Anybody like event # 3?

[ice/solo racer]

Everyone I talked didn't care to much for the course today,the late start or the only 4 runs thing.
I'd have to say I loved watching Ben wail that firebird around,very cool sounding car indeed.
Just so everyone knows what happened to my car on the first run and can have a good laugh here it is-I mistakenly left a fully charged 10lbs fire extinguisher behind the drivers seat and going thru the first slalom the thing rattled around popped the safety pin out and disharged itself into the car!.Sucked big time for sure.
Very pleased to have finished ahead of Tony for the first time ever and sneak out a class win however,so things worked out in the end depite the rocky start.

[Logan]

I did enjoy the event, but just couldn't get my car any faster!
Too bad we only got four runs, but it was still a fun day.

[JoeT]

12.5 ft gates instead of 15 ft gates made it quite a work out for the good ole family sedan. I wish it was a little wider...

OMG... We all had fun though. :D

[spoonie]

it was a learning experience for me - i've done some road-coarse lapping before and this was NOTHING like it. by run #4 i had my tire pressures sorted out - would have been great to have 2 more runs to try and knock-off a couple of seconds off my brutal lap times.

everyone was very friendly and i cant wait for event #4 - i just hope its a bit more wide open :D

~Russ

[Marsh]

I liked everything but the pin turn. {shudder}. I think only getting 4 runs was due to the course design. I realize that OMSC doesn't host many solo-2's anymore so there isn't a tun of experience in that respect. That said I thought it went well. I don't mind 4 runs. 5 would have been nicer, but at least there was time for fun runs. I also thought marshaling went MUCH better than last year.

Tom, your just bitter because Tony was there and you actually had to try. :p

[Nissan Racer]

I thought the course was pretty good, though I couldn't believe how many people were smoking their tires, squealing to a stop and the one guy the thumped the end cone...this was by far the longest stop box ever!!

[soloZ]

So who won the B1 class today?who was second and third.

[maddindian]

Apart from teh course being way to tight for my boat..err car...it was pretty good.

Everyone was really nice and friendly, which made it a great and positive event for me. The organizer (unfortunately I dind't catch his name) was a very nice guy as was everyone else. So a lot of thank you's goes to to everyone, especially those who took the time to help me out with various things.

Luckily for me, all my runs were clean, and each run was faster than the previous one. Hopefully in the future events, I'll be more competitive.

Again, a big round of thank yous to everyone who took part in making it a really good event, especially those timers and organiziners.

EDIT: I should have videos of a few cars (the ones that I had time to tape) hosted soon. Don't expect high quality tho as my computer is antiquated.

Here' a really low video quality of me, I'll have more of other cars later on. Btw thanks to the guy in the Miata who shot this for me!!
Link (http://individual.utoronto.ca/anooj/maxima-run.WMV)

[Taylor]

I know I'm not reading some of this crap... some of the people here criticize other events meanwhile you just paid $30-35 for 4 runs on an illegal course and not only do I see smiles, I see "accepted understanding".

A club this year ran their first event AutoX event cheaper, and quicker. Their second event, exceeded this one in every way. So I don't think "experience" has anything to do with it. This is an issue of effort.

Another club frequently runs over 100 competitors on longer courses giving 6 runs plus fun runs for less money and even provides lunch.

Another runs half a day, for less money, and gets off over 4 plus fun runs and no marshalling.

Quality. Value. Fun.

Can we put this into perspective please...

[Taylor]

BTW, I was impressed by Ben... dude has horseshoes up his ass or something. :P Not sure what the times were like, but it sure looked fun and impressive.

[ice/solo racer]

I wasn't just trying-I was driving my ass off!!

I was pushing so hard I thought there should have been at least half a dozen cones down on that last banzai run.BTW I wonder if anyone by chance filmed it?I'd like to see it if there were one,we were to hot to do our usual filming.

[roooo]

There's no excuse for setting up an illegal course.
Also, the cost was high for only four runs on such a small lot. Perhaps if Oshawa can't find a more suitable lot than Mosport, they shouldn't be included in 2004? I noticed that after all the troubles last year that there is no Ottawa event on the calendar .. or maybe that is for other reasons.

I drove poorly. Didn't get to see the final run times. Was there even a drivers' meeting at the end of the event?

I'm not completely uhappy with the day overall as my tires needed some more breaking in, and I got to take some nice backroads home.

[Logan]

Taylor,
How was the course illegal?
I saw Robb out with his measuring tape before we got started, and I don't think he raised any objections??

To defend OMSC:
They are a large club, but have very VERY few members that are willing to go out of their way to organize/help.
The organizers you saw DID NOT compete so WE could have fun.
It's unfortuneate that so many OMSC members don't help out the same way as other members in other clubs. We shouldn't punish the ones that DO help out by bitching about their event.
Given the venue, it is impossible to run two cars at once, which in theory reduces the number of runs in a day by 1.
I think anyone that had competed in their Solo 2's before had a good idea what to expect from the event. If you don't like it, you don't have to go, remember, you get two throw-aways.

I'm done now.
:)

[Keith-02Accord]

Logan, There is not way those gates were 15 ft wide, not in a million years.

Overall, I enjoyed the day (Racing is better than almost anything), however the cost for the day was way out of proportion to the venue.

The thing that really ticked me off was the 45 minute lunch break. No need for that, especially when things are running late.

Anyways, I understand we can't expect to have 6 full runs at that venue due to the way the course has to be layed out, but that should be reflected in the cost, shouldn't it?

[Taylor]

Originally posted by Logan
Taylor,
How was the course illegal?
I saw Robb out with his measuring tape before we got started, and I don't think he raised any objections??

[/B]

Gates were only 12.5 feet wide. Rule book says 15 feet.

Originally posted by Logan
They are a large club, but have very VERY few members that are willing to go out of their way to organize/help.


That's not an excuse. In fact, that's a problem. The reality is they charged cash-money for the event. They should be upheld to a minimum standard.. which obviously they continue to redefine.

Originally posted by Logan
The organizers you saw DID NOT compete so WE could have fun.
It's unfortuneate that so many OMSC members don't help out the same way as other members in other clubs. We shouldn't punish the ones that DO help out by bitching about their event.


Then maybe they shouldn't be holding an event. Maybe if they had organizers who are actually Solo 2 competitors they'd understand the complaints. They are HARDLY the only club that has key people at their events not running the events. Shall I point out the Shootout where about 6 or 7 HADA guys stood out in that pissing cold drizzle marshalling all day? Or how about two weeks ago when basically the same guys came out and did it at the regional event.

Waiting in Line to Marhsall is BS. A Lunch Break is BS. Undersized gates in a regional event is BS. 1 run every 70 seconds is BS.

Originally posted by Logan
Given the venue, it is impossible to run two cars at once, which in theory reduces the number of runs in a day by 1.

Am I'm supposed to accept that as an excuse? OMSC decided 3 things here. 1 to do a regional Solo 2 event, 2 to hold it at the Mosport DDT Skidpad (worst venue ever) and 3 to charge $30-35 for it. They COULD have ran a shorter course, to allow for more runs, and therefore a greater value to the fee they charged. They could have provided lunch to greater justify the fee thay charged. They could have started on time and obmitted the 45 minute lunch break to further justify the fee charged.

I refuse to kiss ass and smile and take it because they're volunteers. If you're not up to the task, DON'T VOLUNTEER. I know a little something about donating my time and as a result I know what's acceptable and what isn't. I also know there's about a dozen guys who feel easily the same as I do about this (if not half the people there), guess they're just too polite or rather too smart and realize there's no point.

They chose the venue. They chose the price and they chose how to run it.

Originally posted by Logan
I think anyone that had competed in their Solo 2's before had a good idea what to expect from the event. If you don't like it, you don't have to go, remember, you get two throw-aways.


Once again... there should be a standard of quality. Unfortunately I missed the Picton event, so I can't really take another one off. It's a long series and other comittments come up all the time. If this event was not part of the series, then it wouldn't be an issue.

[Logan]

I'm asking this because I don't know:
Has anyone spoken to OMSC about yesterday's, or their previous events?
If not, perhaps we should talk to them about all these concerns.
I don't believe any OMSC members check the soloII forum (correct me if I'm wrong).
I think OMSC as a club likes hosting a regional event, and might be upset if they aren't given the opportunity next year.

If the gates were 12.5 feet when robb measured before the event started, why weren't the cones moved?
I noticed that some were in the first chicane coming back.
EDIT:
I spoke with Jeff Christie after the event, he was unsure what to charge and followed recommendations from the soloII director (if I remember correctly).

[Taylor]

I have no idea if they were spoke to about last years event. I know I was pretty vocal while standing in line to marshall about how much BS it is to stand in line to marhsall. 'Course last year, 4 runs was par for the course as the clubs were not used to or expecting the amount of competitors Robb and Wes managed to attract. In fact I don't think it was until the PMSC event did we see more than 4 runs. What was it? 6 plus fun runs? Plus they started pretty late, and the lot is much smaller than the skidpad.

I also remember watching a Van go out on the course last year, which I'm pretty sure violates regional rules as well.

At least this year part of one gate wasn't half on the concrete (whatever that section of the skidpad is that they wet down for the driving schools) and off.. there were a few people into the dirt last year from that.

I expect a couple problems as to why the gates were not moved. 1) No one probably cared enough to do it. 2) The boxes were SPRAYPAINTED on. 3) Widening it another 3 feet might have made the "sea of cones" phoenominom(sp) a reality.

Yes, the course could have been laid out in different ways to avoid these problems. If memory serves this is 90% the same course we ran last year.

The word going around about the rate is that they used the Picton and HADA events as a guidline. Then they went out and ran half the event these clubs did (based on what I heard of the Picton event).

Someone was not keeping things in perspective. I dunno maybe there's a little of that BMW Club influence in there, because they run small and tight autocrosses too, but at least they only charge $10 per event and they only get out 1/3rd of the people Sunday's event did.

BTW the first chicane coming back was retardedly narrow. If it was changed, it wasn't announced and therefore I did not walk the course again to see the change. While I appreciate that it was changed, how anyone walking the course couldn't tell it was too narrow in the first place is beyond me. I get the feeling no one drove that course ahead of time.

As I thought I mentioned (perhaps not). I spoke to the organizer as soon as he called the lunch break and voiced my opinion about it because that was basically "the last straw" for me. The end result was he said "Sorry" and turned his back to me and walked away.

Then I spoke to the Solo 2 Director, whom in all fairness, does not control the schedule or layout of the event. And therefore really wasn't in a position to do much about it. Though he does control whether we will see an OMSC event at the DDT next year. Which I'd more than happily attend, if there's some recognition of mistakes made, and a promise of effort and value.

I suspect had I protested as per the rule book by run 3, the event could have been declared invalild. Though the only, I repeat the ONLY, reason I did not do it is I didn't want to belittle the effort made by a number of competitors who drove well over 200kms to get their championship points.

[gatherer]

Taylor I agree 100% with what your saying, and for me I'm still baffled as to whether or not the complaint made when I went up there with you was heard at all...

as for the gates I've decided standard equipment is a tape measure in my tool kit so that if I think there is a problem I could check ....just to be sure... I for one found this event to be seriously lackingand most likely it will be one that gets dropped from my points later in the year.

[Logan]

Taylor,
When I did my walk-throughs, the leftmost cones in the first chicane (left when inside the box, facing the start/finish) had been moved.
The spraypaint markers that were there had big X's through them and there were new markers where the cones had been relocated.

[Taylor]

Then they changed it mid-way, without an announcement. I had already done my walkthroughs.

Not that it mattered much anyway, there were only so many lines you could take, a walkthrough wouldn't have changed much personally.

[Brent]

Were the gates too narrow?

[miataboi]

Here's my take on it...

I did not want to run this event in the first place...

a) last weekend was a double-header for me... and I was solo'd out... needed a break....

b) was told by fellow competitors that the DDT skidpad is a poor lot to run on

c) was out of my way

d) was told that this club has a history of "poor course design" - and that they do not make the most of the lot available...


Well...
Everything I had heard seemed to be true in the end.

I DID run the event because I needed the event to make 7/9 and needed the points...

I found out...
That not only WAS the course poorly designed...
BUT..

Marshalling was poorly run (long line-ups)
ONLY 4 runs!!!! ??????
Lunch-break - and NO FOOD PROVIDED for the price of the entrance fee! ???

The course width was FINE... for a Miata... anything bigger would have almost been rediculous...

The family running it did a good job with what they had... (father started cars ALL DAY... and sis and bro did the timing...) Thanks guys...
QUESTION: WHERE IS THE REST OF THIS CLUB???

If nothing changes for next year... I am tempted to trek out to Picton... instead of doing this closer event.

[haniforama]

I thoroughly enjoyed the company and weather, but not the event.

I think we should expect more from a Regional level event.

Like most things in life, preparation is key to running an event well. Many people need to be contacted, choosing a venue (KEY), supplies need to be tracked down, cones have to be secured, insurance, permits, timing systems. I'd wager 30-40% of the work is done before even setting foot on the lot in the morning.

This preparation includes estimating the number of competitors, laying out the course, calculating the amount of overlap to run with two cars out on course, effectively laying out a course to enhance that overlap, safety concerns, etc. At the HADA event, i knew before we ran the event we had to have a 30-35 second interval between releasing cars from the start box. We averaged 34.4 seconds with all of the printing delays, reruns and red flags so we attained our 6 run goal.

I'm dissapointed at the return i got for my $35 spent. Without a significant effort to increase the value of next year's event, i'm not likely to come back.

Hanif

[Nissan Racer]

hmmm...I saw a Trans-Am, a Camaro, and a Legacy go through with no cones.
Any I hit on my first two runs were entirely my fault. After that my 4 door sedan cut through just fine. Yes they did move some of the cones after the initial set up. There was a final walk through after the drivers meeting...if you chose not to take it, well thats up to you. I'll check with Rob to see if the gates were legal...if they were...this whole arguement is mute. If they were illegal than this should have been brought up before the event started, or as soon as someone noticed...unless I'm wrong, since you only need 3 timed runs for a regional event, they could have been moved after the first timed run, and we would still have gotten 3 official runs in. If nobody complained about it to the officials present, then whining about it on Monday is not going to help. If complaints were made to the solo II officials and nothing was done...then there is a legitimate complaint
4 runs is unfortunate. Would have been nice to have 5, but its better than 3 which is the Solo II requirement.
Had to wait in line to marshal? This is a serious complaint? If it was pissing rain I could see the problem, especially if there was no cover provided...but on a perfect day in the sun?
I don't recall HADA providing lunch...though Picton did.
Any one that went 2 or 4 wheels in the dirt last year or this year..got there themselves, I didn't see a single person manage it by sliding on the concrete. I did see many spin this year...but again they did it themselves. And then theres all the guys that had trouble stopping in the Looooooong section after the lights and into the stop box. There was no excuse for some of the drama that went on there, including one competitor hitting the end cone.

[haniforama]

HADA was unable to provide lunch since the BCSE has a monopoly on all concessions on site.

We did however, give ample warning to all competitors WELL in advance of the event that they (BCSE) were going to provide a BBQ at an additional charge.

Hanif

[Keith-02Accord]

The venue is also 3 times the venue of the Mosport Skid Pad, PLUS nobody had to marshall, PLUS I am sure that BCSE is much more costly to rent then Mosport Skidpad.

[Taylor]

Originally posted by Nissan Racer
hmmm...I saw a Trans-Am, a Camaro, and a Legacy go through with no cones.

Yeah, the Trans-Am coned on his first two runs. He was also fairly slow (no offense Ben, on can only go through that course so quickly). The Camero was slow too (once again I mean no personal offense, but I could have went through with no cones, I could have taken any car in there with no cones, but not with a class winning time). The Legacy... *shrug* it's AWD and hardly stock. I can't believe you're arguing against the claim it was a tight course.

Originally posted by Nissan Racer
There was a final walk through after the drivers meeting...if you chose not to take it, well thats up to you.

If the course design changed, at a regional level it should be announced immediately (worst case at the drivers meeting). There's no excuse for that.

Originally posted by Nissan Racer
I'll check with Rob to see if the gates were legal...if they were...this whole arguement is mute. If they were illegal than this should have been brought up before the event started, or as soon as someone noticed...


Hanif walked them with 11 paces of his shoes. After expressing playful concern to Wes about the second lane change gate coming back, he came back and told me they were 12.5 feet. I asked him how big they're supposed to be and he said 15. The rule book's language isn't terribly clear... or rather it appears open to interpretation. I'm still presuming "course" means "gate"

And I explained why I personally did not protest the rule book legality of the event as a whole. It's not my place to force such a decision that effects 73 others.

Originally posted by Nissan Racer
then whining about it on Monday is not going to help. If complaints were made to the solo II officials and nothing was done...then there is a legitimate complaint


As I said, 12.5 feet wide. This info came from an official. I did not lodge a formal complaint due to the reasons posted above. The width of the gates is at the bottom of my list of concerns anyhow.

Originally posted by Nissan Racer
4 runs is unfortunate. Would have been nice to have 5, but its better than 3 which is the Solo II requirement.


Pat, you're not an OMSC member by chance are you. 3 runs is UNACCEPTIBLE. just because it's bare minimum in the rule book, how should one with only 3 be considered an acceptible event? Ask anyone. People are still burning over Ottawa. 4 runs is passable, but my concern is the fee charged in relation to the value delivered. Actually my concern is the few people here so seem to think there was nothing wrong with the event when they've spent time in other threads complaining about other Solo 2 events.

Originally posted by Nissan Racer
Had to wait in line to marshal? This is a serious complaint? If it was pissing rain I could see the problem, especially if there was no cover provided...but on a perfect day in the sun?


What if it was pissing rain? What if we had 100 competitors out? What if they started another 30 minutes later? How about at noon like last year at the Hershey Centre events with 114+ people at each event?

I agree it's nitpicking but it's also unecessary and detracts from time I'd rather spend doing something else like video taping, eating, talking, working on the car, tire pressures, anything. Fortunatley the delay between runs was so great, it really wasn't an issue. Guess that nullifies the complaint.

Originally posted by Nissan Racer
I don't recall HADA providing lunch...though Picton did.


This isn't about lunch, this is about value. Had Sunday's event included a reasonable lunch, obviously it's value would be increased, in fact, there'd be justification for a lunch break too. But that did not happen. 6 runs + fun runs at the HADA event, food was 10 meters away from the timing tent. I didn't go to Picton, but yeah, 5 runs and lunch. Those are events which should set a standard. This event, by comparison is substandard. Better than Ottawa last year? I presume so (wasn't there...thankfully) but now Ottawa isn't on the schedule this year either is it?

Originally posted by Nissan Racer
Any one that went 2 or 4 wheels in the dirt last year or this year..got there themselves, I didn't see a single person manage it by sliding on the concrete. I did see many spin this year...but again they did it themselves. And then theres all the guys that had trouble stopping in the Looooooong section after the lights and into the stop box. There was no excuse for some of the drama that went on there, including one competitor hitting the end cone.

Well obviously I disagree. I watched people drop tires onto that surface and subsequently spin. While it could have been avoided to drop a tire off, how's this any different than if a pot hole was there? What about a curb? There's specific lines in the rule book regarding curbs. But hey, I was actually pointing out a good thing about the course design vs last years.

Man you're really jazzed about the stop box thing. I'm guessing Joe was hitting close to 100km/h in his Legacy. Presuming the driver wants to ensure he clears the gate before braking, they have about 110 feet in which to stop. In a 3500lb car that could be difficult. Also all cars were travelling on a curve through the gate to the stop box. Now, perhaps the guy who did hit it could have easily not hit it, I didn't see that happen, but not every car there was going through the stop gate at the same speed. It was a very fast section, which I fishtailed once in fact and every time braking required some effort. People were locking up there.

There's something called the "squared rule of velocity and braking distances", and while it takes into account response time and liberties assuming equal cars you can see a 15 ft difference in braking from 20-30mph. At 50-60mph you're looking at a difference of 55ft. So while your low horsepower/torque sedan might have had plenty of time to stop, a high hp/tq sports car didn't have the same kind of distance. While no one should have hit the end cone, it shouldn't come as a surprise that people didn't stop their cars until just before it. Plus if you get into the ABS, the braking distance is even longer. So yes it was a long box, but it was also a long sweeper to go through it.

[miataboi]

Originally posted by Taylor


Hanif walked them with 11 paces of his shoes. After expressing playful concern to Wes about the second lane change gate coming back, he came back and told me they were 12.5 feet.

Have you seen the SIZE of this man's feet? GYNORMOUS! The man must be HUNG like a horse!!! 11 paces of Hanif's shoes... mean that the course MUST have been at LEAST 16.5 ft. wide... thereby... making the course legal!

;) :p :D

[Taylor]

Maybe it wasn't his feet you were looking at...

[Brent]

Obviously, by my photo, it can be seen that the width of the gates is a moot point since most of the cones could have been removed and the line through the gates wouldn't change. The gates in effect created an offset slalom but as a slalom the cones were not placed far enough apart. IMO if the distance from gate to gate had been increased by just a couple of feet nobody would have complained. Is there a minimum distance from gate to gate like there is between cones in a slalom?

A quick look at the run times indicates that approximately 25% of all runs took out at least one cone. Out of the 284 runs listed there were 122 cones hit. Granted I hit 121 of the cones but doesn't this seem higher than normal?

If the club did all their own marshalling they would have been really tired at the end of the day.:D

[haniforama]

My shoes (among other things :D ) are exactly 12.75" long.

The gates were 11 of my shoes wide.

Doing the math, the gates were 11 feet, 8 and 1/4 inches wide.

Hanif

[Nissan Racer]

Originally posted by Taylor
Yeah, the Trans-Am coned on his first two runs. He was also fairly slow (no offense Ben, on can only go through that course so quickly). The Camero was slow too (once again I mean no personal offense, but I could have went through with no cones, I could have taken any car in there with no cones, but not with a class winning time). The Legacy... *shrug* it's AWD and hardly stock. I can't believe you're arguing against the claim it was a tight course.

(Well they fit, and some damn nice driving if I may say so. And a 45 sec run would put you in the top 2 or 3 of any class there except B1...I'd say thats pretty fast. But perhaps you are right, maybe it had to do more with driver skill rather than size of car)



If the course design changed, at a regional level it should be announced immediately (worst case at the drivers meeting). There's no excuse for that.



Hanif walked them with 11 paces of his shoes. After expressing playful concern to Wes about the second lane change gate coming back, he came back and told me they were 12.5 feet. I asked him how big they're supposed to be and he said 15. The rule book's language isn't terribly clear... or rather it appears open to interpretation. I'm still presuming "course" means "gate"

And I explained why I personally did not protest the rule book legality of the event as a whole. It's not my place to force such a decision that effects 73 others.

[I look at it the same as what happened to you at the Peterborough event last year. There was a time and place (drivers meeting) for anyone to voice a complaint about your seating situation...no one did...end of discussion, for it to be brought up again later was unfair to you (IMO)
Same deal here, if its not protested onsite at the time of the problem, then at the end of the event all arguements are done.
You are probably completely right about the gates, I'll look the rules up myself, but I do know from years of International competition, if you don't speak up and protest, hard as the outcome may be, you are ensuring that it will occur again...why....well we can all complain about it but in the end they got the money and you ran in the event so it must have been OK...and if it wasn't, well, nobody stopped them so its fair game to do it again until somebody does. I personnaly have had National level competitions de-sanctioned for similar type offences...It sucks, but someones got to have the stones to do it. If not then theres no point complaining on Monday, I too have been guilty of this..eg. after the Pro Slalom]






Pat, you're not an OMSC member by chance are you. 3 runs is UNACCEPTIBLE. just because it's bare minimum in the rule book, how should one with only 3 be considered an acceptible event? Ask anyone. People are still burning over Ottawa. 4 runs is passable, but my concern is the fee charged in relation to the value delivered. Actually my concern is the few people here so seem to think there was nothing wrong with the event when they've spent time in other threads complaining about other Solo 2 events.

[I never said 3 was acceptable but thats the minimum requirement since you are stating rules]






This isn't about lunch, this is about value. Had Sunday's event included a reasonable lunch, obviously it's value would be increased, in fact, there'd be justification for a lunch break too. But that did not happen. 6 runs + fun runs at the HADA event, food was 10 meters away from the timing tent. I didn't go to Picton, but yeah, 5 runs and lunch. Those are events which should set a standard. This event, by comparison is substandard. Better than Ottawa last year? I presume so (wasn't there...thankfully) but now Ottawa isn't on the schedule this year either is it?

[The Hada event was great and should be judged as such, but to hold others to your standard might not be fair, and yes I know why Hada could not provide the lunch, but it seems like a minor problem to me.]



Well obviously I disagree. I watched people drop tires onto that surface and subsequently spin. While it could have been avoided to drop a tire off, how's this any different than if a pot hole was there? What about a curb? There's specific lines in the rule book regarding curbs. But hey, I was actually pointing out a good thing about the course design vs last years.

[Everybody ran the same course, so If some managed it without spinning.....]

Man you're really jazzed about the stop box thing. I'm guessing Joe was hitting close to 100km/h in his Legacy. Presuming the driver wants to ensure he clears the gate before braking, they have about 110 feet in which to stop. In a 3500lb car that could be difficult. Also all cars were travelling on a curve through the gate to the stop box. Now, perhaps the guy who did hit it could have easily not hit it, I didn't see that happen, but not every car there was going through the stop gate at the same speed. It was a very fast section, which I fishtailed once in fact and every time braking required some effort. People were locking up there.

[Still no excuse, its a safety issue, you should know your car and if it can't stop in time, brake earlier...if that means braking before the stop lights...so be it. We've had some very short boxes too, remember Peterborough? I had to get on the brakes before crossing the beam, its the drivers responsibility to bring his car safely to a stop...sure a Mini might be able to start braking IN the box, but if you drive a 3500# monster, you'd better brake earlier.]

[Marsh]

Well after being to previous OMSC and PMSC events where we did measuer (and move) half a dozen gaters I can honestly say this course was not that tight. I'm thinking maybe the WOSCA event should have 15' gates EXACTLY and you can learn what tight really means (it won't thought because I'm getting sick of whining). If Ben can get his fire chicken through there sideways then it was big enough.

BTW the gate that was moved, was moved very early in the morning. I pointed it out during my first course walk, sometime around 9 am and it was moved emmidiately. If the gates were too small there was plenty of time to point it out during the walk and Jeff was more than willing to correct errors.

[J.C.]

Gates and slaloms being tight is nothing new. It is very easy to tell when you look at a parking lot. Parking spaces are generally 9' wide so gates should be 1 & 2/3 parking spaces apart and slaloms should be atleast 5 parking spaces apart 45'. When these courses are laid out are they just randomly placed? I was under the impression that things were measured and laidout according to a predesigned drawing? Now I hear alot of, well if you have a problem with it you have to complain at the time of the event. Yes that is true otherwise you are SOL. So are we expected to run around with a tape measure for lots without markings?

P.S. I know I may sound a little bitter but as a former driver of a 1987 mustang I can tell you most of you have no idea how tuff it is getting threw those gates. When the rules say a minimum it does not mean the gates can't be bigger.

[ice/solo racer]

So Taylor your saying you didn't like the event?kinda hard to tell(he he):D

I titled this thread tongue in cheek,didn't care for the course but it was the same for everyone although it would certainly have disadvantaged those with wider/longer cars.
I liked the people,their pretty much always the same faces so that stays constant:cool: Should outlaw those f---ing pin turn things in all auto crosses IMO(or at least make the direction around them optional!)
I would be nice to see the sport take on a little higher profile and part of that includes better lots and course designs,last years mosport event was a much better course IMO.
I think the width of the lane change cones wasn't as big a deal is the closeness to each other,spreading out the course a little to take away the run into the stop box would have helped I think.
I'm just glad I have a narrow and short wheelbase car cause even at that there was a bunch of steering wheel flailing going on!.

[super seven]

I agree with Taylor, I think i had more fun just hanging out in the shade and babysitting my wife and dog ! She and he doesn't read this forum!Actually she had a lot of patience waiting so long and seeing me out there for only 163 seconds.
We must all be crazy driving out there , setting up our cars , sweating and paying for 3 seconds of limitless driving ?
I think we would attract more cars if there was more quality.
I would like to suggest a few things:
No marshelling Especially waiting to marshel?
Good flowing legal courses that dont expect your car to do things unimaganable.
what happened to free stuff at the end of the event, free oil ,tshirts etc.
a barbeque , note : having water bottles available at event 3 was a nice touch - thanks
a early start
and at lastl 6 runs mandatory
I think all of these items are possible with about 80 cars showing up.
I don't like to be negative, but I think Taylor is right and something should be done .
I also think I shouldn't bring my wife and dog and concentrate more at the events!

[maddindian]

Originally posted by ice/solo racer

I'm just glad I have a narrow and short wheelbase car cause even at that there was a bunch of steering wheel flailing going on!.

You were in the orange/copper coloured Corolla/AE86 right?? Nice driving and nice car!

Yeah you were lucky you were in a small car, I was the dude in the Maxima (also posted second slowest time!! :D)..and well it was a challenge not hitting any cones..which I didn't btw! :D :D

[maddindian]

Originally posted by super seven
I agree with Taylor, I think i had more fun just hanging out in the shade and babysitting my wife and dog ! She and he doesn't read this forum!Actually she had a lot of patience waiting so long and seeing me out there for only 163 seconds.
We must all be crazy driving out there , setting up our cars , sweating and paying for 3 seconds of limitless driving ?
I think we would attract more cars if there was more quality.
I would like to suggest a few things:
No marshelling Especially waiting to marshel?
Good flowing legal courses that dont expect your car to do things unimaganable.
what happened to free stuff at the end of the event, free oil ,tshirts etc.
a barbeque , note : having water bottles available at event 3 was a nice touch - thanks
a early start
and at lastl 6 runs mandatory
I think all of these items are possible with about 80 cars showing up.
I don't like to be negative, but I think Taylor is right and something should be done .
I also think I shouldn't bring my wife and dog and concentrate more at the events!

I so wanted a ride-along in your Super 7...wow...awesome machine!

[ice/solo racer]

Yep I was the guy with copper corolla with all the fire bottle dust rolling out the windows on the first run!:(

Anybody ever try getting a bunch of that in your mouth and throat and then try and get it out on a stinking hot day?I could've used any suggestions as I tasted that crap untill this morning.

Thanks for the compliments-I think I posted the second fastest time!

[Nissan Racer]

lol...so are you going to light off another bottle at the next event and try for 1st
Apparantly it made you faster :D

[andrew1984]

Originally posted by J.C.

P.S. I know I may sound a little bitter but as a former driver of a 1987 mustang I can tell you most of you have no idea how tuff it is getting threw those gates. When the rules say a minimum it does not mean the gates can't be bigger.


amen to that brother!

[JoeT]

Look at the bright side. At least in this course, there were some fast sections and some slow sections. Unlike some other events, this course was only slightly biased towards short wheelbase cars. :p

Even though it the switchbacks were hard on the Family Boat, we still managed to have fun. And isn't that the point?

But rules are rules and they were put there for a reason...

The Legacy... *shrug* it's AWD and hardly stock

Yeah, but it had a baby seat! :D

Man you're really jazzed about the stop box thing. I'm guessing Joe was hitting close to 100km/h in his Legacy. Presuming the driver wants to ensure he clears the gate before braking, they have about 110 feet in which to stop. In a 3500lb car that could be difficult.

Actually the speed was 98 Kph, and I never had a hard time at the stop box. I couldn't understand why some people had a hard time with the stop box. My 3700 lb boat had plenty of room. (Boy I gotta lose some weight, sheeesh)

Oh yeah... Windows are fixed... They go down now, and both my rad fans actually work. Finally spotted the short. Wooohoooo.
With all the windows down, it should lower my center of gravity... LOL Bwahahaha!!!

See y'all out there.

[Gord]

Just to clarify, there is no event in Ottawa this year due to the unavailability of a lot on a pre-determined schedule. We only get a few days notice before setting an event date.

Too bad bacause this years lot is the best one we have ever had (1200 x 400 ft black lake).

What was the big issue that everyone had with last years Ottawa event? This is the first I have heard of any complaints.

-Gord

[Yvan]

Maybe it's not too late to add an Ottawa event ??

[andrew1984]

i agree with taylor.

this course was BS.

edit- p.s i appreciated the effort by the club. it was smooth, but slow & expensive.

[ShaneG]

I think it comes down to value...

I was happy with my results, consistancy, the weather, The Chip Truck Fries etc.

BUT... what you get vs. what you pay is my only gripe.

at $25 I'd shut up.
but $30 or even $35 (non series registered) I would expect more...lunch like in Picton, or no marshaling duties (I may be biased on that one, but that is how I see it.) ...and if not, at least as many runs as humanly possible. Not 4 runs and a 30 - 45min lunch break

As a local event the price will determine the #'s and therefore the viability of the event...but as a regional event, series registered entrants are easy targets to have the price bumped for some easy extra cash.

I feel bad (to a certain degree) bashing the event because there were very few people doing all the work and I do want to acknowledge and thank them, but the organising club as a whole needs to step up or get out. (of regional Solo2 events)

[Taylor]

Yes exactly. I have an appreciation for people stepping up and volunteering their time to do something which is why I was not a jerk about being ripped off. HOWEVER, that said, the club is collecting a couple grand, some of which is my money. And I have to agree with Shane, the regional guys are an easy target, they can only throw 2 events away and mosport is like the 3rd closest to the majority of competitors so it's like shooting fish in a barrel (or something like that).

No way would that event be populated if it wern't a regional event at that price. And I think that's more than enough justification and proof it was over priced and undervalued.

I'm not trying to be negative, I'm pointing out the facts and I don't like basically being forced to run such an event. And no, it shouldn't be up to me to skip it or make the other events, it should meet a minimum standard so at least we know what the worst case is and are able to accept it. Basically if no one speaks up (which I did, ON-SITE about a number of these issues) then what stops the event from being run this way again?

I'm not saying it's deliberate or anything, but sometimes you just need someone to tell you when your breath stinks.

Once again with Ben and the Firebird, he was 3.5-5 seconds slower than I was, so the fact he could get though the course a couple times clean has jack to do with it.

As for protesting, hey I gave my reason and inlight of that I still told an official. It's really up to them to enforce the rule book. Ultimately with that knowledge they should have been the bad guys, it's not like I was protesting someone's classification.

Joe: I never suggested you had a problem with it, but it wasn't a walk in the park either. No doubt you had one of the quicker (straight line) cars there. Heck even I had guys backing up from their position at the stop box when I would come in even though I had a good firm foot on the pedal.

Madindian: Hrm... not sure I'd call the Corolla small. Maybe it's deceptively big? I dunno. Kudos to Tom though, that's for sure. It sure as heck ain't a miata or mini.

Gord: I suspect the problem with the Ottawa event was the fact people only got 3 runs and they had at least 10 hours of driving to get them.

[Marsh]

Originally posted by Gord

What was the big issue that everyone had with last years Ottawa event? This is the first I have heard of any complaints.

-Gord

I drove 7 hours for 3 runs.

[Gord]

Yes, it's a long way to go for a couple of minutes of track time. But isn't that somewhat just the nature of the beast? Not trying to defend getting minimal run time, but on the best of events, 5 or 6 minutes of running is really good. Driving a long distance even for that is still a long haul, and in many ways it just doesn't add up.

Too bad about that venue. The locals were trying to "force" us out with pushing later start and earlier end times. And the lot size really didn't allow for multiple cars to run at once. That and over 100 cars, plus the usual glitches made for limited running. Yeah, it's unfortunate for the guys who came from far away.

Still, it was a cool event. Big turnouts from Montreal, Ottawa, Kingston, Toronto, and further (and the best from those areas) made for a very competitive event. Kind of a central Canada shootout. Too bad it wasn't at our current lot...

-Gord

[haniforama]

I have been to 4-5 events in Detroit with 200+ competitors, a 40 second course and everyone got 4 runs. The SCCA takes this stuff seriously...

They have the luxury of some really nice parking lots though.

Courses with three cars on track, almost NO off courses, very few cones, very few glitches. Again, it comes down to pre-event planning.

[tony mcgrath]

Taylor:

I recall there used to be a monetary performance bond that had to be posted by all clubs organizing a Regional event, and if they didnt measure up to the organizational rules then they lost that bond to CASC. This was decided upon by the Solo 2 director. I dont know if that is still in the rulebook but maybe it is time to revisit that rule.
On the other end of the scale - there was an award given out to the Best Organized event of the series, and I recall there were some real battles between organizing clubs to win that award in the Eighties. Maybe its time to dust off that award and bring it back into play. Maybe a significant monetary award could be paid back to the club that wins "Best Organized Event" ?

Seems to me they also used to have an organizing clubs meeting at the start of each season to remind and educate all those setting up the events that there ARE rules for course dimensions, minimum turning radiuses, distances from fixed barriers etc. as well as procedures to handle registration , marshalling, posting of results, tech inspection, and distribution of final results in a timely manner.
I dont know if that is still being done, but if not it, sounds like it should.

Maybe a simple "Guideline to Organizing clubs " should be produced. A 3 or 4 page outline of things to keep in mind when running a Regional. This gets sent out to each club before the season starts and is also made available on- line. Maybe something like this already exists- I know Barry Searle was very instrumental in building up the Regional series from 1996+ and he may have something on file. I know there was something like this back in the eighties, maybe a copy still exists in the CASC office archives.

So send a note to Racer Robb with your concerns, and suggestions on how to fix them, and see where it leads.

I was amazed to see the growth that the Regional series has had over the past couple of seasons, and your right about value for the money. The Regionals should be at the top of the "value for dollar" scale and set the standards for other events to emulate. Otherwise the competitors wont make the trip across the Province to attend all the events and everyone loses.

Tony

"Lead with a carrot, back it up with a stick"

[haniforama]

An organizing club award is a FANTASTIC idea!

Meritocracy vs mediocracy...

[Logan]

I like it too!
That way PMSC can observe all the preceeding events and one up you all!
mwahahahahaha!!!

In all honesty I see that as a problem. It's possible the first organizing club each year could be upstaged as the season progresses.
Perhaps that's why there is no award now?

I still think it's a good idea.

[tony mcgrath]

Originally posted by Logan
I like it too!
That way PMSC can observe all the preceeding events and one up you all!
mwahahahahaha!!!

In all honesty I see that as a problem. It's possible the first organizing club each year could be upstaged as the season progresses.
Perhaps that's why there is no award now?

I still think it's a good idea.

Can you imagine a series where each event is organized BETTER than the next?
Catered lunches, dedicated marshals, on site performance alignments, foot massages, drivers lounge with piped in video footage of the event.
I dont see this as a problem...
Count me in. :D

Tony

[JoeT]

Can you imagine a series where each event is organized BETTER than the next?
Catered lunches, dedicated marshals, on site performance alignments, foot massages, drivers lounge with piped in video footage of the event.
I dont see this as a problem...
Count me in.


Hey Tony, don't hog the dube. Nice haluscinations... If it ever turns out that way, I'm in for sure, and why stop at foot massages?

[Yvan]

I knew what I was getting into when I made the trek to Mosport this year. I didn't like the venue or the course last year. The only reason I went this year is for the points (talk about sucking the fun out of the sport!).

At 30 cents per point I got what I came for but I expect much better for my money. If it were $20 I'd keep my mouth shut.

miataboi: don't make me proposition your ASS

[miataboi]

Originally posted by Yvan
I knew what I was getting into when I made the trek to Mosport this year. I didn't like the venue or the course last year. The only reason I went this year is for the points (talk about sucking the fun out of the sport!).

At 30 cents per point I got what I came for but I expect much better for my money. If it were $20 I'd keep my mouth shut.

ME TOO!!!

Originally posted by Yvan
miataboi: don't make me proposition your ASS

In your dreams!!!

:D :p

[Marsh]

Originally posted by tony mcgrath
...Maybe a simple "Guideline to Organizing clubs " should be produced. A 3 or 4 page outline of things to keep in mind when running a Regional....

I wrote an organizers hand book 2 years ago and put it up on WOSCA's web site. I posted a link here and asked for feedback. I got no responses at all.

[ice/solo racer]

Please Please do not add Ottawa to the schedule!

About nine hours of towing and a bunch of money =zero fun, super late start(I spent well over 4hours waiting there!)3 runs on a very dirty rough course(layout was ok though)about 2 hours between runs etc. etc..Besides all that I sucked with an 8th when I needed a win badly.


I for one will never go back to an event there even if the event was free.

Yeah what Tony said is ok with me!:D

[tony mcgrath]

Originally posted by Marsh
I wrote an organizers hand book 2 years ago and put it up on WOSCA's web site. I posted a link here and asked for feedback. I got no responses at all.

Marshall: you are just ahead of your time!! :p

Two years ago this forum had a lot less members than it does now and probably even less of them were organizers.

Send your link to Robb Smith and let him send out a notice to all Solo 2 organizing clubs that an organizers guide is available.
The link you provided to Roger Johnsons course set up PDF is a great idea. Had OMSC read it over beforehand they would have probably tweaked their course in a couple of places and made it much more enjoyable to drive.

Tony

[rmicroys]

Originally posted by ice/solo racer
Please Please do not add Ottawa to the schedule!

About nine hours of towing and a bunch of money =zero fun, super late start(I spent well over 4hours waiting there!)3 runs on a very dirty rough course(layout was ok though)about 2 hours between runs etc. etc..Besides all that I sucked with an 8th when I needed a win badly.

I for one will never go back to an event there even if the event was free.

That's a dissapointing attitude for what is needed for a 'regional championship'. It's really too bad that the championship is so 'T.dot centric' - not even from just a Solo2 perspective, this even shows it's face from a Road Racing perspective - the turnout for Regional Road Racing @ SMP is abysmal even. 'Too far' is the big comment from all the Toronto racers. Somewhat dissapointing. I've got to haul from Ottawa to Mosport or SMP for every event I go to...

But at MCO, this year we really do have an amazing lot - best yet since '95 for those who did come up in the mid '90s to the Corel Centre. Unforutnately the Corel Centre never can hold dates for us, up until 2weeks prior to our events they can outright cancel them on us - so it makes organizing a regional event rather tough. But the new lot is spectacular.

[ice/solo racer]

If the event had been even close to worth it the drive would have been as well.
But facts have to be faced,the event was a poor one and the long distance the 60+ regional competitors travelled simply amplified the dislike of the event in my mind.If I could afford to road race(some day)then I'd drive the distances required as well,BUT nine hours of towing for about a minute and half of seat time is more than a bit much.
If your club ever considered hosting a regional event again please don't do a club challenge thing and invite quebec clubs and others to come at the same time as regional guys do.It seemed as that was a big part of the problem last year by overwelming the regristration people and on and on.

[rmicroys]

Originally posted by ice/solo racer
If the event had been even close to worth it the drive would have been as well.

That's certainly a risk of those who may travel a 'significant' distance to go Solo II. I think it's also a t.dot issue. I've never seen Montrealers or Ottawa people whine as much as folks from T.dot We've had people come to our Winter Solo2 events from as far as Quebec City for a Solo2... knowing they may only get 3-4 runs? Wowzer.


But facts have to be faced,the event was a poor one and the long distance the 60+ regional competitors travelled simply amplified the dislike of the event in my mind.

Certianly the small venue and overwhelming of the registration staff is an issue. It's been a long time since MCO has run a regional Solo II, and at best the difference noticed at the registration hut in the past was negligible. This time was different. Also, we can't control the Montreal effect - they come whenever they like - those guys are hardcore - much more than the T.dot folk. They don't think twice about driving to Ottawa for a Solo II and rarely complain about much at all.

If I could afford to road race(some day)then I'd drive the distances required as well,BUT nine hours of towing for about a minute and half of seat time is more than a bit much.

Well... don't get your hopes up that Road Racing is going to be a "value added proposition" for you. Ask Tony too - we can share all sorts of stories how your road racing day (let alone the season) can be ruined in a moment. Be prepared for greater potential dissapointment if you think that driving to Ottawa for a bad Solo II event gets your knickers in a twist. One accident can turn a one hour endurance race in to a 45 minute pacecar lapping session. Been there, seen it, done it, went home completely dissatisfied after spending a lot more money than any Solo2 competitor.

YMMV...

[tanney]

I've never seen Montrealers or Ottawa people whine as much as folks from T.dot

Rob, Tom is NOT from Toronto. He is from Huntsville!!!

I, personally, am going to make a point of trying to get back to Ottawa for a MCO event this year. I had a great time (as did my wife and buddy) when I went to an event at Jetform in 2001.

MCO have lots of great people who have the same interests as most of us located in the GTA.

The big difference I've noticed is that competitors in the GTA do have a tendancy to be a little bit more competitive, but we are all car lovers who like nothing more than to thrash about on a Saturday or Sunday (or any other day for that matter) in our cars.

[Taylor]

I think things may need to be put into a little more perspective here before labelling a group of people. But basically us city folk (which obviously Tom is not part of) generally have longer work weeks (at least give me that we have a longer commute) therefore there's a tendancy to value ones time a little more. Anyone wants to know why people drive like asses on the highways here? That's exactly why. Takes a half hour just to drop off a movie 2kms away. Convienences leads to constant inconvienence.

However I think at the core here is the fact that there is always some other event locally someone could go to, and when they comitt and travel 1000+kms in one day because it's a regional event where they could have had more fun and more value from an event that was 10kms away, they/we get a little pissed.

Since Ottawa is 5 hours away, to get there for registration one has to leave at 3am and doesn't get home till well after 10pm. Which means now they have to rent a room and cut into their entire weekend. In the end, the majority of the regional competitors will come from the area with the greatest population density. And that area is 5+ hours from Ottawa.

People have families, wives, whatever. When you sacrifice a whole weekend for 3 runs, you get pretty pissed off.

At least that's my perspective on it.

Atlantic Canadians usually have to drive to Moncton or St.Johns for half their AutoX events. Honestly there's no need for it but since there are maybe a whopping 7 Solo 2's in that region a year, they get the shakes and end up doing the drive. (course that drive can be done in a day)

BTW, a number of us Solo 2 Tdot whiners make the drive to Shannonville and Mosport and Cayuga on a regular basis for Solo 1. But we're talking 2 events in a weekend. Much more seat time. It's a greater value for time invested.

Not sure I'd say Montreal'ers driving a big ol' one hour to an event in Ottawa doesn't make them hard core. A number of people have been driving to the WOSCA events which are an hour away from the Western part of the GTA. Haven't heard anyone complain about the quality of those events.

I personally flew to PEI last year for CNAC. A couple other TO guys drove up. I'll probably do it again... why? Because the event is worth it. There is value there. 3 days (Practice, Day 1 and Day 2). Guys come up from the US (i.e. the SCCA guys with those SuperVee's)

In my opinion if MCO wants to attract regional (tdot) competitors, maybe they should host a regional one day and a club event the next?! If it were a double header, the effort is now twice worth it.

But I think basically people will need some sort of guarantee (or pre-registration w/entry cap) that the event will not be a repeat of last years which as I understand it turned so many people off.

[rmicroys]

My bad... Tom - you're hard core, certainly to trailer a Solo II car from Huntsville to Ottawa.

I agree Wes, we're all in it for the fun of the sport. We just have to learn how to be open, and how to give constructive comments and help all clubs improve.

I echo the comments of the others, organizing events should be a very easy and repeatable thing. It's not rocket science. Do it once, and you get an idea of what's needed, document the process a little, and voila. The problem is that too many people just keep this stuff in their heads, and don't pass on the knowledge and experiences - so it gets lost, and we as a collective group of clubs continuously experience the same problems throughout the years...

Rob

[ice/solo racer]

Like I said it wasn't so much the drive as I trailer a car 5-7 hours round trip for EVERY regional I run which is pretty much em all.
And as far as knowing the costs of such an endevor as road racing,well lets just say I'm well versed in the costs of motorsports with 7 very competitive ice race seasons(back to back weekend stud tire roll overs and blown engines isn't to cheap) along with my second year comitted to regional solo 2.My solo car is the 6th competition only car I've built.

Um Taylor,not sure if I should be insulted or not-does that mean I'm out the loop?I thought I just fought my way into the little solo circle:D

[craig]

So ... what I get from all this is what exists now is de facto a SoloGTA championship, not a SoloOntario championship.

Why not have a very few regional events? That way, one could have true regional competition - having, say, four two-day two-course events (one east, one west, two GTA) would mean competitors from across the province could reasonably compete.

Just an idea from a non-hardcore Solo/Rally driver whose car is now hopelessly outclassed in Solo2 thanks to the 2003 rule changes, but finally not hopelessly outclassed in Solo1, again thanks to the 2003 rule changes.

[Keith-02Accord]

What rule changes in solo2 are you referring to? To the best of my knowledge, there were no significant class changes or prep. point changes.

Also, 5 out of 9 regional events are not in the GTA (I'm not a math genius, but that works out to less than 1/2 of the events in GTA).

I'm willing to bet at least 1/2 of the regional competitors are from the GTA, so actually it is slightly out of proportion. Don't get me wrong, I'm not b$#ching about it, I rather enjoy getting out of the city.

I hear what you're saying though, it would be easier to travel less.

[ice/solo racer]

Craig that idea is ok with me,I'd like have something like Tony mentioned in the way of a performance bond in hosting something like this(or any regional?)lets say a min. of 5 runs or entry fee returned-that should get the organizing club to ensure starting on time and keeping moving along!:)

[Gord]

So Tom, are you saying you want the minimum number of runs raised from 3 to 5?

Yes, I like lots of runs too, but at the same time one has to be realistic. I don't believe (correct me if I am wrong) that there is an entry limit cap for regional events is there? I also think anyone and everyone should be encouraged to come out and participate. I would guess that this is what was originally intended as well with setting the minimum number to 3. I believe the SCCA is the same way.

It seems a lot of people are just breaking this down to $$ and distance vs. seat time. Frankly, I think there is more to the sport than that. Nobody has mentioned competition. When it all come down to the end, everyone has to compete on the same track, with the same number of runs, against the same competition. And some group always has to travel.

I think even with the short-comings of last years Ottawa regional, it absolutely rocked simply just because of the competition. The best from all over Ontario and Quebec together going head to head.

What, are people afraid of a little competition?

-Gord

[Taylor]

Competition...

Toronto to Detroit is quicker.

4 runs, 200 cars.

Gotta do that this year.

[craig]

What rule changes in solo2 are you referring to?

I'm referring to negative prep points only being allowed in SP, whereas before they were allowed in SS. I realize that is an insignificant change for most (all?) serious Solo2 competitors, but even "stock" class rally cars have to have cages, seats, etc. :cool:

The rules are probably going to change entirely with the national Solo committee, and I'm never going to run regional Solo2 given the current format, so its all moot anyhow.

Also, 5 out of 9 regional events are not in the GTA (I'm not a math genius, but that works out to less than 1/2 of the events in GTA).

Yes, but you have to do a bunch of them to run the series. It just adds up to a lot of weekends. As mentioned by others, a five-hour drive kills the entire weekend - which means almost all the events kill weekends - at least if one is in Ottawa (which is, after all, the largest population center in Ontario outside the Golden Horseshoe).

way of a performance bond in hosting something like this(or any regional?)lets say a min. of 5 runs or entry fee returned-that should get the organizing club to ensure

Please note the municipal government in Ottawa cancelled MCO from using the lot on Saturday (a two-day event was planned and booked), and (essentially) wouldn't let us run until noon (or 11:00am or whatever) on the Sunday - and we didn't find out the latter until shortly before the event.

I realize that wasn't the only issue with that event, but I suspect it was the major contributing factor to participant disappointment.

[rmicroys]

Originally posted by ice/solo racer
Craig that idea is ok with me,I'd like have something like Tony mentioned in the way of a performance bond in hosting something like this(or any regional?)lets say a min. of 5 runs or entry fee returned-that should get the organizing club to ensure starting on time and keeping moving along!:)

Well if we stick to the rulebook, you are only entitled to three runs.

Also, For the Ottawa event it did start close to "on time"... that lot gave us a lot of headaches due to the new residents on the block and we weren't allowed to start before 11am last year anyways...

[roooo]

Capping event entries is up to the club running the event as far as I know. The Corvette event last year was capped, Twin Lakes often caps their events even though they are not Regional events, and then there is the go-kart event which is for Regional competitors only.

Ahh .. it'll be great when there is an online signup sheet for each event so Regional competitors can reserve their spot at events in advance, then clubs will have a better idea of what numbers to expect. (wish list)

As far as the Regional series being GTA-centric ...
I'm sure that when there are active clubs with secured lots elsewhere in the province then there will be events on the calendar in places like Thunder Bay, Ottawa, etc.

[Tony Kloosterma]

I've been reading this thread and pondered many times when to say something.
First off I hear way too many bitches on this board about driving to events. Like Tom, every event for me other then Wosca is a minimum 1 1/2 hours. I don't whine. Everytime I hear someone whine about the drive to London or across the frigging GTA it makes me cringe. Grow up bouys, you're drivers , so drive for petes sake. If the event is far away, take the wife or g/f and make a weekend of it like I did in Picton, consider it a mini getaway, I know my better half enjoyed it and shes not much for sitting out in the sun watching cars, but a nice dinner and hotel made her at least tolerate it.

Second. A regional championship should be just that, a regional championship with events from Windsor to London to Toronto to Picton to Ottawa to Peterborough to Northbay. Thats a regional Championship.

Third. A tremendous amount of time can be saved by preregistering for the series. I missed the solo reg day and had to wait to register at piction. Whats the problem with mailing in series registration forms? Along that line why do events not have you preregister and offer a $5 discount if your entry is in 7 days before the event. The more guys that pre register the faster the line goes, all the preregistered guys could already be in the computor, in fact maybe all series registered competitors should be given to organizers on a disc and have them preload that on thier computor to speed things up. Lets face it, most competitors will make it to at least 7 events.

Fourth. By doing #3 above start registration at 08:00 and cut it off at 9:30 sharp. Not registered, not running, too bad so sad. Get you azz out of bed early or preregister. This way you can get 5 runs in easy.

5. After many many years of running rallies and solo events in the 70's and early 80's I fail to see why we can't be more prepared.
BTW the Picton event was well organized other then the registration thing and HADA did an awesome job for thier first event. I missed Mosport due to a family committment and it sounds like I would have been as frustrated as most of you.

Look forward to seeing many of you making the long drive out to WOSCA for event #4.
:D

Tony

[tanney]

'm referring to negative prep points only being allowed in SP, whereas before they were allowed in SS. I realize that is an insignificant change for most (all?) serious Solo2 competitors, but even "stock" class rally cars have to have cages, seats, etc.

Did you actually read last year's rule book and then compare it with this years?

To the best of my knowledge that ONLY substanial change was the removal of the street tire bonus. I personally don't remember any changes to negative prep points for SS.

If you would like to quote the specific section.subsection from both 2002 and 2003 to back your words.......both are still on line.


All this "whining" about events.....I personally am not going to stoop so low on this forum to critizize what a poor job this or that club did or what a fantastic job this or that club did. I am not going to get into justification of entry fee vs. value, or distance. (oh I could and would sometimes like to pubically comment)

I love Solo 2, I think that most of the people involved in this sport are great people. Sure there are some "attitudes" that are putting unwanted politics in a sport where there is no room for politics.

Performance bonds may be one answer to "sub-standard" events. Awards for best run events may also be an answer. But both of those add more politics to the sport. The more politics, the less likely we are to attract new good people to the sport.

The regional series is just that, a regional series. If MCO or some CASC affiliated club from Thunder Bay (there is one, I just can't remember the name), or a new or old club from the GTA want to host a Regional event and they have the lot, equipment, manpower and knowledge to host a regional event that could have 120 competitors show up, than all the power to them for doing it.

If they don't have everything ready or silly amounts of competitors show up for an event, overwhelming the organizers, should we write the hosting club off? Definitely not!

I personally would like to see the Regionals go back to Ottawa! They are part of the region.

Is all this bitching and whining about it helping the sport.......most of what I am reading here.....Not a chance, it's hurting it.

I bet there are some people reading this right now are saying I would never go to an Ottawa event based on the comments by a FEW competitors. Well I have been to events in the GTA hosted by established clubs that I personally thought were pathetic....did I go back to another one of their events, you betcha. Have I stayed away from events based on one or two peoples whining, not a chance.....I love Solo 2.

So....let's try to focus on the positive and SEND YOUR NEGATIVE COMMENTS TO THE ORGANIZING CLUB DIRECTLY (cc'ing the Solo 2 Director with any comments that directly concern the Regioanl Series, of course).

Sorry I could only take so much of the whining!

[craig]

Did you actually read last year's rule book and then compare it with this years?

My apologies, I just looked at both versions online, and you are right. Sorry. I guess we (MCO) used the wrong version of the (printed) rules last year <sigh>.

Good thing I fired myself this year. :D

The regional series is just that, a regional series. If MCO .

I guess my rhetorical question would be - is this a series for regional events, or a series for regional competitors? It cannot be both with a large number of events, and remain a grassroots series. SCCA limits the number of divisionals for exactly this reason.

Craig
-MCO Chief Solo2 Scrutineer, 2002.

[rmicroys]

Originally posted by tanney
So....let's try to focus on the positive and SEND YOUR NEGATIVE COMMENTS TO THE ORGANIZING CLUB DIRECTLY (cc'ing the Solo 2 Director with any comments that directly concern the Regioanl Series, of course).

How about never having any negative comments and providing only constructive critisism? :D

[tanney]

How about never having any negative comments and providing only constructive critisism?

That would work too.

If the club organizer doesn't read this forum, how are they going to know that their club's event was great or a 'flop'. They won't know that people were dissatisfied.

I could go on for hours about how I like this and disliked that about certain events (regional or non-regional) and believe me that I have bit my tounge on numerous occasions because, as a club vp and an organizer I decided that keeping my mouth shut was ulitimately the best course of action.

On that note, I also wouldn't hesitate to voice my opinions privately to the person or club that I felt did or didn't do this or that right....but I also try to provide examples and my thoughts on how to improve things.

Of course, I am biased because I belong to the best club around (let the flaming begin). We did things, that in hind site, I would have done different. We made our club members that were non seires pay full price ($35) for our regional event THEN we made them marshall all day while the other competitors got to spend time with friends and family on father's day.

Oh well everybody has their own way of expressing their like and dislikes....

[Taylor]

- I spoke to Wes about the Gates
- I spoke to the Organizer about the Lunch Break
- I spoke to the Solo 2 Director about the Lunch Break

One section got adjusted.

The Organizer walked away from me.

and the director basically said it was out of his hands since he doesn't run the event (which I can appreciate).

[andrew1984]

its good to finally see some people voicing their ideas/complaints.

my main concern is the course layouts.

why must they be so tight? gates are supposed to be 15 foot spacing - and - they dont event meet that. but why stop there? why 15 feet? why not give people the opportunity to choose their own line? ( you get the point )

slalom is supposed to be 45 foot spacing. how often do you see this?


have you ever seen an autocross in the states? you could drive through with a mack truck.

i understand space is limited, but you'd be wrong by using this "excuse" for every lot.

[Marsh]

Originally posted by Tony Kloosterma
I've been reading this thread and pondered many times when to say something.
First off I hear way too many bitches on this board about driving to events. Like Tom, every event for me other then Wosca is a minimum 1 1/2 hours. I don't whine. Everytime I hear someone whine about the drive to London or across the frigging GTA it makes me cringe. Grow up bouys, you're drivers , so drive for petes sake. If the event is far away, take the wife or g/f and make a weekend of it like I did in Picton, consider it a mini getaway, I know my better half enjoyed it and shes not much for sitting out in the sun watching cars, but a nice dinner and hotel made her at least tolerate it.

Second. A regional championship should be just that, a regional championship with events from Windsor to London to Toronto to Picton to Ottawa to Peterborough to Northbay. Thats a regional Championship.

Third. A tremendous amount of time can be saved by preregistering for the series. I missed the solo reg day and had to wait to register at piction. Whats the problem with mailing in series registration forms? Along that line why do events not have you preregister and offer a $5 discount if your entry is in 7 days before the event. The more guys that pre register the faster the line goes, all the preregistered guys could already be in the computor, in fact maybe all series registered competitors should be given to organizers on a disc and have them preload that on thier computor to speed things up. Lets face it, most competitors will make it to at least 7 events.

Fourth. By doing #3 above start registration at 08:00 and cut it off at 9:30 sharp. Not registered, not running, too bad so sad. Get you azz out of bed early or preregister. This way you can get 5 runs in easy.

5. After many many years of running rallies and solo events in the 70's and early 80's I fail to see why we can't be more prepared.
BTW the Picton event was well organized other then the registration thing and HADA did an awesome job for thier first event. I missed Mosport due to a family committment and it sounds like I would have been as frustrated as most of you.

Look forward to seeing many of you making the long drive out to WOSCA for event #4.
:D

Tony

Well said Tony... Long drive, we have club members driving farther than most of the people on this board...

[ice/solo racer]

Hey I'd love to see the min. # of runs raised,but since there's only ever been one event that I only got 3 runs it isn't about what the rule says is a min.
If I was to know before hand that an event only intended to have 3 runs I simply wouldn't make the effort to attend.4 runs is the min I expect when I head out and any more than that is a bonus in my mind.
I like Wes and countless others are dedicated to this sport,for some its the people and other the frigging close competition,for me its all that and more.

How else could you explain the costs,time commitments etc?