Roll bar/Cage

[Maddog]

OK, what is considered a roll bar, and what is considered a roll cage for classification purposes?

Would this setup be considered a cage or a bar?
http://www.swracecars.com/store/images/cart/ROLLBAR.JPG

[ADAM]

those are side door drag bars...not proper A arm down tubes that cages have

[ADAM]

not only that..there is no diagonal brace on the roll hoop

[Maddog]

OK..didn't answer the question..lol. Roll cage or roll bar?

[ADAM]

its a roll bar

[craig]

OK..didn't answer the question..lol. Roll cage or roll bar?

Neither, as far as the rules are concerned.

[Maddog]

Neither, as far as the rules are concerned.Please explain? Section 1.3 doesn't really say much.

[ADAM]

it doesnt meet the minimum CASC requirements that a roll bar must have..

Thats why Craig said that

[Maddog]

it doesnt meet the minimum CASC requirements that a roll bar must have..

Thats why Craig said thatAnd where are those requirements listed? If it's what section 1.3 chats about, then what is missing as it looks like everything is there that 1.3 requires.

[Slowpoke]

It does not comply with 1.3.15 for the diagonal brace requirement. It is not clear what type of tubing is used.

Your car is over 2500 lbs and will require tubing of at least:

1.75" diameter x 0.095" wall thickness tube mild steel
1.50" dia. x 0.095" thick alloy steel
1.75" dia. x 0.120" thick ERW tubing

Electrical conduit is not acceptable. ;)

Have your installer pay attention to the mounting requirements as well. What the manufacturer recommends as minimum install standards may not be to the standards required by CASC-OR.

FIA Homologated roll cages MAY be accepted by the scrutineer even if they are below those diameter / thickness / material requirements.

[ADAM]

another note...the hoop legs looked bowed in....

[ADAM]

you would have to cut the harness bar off...install the diagonal..and add another harness bar back in..

I would also deal with those bowed legs and also put in another lower horizontal bar and ditch those 2 little support bars..

this looks like a low cost bolt in drag roll bar type set up that you see at the drag strip

[Ytzman]

basicaly ditch the 2 small main hoop side impact bars ( the ones angled inward from the main hoop) and replace the with atleast one diaganal bar that goes from the bottom of one side of the main hoop to the top of the other side of the main hoop. That would classify as a roll bar. Those side bars (main hoop forward) do nothing but add weight as far as classification goes.
To be a roll cage, you would need to add a halo or front hoop, and either "X" door bars, or Nascar style door bars and I believe a dash bar.

I got a full kit from Jegs (12 point) but it's ment for drag, like the one shown, so I have to modify the design, but the changes are all straight pieces so...

Hope this helps clairify.

[Maddog]

you would have to cut the harness bar off...install the diagonal..and add another harness bar back in..This doesn't make any sense. IMO (coming from an engineering background), you'd want the horizontal/harness bar to be 1 piece. The diagonal bar would be more in compression in a roll over situation, and therefore, it being welded to the hor. bar would be fine.

I would also deal with those bowed legs and also put in another lower horizontal bar and ditch those 2 little support bars..That's just a reference pic...the downward legs on the main loop are not bowed in.

This is mild steel ERW tubing at 1.63" x .134" which has a greater material cross-sectional area than 1.75" x .120".

So basically, if I lose the 2 stubs, and put in an diagonal bar, I'm good to go.

Thanks for the info.

[Maddog]

basicaly ditch the 2 small main hoop side impact bars ( the ones angled inward from the main hoop) and replace the with atleast one diaganal bar that goes from the bottom of one side of the main hoop to the top of the other side of the main hoop. That would classify as a roll bar. Those side bars (main hoop forward) do nothing but add weight as far as classification goes.
To be a roll cage, you would need to add a halo or front hoop, and either "X" door bars, or Nascar style door bars and I believe a dash bar.

I got a full kit from Jegs (12 point) but it's kent fir drag, like the one shown, so I have to modify the design, but the changes are all straight pieces so...

Hope this helps clairify.
The 2 door bars add rigidity to the chassis.

If you got it from Jegs, then it's probably a S&W Race Cars kit which is what I pictured in my original post, and the kit I have also. I got the 10 point but the roof hoop was useless as it was too narrow and my head was pretty much resting on it. So now I'm just going with the 8-pnt part of the kit.

[Ytzman]

This doesn't make any sense. IMO (coming from an engineering background), you'd want the horizontal/harness bar to be 1 piece. The diagonal bar would be more in compression in a roll over situation, and therefore, it being welded to the hor. bar would be fine.

The harness bar is only ment for the harness, therefore it's not meant to take the loads that the diagonal bar is.


That's just a reference pic...the downward legs on the main loop are not bowed in.

This is mild steel ERW tubing at 1.63" x .134" which has a greater material cross-sectional area than 1.75" x .120".

Are you looking at getting a kit from somewhere?
If so, get the 4 point cage kit, the rest can be fabbed up easily as they should all be straight bars. The only thing I'm getting bent on mine is the door X bars, they are straight, (which is fine and legal) but I want mine to bow outward so they would have to compress during an impact.



So basically, if I lose the 2 stubs, and put in an diagonal bar, I'm good to go.

Yes, as a roll bar - But don't quote me on it.

Thanks for the info. [/QUOTE]

[Ytzman]

The 2 door bars add rigidity to the chassis.

If you got it from Jegs, then it's probably a S&W Race Cars kit which is what I pictured in my original post, and the kit I have also. I got the 10 point but the roof hoop was useless as it was too narrow and my head was pretty much resting on it. So now I'm just going with the 8-pnt part of the kit.

I thought the same with mine, but it actually tucked up nicely to the roof. I may still have to drop my seat down an inch once the padding goes on.

and yes the 2 door bars do add rigidity and maybe even a bit of safety, but as far as classification goes, nothing.

are you installing it yourself?

There is also a great thread (14+ pages long!) on cage design/building on corner-carvers.com

[Slowpoke]

This is mild steel ERW tubing at 1.63" x .134" which has a greater material cross-sectional area than 1.75" x .120".

So basically, if I lose the 2 stubs, and put in an diagonal bar, I'm good to go.


I would not personally make any such assumption if my classification and that -1 bPIP was important to me. If you're comfortable with it, go ahead. But if you're counting on the legaility, then I would Email your questions to the series Chief Scrutineer. His Email is on page 2 of the rulebook.

Forum chatter is nice, but if it's important to you, Email an official.

[Maddog]

I would not personally make any such assumption if my classification and that -1 bPIP was important to me. If you're comfortable with it, go ahead. But if you're counting on the legaility, then I would Email your questions to the series Chief Scrutineer. His Email is on page 2 of the rulebook.

Forum chatter is nice, but if it's important to you, Email an official.Well at this point it doesn't really matter because whether or not I get the -1 bPIP, it's going to put me at the bottom of SGT3-R, plus I think the car weight will be below what I thought, again, sticking me in SGT3-R. What I'm thinking right now - It's better to have something there than nothing at all.

This is what it looks like now;
http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs025.snc1/3118_180996530136_658845136_6755417_380339_n.jpg

[ADAM]

the harness bar is just that..for the harness...the diagonal is what helps the hoop from distorting into your head...


plus you used ERW which should be a no no for any new cages being built...

[Maddog]

plus you used ERW which should be a no no for any new cages being built...
Maybe you can inform a CSC Racing as that's what they offer, unless you specify DOM.

[ADAM]

Alot of race bodies in the US have already banned ERW..I think older ones can get grandfathered in...


however for the slight increase in cost DOM is the way to go..

we even bickered a while back on not allowing ERW..however still do per the rules

All you have to do is look at the CASC rule section on roll bars and cages it spells out very clearly what a basic CASC cage looks like and the materials required

[Maddog]

however for the slight increase in cost DOM is the way to go..From the quote I got from CSC, it's 53% more for DOM over ERW. I wouldn't call that "slight increase". lol

Thanks fellas. I have some thinking to do in the next few days.

[ADAM]

Just called my tubing supplier up for recent pricing

1.75 x .095 dom seamless is $3.05/ft
1.75 x .095 ERW is $2.05/ft

you would need max 50ft to do a roll bar like yours

the actual material price difference approx and extra $50 bucks..not much considering the material hassle with using ERW ...IMO

I only buy DOM since it makes sense

[Maddog]

Just called my tubing supplier up for recent pricing

1.75 x .095 dom seamless is $3.05/ft
1.75 x .095 ERW is $2.05/ft

you would need max 50ft to do a roll bar like yours

the actual material price difference approx and extra $50 bucks..not much considering the material hassle with using ERW ...IMO

I only buy DOM since it makes senseJust going by what they told me..I'm not making it up. For the kit (CSC kit 201-1 w/ added diagonal & rear support bars), they quoted me:

1.75" x .120" ERW $375
1.75" x .095" DOM $575

Kit 201-1
http://www.cscracing.com/rck2011.gif

[nissannx]

Electrical conduit is not acceptable. ;)


I installed central vac tubing and wrapped it in black masking tape - is that okay?:D

[Ytzman]

I installed central vac tubing and wrapped it in black masking tape - is that okay?:D

no joke, I know a guy who used ABS plumbing pipe to get his Mustang convertible through tech at TMP drags.

[nowcritical]

Just going by what they told me..I'm not making it up. For the kit (CSC kit 201-1 w/ added diagonal & rear support bars), they quoted me:

1.75" x .120" ERW $375
1.75" x .095" DOM $575

Kit 201-1
http://www.cscracing.com/rck2011.gif

Don't Skimp on the safety or rollover protection. Every penny invested could save your life. You have looked at a cage and roll over protection just get it done get the best one you can.

[Maddog]

Don't Skimp on the safety or rollover protection. Every penny invested could save your life. You have looked at a cage and roll over protection just get it done get the best one you can.I also evaluate the law of probability. When's the last time someone got badly hurt or killed in Solo1? Also, technically you don't even need roll over protection in Solo1.

[Slowpoke]

I also evaluate the law of probability. When's the last time someone got badly hurt or killed in Solo1? Also, technically you don't even need roll over protection in Solo1.

It's expensive to remove an inadequate cage and redo it. Most people end up just selling the car and starting from scratch with a new one or buy an already caged car.

You might get CASC-OR SoloSPrint logbooked, but race might not accept it in the future if you decide to move up. It's up to you and your budget. Some things like safety are worth doing right the first time.

Keep in mind that you will need CURRENT 5 or 6 point FIA or SFI certified belts for your cage, a compatible seat, the required SFI or FIA rollbar padding for where your SA helmet might hit. And at this point, there's no sense in getting a seat and belts that aren't HAN restraint system compatible.

Defendr or HANS: $600 +
Seat: $800 +
Belts: $300 +
SA Helmet: $250 +
Four point Cage with Nascar bars: $575 (GREAT price BTW)

I am not trying to discourage you from adding safety devices to your car. But as a fellow budget racer, I empathize with your decision.

[Maddog]

It's expensive to remove an inadequate cage and redo it. Most people end up just selling the car and starting from scratch with a new one or buy an already caged car.

You might get CASC-OR SoloSPrint logbooked, but race might not accept it in the future if you decide to move up. It's up to you and your budget. Some things like safety are worth doing right the first time.

Keep in mind that you will need CURRENT 5 or 6 point FIA or SFI certified belts for your cage, a compatible seat, the required SFI or FIA rollbar padding for where your SA helmet might hit. And at this point, there's no sense in getting a seat and belts that aren't HAN restraint system compatible.

Defendr or HANS: $600 +
Seat: $800 +
Belts: $300 +
SA Helmet: $250 +
Four point Cage with Nascar bars: $575 (GREAT price BTW)

I am not trying to discourage you from adding safety devices to your car. But as a fellow budget racer, I empathize with your decision.

I already have a Kirkey Road Race seat, a 5-pnt belt, and a SA2005 helmet.
Seat $500
Belts $150 (2nd hand Simpson, but only used for test fitting)
Helmet $120 (again 2nd hand, but new in box)

BTW, it's a 6 point for $575. :)

See I probably would have went with CSC in the first place, but when I called them last fall before ordering the one I'm dealing with now, they quoted me $500 just for a main loop & rear braces. Now when I called them today and find out what I can get for $500, it's a whole different story.

[Doug P]

I already have a Kirkey Road Race seat, a 5-pnt belt, and a SA2005 helmet.
Seat $500
Belts $150 (2nd hand Simpson, but only used for test fitting)
Helmet $120 (again 2nd hand, but new in box)

BTW, it's a 6 point for $575. :)

See I probably would have went with CSC in the first place, but when I called them last fall before ordering the one I'm dealing with now, they quoted me $500 just for a main loop & rear braces. Now when I called them today and find out what I can get for $500, it's a whole different story.

Is that cage price for materials or installed?

I know you like to weld your own stuff but when I was there 2 weeks ago they were installing cages in 2 Mustangs and it was going very quickly.

Might be worth dropping the car off and getting them to do it one day.

[super seven]

Anybody recommend or know somebody that builds roll bars. Im in the west end?

[Nick Majors]

Super Seven

Contact CSC Racing (http://cscracing.com/) - they have been CASC-OR long time sponsors and supporters and our official supplier of safely equipment (and build great cages)

[Ytzman]

I thought the same with mine, but it actually tucked up nicely to the roof. I may still have to drop my seat down an inch once the padding goes on.



I take it back, once I had my seat bolted back in properly, my head was bouncing of the Halo pretty good.
Easy fix at the track with a saws-all, grinder and a Scotts' generator!

[Ytzman]

Ok, so I know there was some concern about the placement of the rear supports for the main hoop on my car. A suggestion was made to move them from the rear strut towers down to the frame rail, which I should have done in the first place, but I see most are done to the shock towers so I didn't think of it at the time:o.
I don't know if I have enough time before event 1-2 to complete this change as I've got some other issues to deal with:mad:, and I want to make sure that I'll be able to run with the way it is, atleast for these 2 events.
I'm not taking the -1 pip for the roll bar, so it shouldn't a question of classification, just safety, and I figure it's better this way, than not having it at all.
Any insite, or direction would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Bram

[CAllen]

I don't know that I can be any help in this discussion, but seeing as I'm a CASC-OR Roadcourse Scrutineer, I do know a little bit about roll cages and design. I can assist with interpreting the Race Regulations, Appendix O for Roll cages if that will help clarify. I cannot comment on the installation of just a roll bar per your rulebook, because I don't have a frame of reference for the information in there.

If memory serves me, I believe I helped you out with some questions a few months ago Bram. I can tell you what we expect to see in a car with a full cage.

[racerguy19]

Hey Colene,

I had my '81 Mazda RX7 teched at the MCO race school and it passed but they had some upgrade suggestions. I was talking to Darren Scott and he said I should get your opinion. The car is in a warehouse in Kitchener near Budd Park, what's your schedule like for nights after dinner in the next couple of weeks.....I'll make sure to bring that Timmie's Tea for you!!

Steve

[CAllen]

Hi Steve,

Yup, I'm about 10 minutes from that area of town. I'm free on Monday, Wednesday, and Thursday evenings, barring school exams and assignments. Send me an email to my Yahoo! account and we'll set something up. I'm flattered Darren would suggest you ask me :-)

Colene :-)