ATTN SOLO 2 Organizers

[Tony Kloosterma]

This is a bitch post so those who aren't interested in my bitch can stop reading.

I looked at the solo 2 regulations and tried to find a definition of what/why we are competing.

On page 12 I find the following definitions:
1. Hazards must not exceed those encountered in legal highway driving
2. Course must be tight enough to run the entire course in lower gears (NOTE THIS IS IMPORTANT, IT DOESN"T SAY JUST FIRST GEAR)
3. Course should be designed to be open enough to allow good competition between large and small cars (THIS DOES NOT MEAN LARGE IS A HONDA CIVIC AND A SMALL CAR IS A MIATA)
4. It should not be a memory test.


Today was the 4th of the regional series, I have run 3 of them.
I heard the bitches about event 3, this course was no better.
I want to compete on a course that determines driver skill not how small the car is. I felt sorry for the guys in the cameros, firebirds and mustangs, at least i had half a chance to make it through the gates. The slalom could have been great, the offset gates made it a nightmare.


Guys, I plead with you to present us with courses that allow us to drive our cars to the best of our ability. If you continue to present us with courses that are so tight that we cannot get out of first gear, are continually hitting pylons, or are so damn short its not worth the wear and tear to come out for xxx$$$$ of entertainment you will lose a majority of competitors.

Todays event was well organized, it was well run, the price was right, the course left a lot to be desired. (I say that in all due respect as a member of the organizing club.)

I am tired of clubs both in the regional series and in club events trying to make solo2 events a competition to see who can get thier car throught he smallest hole.
Its time to make a change.

I am interested in hearing from the other hundred or so competitors who spend thier hard earned money on this sport.

Maybe we can change the direction of the layouts with some well spoken words.

Organizers take note, this is the third event in a row where it was so tight that second gear is not possible, it is the third event in a row that gates are designed for SMALL cars. You will lose competitors if you take away the fun of driving cars quickly on closed courses, today there were more cones hit then any of the other event i have been at this year. This is not fun. It is frustrating, plain and simple.

If I am totally out of line here I want someone to tell me.

Yours in the sport

Tony Kloosterman

[StewPiddass]

Makes me glad I drive a small car... but you're right, that's the first time I've actually used first. I don't know how you guys got through it, very carefully I guess.

[J.C.]

The funny thing is horse power modifications are penalized alot heavier then suspension mods. With tight tracks horse power can not be as efectively used and suspension and size is much more valueable. Why so tight.... I guess people just got used to making them tight, but back in the 80's and early 90's they were not like this.


P.S. I remember corvettes, mustangs, comaros, RX7s & CRX's all in the hunt for FTD. Now if you don't have a small car good luck.

[andrew1984]

tony, amen to that.


in regards to todays event :

i have alot of respect for wosca. they put on a great event and are all for the love of the sport.

today's course was tight, yes. i understand that it was done this way to accomodate the larger number of series competitors.

last weekend, their layout was GREAT imo. (much more fun)

so we have a problem.

either get great long runs with alot of fun and slow things down, or just the opposite.

maybe we should continue to compete later into the day? get more time for runs in, and make the courses bigger. sounds like a reasonable tradeoff, right?

it has to be feasible. its already been done.

P.S - im sure there are other possibilities to make things more enjoyable.


- Andrew
* Dare to be different *

[JoeT]

SoloOntario is supposed to cater to all makes all marques with equal opportunity for any car to compete. So far out of all 4 events, I can honestly say that Picton is the only club that tried to cater to the "General" population.

Here are a few points that made picton great:

1) High Speed Course (in the lower gears)
2) Technical Sections
3) Tight Sections
4) All in one track

Picton's course layout started with a really tight turn just out of the start box, then into a high speed section, then going back into some pretty tight chicanes, then into a couple of offset (really offset) chicanes before the stop box.

This track, niether catered to the small car, nor the HP cars. Cars with High HP and no handling did as well as smaller nimbler cars with great handling. It was a true test of driver skill, pushing the envelope of their cars. Not a case of trying to thread the needle and seeing how tight you can make a U turn at every opportunity.

I rarely bitch, because, I do really try to find something interesting at every event, Schoolgirl, Ed's niece (sorry Ed) LOL. But being that this is the 4th one attended and 3 out of 4 have catered to the smaller cars.. It's getting tedius.

Now if SoloOntario was called - SmallO-Ontario Series, then it would be self explanatory and we can choose to run or not.

SoloOntario should cater to the "General" population, giving all classes of cars equal opportunity beyond Pax Points (Pax becomes meaninless if it's a small car event). We understand that there are "Various" single make events... Like "Hada" or "MSOC", at least those are fairly clear and we can choose to run them or not.

Here's the plea:

I'm sure that Mustang, Camaro, and Trans-Am owners like to have fun with their cars too, so do I.

Can we please ask that the next few in the series be more open.. I too ran back in the day when the Sport was called "SoloSport". We have the opportunity to bring back those days, the lots are large enough, and there's enough representation from all marques. Let's compete for the sake of competition, not to see how large a vehicle we can squeeze through a 15ft offset entry box.

End Rant..

Thanks for reading.

BTW: WOSCA did a great job at organizing today's event. But I'm sure that there exists a 40 second course that's open enough for all cars. If Picton can do it, everyone can.

[Tony Kloosterma]

Andrew, last weeks course was perfect. It was open, had a couple of tricky sections and clocked in at 41-48 seconds.
In fact it was ideal. I for one would run later if we could get 5 runs on a course like that, today it would have meant going till 500 or 530. There was opportnity to start the second car earlier and we may have been able to cut that down to 430 -500. The other trade off is 4 runs. I am not aginst that if its 4 quality runs. make the course 50-60 seconds and you have it made.

BTW, I am still trying the clean the slobber out of the floor mats from the run you took with me:D MY lowly 4 dr family sedan subaru isn't that fast is it??????? ;)


Take Care

Tony

[andrew1984]

joe- you are my bitch. i mean, uhhh nooooo.. you rarely bitch!

haha jk! thanks for all the help today!

tony- you mean its a 4 door?? :eek:





;)

- Andrew

* Dare to be different *

[soloZ]

Thats kind of funny because my car is in second gear on every course I have EVER driven the only time I have had to change a gear was at the Picton event. I found the multi box fun becasue I was allmost as fast going on either side and I only hit cones because I was trying hard to go fast. If we wanted nice and open courses we could allways go and do solo1 , I enjoy the challenge of a different course everytime I go to an event I also won my class so how bad could it have been.

[Tony Kloosterma]

Ryan, No offense but solo 1 is not the answer to this situation

There is an ability to design open courses with in the confines of the lots that we use.
I have no interest in solo 1, but i do have an interest in competition that is fair to all competitors.

Yours in the sport

Tony

[soloZ]

Well I guess for the designer of the next events will have a crap shoot on there hands, either competiters will like them or not.

[miataboi]

Originally posted by J.C.
The funny thing is horse power modifications are penalized alot heavier then suspension mods. With tight tracks horse power can not be as efectively used and suspension and size is much more valueable. Why so tight.... I guess people just got used to making them tight, but back in the 80's and early 90's they were not like this.


P.S. I remember corvettes, mustangs, comaros, RX7s & CRX's all in the hunt for FTD. Now if you don't have a small car good luck.

in auto-x... handling and suspension IS more important than pure HP!

[miataboi]

A GOOD autocross car... is a good autocross car.

Small wheelbases have ALWAYS been good for autocross.

[miataboi]

if your big boat of a car can't make the gate... either slow down for it, toss-it in there, take an alternate / more appropriate line FOR YOUR CAR, upgrade your suspension or better learn to drive the car!

The course was FUN, fair, technical, etc. etc.

I have NO legit. complaints... ONLY nit-pick is that the course was SOOO dirty with pebbles, rocks and dust... But I won't go on about that here...


Subaru's did JUST FINE THANK YOU! Daniel was driving the wheels off... and Joe was really tossin' that saloon around!!!!

Miata's hit cones ALL DAY! SO DID CIVICS!!!!

It's all about being a tecnically proficient driver... going as fast as you can WITHOUT hitting cones.

I think the course was fair. The gates were fair... and the slalom was great fun.

Lastly:
There is room for constructive criticisims, honest critiques and even movements to affect change.... but most importantly...

If you want something changed.... CHANGE IT YOURSELF! Step up... host an event... lead the way..... design your own course... actions speak louder than words.... and participating and assisting speaks VOLUMES over bitching and whining.

p.s.
The kilt-chick / brittney wannabe was cool! :D

[miataboi]

Originally posted by Tony Kloosterma
Ryan, No offense but solo 1 is not the answer to this situation

There is an ability to design open courses with in the confines of the lots that we use.
I have no interest in solo 1, but i do have an interest in competition that is fair to all competitors.

Yours in the sport

Tony

...organize a japanese style gymkhana.
You subaru guys do well at those. ...and there's only like 5 pylons....
Let's get some diversity going on....

DO IT!!!!

[finboy]

the ontario regional series only happens because the local clubs are willing to host these events.

it almost died..... Barry Searle step'd into the picture.... and had a HUGE part in getting the series back in action.

i find it interesting to watch and see the newer blood bitch and complain about issues that shouldn't be an issue.

like any event, some will love it, some will hate it, why bitch about it after the events happens...

if the gates are too small, if things are not following rules or guide lines..

tell the organizers BEFORE THE EVENT.

Everyone walks the course before hand, and are smart enough to point out the tricky or difficult spots.. that's all part of the sport.

if you do not like the regional series, fine you can bitch about it, or better yet, step up from the cheap seats and organize an event yourself.

BMW club hosts events for themselves.. club members ONLY... if you think any of our courses are too short, or too tight get a bmw membership and run with them....

its way to easy for people to complain about things "for the good of the sport"... on these boards

talk is cheap, step up or shut up.

you guys praise and slam the organizing clubs in the same breath


and no i wasn't there, but its the same shit at every event..

even if the perfect event happened, you bitches would cry about something stupid anyhow

dave t

[Tony Kloosterma]

Interesting replies so far.

To set the record straight, I posted respectible times, (second in class,Ya I hit some cones and could have won my class and maybe been 5th overall or so) Thats not the point of the thread. Nor is it why I started this thread.

As for new guy, well I have been in motorsport since 1967 and did my share of organizing etc. after a 20 year hiatus from events I find that all events for the most part are now obstacle courses.

My point is that solo 2 events do not have to be so tight. I don't understand where this mind set comes from. Design courses that allow ALL cars to run to the best of thier ability, this includes gates long and wide enough for the larger cars, ie cameros, mustangs, firebirds,vettes. We have pax factors to even things up, I believe thats why they were designed.

As for whining and bitching, I guess I am allowed to voice my opinion, considering I paid my money as a competitor and as a regional series paid competitor. If competitors do not speak out things will never change. As for saying something before the event, I was helping at the registration table and did not get my walk through until a few minutes before the drivers briefing, not much point in asking for changes then. ( I guess that constitutes working an event, doing my part for the sport, yadda yadda.)

I hope the balance of the series will see some changes.

Yours in the sport

Tony

[JoeT]

Dave,

I did ask for a fair course, before the event, during the event as well. Yes we would love to host an event, but it takes 1 year before you can apply for CASC affiliation.

No worries. I've been doing this for 20 years as well.

[finboy]

i guess i'm surprised that tony bitched about this event after he posted this a couple of months ago.

here he gives the impression that its just a sport, put your pants back on and get over it kinda style guy

http://racing.kos.net/soloforums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1349&perpage=15&pagenumber=3

then on this thread you seem to jump on the whine and cheeze wagon.

what surprises me more is your a member of wosca doing registration, doing your part on the scene

and you get pissed at the guy (your own club brotha) for the tightass sections..

this should have been an internal bitchfest... no???

look forward to the corvette hosted regional, they are always open, but sometimes have tight ass sections too.

joe.. we've know your ass has been around for more than 20 plus years

and if you asked and you didn't receive.. then after a years time, you'll get to design the courses too

i'm sure everyone is looking forward when the subbie guys host an event as well..

no.... from what i've seen, it doesn't matter if you paid for the series or whatever... to bitch about anything in our weekend sports is useless.

its the same people organizing, getting involved all the time..

very rarely is there new blood getting involved and giving a lending hand.

in otherwords... in order to make changes... get involved and make the changes, holding your breath till your blue is useless.

and lots aren't as easy to get as in the past.. soon as sunday shoping started, it killed the nicer venues.

this sport, and board has been around for a while

i don't know if its just me or what.. but just recently all its been used for is to bitch about something...

it never used to be like this


:confused:

[Tony Kloosterma]

I think you misunderstand.
I wasn't slamming the WOSCA event in particular, I was commenting that all events lately seem to be so tight and narrow and I don't understand the reasoning for this.

My point in that other thread was in regard to which lane was faster, not the tightness of the course. I think everyone realizes that its very difficult to mirror 2 lanes.

I knew when I started this post that it would be controversial, I am surprised by the attacks and the fact that I am essentially being told to shut my mouth.

As a renewed participant to the motorsport scene, I didn't realize that I was not allowed to voice opinions that may better the sport.

I would respectfully ask the administrator of the board to remove this entire thread. My most sincere apologies for obviously upsetting the core group in this sport.

Sincerely

Still yours in the sport.

Tony Kloosterman

[Alf]

I had to become member of this board just for this... I did plan my week in Toronto specialy because of a solo2 event not because of a slowlo too event...

I remember last year in Ottawa everyone from Toronto was bitching about Ottawa course been too small and to tight, you know what, I guest if you guys stop to come in Ottawa for that reason... I guest you should stop WOSCA too. Everyone should enjoy Solo2, not just 10 peoples out off a 100... Since Ottawa has made the turn to the Corel center, now there is space for everyone, the turn out of the event is a lot better. No body bitch anymore, there is room for everyone but this weekend they only room for Miata and few Honda. The way it is right now with pax and those type a course, get yourself a B3 Hyunday accent with sticky and you'll win everything, everyone should be able to get there 15 minutes of glory not just few guys...

Sorry for my bitching it was a really well organise event, just too tight.

[Taylor]

Dave: Look at the subject for this thread. I'm with Tony in a call out to organizers to alert them that people for the most part are not ecstatic with the # of tight courses we've seen so far this year. The WOSCA lot is quite large, and that first offset gate appeared to be a legal 15 feet but head on from the start it was like 3 feet wide. Just because the rule book says something like "must be at least 15 feet" why not make it a little wider?! Making the gates as narrow as possible just caters to the smaller cars, which means while it may flow well for a Miata, it's a gas'n'jerk for 3500lb 4 doors. Normally I love a course where I never have to get out of 1st because it's often an advantage as others have to shift, but everyone I talked to about the course yesterday said they wern't even close to 2nd, and I think that may be a first since I've been in the sport...3 years.

Also with a more flowing course people still will drive it to the edge and will still hit cones but at least it's more enjoyable on the whole. I agree, threading a needle shouldn't be the name of the game and the last 2 courses have definately felt like that in a couple spots. I understand under the current structure we need to keep laptimes down a bit to cater to the large number turnout but that should be all the more reason to have a wide open course rather than a shorter tight one.

Lets be fair that Picton was in an airfield. And here's the thing, the next event is the Corvette event, and it's going to be open to begin with, that is the kind of course design they do. Then two more at the brampton lot where I've yet to see an annoying design at, though frankly Event #2's did have a narrow gap in FTD amungst the classes as well... I've never been to the Kart track but I'm hoping its Shootout-like... And the Douro Arena lot is pretty small, but felt the club did a great job with layout last year considering what they have to work work, I'm sure the Z06 in my class I beat by 2 seconds didn't feel the same way though and it's situations like that that may be attributing to the fact that I've had an empty class 2 of 3 events. Open it up and maybe more of these "Super Car"s will come out to the events.

I know yesterday's course had a couple pretty tight spots but considering what a drastic improvement the event was over Event #3, I'm thankful for it. I'm also pretty sure a numbr of people voiced their opinions to Marshall early on as it was only about 15-20 cars in when Marshall pointed out Paul K going out on the course for the first time and saying "He's the only one that told me they liked the course". Paul had cones in 4 of 5 runs!

But course designers, pleeeease, consider that 15 ft gates maybe should only be for ones you pass straight through! If you want to keep the course time down, open the design up. The best thing about most COMP events is they put say 1 cone up for a turn, you know the next gate is 140 degrees from where you are now, so you get to setup the car ideally to get around that cone, but you are open as to the approach you can take which really aids flow, and this is very important if the second gate ahead of you is -50 degrees from the next gate. Their designs really seem to reward skill, not just Horsepower.

Flow is king... it's easier on the car, easier on the marshalls and more fun for the driver. And ultimately I'm in this for the fun, not for finding every advantage possible to win. Though frankly, PAX is putting more of a damper on my Regional season than course designs. This underfilled class $#!t is driving me nuts. 3rd quickest time yesterday, 6 thousands from 2nd quickest, and I almost didn't get full points because a stock miata (which actually started having me think in "rules mode"..ugh) in a full class was able to get within a second and a bit of FTD, in fact propositioning ASS. Of course I think design could be attributed to it...If the course was more open, no way would that have happened, as it shouldn't. Paul in ASP would have to have had FTD by a couple tenths over MOD cars to have gotten full points in his underfilled class. It just really wasn't possible (or rather extremely difficult) with the design. He was doomed from the start.

Still... I enjoyed yesterdays event, it was just that one chunk in the middle of the course that you had to go through twice that was a bother, the rest was quick(er). Nothing like Event 3.

Anyhow, I would like to see more SCCA and less BMW Club.

[Taylor]

Alf: I hear you but should point something out...

Of the people driving production vehicles yesterday...

- Patrick in the Civic
- Myself in the S2000
- Hanif in the Civic
- usually Paul in the Miata, but he had a cone day

Regardless of course design, we are often at the top of the list. This includes Competition Corvette Club events which are far more open and faster than the other events.

Steve Tong last year in a Miata ALMOST had production car FTD at the Canadian Nationals which were held on an airbase in PEI with a 90 second course designed by an SCCA National Course designer.

Miata's are really are an ideal Solo 2 car, regardless of course design, HOWEVER, the tighter the design, the larger the gap is.

This is a Canada thing, SCCA courses are much larger, they get closer to Solo 1 speeds where HP comes more into play and the class divsion is actually a division. The Competition Corvette Club has the best lot right now (though I would suspect Corel Centre would be a pretty sweet lot) and Miata's can still rule the roost there.

My concern is when STOCK Miata's are getting better times than Modified Miata's. Oh and when these guys are all beating Lotus Super 7's. :)

[miataboi]

Originally posted by Taylor


My concern is when STOCK Miata's are getting better times than Modified Miata's. Oh and when these guys are all beating Lotus Super 7's. :)

The modified Miatas had a BAD DAY.

That should not be a reason to change things around.
I repeat... A.S.S. class was ASS!
Trust me.

The course was good... stop bitching about PAX.
It seems that ONE GUY in A-Stock had a REALLY good run. The course WAS getting considerably faster as the day progressed... He is a good driver... we shouldn't entertain thoughts of overhauling the course and all courses in the future because you ALMOST didn't make pax! Sorry it wasn't an absolute walk-away for you and that you had to drive fast to win.


:rolleyes:

[Taylor]

Watson: PAX is a constant number where all courses are not constant. ASC (a stock car class) is paxed over ASS (a non-stock class), the shorter and tighter the course the more difficult PAX makes it. I can't use a power advantage on a tight course.

PAX is also used in the rain, which is not kosher.

I was 1 tenth from FTD with the MOD cars, MOD. I have a stock car. If I was 2 tenths off FTD, I wouldn't have gotten 100 points. Does that seem right to you?

Meanwhile it looks like 80% of the competitors are in B family.

My point is, these are bigger problems for a championship series than course designs that individual clubs may have. While I haven't studied the CNAC rules, I hope theres no PAX in them.

I just got lucky yesterday, that's all. I got lucky at Event #3 too because the organizers didn't get some people to fill out both forms thereby lowering my target.

The bigger/faster the course, the bigger my gap, and therefore the more difficult it will be to loose via PAX.

PAX is a problem for me, not for you. You have a full class.

[miataboi]

Originally posted by Taylor
PAX is a constant number where all courses are not constant. ASC (a stock car class) is paxed over ASS (a non-stock class), the shorter and tighter the course the more difficult PAX makes it. I can't use a power advantage on a tight course.


I was 1 tenth from FTD with the MOD cars, MOD. I have a stock car. If I was 2 tenths off FTD, I wouldn't have gotten 100 points. Does that seem right to you?


The bigger/faster the course, the bigger my gap, and therefore the more difficult it will be to loose via PAX.

PAX is a problem for me, not for you. You have a full class.

This is getting off-track...
Anyhow... your car has 240 hp and a 9000 rpm redline... it is small and the course worked to the advantages of your car... is that a problem for you?

Your problem lies with PAX and the fact that you don't have a full class.

If I were you... I'd get my buddies in s2000's to come out and play with you.
You are NOT going to change PAX mid-year. Either play within the rules... or don't play... ensure a "full" class or don't complain about it... themz 'da rulez!

[Taylor]

Never expected to change PAX mid year. Just as I don't expect a course design to change the morning competitors get to see it and complain about it then.

Hence the whole point of the thread. It's a plea to the future designers to stop making tight courses.

Yes I know those are the rules. I'm lobbying for a change (for the future). As I said, this is more important to me than course design (in a regional series). At Corvette Events, the classification isn't even a thought.

BTW, I know people who've dropped out of series (or events) due to underfilled classes. I don't plan to be one, but it's a weakness in the system that is effecting the series as a whole.

Anyhow just because I won my class, beat PAX, and turned in a good time doesn't mean I can't speak against the trend of course design. I'm not a "Well it didn't cause me a problem, so it's not a problem" kind of guy. I'm rational, and rationality tells me that this is a problem for other people because I see them saying it is, I understand the problem and though it doesn't affect me this time, I'm willing to side with them for a change. Look at it this way, I can't get pregnant, but that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on abortion and support one side or the other. Besides, I would benefit from a more open layout too and the tight part of the course didn't bite me. *I* didn't mind the course once I got to drive it, but I knew it was tight.

For the record: I enjoyed myself yesterday. Though, I also heard from many who didn't fully. As Alf is trying to point out, why can't the course design be enjoyable for the vast marjority instead of the minority?

[Taylor]

Can anybody, with a straight face, say they don't like the Competition Corvette Club course designs?

So the response then could be "Do Corvette events, not ours." Good point, bad attitude, and beside the point...

I understand that Regionals is supposed to be a "sampling" of the different clubs events, but WOSCA admitted before the event it would be tighter than usual. Everyone is saying the layout last week was much better, great in fact.

So what does this tell us? That regional events are getting shafted course designs (they wouldn't otherwise do) so that clubs can better pump through the competitor numbers?! So instead of sampling the other clubs "BEST" events, we could end up getting their worst because they're not prepared for the competitor count, either via registration, general execution or course design?

And it's not like you have to have Bronte Go Station for a great layout. I thought the Hershey Centre events ones went great last year (MSOC and TAC's double header). It was a short (mid 30 seconds or so I think) course, we had the highest competitor turn out for each day and we used the whole lot. The second day was that course in reverse. I never heard a complaint about that course.

Once again, I'm not knocking WOSCA, I'm knocking the trend.

[Alf]

Taylor: Just to put something in your last post... When a club organise a event they should used a course that been used before to make sure of the quality of the track and flow of it. ie last year, St-Lac did organise a event for the Subaru 3-club meeting, we had almost the same track that was used for the regional. Why? That way they knew the course and it's flow, I still think it was one of the best event I've done over 3 years now.

[tanney]

When a club organise a event they should used a course that been used before to make sure of the quality of the track and flow of it.

That then means that the competitors that ran the "warm-up" event have a SERIOUS advantage. That why competitors are not allowed runs before competition starts. They then know the course, what to do, what not to do, where to go and where to stay away from. That is not fair to the rest of the competitors, now is it?

I should have set up HADA's course on Saturday and did 15 runs in advance, then I may have kicked Tom's ass!

[andrew1984]

bottom line ...


every track is a miata track.

being tight does NOT make it fun.

being tight minimizes your choice of racing lines.

yesterdays course was much better then the previous events (no offense). it could have been wider through the death box, and IMO the slaloms should have not been so off centered (because this makes it tighter and adds advangtage to smaller cars.)

AND this is coming from a guy who drives a 3000 lb, two door, 60 inch tall, 100" wheelbase slug. i mean.. bug.

wosca is one of the few clubs who are in the right direction with course layout.

i would like to see marshall chime in on this.

was the course not tightened/shortened to accomodate the larger number of drivers?

if layouts were larger, times would be shorter. we could have much more fun, and many more runs.

just look at TLMC. we just about always get 8 runs there.

its a gigantic lot, yet they manage to keep things between 40-60 seconds.

- Andrew

* Dare to be different *

[slick]

Very interesting thread, so had to chime in.

My take on it is that if the course is within the rules (read legal) then all bets are off. I think bringing the item "up for discussion" is not a bad thing, as long as it's not a bitch-fest. If we want to change the "design trend", then it's up to someone to get involved and help implement those changes or a new way of thinking for upcoming events.

Having run many Solo2's in a Miata, I can tell you that I enjoyed all course types, not just the tight courses. But then again, it's subjective depending who you talk to, everyone has their opinion. Miata's and smaller cars have a distinct advantage in size, weight and suspension design.

Now that the Miata is gone and have moved "down" to a Volvo wagon, I can tell you that the tight courses will be more of a challenge that the long flowing ones, but I still like all of them. And really, it doesn't make any difference because that's what I have to deal with when I decide to go play.

As for the whole paxing issue, that really just tells me that modded Miatas were having an off day, while the driver of the stock Miata was on his game. It's 90% driving, 10% car right?

And Alf, as for the Accent getting placed 1st at the last MCO event, he deserved it as he drove the wheels off that thing. Even "I" ended up beating about 20 competitors out of 50 at the last 2 events, and I'm running a bone stock Volvo on crappy all-seasons. It's all about the drive man!

Back in Solo2, soon back in Solo1!



Cheers,

[Marsh]

Originally posted by JoeT
SoloOntario is supposed to cater to all makes all marques with equal opportunity for any car to compete. So far out of all 4 events, I can honestly say that Picton is the only club that tried to cater to the "General" population.


No it didn't. Picton was specifically design by Mark as a power course to penalize low powered cars and it was a great success. A common misconception is that open courses favour power courses and they don't. Picton combined ludicrusly tight corners (that did not meet the rule book BTW), followed by long straights. Everybody has to slow to a crawl for the corners, then the high power cars win all the drag races. I hated Picton was far and away the worst course yet this year. I thought Mosport was better.

BTW I drive a 3000lb car with 102in wheel base and I stayed cone free at WOSCA. Yet several civic drivers couldn't. The problem with the course was not the that it fit small cars. The problem was you had to slow down and take the course with higher yaw rates. I intentionally designed it that way, but nobody else picked up on it. I take full responsibility for designing a course that was very unpopular and I appologize, but don't tell me it was made to favour small cars because it wasn't. It was made to favour cars that rotate, and I've driven lots of big cars that can be rotated in the right hands.

[andrew1984]

its funny because.. yesterday i only hit cones on one run ( to memory ). but last weekend, when it was much wider- i took out so many that i even broke off my liscense plate!!! ( i got a video of those runs coming soon )

:D

- Andrew

* Dare to be different *

[Taylor]

If I (or whomever) just posted

"I didn't like the course"

Someone will ask "why?"

When the answer is given, it's whining, or complaining.

How about I just go around and say "I don't like the rules"

But when someone asks I'll just say "You know, I could tell you but then I'd be whining, so I'll just let you figure it out for yourself because I wouldn't want to be whining."

As if complaining is somehow a BAD thing...

If we all just conformed and delt with everything would half the world still be under british rule? We'd probably have a flipping dictator running the country.

How can anything ever improve without criticism? I agree no one really likes to hear it, but it does help make changes happen. Sometimes it's warranted and other times it's nit-picking. Nit Picking is complaining that a paid lunch didn't come till 1:30, that you didn't get fun runs, or that an entry fee went up $5. But since course design is integral to the enjoyment of the event since we're there to drive the damned thing, I think it's something that warrants commenting on.

Now if I'm the only guy that has a problem with PAX, then you don't change it (you know, like when I asked for 2 seaters to be legally able to take out their passenger seat to facilitiate the transportation of tires). Why change the whole system because 1 guy has a problem with it?

Coincidentally enough the CNAC rules it looks like will be adopted ALLOW me to do that in stock class. :/

As for someone implementing this request for change... I don't think it'd so bad that someone be in charge of quality assurance for regional events, but there is a politics issue in that Regional Solo 2 is not run like Regional Solo 1. Authority is given to the clubs rather than the series. I can appreciate why but quality assurance in the series can only be assured by a representative of the series.

Not sure how that gets done. Anyhow that is a PROJECT that people may have no interest in starting right now. But a request for more open courses is something that can a competitor can ask for in seconds and sit in the back of the designers mind.

[Taylor]

Marshall: The problem may ultimately very well lay in the rule book. I don't know the makeup of BSS too well but I would expect there's a close Power to Weight ratio there, therefore if the course catered to cars with horsepower than that's GREAT because there's a reason why the S2000 is in ASC and the Prelude (another GREAT handling vehicle) is in a whole other family and it should be because on a higher speed course, I should be substantially ahead of a car that bases lower. Not barely, substantially. Now if you have great differences in power to weight in base classes then a fast course causes a big divide in the class, and that's not cool.

But as far as I know and am concerned, if FTD in BSS is 5 seconds off from overall FTD, GREAT, it should be. A good driver in an A Mod car should be FTD all the time, then B Mod, then C Mod. And so on and so forth.

I think this design allowed this expected trend, but the times were very close. PAX says Paul in ASP needed to be 4 tenths quicker than I. In reality we were just as quick. My car? Stock, his car... umm.. not stock :) A Corvette wouldn't have had a hope or a prayer yesterday.

But when the course is tight and the Power to Weight can not be taken advantage of (too much) then you have a case like mine, where an A1 car (two PAX classes down) almost made my target unattainable. On a faster course, the gap should have been bigger. I was 6 thousands from Pat Yorke for corn sake and was only 7 hundreths from that PAX target. Seriously tight and it just shouldn't be that way. So if PAX has to exist, I prefer it exist where course design is more open.

My biggest beef with the Mosport course was that it totally limited the skill aspect. The gates and curb really limited the number of approaches you could make. As Andrew is saying, it limits the lines. And that should be a big part of the skill of AutoX. There were no lines to observe because no one could have a different line. It was challenging because they were tight, not because you had to think and and strategize. The only thing I had to think about yesterday was whether going left or right the second time around the middle was the right thing to do, everything else was chosen for me. I personally like the added dimension of figuring out a line.

I was surprised to find the course yesterday was not as tight as it seemed while walking it, but it still seemed to have deliberately tricky parts which I guess I just don't understand the intention of...

[Tony Kloosterma]

Would you all please note that this thread was meant to ask organizors of events to reconsdider the tightness of all the events and to consider courses that were maybe a bit more open but would still demand some driver skill.

Marsh, The course on the whole wasn't bad and a lot of people are misinterpeting my post to be a bash the wosca event post, that is not the case, its a case of all events following a certain trend, one that in my humble opinion needs adjusting.

Its obvious that I have upset the core of the solo 2 circuit. Again I apologize for having said something that obviously I know nothing about.

I am sorry I brought the whole thing up. I'll go stand in the cornor now.:(

Tony

[Taylor]

Yeah sorry for bringing complaining about PAX into it, I was just trying to find a more commonly accepted justification for why course design doesn't just effect fun level but also has an effect on the results.

[Marsh]

I'm not saying individual arguments aren't valid, I'm just saying that I don't think the course favoured small cars.

BTW Taylor I don't take your complaints about pax seriously at all because... :rolleyes:
WOSCA scoring for the regional event: http://www.wosca.com/Event_Results/2003-Regional-Results.htm

Actually WOSCA's ASC pax is wrong, it's slower than ASS. We need to revise it.

these have no bearing on the regional results, just posted for fun.

[Tony Kloosterma]

Just looked at the results.
85 competitors 5 runs is a total of 425 runs.

57 off course runs
118 individual runs that got at least 1 cone. (The marshalls were very very busy)

Therego the whole point of this thread, design courses that flow, the competitors will enjoy them a lot more, Marshalling and scoring a lot easier.

I'll go back to my cornor now.

:rolleyes:

Tony

[Taylor]

But of course I'm the quickest, I have a stock car and was within tenths of a B Mod car. :)

But my concern is how PAX effects me in an underfilled class, as you can see Ben there he was making things scary. Not sure what he needed to drop on his last run but he moved my target within something like 7 hundreths.

I just don't like the fact that the design of a course can narrow the class FTD gap and thereby make things very difficult (or impossible) to score full points for when if my class were full, I'd otherwise win it. (I seriously need some competition, I keep trying to get the S2K guys to do more events and buy R's but they addiction isn't strong enough in them) :)

Now if it wern't a championship series, I wouldn't care because hey, I ALMOST got FTD. I was in good company. (Told you all it was my tires, yeesh... plus I still have the fact that they're 3 years old to back me up when someone does manage to edge me out. pththththth :P

[Taylor]

Wow, that's a whole lotta off courses. It was a pretty simple course to follow.. not sure what that's about...

But only 1/4 were cone runs? I coned in 3 of 5... that's basically unheard of for me. Bah, I think 40% of Event 3 were and 2 years ago at Slemon (PEI event where Nationals were last year) over half, yes HALF the runs on day one were OFF COURSE. Too many people had an all off-course day. Yikes!

Talk about bad design. Oddly enough when Terry wrote the article on that, he got a lot of flack...maybe it had something to do with complaining they had no butter for the corn on the cob. Like seriously? What's that about? Everyone knows you need butter for Corn on the Cob. :P

BTW: Can I stick an steering wheel in the "Overall" row on my confirmed kills tally plate because I got it with PAX or wha? :) Hope that was my intention because otherwise WTH is the difference between FTD and Overall? (duh)

Wow, Steve had a 33.4 eh? Sick. Nice to see he's getting into the groove with the car. You go slalomhead!

[Nissan Racer]

Great course Marsh! I had a great time (even in my 4 door sedan) I though it was challenging, and definitly rewarded 'rotation' :)

[Marsh]

Originally posted by Taylor
BTW: Can I stick an steering wheel in the "Overall" row on my confirmed kills tally plate because I got it with PAX or wha? :)


I would...

Tony, I agree with you. I was ignoring complaints that were simply "it's all too tight". If anyone had some comments about a certain corner I would listen, but you've seen that of me at club events.

But the cones and OC do speak for them selves. Obviously I did't do a great job. It should be around 10 - 15% cone runs and 5% or less OC, with no OC after the 2nd run (except stop box violations, which were minimal).

[J.C.]

Originally posted by miataboi
in auto-x... handling and suspension IS more important than pure HP!

I never said the contrary, but now handling and vehicle SIZE are alot more important than they used to be.

[Chris P]

Tony, come out of your corner!

This has been a major concern of mine for a few seasons, i was actually ready to start a post about this very issue however tony beat me to it.

One of the man reason's i elected not to run SOLO 2 this season is because i feel alot of the skill has been taken out of the sport. Courses are narrow and do not allow people to pick and debate lines to the extent that should be present. Driving from one gate to the next is not the type of AutoX i want put in my effort, money and time into. This is taking the challange and the fun out of S2 and John feels the same way.

Ok, so i have one of the smallest cars around, the current state of courses should be great for me........right??? :rolleyes:

It is very possible to make a good SCCA style course on our lots and accomendate this new found popularity that Regional SOLO 2 has seen. Our courses need to be alot wider with less of these silly lane change things. Wider, faster and since we deal with relatively small lots in ontario 2 laps may be needed. Also in alot of events i've found that no slalom's were present. Wierd, i thought this was called autoslalom?? The ideal course would seen the ASP drivers in the 30-35sec range, maybe less. If courses are getting too short then add a 2nd lap. Also, our courses use a outstanding number of cones, on most courses half of these could be taken out.

I'm not sure if any of you have competed in or watch video of national, division, or even regional level SCCA events. Its very different!! Everything seems to flow well, the courses are wide and allow the drivers to choose a line. Cars still use 1st gear but not nearly as long.

Re PAX, i gotta agree with taylor. Our courses are not catering to the current set of rules given. A course should give a spread inbetween the classes and reduce the amount of overlap present. Also, perhaps the PAX values need to be reevaluated. In SCCA they are changed almost yearly depending on the results from the Nationals.

And guess what, i even included a video of a SCCA event.

http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/albums/Krispy/aei.wmv

That would be a PROSOLO course. I know in ontario we don't have the lots needed to create 2 identical courses like that however 1 should be very possible.

To sum up, how can this problem be fixed?
Well, as compeditors we need to let the organizers know that other options are present. Alot of the current orgs. are fairly fresh blood and have only really been exposed to this type of course design which is why it has become a trend in ontario.


There was one course i really liked last season, it was the PITTL regional event and i believe Derek(red 2nd gen RX7) created the course. It seemed to flow well although still with too many cones. Anyway, that was a fun course! I did a fun run with Wes and i remember him using a different line through one of the fast back courners that seemed to work well, i just wish i had another run so i could try and do the same. Not sure it would have worked with my car but it would have been fun to try. :p


As for the COMP courses. The lot is amazing and the courses are usually very good allthough they seem to get a bunch of these pin turns that break everything up. Not sure why it happens? Perhaps its fun to toss a vette around them? :confused:



Thanks for your time.

[Chris P]

PS, Taylor, i think you should listin to Dave and get some other drivers in your S2000 to make a full class. I'm here for you bud :D

[Tony Kloosterma]

Marsh, absolutely I know at the club event a couple weeks back we talked over a certain area and you saw fit to make a change.

I didn't get out on the course early enough yesterday.

I don't think you did a poor job organizing and I want to be on record that the event itself ran very smoothly, we got the majority of competitors through registration in under 45 minutes, after that it was the stragglers, everything else went very very well.

the first gate and the offset slalom were the bug a boos yesterday, the cornor I initially thought to be the hardest was inconsequential as it turned out..

But again my thread is not about this one event. It is about the general direction of the courses overall.

I just watched the video in Chris's post, thats really wide open, maybe even too much for me but hey it would be a nice change, it allows you to pick some lines and it will seperate the cars because handling looks to be important there as well.

My purpose in the thread was to get people to start thinking differently or at least ask for thier opinions on what they want.

Looks like there are many many opinions. Thats what makes the world go round.

Tony

[miataboi]

I can see it now...

...a course gets designed that has some great wide openness to it with great flow and a nice widely spaced slalom... that requires great timing and rhythm...

...next thing you know...
All the white guys are complaining that they're unfairly disadvantaged!!! :eek:



:D :p ;)

[Tony Kloosterma]

Miataboi, you need to get off that tune.
Have we met?

My post is my opinion, You obviously disagree. Thats fine, but get off the whining kick, I am asking for opinions on the course designs, if you would like to add serious commentary its welcome.

Thanks

Tony

[Nissan Racer]

Oh com'mon...that was funny

[roooo]

I would love to have some courses that give a chance to find and choose the lines around a course. Just gotta echo that sentiment.

I think Marsh's course was fun but a little more frustrating than maybe it needed to be. Regardless, I had a hard time finding speed which is my fault not the course.

A trend towards more open courses that take a bit of reading and experimentation would be great.

Thanks for your time. :D

[miataboi]

Originally posted by Tony Kloosterma
Miataboi, you need to get off that tune.
Have we met?

My post is my opinion, You obviously disagree. Thats fine, but get off the whining kick, I am asking for opinions on the course designs, if you would like to add serious commentary its welcome.

Thanks

Tony

dude... I was joking.

</sense-of-humour>

In all seriousness... (and yes... some of us take this TOO seriously...)

re-evaluating PAX should NOT be done based on Ontario Regionals scoring at year end. We have only a FEW U.S. national-calibre drivers in Ontario. - REALLY! Looking at paxing vs. SCCA nationals is one decent option... given that our rules / classes will be closely aligned via CNAC classing, etc. ...but this in not a pax'ing thread...

Re: course design...
The COMP courses have in the past occasionally had pin-turns that make it into more of a point-and-shoot type of course. GREAT for low-end torque type cars... :D

Not the most fun to drive... personally...


But you know what...
I was at an event once... and I commented that I didn't like the course setup...

A buddy of mine pointed out that it doesn't matter... you just have to get around it as fast as possible! TRUE 'DAT! And you know what... he beat my ass! PARTIALLY because I was thinking about the poor course setup... and not about how to finish the course in the least amount of time!

...so to Slick's point... if the course is legal... "all bets are off"

Simple as that.

If you don't like it... don't show up. If you really don't like it... make your own! Everything in this world does not have to be a consensus. (and as you can see... re: course design... it's IMPOSSIBLE!)

I am not against opening it up... or leaving it like the last event... either way... I'll do my best to be as fast as I can be! If I had a car that didn't lend itself to a particular line... I wouldn't take that particualar line... certain cars have to be driven in certain ways... in order to be fast... look at Joe!! What a driver... and he HAS to drive THAT car THAT way to be fast. ...and he is!

If you want to drive a bigger car that doesn't corner GREAT... ADAPT. YOU ARE CLASSED WITH EQUAL CARS!!! Doesn't anyone have a problem with their car's classification??? If not... what's this whole thread about? You are classed appropriately... the classes have cars so close to eachother... that many classes are UNDER-POPULATED!!!

The whole autocross claim to fame is that you approach corners 4x as often as a formula 1 driver! HENCE... lightweight and good-handlers will be advantaged! OBVIOUSLY a small-wheelbased car is better than a big-azz one... no?

a 5.0 convertable... is NOT A "GOOD" AUTOCROSS CAR!!!! (neither is a beetle... but damn... that blowtorch can MOVE!)

Follow the rules... and I'll run the course. If it's a really BAD course design... I might mention it to the organizers, to let them know.. and I might not run the event next year...

Gimme a legal course... and I'll see if I can get around it at a decent pace... maybe I can... maybe I can't... BUT... I DO KNOW that a variety of courses (and cars... and conditions... and pressure situations... etc.) WILL make you a better driver.

...and besides fun... that should be ANOTHER reason to do this stuff - driver improvement.

This is really a no-win argument. Follow the course design rules... and let's have some good variety... I like slaloms, lane-changes, sweepers, technical sections... straight-aways etc. My ideal course would HAVE ALL OF THESE ELEMENTS reflected in it's design... then you'd get the best car / driver combo coming to the top!

THIS SPORT IS FUN!

[andrew1984]

*sniff* ... i feel so loved.. ;)

[Brent]

I agree with Tony.

My point
What if all clubs changed their course design to a shorter tighter design when holding a regional event than when holding a club event.

Stop bitching and whining about the complaining. If people who complained listened to the people who bitched and whined about their complaining we would still be wearing loin clothes and following a herd listening to "You've got a loin cloth and fire, stop your bitching". It is the same guys bitching and whining everytime someone complains.

[miataboi]

Originally posted by Brent

My point
What if all clubs changed their course design to a shorter tighter design when holding a regional event than when holding a club event.

100% agree... That wouldn't make sense... the regionals are not INTENDED to be "tighter" than the other series in Ontario...

This "what-if" however, hasn't happened... only for the LAST event is that statement true... and from my understanding it was only a bit tighter than the week before... 1 data point is NOT a trend.

Oshawa... well... that was an anomoly for the series... and a trend for the club / venue.

Originally posted by Brent

Stop bitching and whining about the complaining. If people who complained listened to the people who bitched and whined about their complaining we would still be wearing loin clothes and following a herd listening to "You've got a loin cloth and fire, stop your bitching". It is the same guys bitching and whining everytime someone complains.

AWESOME!!!! :D ;p

If people bitch and complain... and the people who disagree stay quiet... for fear of disagreement... it appears that everyone feels the same way... this is not the case.

My point has been made... I'll shut up. But remember... I can take it as good as I give it... and I have a sense of humour.... so bring it!

:D

P.S.
Don't be afraid to send me a PM and tell me I'm an idiot... or that I suck... or that you disagree with me and that I'm an ass! :p

P.P.S.
I'd like to see this grow into a community... with friendly rivalries and jabs... not a kvetching session.
Call Oprah...
...save the drama fo' yo' momma;

[andrew1984]

fine, ill bring it... :o


let me be the first to say.... you suck and you drive a girlie girls car!!! :D

[Nissan Racer]

Hmmm...lets see...who's car came with a flower vase? :D

I'd like to bitch about the guys complaining about the people whining...I think its totally unfair to bitch at the whiners for complaining. Its only right that the complainers get to whine without being bitched at.....

[Chris P]

Perhaps some people are afraid to run on a "real" course?

Miataboi, my point is. Would you prefer to drive on a course like the HADA Event 2 or the one in the vid i posted??? I'm pretty sure you'll say the one in the vid. However i do agree variety IS GOOD SO LETS SEE SOME!!! Sure, you'll run whatever is thrown at you but that doesn't make it right.

PS, I only mention the HADA course since it was the only SOLO 2 i've attended in 2003.


"If you want to drive a bigger car that doesn't corner GREAT... ADAPT. YOU ARE CLASSED WITH EQUAL CARS!!! "

How can you say this is true? Perhaps you need to reexamine the rule book. Anyway, all classifications issues are a mute points since CNAC is the future for ontario. Lets not even start here.

[ice/solo racer]

Tony-are you still in the corner?

Now you know how I feel-can't post without someone thinking your whining or bitching.

Honestly its the reason I made a phone call and made a deal on another car to try road race,I know there will be whiners there too but it'll be a different group of whiners!.

Taylor I'm with you,if concerns/comments aren't made how the hell do clubs/organiser's know when the people that are paying to be there feel some things needed to be rethought out.And if its done by 1 guy contacting the people involved and not using the public forum will the club take 1 guys comments seriously-not likely.
My point is I hate being told what I can and can't post about,free country and all ya know.Case in point I e-mailed the contact for the next regional and suggested that 1 onsite biffy would be very welcome.Last year My wife and I drove 3 hours to arrive and find no washrooms,and no time to leave the site with registration,car prep,2 drivers,a 2 year old and marshelling duties-end result was an entire day with no washroom which is completly inhuman.
I have yet to receive a reply.

[andrew1984]

Originally posted by Nissan Racer
Hmmm...lets see...who's car came with a flower vase? :D




aaahhhhhh... it is true. so true.

well, at least my bump stop riding, flower powered, girlie girl car can whoop some ass! :D

[soloZ]

Originally posted by Nissan Racer
Hmmm...lets see...who's car came with a flower vase? :D

I'd like to bitch about the guys complaining about the people whining...I think its totally unfair to bitch at the whiners for complaining. Its only right that the complainers get to whine without being bitched at.....


Ok I will stop hehehe

[7plymaple]

Originally posted by Brent
I agree with Tony.

My point
What if all clubs changed their course design to a shorter tighter design when holding a regional event than when holding a club event.

Stop bitching and whining about the complaining. If people who complained listened to the people who bitched and whined about their complaining we would still be wearing loin clothes and following a herd listening to "You've got a loin cloth and fire, stop your bitching". It is the same guys bitching and whining everytime someone complains.

Right on! It totally seems like regional hosts are playing it safe with tight courses. If this is supposed to be the regional series where people come from far and wide to compete against the rest of the region then GIVE US COURSES WHERE WE CAN DRIVE OUR CARS!

The regional series seems like the courses are dummy proofed for 1st timers so you have no choice but to slow down or not get a time. How bout some courses where you can let it rip. Seems like club events are for the guys who like to drive and the regional series is for testing your cone reading skills.

There hasnt been a Regional event that has been as much fun as any given PITL or TLMC event. I know that this is only my 2nd season where I comitted to getting out there every weekend possible, but theres lots of guys arround my age with about the same experience and as were gaining more experience were all noticing the same stuff.

Its getting hard to decide whats worth spending a weekend on, fun, or competing at the "Regional" level. Whatever that is.

[Brent]

Originally posted by miataboi
[
This "what-if" however, hasn't happened... only for the LAST event is that statement true... and from my understanding it was only a bit tighter than the week before... 1 data point is NOT a trend.

It isn't a what if, it is a fact that due to the larger turn outs, at regionals, the courses are designed to more efficient time wise, at the expense of the fun factor. I have seen it this year and last with more than one club. The courses set up for the regional events were unlike the courses the clubs usually used.



If people bitch and complain... and the people who disagree stay quiet... for fear of disagreement... it appears that everyone feels the same way... this is not the case.

Why is it if people disagree with course designs they are bitching and complaining but if you do it it's disagreeing. When people with legitimate complaints stay quiet for fear of being accused of bitching and whining it appears everybody is happy with the situation.... this is not the case.



P.P.S.
I'd like to see this grow into a community... with friendly rivalries and jabs... not a kvetching session.
Call Oprah...
...save the drama fo' yo' momma; [/B]

I feel alot friendlier after reading that.

[roooo]

Here's another SCCA video from a course that looks to be on a lot as big as at Wonderland .... soooo big. But it also goes to prove that no matter how big and open the course, people will find a way to hit cones :D

From an autocross somewhere around Buffalo, NY
http://www.emkayusa.net/vids/7_6run3.WMV

[superdave]

Originally posted by roooo
Here's another SCCA video from a course that looks to be on a lot as big as at Wonderland .... soooo big. But it also goes to prove that no matter how big and open the course, people will find a way to hit cones :D

From an autocross somewhere around Buffalo, NY
http://www.emkayusa.net/vids/7_6run3.WMV

:eek: That course looked awesome! If only lots like that were common!

[J.C.]

Originally posted by roooo
Here's another SCCA video from a course that looks to be on a lot as big as at Wonderland .... soooo big. But it also goes to prove that no matter how big and open the course, people will find a way to hit cones :D

From an autocross somewhere around Buffalo, NY
http://www.emkayusa.net/vids/7_6run3.WMV

Very nice course any other videos?

[Marsh]

Let me put my view on the course complaints this way. No matter what you do someone isn't going to like it. The people that do like it won't say ANYTHING, and the people that don't like it will make it seem that the whole world is on their side.

Classic example. Mike Harris tells Ontario his plan if ellected. He is ellected with a majority government. He then executes the plan just like he says. Protest are rampant and the unhappy people make it seem that everyone in the province wants him dead. Next ellection Mike Harris wins with a majority government.

Lesson: The vocal minority is just that, a minority, that's why they're vocal about it. They don't have any other way to convince you. The more people scream and shout about something being wrong the more you can be sure that most people think it was right. If everyone thinks it was wrong there won't be any screaming, because everyone already knows.

After OMSC their were raging, flaming comments. After WOSCA I don't see as many direct comments. Obiously the complaintents thought most people were in agreement.

That said the internet throughs another monkey wrench into the gears. From my experience 30 - 50% of people that post in inflamatory discussions are attention whores. "HEY LOOK AT ME I HAVE AN OPION THAT WILL PISS YOU OFF! PLEASE, PLEASE QUOTE ME AND CALL ME NAMES!" And anyone responding to them is another victim. Ignore the attention whores and discuss the topic at hand. The problem is that intellegent people get annoyed at the pile of crap initiated by the attention whore and, over time, give up and stop posting. Please intellegent people of SoloOntario don't let that happen to this board. I have a page for dealing with these people on my website. Pictures say a thousand words.

http://www.cockyracingguy.com/pictures-funny.htm

[Marsh]

Originally posted by roooo
Here's another SCCA video from a course that looks to be on a lot as big as at Wonderland .... soooo big. But it also goes to prove that no matter how big and open the course, people will find a way to hit cones :D

From an autocross somewhere around Buffalo, NY
http://www.emkayusa.net/vids/7_6run3.WMV

Yuk, no wonder nobody in SCCA does well in Preludes. Did he even hit the brakes before the stop box?

BTW just got around to reading all of the responses here...
Taylor, I don't like CCC courses (not that I've ran many). They are Corvette courses. Designed just like the Picton event to slow everyone down for the hairpin so the powerful car can win in the straights. It doesn't matter who you ask to design the course they will designa course they are better on.

IMO I haven't run a course I liked since Tony McGrath was doing nearly every PITL course, or Barry Searle's BAC regional course in Brampton a couple of years ago (now that was a good course, little bit of everything and no big advantages or disadvantages for anyone). That's including my own course designs BTW.

[JoeT]

Hey Marsh,

Chiming in... I guess I'm an attention freak.

I think you mis interpreted the point of this thread. No worries though, it's gotten a little too long and it's hard to pick up the original intent.

This was never meant to bash you or WOSCA. It's a plea to the organizers of new events to make the courses a little bit more fair to everyone.

BTW: If you take a close look at the posts, there's only 1 person that's been bashing anyone here. The rest of the posts were pretty intelligent.

Thanks for reading.

[J.C.]

Marshal I hope you did not get the impression I was bashing your event. IMO your group is one of the best organized. I also appreciate your forward thinking regarding marshalling and hope other clubs try to adopt your idea. I used to be involved in solo II back in the 80's early 90's but stopped when I got married. Last year I decided to get my brother into the sport as it is a safe venue to learn proper car control. I attended a few events and got hooked all over again. I managed a couple more events this year before my car was written off :( So when I say that the courses are quite a bit tighter now then they used to be I am speaking from experience but I am not reffering to yours specifically.


P.S. Even though I am no longer running as a competitor atm I do marshal and try and help out. Right now my only car is a 1988 Buick Lesabre and trying to autoslalom it would not be fun for me or all the marshalls.

[ADAM]

i have gone to 2 solo 2 events in my life...and they killed any inkling of me wanting to go back....the courses are llike... who can turn the sharpest to avoid a shopping cart.. no flow at all just a bunch of tight hairpins ...and basically the car that car rev the highest in a single gear ..has the biggest advantage....IF there were some courses that flowed..and had actual turns..i would go to solo 2 as well...



Originally posted by Chris P
Tony, come out of your corner!

This has been a major concern of mine for a few seasons, i was actually ready to start a post about this very issue however tony beat me to it.

One of the man reason's i elected not to run SOLO 2 this season is because i feel alot of the skill has been taken out of the sport. Courses are narrow and do not allow people to pick and debate lines to the extent that should be present. Driving from one gate to the next is not the type of AutoX i want put in my effort, money and time into. This is taking the challange and the fun out of S2 and John feels the same way.

Ok, so i have one of the smallest cars around, the current state of courses should be great for me........right??? :rolleyes:

It is very possible to make a good SCCA style course on our lots and accomendate this new found popularity that Regional SOLO 2 has seen. Our courses need to be alot wider with less of these silly lane change things. Wider, faster and since we deal with relatively small lots in ontario 2 laps may be needed. Also in alot of events i've found that no slalom's were present. Wierd, i thought this was called autoslalom?? The ideal course would seen the ASP drivers in the 30-35sec range, maybe less. If courses are getting too short then add a 2nd lap. Also, our courses use a outstanding number of cones, on most courses half of these could be taken out.

I'm not sure if any of you have competed in or watch video of national, division, or even regional level SCCA events. Its very different!! Everything seems to flow well, the courses are wide and allow the drivers to choose a line. Cars still use 1st gear but not nearly as long.

Re PAX, i gotta agree with taylor. Our courses are not catering to the current set of rules given. A course should give a spread inbetween the classes and reduce the amount of overlap present. Also, perhaps the PAX values need to be reevaluated. In SCCA they are changed almost yearly depending on the results from the Nationals.

And guess what, i even included a video of a SCCA event.

http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/albums/Krispy/aei.wmv

That would be a PROSOLO course. I know in ontario we don't have the lots needed to create 2 identical courses like that however 1 should be very possible.

To sum up, how can this problem be fixed?
Well, as compeditors we need to let the organizers know that other options are present. Alot of the current orgs. are fairly fresh blood and have only really been exposed to this type of course design which is why it has become a trend in ontario.


There was one course i really liked last season, it was the PITTL regional event and i believe Derek(red 2nd gen RX7) created the course. It seemed to flow well although still with too many cones. Anyway, that was a fun course! I did a fun run with Wes and i remember him using a different line through one of the fast back courners that seemed to work well, i just wish i had another run so i could try and do the same. Not sure it would have worked with my car but it would have been fun to try. :p


As for the COMP courses. The lot is amazing and the courses are usually very good allthough they seem to get a bunch of these pin turns that break everything up. Not sure why it happens? Perhaps its fun to toss a vette around them? :confused:



Thanks for your time.

[haniforama]

Adam - bring that bad-boy out to a Corvette event.

You do want to beat the Z06's right?

[ADAM]

hanif...do they have a website of all the event dates?

[Brent]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Marsh
[B]
BTW I drive a 3000lb car with 102in wheel base and I stayed cone free at WOSCA. Yet several civic drivers couldn't.

Marsh, was someone else driving your car? I saw your car take out one of the cones in the center of the decision box. Yes, I actually saw one.(for my marshalling critics)

[haniforama]

www.wiredmotorsports.com or www.hadamotorsport.com event calendars.


HADA (http://www.hadamotorsport.com/menu/fr_eventcalendar.html)

Wired (http://www.wiredmotorsports.com/calendar.asp)

[Marsh]

Originally posted by Brent
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Marsh
[B]
BTW I drive a 3000lb car with 102in wheel base and I stayed cone free at WOSCA. Yet several civic drivers couldn't.

Marsh, was someone else driving your car? I saw your car take out one of the cones in the center of the decision box. Yes, I actually saw one.(for my marshalling critics)

Sorry there was one cone on my 2nd run. I had no idea where it was, I didn't hear it at all. That was the first time I went left-left, instead of left-right. So it was more to do with me not walking the course that way, then anything else.

Don't worry guys I didn't think anyone was bashing on my event. Like I said the cones speak for themselves, nobody had to say anything. I understand what the intent of the thread was, I'm just making some points in the other direction, although much of what I was going to say has been said by others, so I won't re-hash.

I also see a few posts that are just stirring up sh!t, and wanted to address those.

[Dave]

I agree with the original intent of this thread, that is to say that Solo 2 courses should be opened up so that multiple lines through each gate are available. HADA will make a concerted effort to open up our course design for our September 13th event at the Brampton Center.

Cheers,
Dave

[JoeT]

I agree with the original intent of this thread, that is to say that Solo 2 courses should be opened up so that multiple lines through each gate are available. HADA will make a concerted effort to open up our course design for our September 13th event at the Brampton Center.



Dave gets a big hug and kiss.. Now where's that schoolgirl. Thanks a whole lot Dave.

[Tony Kloosterma]

Dave, I will make a special attempt to get you that school girl just for that..

Thank you.

Again guys, not tryiing to stir up shit or create controversy, I just think and it is my opinion that we need some diversity. Thats all.


Maybe I am too old, maybe my way of thinking is ancient, but i always thought the idea of solo was to drive in courses that determined both driver skill and the handling of the car, in my mind that never equated to small gates, but then maybe,
as has been mentioned before maybe i have a small mind.

Cheers to Dave to being open minded enough to at least consider it.

Thanks to Taylor, Andrew, Chris, Joe, Tom and others that supported my intent.

Its time to close the thread and move on to the next hot topic.
Anyone want to discuss pax or classes:D

Tony

[J.C.]

n/t

[andrew1984]

ooh ooh!!!

lets talk classes...

can i start in B3?? :)

i wanna move back into B S/S! :D

[ice/solo racer]

Andrew,do you really think that BSS is the place to be?so far it wouldn't seem to matter if the entire BSP class was moved into BSS-no 100 points events in either class for those guys!:D

Sorry guys,its not just me as you can now blame Mr. Tong as well.

[Dave]

Bring some schoolgirls with Subarus to the Sept 13th event! We've got loaner helmets and empty laps, ur, I mean empty passenger seats just waiting for them! :cool:

Krispy's going to do the course design for us, with the goal being the creation of as open and flowing a Solo 2 course as possible within the confines of the Brampton Center's lot. We may even want to send you guys a map of the course layout before the event date so that we can get some feedback on it from you. I'll keep you posted.

Cheers,
Dave

[andrew1984]

Originally posted by ice/solo racer
Andrew,do you really think that BSS is the place to be?so far it wouldn't seem to matter if the entire BSP class was moved into BSS-no 100 points events in either class for those guys!:D

Sorry guys,its not just me as you can now blame Mr. Tong as well.


sure it would old man... :D


this way i wouldnt get propositioned :eek:

[Chris P]

you better be bringing some school gurls to that event...........

[JoeT]

Hey Chris,

Will she do? (The one in the passenger seat)
Hopefully this is enough motivation to design a nice smooth curvy flowing course.

;)

http://coz-mo.com/nnm/autox3.jpg

http://www.coz-mo.com/nnm/Angel%20Vegas/angel3.jpg

[Taylor]

Oh dear... boudoir photos... can't say I'm surprised. :P

I see this is a favorite look for her.

I feel like saying something like "domestic model for a domestic car?" :)

I keep telling the HADA guys we need some models, but nooooo.. no takers. :)

Bah I say!

[rpr]

Originally posted by Taylor
I keep telling the HADA guys we need some models, but nooooo.. no takers. :)


You know that is a recipe for disaster, right? :D

[andrew1984]

dayyyyuuuuuum....

joe, hook me up with your daughter.. ok? :D

lol jk.

[JoeT]

Hey Andrew,

Don't you remember her from the WOSCA Solo?

I'll trade mine for yours... LOL, she's not my daughter. LOL Muahahaha!!!

[andrew1984]

hmm.... can i have both? :D


jk... oh boy.. i think im in trouble!:eek:

[Keith-02Accord]

Joe,

Since it seems everyone is to chickensh@t to ask, WHO IS SHE?

[JoeT]

Keith,

Her name is Teresa, she's the naughty model for http://neoncanada.com/

Her web site is: http://www.coz-mo.com/nnm/

http://neoncanada.com/pictures/models/teresa/main.html

Check out some of her other pictures: http://www.coz-mo.com/nnm/port.html

Enjoy

[miataboi]

Originally posted by Keith-02Accord
Joe,

Since it seems everyone is to chickensh@t to ask, WHO IS SHE?

I haven't the foggiest??? And how do you figure that she incurred this injury????? :eek:

http://www.coz-mo.com/nnm/Angel%20Vegas/angel9.jpg

It's beyond me!!!!

:p :D

[andrew1984]

wow.. shes 19?

p.s- dave, i gave her that injury.... yep... :o


thats what happens when you've got too much boost.... you pop.

[miataboi]

Originally posted by andrew1984
wow.. shes 19?


yeah... she can buy you beer!!!! :D

[Chris P]

hmmmm, looks like i need to start going to events :cool:

[Alf]

What was the subject of the tread? Ho right!!! I think, I can remember now. It was about tight course but now it's getting really tight :cool:

[Keith-02Accord]

Originally posted by JoeT
Keith,

Her name is Teresa, she's the naughty model for http://neoncanada.com/

Her web site is: http://www.coz-mo.com/nnm/

http://neoncanada.com/pictures/models/teresa/main.html

Check out some of her other pictures: http://www.coz-mo.com/nnm/port.html

Enjoy



Joe, that's niiiiiiiiiice! But how do YOU know her???????????

[JoeT]

Pete is a member of the SPDA, and his brother is a moderator for NeonCanada.com

Some of the Neos guys were there on Sunday and brought her along. She just wanted a ride in the Family barge to see what it was like.

Connections:

Pete -> Steph -> Neon Canada -> Teresa (Naughty Neon) = Lots of smiles from everyone.

:p

[Keith-02Accord]

Now Joe, Don't go getting any ideas....you're waaaaaaaaaaaayyy too old for her :D :D :D

[JoeT]

Originally posted by Keith-02Accord
Now Joe, Don't go getting any ideas....you're waaaaaaaaaaaayyy too old for her :D :D :D

What are you afraid of, that she may get spoiled by someone with sooooo much experience that she won't look anywhere else.

LOL :p

[haniforama]

Hmmm - i'd better not open those at work :D

[Keith-02Accord]

Actually Hanif, they are safe for the office!

Joe, I'm not afraid of anything. Besides, if you left the babyseat in the back, I don't think we have anything to worry about anyways. :p

[rpr]

Originally posted by Keith-02Accord
Actually Hanif, they are safe for the office!


Depends on the office. My office, yes, some others, probably not.

[Logan]

Originally posted by rpr
Depends on the office. My office, yes, some others, probably not.
Mine, no.

[Keith-02Accord]

Dudes, it's only a picture of a hot chick with a low cut shirt and a skirt. It's not porn!

[miataboi]

Originally posted by Keith-02Accord
Actually Hanif, they are safe for the office!

Joe, I'm not afraid of anything. Besides, if you left the babyseat in the back, I don't think we have anything to worry about anyways. :p

DUDE!!! That makes him the "forbidden fruit"!!! That works everytime!!! DOH! :eek:

[rpr]

I never said it was. But it's definitely not acceptable in many environments. I know a person who got fired for placing an image similar to that on another persons PC. Many larger corporations have very strict rules about what is and isn't okay. This definitely can cross a lot of those lines.

Don't get me wrong, I love the pics, but I certainly wouldn't say they are 'office friendly'.

[Keith-02Accord]

That's a good point. DOH is right! Okay Joe, you win! :( :cool:

[Keith-02Accord]

RPR, that's a good point! Some companies are just more uptight than others.

[Logan]

GE

[Taylor]

The bigger the corporation the more anal the policies...

Blame HR. God forbid anyone be offended in their lifetime. Shelter them! SHELTER THEMMMM!

And this reminds me of a cheeky story... when I was living in Vancouver as MIS Manager for this company, I shared an office with the Communications people, one of them was a mid 30 to late 30's male, openly gay.. Myron. My desk was at the back of the room, parrallel to his assistant, his desk faced the assistants and therefore his side/back would normally be turned to the doorway...During our lunch breaks we'd do all kinds of crap like Play networked Red Alert and things like that which everyone was cool with, anyhow once we were doing some communicable websurfing and I passed on a site I thought would interest him (don't ask how I got it. :) and I guess Myron's vision wasn't in the peripheral because not a couple minutes later does the President of the company walk in to talk to him that he has some buck assed naked guy on his screen.

Thank god the President was cool. :) Director... not so cool. :)

[haniforama]

I think i'll wait till i get home :)

[Taylor]

BTW, being the consumate critical geek that I am, I must say that those photos really don't "do her justice". No personal offence to the photographer intended, but he's shouldn't quit the day job. Lighting is ass. If she's really serious about modelling (which I presume based on the site), she should probably get a pro to do the photos.

Hey I just thought of a new service for Wired! :P

It never ceases to amaze me how a photograph or film can make or break someone's "Hot factor". Usually they make someone look better (by obscuring less flattering features), but not in this case... not as great.

She simply looks better as herself than as posed in the photos (these particular photos anyhow). There's a reason why photographers take 100's of photos and only use 3. :)

[Keith-02Accord]

This board is so coool!!!

Where else can you go from complaining about the tightness of auto cross tracks and then right into discussing chix!!!

[Logan]

Originally posted by Taylor
Blame HR. God forbid anyone be offended in their lifetime. Shelter them! SHELTER THEMMMM!
Don't get me started, we have to take annual "respectful workplace training" seminars.

[Dave]

th-thong-th-thong-thong-thong! :cool:

[andrew1984]

Originally posted by Dave
th-thong-th-thong-thong-thong! :cool:



:D

[JoeT]

Hey Logan,

Which part of GE are you with... I used to be with ITS on Meadowvale...

Keith,

Eat your heart out.


Joe "Forbidden Fruit" T.

LOL

[Keith-02Accord]

Originally posted by JoeT
Hey Logan,

Which part of GE are you with... I used to be with ITS on Meadowvale...

Keith,

Eat your heart out.


Joe "Forbidden Fruit" T.

LOL


Who da man :confused:

YOU da MAN!!!! :D

[Logan]

Originally posted by JoeT
Hey Logan,

Which part of GE are you with... I used to be with ITS on Meadowvale...


Industrial Systems - Peterborough

[JoeT]

Yes, I remember doing the oath of integrity once a year. UGH.

I still carry the six sigma and integrity cards. LOL

Bwahahahaha

[finboy]

Yo JOE

did you stop short with her??

http://coz-mo.com/nnm/autox3.jpg

:D

[JoeT]

Originally posted by finboy
Yo JOE

did you stop short with her??

http://coz-mo.com/nnm/autox3.jpg

:D


Stop short! :eek: Never, If anything is worth doing, it's worth doing right. That run happened to be extra long and satisfying. :cool: