Oil Viscosity Q's

[Cliff96]

Especially noticeable after runs at the DDT event was the valve train and lifters ticking. This sound is not noticeable on the street and was barely audible at the start of a run.


Spoke briefly with Pete, who recommended changing the grade of oil.

I currently have Mobil1 10W30 in the car (being a 99 BMW 328i with the 2.8L M52 engine)

The owner manual recommends 0W-X or 5W-X where X=30,40,50 long life oils. It also allows 10W-X in the grading chart for warm weather.

Upon doing more reading online, I'm wondering why the manufacturer would recommend only the cold start and and the warm grade, and secondly and perhaps more importantly what grade (and brand) of oil I should be running in the summer to prevent this from occurring again?



Thanks,
Cliff

[Marsh]

This is a common miata problem and a fair number of people report that different weights of oil work best for them.

I'm running Mobil1 5W30 BTW.

The advantage of a thicker oil is that it doesn't drain out as quickly and theoretically avoids the tick. The thinner oil on the other hand will flow more quickly and fill the lifter more quickly.

I vote for the thinner oil philosophy and that's worked for me. With a thin oil you do run some more risk in motorsports so you have to play that balance. But with synthetic that's much less of a concern.

The other thing I can say from miata experience is that others have advised me to change the oil when the clatter gets bad, and sure enough it starts getting noticeably worse after 5000km.

Now all that said, lifter tick is not that bad a thing as long as you don't beat on the engine when it happens. So all you really need to do is get it to a point where the clicking is gone before you get to the start line.

[Caveman]

The First # 0,5,10,15,20 and so on is the oils flow rate (viscosity) when cold

W only stands for Winter. silly but true.

the second # 10,15,20,30,40&50 is the oils flow rate when hot

i know you new that but what it means is a 5w30 acts like a straight 5 weight oil when cold and acts like a straight 30 weight when hot

Racing oils tend to be straight 40 or 50 but that's kinda hard on the Eng when cold and on start up

newer light weight engines have light weight oil pumps and will have problems trying to flow thick cold oil

bent drives and such

so the lower the first and the higher the last numbers the better

now new lighter oils are recommended from the manufactures for fuel economy 5w20

but those engines ware that is recommended they really cant deal with thick oils when cold

also look for oils with high zinc content. It helps high load areas like cams and barrings
Agana reduced in most oils for environmental reasons. but most high end and race oils contain it and is recommended by most Cam manufacturers.

5W50 is a good choice for a newer engine that will see high oil temps.

I Run Shell Rotella T 15w40 diesel oil in my stock bottom end (and oil pump) 1985 Small Block Chev
designed only to see 4500 rpm max and i spin mine past 6000 on a regular basis and still no real issues


Rob

[JoeT]

Do you have an oil temperature guage in the car?

The rule of thumb is, if your oil temps are getting up into the stratosphere (north of 120 degrees C), then either get an oil cooler or get a higher viscosity oil, or both.

Ask SteveD the effect of viscosity on oil temperature, he did practical tests and the results are quite interesting.

[inoverdrive]

I use a 10w-60 made for BMW by Castrol TWS Motorsport.
I use it for the high revving Ford V 10 in my motor home.
The 10w is good for summer initial starts, and the 60 is
good for long trips.
It's made in Germany. and costs about $17 a litre here.
Ken

[Tashko]

Wow, I thought my Talon was the only one that sufferred bad lifter tick.

Similar to Marsh's experience, it was nice oil change indicator on my car. Once the tick got bad I knew it was time to change the oil.

I would suggest trying a 10w40, it's likely getting too hot and leading to the excessive tick, as Joe suggested. I used to run 10w30 and always had bad lifter tick when the oil was really hot.

Does BMW have a new iteration of lifter you could use? On the Talon, Mitsu ended up doing two revisions to the lifters to solve oil retention issues.

Ya, where's Stephen to chime in on the oil discussion? The king of oil testing. ;)

[JazzMZ3]

I have the same problem in my e36 M3 (S52). Both engines are the same design (identical head, block with different cylinder bore) and suffer oil starvation issues during this type of driving and one of the easily recognizable symptoms is the ticking of the hydraulic lifters. I posted about this here:

http://www.casc.on.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=16540

If you run a thicker oil, you will simply keep the oil inside the lifters a little bit longer, that's about it. It won't solve the oil starvation issue. You can also run a quart of oil more in your car. This is fine as the oil pan is situated a lot lower then the crank and you won't have the crank submerged in oil.

In terms of oil, I run Castrol 5w50 Synthetic in my car. But a 5w40 is fine too. 10w60 is not what this engine is designed for and although it will work, I would not recommend it. All-in-all, running a different viscosity oil is a band-aid solution and will not fix this problem. Message Gary Woods about this.

The permanent solution is to install baffles in your oil pan and/or run an accusump style setup.

T.

[AW11_4AGZE]

Last time I walked around a Vintage race, I noticed a lot of VR1 boxes in the trailers. 20W-50. This has lots of that zinc stuff (apperently) as noted above.

I've heard lots of takes on what oils to use... I keep the weight the same in the car (5w-30) but concetrate on full synthetic.

If I change the oil pump, or change out the cams, I would think about playing viscosity.

[Maddog]

Like others have said, if the oil gets hot, you have to run a thicker grade. Something like an AMSOIL Premium Protection 10w40 would be good for the "race" season, because it also has slightly higher anti-wear agents (zinc, phosphorus) than a typical oil.

Don't skimp on the oil filter also. FRAM is NOT a premium filter. Stick with a WIX, NAPA Gold, or Carquest filter.

[jduffett]

Cliff I haven't got anything new to add, but to reiterate what some others have said...
-most bimmer guys I know run 15w50
-seems common for the autoxer bimmer guys to run +1qt

Does boggle my mind though, putting ~9qts of oil in the car!

[JazzMZ3]

Cliff I haven't got anything new to add, but to reiterate what some others have said...
-most bimmer guys I know run 15w50
-seems common for the autoxer bimmer guys to run +1qt

Does boggle my mind though, putting ~9qts of oil in the car!

- 15W50 is dealer oil and partially-synthetic.
- 9 is way too much!

T.

[jduffett]

- 15W50 is dealer oil and partially-synthetic.
- 9 is way too much!

T.

Mobil 1 used to make 15W50, and though I thought they had discontinued it, I think I saw it the other day at Canadian Tire. Yeah you're probably right, I was just thinking '2 jugs + 1qt', but in reality the listed oil capacity for the M52 is probably ~7qts IIRC.

[Pete@Marcor]

I am less than convinced that an oil starvation issue will cause lifters to tick, minutes after the "starvation" occurs. I am still convinced it is the oil that is breaking down or getting thin.

A thicker oil will make this less likely to happen. An oil change will also lessen the occurance of the ticking.

I have had this issue before, in many different cars, and always make sure that I use a high enough grade or a thick enough oil, especially in the summer months.

I do run the thicker Mobil 1 in the summer, and Elf makes a 10W50 for BMW M-engines.

I do understand Marsh's position on this, and I have thought about it. I am just scared of putting thinner oil in an engine that already has an oil supply issue.

[sjd]

Hey Cliff, have you tried giving some of the BMW shops (such as Turner Motorsports) a call or an email to see what their thoughts are? Although I am sure some of them have already been echoed here.

[JazzMZ3]

Hey Cliff, have you tried giving some of the BMW shops (such as Turner Motorsports) a call or an email to see what their thoughts are? Although I am sure some of them have already been echoed here.

I've researched this too... turners' solution: http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=TEN3631B36
Through experimentation and data acquired from our E36 World Challenge Touring Cars, it was discovered that in long corners and under heavy braking that there was an oil starvation problem in the M50 and M52 engines. This system was developed to keep oil in the sump and eliminate the starvation problem. After several iterations, further testing and data acquisition in the Touring Cars showed that this system eliminates the problem of oil starvation. This is a less expensive alternative to replacing the stock oil pan with the factory BMW M3 Lightweight oil pan, while still achieving the similar results. *Requires Professional Welding

VAC Motorsports also has a similar kit.

...will be installing the Turner one before the next event in June.

T.

[blur911]

I've been running the Shell Rotella 15w-40 in my 911, as they took out some of the anti-wear additives in it as well a couple of years back I've been adding a bottle of GM Engine Oil Supplement to each oil change. It's basically a bottle of ZDDP additives used for break-in. It's needed in old engines that were never designed for the newer oils.
911 doesn't have hydraulic lifters, but I have an Audi turbo engine that does, oil changes would lessen the clatter, but new lifters made a huge difference. They do wear out sometimes after a few 100k. YMMV, Audi's are weird.

[Pete@Marcor]

YMMV, Audi's are weird.

Actually, Audi owners are weird. :)

[7plymaple]

Mobil 1 used to make 15W50, and though I thought they had discontinued it, I think I saw it the other day at Canadian Tire. Yeah you're probably right, I was just thinking '2 jugs + 1qt', but in reality the listed oil capacity for the M52 is probably ~7qts IIRC.

I just saw a 4.4L bottle of mobil 1 synthetic in 15W 50 last night for the first time last night.

Awsome info in this thread guys!

EDIT: I meant to say I saw the bottle of 15w 50 at Canadian Tire to confirm that they sell it.

[stealthie1]

I used to use the Mobil 1 15W50 and never had an issue with it, I have since switched over to the AMSOIL 15W50 race oil and it seems to hold oil pressure better at hotter temperatures than the Mobil 1 did.

[Slowpoke]

You wouldn't think that one lap of the DDT could heat the oil up that much, but with all of the brake/full throttle acceleration, and stretching the rev range to avoid shifts my oil temp got up to 105C as I came off the track. After removing the right fog cover to get more air across the oil cooler, it didn't go above 95C.

Temperature is a HUGE effect on viscosity. I tried 5W30 for a spring driving school in my stock car and was terrified to see the oil pressure below 1 bar as I idled after coming off the track! (Note: Low pressure does not mean low flow.) I started using higher and higher viscosities until I eventually ended up at 20W50 all summer long. My motor was quite happy with it.

I'm trying Mobil 1 15W50 for the first time in the beater. I won't have analysis data back on it until late summer/fall, so I can't comment on the zinc and phosphorous levels. Mobil 1 claims it has elevated levels for racing and turbos, but I trust analysis more than marketing. You shouldn't NEED high levels of zinc and phosphorous, (naturally aspirated cone cruncher), but it's nice for track driven cars.

The new Amsoil Race oils aren't like the old TRO race oil. They don't have the same amount of additives to neutralize acids, etc. They're meant for a day or weekend at the track and a change. That's why the NEW race oils don't have SAE or API ratings. (Unlike the old TRO that's no longer available, except from psychos who hoarded some! :rolleyes: )

The best dual purpose (street/track) oils from Amsoil are the AMO 10W40 and the ARO 20W50. High in zinc and phosphorous for high temperature wear protection, you can let these go a LONG time in your motor through competition and daily driving. (Don't ask me how I know, but the analysis came back fine. :o )

Amsoil 20W50 runs 10 deg C cooler for me than Motul 300V 15W50, which is a decent oil as well. Motul makes a 10W40 and 15W50 that have lots of zinc and phosphorous. I found that the 15W50 actually behaved a bit "thinner" than it's rating as far as oil pressure per temperature, but you can't beat an esther synthetic for breakdown resistance. Analysis came back great, but the price is a bit higher than the PAO Amsoils.

So, if you want to "whack the mole", jump right to a 20W50 and see if it resolves the problem. Castrol GTX 20W50 would be a cheap test ($18? at Can Tire?) Then you can back off to Castrol GTX 10W40 to see if that's all you need.

Then you can think about blending viscosities yourself. All of the Amsoils are compatible with one-another... I've been known to blend a 5W30 and 10W40 to get the right oil pressure behaviour during winter/spring temperature transition on a built motor with loose tolerances needing break-in.... You might find that 4L of 10W40 with 3L of 20W50 is what works for your motor.

[h-bomb]

Keep the same oil and switch to Honda. Keep it topped up and you'll be fine :)

[Slowpoke]

Keep the same oil and switch to Honda. Keep it topped up and you'll be fine :)


I can't help it. I tinker and do analysis even on the wife's Acura TL.

That 3.2L motor is something else. Granted, it doesn't get exercised like the Subie motor does, but 150k+ km and doesn't consume a drop. Oil doesn't even start to darken until 4500km are on the oil...

(Hey, Tashko warned you...)

[njansenv]

Hey Cliff. I have the S52 motor in my car, but it's not much different than yours. After a fair bit of reading, I decided to go to the heavier Mobil One oil: their Diesel variety (10W50?-can't remember at the moment). Rotella T synthetic (also "for diesels") is also very good apparently. The motor has always been quiet for me (150kms) and oil consumption is very low (1 liter per 6000km at the MOST). YMMV. :)

Nathan

[Cliff96]

Do you have an oil temperature guage in the car?
Unfortunately no oil temp gage in the car - although it may be in the ODBII data (I'll give it a quick check), and the pressure is a two-tone idiot light - no issues with it.

Revised lifters available? I don't know, I'll have to do more research in this area. But a quick search does not show and discontinued parts in that area of the engine

Use a quality filter I'm aware of the reports over on BITOG forums for filters for cheaper fram's(and most of what is sold in cdn tire), this engine has a paper element that gets replaced.

FWIW listed capacity is 6.5L of oil for the engine.

I don't think running on RA1's on a stock suspension will generate enough grip to cause starvation issues, but I will need to consider the turner pan kit you posted JazzMZ3.

Slowpoke - I'd be interested to hear the results you get back from the 15W50 M1, what lab do you use for your analysis?

Nathan - I can echo the low consumption, it isn't an issue for this engine.

I'll be giving the heavier Mobil1 a shot and keeping an eye on the other details suggested above.

Thanks everyone for your contributions in this thread, there is a bunch of great info here.

[Slowpoke]

My current fave is http://www.wearcheck.ca MOB 1 testing. MOB 2 is fine if you're going extended drains, but you really don't need the TAN test if you're changing at 6K on a good oil. MOB 2 testing is $10 more than MOB 1. They're also local to Burlington if you need results in a rush. I've dropped a sample off in the morning and had results the same night. I've liked the analysis (interpretation of results) that I get from Wearcheck as well.

I think that SPDA might buy a set of MOB 1 by the dozen ($19 + tax per test) and members can buy it from the club for $22 a piece. (Because we don't want to handle $0.53 change. ;) ) I have to convince my fellow executive, though.

http://www.oaitesting.com is available through Amsoil dealers. This USED TO BE a screaming deal... TBN (or TAN if you prefer) testing included at $20.50 wholesale cost. But they've driven the price up 59% in the last 6 months to $32.50. Still not bad, but you have to post it to Edmonton or Wisconsin, so there's extra postal delay. Also, they charge extra for follow-up testing that Wearcheck will do for free. e.g.: Glycol test if sodium is high.

Most of the Subaru community uses Blackstone labs out of Texas. Decent pricing available from 6 units and up. Can't say anything bad about them... their analysis is good. I just try to buy in Canada if I can.

[Slowpoke]

Got my first analysis of the Amsoil Dominator 15W50 after putting 2500 km on it over 7 weeks. (Car is now only used to drive to the track, flog at the track, drive home.)

Calcium (acid neutralizer) is lower than any API grade oil I've run, (1858), but Phosphorous and Zinc are super high (1099, 1345). TBN was 5.57, so not a lot of long run capacity, but this is BETTER than Castrol Syntec at the end of a 7500km interval.

However, viscosity came in at 15.3 CS @ 100C which is a bit low for a 15W50, and lower than the 18.9 they list on the product sheet. I didn't do a virgin sample, so this formula might be losing viscosity quickly. (Fuel contamination <1%, water <.1, so it doesn't appear contaminated in that way.) 15.3 is close to 10W40 level.

Oddly enough, found moderate potassium and molybdenum in this analysis (76,43 where before I had 2 and 1), so this might just be an odd duck formulation.

Conclusion: 2500km may be pushing it for the viscosity. I'd have to do a virgin sample to really know for sure that it didn't start that low.

[Black Shadow]

Asking car guys about oil is worse than asking women about shoes.:D

[Slowpoke]

Asking car guys about oil is worse than asking women about shoes.:D

Who the hell would want to ask a woman about shoes??? :D

[Maddog]

Thanks for the info Stephen. I'm running Dominator 10W30 right now in the track car, but as it goes down I'm topping up with AMO 10W40. My oil temps at Mosport on Sunday never went higher than 260F, and I don't even have an oil cooler, and the outside temp wasn't that low on Sunday either.

My idle oil pressures are 60-70 cold, 50 warm, and 30 after a 10 mins lapping session which is within spec for this motor considering it has over 165k kms and now being constantly abused..LOL.

I'll be doing an analysis at the end of the season. I use Blackstone and have had great service. I usually get PDF results file in my inbox within 5-8 business days after shipping, then I get a paper copy a few days later.