Quebec solo

[Tony Kloosterma]

Joe T, Pete, Kerry, Peter, Andrew and I made the trip out to Blainville for the Quebec solo championship event.

Joe and his wife left early saturday to meet at his parents.
the balance of us except Andrew left Toroto at 4:00. Andrew decided to come last minute and left at 11:00pm (yes he's crazy)
We all met up in Montreal at Alf's place and went to crescent street for some food. The walk to crescent street was very EYE OPENING.............I think I just may move to Quebec for the sights.............
We went to Dundees bar and had a few pitchers of beer and some grub.
It was 1:15 when we got to Alfs place and sacked out. The alarm went off at 5:45 ...which was way too early. We all headed out to Blainville and met up with Andrew at Tim Hortons.....then off to TMG
The TMG test facility is INCREDIBLE.... it is an amzing spot, a 4 km oval, crash test facility, a 1 km by 1km skid pad,,,,,,,security like theres no tomorrow....amazing place...
We registered and checked our classes with the organizers.
They took us to the skid pad in goups of 10, (when you are in there, you are there till day end) The parking area was huge...
128 entries and these quebecuois are serious about thier sport, pyrometers, air pigs the whole 9 yards...

It took about 15 minutes to walk the course. I would estimate it to be 3/4 mile in length with a top speed in 2 spots in access of 110 kph (based on my bouncing off the rev limiter in second)

we were told we would get 4 runs which suited me fine and that they ran thier cars in groups. each group ran 2 runs back to back and then marshalled, and then we repeated the process. There seemed to be an access of marshalls at every post but at least you were in one spot and you did have some down time between groups to relax and have lunch.
The course was wide open. take bracebridge, widen it 5 feet, make all the cornors 50% larger, increase the straights 500%
and the best thing of all .......NO STOP BOX>>>>>>>>>just a deacceleration area...........
Times were in the 50 second range until our group was up.
Up to this time the fastest time was a high 49 second run.
I cranked off a 48.6 on my first run and Pete managed a 49.1.
Then the shit started.

Seems that some competitors took exception to our times and decided that they wanted to protest our cars. We had 4 individuals come up and mention this. When the times were posted, a cone mysteriaously appeared beside my time, I know I was close to one, but was told it was still in the box.....
Anyways, it appears that a blow off valave automatically puts you in one of thier mod classes. We didn't know that and suggested to the organizer that they just change Petes class, although the organizer was receptive it seemed that there was competitors that wanted us disqualified totally.........We then suggested that they just remove our times altogther as I didn't drive 800 kms to get into a pissing contest over a class.....we just came to have fun and enjoy the track.

That put a bit of a damper on things but all in all we had a good time.

The drive back to London was long...(750 km) we stopped in Kingston for dinner and made it home by 300am.

This is an event you must come out to next year.

I know next year I will know thier rule book inside and out and there will be no issue of legal or not...... We'll just go kick thier azz.......

Tony

[andrew1984]

great roadtrip.


cant wait for the next! :cool:

p.s- pete, send me those tim hortons pix!



here are pix from the event

http://community.webshots.com/user/dieselshark/2

[Alf]

I'm glad that I could keep my tire under my car... There was a rumour running around that if it would meet expectation I would loose my wheels :rolleyes: So I did keep them!! I'm really please with your comment about that race. It was probably the best solo2 track I have been. Very open course, very nice... Hope to see everyone again next time.

[Taylor]

Blow off valve puts you in Mod?!? What rules are they using?

Sounds like BS to me. An aftermarket BOV is really just part of a turbocharging system you MAY need once you reach a certain level of boost because stock ones may not be able to handle the new boost. It really doesn't net any performance gain, other than your car is allowed to function properly with one. :) I can see a Boost Controller maybe putting you up, but a BOV? Sounds fishy to me.

So was Matt Larouse(sp?) the fastest guy there? (Black E30 BMW)

Sounds like a CNAC/CEAC style event. Would have liked to have gone but had other comittments.

[andrew1984]

eh, if memory serves... we crushed him.

[JoeT]

To add to Tony's comments, the sights at the track equaled the sights on Crescent street. We were in awe on the quality of women drivers ( ;) ) at the track. There was no shortage of talent.

Andrew's tongue is still dragging behind his bug.

The SCCA style of track layout was amazing. It was fast, and flowing, at first it looked like a HP type of track, but in reality it was quite an equalizer for handling vs HP.

Here's an excerpt from an email sent to me by CADL organizers. Some items have been censored for this board.


Hi Joe,

Thank you very much for your comments. We appreciate your feedback.

Too bad we weren't able to discuss around a good cold beer after the event. We understand that you hit the road early after the end of the event in order to get home.

The track was targeted to be very similar to a SCCA National event. Some reasons for this track layout is that we had the room for it, was interesting to try it out and it was to help prepare some of our members that will participate in SCCA National next week in Topeka, Kansas. Like you mentioned we found it interesting on speed and technical aspect.

Again thank you for pointing out good aspects of the day, it is very welcome.

We usually have a very good friendship among competitors, however the Aug 31st event seem to be a bit more oriented toward competition and less friendshipness than usual.

On behalf on CADL, we do apologize for not pointing out this classification issue in our previous communications or at the registration table.

To tell the truth we like fierce competition, not to say love it. Good competitors like you guys are always welcome at our events and we hope that this matter didn't affect deeply your interest in competing with us. You driving skills are among the top we saw this year and hope to see you again in one of our events.

Regarding the Bake Sale, we would appreciate a lot your description of the Bake Sale. We have to produce a report regarding that Bake Sale and your inputs will be important.

On a different note, we have a forum were we discuss about everything regarding our competitions, events, comments, etc.. and I would like to post this email that you sent us on it. If you have any objection please let me know.

Best regards,

Eric St-Onge
CADL




----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe T" <jtrin@hotmail.com>
To: <info@cadl.qc.ca>
Cc: <plejbjuk@hotmail.com>; <ruimprzd@rogers.com>
Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 8:59 AM
Subject: Re: Interested in Participating in your Blainville event


Thank you for putting together a first class event. Unfortunately, we could not stay until the very end, some of us had to make a long road trip back to Toronto and London.

We were impressed with the size of the facilities, the layout of the track, and the organization level of the event. It was first class all the way. The track flowed like a typical SCCA type of layout, and provided a good "equalizer" balance of speed and technicality.

Highlights of the day:
Number of Competitors
Quality of Competitors
Professionalism of the Organizers
Track Layout
Speed of the Track
Barbecue
Portable Toilets (Phew)

Lows of the day:
Mulitple Protests from competitors: We didn't know the rules and
regulations, and appologize for any miscommunications, we look for direction from the organizers with regards to local classifications. We're not part of the series, and we came out just to enjoy friendly competition, please feel free to remove our results from your Series Registered results.

Bake Sale: This is the first Bake Sale I've seen in 18 years of racing. We all wish the best for that cook. I personally helped put the dough back to it's tray, since I was stationed at that booth.

If you want details of the Bake Sale and the how it happened, please do not hesitate to contact me. It's very clear what happened.

Sent on behalf of the drivers from the SPDA..

Sincerely
Joe Trinidad
Subaru Legacy GT Turbo
Co-Founder Subaru Performance Drivers Association
http://www.spda-online.ca


BTW: Censorship Sucks!!!

Results from the event: http://www.cadl.qc.ca/Results/2003/2003-6.PDF

[Logan]

Originally posted by Taylor
What rules are they using?
Sounds like the "We can't let Ontario beat us" rules.

Ontario: The fastest province in Canada!! haha

[Alf]

Taylor, the rules used to classified car are the one used by SCCA. Solo ontario wasn't suppose to move to that next year?

[AcidGord]

Is anyone else hungry after reading Joe's post? :)

[Logan]

Bake Sale... Interesting..............
Surprised they would have such an entrepreneurial person at an event like this.

[Marsh]

Guys don't forget that SCCA rules don't use prep-points. It's a strictly allowed-vs-illegal mods. No matter how little you have done to the car one illegal part bumps you to whatever class is necessary to allow that part.

I personally think this is one of the only things CASC-OR solo-2 rules has right. I like the fact that there is a little flexibillity. It makes it much more inviting to new people.

[Alf]

I have to agrea with you on this. SCCA rules are a bit rude on this.

[Alf]

I'm just looking at the result. I like this, they have a top 10 cone killer section. It's to funny. Someone got 9 cones!!! Can someone do better?

[MiG-29 Foxbat]

Originally posted by Taylor
Blow off valve puts you in Mod?!? What rules are they using?

Sounds like BS to me. An aftermarket BOV is really just part of a turbocharging system you MAY need once you reach a certain level of boost because stock ones may not be able to handle the new boost. It really doesn't net any performance gain, other than your car is allowed to function properly with one. :) I can see a Boost Controller maybe putting you up, but a BOV? Sounds fishy to me.


So ya mean to say I should have gotten a second opinion from another MSOC organizer about my BOV before buying sway bars to be competitive in my new class, C-MOD??!!!!:mad:

I was told that if I replaced my broken BOV with an aftermarket one, that would put me in C-Mod. So I went ahead and got the sway bars and brakes and tyres to try to be competitive.

[Taylor]

Mod in PITL isn't the same as MOD in CNAC/SCCA. Mod in SCCA is pretty serious. "Two steps up". MOD in PITL is a non stock C Car (or engine swapped A/B) it's only "One step up".

Hrm... maybe PITL should change it's class designations, it'd be less confusing. You don't know how many times I've seen "BSS" on registration forms at PITL.

Not my call.

[Taylor]

BTW, VERY VERY few cars (if any) come stock with a Blow Off Valve. OE ones are By Pass Valves, which route excess air back into the AFM. Some people insist on calling them BOVs, but by definintion, they're not.

Going to a BOV, vents those gases to the atmosphere and is supposed to help keep things spooled up by having a stiffer spring therefore quicker to shut once you're back on the throttle (or something like that). Though I honestly didn't see any benefit from mine other than the (then neat) sound (now annoying) it made. Now if I was pushing 30PSI then it would have a use.

Taking a leak before your run will probably net you a greater gain.

So it's either my ignorance of the turbocharging system or the ignorance of the rules makers that slap points down for a BOV. I don't see it doing anything different than ones right foot. In fact in many cars, it should cause a rich condition because the air discharged was expected to go back through the intake manifold, so more fuel is dumped in to match it, but that air isn't there. I suspect in the ones where it doesn't the air is put in prior to the meter.

I think the rule is basically that anything that modifies the turbocharger boost pressure is considerd x points or x class. The BOV would be the weakest mod IMO and you'd really much rather run a boost controller or water injection kit, or buy a new intercooler. BOV's just make noise unless you already have a MOD car. Then they might actually make noticable power.

Look at it this way, I seriously doubt any BOV in a stock car could possibly net more than an intake in a stock car, which is free in PITL stock classes.

[J.C.]

I agree with what you said Taylor, and this ignorance is what put the Beetle originally into BSS and now into such a high class in Quebec. Another thing I noticed is the car seems to be running rich. Time to put the original valve back on and see if horsepower actually improves. :rolleyes:

[TFGR]

Originally posted by J.C.
I agree with what you said Taylor, and this ignorance is what put the Beetle originally into BSS and now into such a high class in Quebec. Another thing I noticed is the car seems to be running rich. Time to put the original valve back on and see if horsepower actually improves. :rolleyes:

I don't think Andrew is running a BOV. He has a diverter valve. The DV diverts air back into the intake pipe as all air is metered. If the ECU doesn't see the air coming back into the intake stream after its diverted, it gets confused and throws codes. The DV is there to divert the air which is not controlled, back into the intake when you let off the gas so there is not Too much air.
The event peeps should have known that most VW's can't run BOV's (vent to the atmosphere) without flucking up the ECU.
It still sounds like a BOV cuz its vented into a hollow tube and thats the sound it makes, but they should have known!

SOUNDS MORE LIKE THEY REALLY DIDN'T WANT TO GET SPANKED BY A 19 YEAR OLD IN A GIRLY BEATLE CAR! :mad:
Jerks!:mad:

[msix]

I have seen some fast Subarus at this event on Sunday, (Joe's... wow) whatever their classification, your posted times are very impressive.

I have to come down to one of your events some day and see if I can kick some Subies ass there too.......hehehe ...Alf you are starting to fall behind...:p

Klaus
BMW 325 Flitzer

[Alf]

I need a set of R to follow now. If they would have a 2% bonus I would of kik everyone ass in P2. The street tire can't make apend.

Alf

[MiG-29 Foxbat]

Originally posted by TFGR
SOUNDS MORE LIKE THEY REALLY DIDN'T WANT TO GET SPANKED BY A 19 YEAR OLD IN A GIRLY BEATLE CAR! :mad:
Jerks!:mad:

Wow that puts a lot into perspective! I think Andrew started autocrossing at TLMC the same year as me, but he just took off.

For anyone thinking the Beetle is overpowered or in the wrong class, just pay your money to enter the TLMC shootout at the end of the year and you can compete directly against Andrew in the exact same car--see if he doesn't spank you there too!

That kid's just got a whole lot of talent in terms of driving and car setup.

[andrew1984]

Originally posted by MiG-29 Foxbat
Wow that puts a lot into perspective! I think Andrew started autocrossing at TLMC the same year as me, but he just took off.

For anyone thinking the Beetle is overpowered or in the wrong class, just pay your money to enter the TLMC shootout at the end of the year and you can compete directly against Andrew in the exact same car--see if he doesn't spank you there too!

That kid's just got a whole lot of talent in terms of driving and car setup.



wow.... thanks.




p.s- the cheques in the mail :D

[msix]

I need a set of R to follow now. If they would have a 2% bonus I would of kik everyone ass in P2. The street tire can't make apend.

come on now Alf, you know that the 2% tire bonus was removed because of tires like the Azenis Falken that are JUST like a R-tire but for some reason are rated for street tires.

Don't get me wrong, your raw time is always great, but you are also lucky that at the end of the day you also get your bonus....for this year at least, and I guess ONLY in Ottawa.

In comparing real time differences I am only looking at the raw time. Tire bonus and PAX is just a mathematical isue, not real driving.

Klaus
325 Flitzer

[roooo]

tires like the Azenis Falken that are JUST like a R-tire


Well, that's the first time I've heard that!
I think several hundred SCCA competitors will disagree with you on that one. hehe

[ice/solo racer]

As a guy that won the class last year on azenis-was barely winning events,got beat by B1 once,I get pissy when told the azenis are a cheater or r-tire equal.
As the same guy that repeated the class win this year in the same car(some relatively minor improvements)only this time on khumo's in the same size as the azenis I can say with total certainly that the azenis are a great all around tire-but they are NOT an r-compound.
I didn't just sneak out the wins this year,I was as surprised as everyone else just how quick myself in the same car was.Being less than 1/2 second of FTD(some events were alot closer than that)at most events in a BSS car with stock power is a big deal in my mind.
The single biggest improvement I made over the winter was ordering TRUE r-compounds.The difference in testing is more like 8% slower than r-tires so grumbling about someone getting a 2% bonus is kinda sour given the facts.
Your sorta right as the tire bonus IS a mathimatical issue-its just the the formula isn't representative off the true difference,PAX is just a whole other animal.

[msix]

Well, and how many times have you heard or read this advise, when someone is looking for choices on tires.

"Get some Azenis, they are the cheapest and closest to R-Compound tires and you still get your tire bonus"

In most areas this is not aplicable anymore anyways, and I guess by next year there wont be a tire bonus anywhere. The way I had understood the reasoning for this is because of Street tires performance comming close to R-Compound. :confused:

Klaus
325 Flitzer

[MitS]

Originally posted by Taylor

So it's either my ignorance of the turbocharging system or the ignorance of the rules makers that slap points down for a BOV. I don't see it doing anything different than ones right foot. In fact in many cars, it should cause a rich condition because the air discharged was expected to go back through the intake manifold, so more fuel is dumped in to match it, but that air isn't there. I suspect in the ones where it doesn't the air is put in prior to the meter.

I think the rule is basically that anything that modifies the turbocharger boost pressure is considerd x points or x class. The BOV would be the weakest mod IMO and you'd really much rather run a boost controller or water injection kit, or buy a new intercooler. BOV's just make noise unless you already have a MOD car. Then they might actually make noticable power.

Look at it this way, I seriously doubt any BOV in a stock car could possibly net more than an intake in a stock car, which is free in PITL stock classes.

I agree completely. IMO a BOV is more likely to retard perfomance in a car set to run with a closed system (1.8T's). The real performance enhancers are items like chips and boost controllers. The unfortunate part is that SCCA rules make you pay an unfair price for said items. Raising boost puts you in a class that would be very difficult to compete in. Kind of silly really when an 02 1.8T already comes with the boost screwed up. If only I had waited a year I could have had that power and ate my cake too.

[msix]

I am not saying someone using Azenis is cheating! No way!!

I have a very high respect of someone who is always posting lap times within a second or so of FTD and that on Azenis.

I am only responding to the comment "if I would get a 2% bonus I would kick everyone's ass....

I believe this is purley mathematical.
This is something for the guys with the computer to figure out at the end of the day.

Hey, I started the season on Yokos ES100 and I was very happy to come in second in ASP at the end of the day after all the calculations were done. Then I switched to RA-1, and I must say I LOVE it. Now there is no more dreaming involved, the time I drive is as fast as I can go, period. No more.. hmmmm...if I would have a better tire, then I could have been.........



Klaus
325 Flitzer

[TFGR]

Originally posted by MiG-29 Foxbat
Wow that puts a lot into perspective! I think Andrew started autocrossing at TLMC the same year as me, but he just took off.

For anyone thinking the Beetle is overpowered or in the wrong class, just pay your money to enter the TLMC shootout at the end of the year and you can compete directly against Andrew in the exact same car--see if he doesn't spank you there too!

That kid's just got a whole lot of talent in terms of driving and car setup.

Thats exactly right, he has good car control! Although I won the TLMC shootout last year and layed a little spank on the boy. (Right turns a little tough eh Andrew.....;) )
I just wish he would come out to the track a little more often!
:mad:

[andrew1984]

Originally posted by TFGR
Thats exactly right, he has good car control! Although I won the TLMC shootout last year and layed a little spank on the boy. (Right turns a little tough eh Andrew.....;) )
I just wish he would come out to the track a little more often!
:mad:



cmon! i forgot to turn... :D

[Alf]

Ok, let me get in on that tire discustion since I'm the guys who kinda started that :rolleyes: The Azinis is not a R-coumpound and far from it. On a dirty track and wet or really cold (10 C outside no sun), YES they can beat a R in a raw time. But as the temperature goes up and the track clean itself, the Azinis can't follow anymore. To give you a idea of the different as the day get really hot like July stuff, there is a much difference between a hoosier and an azinis that you could get between an azinis and a regular canadien tire scrap. Personaly, I find that azinis and heat don't go togetter properly like you would get from a R.

Alf

[TFGR]

Originally posted by MitS
I agree completely. IMO a BOV is more likely to retard perfomance in a car set to run with a closed system (1.8T's). The real performance enhancers are items like chips and boost controllers. The unfortunate part is that SCCA rules make you pay an unfair price for said items. Raising boost puts you in a class that would be very difficult to compete in. Kind of silly really when an 02 1.8T already comes with the boost screwed up. If only I had waited a year I could have had that power and ate my cake too.

Your right Brad! Its better to run stock in SCCA! I'll be running with you guys again. I couldn't find any overboost on the turbo, so my chip is back in! I'll give you and Andrew a run for your money!:D

[MitS]

Originally posted by TFGR
Your right Brad! Its better to run stock in SCCA! I'll be running with you guys again. I couldn't find any overboost on the turbo, so my chip is back in! I'll give you and Andrew a run for your money!:D

Glad you'll be out again. September is going to be a good month.

The CNAC rules are starting to worry me a bit. They *appear* to take the same stand on our chips as the SCCA does which means we'd be in a modified class. Maybe I'm misreading the rules but that is a harsh blow considering most of the power gained from the chip should have been included in the factory programming. It's kind of mental to put the 2001 150hp and 2002up180hp 1.8T's in the same base class. Same car. Same engine. Same everything except a few lines of code in the ECU that magically gives the 02up a 30hp advantage.

[andrew1984]

Originally posted by MitS
Glad you'll be out again. September is going to be a good month.

The CNAC rules are starting to worry me a bit. They *appear* to take the same stand on our chips as the SCCA does which means we'd be in a modified class. Maybe I'm misreading the rules but that is a harsh blow considering most of the power gained from the chip should have been included in the factory programming. It's kind of mental to put the 2001 150hp and 2002up180hp 1.8T's in the same base class. Same car. Same engine. Same everything except a few lines of code in the ECU that magically gives the 02up a 30hp advantage.


yeah, well at least the golf/jetta comes in the 180hp form :rolleyes:

:p

[MitS]

I can't figure out why they don't turn the boost up to 12PSI in the newer Beetles like they did in the rest of the line.

[spoonie]

at least you have a turbo to play with. i got a slow ass heavy engine in the front. 12 valves of pure lame ancient technology, baby!

now i just have to learn how to drive it

~spoonie

[Gord]

RE: the Azenis and whole 2% bonus in the rules thing...

I have to agree with Klaus on this; the Azenis *IS* an R-tire. A low-end R, but and R none the less.

Why? Well, it is officially sold and marketed as an R on the Pacific rim (Japan, Australia, etc.). The 200 treadwear rating is a joke and everyone knows it. It's construction is that of an R -- stiff sidewalls, huge treadblocks, soft rubber, (lots of compramise; noise, wet performance) etc.

It's basically a step below an A032R-HC. It's also interesting to note that it has equivalent (or better) performance than the best (true) street tire on the market (BFG KD). The KD is definitely a street tire (although pretty extreme) with it's soft sidewalls, quiet ride, decent rain performance, etc.

So the bigger question, does the Azenis take a 1 point mod under CNAC rules like an R? My bet is no.

-Gord

[J.C.]

I disagree the Azenis are not the best street tire, they are the best street tire for the money but not when budgets become unlimited. That does not make them an R especially when things get hot. I really don't see how anyone can say they are an R unless they have never driven on Azenis and a true are in warm weather.

[ice/solo racer]

Sorry Gord but the GRM test doesn't really back up your comments on the azenis as a r-tire.
Like I've always said the azenis are the best performance per dollar I think that is out there.
The GRM test results go like this
mean of middle 3 fastest
Azenis- g-force azenis g-force
danny 41.77 41.26 41.67 41.01
per 41.79 41.66 41.40 41.57

weight BFG's azenis
21.5lbs 23lbs
R-TIRE COMPARISION (just fastest)
ecsta toyo hoosier victoracer
danny 39.45 39.47 39.17 39.29
per 39.30 39.92 39.18 39.43

weight 19.5 21 18.5 19.5

Its pretty clear to me that if your giving up nearly 2 seconds on a 40 second course on azenis to even the slowest of the r-tires tested that they don't warrant the r-tire classafication.
I think a street tire class as the scca started makes sense,than ther're isn't any second guessing the raw time comparisions between r-tires and the street tires people think our r-tires.

[msix]

I am too new to this scene to give a real valid opinion.
I am just expressing what I have seen, heard and read over the past couple of years, and I can say for sure that I have run across this debate many times over.

I guess I have opened this can of worms again, like so many others before, and there wont be an answer to this.

There ae the Drivers one side who are driving or have been driving the Azenis, and who insist that these are a real poor tire compare to the R-Compound tires, and in reality the only reason they bought them was because they beat every street tire by a long shot and in some conditions are equal to real R-tires and still get a 2% (plus they are cheap)

Then there is the other side, either the racer on Street tires or the racer on R-tires, that feel something is not quite right, because they either have no chance on Streets in the same class, or the one on R-itres is loosing out because of the tire bonus of an Azenis driver.

In my opinion the Azenis compare to Street tires the same way as the Hooziers are to Toyo or Yokos.

So I guess next year we are done with this debate, because there wont be a tire bonus, right??

In the end, any driver on Azenis placing in the top 10 on raw time only is one hell of a good driver.

End of story.

Klaus
325 Flitzer

[J.C.]

We already did away with the street tire bonus. You must be looking at our last years rule book.

[roooo]

You northern guys must be smoking some good drugs to have those kind of opinions on tires. Ever tried reading the SCCA forums or GRM tire tests?

[ice/solo racer]

Easy now ROOO,remember where I live!!

BTW some of the locals have been known to do more than their share of good s**t!;)

Thanks Klaus,I had a good year last year on the azenis winning the class at the regional level and even winning a few events on raw times.The only event I lost was in Ottawa when I tried r-tires!(driver error mostly).I wish the GRM test had come out sooner as my wife also races(does damn well I might add)and is my official tire warmer-too bad the test pointed out the fact that the azenis grip goes down when hot!!(remember how stinking hot race weekends were last year)

[Gord]

Roooo, what northern guys are you refering to? I do read this stuff quite a bit, and in fact have a few issues of GRM with tire tests in front of me right now. :)

Tom, I don't disagree with you that the Azenis is slower than other R compound tires as it is. However, I don't think time alone can be used to qualify a tire. Look at the A032R-HC; it's a good bit off the pace of the Toyo and the RA-1 is considered an average to slow R.

Conversely, look at it this way. If Toyo or Yoko decide they want to have the new hot tire in STS and slap a 200 treadwear rating on the RA-1 or A032R-HC, does that then make them a street tire? 'Cause either of these tires will last just as long as an Azenis on the street and offer the exact same (poor) street characteristics.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, chances are it's a duck. It may be a smaller duck, but a duck none the less.

And they even backup what I am saying in the GRM test (re: the Azenis having characteristic like an R):

"... the first run was eye opening ... as this was the first street tire that allowed the driver to run over the apex cone if so desired - all the others washed out."

And on the KD:

"... found the tire to have the grip of the Azenis, but not the turn-in response; it feels like has softer sidewalls - almost mushy in comparison."

There is also the other characteristics of not very good in the wet, noisy, harsh ride, etc that are all R characteristics and that were not found in the KD (or other similar high performance tires).

Then look at the sizes. How many tires like the KD's, Pilots, S0-3, etc are available in 14"? None. Now how about R's? Most.

And the drop in grip after they heat up. Most (if not all) R's will do this as well. Hoosiers are especially prone to this, and I have noticed it in the Toyo as well.

And then there is price. R's are cheaper than high performance streets (generally) and offer much better performance. Why? The tires are built with compromises such as life, noise, wet performance, tracking, road hazard warranty, etc. The Azenis again checks in closer to an R than a street tire.

Then there is the whole sold/classed as an R in other parts of the world. Like I said, if one of the current R maker re-badges one of their R's as a street tire, does it really make it a street tire?

You have to look at the tire perfromance levels as a spectrum from high to low, and with some overlap. The Azenis just happens to be on the low end of the R scale and high end of the street tire. Kind of like the 32R's but a step below.

-Gord

[roooo]

hehe :D

Well now there is talk of different testing for r-compound tires and a few brands doing redesign in the next year or so. So the current heirarchy could possibly be switched around a bit.

Treadwear rating is a really dumb way to classify street vs. r I think since it is relative to each manufacturer's rating. But I suppose no one had a better way to do it at the time and this whole "streets that are almost an r-compound" didn't start to be an issue until very recently.

Then again, I suppose that is why there was an exclusion list for the street tire bonus last year.

And no one's mentioned the Kumho MX yet?

[Gord]

Hey Roooo, what are you hearing about redesigns? I know there are a few new players coming into the fray, but it sounds like they are mid to back pack runners (about the Toyo level or so).

The treadwear thing seems to be the simplest to do, but does have some big flaws when comparing one manufacturer to the next. Heck, my RS-A's are rated at 280 IIRC and are like hockey pucks! :o

From TireRack testing, the MX seems to be below the KD and similar to the Pilot and other street tires. It's also only available in bigger sizes, but does seem to be a pretty good street tire (from what I am hearing).

-Gord

[Alf]

Then if a Azinis is a R... Can I take a hoosier or a toyo do 10 solo 2 event and 8-10K km with it? Not sure you'll make it between Ottawa and Toronto...

[roooo]

I noticed yesterday a thread on sccaforums.com about changes to the DOT's tire testing process for r-compounds. Something about it becoming more rigorous and leading to possible redesigns of some of the current r-compounds.

http://www.sccaforums.com/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000513.html

[Gord]

Originally posted by Alf
Then if a Azinis is a R... Can I take a hoosier or a toyo do 10 solo 2 event and 8-10K km with it? Not sure you'll make it between Ottawa and Toronto...

Not with a Hoosier, but certainly with Toyo's or Yok's you can. It's not uncommon to get 20k km plus a few solo events/track days out of a set of Toyo's. 10k km's on the street and a summer of solo 2 is easy with Toyo's. They'd probably have enough left for some events (maybe a lot even) the next year too.

And that's not easy driving either, cause you just can't help but drive hard with the R's on. Sort of I can therefore I will. :)

My last (new) set of Toyo's are on their 5th year, did 10 events a year plus maybe a couple thou km's on the street, and Guy is currently running them on his Golf.

Thanks for the link roooo.

-Gord

[ice/solo racer]

As far as wear goes there is no comparison between the azenis and the victoracers I'm using this year.Same car,same size on the same rim and the azenis looked as new at the end of last season.
I've done about the same #events with 2 drivers and nothing but solo 2 and the khumo's are going to be lucky to get thru the shootout without cording I think(not sure as I'm new to r-tires).
Does the treadwear rating seem out of line?not by my tire wear it doesn't.

One more thing I noticed when switching to the victoracers-you could fell the difference in weight as the azenis are 4 pounds heavier each and that is certainly a street tire trait.