Event # 8 Results... [Archive] - CASC Ontario Region Message Forums

miataboi

08-25-2003, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by tanney
Quite whining, will ya!

Just out of curiousity, does ANYONE have any viable alternatives to the pax for under filled classes?

If so, start a thread with some constructive comments (not whining) and we can look at that for next season.

well...
There was some talk about having "target times" posted for underfilled classes... along with the results... because it is not obvious by looking at the results how you are going to do post-paxinization...

This will tell people how much further to push it...
This does not FIX the fundamental issue re: PAX... but at least it doesn't dissapoint / surprise anyone. (this event posed a different problem... in that non-series registered competitors were not PERMITTED to attend the event... and as a result... may have caused some classes (even entire families) to be artificially under-filled)

Obviously... comparing one family class against the rest of the field... while NOT comparing the rest of the field... will lead to problems... in that different types of courses are better suited to certain car characteristics) The problems are related to "OVERALL" standings... and not SO much towards class standings.

eddie 82

08-25-2003, 05:33 PM

Maybe we should just become an oval track series? :p

Answered my own question about the A Family scoring though....lucky for me I had my rule book handy. (See 4.5.7, last paragraph)

miataboi

08-25-2003, 05:35 PM

...all of A-class has discussed it... AND...

...we are going to ENSURE that 3 bone-stock miatas or SLK's with "hairdressers" driving their "cute" cars (that they may or may not have bought for themselves) are going to make it out to all regional events... so that we can be scored within our same family!

WOO-HOO!
WORK-THAT-SYSTEM!!!
:D :p :eek:

Don't take it too seriously...
IF the system is not perfect... then people will find ways around the way it was MEANT to work.

I am anxious to see how next year will work under the "new" rules... and if someone starts a thread about it... I will gladly constructively contribute there.

miataboi

08-25-2003, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by eddie 82
Maybe we should just become an oval track series? :p

...and how would that change things??? (other than my tire-stagger selection)

eddie 82

08-25-2003, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by miataboi
...and how would that change things??? (other than my tire-stagger selection)
We havent even scratched the surface with the NASCAR fans! I guarantee you'd have a full class then (Old Vettes, Fiero's, and Prowlers!)

Can we rent a monster truck and crush all the broken cars at the end of an event?

Ron

08-25-2003, 06:12 PM

Sorry didn't mean to whine Wes.

On the PAX issue, perhaps the format is OK, but the factors need to be tweaked. Maybe at the end of the year the averages of all classes scores can set the factors for next year.

On the Oval Track issue, the dwarf was made for it. Although it would be hard to find next to Ben's car.

Taylor

08-25-2003, 06:18 PM

Well I'm very pleased to see I was right in that going would be a huge waste of my time (considering I had a Solo 1 opportunity).. I suspected we would have grossly underfilled classes on a course that some people HAVE driven on (which is another problem) at an event that only regional people can go to (no offence to the organizers as I understand it was a fun event) but what's the point of holding the event if you're not racing against the locals?

From what I'm seeing no way could I have gotten 100 points, in fact I see NO underfilled class did. Further proof the pax numbers used are shit.

Look at SCCA pax numbers, look at where the S2000 falls (B Stock) look at it's pax number, compare it to A Mod, then look at CASC-OR's Solo 2 pax numbers for ASC (Home of the S2K) and compare them to A Mod. It's bullshit.

7 of 9 events. Pax kills. Blew my chance for overall. I still think that event where I didn't beat pax but managed to beat everyone in a filled B MOD class...that should be good enough for 100 points. BMOD is paxed above me. But no, since it's not in my family it doesn't apply. This whole family system sucks... which is why it's not in Solo 1 anymore. What's fun about racing against a static number all the time? I'd rather compete against other drivers.

And the canned response to that is for me to convince a couple inexperienced S2000 drivers on street tires to come out who don't have a hope in hell or arn't part of the series to begin with.

I just don't see how you can have a static number to apply to a sport where the courses change every time. It's one thing to say GT1's Pax is this on Nelson, this on Fabi, this on Pro, this on DDT, this on Club, this on TMP Full. That would be fair (or about as fair as you can get). But when you have a narrow or tight gated course, Miata's have just as much of a chance to get a good a time as a 300HP car. But you're 2 classes above because you have a 300HP car. Course that's more of a propositioning thing.

Under SCCA Classification I'd probably still have an underfilled class but my pax would be more in check against CS (A1 Miata's) .825 BS vs .814 CS (difference of .011) vs .850 ASC vs .805 A1 (difference of .045). Huge difference and the tighter the course the more difficult it is to beat.

Where did the PAX #'s we have today come from anyhow?

Seriously if we had better classification (SCCA/CNAC) and these pax numbers, even if we had underfilled classes at least they'd be attainable.

I also think with pax the way it is, 7 of 9 events is just too tight. Especially when you have an event like Bracebridge where all these underfilled class people who otherwise do fairly well are shafted because of PAX. As if they suddenly became bad drivers overnight.

So my suggestions (in case they're not obvious)

- if you beat any class above you in your family (not just the one above you) you should get 100 points.
- if you beat any class paxed above you (regardless of family), 100 points
- CNAC/SCCA Classification and Pax #'s, I think, are the ideal solution. It's my understanding for the most part they run larger lots, faster events, so we build more open courses and do two laps. Even then I suspect there are many SCCA sanctioned events that are in lots the size of the ones we're used to (except the DDT Skidpad).

Also another thing.. lets look at B Family and it's Family Pax avg.. 42.606 right.. well look at that # against B1. In my mind, B1 shouldn't get 100 points. But it does because the class had more than 3 people. Like 2 other people are supposed to be a guage of how good the guy in first is?

Then you have a situation like Simon, who wins his class consistently, not getting full points because of the pax average, meanwhile if he had 2 other people in his class (like every other event) he'd win it.

Then we've got my man Joe, who though the fortune of a full class get's 100 points, but he's .5 seconds off family pax.

I just don't see how we can use a system with so many inconsistencies?!

miataboi

08-25-2003, 06:23 PM

Originally posted by Taylor
Well I'm very pleased to see I was right in that going would be a huge waste of my time (considering I had a Solo 1 opportunity).. I suspected we would have grossly underfilled classes on a course that some people HAVE driven on (which is another problem) at an event that only regional people can go to (no offence to the organizers as I understand it was a fun event) but what's the point of holding the event if you're not racing against the locals?

From what I'm seeing no way could I have gotten 100 points, in fact I see NO underfilled class did. Further proof the pax numbers used are shit.

Look at SCCA pax numbers, look at where the S2000 falls (B Stock) look at it's pax number, compare it to A Mod, then look at CASC-OR's Solo 2 pax numbers for ASC (Home of the S2K) and compare them to A Mod. It's bullshit.

7 of 9 events. Pax kills. Blew my chance for overall. I still think that event where I didn't beat pax but managed to beat everyone in a filled B MOD class...that should be good enough for 100 points. BMOD is paxed above me. But no, since it's not in my family it doesn't apply. This whole family system sucks... which is why it's not in Solo 1 anymore. What's fun about racing against a static number all the time? I'd rather compete against other drivers.

And the canned response to that is for me to convince a couple inexperienced S2000 drivers on street tires to come out who don't have a hope in hell or arn't part of the series to begin with.

I just don't see how you can have a static number to apply to a sport where the courses change every time. It's one thing to say GT1's Pax is this on Nelson, this on Fabi, this on Pro, this on DDT, this on Club, this on TMP Full. That would be fair (or about as fair as you can get). But when you have a narrow or tight gated course, Miata's have just as much of a chance to get a good a time as a 300HP car. But you're 2 classes above because you have a 300HP car. Course that's more of a propositioning thing.

Under SCCA Classification I'd probably still have an underfilled class but my pax would be more in check against CS (A1 Miata's) .825 BS vs .814 CS (difference of .011) vs .850 ASC vs .805 A1 (difference of .045). Huge difference and the tighter the course the more difficult it is to beat.

Where did the PAX #'s we have today come from anyhow?

Seriously if we had better classification (SCCA/CNAC) and these pax numbers, even if we had underfilled classes at least they'd be attainable.

I also think with pax the way it is, 7 of 9 events is just too tight. Especially when you have an event like Bracebridge where all these underfilled class people who otherwise do fairly well are shafted because of PAX. As if they suddenly became bad drivers overnight.

So my suggestions (in case they're not obvious)

- if you beat any class above you in your family (not just the one above you) you should get 100 points.
- if you beat any class paxed above you (regardless of family), 100 points
- CNAC/SCCA Classification and Pax #'s, I think, are the ideal solution. It's my understanding for the most part they run larger lots, faster events, so we build more open courses and do two laps. Even then I suspect there are many SCCA sanctioned events that are in lots the size of the ones we're used to (except the DDT Skidpad).

Also another thing.. lets look at B Family and it's Family Pax avg.. 42.606 right.. well look at that # against B1. In my mind, B1 shouldn't get 100 points. But it does because the class had more than 3 people. Like 2 other people are supposed to be a guage of how good the guy in first is?

Then you have a situation like Simon, who wins his class consistently, not getting full points because of the pax average, meanwhile if he had 2 other people in his class (like every other event) he'd win it.

Then we've got my man Joe, who though the fortune of a full class get's 100 points, but he's .5 seconds off family pax.

I just don't see how we can use a system with so many inconsistencies?!

I'm just thankful that he DIDN'T ACTUALLY RUN THIS EVENT... and then lose his 100 points! :D

Taylor

08-25-2003, 06:41 PM

Indeed, so am I.

I abstained all in the interest of my mental health. Had a great time at Cayuga on Sunday. A well setup Civic hatchback is a joy to behold.

AlienDNA

08-25-2003, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by miataboi
...and how would that change things??? (other than my tire-stagger selection)

Well, I'd be kicking some major ass, for one.

And now I've got the quarterpanel to prove it, too!

AlienDNA

08-25-2003, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by eddie 82
We havent even scratched the surface with the NASCAR fans! I guarantee you'd have a full class then (Old Vettes, Fiero's, and Prowlers!)

Can we rent a monster truck and crush all the broken cars at the end of an event?

Bah! Shows what you know about short track racing. Vettes, Fieros and Prowlers are nothing more than handfuls of dust waiting to happen.

What we'd see is: '72 Nova, lotsa '60s Mopar crap or, my personal favourite (and my very first car) '68 big-block Skylark.

Maybe that's what we need next year - a good 'ol 1/8 of a mile dirt track for one of the Regional events.:D

soloZ

08-25-2003, 08:48 PM

Just read the signiture on the bottom of my post and notice the King part hehe I would race again on a oval, there isn't much brain work involved.

Marsh

08-25-2003, 09:11 PM

Originally posted by soloZ
Just read the signiture on the bottom of my post and notice the King part hehe I would race again on a oval, there isn't much brain work involved.

You've obviously never had to pass anyone at KOTH...

Marsh

08-25-2003, 09:28 PM

I love the complaints about family PAX. The system I've been winning with all season and now that everyone else is in my shoes, suddenly it sucks. The real problem with pax isn't the factors it's that you don't just have to race the driveres in your class, you actually have to race the other good drivers in the entire family or, in A-family's case, racing all of the top drivers in the region. It's not a static number at all quite the opposite. It's a direct comparison between you and everybody else. I spend most of my time listening to how non-pax scoring isn't fair because I never have to race anyone good in CSS. Then an event like this comes along and suddenly everyone is in the same boat and oh surprise...

BTW miataboi I DID get my 100 on pax. Infact I came 0.11 sec from propositioning Joe ( my only hope for holding him off at this event since I was loosing on pax with my good backup).

Somebody complaining about pax causing you to loose is one step below blaming your car.

JoeT

08-25-2003, 09:37 PM

Originally posted by Marsh

BTW miataboi I DID get my 100 on pax. Infact I came 0.11 sec from propositioning Joe ( my only hope for holding him off at this event since I was loosing on pax with my good backup).

Hey Marsh,

Did you watch my last run... LOL

The thing I really dislike is that ties are broken by the backup runs. This event had me throwing away my last run because I wanted to keep the backup.

Ties should be handled differently, I don't exactly know how at this point in time, but I'm sure someone is creative enough to come up with an alternate scenario.

PS. There's not that many people with full points.

ice/solo racer

08-25-2003, 09:43 PM

Taylor just to counter point your post,the ONLY reason I as organizer decided to allow only regional people(and the handfull of club members that ran)to run this event was to try and ensure that we weren't completly overwhelmed-something along the lines of last years ottawa regional as most will recall didn't go well at all.
As far as running against the locals goes-like I said a handfull of club members is about it for the local racer crowd.Certainly not much competition for the regional guys as Andretti was the only guy on decent tires(azenis)the rest were on mostly worn out all seasons in cars that weren't built to fit a class or even given any thought as to which they would be in with what their driving.Essentially none of them have turned a wheel in competition in nearly 2 years as well.The only person that is truly competitive and has the most laps run there is me-I organized and therefor had 0 effect on scoring.
One more thing-if you hate running in an underfilled class,why not give BSS a try!you will definatly never ever have to worry about paxing coming into play---oh course than you'll have to out run me,Tony,Stephen,Wes,Robb,Doug etc,etc,etc,etc,etc,to get your 100 points,I think you get the idea:rolleyes:

soloZ

08-25-2003, 09:53 PM

Originally posted by Marsh
You've obviously never had to pass anyone at KOTH...

Actually I did against a 87 Mustang GT he was on the inside.

J.C.

08-25-2003, 11:19 PM

Just a thought. Next year I may register for the regionals but not actually do much driving. This way if someone needs another driver to fill out there class they can give me a shout. Of course I would need a car from that specific class to drive ;)

I know this is not a solution but in some cases it may help.

Marsh

08-26-2003, 01:51 AM

Originally posted by JoeT
Hey Marsh,

Did you watch my last run... LOL

The thing I really dislike is that ties are broken by the backup runs. This event had me throwing away my last run because I wanted to keep the backup.

Ties should be handled differently, I don't exactly know how at this point in time, but I'm sure someone is creative enough to come up with an alternate scenario.

PS. There's not that many people with full points.

Well yes, you could likely have gone faster again, but that would have meant screwing up your backup, and thus nocking your result down. At least you have the advantage of running after me. Both you and the C1 cars all run after me, so I'm usually getting an ulsur during the 5th run, hoping nobody pulls a rabit out of their hat.

Taylor

08-26-2003, 02:20 AM

One more thing-if you hate running in an underfilled class,why not give BSS a try! Right.. okay sure why not, I'll go out and buy a car and tune it specifically for a class. Afterall that's the grassroots thing to do. *shakes head*

The idea here is race what you've got and it should be fair. I conceed that you need R's to be competitive considering our classification system but not a specific car.

I can't believe this is the solution that comes from some people. Yeah... glad the Car Classification Comittee in Solo 1 wasn't so narrow minded this year.

The system I've been winning with all season and now that everyone else is in my shoes, suddenly it sucks. Well the Corvettes came out last year so it wasn't an issue for me then now was it?

Sorry I wasn't all about figuring out what problems Marshall might be having with the system and fighting for them on your behalf. Yeesh what an ego. Don't belly ache because no one backs/backed you up. Fight your own fight. Recruit your own people.

I had been personally beating pax this year except for Event #7. I have been complaining about it since Event #3. I see Tony McGrath only beat the target time for his class by a tenth! No one else in that class made it.

But hey all my 'respect' to you Marsh for beating pax and doubling backup times with organizer points. I dunno about you but I'm pretty f'ing bored without class competition, which is why I spent my time trying to beat Paul K's times. But yet, half the time I can beat him and half the time I can't. Now why is that? Must be brain fade on my part right? Drive better some days more than others? Hello?! How about B Mod cars? Or what about the GoKarts on slicks? Apparently being able to do that isn't worth full points because I don't have 2 other people (good or not) in my class. Why is that a qualifying indicator? No the reason I can beat pax at one time and not at another has nothing to do with driving ability, I can guarantee you, I don't have good and bad days driving, the problem is that there's this fixed number that says I have to be so much better than this or that class on EVERY course configuration, and I don't understand why people can't get it through their heads that the tighter the course the more difficult it is for a larger/heavier car to squeeze through some gates at a higher rate of speed, the performance gap is narrowed significantly. If the only full class in my family is A1 (Miata's) or ASS (Modified Miata's) then I have to work harder than if the full class is A3 or something.

Yeah explain to me how I'm not supposed to be able to be propositioned by ASS, yet ASS is paxed below me? (not that ASS has been a pax problem for me this year)

Inconsistencies.

Look I'm not saying it's impossible, but I am suggesting in many circumstances you may very well have to be the best driver there to get full points with this system.

Ahh shit... did I just compliment Marshall?

Taylor

08-26-2003, 02:38 AM

Oh and just in case someone thinks I'm whining here let me reiterate...

- Drop the Family System

OR

- Adopt CNAC/SCCA Classes/Rules and Pax

But before people want to change you have to show them why what they're doing now is wrong or flawed. I don't care about what this guy did or that guy did. I was told the justification for the S2000 staying in A1 (what is now ASC) was because "well you did well in it". Riiight because I can beat other people in that class, the car should be in there.

Well I beat ASP once and a while too, lets move the S2000 there!

What I care about is what's right or fair. This system as it exists, does not appear fair. And I'm hardly the first guy to complain about the classification system. Obviously there's a reason why CNAC rules were being considered for 2004 and this was prior to this ASN unification initative.

Wasn't my point about CASC Solo 2's gap between ASC and A1 pax being 4 times greater than SCCA's gap between stock S2K's and Miata's good enough of a point?

Anyhow I'll be there, like I was last year, at the Workshop in November, giving my 2 cents constructively and destructively (depends on if I personally have an alternate solution or not) for Solo 1 and Solo 2, I just hope this year it can work out that Solo 1 and Solo 2's workshops can happen at two separate times.

Marsh

08-26-2003, 07:26 AM

Poor Taylor, don't you get it. I never complained about the system. I don't have any problem with it at all. That's the point! If everyone spent half as much time worrying about their driving as they did about the scoring system then I wouldn't be winning the championship by a long shot.

My comment was directed at all the people that were making fun of me at the beginning of the year for having my palm pilot out during the 3rd and 4th run calculating my class pax times. Now I go to events and at least half a dozen people are asking me how to do the calculation. People critisized me for sand bagging my 5th run, now I've seen 4 people do in the last 3 events (and that's just C-family).

And what about B-Mod cars? So if some green rookie shows up in a B18 civic on all seasons and runs alone in his class, does that mean that every single underfilled class that beats him (which will likely be all of them) gets 100%??? I've beaten SAE teams several times. That doesn't make me a good driver. I'd be much prouder of beating Mike Patterson in his 4 door 323 (hell he sets FTD in it!) or Pat Yorke in anything he's ever driven. The pax system has to make assumptions about which classes contain good drivers. That assumption is that if there are 3 then at least one is good enough to compare to. So yes sometimes you might need to be the best. Isn't that kind of the point of a championship?

Look the system isn't the best, I know that. I've been saying all year, that I agree that's it's time to adopt CNAC rules. But that doesn't change what the rules are for this year. And the problem isn't the pax system it's the classes. OK so your car isn't fast enough for ASC. I can believe that. But is it really no faster than a stock miata? It can't be in A1, so the only class for it is ASC. The same with the GSR, Civic-Si, ITR etc, etc. We knew it wasn't great, but it was the best we had.

No the reason I can beat pax at one time and not at another has nothing to do with driving ability, I can guarantee you, I don't have good and bad days driving,...

WOW and nobody's offered you an F1 ride yet!?!?! You ARE the best!

J.C.

08-26-2003, 09:37 AM

If you take a hard look at where cars are classed there are a few in classes where they should not be in. I guess someone likes it like this. What do you do:
A) try to get a change made
and if that does not work
B) live with it and just enjoy the driving and atmosphere
C) buy another car
D) leave the sport

If it were not for certain individuals that make this sport enjoyable attendance would be down.

Taylor

08-26-2003, 09:41 AM

And what about B-Mod cars? So if some green rookie shows up in a B18 civic on all seasons and runs alone in his class, does that mean that every single underfilled class that beats him (which will likely be all of them) gets 100%???

Hows that any different than having two other novices or something in your class... apparently that's enough to say your a winner.

I don't have a problem exactly with ASC other than the cars that are in that class are fairly rare (with the exception of Vettes that oddly just haven't come out this year, I don't exactly know why, but I suspect I know why)

I don't believe the Miata should be in the same class, what I believe is the pax gap between a Miata and me shouldn't be .045. That's huge. Biggest single gap in the system, by over TWICE the other gaps. It's 4 times the SCCA gap to a Miata. Then I'm only 0.010 from ASP? Turbo Miata's with suspension? I DRIVE A STOCK CAR. It's PAX, pax is the problem here.

On a much more open course I think it's a bit more challenging for me in ASC to beat Z06's in ASC, unfortunately that wide open C4 event really didn't allow me to find that out with the rain and all... looked like I was able to keep up with Eric (about 1 or 2 tenths off) but with the varying conditions I dunno what the real separation there would be. Course if I ran against one at CNAC or something at Slemon 90 second 3rd gear course, I'd probably get my ass handed to me with our system.

WOW and nobody's offered you an F1 ride yet!?!?! You ARE the best! Umm... I think you missed my point. Which is that I consistently drive my car as well as I can. I don't have days where I say to myself "Shit... didn't *I* suck today". I'm not saying there's no room for improvement, I'm saying that if I'm faster than certain people in higher classes some days, why isn't that good enough on days when I have an underfilled class.

BTW, BM had 7 people in it in the instance I'm talking about. Obviously they're not Pat or Hanif, but it's still a full class with a much higher pax than ASC and I was quicker. I wasn't quicker than ASP though because Paul is a bastard and too fast some days. I just don't see why that can't be 100 points but having two yahoos in my class is.

I'm just pointing out the system has too many inconsistencies. With a narrower pax factor perhaps it would be more reasonable to beat it.

I think the best driver should win the Championship, but with this kind of system I'm saying sometimes just to win your class in an event, you have to be the best of 100+ people. Meanwhile there are people winning their classes who arn't. I dunno, can you call it a double standard?

Anyhow, I know what the solution to the current system is. Exploit it. I should have done that. My car isn't setup to the nines for stock class. Perhaps if it were PAX would be more attainable. Still doesn't change the gap from an S2K to a Miata in SCCA vs Us is 4 times larger. What would happen if Tony or Steve were in A1 back in a stock miata. I'd more than likely be screwed pax wise, and the rest of A Family too. I just don't think the gap is justified.

I'd still like to know where it came from in the first place.

tanney

08-26-2003, 10:28 AM

Where did the PAX #'s we have today come from anyhow?

It came form competitor input! Or should I say it remained the same as last year due to LACK of competitor input.

Sorry didn't mean to whine Wes.

Ron I should have put a little stupid happy face beside it. I was teasing Jeff!

But know that the can of whining worms has truly been opened........

I personally have a fairly serious personal beef with where my car (95 Civic DX) is classed. It's classed with the Si model (10% more hp and stiffer springs) but you don't here me publically whining about it!

I accepted the fact that the classification system isn't perfect and am striving to make myself a better driver because of it and have looked at what I can do within the current rule set to make my car more competitive.

And most importantly I AM STEPPING UP TO MAKE IT BETTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I spend a lot of time involved with doing stuff for this and other club events and series.

I have a beef with Solo 1 paxes. I VOLUNTEER to sit on the solo 1 committee and do my lobbing there, not in a public forum.

I someone doesn't show up "because I am running against the pax" then sorry, that's your choice and don't complain!

I participate in this sport because I love it (it does help that I am somewhat competitive, or I was up until this season) and drive all over this province to participate in events, good or bad, filled classes or not. Sure, like almost anybody, I get annoyed (at myself) when I'm not competitive and get my ass kicked (getting used to it this year), but I show up anyway!

miataboi

08-26-2003, 11:59 AM

...all I know is....

A given course will favour certain cars over others....

SO... you are best-off either...

a) being the BEST driver out there by a long-shot

or

b) have a car with NO weaknesses!!! (see s/c miatas & SAE cars)

I am striving for both. I am SURE that with these 2 little details sorted out... that I will have no complaints and will THEN end any and all whining...

For the last event... I just wanted to secure class... and did not want to push it any harder as the rewards weren't there... and with the track getting colder and the rain starting... I figured I wanted to be able to DRIVE home... so I packed up.

Next year... I won't be class competitive due to class changes... so it's a "driver-development" year... not a class / overall champion year... and honestly... I welcome that... as I do things to secure class that aren't in the best interest of driver improvement. ALSO... when I'm striving for results... (class or overall) I do things that I don't want to do.... (drive to events that I know are not going to be fun - (mosport) or cancel OTHER plans to get my 7/9 events...

Next year... I'll focus on what solo 2 means to me!!! (driving as fast as possible for a single run and improving as a driver)

If I don't "FEEL" like going to an event... I won't...

For me... the rules changes simplify my solo'ing... (and I'll be a much better driver for it... (being the under-dog and all!)
(unless someone wants to loan me $11,000 for a S/C'er for my car!!!)

tanney

08-26-2003, 12:04 PM

Well a comittee could go out and walk the course at every event, rework the pax numbers beforethe first run start, post the "event pax numbers" listen to all the whining, sit back down work them out again, post them agian, listen to more people complain........

Either that or WE WILL GIVE EVERYBODY 100 POINTS FOR EVERY EVENT. Show up and win! You don't even need to unpack your car....you win!

Taylor

08-26-2003, 12:04 PM

Yeah and I decided to show up somewhere else instead of getting beat by pax. I'd rather be beat by other drivers than by pax. Pax doesn't tell me how well I'm driving. In my mind anyhow.

I still don't understand where some peoples beef is with discussing rules, classing and organization in a public forum. It's not like there is a Solo 2 comittee. And I speak to organizers and yourself on a constant basis at events as well. It's not like all my complaints are just here, hiding behind my computer or something.

As for last year and pax, it was never an issue for me (full class). Didn't even know how it worked until I had to deal with it (this year). And as I said, I'll be there in November to argue my case for Pax as well as a number of other things too.

BTW, if the Solo 1 classification system wasn't talked about on this forum, we may not be where we are with it this year. and I think it's a vast improvement. I haven't heard anyone who's been competing this year complain about that system.

tanney

08-26-2003, 12:04 PM

btw, the updated results showing the missed runs by the last 6 or so competitors has been updated and reposted. (no pax numbers adjusted here though, sorry, underfilled classes are still paxed)

miataboi

08-26-2003, 12:09 PM

...just to follow-up...

Solo'ing is NOT about securing back-up times, striving to "load-up" your class or a class in your family so that you only have to beat a handful of people... etc.

It is about getting around a course you have never seen before in the shortest single amout of time out of 4-7 attempts.

Solo'ing is fun when you have lots of competition with friends / rivals... or your "class" is filled and there are a handful of winners at any given race... or you are in a battle for FTD with a handful of other hot-shoes.

Problems exist when the classes are under-filled (or the classes get too granular - that's why pittl is so fun - simple and few classes!!!) ...AND when your are using a PAX system to determine the relative goodness of a driver on a given day compared to another...

I prefer it to be driver vs. driver....

I'd like ALL ties to be settled with a shoot-out!!! :D That would be both fun... and more fair / a good test of "better-driverness"!

I think it's more fun that way... and as a side benefit... you are forced to improve!

It's not practical for every event... but I like it!
Pittl settles year-end ties that way! That's really cool! I don't see why regionals couldn't as well!

tanney

08-26-2003, 12:10 PM

It's not like there is a Solo 2 comittee.

Open up the rule book......page 2. There is a list of the competitors (and one non-competitor) that have volunteered for the Solo 2 Comittee!

Taylor

08-26-2003, 12:22 PM

Yeah Wes and I talk to you about the series and series concerns on a regular basis. As the organizers of the events too. I'd talk to the director too if he was at any of the events I've been too. Well actually the one he was, I talked to him about a concern as well. Don't pigeonhole me as one of those ones who only take issue after the results.

Besides my point was that comittee doesn't meet (a la Solo 1). And it's not like the rules would change mid-year anyhow.

MiataBoi: I couldn't agree more. The reason I like C4 events so much is the classification system is so pathetic you can't take it seriously... meanwhile the CASC-OR one plays with you.

Yup, I'm all about going as quick as I can. No sandbagging. Any good backups I got this year are purely coincidental.

miataboi

08-26-2003, 12:27 PM

Things that I couldn't imagine EVER seeing here:
Originally posted by Taylor

MiataBoi: I couldn't agree more.

...and ME... agreeing with Taylor! WTF! ;) I actually agree with him on more points than I care to admit... DAMNIT!

Originally posted by Taylor
[B]
The reason I like C4 events so much is the classification system is so pathetic you can't take it seriously... meanwhile the CASC-OR one plays with you.

So true... and well put!

Originally posted by Taylor
[B]
Yup, I'm all about going as quick as I can. No sandbagging. Any good backups I got this year are purely coincidental.

...sounds like a disclaimer!!!

Taylor

08-26-2003, 12:31 PM

Psh.. disclaimers won't help me now. I'm out of overall since.. well since .... Who knows? I certainly don't.

andrew1984

08-26-2003, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by miataboi
Things that I couldn't imagine EVER seeing here:

...and ME... agreeing with Taylor! WTF! ;) I actually agree with him on more points than I care to admit... DAMNIT!

So true... and well put!

...sounds like a disclaimer!!!

man, you scare me sometimes... you crack whore...:D

got fuel?

JoeT

08-26-2003, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by miataboi
...just to follow-up...

Solo'ing is NOT about securing back-up times, striving to "load-up" your class or a class in your family so that you only have to beat a handful of people... etc.

It is about getting around a course you have never seen before in the shortest single amout of time out of 4-7 attempts.

Solo'ing is fun when you have lots of competition with friends / rivals... or your "class" is filled and there are a handful of winners at any given race... or you are in a battle for FTD with a handful of other hot-shoes.

I prefer it to be driver vs. driver....

I'd like ALL ties to be settled with a shoot-out!!! :D That would be both fun... and more fair / a good test of "better-driverness"!

I think it's more fun that way... and as a side benefit... you are forced to improve!

It's not practical for every event... but I like it!
Pittl settles year-end ties that way! That's really cool! I don't see why regionals couldn't as well!

Wow... Miatiaboi makes sense this time. OMG.. What's this world coming to.

Words of wisdom... (for a change :p )

I like the idea of a shoot out to settle ties.

MitS

08-26-2003, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by miataboi
Next year... I won't be class competitive due to class changes... so it's a "driver-development" year... not a class / overall champion year... and honestly... I welcome that... as I do things to secure class that aren't in the best interest of driver improvement. ALSO... when I'm striving for results... (class or overall) I do things that I don't want to do.... (drive to events that I know are not going to be fun - (mosport) or cancel OTHER plans to get my 7/9 events...

Next year... I'll focus on what solo 2 means to me!!! (driving as fast as possible for a single run and improving as a driver)

If I don't "FEEL" like going to an event... I won't...

For me... the rules changes simplify my solo'ing... (and I'll be a much better driver for it... (being the under-dog and all!)
(unless someone wants to loan me $11,000 for a S/C'er for my car!!!)

This is what I do. Have fun doing it! My car is built for nothing more than shear driving pleasure and competition in any class is obtained by luck or the other competitors slowing down out of sympathy for a girlie car.

DareBee

08-26-2003, 03:19 PM

Brad

Shear driving pleasure can also be obtained by having "girlie" in car and tilt stearing;)

MitS

08-26-2003, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by DareBee
Brad

Shear driving pleasure can also be obtained by having "girlie" in car and tilt stearing;)

My wheel also telescopes :D

ice/solo racer

08-26-2003, 05:54 PM

Taylor show me any class of motorsport(not including spec series for obvious reasons)that you don't need a specific car to win on a specific day,doesn't matter if its grassroots level or F1 some cars perform better at different locations then others in the same class.
No rules our perfect and I certainly see some things that I don't quite get in our rules.In '99 when I started my first solo I had know idea about the rules,lowered my civic sir and ended up in BSP with no chance of being competitive,I didn't beg for a rules change.I decided that solo 2 was an area that I wanted to be competitive so I started down the road to preparing a car that I thought would be better than the SIR-back to back class championships says that I guess I was on the right track.Was I successfull because I built the absolute perfect solo car?hardly,I was successfull because I did a decent job of using the prep point system to work with the car I have and I pushed myself and the car to its limits at every event and never once took out a palm pilot as I simply wanted to go as fast as I could regardless.
If thats not what grassroots motorsports is about than I guess I don't get it like I thought I did.

Miataboi,I suggested last year that ties be broken at the shootout since we have to donor cars that could be used to crown the shootout winner AND the series champion.I know the rules couldn't be changed at this late(or could they?)but if I get lucky in Peterbough and have the 7 wins then I'd be up for even an unofficial comparision between the others also tied-just want to see where my skills are in relation to the other decent drivers in the series.

miataboi

08-26-2003, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by ice/solo racer
Taylor show me any class of motorsport(not including spec series for obvious reasons)that you don't need a specific car to win on a specific day,doesn't matter if its grassroots level or F1 some cars perform better at different locations then others in the same class.
No rules our perfect and I certainly see some things that I don't quite get in our rules.In '99 when I started my first solo I had know idea about the rules,lowered my civic sir and ended up in BSP with no chance of being competitive,I didn't beg for a rules change.I decided that solo 2 was an area that I wanted to be competitive so I started down the road to preparing a car that I thought would be better than the SIR-back to back class championships says that I guess I was on the right track.Was I successfull because I built the absolute perfect solo car?hardly,I was successfull because I did a decent job of using the prep point system to work with the car I have and I pushed myself and the car to its limits at every event and never once took out a palm pilot as I simply wanted to go as fast as I could regardless.
If thats not what grassroots motorsports is about than I guess I don't get it like I thought I did.

Miataboi,I suggested last year that ties be broken at the shootout since we have to donor cars that could be used to crown the shootout winner AND the series champion.I know the rules couldn't be changed at this late(or could they?)but if I get lucky in Peterbough and have the 7 wins then I'd be up for even an unofficial comparision between the others also tied-just want to see where my skills are in relation to the other decent drivers in the series.

DOH!
After posts like this... I think I like you again....
DOH!

I think it's just a bad day for me all around.... ;)

Tom: Couldn't agree more.

My point... previously... was that if you have a car with NO weaknesses... then you have THE car to have ALL the time!!! (see last year's ferrari) (solo 2 version: S/C miata or SAE car)

ALSO...

In OUR regionals... EVEN IF your car is not PERFECTLY suited to the course... driver skill CAN compensate. Our skill / talent pool (myself obviously included) is NOT so deep... that any given individual can't win without the perfect car... this is often the case at SCCA Nationals... not in CASC-OR regionals. It's the truth. At SCCA regionals... it CAN come down to 2 virtually perfect drivers... driving perfectly... and GEARING helps to decide the winner. In Canada... as anywhere the car is important... but here... driver is WAYYYYYYYYYYYY more important.

Kreutz73

08-27-2003, 12:11 AM

Originally posted by miataboi
My point... previously... was that if you have a car with NO weaknesses... then you have THE car to have ALL the time!!! (see last year's ferrari) (solo 2 version: S/C miata or SAE car)
[/B]

Someone has to stick up for the s/c miata's that seem to be taking a minor ribbing in this thread. My experience: I don't think a car "without weaknesses" drives better with 75lbs of gas in the tank, or with passengers. Most people try to take all weight out of their cars like the black MR2 with no gas tank at all.
Me... I often drive faster when I have 175lb passenger, and close to a full tank of gas (not the case on all course setups, but most). It's called way too much oversteer - and I'm sorry...but that's a big weakness. Mind you it's the most entertaining weakness I can think of :D

The truth is, in Ontario we don't have the depth of competition on the driver skill side of things to really be complaining about anything. (it's not fun to agree with people) Proof is in the fact that I've gotten 4 event FTD's this year on 2 year old Kumho's, most of them if not all were with a passenger. I don't think I should be getting away with that. If we were all really competitive drivers with well tuned (tire press. and suspension) the pax factors might make a lot more sense. But because we've got a guy in a heavier than stock, 173hp s/c miata with 2 year old kumhos, a passanger, and a full tank of gas taking event FTD's (more than anyone else) nothing is going to be fair. All this complaining is more because there is a smaller sample of drivers, and an even smaller sample of compeitive drivers for a system that was pobably created with the intention that one guy in an integra type R should drive just as fast (or close enough) to another driver in an integra type R. Which just isn't happening.

One thing I know for sure... we won't be able to adjust our pax factors in a way that will eliminate the "driver gap". We just aren't as closely matched in driver skill as we should be for the system to work. So the best thing to do is to keep doing what we have been...HAVE FUN! It's the only reason why we keep on coming out every weekend - I don't think any of us will be in a F1 car anytime soon... so lets just refocus on what makes our events fun... lots of runs, no (or little) marshalling, trash talking timing computers, and good company.

miataboi

08-27-2003, 12:37 AM

Originally posted by Kreutz73
Someone has to stick up for the s/c miata's that seem to be taking a minor ribbing in this thread. My experience: I don't think a car "without weaknesses" drives better with 75lbs of gas in the tank, or with passengers. Most people try to take all weight out of their cars like the black MR2 with no gas tank at all.
Me... I often drive faster when I have 175lb passenger, and close to a full tank of gas (not the case on all course setups, but most). It's called way too much oversteer - and I'm sorry...but that's a big weakness. Mind you it's the most entertaining weakness I can think of :D

Get a rollbar AND some 15's.
There.. a car with no weaknesses. That's car setup...

Wait 'till I get MY S/Cer... I'll whoop yo' punk azz.
White-boi!
Handling, power, flat torque curve, light-weight, braking,... where's the weakness???

I agree with the rest of your post though... as I've previously mentiond all of the other points! :p
BITER! :D