Runs by class, instead of numerically

[Logan]

I think there has been some brief discussion about how solo II's are run.
Instead of running the cars in numerical order, is it possible to run each class at once? Ie all the A cars do their runs, then the B cars, then the C cars, then repeat.

Do we run things the current way just because it's easy? Can we sort car numbers by classes next year to run them in groups?
ie A cars are 1xx, B are 2xx, etc.

Thoughts?
Opinions?
Flames?

[haniforama]

If setup correctly, anything is possible, but it would seem numerical was decided for simplicity.

Hanif

[Logan]

Is there any desire to run cars by class?

[tanney]

I personally like the idea. Everybody that is competing against each other run in the same conditions. Intead of two competitors running 1 hour apart, have them run less than 10 minutes apart. That way in changing weather or surface conditions the classes are fairer.

Now that being said, there would be further delays because of the confusion for people not paying attention while cars are gridding. Some people can't seem to get it right when running in numerical order.......

[Logan]

I don't see why things would be delayed any further than they are already at times.

It happens once in a while that someone is snoozing and misses their spot, but not by much.
Doesn't that normally happen with new competitors?

[roooo]

I emailed this suggestion to Robb last year and got no response.
But it would be great.

I don't think car number matters. It's easy enough to check the grid list and see who else is in your class.

Also .. it should be 2 runs in a row for each class.
Then move to the next class ... and repeat after all the classes have done their 2 runs.

You can also more easily schedule the run times when you know how many people are in each class and there would be more time to get marshalilng over with or work on the car, etc, etc.
i.e. if there are 20 A-class competitors doing 2 runs, and they start at 10:00 AM, B-class's first 2 runs would be at roughly 10:40.

Running by class is also better for spectators because you can compare direct competitors back-to-back with their run times to see who's winning.

[tanney]

Section 2.8.19 states
[quote]
Vehicles shall run in consistent order as determined by the Organizer.
[end quote]

It up to the event organizer. If the club decides to do that, I can live with that. Like I said, it would make everything fairer for everyone.

Competitors are so used to running in numerical order (and people resist change) that the first few runs at the first few events would be a mess unless the organizing club had a plan to make it go smoothly.

From what I gather in SCCA events, you run in your run group according to class, do all of your runs all at once, then your done for the day except for a marshaling stint that could be before or after you run.

Sounds like a good plan, who wants to organize an event in Ontario like this?

[Logan]

I don't think I like it SCCA style.
Sounds like you can show up, register, if your class is first, do your runs, do your marshalling stint, and leave.

I like having a day of activity, run, work, socialize. It's part of the fun for me.

Maybe those american's like it more "business-like" instead of fun.

I like Rowan's plan.
Two runs, work, socialize/change setup/whatever, repeat.

Sounds like it would be easy to setup for an event.
Registration, drivers meeting, A class runs, C class works, B class has a break. B class runs, C breaks, A works. C runs, B works, A breaks.
Each class runs in numerical order (important to have class in plain view on each car).

Issue: B is a big class, other classes working will be out longer while B is running.

[miataboi]

Originally posted by Logan
Is there any desire to run cars by class?

...I LOVE this idea... and it can make a HUGE difference in conditions that are either where the track is "dirty" or when it is raining / starting to rain / temp is dropping off significantly.

[kromkamp]

I like the idea of the classes having separate numbers (100's = A, 200's = B, 300's = C). That way, you are still running in numerical order so theres no real change in the staging 'process'.

[ice/solo racer]

I ran an event in Pennslyvannia in 2000 that did the runs in groups,I liked running all runs at once so things are fresh like course,mistakes etc.
The only thing was waiting around for the whole morning and into early afternoon before my group ran,and it wasn't buy class either as my buddy I went with ran in the first group(we were both CSP).It poured rain ALL day otherwise would have been a huge benifit to be in one group or the other.
I don't mind the idea of two back to back runs before moving on to next group.I would give more time to do some socializing in my mind.

[Logan]

I think the socializing is important.

We don't do this for the cars, do we??

[Marsh]

I like the Idea, but so long as we still see all cars do their first run (in order by class), then all cars do their 2nd run etc. I don't like the heat system where a class does all 5 runs, then the next class goes.

[superdave]

Originally posted by Marsh
I like the Idea, but so long as we still see all cars do their first run (in order by class), then all cars do their 2nd run etc. I don't like the heat system where a class does all 5 runs, then the next class goes.

I agree.

[Logan]

You'd rather see all cars do one run, instead of two before rotating?

[mike_moss]

Originally posted by kromkamp
I like the idea of the classes having separate numbers (100's = A, 200's = B, 300's = C). That way, you are still running in numerical order so theres no real change in the staging 'process'.

sounds like best idea so far...


2 runs (as rowan suggested) sounds nice, but that would double waiting time in between heats. and if we have an event where there are only 4 runs in the whole day, that means long wait times in between...(too long, maybe)

[kromkamp]

Thanks, but it was Logan's idea I just parroted it :)

I also agree it should be 1 run at a time. The wait time of ~1hr between runs is not too bad, but if it were 2hrs it would either be unbearable or a good excuse to leave for an hour and a half to somewhere air conditioned!

[mike_moss]

Originally posted by kromkamp
Thanks, but it was Logan's idea I just parroted it :)

Ahhh, true...I must be going blind. :p

[Taylor]

This is somewhat how CNAC was run last year. Not sure if it's in the rules or was an organizational decision. But we ran it almost like a Solo 1 in terms of gridding. Classes were grouped together into Run groups. Each run group ran tow in a row (maybe a 20 minute difference by the time you got out again), giving you enough time to adjust pressures and such).

My problem with this format was it meant (during CNAC) a difference of about 6 hours between my first two runs and my last 2.

Though the course was open again to walkthroughs at lunch but after 6 hours under the sun, some marshalling, how are you expected to remember the course. It was hard enough being over 90 seconds. :)

The thing I dislike the most about numerical is the first run for a low number is going to be a throw away, there's all kinds of crap on the course, no rubber. Course if the next quickest guy is like 2nd last in the order, he has all the grip he needs.. there's an advantage.. at least on a 1st run basis regardless of weather. But yeah it's better competition wise to have the classes run in closest possible proximity.

[Marsh]

Originally posted by Logan
You'd rather see all cars do one run, instead of two before rotating?

Yes, it's still possible for different families to affect each others paxes, and what about rookie points? Sure the run order should be based on class, but every class should get one run, then every class gets 2nd run etc. This keeps the number of runs even and gives some consistency for conditions amongst all classes.

[miataboi]

Originally posted by Taylor


The thing I dislike the most about numerical is the first run for a low number is going to be a throw away, there's all kinds of crap on the course, no rubber. Course if the next quickest guy is like 2nd last in the order, he has all the grip he needs.. there's an advantage.. at least on a 1st run basis regardless of weather. But yeah it's better competition wise to have the classes run in closest possible proximity.

Dood...

'member 1st pitl???

If it rains HALFWAY through the first (or 2nd, or 3rd) run... the EARLY # guy gets a HUGE advantage!!! Particularly if it is the 1st run!!!!

[Taylor]

You're preaching to the choir boi! :)

[superdave]

Originally posted by Logan
You'd rather see all cars do one run, instead of two before rotating?

Yes. If we do two runs, that means after your first, your stuck in your car in a lineup for quite awhile. This would be especially bad for B-class people. What a 45 minute what possibly? No thanks! I'd rather be socializing/working on car/getting food etc. No reason to waste that time sitting in a lineup. Wow listen to me bitch :p

Thats my one problem with the pro solos. I understand why it has to be that way, doesn't mean I have to like it though ;)

[msix]

I am from Ottawa, so there is no need to take me serious, but I still like to add my two cents.

First thing that came to mind is the time for marshalling. Most of you guys must be running in B-Group, so I guess it is not a concern for you, except Logan mentioned this

Issue: B is a big class, other classes working will be out longer while B is running.

At least up here (in Ottawa) we usually have at least three times as many B-Group cars out then A- , and C - Group cars.

So if you would change the format to run by Class, then there are maybe 40 or more people from the B-Group sharing the marchalling duties for 40 minutes or so, and then 10 or 15 people from A and/or C-Group are so lucky to share the work for at least 90 minutes to 2 hours.

Somebody got any better ideas??

Just another ignorant BMW Driver
Klaus

[Taylor]

Yeah you create run groups by class. Just like in Solo 1. So Run Group X could have A Mod, B Mod, ASP, BSP, CSP, then Group Y is ASC, A1, B1, C1, C2, and group Z is A2, A3, A4, B2, B3, C2, C3, CMOD.. something like that. Whatever roughly evens out the #'s.

[Logan]

Or have the A & C competitors work together, and the B competitors work by themselves.

[superdave]

I dont see how running classes together will make a difference if we do it one run at a time. It will be the same as always - report for marshalling when you are done your run....

The only thing were affecting is the order.

[mike_moss]

Originally posted by msix
So if you would change the format to run by Class, then there are maybe 40 or more people from the B-Group sharing the marchalling duties for 40 minutes or so, and then 10 or 15 people from A and/or C-Group are so lucky to share the work for at least 90 minutes to 2 hours.

Not really. Competitors aren't busy for the whole time their Class is doing runs, they do their run like any other normal run, finish and then report for Marshalling duties as usual. It just groups all Class competitors closer.

[Logan]

Yes, Mike and Dave!
Seems like I am trying to make this more complicated than it needs to be.

[mike_moss]

No no, your original idea is best IMO. Just assign prefixes to each Class. Everyone keeps original numbers, unless they have a 3-digit car number, then they'll have to drop their prefix for their class prefix.

This system will allow up to 100 competitors in each Class...will that be enough?

[superdave]

Originally posted by mike_moss
This system will allow up to 100 competitors in each Class...will that be enough?

Currently yes. We would have to see major growth for this not to work. Even so... give whatever class needs it two hundred numbers instead of one hundred.

[mike_moss]

Oh, just thought of something else...

These "number rules" would apply only to Series registered competitors. Therefore all beginner, non-series registered and any other competitors would be allocated numbers under 100.

(and now for the diabolical thinking...)

This would also serve to lay down some rubber on the course and clean up the track for the series registered competitors. However, this could also be a problem for beginners learning the track and such. (I can see the cones flying already! :p )

[kromkamp]

Yeah, I dont like that one so much :)

[superdave]

Originally posted by mike_moss
Oh, just thought of something else...

These "number rules" would apply only to Series registered competitors. Therefore all beginner, non-series registered and any other competitors would be allocated numbers under 100.

(and now for the diabolical thinking...)

This would also serve to lay down some rubber on the course and clean up the track for the series registered competitors. However, this could also be a problem for beginners learning the track and such. (I can see the cones flying already! :p )

I think that will just make things 10 times more complicated if not ALL B class people are together. Only grouping the series registered is just dumb in my opinion.... (yes I am series registered).

All we would need is a number sheet. Series regeristered people would be pre-marked on it, and non series people would fill in the other numbers...

[mike_moss]

By grouping only series registered competitors (still by Class), you bring the playing field even tighter for those which it counts for.

I can't speak for the organizers, but I see this as alot easier. Having 100's for A Class, 200's for B Class, 300's for C Class, then <100 or some other block of numbers for non-series registered competitors.

[Logan]

Too complicated I think for numbers less than 100.
Just give the event only registrants the higher numbers in the class.
Keeps classes together. Isn't that why we are thinking about doing this?

[mike_moss]

I'm just voicing different ideas under the theory that if it isn't the answer, it might spark a thought for someone else.

I just want the best system for competitors, organizers and one time racers.

[StewPiddass]

or... we could just run in numerical order!... good idea huh?

[mike_moss]

Originally posted by StewPiddass
or... we could just run in numerical order!... good idea huh?

sounds great! :p

[Marsh]

Hey everyone, don't forget that run order is detirmed by the host club, not region rules. So if you like the idea impliment it, if not don't sweat it.

[andrew1984]

i for one think its a good idea.

but, at the same time - this would create many headaches/confusion.

i dont think it outweighs the benefits, imo.

[kromkamp]

I dont think it creates any confusion, except a little bit for the people assigning numbers in the morning.

After that, you can be completely oblivious to the 'grouping' of the numbers, if you like.

[roooo]

The I guess this falls under the same line of thinking as the appeal for more flowing courses. :)

Don't split up series/non-series. Run all drivers in the same class together.

A problem with run-groups separating the Classes within a Family is that you could mess with the paxing in case of dramatic changes in weather or course conditions. In that case it is better to keep all the Families as close as possible but with the very large numbers in B that may not end up working out.

Also .. I don't see why you need to re-number the cars. Aren't all cars already supposed to wear their Class identification as well as their number? So ... no problem.

[andrew1984]

so basically, the idea is to run things like they are done in the PRO SOLO's? except only one run at a time?

[superdave]

That would be an easier option. Call out a class and just have mixed up numbers? This may be a problem for the timers though...?

[Marsh]

Originally posted by andrew1984
so basically, the idea is to run things like they are done in the PRO SOLO's? except only one run at a time?

That's what I was trying to say. No need to change numbers. Just announce: All A family cars in numberical order, then B family in numerical order, then C family in numerical order. You could change the order of the families every event to try and keep it fair.

[finboy]

on paper this all sounds good,

personally i think you either need a ton of cars where the classes get populated

otherwise its just too much to handle

it isn't hard to run in order, but at every event there are always people missing their spots, or running out of turn.

i had to go take a pee, i got lost....

solo I events are very structured, where as solo II you can get any wanker out....

at the pro solo there's only 4 classes... and its hard enough staging everyone

with the numbers we get at pitl and the 7 classes, it would be a staging, marshalling nightmare

we will never run by class.

still trying to keep things simple

lots of people,
lots of runs
no lunch break
as many runs as possible

nothing is fair in life...

[Suzie]

One thought that leapt to my mind with running a class at a time is that it's harder for two people to share a car - less time between runs for those of us with co-drivers, yk?

Suzie

[superdave]

Originally posted by Suzie
One thought that leapt to my mind with running a class at a time is that it's harder for two people to share a car - less time between runs for those of us with co-drivers, yk?

Suzie

In a small class I agree that may be a problem. But then again... It doesn't have to be. You only need a few cars between to make it work.

[Logan]

The rules also say that if two (or more) people are sharing a car, there needs to be at least 5 cars before this car runs again.

[andrew1984]

Originally posted by Logan
The rules also say that if two (or more) people are sharing a car, there needs to be at least 5 cars before this car runs again.


really? which section?

[Logan]

Sorry Andrew, don't have my rulebook here.
It's in there though...

[roooo]

C'mon .. if you're driving a Miata I don't think you will have a problem with an empty class... ;)

[DareBee]

Have any of you guys cosidered how to marshal this type of running?
Consider A group marshals for C, B group marshals for D etc.
OK D group has 5 drivers and B group has 22 drivers.
When D group is running I need only half of B group for marshals for maybe 10 minutes.
When B group is running I dont have enough D to cover the marshal stations as well as they will marshal for 30 minutes.
Not to mention the management logistics of all this and the time delays between run groups.
It all seems good from a driving/competition standpoint.
Please remember us organizers are volunteers out to have a fun and marginally relaxing day as well.
I have been doing this for 14 years.

[Logan]

I think we discussed earlier in this thread to run marshalling the same way MOST clubs do it now. Finish your run, check in for marshalling duties, rotate through the various posts, done.

Works just like it does now.

I don't understand finboy's comment about populating the classes.

We have classes now that are underpopulated. We're not changing the classes, just sorting them differently.

All the usual things that can happen with run order will be the same, some people are going to forget to line up in time, miss their spot etc. It happens, we deal with it then the same as now.

[superdave]

Originally posted by DareBee
Have any of you guys cosidered how to marshal this type of running?
Consider A group marshals for C, B group marshals for D etc.
OK D group has 5 drivers and B group has 22 drivers.
When D group is running I need only half of B group for marshals for maybe 10 minutes.
When B group is running I dont have enough D to cover the marshal stations as well as they will marshal for 30 minutes.
Not to mention the management logistics of all this and the time delays between run groups.
It all seems good from a driving/competition standpoint.
Please remember us organizers are volunteers out to have a fun and marginally relaxing day as well.
I have been doing this for 14 years.

This has ben discussed ealier in the thread. Nothing would change from the format now. You marshal after your run... simple as that.

[eddie 82]

Just bringing this thread back from the dead, as I think it would be great to try something a little different this year!

Have any clubs considered trying a new run order this year?

[Marsh]

Originally posted by eddie 82
Just bringing this thread back from the dead, as I think it would be great to try something a little different this year!

Have any clubs considered trying a new run order this year?

2004 CASC-OR Solo-2 rule book Section 4.3.J:
"...It is recommended for fairness that cars run by class..."

I personally would like to see this change from event to event. Doug tried this at the PMSC regional last year. It wasn't necessarily better than numerical. But the fact that it was merely different made for a more enjoyable day. I could chat, or even go for ride alongs with people I never could before. There were some of my fellow competitors I had never seen run before in several years of Solo.

At the WOSCA events I'm going to recommend changing the run order every event. This also elliminates any advantage to running later. For example I never had the luxury of knowing if I had my competitor beaten already and could go for a back-up time on my 5th run. This is a powerful advantage in the championship race, and I'd like to see a system where nobody has that advantage every time.

[Logan]

Originally posted by Marsh
I personally would like to see this change from event to event.
The only problem with that is it's SO confusing for competitors. I tried to have a run order available (maybe the new online registration system would help have this in advance) before the first run, but it was difficult. Also, competitors that were there that day weren't necessarily aware that I was going to try this.
Better communication between competitors, and better preparation of organizers could make it work though.
I enjoyed the variety too.

[Marsh]

Well I think class order is like numerical order. You really don't need a printed run order, just a printed order for which classes go in which order.

So say you do what you did at one event (I thought it was straight forward enough after the first run), then another event we do numerical. Then another event we do reverse numerical.

[finboy]

running in order is hard enough..

people still can't get the idea..

1 then
2 then
3 then
4 then

then imagine the last car.. you'd figure the first 10 cars might be in line.. right after it... sometimes it happens... sometimes!!!

running run groups eg classes would be a fantastic idea
how many classes are there???

after that, lets run by colour

red then
blue then
black then
primer then

yea thats the ticket!!

for newbies, and to keep the events consistant... why change it???

basically the way it is now.. anyone can go anywhere in southern ontario and the structure is the same

change isn't a good thing..

unless you have 4 classes or a LOT of volunteers to stage cars,
it will be a mess

[eddie 82]

C'mon Dave.....are you one of those guys that won't use a bank machine either...preferring to go to the teller to pay your bills and withdraw $20 for your next bottle of hair dye?

That's why we have rules....and drivers meetings.....and the internet. Get the word out....."this next even will be run by class instead of numerically"......

For those who won't "get it" right away....then they miss a run, kick themselves in the rear, and make sure it doesnt happen again

[finboy]

talk is cheap..

Ryan, why don't you volunteer more of your time to help out
with organizing?

anyone can make suggestions, very few actually do something about it.

smell my bum

[eddie 82]

Ask Darryl who emailed him last week wanting to help with the PITL series this year....

[finboy]

was it your Momma??

secondly.. the pitl is a club series and have been running
in order since the dark ages

highly doubt we'll run by class

and if we do.. you won't be able to run!!

since you're like a PA day




noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo classssssssssssssssssss

[Greg F]

Yeah Ryan, talk is cheap. I'm selling tickets for the big showdown between the white, boosted Miatas. Get yo' arse ready! :p

[eddie 82]

Originally posted by Greg F
Yeah Ryan, talk is cheap. I'm selling tickets for the big showdown between the white, boosted Miatas. Get yo' arse ready! :p Good luck telling the 4 (yes, four) of us apart this year ;)

[AlienDNA]

Originally posted by eddie 82
Good luck telling the 4 (yes, four) of us apart this year ;)

Well, your's would be the car sponsored by the Yellow Pages, right? ;)

[Greg F]

Originally posted by eddie 82
Good luck telling the 4 (yes, four) of us apart this year ;)

Four?! I thought there were only three. OK, ticket prices are going up 85% now.