*** important car classification changes for event #1 *** please read now!!!

[Slowpoke]

While you weren't looking, some things have changed in the rules that you may not have noticed.

Printed 2009 CCDB Declaration Available from Competitors at ALL Events:
Read 1.6.7. Competitors are responsible for carrying their own printed classification declarations at every event!! It must be a re-submission for 2009. If you can not produce your declaration to an event official or a fellow competitor, you will be scored in modified for that day. If you have not submitted your 2009 classification yet, you should do so IMMEDIATELY! 2008 Classifications are no longer valid!


Aftermarket Belts / Harnesses:
Read 1.1.7 if you're not using your OE or DOT approved belts! SoloSprint is now enforcing the expiration dates!!!


Rollbar Padding:
Read 1.3.8 if you have roll-over protection! You are required to use FIA or SFI certified roll bar padding for areas that your helmet might come into contact with the bars.


Dyno Plot Submissions
If you wish for your dyno plot to be accepted at the DDT, please SUBMIT your CCDB classification 1 week in advance. A separate post will provide a work-around for the changes in 5.0.H.9 and 5.0.H.10 until the CCDB can be updated.

[ADAM]

"Aftermarket Belts / Harnesses:
Read 1.1.7 if you're not using your OE or DOT approved belts! SoloSprint is now enforcing the expiration dates!!!"

so we cant run without current belts?

[Slowpoke]

That is the rule.

If you bribe the Scrutineers with home-baked goods at the DDT you might get some leniency. I doubt you will find any at Shannonville regardless of how good the fudge brownies are.

[ADAM]

that kinda adds an unnecessary added cost to our sport no?

are we using the FIA or SFI rules?

its gonna make more people run with thier "safe" OEM belts vs "dangerous" expired race harness no?

does anyone really think that these expiry dates on belts make any sense?

one strap from a harness could lift up a car let alone 5 of them..

unless a rat has chewed thru them..

why would you not leave this to the descretion of the competitor?

our series safety rules are designed that way anyway..where the onus is on the competitor deciding if thier car is safe or not...VS the series deciding

[ADAM]

hmmm...I guess with the other rule ..that this really only effects caged cars..

so the OEM issue is moot

[thgear]

blame FIA, and the weird insurance mechanics.

[ADAM]

yeah well reality and insurance are 2 vastly different things

[ShaneG]

So......could you run an expired harness over an OEM seatbelt?


no roll bar = no harness for me anyway, curious non-the-less.

[Slowpoke]

Adam, the belt rule change does not affect the majority of the competitors who choose to use OEM safety equipment. It only affects those who have decided to abandon OEM tested safety systems and install aftermarket equipment.

Most of us have seen this coming since the ASN Canada lapping regulations were introduced in 2007 and have required valid FIA or SFI belts. Why should Solo competition have lower standards than lapping rules?

There wil be a bulletin coming from ASN Canada addressing safety equipment (cages, harnesses, H&N restraints, belts, seats, etc.) that will further affect our rules but I can't tell you when that will arrive, nor when it will take effect. It might come this year... might not. If you are building a cage now, get it logbooked FAST.

I am NOT involved in its development of this bulletin and can't tell you what it will entail. However, the use of valid FIA homologated belts will be accepted. That would be what I would purchase today if I had to make the choice.

[kmorris]

If you can not produce your declaration to an event official or a fellow competitor, you will be scored in modified for that day.

Wooohooo a full class in Mod!

[Maddog]

I agree that this is an unnecessary added expense for a solo series. Personally, I'm good for the next 2 years using the "5 year rule" as stated but not everyone will be so lucky. A 5 point, even if not in the best condition, will still be better than a cheesy OEM 3 point IMO.

[Slowpoke]

I agree that this is an unnecessary added expense for a solo series. Personally, I'm good for the next 2 years using the "5 year rule" as stated but not everyone will be so lucky. A 5 point, even if not in the best condition, will still be better than a cheesy OEM 3 point IMO.

Please keep in mind that SFI 16.1 belts expire two years after manufacture. Thus, the "five year" aspect doesn't apply to SFI 16.1 or 16.5 certified belts. FIA homologated belts are five years.

[Slowpoke]

So......could you run an expired harness over an OEM seatbelt?

Assuming that you don't have a deep race bucket that would prevent the OEM three point from sitting tightly across your lap and shoulder, I don't see a reason why the scrutineers would not allow this. But, it's always best to Email the Chief Scrutineer if in doubt.

[ADAM]

"Adam, the belt rule change does not affect the majority of the competitors who choose to use OEM safety equipment. It only affects those who have decided to abandon OEM tested safety systems and install aftermarket equipment."


so on one hand we allow competitors to remove the OEM safety systems ...like say..the whole bumper system to save weight.....

or allowing oem cars to run around highly modified without any sort of crash protection...

or for that matter mandating roll over protection?

yet are worried about a aftermarket 5 point harness somehow disintigrating after 5 years?

seems a slightly silly line of thinking IMO

[MazdaMatt]

So bought a road racers' expired belts so I could have added safety in my car and now they are garbage... I was hoping that I could squeeze enough money out of the budget to take my car out at least once this year, but an extra few hundred dollars scraps that plan. This rule is crap. So much for budget racing.

[ADAM]

yep...not exactly great for the racing budget...

now on top of trying to get the friggen car fixed for next weekend..I have to run over to CSC to get a new set of belts..install them....and possibly chuck out a perfectly good set of race belts...


(maybe mine are still good...will have to see)

mean while...all other kinds if vastly greater safety issues are glaring in our race series...

either we go balls out and just adpot the wheel to wheel safety specs or not..this kinda trickle effect is no good...

[thgear]

talk to ASN/FIA Adam, you have their contact info.

THEY made a silly rule, and THEY want US to enforce it.

either that or we dont get insurance, take your pick.

[thgear]

So bought a road racers' expired belts so I could have added safety in my car and now they are garbage... I was hoping that I could squeeze enough money out of the budget to take my car out at least once this year, but an extra few hundred dollars scraps that plan. This rule is crap. So much for budget racing.

Solosprint is a grassroots motorsport

maybe if people stopped bringing out decked out RACE CARS there would not be any problems.

[Slowpoke]

http://www.gforce.com/programs/reweb.php

Leaf Latch Type: $30 discount on return of expired Latch Type towards purchase of new belts
Leaf Camlocks rewebbed: $75

Simpson offers 20% off purchase of new belts when you trade in the tags on your expired belts.

Contact other manufacturers here:
http://www.sfifoundation.com/manuf.html

[Maddog]

Please keep in mind that SFI 16.1 belts expire two years after manufacture. Thus, the "five year" aspect doesn't apply to SFI 16.1 or 16.5 certified belts. FIA homologated belts are five years.Well if that's the case, I guess I can request a refund for my pre-purchased events for this year as I'm not forking out another $400 for a set of belts when mine are perfectly fine. It's BS...I guess I'm just doing lapping days this year, and maybe forever. I just saved myself a whole lot of money this summer. :mad:

[Maddog]

Oh, and not to mention I would need 2 new belt setups if I want to run the MIR school in July for the instructor!!!! Yeah, whatever. :cool:

[thgear]

or just put in your old seat and 3point? :rolleyes:

[MazdaMatt]

Funny thing... In the past I HAD a 3-point harness in my passenger side and I was told that it was unsafe because I have no inner door panels for someone to hold on to. The instructors were flopping around in my car. I think it was adam who actually whacked his helmet against mine when i made a hard right.

Serge - we're not debating the acceptance of LOW COST and GRASS ROOTS track only cars. You've seen my car. You can't tell me I'm not "grass roots" driving that ugly beast around.

Slowpoke, to clarify your post... I can take my Leaf camlock back to Leaf racing in London and they will put new belts on the cam with a new date tag for 75 bucks? I'm much less annoyed with this rule if that is true. I'm screwed on the passenger side as it is a sparco 4pt belt with a "normal" latch in the middle.

[Doug P]

Something I found strange from the school.

A convertible that still has a roof must run with it up. If your roof was romoved you can run with arm restraints.

Why can a competitor not choose to use arm restraints and kept his roof down?

Was the belt expiry date added this year? i thought it was always there.

[thgear]

Serge - we're not debating the acceptance of LOW COST and GRASS ROOTS track only cars. You've seen my car. You can't tell me I'm not "grass roots" driving that ugly beast around.


you're missing the point, people are coming out with cars prepped like a race car, so, they should abide by race car rules.

your ugly beast is still purpose built.

people can have alot of fun just bombing around in OEM vehicles.

Personally i do not welcome the likes of Super 7's, Adam's v8 monstrocity, or guys that show up with a race team and trailer, but that is my stance on the sport.

Chris P raced his CRX until the OEM seat broke off its latches! (DDT 2006, i think)....

but thats a different subject all together.

A few people are going to be pissed about this new rule, but as was mentioned several times the mandate is coming from upstairs

and upstairs is not a good place, unfortunetly we have to listen to them... (until we can find ways to insure ourselves, and could generate a large enough income to front the yearly expenses)

[ShaneG]

Matt,
IIRC some of the Sparco 4pts were DOT approved, if yours was, I as I read the rule, you are good to go...(on the passenger side)

I also am not happy with the new rule, I was / am planning a roll bar next year...(again) so this adds more to the costs....
new helmet (I am planning one anyway)
Roll bar
HANS (I’d like a clarification on what will and will not be allowed / suggested / recommended before I get one
And now new belts

but lets not shoot the messenger…in the grand scheme of things the additional costs are not that crazy….BUT it the ridiculously short replacement periods.
I foresee that if when I go that route, my next set of belts will probably expire with less than 6 hours on the track!

oh and Serge, the trend toward more and more prepared cars will likely continue as the Fast and the Furious A$$clowns make a name for themselves and ruin ours.

I have taken the plates off my car because "I" don't need to run the risk of being hasseled endlessly so this IS the cheaper way for me...and I suspect that Matt some others are in the same boat....

on a side note I went up to Rama yesterday I saw about 4-5 cars pulled over...All were Civics! common or garden variety Civics, but ALL Civics non the less... I'm not sure how to interpret that;)

[Cap'n Pete]

or just put in your old seat and 3point? :rolleyes:
He installed a roll cage. Are you saying you'd recommend removing that so he can go back to OEM seat & belt? I thought we "encourage" people to upgrade the safety of their vehicles? ;)

[Pete@Marcor]

I am not as familiar with the rule set as I should probably be, if I were running these events consistently.

Do the rules allow for a level of checking the age and condition of an OE belt? If not, then are the safety guys OK with telling a competitor that a 25 year old OE belt is safer than a 5 year old 5 point?

I fully understand the need to make rules for all of the possibilities of stuff, but arbitrarily deciding an age seems a little strange.

If this is a mandated rule from ASN, then it really does not matter what we think, but I think they should at least know the opinions.

We need to make rules that make sense, and are justifiable.

[Chris P]

It's really a grab so I can make money at the track. ..............Get your race belts, get your belts......$500/set........ kidding :D

[Chuck91GT]

SoloSprint is basically a street car oriented searies. Over the years, competitors have chosen to modify their cars to improve their performance levels. Now we have modified engines, suspensions, brakes, aero, tires and altered interiors. To accomplish this competitors have purchased aftermarket products with accompanying expiry dates - helmets, belts and harnesses.

If you have an issue with any of these products and their manufacturer imposed expiry dates, I would suggest that you take up that issue with them. Ask them why certain harnesses have a 2 year expiry date and others 5 years. They will tell you that it is because of the material composition. Your argument is with them, not SoloSprint.

One of the mandates of SoloSprint is to make the sport as safe as possible. We are endeavouring to do that to the best of our abilities. We do not have the means to test products so we have to rely on the manufacturers and third party testing results. As you continue to modify your cars in ways that we never thought of, the SoloSprint Committee, the CCC and myself have to take a stand and make decisions. They are not always made easily and a considerable amount of time and effort is put into these decisions. Each member of the SoloSprint Committee and the CCC is bound by the same rules and all the points that you have made so far have come up in the inhouse discussions.

Stephen has brought to our attention the fact that expired SFI harnesses can be upgraded at a very reasonable cost. Check out the location in an earlier portion of this thread.

Safety is our first priority and it should be yours as well. New harnesses for $200 - $400 or a lifetime of suffering if the expired ones don't function properly? Racing is inherently dangerous so protect yourself as well as you can. Before you modify your car you should think about the safety aspects first. Some of our SoloSprint cars are rivaling, if not surpassing, the speeds of properly configured race cars!

[angus macsac]

If you can not produce your declaration to an event official or a fellow competitor, you will be scored in modified for that day.

I think I would prefer to run in modified any way - fewer hasselhoffs that way, easier day of toolin' around having fun which is what it's all about anyway

[Ytzman]

Ok, it seems the scrutineering is going to be a little more picky this year, so I have to ask again (since I haven't gotten any responses yet)

Will I be able to run my car with the roll bar in the configuration it was at the school?

original post:
Ok, so I know there was some concern about the placement of the rear supports for the main hoop on my car. A suggestion was made to move them from the rear strut towers down to the frame rail, which I should have done in the first place, but I see most are done to the shock towers so I didn't think of it at the time.
I don't know if I have enough time before event 1-2 to complete this change as I've got some other issues to deal with, and I want to make sure that I'll be able to run with the way it is, at least for these 2 events.
I'm not taking the -1 pip for the roll bar, so it shouldn't a question of classification, just safety, and I figure it's better this way, than not having it at all.
Any insite, or direction would be appreciated.

[Cap'n Pete]

Ok, it seems the scrutineering is going to be a little more picky this year, so I have to ask again (since I haven't gotten any responses yet)

Will I be able to run my car with the roll bar in the configuration it was at the school?
Did Joe or Derrick have a look at it?

[Ytzman]

Yes, Joe was the one who made the suggestion of moving the bars.
I was able to run some practice laps at the school, but I just don't want to show up to the track and have to turn around and go home.

Later

[Slowpoke]

Bram, it's best to Email or phone Joe directly. His contact info is on page 2 of the rulebook.

[68vette]

Yes, Joe was the one who made the suggestion of moving the bars.
I was able to run some practice laps at the school, but I just don't want to show up to the track and have to turn around and go home.

Later

PM sent.

[shawn cormier]

SoloSprint is basically a street car oriented searies. Over the years, competitors have chosen to modify their cars to improve their performance levels. Now we have modified engines, suspensions, brakes, aero, tires and altered interiors. To accomplish this competitors have purchased aftermarket products with accompanying expiry dates - helmets, belts and harnesses.

If you have an issue with any of these products and their manufacturer imposed expiry dates, I would suggest that you take up that issue with them. Ask them why certain harnesses have a 2 year expiry date and others 5 years. They will tell you that it is because of the material composition. Your argument is with them, not SoloSprint.

One of the mandates of SoloSprint is to make the sport as safe as possible. We are endeavouring to do that to the best of our abilities. We do not have the means to test products so we have to rely on the manufacturers and third party testing results. As you continue to modify your cars in ways that we never thought of, the SoloSprint Committee, the CCC and myself have to take a stand and make decisions. They are not always made easily and a considerable amount of time and effort is put into these decisions. Each member of the SoloSprint Committee and the CCC is bound by the same rules and all the points that you have made so far have come up in the inhouse discussions.

Stephen has brought to our attention the fact that expired SFI harnesses can be upgraded at a very reasonable cost. Check out the location in an earlier portion of this thread.

Safety is our first priority and it should be yours as well. New harnesses for $200 - $400 or a lifetime of suffering if the expired ones don't function properly? Racing is inherently dangerous so protect yourself as well as you can. Before you modify your car you should think about the safety aspects first. Some of our SoloSprint cars are rivaling, if not surpassing, the speeds of properly configured race cars!

Here here! Well said....I guess thats why you are our President.

[Ytzman]

PM sent.

and replied.
Thank you.

[Ytzman]

Bram, it's best to Email or phone Joe directly. His contact info is on page 2 of the rulebook.

sorry, not seeing it anywhere in the 2009_solosprint_rulebook.pdf? I don't have a printed version is it in there?
anyways, could you PM me with his contact info?
Thanks,
Bram

[Chuck91GT]

sorry, not seeing it anywhere in the 2009_solosprint_rulebook.pdf? I don't have a printed version is it in there?
anyways, could you PM me with his contact info?
Thanks,
Bram

Bram, PM sent.

[Slowpoke]

Okay, I have 25 approved PIP schedules, and 44 competitors for event #1. Please get your CCDB submissions in!

Thanks.

[edobbie]

Using all forms of communication to get my PIP schedule approved. Resubmitted yesterday 99 Mustang GT SGT3 #174 PIP 82.4. Previously submitted in Apr but not approved. PM'd you yesterday.

Ted D

[evidence01]

Okay, I have 25 approved PIP schedules, and 44 competitors for event #1. Please get your CCDB submissions in!

Thanks.

im waiting for approval. submitted in april.

Jacek M

[Chris P]

Jacek, your schedule is showing as submitted in 2008. Please review it and submit again. You may need to make a small change to something so that it shows up as 'modified' with a 2009 date beside it. Also, the car is showing as a Mazdaspeed 6? Is this right or a 911 per your sig...?

[Chris P]

Using all forms of communication to get my PIP schedule approved. Resubmitted yesterday 99 Mustang GT SGT3 #174 PIP 82.4. Previously submitted in Apr but not approved. PM'd you yesterday.

Ted D

Same as above for Jacek. Your schedule shows as submitted June 2008. Try changing some comments text and resubmit. Or recall the submission and send it again so the date refreshes.

[evidence01]

Jacek, your schedule is showing as submitted in 2008. Please review it and submit again. You may need to make a small change to something so that it shows up as 'modified' with a 2009 date beside it. Also, the car is showing as a Mazdaspeed 6? Is this right or a 911 per your sig...?

its a speed6 yes.

911

GT3S class.

[evidence01]

re-submitted.

[edobbie]

Resubmitted 8:05 PM

[super seven]

Are walk ins still accepted? Im bringing my bone stock Nsx. What do I need to fill out? Wow things have really changed! Wish I still had my seven and then I would be in mod anyway. Life was so simple then!

[Cap'n Pete]

Yes, walk-ins are welcome! :) But please, come EARLY if you have to register your car and car class on the morning of. If you can do myself and the CCC a favour, and go onto the CCDB website: www.macrocosm.on.ca/ccdb and figure out your car's class in advance :cool:.

$140 at the door for the event.

[evidence01]

I'm leaving to Toronto from Ottawa this afternoon and if the PIP schedule is not approved by then i'm printing a non approved PIP. I wont have access to a printer. Hope its ok.

[G-ForceJunkie]

Thus, the "five year" aspect doesn't apply to SFI 16.1 or 16.5 certified belts. FIA homologated belts are five years.
That's not what our rule says.

Non-OE or non-DOT approved driver restraint systems shall be replaced every five (5) years from the date of manufacture OR on the expiry date as indicated by the manufacturer's label.

I have SFI 16.1 belts, and they indicate on them a date of manufacture, but no date of expiry.

Will a bulletin be issued, or will SFI belts be allowed up to 5 years old, or...?

[Maddog]

That's not what our rule says.



I have SFI 16.1 belts, and they indicate on them a date of manufacture, but no date of expiry.

Will a bulletin be issued, or will SFI belts be allowed up to 5 years old, or...?
Any answer to this yet?

[thgear]

Any answer to this yet?

soon

[Chuck91GT]

That's not what our rule says.



I have SFI 16.1 belts, and they indicate on them a date of manufacture, but no date of expiry.

Will a bulletin be issued, or will SFI belts be allowed up to 5 years old, or...?

Andy, the SFI 16.1 belts do not have an expiry date on them. The answer to your question can be found at the following website:

http://www.sfifoundation.com/

If you peruse the site you will find that the dates are not arbitrary, as some competitors have suggested, but rather are based on factual evidence. Their testing is very extensive.

[G-ForceJunkie]

Chuck, I think our rule wording should probably be changed to reflect that then.

[ADAM]

IMO ..ummm.... its a scam 100%

lets look at it this way...the manufacturers set up a group to over see when the products they manufacturer should be replaced (ie a system that ensures systematic future sales)... man who wouldnt like that set up?

the testing is OUTDOOR exposure to nylon 6-6..cars interiors are really not outdoor items

and they are using non UV stabilized 6-6 nylon? why is that? when they stabilize 6-6 it loses some of its tensile strength YES...however thier own charts show what happens over time with non stabilized 6-6 in stregth tests...

so the easy solution..UV stabilize the belts and they last forever..in a indoor car enviornment..

we used to mold cable ties with dupont nylon 6-6 with UV stabilizer added and they were very stable long term...and a bunch of other nylon parts as well..

its all a bull crap money grab

do you know what else in your cars are made from nylon 6-6... your AIR BAGS..

ohh no run for the hills...they could fail on you...better change them out every 2 years..

6-6 is a pretty common plastic and no one is changing parts out every 2 years..

the belt guys could make an easy and simple solution..sell a thin UV belt condom that covers the belts from any sun that hits it..or just UV stabilize it and dont worry about it anymore...

ever wonder why you car seatbelts dont have to be replaced every 2 years?

or look at it this way...a 2 inch 6-6 strap has a tensile strength of about 20,000lbs...you have 2 of them..so thats 40,000lbs tensile strength when new...2 years later you still have 8,000lbs tensile force to break(I am sure this is worst case scenario)..and you can see that the drop off on thier simplified scale is not linear...its an overkill product to restrain a human...

anyway rules are rules...and the world is pretty much run by insurance and lawyers anyway..so better to be safe then litigated :)

does everyone change out the straps they use to strap thier cars down every 2 years? that should be the bigger question of safety

[ADAM]

btw....the automotive standard for seat belt strength is only 6000lbs

so the racing harness even after it is "no good" as per SFI is already far exceeding the capabilities of a new OEM rated belt system

[Cap'n Pete]

Here's a question:

When's the last time that a racer was injured or killed because their belts failed? :confused: I don't mean failed due to improper use, I mean, failed, as in the belts broke. Has it happened? Is there documentation of it? If "yes", when? How often? How recently?

[ADAM]

I would wager never from a belt failure...

more likely a hardware failure..or it was not done up properly


even after 2 years you could still hang a whole car from just 1 of the 5 straps on a harness

[jonweir]

btw....the automotive standard for seat belt strength is only 6000lbs

so the racing harness even after it is "no good" as per SFI is already far exceeding the capabilities of a new OEM rated belt system


Comparing OE belt testing to harness testing is inappropriate since harnesses are designed to be mounted in cars with little consideration of 'crumple' zones to decrease impact deceleration.

M*V=F*T
Mass of the vehicle doesn't change, but velocity is higher on a racetrack. T is reduced as the crumple zone is reduced, so overall F increases.

Typical low speed road impact with barrier imparts 10-15g on the driver. 200lb driver gives 2000-3000lbs on the belt. Add a safety factor to that.... then consider speed increases V and decreases T.....

[Slowpoke]

or look at it this way...a 2 inch 6-6 strap has a tensile strength of about 20,000lbs...you have 2 of them..so thats 40,000lbs tensile strength when new...2 years later you still have 8,000lbs tensile force to break(I am sure this is worst case scenario)..and you can see that the drop off on thier simplified scale is not linear...its an overkill product to restrain a human...

Uhmm. No. Your numbers do not match real life testing by SFI. No I can't share the details, but I don't want anyone here thinking that's close to reality. Your estimates for 2" breaking strength are more than double that of 3" webbing with SFI test methods.

Sunlight is not the only type of outdoor exposure. Did you know that simply getting your belts wet can have almost the same effect as 3 months outdoor exposure?

Does anyone clean grease off theirs with soap or window cleaner? Hmmm? Do you know if that car interior spray cleaner from Canadian Tire is harmful to the breaking strength of nylon or polyester?

How about this... did you know that putting that metal shoulder strap adjuster on each belt FURTHER lowers the breaking strength by over 45%? If your adjuster is not perpendicular, you can lose 15% more than that?

So, take more than 50% off your estimate for 2" webbing. Then take more than 15% off that for dampness (e.g.: race or stock car with no window). Then take 45% more off that because you have shoulder strap tensioners. What are you left with?

Please, Adam, if you won't listen to experts, at least contact them to see their research so you're not spreading this manure to forum readers who might actually believe you. :mad: Please, stop.


anyway rules are rules...and the world is pretty much run by insurance and lawyers anyway..so better to be safe then litigated :)

That, is an unfortunate truth.


does everyone change out the straps they use to strap thier cars down every 2 years? that should be the bigger question of safety

I had a Reese one from Canadian Tire damaged from one haul. Did you know that a 1/8" (3mm) horizontal cut on the edge of a 3" harness belt or tie down reduces the breaking strength by over 25%?

[ADAM]

"Your estimates for 2" breaking strength are more than double that of 3" webbing with SFI test methods."

Did you know that manufacturers are there to make money? and are they using thier own internal testing or using outside labs..its a self imposed standard!!! they can say whatever they want to say

show me a report from a independant test lab like Ul or CSA..and why they also dont contruct the belts from polyester or with a UV stabilizer nylon 6-6 from these race belt manufacturers

post the info you got from them so we can see it for ourselves

[ADAM]

M*V=F*T
Mass of the vehicle doesn't change, but velocity is higher on a racetrack. T is reduced as the crumple zone is reduced, so overall F increases.


so are you saying that OEM car makers change thier belt design with the performance change of the car (ie the OEM seat belt in a VW bug is less strength than that of the OEM belt in a Porsche GT3) ...NO..why..cause there is a governemnt standard they must adhere to..

my point is SFI is a industry created self imposed standard....that to me seems to be a money grab, based on the fear of litigation.

IF NOT....

then why not make the belts UV stabilized..or make them of the same polyester that OEM belts are made from?

why would you go through the hassle of creating a system of dating a product with expiry..and huge potential for loss of strength as shown by thier very own "chart"

does this make any sense?

I would just design out the failure component in the design...

ah haa...however doing this ..would pretty much kill off thier business ...would it not....since OEM belt life does not expire....that would mean that race belts would only be bought ONCE...

If we could design multitudes plastic parts that would have a 20year + service life in outdoor environments in machines like telecom..or military or IP 67 rated plastic parts..sure as heck you can make a belt that does not magically expire in 2 years..with some self imposed no government regulated standard

[Do It Sidewayz]

dont contruct the belts from polyester or with a UV stabilizer nylon 6-6 from these race belt manufacturers




they do...

http://www.soloracer.com/gforcecamlock.html

http://www.racing.sabelt.com/index.php/eshop/info/on/Sabelt-Racing-Harnesses.html/cId/193/

http://www.schrothracing.com/main/Engineering

Race belts are used in a completely different environment.

For SFI belts, within the 2 year "life cycle". the Manufacture and SFI themselves needs to assume that a race car will be in some sort of incident, either large or small. All manufacturers recommend/require replacing the belts after a large crash. And the "hard" 2 year life cycle changes ensures that the belts do get replaced, regardless of end user honesty etc.

I believe the main difference between the SFI and FIA belts has been the Nylon vs Polyester Webbing.

The first link to the G-force belts.....those things are the cheapest belts you are going to find, they are FIA approved which are good for 5 years. For $149 USD per (you can get them for that shipped), i don't see what all the fuss is about. Using a brand new belt, with new adjusters...that actually still adjust is 100% worth it's weight in gold

[ADAM]

anyway...just for curiosity's sake I requested the actual 16.1 SFI test program and data from SFI

to see what they are doing..and the assumptions they made

If Steven has that data already please send me a copy..or whatever you do have..

[ADAM]

the point is....

are we as racers getting hosed or not....

this is a new cost associated with our series..it would be interesting to see if its a valid one..

(I know we will still have to follow the rules set up..and change the belts)


however..if you dont look into things and challenge them..we are just sheep..

In my previous job a big part was questioning standards and adhering to them..or even getting standards changed based on false assumptions..there is so much gobbly de goop bull crap standards that are imposed....that they dont even know why its the standard in the first place..

[Cap'n Pete]

the point is....

are we as racers getting hosed or not....

In my previous job a big part was questioning standards and adhering to them..or even getting standards changed based on false assumptions..there is so much gobbly de goop bull crap standards that are imposed....that they dont even know why its the standard in the first place..
Hence my question ... when's the last time a harness ACTUALLY FAILED on the race track? :rolleyes:

[craig]

1. SFI is an industry organization that issues standards; it is not a standards body like ISO, BSI, DIN, ASTM, ITU, IEC, etc., nor is it a standards tester like TuV, CSA, UL, etc.

That being said, you take what you can get.

2. One acquaintance of mine died at the Glen, and there was a broken old belt involved. That proves or disproves nothing. It is irrelevant how many people died, as the actual question becomes: What should reasonably be done to try and cover the asses of the volunteers who put on these events?

Like it or not, adhering to commonly-accepted applicable norms, a.k.a. appealing to authority - as a minimum - is one approach to that question.

That authority could be an organization like SFI; it could be organizations that do similar things. Even within CASC-OR, we go from: Ice Racing, which has no expiry; to Race division, which allows SFI and FIA for five years; to Solo2, which does not allow SFI harnesses at all (only FIA).

The differences implicitly reflect the personal risk the volunteers of the various disciplines are willing to take. Before folks throw stones, I suggest that they imagine sitting on the other side of the fence, and what risks they would take in that same position.

[ADAM]

Got the actual SFI foundation test parameters and company sign up forms in the mail from SFI

and for a whopping $150 you too can produce SFI rated restraint systems...


the specs are a joke...

the spec for the webbing plastic material...can be any Nylon or polyester....wow thats detailed...

and the tests are all tested too " shall be greater than or equal to the minimum values in table 3 "

ummm...that does not prove anything....there is NO destructive testing mode in this test series...so the arbitrary values they set out for the belts are just that...arbitrary...

they set out test load of 6300lbs for a 3 inch belt.....which common 3 inch belts of this nature have a tensile strength of 30,000lbs+

so instead of testing the belts to a failure mode (one reason may be there in house testing fixture is only rated to 11,500lbs) which will most likely be over 30,000lbs for a 3 inch nylon strap..then working back from that point of failure of what is required to restrain a human in a car impact...and then working back from that how much the material degrades over time...

they dont do that...most likely cause the test set ups they have cannot deal with the high loads created by destructive testing of these straps in thier in house fixtures.....

anyway I still think its a money grab..since it ensures a constant revenue stream for the belt makers

[Slowpoke]

ORF can become a member of SFI for $200 a year and then you'll have a place to voice your concerns. Surely your efforts to prolong belt use will benefit your customers and they'll cheerfully chip in to pay for your participation.

[ADAM]

here is the correspondance between me and SFI....it seems they are at odds with FIA, and they are taking the belt MFG's claims as to when they should be replaced.


Hi Adam,



Please see below for information on the 2-year service life for 16.1 seatbelts. Should you have any other questions, please feel free to contact our office anytime.



Thank you,



Suzanne



-----Original Message-----
From: Jennifer Faye [mailto:jfaye@sfifoundation.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 4:02 PM
To: 'Suzanne Allen'
Subject: RE: SFI specification 16.1



Hi Suzanne,



Please pass along the following information to Adam regarding the history of the 2-year service life:



The SFI Spec 16.1 for Driver Restraint Assemblies requires that the webbing be replaced every 2 years to maintain certification of a harness. The concern is the effect of sunlight and environmental exposure on the seatbelt webbing based on abundant scientific data. When Spec 16.1 was released in 1986 the committee that developed the spec was guided by input from webbing fiber manufacturers who informed the committee that prolonged exposure to sunlight and radiation from other sources causes a loss in breaking strength of the fibers. This position was presented by both DuPont and Celanese, at the time, major manufacturers of Nylon yarns used in webbing. In a DuPont report, different types of Nylon were exposed over a period of time and then tested for breaking strength (the amount of applied test load when failure of the webbing occurs). In only 12 months, the different types of Nylon retained between 20-40% of their original breaking strength values. By 24 months, only 10-20% of the original strength was retained.



Of course, not all race cars have daily exposure to sunlight as in these tests, but it is a possible worse case scenario. As a result, the SFI spec needed to give the sanctioning bodies some reasonable guide to seat belt life. The spec is therefore set at an average condition, but without this spec, who would make the decision as to the condition of a set of belts? This cannot be done visually. The facts are that the two year rule has been in place for over two decades and is used by over eighty sanctioning bodies around the world. The basis for the requirement was extensive testing by DuPont, Celanese, and confirmed by the US Army and has been validated many times over the years. The sanctioning bodies have experienced a dramatic reduction if not elimination of seat belt related problems.



The US Army testing referenced above was a 1993 study on Nylon webbing conducted by that entity. After prolonged outdoor exposure, the average breaking strength of Nylon webbing decreased from almost 3,500 lbs. to less than 500 lbs. in 24 months. This data confirmed the findings by DuPont and Celanese and further corroborated that the 2-year service life is reasonable.



The test loads applied to a harness in the current SFI Specs 16.1 and 16.5 is based on a 70g impact. That means a 50-percentile male who weighs 165 lbs. will put about 11,550lbs. of force on his harness system in a crash of a similar g-load. With all the above factors involved, to consider a longer service life for seat belts could place a driver at unnecessary risk.



In the past, SFI has requested from the FIA their reasoning or scientific support for a 5-year service life in the FIA harness standard, but they have never been able to provide such data.



All SFI Specs are periodically reviewed by their respective technical committees, with the next scheduled meeting for SFI Spec 16.1 being in December, 2009. That would be the appropriate forum to propose any changes to the spec, with any proposals being submitted to SFI in writing prior to the meeting, for presentation to the committee.



Thank you,





Jennifer Faye

Program Manager

jfaye@sfifoundation.com



SFI Foundation, Inc.

15708 Pomerado Rd., Ste. N208

Poway, CA 92064

USA



(858) 451-8868

(858) 451-9268 Fax

www.sfifoundation.com




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Suzanne Allen [mailto:sallen@sfifoundation.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:26 AM
To: Jennifer Faye
Subject: FW: SFI specification 16.1



Jen – See below questions on 16.1.

Thanks



-----Original Message-----
From: ADAM HUTCHINSON [mailto:tyoga@rogers.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:07 AM
To: Suzanne Allen
Subject: Re: SFI specification 16.1



Hi Suzanne,



What is the reason for the 2 year standard for replacing the belts?



Would it be possible to design a UV stabilized nylon/polyester belt that could meet your standards for 5+ years



Does SFI have a system in place to meet a longer time period simular or greater than FIA



What are the requirements to get a longer period of time before belt change is required?



Do you have a outdoor exposure test method in place for various periods of time?



Please advise

Thanks

Adam

[ADAM]

So I went back to them again...to see if they can shed some logical light...



Hi Suzanne,

Thank you for the more detailed information.

Can you ask your engineer why OEM seatbelts can maintain the government tensile standards with no expiry date on them?

and that is only a lap belt and 1 shoulder belt, vs 5 belts for a race harness

are the SFI standards not requiring any type of plastic UV stabilizer in them? why are the OEM belts allowed to be kept for the life of the car under government standards?

Trying to figure out why there is such a vast difference in what OEM standards are that are controlled by federal standards..and SFI and even FIA

Please advise

Thanks
Adam

[Slowpoke]

Can you ask your engineer why OEM seatbelts can maintain the government tensile standards with no expiry date on them? ... why are the OEM belts allowed to be kept for the life of the car under government standards?

I don't try to live life by holding myself to the lowest standards that I can find.

But thank you for continuing your argument with SFI.

[ADAM]

he he...no you just adopt standards cause they exist

[Doug P]

The way this is going pretty soon no one will be using SFI harnesses at all.

[Andoru]

I'd like to bring this discussion back from the dead....

Two(2) items that have been eating at me since this post started some time ago:

1) Haven't entered my new track beater in solo sprints yet because I'm still currently building it, but I purchased a 5 point harness last summer (with the hopes of tracking that year) and it has sat in the box since. Now with this new rule in solosprints, this new harness I have is going to be illegal when I enter the car next year?!

This seems rediculus. A harness that is date stamped only when I purchase it is illegal. What I don't understand is that aspect, its date stamped when I purchase it, so it could sit on the shelf for years (but thats ok?). The minute I leave the store it starts degrading, not a minute earlier.

2) My next rant is with cars running in the higher classes of solo sprints without any sort of roll over protection. Would it not make some sense since we are so concerned about belts (and safety) that once a car either breaks out of a certain class, or runs a certain time, roll over protection should be manditory? Drag strips enforce this!

Andrew.

[Cap'n Pete]

I'd like to bring this discussion back from the dead....

Two(2) items that have been eating at me since this post started some time ago:

1) Haven't entered my new track beater in solo sprints yet because I'm still currently building it, but I purchased a 5 point harness last summer (with the hopes of tracking that year) and it has sat in the box since. Now with this new rule in solosprints, this new harness I have is going to be illegal when I enter the car next year?!

This seems rediculus. A harness that is date stamped only when I purchase it is illegal. What I don't understand is that aspect, its date stamped when I purchase it, so it could sit on the shelf for years (but thats ok?). The minute I leave the store it starts degrading, not a minute earlier.

2) My next rant is with cars running in the higher classes of solo sprints without any sort of roll over protection. Would it not make some sense since we are so concerned about belts (and safety) that once a car either breaks out of a certain class, or runs a certain time, roll over protection should be manditory? Drag strips enforce this!

Andrew.
1) While I may agree, that a set of belts that appear "like new" (and may have NEVER been used) could/should arguably still be allowed, HOW ARE WE TO KNOW that they haven't sat out in the sun and been degraded by UV? I'm (sort of) in the same boat, where I have a set of belts that were only actually worn maybe ~5 times in ~4 years, but since they're well beyond the 2-year SFI rating, guess what ... they're done (as per the rules). The argument has been had and won (or lost?), so it's a done deal.

2) There has been discussion around mandating rollover protection above certain times/classes, but the jury is still out on that one. Cutting up a perfectly good, potentially BRAND NEW street car seems a shame, and would probably deter many people from participating in SoloSprint, and turn them towards other open lapping days instead, if we tried to mandate that rule. Just look at some of the factory-built performers these days ... cars with over 500 HP ... that can out-perform "real race cars" ... and all that's required are the factory 3-point seat-belts ;).

Don't kid yourself ... these topics have been discussed. What direction would people like to see SoloSprint take? Do you think we should base the requirement for rollover protection on the SPEED a car is capable of on the track? (ie: 200+ km/h ?) or on the TIME potential? (based more on cornering speed, not just straight-line speed). Or do you base it on the car CLASS? (ie: SGT3? SGT1? Prepared?) ... where do we draw the line?

I know that drag racing (NHRA / IHRA) draw lines in the sand at 13.99, then 11.99 (or 11.49) and 9.99. How do we "quantify" a car's performance/potential on the road course? What if a ~500 HP car "only" does a 1:45 at MIR? Should it require rollover protection? What about a ~300 HP car that goes 1:35? What if we never see these cars at MIR, but they show up to the DDT? Do we still expect rollover protection there? Based on what HP/speed/time?

Unfortunately, it's harder to draw lines in the sand in our sport vs. drag racing, but I know where you're coming from :cool:.

[ADAM]

100% very good points Andrew

and the current rules make no sense what so ever safety wise

[thgear]

1) Haven't entered my new track beater in solo sprints yet because I'm still currently building it, but I purchased a 5 point harness last summer (with the hopes of tracking that year) and it has sat in the box since. Now with this new rule in solosprints, this new harness I have is going to be illegal when I enter the car next year?!

we are simply enforcing the SFI and FIA standards. It is a liability issue. You're free to bankroll our insurance in the event of a grieving family member and a sneaky lawyer suing for millions of dollars.

Our sport sees speeds that in some cases exceed those of fully built race cars. As such, the severity of a possible accident could be catastrophic. This is a grassroots, unincorporated entity, if shit hits the fan, YOU wont be feeling it, but the people organizing all the events will.

as far fetched as it may sound, the last thing we want is to go to jail or lose everything we had because of a death resulting from a failed and expired belt.



2) My next rant is with cars running in the higher classes of solo sprints without any sort of roll over protection. Would it not make some sense since we are so concerned about belts (and safety) that once a car either breaks out of a certain class, or runs a certain time, roll over protection should be manditory? Drag strips enforce this!

Andrew.

A Porsche 911 Turbo is much safer without a rollcage than an EF Honda Civic modified up to the same performance level as said Porsche

but keep in mind that we are aware of this disparity. One way to keep speeds down is to simply exclude all high performance cars, but that would defeat the purpose of our sport.

the street tire rule has been partially made to slow competitors down while remaining competitive.

Show me a Ferrari owner that is going to cut his car to put a cage in for a few races in a season?


We are trying to be as free as we can in our rules, where are you in on this?

in point A, you are angry about us enforcing existing rules, but in point B you are angry at us for not enforcing the rules enough?

so what is it that you want us to do/act?

[ADAM]

we could have a spec LADA series

a whole fleet of them

[thgear]

we could have a spec LADA series

a whole fleet of them

you wanna bank us, i'll organize it?

[ADAM]

as long as we can run "cosacks" as well

[thgear]

a cosack is a russian samurai.. why would want to.. run one... :eek:

[ADAM]

what were those little 4x4's called? thats the one I am talking about

[Cap'n Pete]

A Lada Niva? :confused: Like a Chevette on roids! :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lada_Niva

[thgear]

it has a lever inside that locks all 4 wheels together

its nuts! haha 1.6L making 75hp, GO GO GO!

[ADAM]

man... they make the Niva sound great on wiki

[thgear]

http://www.lada-auto.ru/cgi-bin/models.pl?model_id=5086&branch=tth

MSRP: $9200 USD

thats brand spanking new, fuel injected and everything

tons of aftermarket parts

...

:)

[Andoru]

I did not realize that the belt issue was brought forth by insurance.
Funny how stock seat belts are ok for the life of a car but the minute racing is slapped on it its not.

With regards to a Porsche being safer than a civic, I don't know if that can be quantify that. Although civics are just a box with four wheels..I kid :)

The rollover protection issue is a hard one to rule on I would agree, some cars out of the box are already capable of substantial speeds and quick lap times. But for argument sake, I've seen cars (not at solosprint events) that are completely gutted, door crash bars removed, bumper supports removed and all they have is a bucket seat with a stock seat belt. With the potential for putting down quick lap times. Its cars like this that raise my issue with no rollover protection enforcement.

Adam, bring on the Lada's! Can we fit an LS1 in it?

Andrew.

[ADAM]

exactly....

we worry about the bar padding on 6 point roll caged cars...but have OEM supercars with no protection at all running around..

kinda does not make any sense


yes liability will be the downfall of everything...its a sad litigious state