Results of the Nov 22 Autoslalom Workshop

[Gwoody27]

All, here are notes from the most recent workshop. Take a look and let me know what you think. Thanks.

[craig]

Hi Gary:

Looks good, BUT- where did that note under point 8 come from? That was not discussed or I didn't hear it. The point of adjusting the rules comes from attaining compliance with the second and third sentences of 1.1 (corrected quote below, bold mine) - not introducing an additional note that conflicts with 1.1, leaving both CASC-OR and the region's clubs in a worse position than we were before the meeting. Why would CASC-OR essentially give up sanctioning authority for a club-level event to ASN Canada FIA?

1.1. Rules Apply To All Solo Events
Every Solo II event in the Ontario Region must comply with Sections 1 through 3, while Sections 4 through 7 apply to all Provincial Championship Events and are optional for all other Solo II events. This is to say all Solo II events (definitions below), including informal club level events, must comply with Sections 1 through 3 in order to be covered by Club Insurance. It is the responsibility of the organizing club to make sure that these rules are followed.

[Doug P]

2. Driver restraint (stock classes): propose that all vehicles must have at least a 2 point lap belt anchored at the OM locations. All vehicles sold with a 3 point harness must have a minimum of a 3 point seatbelt in us, anchored at the OM locations. In 3 point vehicles it will be acceptable to use a racing harness 2 point lap belt so long as the 3rd should harness is also used. It is acceptable to use 2 shoulder harnesses only if a rollover bar is installed in the vehicle and the shoulder harness is attached according to their manufacturer’s precise directions. This was agreed and will become part of the 2009 rulebook.

Why would this be restricted to stock classes only?


3. Canadian / USA parts usage for all classes: proposed that only vehicles and parts made available through OM dealers in Canada or the USA be eligible for use in the CASC-OR provincial Series. This will apply to updated and backdated parts. This was agreed and will become part of the 2009 rulebook.

What is the purpose of this change? It seems uneccessarily restrictive.

[finboy]

All, here are notes from the most recent workshop. Take a look and let me know what you think. Thanks.

when do you want the comments returned by?

[mikewolf]

2. Driver restraint (stock classes): propose that all vehicles must have at least a 2 point lap belt anchored at the OM locations. All vehicles sold with a 3 point harness must have a minimum of a 3 point seatbelt in us, anchored at the OM locations. In 3 point vehicles it will be acceptable to use a racing harness 2 point lap belt so long as the 3rd should harness is also used. It is acceptable to use 2 shoulder harnesses only if a rollover bar is installed in the vehicle and the shoulder harness is attached according to their manufacturer’s precise directions. This was agreed and will become part of the 2009 rulebook.

Why would this be restricted to stock classes only?


3. Canadian / USA parts usage for all classes: proposed that only vehicles and parts made available through OM dealers in Canada or the USA be eligible for use in the CASC-OR provincial Series. This will apply to updated and backdated parts. This was agreed and will become part of the 2009 rulebook.

What is the purpose of this change? It seems uneccessarily restrictive.

I believe the seat belt rule would be restricted to stock classes only because the wording says that they must be anchored in the OM locations. In other classes you would be able anchor the restraints in non OM locations.

I would also interpret the Canada/US parts rule to only apply to Updated and backdated parts. This would prevent people using JDM parts under the update backdate rule. I would assume you could still use any parts as long as the rules allowed it and you take the pips.

[13inches]

The $20 reimbursement doesn't cover the entry fee at most events that I attend. That means the club will have to swallow $10 - $20. If this is really a free event for those who get the voucher, shouldn't CASC reimburse the entire entry fee?

[tanney]

The $20 reimbursement doesn't cover the entry fee at most events that I attend. That means the club will have to swallow $10 - $20. If this is really a free event for those who get the voucher, shouldn't CASC reimburse the entire entry fee?

The competitor picks up the rest, not the club.

I actually object to any club getting reimbursed for an entry fee from the region for a club event.....STRONGLY. A provincial event, definitely, but not a club event.

[finboy]

7. Provincial novice eligibility: proposed that anyone who has never competed in a “Regional or Provincial” championship event will be eligible to compete for the CASC-OR Provincial novice championship. This was agreed and will be included in the 2009 rulebook.

-i'm guessing this change is to lure out club only types to the regional events.
-it's a good thing, but change the title to Rookie championship vs. Novice championship

8. Autocross wording: Autocross events are those held on dirt, snow or ice. Proposed to modify the current rulebook to previous wording that allows these events to take place under this rulebook so long as the surface used is stable enough to expect no rollovers. This was agreed and will be included in the 2009 rulebook. NOTE: This will not necessarily mean that ASN insurance will be available. It is up to each club hosting an autocross event to confer with ASN to make that determination.

-we use autocross tires, not sure if there's a relationship to the wording
for events

14. Autoslalom school: at least 1 school will be planned for 2009. It was agreed that each participant will receive a free entry to any autoslalom event held in Ontario in 2009, club or provincial and that CASC-OR will reimburse the club for the entry fee up to a value of $20.00
- make it a discount coupon (why should the club take the hit on the difference?
-and or only at a regional event (regional funds take the hit)

17. First time entrant to the CASC-OR 2009 Mobil1 Autoslalom Series: It was confirmed that anyone who has never before entered the series will receive 1 free event (not series) entry to be underwritten by CASC-OR (up to $20.00).
-follows #14 is there any club or any regional event that charges a $20buck entry fee??

[13inches]

The competitor picks up the rest, not the club.



Then it's not a free event as stated in the minutes. This should be clarified by Gary.

[finboy]

14. Autoslalom school: at least 1 school will be planned for 2009. It was agreed that each participant will receive a $20.00 discount coupon for entry to any regional championship autoslalom event held in Ontario in 2009, and that CASC-OR will reimburse the club for the entry fee up to a value of $20.00


how bout that?

[sjd]

3. Canadian / USA parts usage for all classes: proposed that only vehicles and parts made available through OM dealers in Canada or the USA be eligible for use in the CASC-OR provincial Series. This will apply to updated and backdated parts. This was agreed and will become part of the 2009 rulebook.

What about vehicles sold in the U.S. not sold in Canada? I asked about this earlier in the year and sounded like I was out of luck in the stock class

http://www.casc.on.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=13659

I now have an 2006 MX-5 and want to know about updating to the 2007 MS-R specs. Although I have been buidling the car with CSP in mind, it'd be nice to have the CS option.

[Pete@Marcor]

3. Canadian / USA parts usage for all classes: proposed that only vehicles and parts made available through OM dealers in Canada or the USA be eligible for use in the CASC-OR provincial Series. This will apply to updated and backdated parts. This was agreed and will become part of the 2009 rulebook.

What about vehicles sold in the U.S. not sold in Canada? I asked about this earlier in the year and sounded like I was out of luck in the stock class

http://www.casc.on.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=13659

I now have an 2006 MX-5 and want to know about updating to the 2007 MS-R specs. Although I have been buidling the car with CSP in mind, it'd be nice to have the CS option.

This is the idea behind the rule change. It will allow a competitor to run a US spec car in our series.

However, when in Stock, you can only do an interchange of equipment on the same model year. You MUST have a 2007 MX-5 to run the MS-R package, as it was only available on a 2007 MY car.

I would be overjoyed if we were allowed to do the model interchange between years, as it would let me run the factory LSD in my older (2002) car. It is not allowed in the US to do that, and we just wanted to align ourselves with that rule set. We did not want to open up that can of worms.

At the moment, I cannot imagine we would ever allow the change between years in Stock. That is what SP is for.

[Marsh]

BTW, wasn't the discussion about the up-date-back-date to make it global, not just north america? The point being that you can import a JDM car, so why should it be illegal to update back date to parts on a car I can buy in the autotrader?

The stock vehicle eligibility and model conversions were discussed the same way, although I have no problem with merely switching to north america rather than world wide.

[Pete@Marcor]

- make it a discount coupon (why should the club take the hit on the difference?
-and or only at a regional event (regional funds take the hit)


I am not sure why there is a huge resistance from clubs about providing a partial subsidy to a competitor to try to entice them to participate in a Regional event.

The Region is paying for the majority of the cost of the entry, so, why can't the club, in the interest of promoting the sport, pay for a portion of that entry?

This is a potentially new competitor, who might even be impressed with the way that the hosting club runs their events, and comes back for the club events. also, the idea is that this is a new competitor, so they may not want to spend the $30-35 on an event that they have not done before. (Regional compared to a Club event)

I think that the idea is that the subsidy is only to be for a Regional event, but I think that the clarification still needs to happen. These are simply notes, I believe.

[gkierst]

As a former organizer of a club series, I think the Region is stepping over a line by spending a club's money. The Region doesn't have to balance an event budget, it collects levy fees from any Regional event. It is the responsibility of the organizing club alone to make sure the entries cover the expenses. So my message to the Region is, don't drink our milkshake.

Greg

[Marsh]

As a former organizer of a club series, I think the Region is stepping over a line by spending a club's money. The Region doesn't have to balance an event budget, it collects levy fees from any Regional event. It is the responsibility of the organizing club alone to make sure the entries cover the expenses. So my message to the Region is, don't drink our milkshake.

Greg

??? Where is the idea of the region spending a club's money come from? The only two financial issues discussed are the region giving $20 vouchers which the clubs collect FROM THE REGION and pocket the $20 and the idea of the region sharing financial risk with clubs, which was merely and idea and will be discussed further with the clubs. The only ideas that have even be considered have been to EASE the burden on clubs.

This is why I refused to be the director BTW.

[Gwoody27]

Folks, I want to assure all the clubs that CASC-OR is not trying to interfer with club activites but rather are trying to encourage higher attendance at the clubs and in the provincial series. Here is some background:

Re: Underwriting $20.00 for autoslalom school attendees and 1st time provincial series entries.
As everyone understands the purpose of the $20.00 payment from CASC-OR to the clubs for these people is to encourage greater participation. It is hoped that entering 1 event will lead to more. Most would agree this is a good idea.
Why only $20.00 when entry fees are often $25.00 to $40.00? The CASC-OR Autoslalom division has a very small annual budget which comes from sponsors, series entry fees and provincial series event levies. Since it is unclear how many students there will be and how many sponsor $ will be available, I need to limit the maximum payout so we have enough $ left for the other commitments we have. As time goes on and better info is available then maybe the amount will change but for now this is a generous as I can be. It is $ back to clubs that hasn't been available in the last few years, so I hope it helps and works for us all. It is a great idea to offer a coupon rather than a "free entry". This way the club has the choice to add to the fee if they want, although I recommend that you don't do it.

[Gwoody27]

Everyone please stay calm. We will work through this so that everyone understands and we get overall improvement for Autoslalom in Ontario.

[gkierst]

??? Where is the idea of the region spending a club's money come from? The only two financial issues discussed are the region giving $20 vouchers which the clubs collect FROM THE REGION and pocket the $20 and the idea of the region sharing financial risk with clubs, which was merely and idea and will be discussed further with the clubs. The only ideas that have even be considered have been to EASE the burden on clubs.

This is why I refused to be the director BTW.

Gary understands my point. I know our club gives away plenty of free events every season and would likely negotiate with CASC-OR on this.

Greg

[craig]

FYI, I was at the meeting as the delegated representative of MCO and was in favour of the free entry concept as discussed at the meeting.

[gkierst]

FYI, I was at the meeting as the delegated representative of MCO and was in favour of the free entry concept as discussed at the meeting.

Thank you Craig.

[sjd]

This is the idea behind the rule change. It will allow a competitor to run a US spec car in our series.

However, when in Stock, you can only do an interchange of equipment on the same model year. You MUST have a 2007 MX-5 to run the MS-R package, as it was only available on a 2007 MY car.

I would be overjoyed if we were allowed to do the model interchange between years, as it would let me run the factory LSD in my older (2002) car. It is not allowed in the US to do that, and we just wanted to align ourselves with that rule set. We did not want to open up that can of worms.

At the moment, I cannot imagine we would ever allow the change between years in Stock. That is what SP is for.

Thanks Pete. CSP should be fun, I have a header anyway and in CSP I'm allowed coilovers and swaybars.

It's going to be a long winter watching parts pile up in my basement. :p

[blur911]

3. Canadian / USA parts usage for all classes: proposed that only vehicles and parts made available through OM dealers in Canada or the USA be eligible for use in the CASC-OR provincial Series. This will apply to updated and backdated parts. This was agreed and will become part of the 2009 rulebook.


I just want to know what OM means? Did someone make up a new acronym to use instead of OE?:confused:

[sjd]

I just want to know what OM means? Did someone make up a new acronym to use instead of OE?:confused:

I took it to mean OEM.

[tanney]

This is why I refused to be the director BTW. And EXACTLY why I am no longer..... This is one club's response to an issue, add three or four more and the fun really begins......:)

[13inches]

This is why I refused to be the director BTW.

When were you nominated?

[Black Shadow]

Gary and the autoslalom workshop proposed the event coupon and published the notes in order to gain feedback. I think its clear that it's not met well and I think we should consider setting it aside. The goal was to encourage those that attended the SoloSchool to come to a full event, and maybe we can do that another way.

When I started out, what was daunting was the choice of which events to go to and not knowing anyone who was there. Maybe we can put together a 'take-away' package for each student at the school. It might list the upcoming events, a quick blurb about the flavour of that club's events, the location and when to show up, and to connect the club with a 'face' of one of the school's instructors. So at least the newbie would know one person at the next event.

i.e.

- go to Tommy's aften an MCO event and score free swag
- don't ever speed going to or from a TLMC even 'cause the cops have no patience
- r-comps = FTD at PMSC. Even on a Hyundai
- you must eat at Lick's went PITL'ing, you have no choice
- don't show up anytime before 10 to a StLAC picton event, unless you've brought a book
- arrive early to HADA if you want to park anywhere near the course

etc

[Tashko]

Sounds like a simple mis-understanding to me.

If the club fee is $40, CASC provides $20 of it to the club via a coupon that somebody attending the school receives, the school attendee pays the other $20. The club receives $40 for said school attendee.

Why all the fuss? :confused:

[Pete@Marcor]

Thanks Pete. CSP should be fun, I have a header anyway and in CSP I'm allowed coilovers and swaybars.

It's going to be a long winter watching parts pile up in my basement. :p

No worries. But, since you are changing items that may or not be included in the MS-R package, you might get yourself into SS. Much better PAX, and if you can stay there, I would.

[tanney]

Why all the fuss? :confused:

To cause a fuss.....

[sjd]

Maybe we can put together a 'take-away' package for each student at the school. It might list the upcoming events, a quick blurb about the flavour of that club's events, the location and when to show up, and to connect the club with a 'face' of one of the school's instructors. So at least the newbie would know one person at the next event.

i.e.

- go to Tommy's aften an MCO event and score free swag
- don't ever speed going to or from a TLMC even 'cause the cops have no patience
- r-comps = FTD at PMSC. Even on a Hyundai
- you must eat at Lick's went PITL'ing, you have no choice
- don't show up anytime before 10 to a StLAC picton event, unless you've brought a book
- arrive early to HADA if you want to park anywhere near the course

etc

That sounds like a good idea. And the cops in Barrie do have some patience, I luckily got off with a warning earlier in the year because the officer liked the IS-F I was driving. :p


No worries. But, since you are changing items that may or not be included in the MS-R package, you might get yourself into SS. Much better PAX, and if you can stay there, I would.

Thanks Pete. I thought of that at first but I am over the number of allowed prep points.

2 points for F&R sway bars
3 points for coil overs
2 points for header
2 points for cold air intake

Plus the header removes one cat, leaving me with only one, so I think there are more points for that. If I am wrong please correct me.

[Pete@Marcor]

Thanks Pete. I thought of that at first but I am over the number of allowed prep points.

2 points for F&R sway bars
3 points for coil overs
2 points for header
2 points for cold air intake

Plus the header removes one cat, leaving me with only one, so I think there are more points for that. If I am wrong please correct me.

As per 9.9.1:

Catalytic converters and thermal reactors may be replaced with aftermarket units or removed.

So, having 1 or 0 cats is legal for SS.

Also, 9.9.3:

Removal of, or use of any alternate air cleaner assembly is permitted. Cold air induction upstream of the air cleaner is allowed. On vehicles so equipped, the duct between the air flow/mass sensor and the throttle body may be changed, the replaced duct work must serve no other purpose beyond that of a duct. This section of duct work is considered part of the air cleaner assembly.

Now, I do not to influence your prep thoughts, but this puts you at 7 points. I would see if you can increase the spring in one end of the car, and only use 1 sway bar, or seriously think about the header.

[craig]

Sounds like a simple mis-understanding to me.

If the club fee is $40, CASC provides $20 of it to the club via a coupon that somebody attending the school receives, the school attendee pays the other $20. The club receives $40 for said school attendee.

Why all the fuss? :confused:

Because the notes have additions that were not obvious at the meeting. For example, I sent the MCO Solo2 committee my notes from the meeting. I remember the "free event" idea, and I remember Gary saying that he would work out the details after the meeting. I only put in my notes the "free event" part, as 'working out the details' is an obvious corollary (to me, anyway). I didn't put in that the cost would be shared because I don't remember hearing that, but I do remember Gary saying he had to look at the numbers - which, to me, is again obvious. In any case, cost-sharing was a surprise to some, and people reacted.

<rant (personal) on>
Myself, I think that if additional people show interest in the sport - regardless of who is running the school, or the event, or whatever - then the people who are leaders in the sport should do things to help draw them into the sport. Most of us - I hope all of us - do try to encourage new people at an event, or on a forum, etc., but what we are talking about is ways to support that encouragement process. A "free event" for taking the school (or whatever) does that. A "$20-off" coupon is a compromise that will not do that in my opinion, so I do not support that.

I'd love it if there was no need for a CASC-OR-run autoslalom school - that each club with a Solo2 program would have the resources and ability to run their own school(s). However, that isn't the case. Only a minority of clubs run their own school, and demand exceeds supply AFAIK. So, clubs have to work with the CASC-OR school, for the betterment of the sport. Myself, I'd want every Solo2 school - regardless of who puts it on - to give a free event coupon good for any Solo2 event, put on by any club. It doesn't matter to me who pays for it as long as it isn't the person we're trying to encourage - it isn't like the clubs are competing with each other, right?
<rant off>

[sjd]

As per 9.9.1:

Catalytic converters and thermal reactors may be replaced with aftermarket units or removed.

So, having 1 or 0 cats is legal for SS.

Also, 9.9.3:

Removal of, or use of any alternate air cleaner assembly is permitted. Cold air induction upstream of the air cleaner is allowed. On vehicles so equipped, the duct between the air flow/mass sensor and the throttle body may be changed, the replaced duct work must serve no other purpose beyond that of a duct. This section of duct work is considered part of the air cleaner assembly.

Now, I do not to influence your prep thoughts, but this puts you at 7 points. I would see if you can increase the spring in one end of the car, and only use 1 sway bar, or seriously think about the header.

You've got me thinking...

I have the header plus it makes great power on these cars (actually a header/exhaust and CAI makes about 20 horsepower and 25 lb-ft of torque to the rear wheels) but I am going to research other sway bar ideas. Thanks Pete.

[Pete@Marcor]

You've got me thinking...

I have the header plus it makes great power on these cars (actually a header/exhaust and CAI makes about 20 horsepower and 25 lb-ft of torque to the rear wheels) but I am going to research other sway bar ideas. Thanks Pete.

:) That's what I am here for.

That is a significant increase in power and torque.

What coilovers and sway bars are you using?

If the shocks can take it, change your spring rate, and use the adjustable sway bar on the other end. Meaning, if only the front bar is adjustable, increase the rear spring, and change to the aftermarket front bar.

If you look at it closely, the PAX numbers are 2.34% better in SS than in SP. Are you going to go 1.4 seconds faster (on a 60 second course) with the 2 sway bars compared to 1?

[sjd]

:) That's what I am here for.

That is a significant increase in power and torque.

What coilovers and sway bars are you using?

If the shocks can take it, change your spring rate, and use the adjustable sway bar on the other end. Meaning, if only the front bar is adjustable, increase the rear spring, and change to the aftermarket front bar.

If you look at it closely, the PAX numbers are 2.34% better in SS than in SP. Are you going to go 1.4 seconds faster (on a 60 second course) with the 2 sway bars compared to 1?

I'm going to be using the Mazdaspeed coilovers. They are made by Eibach, are stainless steel and height/damping adjustable. The spring rates are 300lbs front and 175 lbs rear. I get Mazda parts for a really, really good price. :D

As for sway bars, I was looking at the Mazdaspeed RX-8 set or Hotckis adjustable set. But now I am looking just an RX-8 front sway bar. Removing the rear sway bar would cost me a me a point correct?

As for PAX, a lower is always better. :)

[Tashko]

Hey, you guys are OT! :p

[Pete@Marcor]

Hey, you guys are OT! :p

Isn't THIS more relevant than the other stuff in this thread? :rolleyes:

[finboy]

Sounds like a simple mis-understanding to me.

If the club fee is $40, CASC provides $20 of it to the club via a coupon that somebody attending the school receives, the school attendee pays the other $20. The club receives $40 for said school attendee.

Why all the fuss? :confused:

#14, it isn't a free entry to an event then...

the wording or details have to be updated

personally.. i'd say clubs currently do their own thing about promoting their events and have no external issues getting newbies out

some feel that regional events DO have an issue with attendance, so make the free entry/disount coupon or whatever the perk is.. tied to a regional event

[Pete@Marcor]

I'm going to be using the Mazdaspeed coilovers. They are made by Eibach, are stainless steel and height/damping adjustable. The spring rates are 300lbs front and 175 lbs rear. I get Mazda parts for a really, really good price. :D

As for sway bars, I was looking at the Mazdaspeed RX-8 set or Hotckis adjustable set. But now I am looking just an RX-8 front sway bar. Removing the rear sway bar would cost me a me a point correct?

As for PAX, a lower is always better. :)

Any modification to a sway bar, the bushing or the end link will cost you 1 point per end.

Yes, I know that the Mazda Motorsports program is very good.

[Kreutz73]

What are the details about the FI rule changes?

[Black Shadow]

I'm going to be using the Mazdaspeed coilovers. They are made by Eibach, are stainless steel and height/damping adjustable. The spring rates are 300lbs front and 175 lbs rear.

[2 cents]

175 at the rear doesn't sound like much. I think you'll get better results leaving the front bar alone and replacing the rear one with an adjustable if you're going to stick with those spring rates. While I'm sure you could get a higher rate spring the damping wouldn't be well matched. The KYB's on my stock springs are way too stiff and it makes set up changes really hard to interpret. It's like trying to figure out what tie to wear with a suit that doesn't fit properly, band-aide at best. Get a nice lively back end and your 2007 might start to feel more like an NA. ;)

[/2 cents]

[sjd]

[2 cents]

175 at the rear doesn't sound like much. I think you'll get better results leaving the front bar alone and replacing the rear one with an adjustable if you're going to stick with those spring rates. While I'm sure you could get a higher rate spring the damping wouldn't be well matched. The KYB's on my stock springs are way too stiff and it makes set up changes really hard to interpret. It's like trying to figure out what tie to wear with a suit that doesn't fit properly, band-aide at best. Get a nice lively back end and your 2007 might start to feel more like an NA. ;)

[/2 cents]

The NC Miata doesn't need a lot of spring rate, even off the shelf JIC's are only 335 F 279 R and CSP spec JIC's are 670 F and 391 R. However, a soft suspension is the car's biggest weakness. I need to read up more about selecting a proper sway bar, the stock sizes are 21 front and 12 rear. There are front bars up to 33mm available and rears up to 21mm.

As for starting to feel like an NA, the NC is finally coming into its own in Solo2, winning CS and CSP at the SCCA national level and thanks to the new Cosworth supercharger kit is starting to make an appearance in SM2.

[finboy]

#14, it isn't a free entry to an event then...

the wording or details have to be updated

personally.. i'd say clubs currently do their own thing about promoting their events and have no external issues getting newbies out

some feel that regional events DO have an issue with attendance, so make the free entry/disount coupon or whatever the perk is.. tied to a regional event

on the subject of trying to get more people out, and with the change to the Novice/Rookie requirements..

giving out discount coupons at the school might be ok, but if the Regional Director contacted the club directors, and generated discount coupons for "rookie" discount entry coupons (at "away" events).... more club only types might do the tour

[finboy]

ohhhh..... for the overall winner.. use BOTH backup times and pax

(yes it's a pita to manage the math) but it'd even be a more fair way to do it


has it been done before? or has it always been one or the other??

[Pete@Marcor]

ohhhh..... for the overall winner.. use BOTH backup times and pax

(yes it's a pita to manage the math) but it'd even be a more fair way to do it


has it been done before? or has it always been one or the other??

I think it has always been one or the other.

I am not sure I understand. PAX has been the primary points measuring tool recently. I personally prefer it to a back up time, but that is just me.

Once a tie through PAX has occurred, are you suggesting that we then use the back up scores? It is highly unlikely to have an overall tie with PAX.

[Black Shadow]

I remember the backup time 'dog and pony show'. Not fun. It's like F1 team orders; takes away from the competition.

Pax is a good system. It lets the really fast guys have a reasonably fair fight, leaves the class wins for those just out to have fun. No matter how you structure the championship it's going to be the same people at the top. I'd just prefer it to be a simple head to head fight than playing games with backup times.

[finboy]

2 reasons why i'm suggeting using both pax and backup to formulate the overall

-our climate (temperature/wetness factor)
-the venue size
-course designs
-low grip vs high grip lots

-lack of competition (for backup)
-only used for class winners

ideally.. the top drivers should come up on top, but we don't have ideal conditions all the time...

[tanney]

I remember the backup time 'dog and pony show'. Not fun. Yep, just find a class with no one in it and take the Overall Championship. It doesn't matter, be the slowest driver in the field, in an SS Class car. All you need to do is set two really close times instead of going as fast as you can.

Whatever, bring it on!

[Pete@Marcor]

What are the details about the FI rule changes?

Well, the core of the problem is that if one has a factory FI car, and gets to the same point from adding a FI setup to a NA car, you end up with different points being assessed.

Take a Subaru RS and a WRX, and do forged pistons, head work, turbo work, injectors, etc...

If you start with different cars, but end up with the same one, you will get "charged" a different amount of prep points. This needs to be changed and addressed.

[Kreutz73]

So what's the result or recommendation? What are the changes to the Prep system or classing to make them equal?

Well, the core of the problem is that if one has a factory FI car, and gets to the same point from adding a FI setup to a NA car, you end up with different points being assessed.

Take a Subaru RS and a WRX, and do forged pistons, head work, turbo work, injectors, etc...

If you start with different cars, but end up with the same one, you will get "charged" a different amount of prep points. This needs to be changed and addressed.

[Tashko]

So what's the result or recommendation? What are the changes to the Prep system or classing to make them equal?

You're coming to DMOD is the result!! :D

[Marsh]

So what's the result or recommendation? What are the changes to the Prep system or classing to make them equal?

My understanding (and admittedly I don't pay close attention to FI rules) is that cars that have added FI setups to non-FI engines (ie: you) won't be affected, but cars with factory FI setups may be able to get away with a few less points for their turbo system mods.

[Pete@Marcor]

My understanding (and admittedly I don't pay close attention to FI rules) is that cars that have added FI setups to non-FI engines (ie: you) won't be affected, but cars with factory FI setups may be able to get away with a few less points for their turbo system mods.

I think the plan is to make it so that the OEM FI cars now only get charged what an OEM NA car gets charged, not more.

[mikewolf]

No, Make it the other way around so Paul has to run in mod class!

Also, I forgot to ad in my petition to make sawzall work allowable in SP.

[13inches]

Also, I forgot to ad in my petition to make sawzall work allowable in SP.

Sure, but you have to run with the sawzall in the car...... and runnning!

;)

[Kreutz73]

I've been toying with trying slicks and going to DMOD anyways. ;)


at least i'll have the weight to heat the slicks up. :D

[Gwoody27]

Wow, I am impressed with all of the interest and input. My goal is to have all issues resolved by Jan 1 and the new rulebook with the final wording for 2009 published by then, so that everyone has time to prep for next season. This will include wording for FI cars which is underway but not yet finished. Pete Mills is the rules Autoslalom Committee lead and expert so take his input and answers as the gospel. Stay tuned for other details.

One of my jobs as director is to increase the interest and attendance at autoslalom events across Ontario, without messing around with what clubs are doing already. I strongly believe that there are interested people out there and that if they knew about the sport they would try it and get hooked. We will advertise an autoslalom schoole and give attendees a $20.00discount coupon to attend a future event. I will use it to promote only those clubs who are willing to accept it and not others so if your club doesn't like the idea ten have the solo Director contact me and I will be sure to leave your name off the coupon.

It is good to know that there is so many good ideas out there. Keep them coming, please.

Gary Wood,
CASC-OR Autoslalom Director

[Gwoody27]

OK here is a new idea for the 2009 CASC-OR Mobil1 Autoslalom series. For 2009 there will be 2 new prizes for Fastest Time of the Series (FTS). One will be for all stock classes and one for all other classes.

We will take the best raw time from all events and add them together. If you miss an event you will get to use the average time of the top 10 fastest in your category (stock or other). Lowest time wins and this person will really be the fastest.

Details about the prizes will follow later.

By the way, the Change CRAFTER Services Interclub Challenge will take place again in 2009. In 2008 more than $1000.00 was distributed to 4 teams. In 2009 $$ will be distributed to the top 5 teams, so get your team ready. Details will be posted soon.

[Gwoody27]

OK, here are the details for the 2009 Interclub Challenge. I sincerely hope your club will enter a team.

[Marsh]

OK here is a new idea for the 2009 CASC-OR Mobil1 Autoslalom series. For 2009 there will be 2 new prizes for Fastest Time of the Series (FTS). One will be for all stock classes and one for all other classes.

BAM! :cool:

[13inches]

BAM! :cool:

Now all you need to do is bring a stock car to the events.....
:rolleyes:

[mikewolf]

OK here is a new idea for the 2009 CASC-OR Mobil1 Autoslalom series. For 2009 there will be 2 new prizes for Fastest Time of the Series (FTS). One will be for all stock classes and one for all other classes.

We will take the best raw time from all events and add them together. If you miss an event you will get to use the average time of the top 10 fastest in your category (stock or other). Lowest time wins and this person will really be the fastest.

Details about the prizes will follow later.


I love that idea.

[Kreutz73]

OK here is a new idea for the 2009 CASC-OR Mobil1 Autoslalom series. For 2009 there will be 2 new prizes for Fastest Time of the Series (FTS). One will be for all stock classes and one for all other classes.

We will take the best raw time from all events and add them together. If you miss an event you will get to use the average time of the top 10 fastest in your category (stock or other). Lowest time wins and this person will really be the fastest.

Details about the prizes will follow later.


Awesome!

hey... can we back date this for the last say 5 or so years??

[Slowpoke]

Hmm... maybe I need to get myself some new A6's...

[Black Shadow]

BAM! :cool:

I will make you earn it. (Fair competititon, but still tough I promise)

[Tashko]

I don't get it but I'm sure I'll win it...;)

mmm...265's baby :D

[mikewolf]

Does anyone think it would make more sense to group Stock and SS for one trophy and then SP and Mod for the other? It doens't really concern me as I will be in mod, but I think SS cars are much closer to stock than mod

[Pete@Marcor]

Does anyone think it would make more sense to group Stock and SS for one trophy and then SP and Mod for the other? It doens't really concern me as I will be in mod, but I think SS cars are much closer to stock than mod

The problem is that an SS car is closer in speed potential to an SP car than a Stock car. We just have not had a lot of SS guys come out lately.

I would like that they are grouped together, as I am considering a move to SS, but I don't think that would be very fair to the Stock group.

Just me $0.02 worth.

[mikewolf]

In most of the events last year, the fastest stock class time was faster than the fastest SS class time. Considering how open our SP rules are (addition of forced induction) I would say that the speed potential of SS is closer to stock.

[Gwoody27]

Good point Mike but for 2009 let's try Stock and Prepared groupings . I did some work before suggesting this to work out how to score and do the math. The goal here is to find out who are the fastest drivers in each group for the full series. Ideally you would want to count only their actual times and not averages. There are relatively few people who make it to all events so some substitution is needed, but not too much or else someone who attends few events could win. That's the reason that the idea of using only 2 average scores was created. Take a look the attached 2008 results and get ready to try to beat Paul and Pete. Can anyone do it ??????????

Gary Wood

[mikewolf]

Sounds good. Either way, I like it and I will try to catch Paul.

[yellowhotshoe]

THAT is a really cool twist to the scoring Gary.

Hmmm, now how can I convince my wife that I need to spend another $3g's on front end and brakes...oh, tires too!:rolleyes:

[max attack]

THAT is a really cool twist to the scoring Gary.

Hmmm, now how can I convince my wife that I need to spend another $3g's on front end and brakes...oh, tires too!:rolleyes:

Craig I think thats an easy one,simply bill her for your parenting(babysitting really but they hate that word)while she's been out of country working.:)

3g's eh,that is a bit pricey-more than my entire drivetrain in fact.:p

[Tashko]

So you have to do 5 of 7 events to have any chance for the FTS by avoiding that 100 score?

Also, I think it might require a different mix up of classes depending on their speed rather than grouping prep levels. Some stock classes are faster than some xSS classes, that kind of thing.

[Kreutz73]

So you have to do 5 of 7 events to have any chance for the FTS by avoiding that 100 score?

Also, I think it might require a different mix up of classes depending on their speed rather than grouping prep levels. Some stock classes are faster than some xSS classes, that kind of thing.

A little more complicated (or maybe not) but we could do it based on best 4 of 7 or however the series is scored, and instead of using actual time, use % of FTD. 100 points for FTD, and the other drivers get the % score of their time vs FTD. Then, to help smooth out the classing and make it a little better for the SS or other underdog classes, take the FTD score out of 100 and add it to their their PAX #.

If you got FTD and 95.0 pax you'd get 195 points. Or, if you did a 50 sec run and FTD was 48, and you had PAX you would get 196 points.

Just thinking out loud.

[yellowhotshoe]

Craig I think thats an easy one,simply bill her for your parenting(babysitting really but they hate that word)while she's been out of country working.

3g's eh,that is a bit pricey-more than my entire drivetrain in fact.
Yesterday 09:40 PM

That's for a front spindle change to improve SAI, the spindle change means new brakes all around, and re-locate the steering rack. Then I might have as much front grip as you :rolleyes: you should NEVER have let me drive your car....

I could just go ahead and do it while my wife's away, but then I wouldn't have a car to drive after...I'm sure she would E-bay it after the divorce:eek:

[max attack]

That's for a front spindle change to improve SAI, the spindle change means new brakes all around, and re-locate the steering rack. Then I might have as much front grip as you :rolleyes: you should NEVER have let me drive your car....

I could just go ahead and do it while my wife's away, but then I wouldn't have a car to drive after...I'm sure she would E-bay it after the divorce:eek:


Umm sorry?

Front grips not my problem,trying to improve the rear sure is.;)

[Ziploc]

Wait, fastest time of the series? Aren't some courses shorter than others?

EDIT: Unless you mean cumulative.

[Gwoody27]

yes, it is cumulative

[Tashko]

I didn't feel like starting a new thread so thought I'd pop this in here.

Gary, any chance we could add peoples club on the 2009 results? I was just looking at the 2008 results and realised I didn't know what club people were competing under.

Thanks.

[Gwoody27]

Good, we can add the person's club affiliation to the results.