1991 Civic Si - Solo I - Stock Class Setup

[Jay]

Hey folks,

I am new to Solo I, and therefore have a million questions to ask. I'll limit this thread to a couple:

I just purchased a 1991 Civic Si hatchback. I intend to compete in Solo I stock class.

(1) DAMPERS - Which brand is best? Do I need adjustables? Can I get these used anywhere? Where is the best place to buy them? Cost New? Cost used?

(2) TIRES - Does Solo I have some sort of a "Street tire bonus" thing.... ie. Are R-compound tires truly the fastest setup? (Perhaps I am having a head-implosion re. "Street tire bonus" er........was that a solo II thing.?
Asuming that R compound tires are the quickest. I have a nice set of 13" X 6" aluminum rims with baked 185/60/13 R1's on em. What would be the best tire to mount on these rims? Will 215/50/13 fit? Where do I buy them? Cost?

WET TIRES - What is the hot setup for wet tires? Can you simply run some Near new RE71's, or do people run sticky rain tires? Should I purchase new TOYO Proxess R Compound for wet and dry?

(3) PADS - Which are best for my car? Cost? Where can I buy them?

(4) INTAKE - Is a K&N Dropin worth the money?

(5) Tracks - Which tracks are best? I want to pre-register. Just wondering which tracks are most fun in a stock FWD hatch?


Thanks people

[ctenche]

Wow. You're right. Those are a lot of questions. I'll try to answer them.

>I just purchased a 1991 Civic Si hatchback. I intend to compete in Solo I stock class.

(shameless plug) If you don't already belong to a CASC affiliated club, which you will need to before you can get your Solo 1 licence, have a look at the HADA Motorsport Club. HADA stands for Honda Acura Drivers' Association. We're all H/A driven and very racing focused. See the link in my sig below.

>DAMPERS - Which brand is best? Do I need adjustables? Can I get these used anywhere? Where is the best place to buy them? Cost New? Cost used?

Which dampers are the best is a tough one. How much money do you have? Seriously, are you in the Penske/Racing Dynamics/Ohlins range or the Koni/Biltstein range? Koni's will do the trick at the amateur level. Adjustability is good. Single adjustables are great; double are great; quadruple is even better. Again, it all comes down to cost. You can pick up Koni's at Northern Performance for a reasonable price - in the sub $200 a corner range.

>(2) TIRES - Does Solo I have some sort of a "Street tire bonus" thing

Nope. No street tire bonus. That's only for Solo 2.

>I have a nice set of 13" X 6" aluminum rims with baked 185/60/13 R1's on em. What would be the best tire to mount on these rims? Will 215/50/13 fit? Where do I buy them? Cost?

215 will probably fit on a 6" rim but you should check with the tire manufacturer. Most tire companies will tell you what minimum, recommended and maximum wheel widths will fit the various sizes of their tires. You can dig all this info up on their web site. Tire prices vary with the hotest tire (Hoosier) costing the most $$$ and lasting the least. Most people have found that the Toyo RA-1's provide the biggest bang for the buck. They're a good R compound and last a long time. Costs vary depending on size but you can probably find them in the $150 a corner range.

>(3) PADS - Which are best for my car?

You have your choice of Hawk, Porterfields, Performance Friction, etc. They all make good track compounds. Check out the archives in the For Sale/Wanted forum and you'll come across an early post from Dave who sells Hawk pads.

>(4) INTAKE - Is a K&N Dropin worth the money?

From a performance perspective, no. However it might be cheaper in the long run than the paper filters.

>(5) Tracks - Which tracks are best? I want to pre-register. Just wondering which tracks are most fun in a stock FWD hatch?

They're all good. All the tracks have their own pluses and minuses. The beauty is that they're all different and offer different challenges. I like Shannonville for its fast sweepers. I like Mosport for its elevation changes and I like Cayuga for its esses. It's all good.

If you're looking to preregister come on out to the Solo Open House on April 1st at CSC racing products.

[Dave]

w00t! Another Honda man :)

For shocks, I'd definitely suggest adjustables. The added tunability and stiffness really do make a considerably difference on the track. I used Koni single adjustables on my 99 Honda Prelude and was very happy with them. They're a good value and can be found on the internet used if you search some of the Honda message boards (ie. honda-tech.com) as well as some resale sites like the classified at sohfast.com or thepartstrader.com. You do take your chances buying used, although I bought mine used and it wasn't a problem. I paid $400 for my used Konis, expect to pay at least $200 more for new. I'd suggest calling Pete Mills at Northern Performance (905-549-2206). He raced a Civic Si of the same model as yours for several years in the Firehawk series (now Motorola Cup) so he's very familiar with what works best on your car. He sells just about any aftermarket part you might be after and Northern Performance is a Solo1 sponsor so it's always good to support our supporters.

There's no street tire bonus in Solo 1, only Solo 2. I don't think there's any question Hoosiers are the fastest R compound right now, although they're also very expensive. Kumhos seem to be next fastest and are considerably cheaper, with BFG, Yokohama, and Toyo rounding out your choices. The Toyos seem to last the longest, are the cheapest to buy, and at full tread depth are excellent rain tires. A popular way to go seem to be having a set of full tread depth Toyos for the rain and a set of Kumhos or Hoosiers for the dry.

Hawks and Porterfields seem to be the two most popular pads among the Solo1 crowd. Hawks are cheaper than the Porterfields and a lot easier to get locally. Essex Distribution and David Swain Racing sell Hawks, as do I. Feel free to drop me an e-mail if you want a price quote and some general info about Hawk pads. My e-mail addy is dpratte4@home.com or prattedg@mcmaster.ca.

A K&N filter might give you a horsepower or two, and it's certainly more durable and longer lasting than a stock filter. They're kind of expensive (around $50), but to some they're worth it if you're looking to milk every last bit of power out of the car that you can.

Preference on race tracks is really a personal thing. Some folks love the elavation changes of the DDT track at Mosport, some people love the high speed of the Pro track at Shannonville, others prefer the combination of technical corners and long straight away of Fabi. I personally really enjoy the new Cayuga track, although it's certainly not as technical as Fabi or the DDT.

Honestly, I think Pete Mills at Northern is going to be about the best source available on your generation of Civic Si. Pete's a longtime Solo competitor and is always happy to help newcomers to the sport. Just tell him what your plans are and he'll get you pointed in the right direction.

Cheers,
Dave

[Dave]

Too funny! Caius beat me to the bunch by half a second!

[Chris P]

I think i can help with a few of those questions.

(1) DAMPERS - The best brand is quite debatable, Personlly i like KONI's but my expirence is quite limited. the brands to look out for are KONI, Tokico, Tien, Moton, Mugen, Penske......i'm sure i've missed quite a few. I would recomend adjustibles however they are more expensive but the money will pay off at the track.
Try
http://resource.crx.org/
www.crxhq.com
http://www.clubsi.com/
I don't know what's avaible used but it's worth having a look.
Cost for new will probally be around $600. Used, $400.

For new you can try Northern or www.slickproformence.com, http://www.opmmotorsports.com/honda.html

there are other places to get these maybe somebody else could give some links or something.

2) There is no tire bonus in SOLO 1. Yes R compounds are much faster then street tires. Maybe 2 or 3 secounds different. I have simular rims and i believe the 215's will fit. I don't know the cost of R compounds, sorry. Kumho's are the best value. They are fast and seem to last unlike hoosiers. That's what i would recommend. Or you can buy some Hankook Z2000's for about $400 but not as good as the other TRUE R compounds. Most people don't have rain tires.......no real need for them.

3) either www.porterfield-brakes.com or hawks. The same place that has shocks should have pads. Give them a try.


4)Ummmmm................yes
5)Try running the whole series if you have the money. All the tracks are good. If you want to save yourself travel and want to run on smouth tracks then Mosport DDT and Cayuaga are your best bets.

Hope this helps

[Chris P]

Blast...........i've been beat again............ :)

[ctenche]

Ha ha ha!

This is really funny. Three posts from thee HADA members all within a minute of each other.

[Jay]

Thanks for the help guys.

As for the rain tire Issue. I was just imagining having spent $$$ for a two day weekend that turns out to be a down pour, and not being competitive (Or worse not able to run) on BFG tires.


The Toyos and the Kumos look like they might have enough tread depth for rain. But half way through the season might they be too worn for rain use? Are they not as quick as BFG's in the dry?

Would a newish set of performance street tires be good in heavy rain.... say Bridgestone Potenza RE 71's? Then you could run the faster BFG's in the dry?

In otherwords are the Toyo's a compramize tire.... OK to use in the rain , but not as quick in the dry...


Ya smell what I am cookin?

then again BFG no longer makes a 13' competition tire, so maybe I'll just shut up and mount some Kumos.


Jay

BOTTOM LINE

How do Kumo's vs. Toyo's perform in the wet, and in the dry?

[Dave]

in my experience Kumhos are considerably better in the dry but the Toyos are amazing in the wet. A full tread Kumho is probably quite good in the wet, but the tread wears down much faster on the Kumhos than on the Toyos. Longterm you're probably much better off with Toyos as rain tires. If you only use them as rain tires, they'll last for several seasons. The Toyos really aren't all that bad in the dry either. As a beginner tire I think they're wonderful. They give you a lot of feedback with some tire squeal when you begin to approach the limit of adhesion and because they're so long lasting they really are tremendous value for a first season. They're also great for lapping days because they last so long. If you're on a budget, I don't think you can beat the Toyos.

If you want a faster set of dry tires, Kumhos seem to be the best value right now. Or if money is no object, get a set of Hoosiers for the dry and a a set of Hoosier rain tires too.

[Chris P]

Just remember that it doesn't rain for a full day very often. If your on a budget then only worry about the dry. Which would be the kumho's.

[Jay]

Good point,

I suppose that the Kumos would be good even in heavy rain for the first part of the season. I could then add to a second set of Toyo's later (For rain).

[Shaman]

I wish money was no object. :(

And if I had two more points, I'd have 900hp. It just happens that way sometimes. :D

[ctenche]

Jay, do you have any Solo 2 or Solo 1 or lapping day experience?

If not, or if only minimally, I wouldn't worry too much about being competitive right off the bat. The "nut behind the wheel" as they say is where you're going to be making up the time.

If you're on a budget, I would recommend to get a set of Toyo's. They'll be full tread in the beginning of the season (when it usually rains) and will wear down as the season keeps going.

How many events are you planning on doing anyway?

[Jay]

Yep, I have done some Solo II events. Even won a couple.

As for Solo I, my only experience was a WOSCA day of lapping at Waterford hills. I really enjoyed it. I agree with the "Nut behind the wheel" theory. You are right.

I do however, want to have a good setup. I think I will mount some 205/60/13 Victoracers onto my 13X6 alloys.

As for events I will run, I am still undecided.... I suppose whatever the budget will allow. I have heard that it is good to run two consecutive events on the same weekend. That way you can be quicker on day 2. Then again running non-consecutive events would "Spread out the fun" throughout the summer.


Q's

Where is the best place near Hamilton to get my mitts on said Kumos? How much $?

Does anyone still stock 13' BFG Comp T/A R1's? (I like the "camber effect" for stock class)

In "Tire rack" print ads they recomend shaving Kumos for the track. Are you saying to buy them full tread for the track? (I suppose they would still work and be suitable for rain later into the season)

I guess I can't remove the resonator on my intake in stock class?.... Grrrrrrr The intake tune is sweet at WOT.

Is heat cycling worth it? How much?

How many events would full tread Kumos (On a civic) remain rain-worthy?

I find heel and toe downshifting (at full braking) tough with the new car. I believe the problem stems from an excessive gap between the brake and gas petals. Have you guys tried a wider "Competition" brake petal. Can this help?

Is there an advantage to running 2 events in the same weekend vs. two in separate weekends?

[Shaman]

I have a wide competition pedal. I find it a nuisance on the street, and elsewhere, but most of the time I think it's great on the track. I've got my foot under the pedals before, but my racing booties helped that out. :)

[ctenche]

I'm not sure of any places in Hamilton that carry Kumho's. The only place that I know of around the GTA is Oshawa Tire who are actually a Solo 1 sponsor. I have no idea how much they would cost in your size but give Andreas at Osahwa Tire a call (905-725-6511) and he will be able to help you out.

BFG went out of the racing tire business. They stopped making them completely except for the ones they supply to the TransAm series and I think once their contract expires there, they will stop all together.

A friend in a Civic did back to back tests between the old style BFG R1s and Toyo RA-1s and he found no difference in lap times. He said that the R1s were indeed much better in Solo 2 due to their sidewall construction but he didn't think they offered a benefit over the RA-1's when it came to Solo 1. He is a very knowledgeable and extremely good driver so I trust his findings completely.

Buy the Kumhos full tread and forget about shaving them. At full tread they will be good rain tires. Once shaved, they will not. Shaving really helps when you want to get the max out of your tires right away, but it obviously reduces the tire's life span.

I personally haven't done heat cycling testing, to see if it makes a difference in tire longevity, but I do heat cycle my tires before I first use them. You don't need to get Tire Rack to do it for you; you can do it yourself. Bring them up to temp slowly, keep them there for about 30 minutes then take them off your car and let them rest for at least 24 hours.

It's hard to say how many events a new set of Kumhos will stay rain worthy; 3? 4? 5? It really depends on your driving. Some people are really light on their tires, others, use their tires instead of their brakes to scrub off speed. It really varies.

There is some advantage to running two consecutive events in that you will be building your skills with each event. Keep in mind that most often, Saturday/Sunday events will be on different circuits so there isn't really an advantage there. If you're not going to be running 8 events to be considered for the overall or class championships, does it really matter?

Lastly in regards to brake pedals again, it varies. It all comes down to driver prefernces. Most people like the extra width that aftermarket pedals offer, others do not. Besides the width, you also have to consider the height relationship between the brake and gas pedal. When you're on the clampers real hard, the gas pedal might be too high up to heal-toe properly. YMMV.

[Dave]

Jay, I live the Hamilton area and I don't know of any place that carries Victoracers. The two places I do know of, other than Tire Rack, are Oshawa Tire (905-725-6511; ask for Andreas and tell him you're a Solo competitor) and Talon Tires in Montreal (514-337-0833). Both are excellent shops with competitive prices. Obviously Oshawa Tire is closer, though not exactly convenient for we Hamiltonians.

Shaving your tires will help dry weather grip, but it will also shorten the life of your tires (for obvious reasons) and will make them less rain friendly. Kumhos don't have a lot of tread depth to begin with, so I'd just leave them at full depth and enjoy the added security in the spring in case of rain. Within 3 or 4 events you won't have much tread left, so they'll get faster as the season goes on, which is a good thing since you'll be familiarizing yourself with the different tracks we run.

Heat cycling is a very good idea if you want your tires to last. You can heat cycle them yourself by simply bringing them up to temperature (running them at highway speed for an hour or so, preferrably in warm weather so you can get some heat into them) and then letting them sit (take them off the car for this) for 48 hours. That should do it.

Removing your resonator isn't an allowable mod in Stock class.

I had Sparco competition pedals in my Prelude and I found them helpful on the track but a bit of a pain on the street because I'd be partially on the gas sometimes while braking. Once I got used to them on the street, it wasn't a problem. I'm still not much of a heel-and-toe guy, but that's just because I'm too stupid to practice :)

Hope this helps,
Dave

[Dave]

Ok Caius, that's not even funny anymore ;) Quit stilling my thunder you bastard! I work at home, what's your excuse!? Sheesh...

Shutting up now,
Dave

[Jay]

Isn't there a HADA meeting Mar 21? If so we can discuss then. I am planing to attend.

Jay

[ctenche]

I'm sneaky with a capital S. Bwa ha ha ha ha.

Jay, yeah, there's a club meeting on the 21st. See you then!

[Chris P]

Another place to get those tires is Wheel & Tire Zone.
They are located in Missauga(sp?).
My father and my self used them last year. Very good service and Andrew seems to be able to get anything you want for a good price. Tell him you’re a SOLO competitor. It's also a little closer to where you are located.


here's a link to there site.
http://www.wheelandtirezone.com/

First time i've seen the site. i like it

[Dave]

hey, great call Chris! I didn't realize Wheel&Tire Zone carried Kumhos. I'll definitely give them a try this year. I believe they're a Solo 1 sponsor, so that's a bonus too.

I think I'll give them a call right now :)

[Shaman]

I called them... they won't know any pricing or availability until near the end of the month. I don't want to get stuck without tires. :(

I may have to go tirerack.com - even with shipping, taxes and the rest, it'll be cheaper. That sucks.

[Theo]

Jay,
To avoid any embarassment I thought I'd let you know that any guests at HADA meetings are required to purchase a beer for anyone who has been, or curently is the V.P. Of HADA.

That would be Dave, Caius and myself.

Just trying to help out!

In all honestly though, I hope to see you there and make sure you show up ready to ask alot of questions, hopefully we can provide lots of answers

[Jay]

The Yanks are likely NOT cheaper

Tirerack.com quoted me $430.52USD (Approx $646 CAD) for 4 205/60/13 Kumos. That was "Everything included" price shipped to Ontario. I am still trying to determine if that price included duty, or if Canada customs will slap an additional tax on top of that price..... soooo

I called Canada Customs. They told me that I will have to pay GST and PST on the value of the tires thats $96.90

If the tires were made in the USA they fall under NAFTA and there is no duty. If made somewhere else there can be a duty up to 8% duty.. so that could be up to %51.68.

Ohhh I almost forgot. Canada post charges $5-10 for a collection of tax fee..... FedEX etc collect $10-50 fee


So the grand total could be $747CAD to $845CAD.. depending. Thats more than Wheel and Tire Zone.

Where are Kumos made?

[Shaman]

Mine were $1280 from Wheel & Tire Zone or Osh. Tire after taxes. (275/40/17)

From Tire Rack, they're under $1100 CDN inclusive, shipped to my door.

[Jay]

Shaman,

So was the price you paid Tirerack the same price they quoted?
Do you know how much tax/duty you paid?
Were these Kumos?

Jay

[Shaman]

Kumho V700s. And yes, the price quoted is the price paid.

Last year I ordered from them and paid $1021 complete for my racing set.

I'd love to deal in Canada. Even locally. But nobody keeps any stock and they're 20% more expensive after Solo-1 discount than the everyday price at Tire Rack. I go through at least two sets a year, so I can't afford to ignore that. :(

[Jay]

So neither customs, courier, or Canada post came looking for 15% sales tax? The customs people told me on the phone that there was a 15% sales tax on all purchases.

Perhaps this tax was hidden in the price quoted by tirerack!?!?!

[Brent]

Has anybody used Yokohama Ao32R's for solo1, I used them last year in solo2. They are the only set of R compound tires that I have tried, so I have nothing to compare them to.
They seem cheap compared to what I see people pay for the kumo's. I bought four 205/50/15 Ao32R's and four 15x7 aluminum wheels for less than $1200 from Wheel and Tire Zone last year. The tires were $170 each and the wheels $125 each.

[Theo]

Oshawa tire quoted me $206 per corner + tax.
That was for 205/50/15.
That's $947.60 with taxes.

If you want 13" rubber, I think it would be slightly less.

Toyo's RA1's can be had in 205/50/15 for about $160 per corner. $736 with taxes.

[racerrex]

If you want a good R1 13" tire in a 185-60-13 size call Canada Supply and Tire in Scarborough and ask them for the Hankook Z2000 R1 tire, I used to run those on my 90 hatch with 13" 87 special edition prelude rims. Those rims and that tire size is a great set up.