMER_Exploding_the_Myth.S196.A12220.html?pg=1

[malcolm]

My attempt to put it in layman's terms:

The octane rating is just a rating of knock resistance compared to pure octane mixed with heptane (octane is a molecule with 8 carbon atoms and 18 hydrogen atoms, with the carbons linked in a chain... heptane has 7 carbons, similar to methane [1 carbon], butane [4], pentane [5], propane [3] etc).

Pure octane would have a rating of 100. Half octane and half heptane would have a rating of 50. Sunoco's Super-94 is equivalent to 94% octane and 6% heptane; however, it likely has something like 10% ethanol, 70% octane, 10% heptane, and 10% other additives and stuff.

Any fuel, no matter what it has in it, has an octane rating as it is just a comparison. However, the data's trendline can be extended beyond 100. Methanol has an "octane" of 113, even though there is no octane in it. It's just the theoretical equivalent of 113% octane. ;)

Therefore, to answer Jon, the lead does help with knock-resistance. However, you can find other fuels that are just as knock-resistant, but you'll need to make sure your new valves can live without the lead.


more reading in more detail with more chemistry: :eek:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating

[kwlsti]

what about e85?? or self mixed E85?

[malcolm]

what about e85?? or self mixed E85?

what about it...? :confused:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

that answer anything?

[uptownguy]

What are the differences in an FFV compared to a regular gasoline-only model? Are different parts used?
There is only one major additional part that is included on an FFV—the fuel sensor that detects the ethanol/gasoline ratio. A number of other parts on the FFV’s fuel delivery system are modified so that they are ethanol compatible. The fuel tank, fuel lines, fuel injectors, computer system, anti-siphon device and dashboard gauges have been modified slightly. Alcohols are corrosive. Therefore, any part that comes in contact with the fuel has been upgraded to be tolerant to alcohol. Normally, these parts include a stainless steel fuel tank and Teflon lined fuel hoses.

Peter Austin
Montreal

[kwlsti]

haha
yes i know all of that...:p
but can we use it in Solo Sprints.:confused:

[Slowpoke]

but can we use it in Solo Sprints.:confused:

Yes.

1.5.4 Use only hydrocarbon based gasoline or diesel fuel, including biodiesel, fuel
containing ethanol, or any additives (e.g. propylene or other octane boosters)
added directly to the ‘OE’ fuel tank. Any external (to the ‘OE’ fuel system)
source of fuel or fuel additive is prohibited, including nitrous oxide systems
and propane.

Do you have alcohol compatible tank, fuel lines, rails, injectors?

Does seem a lot cheaper way of getting Race Fuel level octane levels.

[MazdaMatt]

Does seem a lot cheaper way of getting Race Fuel level octane levels.

Good point. Maybe when I get a new engine for the Del Sol in a couple years there will be mfg's making ethanol honda race engines for a "reasonable" price. That would be nice.