canadians opposed auto bailout

[thgear]

this is definetly a delicate issue

http://www.wheels.ca/reviews/article/530774

on the one hand i think that such a large job-giving infrastructure should be kept alive because if it fails no one is going to come out on top

on the other hand its their own damn fault for not building cars right for so many years.


however i do have a question, if GM goes out of business, how long would people be able to repair/maintain their domestic vehicles?

[DareBee]

if GM goes out of business, how long would people be able to repair/maintain their domestic vehicles?

Maintenance / repair will likely not be much of an issue.
Look at what is still available for AMC

[thgear]

Maintenance / repair will likely not be much of an issue.
Look at what is still available for AMC

yeah but you dont have half the nation driving them.

[ScotcH]

The Guv'ment said they (as in we, the taxpayers) would pay to fix your shitty car if GM goes under.

[drpepper]

I don't see the point of a bailout on the US or Cdn side of things. Its not like they'll just disappear if they go bankrupt and millions of people will instantly be out of a job. Don't quote me on the numbers, but aren't they still putting out something like 200k cars per year? All of that production wont just evaporate because they're gone. The Euro, Asian, and even Indian car makers are just waiting for them to go belly up so they can buy the US auto-makers out along with their production at a reasonable price. Its smarter than absorbing them now and taking on all of their regular debt, bailout debt, and union stupidity. The faster they fail, the faster they'll get back on their feet under another banner. They'll just be traded on the Nikkei instead of the nyse lol.

[ADAM]

its not sustainable in the long run..so they should let it be and go under

short term pain for some long term sustainable gain

[Taylor]

Don't quote me on the numbers, but aren't they still putting out something like 200k cars per year?

GM sells like 3 million cars a year (this is down from almost 5 million).. but maybe 200K is their Canadian sales figures..

[thgear]

i guess this is the perfect time to buy a truck :)

[Slowpoke]

http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2009/04/09/lawenza-pension-gm.html?ref=rss

I'm not sure what the issue is...? These folks paid into CPP. They'll be entitled to the same as the rest of us that did. No problem there.

If McGuinty starts talking about bailing out the Auto Worker pension plans... well... the one thing the Americans do better than we do is that they assassinate their politicians more often.

[23Racer]

The Ontario Government, about 15 years ago, started a combined pension fund that was to be supported by large companies in Ontario. This was after a few highly publicized large companies going under and leaving their retirees S.O.L. The monies paid into this fund, by the large unionized companies were to be used to support unionized workers pension plans if the parent company went under and was unable to keep paying the retired employees. GM, in a highly political move (lots of threats to leave Ontario) received a waiver from the Ontario government and never had to fund their pension plans to the same level as almost all the other companies. GM was deemed to big to fail.

Now if GM goes bankrupt the Ontario Government, thats you and me, is on the hook to pay out these pension plans. I read a report that showed it would cost the Ontario taxpayer almost $4 billion to fund.

I am not even going to get into the situation of special treatment for GM, I am not going to get into the issue of starting this fund in the first place, what i am concerned with is the inevitably higher taxes I will have to pay to support GM workers to have a nice retirement, when I am responsible for taking care of myself as well.

What GM Management has done, enabled by short sighted elected officials, is almost criminal. They have destroyed a great company by forgeting that customers are smart and they remember the cr@p you sold them for the last 20 years. They will not be fooled again. GM made its own bed by building unpopular cars and signing agreements with their employees that they couldn't afford.

So what do we do? Let the company go bankrupt and put the Ontario taxpayer on the hook for the pension plans for the workers or try to prop them up until GM can continue to stagger on its own 2 feet.

I am not even going to get into Chrysler.......grrrrrrrr.

[AndrewR]

Should be like CPP - you pay in, you get paid out.

Anything else is unfair.

[slucas]

The demise of the British car industry is so analogous.

I'd like to support the north American industry but I don't buy new and I don't trust American used.

As for propping up the pension plans of defunct businesses, why don't they just prop up the CPP, then we're all in the same boat.
78 years old and working at Home Depot. The Golden Years my a$$!!!

[timewarp9]

Maybe we should cut the wages so that Teachers and Firefighters and Police and Public Service employees and anyone else who collects a tax payer sponsored pension cannot retire decently either. That will save the tax payer big money!!!

Why pick on the autoworkers, lets get everyone in the same boat so that everybody can celebrate their underfunded CPP retirement.


Jon

(self employed no pension plan - freedom 95 or death which could be around the same time if I luck out)

[Taylor]

Well if GM was considered a public service then your point would stand.

This is interesting about the exemption that GM had that certainly impacts my opinion on the matter. Still anything Ontario or Canada does is going to have little impact in 'saving' GM... unless of course the US bails on them and we want to somehow turn a 6 billion dollar bailout into 60 billion dollars in exchange for more manufacturing... though frankly that'd probably be just about the dumbest thing anyone would ever do.

Who knows maybe the new guy will get their crap in gear. He's got about 80 days to figure it out and frankly with billions and 80 days you should be able to cure cancer. :)

Bloody corporations are going to be the death of us.

[timewarp9]

Whats the difference? If tax payer money is funding an autoworker pension or a public service employee pension it is still a burden on the tax payer.

Teachers seem to retire well and nobody gripes about it, but those who do honest work and pay taxes and do community work and raise children are not allowed a decent retirement because the government f'd up in 1992 and cowered to the threat of a big corporation?

The government made the situation what it is today by handcuffing the manufacturers in allowing imports in and not negotiating a fair trade agreement so we cannot sell Canadian manufactured products in other countries. What did they think was going to happen. Gee lets get more cars produced than we really need and then have the profit from offshore companies get sent offshore! Who cares if we lose domestic companies and jobs at least we have lots of cars and the politicians are heroes for bringing new factories to town.

Anybody could see the writing on the wall years ago. Price discounts, rebates, free upgrades etc. to make a sale. That is not a sustainable situation. Why did GMAC stop financing? They knew what was coming.

Jon

[Taylor]

Because funding the pension plan is a fixed cost. Bailing out carries far more risk, it's more than likely a bandaid solution.

Besides it's not like *all* the jobs will disappear permanently. GM will get parted out.

Anyhow I still hope they can bring the Volt to market but at this rate, who knows...

[timewarp9]

Well the damage is done and it remains to be seen on how things are re-structured. We will lose jobs as there is too much global capacity and to try and protect the domestic market in a global economy is too much.

I wonder if the Corvette will survive.

But, the pension thing bugs me as the Government let them get away with not funding it and are now balking at covering the shortfall. What kind of retirement can they expect now and how are these workers expected to recover if they do not have what they were promised and that they planned their lives around. Either way it will become a tax payers burden.

Jon

[thgear]

Whats the difference? If tax payer money is funding an autoworker pension or a public service employee pension it is still a burden on the tax payer.

Teachers seem to retire well and nobody gripes about it, but those who do honest work and pay taxes and do community work and raise children are not allowed a decent retirement because the government f'd up in 1992 and cowered to the threat of a big corporation?



one is a budgeted burden

the other is not

if i came to your door tommorow and said "give me five grand, NOW", and you had to, by law, how happy would you be about that?

Its an expense no one saw coming, and no one, ever, wants to pay unforseen expenses. :)

[timewarp9]

I know the scenarios differ. But really, the taxpayer funds a lot of retirement pensions. So after the autoworkers are dealt with who is next to be attacked?

The government took a huge risk and now they may be responsible for funding the pensions, which means they will reform the pension plan system and absorb some of this if it gets that far. So either way the tax base will have to support huge future obligations. And that may mean higher taxes and lower standard of living.

My stomach hurts now.

Jon

[Marsh]

Wait a minute. So the CAW has strike after strike demanding more and more money until the entire industry is completely uncompetitive and now all the people who worked just as hard and aren't in unions and don't have MASSIVE company pension plans are supposed to pay more taxes so that the union workers can enjoy their fat incomes anyway? I'm so sick of this fair working wage crap. Most janitors in CAW shops make more money than half the office staff who actually paid attention in school and got university degrees.

Where the hell is the unions accountability? So the theory here is that the workers collective bargaining can do ANYTHING with reckless disregard for what their settlement might do for long term viability of their employment base and it won't matter because if the company goes under the government will pay anyway?

[CAllen]

Wow! If only any of this were as simple as we try to make it out to be. I sure as heck don't understand all the ramifications of this deal, but I will say this much, from personal knowledge and experience...

Kitchener-Waterloo has been particularly hard hit in this economy. Among the companies closing down and the jobs lost that have contributed to our 9.1% unemployment rate ( I'm in that number myself, BTW ), are B.F. Goodrich in Cambridge, Kitchener Frame ( 2,300 jobs ), E.D. Smith, ATS, Northstar Aerospace, and Rockwell Automation. On the chopping block for lay-offs but not closure because it's only a matter of time are Toyota, Babcock and Wilcox and various IT Companies including Google, Sybase, and RIM.

Now, here's the situation for one guy in Kitchener. He owns a Tim Horton's that is directly across from Kitchener Frame. A couple of years ago, he built a new store, because the old one couldn't handle the capacity anymore. He was easily getting 1,100 customers a day from Kitchener Frame alone. However, Kitchener Frame is gone, and with it that 1,100 customers a day. He spent the money to build the new store, and now he's faced with decreased demand, bills to pay, and only a hope that Thyssen-Krupp will do something with the empty factory that they bought back for $1. If he can't make that store profitable, that means another 50-70 jobs lost, on top of the 2,300 already gone. The same holds true for the KFC, the Mac's Gas Station and several other businesses that depended on Kitchener Frame employees for a significant portion of their business.

If the auto industry goes under, it doesn't just take the auto jobs with it. It takes a great deal more than that, and estimates made by the provincial governement of 600,000 jobs lost in Ontario are probably a bit on the conservative side. I drive by the empty Kitchener Frame plant at least once a month, and since I was laid off last August, it creates an empty hollow feeling in the pit of my stomach every time. If you think I'm being sentimental, consider the cold hard numbers:

Population of Waterloo Region - 430,000
9.1% Unemployment Rate - 39,130

That's a depressing number, but add in that there are likely over 50,000 people out of work in Waterloo Region, because once you no longer qualify for E.I., you don't count on the unemployment rate, but you're still likely out of work and living on Ontario Works, and it's even worse.

I don't mind short term pain for long term gain, but since it's me that isn't likely to find a job as there's no demand for what I'm skilled at, it's a little unfair to jump on those that support keeping jobs and people working if you're secure with your job. I'd rather have found work and had the ability to support myself, but that was no longer an option. I made the decision to take advantage of Second Career Strategy and retrain for a new career. I'll graduate in December of 2010, and should be able to find work easily in the field I chose to retrain for.

It's not just auto workers we're talking about here. It's people like me, who worked as a Sales Secretary for a Website company. Consider that this is an extraordinary situation that calls for extraordinary measures. Before you complain about spending tax dollars to keep people working, ask yourself how long you'd survive if you suddenly didn't have an income anymore. If the answer is not long, you're in the same club as me.

[timewarp9]

Marshall, your opinions are similar to many others about the CAW. However, the fact is that only 7 or 8 percent of the total cost to build a car is wages.

CAW wage increases did not make the company uncompetitive. There is a global financial crisis resulting in a lack of credit to consumers so they cannot buy cars. Other problems incude over capacity, poor product planning and execution, corporate greed, government trade policies etc.

So it is easy to pin everything on the CAW as they are the most visible and like it is indicated in your post, people are jealous of the wages and benefits.

But to put it in perspective, there are many jobs that pay equally as well such as teachers, firemen, trades and construction. You are assuming that the average worker is an uneducated layperson, this is not the case as many have post secondary education.

Also, the government bail-out is actually a loan it is not free money. The banks and insurance companies got money handed to them with no strings attached, and what do they do? Give out large bonuses. AACK!

The CAW has asked for wage increases when the company is profitable. They also make concessions when it is not.

I am not a union activist, I am self employed. I think it is necessary to keep these companies going, although cut back to meet demand, and that the current and future retired workers should not suffer for a situation that is not their fault.

Jon

[AndrewR]

This is all well and good but..... No-one is buying their cars.

Just look at all the lots like downsview where months of car sales are sitting, rusting away. Dealers are having fire sales on the stuff they have to clear their inventory.

It is fine and dandy to "prop up" the auto industry, and give them money, but still, who is going to buy the product?

If even Toyota and Honda are having layoffs, what chance does an "American" car company have.....

[tanney]

We shouldn't have to "bail out" a company whose greed and lack of foresight got them into this mess.

GM should be dissolved. Now, similar to what happened in F1 with Honda/Brawn, a (coop group perhaps) bands together to take over one or two lines (with the help o the so called "bail-out money" in the form of loans) that they use to manufacture a newer, better, greener(?) automobile or two. Slowly these multiple individual companies grow as the public, (except for those WalMart hounds for who it's all about saving 9 cents on a $300 purchase), see a local, new and interesting vehicle. Something perhaps revolutionary and REASONABLY PRICED, and they buy. First one, then a second car is sold, production in increased, people are hired back (at a reasonable wage that reflect their education and abilities).

Business around it grow, communities grow and best of all the former greedy "executive" is the one unemployed. You know that one that just gave himself an two or three hundred million dollar bonus a few months ago.

May sound too simple or too complicated, but take a look around and say that it won't work? It sure can't hurt!

[Adam Lipcsey]

The proverbial "Tim Hortons across the car factory" now being part of the failing enterprises, does not break my heart.
The owner of the coffee shop saw a business opportunity when the factory was full of workers and set up a case to make $$. Everybody invlolved who took employment or took a business opportunity should have weighed what happens if the factory goes down.
They all depended on how well the vehicles were selling. And that's not a business model for a doughnut shop.

[Slowpoke]

Also, the government bail-out is actually a loan it is not free money. The banks and insurance companies got money handed to them with no strings attached, and what do they do? Give out large bonuses. AACK!

When the company that you loan money to goes bankrupt and pulls out of your country, how is that loan going to be paid back?

CAW doesn't want to yield? Fine. Big 3 Canadian restructuring under bankruptcy protection should involve farming out the manufacturing of their vehicles to idle Canadian Honda and Toyota lines. They'll build them cheaper and here in Canada than the Big 3 did.

Stop using my tax dollars to prop up dead companies and their labour force that is unwilling to change with market realities. If the company deserves rescue, Canadians positioned to survive the recession will do it with their net income, not their tax dollars, thank you very much.

[23Racer]

Get ready Ontario residents. It looks like we will have to fund the generous GM unionized pensions..........

Quoting sources who had been briefed on the GM plans, the Times said the goal was to prepare for a fast "surgical" bankruptcy.
The newspaper said preparations are aimed at assuring a GM bankruptcy filing is ready if the company is unable to reach agreement with bondholders to exchange roughly $28 billion in debt into equity in GM and with the United Automobile Workers union.
A plan under consideration would create a new company that would buy the "good" assets of GM after the carmaker files for bankruptcy, the Times said.
Less desirable assets, including unwanted brands, factories and health care obligations, would be left in the old company, which could be liquidated over several years, according to the paper.
Treasury officials are examining one potential outcome in which the viable GM enters and exits bankruptcy protection in as little as two weeks, using $5 billion to $7 billion in federal financing, a person briefed on the matter told the Times.


I am not even going to comment. I will just have to forward to my golden years working at the golden arches.......

[Adam Lipcsey]

How many of these car do you see on the road:
Ford 500
Ford Freestyle
Dodge Aspen
Crysler Pacifica
Pontiac Aztec.

Billions of dollars wasted development money and were not selling at the best of times.

[slucas]

Even the Teachers Pension Fund is a couple of billion short so we can count on anteing up for that in the future. After contributing to all these pension funds I'm looking at a nice little cardboard box I can live in down by the river.
It's within walking distance of the "arches" where I'll be working with Eric , who will no doubt be bragging about how he's the fastest server around.:D

[Trackside]

Man are you ever lucky to have a cardboard box. I am going to be lucky if I can find a year old Saturday Star for my protection :D

[23Racer]

Scott, you have it slightly wrong, I would have been the fastest server around, but John changed the rules and scr#wed me over, :D. Besides I have a tent and 3 E-Z Ups as well, :p.

Eric

[CAllen]

You missed the entire point. Losing auto jobs isn't JUST about losing auto jobs. It's about losing a lot more jobs. You don't have to feel bad for the guy that owns the Tim Horton's, but why should the 70 some odd employees of that store lose their jobs because of anger over mismanaged car companies? They're COMPLETELY innocent of that, but they'll pay the price anyways. They're not a union, a mismanaged company, or a bunch of high-paid politicians. They're just people, and they deserve better. Ask any waitress in a restaurant in Oshawa.

As for the proverbial Tim Horton's it's a real store, although I don't have any knowledge of any negative impact to his business. I used it only as an example, and have no information that it's experiencing any real difficulty financially.

Whatever you do, don't think big picture. After all, that would mean you'd have to consider more than just yourself and your own anger.

Colene

The proverbial "Tim Hortons across the car factory" now being part of the failing enterprises, does not break my heart.
The owner of the coffee shop saw a business opportunity when the factory was full of workers and set up a case to make $$. Everybody invlolved who took employment or took a business opportunity should have weighed what happens if the factory goes down.
They all depended on how well the vehicles were selling. And that's not a business model for a doughnut shop.

[TFB]

You missed the entire point. Losing auto jobs isn't JUST about losing auto jobs. It's about losing a lot more jobs. You don't have to feel bad for the guy that owns the Tim Horton's, but why should the 70 some odd employees of that store lose their jobs because of anger over mismanaged car companies? They're COMPLETELY innocent of that, but they'll pay the price anyways.


Auto workers, auto workers, auto workers.... you'd think that the only sector suffering job losses is the auto sector.

What about the loss of IT sector jobs to offshore regions where wages are lower? Why aren't we being asked to prop up those IT companies so we can keep those jobs here too? After all, IT people drink a whole lot of coffee, so if nothing else we should do it for all the Tim Hortons employees out there.

How about general manufacturing jobs, also being off-shored to third world countries? Last I heard, they too frequent Tim Hortons. Maybe the taxpayers (at least the ones still working that is) should go on the hook to prop them up too.

Ditto the oil sands workers and lumber workers. Those sectors are also feeling the pinch, lumber because of punitive tariffs on exports to the US, and oil because, well, prices seem to have dipped somewhat, haven't they?

There's a big shake-up happening across many sectors of the Canadian economy. A lot of it has to do with mismanagement, over-production, inability to appeal to consumer wants, and so on. But the biggest factor is having to compete with low-cost workers in off-shore production facilities producing the same goods that we do here with our much higher-priced labour force.

Maybe it is time to let the market shake itself out. We can't compete on cost for unskilled labour such as that used in our general manufacturing assembly facilites, auto plants included. Either the cost of wages and benefits will need to drop dramatically in those facilities, or we will be forced to give up that kind of industry to off-shore locations.

I don't think that the working taxpayers should be forced to pay because workers in threatened sectors refuse to lower their wage demands to meet the new realities.

[MDeeez]

Maybe it is time to let the market shake itself out. We can't compete on cost for unskilled labour such as that used in our general manufacturing assembly facilites, auto plants included. Either the cost of wages and benefits will need to drop dramatically in those facilities, or we will be forced to give up that kind of industry to off-shore locations.

I don't think that the working taxpayers should be forced to pay because workers in threatened sectors refuse to lower their wage demands to meet the new realities.

The biggest problem is that the unions aren't there to represent the workers anymore. They are a business out to support their own fat wallets. I like unions and feel they have a place in the workforce but they've forgotten that the companies have to make money so their workers have a job. They are finding out the hard way about the golden rule. He who has the gold rules and it's not the unions in spite of what they might think.

[Adam Lipcsey]

The biggest reason why people fighting for jobs is the big elephant in the room that nobody dares talking about because it is 'politically incorrect'.
And it is women entering the workfoce.
In the last 50-60 years - within mere two generations - women first have been allowed and accepted to go to work, but the value of labor went so far down that now they must work too in order to survive!
Today, it is rare exception that a single worker can sustain a family.

Combune this with techological advancement, such as automation and robotization, then you have a social disaster.

[feds]

Let us not forget that GM and Chrysler were both on a glide path to insolvency BEFORE the financial markets collapse.

Chrysler did it to themselves buy building a "sales bank" (building cars at a rate greater than the selling rate, and storing the inventory) even when they had decent sellers. Mismanagement by Daimler and Cerberus has lead Chrysler to where they are. If the economy hadn't collapsed, Cerberus would currently be negotiating the sale of Chrysler to a chinese/indian manufacturer looking for a US dealer network.

GM chose in 2003, when gas jumped from ~$0.70 to ~$1.00, to pull development resources from small cars and crossovers in an effort to pull the GMT900 program (FS trucks/SUV's) forward. The rationale was that SUV's and trucks would bring more profits in the short term, and small cars would come later. This is also the time I started looking for a new job, not at GM.

History shows that this gamble failed to pay off. "Auto Insiders" (mostly GM employees) will tell you that no one could predict oil would jump like it did in the summer. However, that view ignores the fact that Toyota, Nissan, and Honda ALL launched new, nice B-cars into North America right about the time oil prices spiked.

When was GM's sales peak? When was Chrysler's? Why would anyone with any business sense prop these companies up? Oh right, anyone with any buisiness sense would have a real job and not be a politician.

[MazdaMatt]

TFB - loved your post.

Many industries have failed before, we don't go crying about them. They have also injured related industries when they dropped and we don't go crying about them either.

Life goes on, industries change.

A basic issue here is that someone with the exact same education and job as me in China can barely afford to pay his share of his delapidated community dwelling, but I own a car and I'm paying off my house quickly. The Chinese guy is no worse at what he does and no less valuable, but for some reason we demand (and receieve) higher wages here.

Non-skilled jobs in the auto industry are filtering into Mexican plants because they don't bitch and whine about an "average" manufacturing wage and they don't feel that because they make cars they should be paid highly respectable salaries and own houses and boats and cottages and cars.

Eventually we're all going down. One industry at a time. Be it from technology moving forward (bailout the horse shoe and wagon wheel industry!) or from foreign under-cutting (IT jobs going to poor people in india instead of wealthy people in canada)

[CAllen]

On this point, I can't disagree with you. It does sound horribly sexist, but really it's true. The addition of new workers to the workforce after World War II did create a higher unemployment rate, and cause issues with availability of work. However, the present problems have less to do with women entering the workforce, and a lot more to do with globalization as opposed to support for the local economy. Failure to support local economies first results in the loss of quality jobs, undermines the financial well-being of a community and also results in the situation we have now, where the local economy is controlled by the global economy to a much larger extent than if the local economy was the driving part of the community's economy.

When you fail to buy from local industries, and support the Walmart's of the world, you lose quality jobs and put the other jobs in danger due to the lack of control over the economy. Convenient is not necessarily financially or economically viable for the long term, as we're now learning. Give Wendell Berry a read sometime, and you'll be amazed at how much you didn't see that you should have seen in the economic shift to globalization.

Colene

The biggest reason why people fighting for jobs is the big elephant in the room that nobody dares talking about because it is 'politically incorrect'.
And it is women entering the workfoce.
In the last 50-60 years - within mere two generations - women first have been allowed and accepted to go to work, but the value of labor went so far down that now they must work too in order to survive!
Today, it is rare exception that a single worker can sustain a family.

Combune this with techological advancement, such as automation and robotization, then you have a social disaster.

[Adam Lipcsey]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090417.wchryslerLetter0417/BNStory/Front

And yet, as recent as Wednesday this week, the CAW continues to ignore this clear mandate from the government stating that they will not go any further. This unwillingness to work within the government's guidelines jeopardizes the future of Chrysler and our operations in Canada. We have made several proposals to the CAW to offset these costs, without affecting base wages and pensions.

Some specific examples include: Prescription drug dispensing fees, by eliminating the cap results in estimated savings of $2.16 per hour. Elimination of out-of-province health care coverage (snowbirds), with employees and retirees assuming responsibility for any coverage results in a cost savings of $1.00 per hour.

The change from semi-private hospital room coverage to "ward" coverage saves an estimated $0.97 per hour. Elimination of life insurance for current and future employees results in a cost savings of $1.54 per hour. The reduction of shift premiums to 2.5 percent results in a cost savings of $.80 per hour. By increasing health care premiums would save an estimated $1.04 per hour.

The elimination of non-traditional benefits such as child care, legal services, tuition reimbursement, dependant scholarships and extended health care coverage (chiropractic services, massage therapy, naturopath, orthotics, etc.) results in a cost savings of $0.73 per hour. Unfortunately, the CAW has been opposed to these solutions — however, we are open to alternative ideas.

They have been getting incredible benefits - no wonder the company went bankrupt.
CAW members have been living on a different planet.

[Adam Lipcsey]

...and I cannot see that "Fix It Again Tony" is the sole solution to the problem. It would take years to certify the Italian cars for this market.
Not to mention rust-proofing...

[slucas]

They could also eliminate the 2nd week of SPA days that were instituted to require the company to hire more people to sub-in for the guys off on SPA days.
I do believe the guys on the floor would be willing to do what's needed, the problem is in thier leadership, who are of such socialist leaning they can't bring them selves to admit they are the problem. It's the gov'ts problem.

[thgear]

you are confusing socialistic ideals with the labour class revolutions of the past and present.

if these leaders were of true socialistic nature as you say, they would have aggreed to these terms a long time ago.

having the working class compete in wages with the upper class is not socialism, thats just dirty union tactics doing their thing.

[slucas]

You're quite correct Serge. A socialist would have done the right thing.

Unions do like to couch their rhetoric in socialist language but as they fight for the poor downtrodden union worker they miss the fact that in their case the poor guy is making over $50000.00 a year. Hardly downtrodden or poor.
The days of Henry Ford hiring thugs to beat up unionist are a long time ago.

[thgear]

we are stuck in the middle of a deep rooted problem.

north america, as far as i can tell, believes itself to be a capitalistic economy, then for all purposes unions should not exist, and the market should stabilize itself


on the other hand, enough people see the problem of monopolizing corporations making life hard for the little guy.

some countries revolted, while others simply introduced "social programs" (ohh how close the words socialism and social are together).

governments are afraid of overtaxing the rich guys, or simply putting a blanket salary cap. Because they fear that the smart people behind these corproations will go to other nations to do business, and lend their genius to other leaders.

hmm...

isnt that what they have done anyway?


anyway, unions have grown too large and too powerful for their own good, for a brief moment in time i had the displeasure of working in an auto parts factory as a temp-student. And believe me my displeasure had nothing to do with physical labour, it was with witnessing the behaviour of the unionized workforce and the union leaders.

having my dad work in the administrative department i got to see the white collar side of this as well.

and its just one big ****ing mess if you ask me.



whatever it is that is going to fix our problems, its going to be big, and its going to be complex, beyond the udnerstanding of any one individual.

and thats the problem, because no one will ever grasp the entire thing by themselves.

buckle up people, its going to be a weird couple of years ahead.

[Adam Lipcsey]

I had lived in a truly socialist country, where people earned pocket money amounts with no real incetive to be competitive because the benefits were institutionalized, one of which was the right to work. All other benefits were also provided for no charge: healthcare, education, extra-curricular activities: sports, music, etc.

This auto union in America was born as a result of an abusive capitalist system way back then. The benefits and concessions achieved since were great.

None of the two situations are applicable any more. Time to move on and adjust.

[TFB]

...and I cannot see that "Fix It Again Tony" is the sole solution to the problem. It would take years to certify the Italian cars for this market.
Not to mention rust-proofing...

Rust-proofing should not be a problem for Fiat. They have a long established tradition of engineering cars to irrepairably breakdown or fall apart long before serious corrosion ever has a chance sets in.

[Adam Lipcsey]

Good article, sums it up well:

http://www.wheels.ca/reviews/article/544219

[Burnsey]

Rust-proofing should not be a problem for Fiat. They have a long established tradition of engineering cars to irrepairably breakdown or fall apart long before serious corrosion ever has a chance sets in.

Now that's funny. So much so I have forwarded this thread to a Fiat drivin' co-worker. He laughed so hard that coffee came out of his nose.

And speaking of propping up failing industries, anyone care to help out Stelco/US Steel? Something on the order of 8,000 jobs have been lost over the last 15 years. Not to mention Algoma steel in Sault Ste. Marie...

I would argue the spin off effects from the demise of the steel industry in Southern Ontario would rival that of the Auto Sector...your's truly included ;)

[MazdaMatt]

At least with the steel industry I would believe claims that wages and lazy job culture have nothing to do with their failure.

[slucas]

The way the steel ind. is joined at the hip with the auto ind. I think it's safe to say that wages and lazy job culture did cause their lay-offs.

[MazdaMatt]

I'd lean more towards China's more modern processing industry and their gigantic bulk goverment steel purchases. I can go to Princess auto and buy an engine hoist, that has been manufactured and shipped from china, for less money than the weight of the steel. I have no knowledge of steel union, only that there are major outside factors screwing them.

[slucas]

The auto ind. was buying from Steelco . My point was that the less than effiecient methods of the BIG THREE was what has caused the lay-offs in the steel business.

[George]

I can go to Princess auto and buy an engine hoist, that has been manufactured and shipped from china, for less money than the weight of the steel.

Perhaps, but I'm not sure I'd want to rely on something like that for lifting engines out of cars.

[Adam Lipcsey]

In the end it came down solely to political considerations.
It is all about "matching" what the USA government was putting in in order to save an industrial image.
It would have have been the correct decision not to give a cent of taxpayers money to the car companies, but it would have appeared that the companies are written off as Canadian employers.
In the end they will no longer be a significant place of employment no matter whoever says what.
It is money thrown out of the window.

[George]

It is money thrown out of the window.

I believe so.

[TrackOut]

It is money thrown out of the window.

Indeed. People will not buy more cars if GM is subsidized to the song of 1 million $ per saved job. If GM disapeared and stopped producing cars, the other manufacturers will fill the gap, producing (better) cars in North America. Honda and Toyota do have manufacturing plants on that continent. And hiring peoples to produce the cars.

Obama was elected by the three states that have the biggest car industries. He had no choice. And Harper's government being the US's puppet just followed.

GM's (failed) try to clean its image by producing 16 new Hybrids is another demonstration of their failure. Back in the 60s they produced the lousy cars that lousy customers told them to produce. Nowadays, they do the same, the trend is about Hybrids, so they mke Hybrids. Just like the Simpsons' episode where Homr is chief of design at a car plant... Announced failure.

The green cars already exist. One of them is called a Honda Fit, or any other small European car with efficient motor, usually turbo diesel. But instead, we got heavy cars with heavy battery packs that will last only 5 years and will dumped in your backyard. Thanks GM. You got it right, once again.

[Adam Lipcsey]

Noteworthy commentary:
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/645997

None of the Ottawa MPs are questioning the decision.
The NDP is in bed with the union, the Liberals are brothers of the Ontario Gov't in power.
It's ludicrous the way they pick our pockets.