Solo 1 vs Lapping Days

[Dave Barker]

I've noticed recently that there seems to be a proliferation of different groups organizing lapping days at various tracks such that track rentals are becoming difficult to come by. Meanwhile Solo 1 is sitting around the same in entrants as last year despite a significanlty better car classification system that is fostering really close competition. So why the increase in lapping days and the stagnation of growth in Solo 1?

Obviosly there is interest in driving fast on the race track. Is it the competition that is scaring people away?

Solo 1 days now allow significantly more time for practice , often noon hour lapping as well as end of day lapping if time allows so the claim that you get more track time on a lapping day doesn't hold as much water as it used to. Also the new classification system means that you don't need a particular car to win a certain class and that no matter what you bring you can be competitive.

The other sport I participate in a lot is Hockey. Lapping days are like shinny i.e. they are low key, there is lots of ice(track) time and you get a reasonable work out even if it is not all at high exertion levels. Solo 1 events are like playing real games. The ice (track) time is less but the intensity is MUCH higher and the net work out is easily the same. I feel good after playing shinny but great after playing a game of hockey. I think even those who drive in Solo 2 can sympathise with this boost that the stop watch gives you.

I see lapping days as a great way to get some track experience but without the stop watch how do you know if you are actually improving and not making the same mistake over and over again? Catching up to that guy on the back straight at Mosport does not necessarily mean you are good and getting better.

The new car classification has made for the best competition in years in a number of classes. Despite having had the worst personal results of the past 3 years, I am loving the pressure from the closeness of my class. OTOH the competition of Solo 1 doesn't have to be against other drivers in your class as much as against yourself and your previous best times.

So you guys who spend your time lapping and never come to a Solo 1 event, what would it take to get you to " take a step on the wild side" ?

[Chris P]

Dave, try posting on some other message boards like Clubsi, tutonic, DSCR, etc etc etc.

I just dont get it either, but whatever.

[soloZ]

Track time is probably the biggest thing I see a lapping day has over a solo1 day. Lets take the Saturday at Cayuga for one, I think they were having a hard time getting each class to get three full sessions on track. I personally prefer lapping days you pretty much said it there that you can take your time or you can go full out.it isn't the compitition that is scaring people away it is just most of the people either don't know or maybe don't care.

I would come out but for a hundred and thirty dollars I can go out and go until I have no more fuel in my car. So if I hadn't broken my car I may have got what about 15 laps all together morning practice included. I am sorry I would rather spend a little more money and get alot more laps.

[northern911]

Well Dave, I for one would just about KILL to get out to either one, but I'd PREFER race day. Solo gets my money if I have the choice. But I don't. The track time available north of the 50th parallel is limited, to say the least, or is it the mere 2 months of summer I get? So I'd be glad for either.
When I'm finished my contract up here, you can count on me coming back to Solo. I'd like to try a Formula car, but haven't found any deals to get one. Started searching for a cheap Mustang 5.0 to convert this week though.
I'll be out to try and chase you down again within the next couple of seasons.

Is the shortage of entrants perhaps a lack of understanding about how easy it is to sign up and run? I went through it 4 years ago, and I can testify, it's extremely easy, and all the Solo guys are more than willing to help out. But, it is intimidating to try the first time.
Maybe hooking up with the other organizations and getting some of their chiefs to give Solo a try, then pass the word on if they like it would work??? Just a thought.
Just leave room for me on the grid please...

[ice/solo racer]

I hope you don't expect to turn a 5.0Ltr into a formula car!!:D

[northern911]

Actually, a 5 litre Formula Outhouse, with full aero wings on the door and roof. Dunno how I'll work in the aero for underneath and keep it functional though...

[CobraStang]

Some stats:
There have been a total of 109 Competitors so far this year, including 43 novices.
Of the total, 60 competitors have attended at least three events (er, raced that is, a few people attended but broke before recording a time, sorry Steve:(, sorry Jeff:(), including 21 novices.

Seems like good numbers for new interest, so the issue must be in retaining the interest of those who have come out in the past. Some people with heavy cars like mine just have no interest in the go-kart tracks. Anyone care to estimate how many regulars have been lost to lapping days vs simply not tracking at all?

Some comparisons to lapping just aren’t fair. If I had to choose between lapping on the big track at Mosport, or doing Solo 1 at the DDT I would choose??? Tough one. How about a Solo 1 on the big track? That would be so awesome!!! Yeeehhaaaaaa! (yeah, that’s a redneck V8 pony car howl!)

Perhaps the simplest and easiest step is to get on the phone and contact the competitors, not just rely on this forum. For those who go to the lapping events, encourage people to try out or return to Solo 1. Lionel in his NSX came out to Solo 1 for the first time after chatting about it with Chris and John Pacynski and myself at a lapping event. There’s a SVT (Mustang/Lightning/Focus) Day at Shannonville on Oct 4&5. My Cobra looks too ill to make it, but hopefully Chris & Chuck and maybe Greg and Colin will be there to chat up Solo 1.

Lapping and Solo 1 simply aren’t the same thing. Chris summed it up well when we were at the Apex lapping event. We were passing almost everyone on the track in my heavy ass, no handling Mustang. Chris said these guys weren’t driving as fast as they could be, maybe giving 9/10th’s. A Solo driver learns how to drive at 10/10th’s (Chris’ words).How can we emphasize this difference even more. We have an overall winner, novice winner, and class winners at each event. Would certificates or other form of recognition help? Can we recruit some people back from Solo 2? How about some recognition for those who run on street tires?

I think the sport has great potential. I only heard about it for the first time this year, at Performance World, and I’ll be attending as many events as I can from now on.

I love it!

[AirCooln]

Having done both for the first time this year, there isn’t a much difference in my mind between Solo1 and lapping apart from two main things. Solo1, you can compare your lap times with others that are in your class after your runs, versus the lapper getting a whole heap of track time. I could buy an in car timing system or a stop watch when lapping and bingo; I can start becoming a better driver and still have tons more track time doing it, which helps even further. Perhaps pick a battle with a simialr car, and run with it all day long (had great fun with an old red RX7 once!).

So the question really is what can Solo1 offer that lapping can’t? To be honest, I can’t think of anything out side of the great people and friendly faces I see every race weekend. That’s a hard point to sell to the newcomer. Solo1 faces an uphill battle I think.

[Dave Barker]

Most drivers don't drive as hard at lapping events for the simple reason that no matter what they want to do , their car is unlikely to be up to it. Brakes and tires have a tough time standing up to 2-3 hours of all out lapping at any track with the possible exception of the big track at Mosport They may go for a few hot laps then slow down a bit to let the car recover then go hot again. Remember that both SMP and TMP as well as the DDT are fairly hard on cars. I really see lapping events as good for practice and learning but certainly not the same intensity as all out competition.

So what should we do for next year?? Cut the Solo 1 season to say 10 events , get some passing insurance and start to book some lapping days??

The idea of running a Solo 1 event at the GP track at Mosport scares me as I think to drive with real intensity at that track in any of our faster cars requires a cage. You can always drive a bit more conservatively but then it isn't as much fun. I myself go lapping at Mosport at least once per year and always enjoy it but it isn't the same as competing. I am sure that I have looped the car at every corner at SMP but only 2 corners at Mosport and have had to count my lucky stars a number of times that I did not do any serious damage. I am not sure all our competitors would be so lucky at Mosport.

OTOH maybe the Solo 1 community could run a lapping day there. With all due respect to various groups that rent Mosport including Dexter, Little Britain, Kensai, the SVT group etc. it seems to me that only the BMW and Porsche club offer the real instruction ( and the number of instructors)that would be available from the vast experience of Solo 1 competitors. Considering that the Porsche group is closed to non Porsche cars and the BMW schools fill up very quickly, maybe the Solo 1 commiittee should look into running a school at the big track or possibly just a lapping day with more than a token # of instructors. We would have to know about this soon though as the track will book up next year very quickly.

[ice/solo racer]

If your looking for a way to attract more people into solo 1 price is a great place to start,with entry fees,increased tire usage,car component wear,possible crash damage,minimal timed lappage,maximum marshelling etc being other factors.
I don't really have much experience to draw from having only attended 1 solo 1 event ever.At that event (event 3?smp pro track pouring rain)I had a blast despite freezing my butt off standing at the hairpin for hours-then having to rush back and get into the car with frozen fingers and no heater and try and drift my little corolla around.
I do plan on running more solo 1 events next season,but for me its hopefully just to gain some seat time/set up time before moving to regional road race which isn't all that much more money.Look forward to bonding with the hada guys when camping next year to save money.
Just my 2 cents,right or wrong.

[Logan]

To me it seems like solo 1 is where the "big boys" go play, while lapping days are just a nice relaxing blast around the track with some buddies.

[maxrpm]

Being a track whore this year I will give you my thoughts Dave.

Having raced wheel to wheel (motorcycles, 89-91) to me racing in Solo 1 or 2 isn't racing to me, it's just timed laps and nothing more. It involves driving skill but it lacks racing skill which is the main reason why I like road racing. I'm not saying that as a put down it's just that way it is for me and probably anyone else who has raced wheel to wheel. What's more fun, thrilling and exciting to watch in CART or F1? Qualifying or the actual race?

I considered doing Solo 1 this year but if I want to win I would have to commit to several full weekends and so many dollars.
What do I get, a few timed laps, some practice in the morning and hopefully some lapping near the end of the day and a lot of waiting doing nothing. Of course I say all this based on perception rather then fact as I have never done Solo 1.

Why do I do lapping days? Lot's of track time, flexibility, Mosport. I also really like being on the track with other cars. While it isn't racing, "playing" with a friend on the track is a lot of fun for me. Remember the LBM track day we were at, we had so much open track I was actually getting bored because I hardly saw anyone else on the track so I just took it easy and worked on my lines.

Mosport has also changed my perspective as well, since running this year I have no interest in Shannonville or Cayuga or any small track for that matter.

Timing, come on, as someone mentioned earlier, pick up a Hot Lap system and you're set.

Just my two cents.

[Chris P]

Russ your making me blush :p



Something that hasn't really been touched on yet is what SOLO 1 actually is. SOLO 1 is a car racing SERIES!! As in a championship, a tour of the race tracks in Ontario, seeing allot of variables which can make or break a drivers season, yes SEASON, not just a event here and there (at which point it’s just timed lapping). Solo 1 offers something more then just lapping and comparing times. Here we are given a chance to aim at a goal, be it, win your class, rookie, or the overall championship. To do these you need to be committed, and that means coming out to at least 90% of the events if you even want a chance. You need to choose and car and the correct assortment of modifications not to mention investing huge amounts of time and money.
Think about it, SOLO 1 gives people a cost effective way to race in an established racing series. Besides being cost effective its relatively very easy to enter into the sport which can not be said about many other championships( Mazdaspeed Miata Cup Presented by Hankook Tires, Speed World Challange, Canadian FF1600 series etc etc etc etc.)

I donno, there’s just so much more to it and it saddens me that people can't see beyond collecting lap times, there is something bigger here. I really wish that I could put it into better words tonight but I haven't had much sleep in the last week. Perhaps somebody can make some sense and try to reiterate it.

[ScotcH]

One possible incentive might be PRIZES! Several of my friends think it's really cool what I'm doing this year (1st solo 1 season, and yes, I'm trying to recruit :)), but when they ask "so what do you win?", it's sorta disappointing to say "just my name on the 'net ..."

I know cost is an issue, and maybe we just need more sponsors, but some sort of prize for the top competitors might attract more people. The Yokohama tires are a great thing, but it's not competition based.

[glh]

chris i think you hit the nail on the head you need to commit and it takes on a hole new meaning i to come from motorcycle racing ei motocross ,enduro and cross country
i made the decisition after attenting the school in the spring to give it a run and this has become an obsesion and i have had a real up and down year broke just about everything on my car but i'll be back sept 20 to try again
ps not to toot my own horn but 15 years on 2 wheels
net resaults 3 time club highpoint 1 national championship
and 1 FIM isde silver metal prize money 0
lots of experance and i agree with chris this is racing we just don't hit each other

[ice/solo racer]

I know where maxrpm is coming from,racing directly agaisnt other vehicles allows you see how you doing instantly.There are times when two drivers are running essentially identical times but one knows how to sucker the other into letting them win.
I've won lots of ice races where I wasn't faster than the second place car,simply used proper race craft to get them to run off line,make them think that I WAS faster or use a lapper to my advantage!:p
I realize that taking the other cars out of the equation will force you to drive all out all the time,and thats a good thing.
I also agree with scotch,prizes make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside!,I've won 3 ont. class championships in the last 3 years and all I have to show for the effort is 3 dinky little trophy's,stereo compitors get 4 foot ones for finishing 3rd out of 3 at a meaningless show,even mini stock over trackers get the bulk of entry fees and fuel costs back on a decent night in prize money.
I have no idea on solving this things,just giving my thoughts.:)

[AirCooln]

So how do make Solo1 better. The following is only my opinion. You are welcome to consider it, or ignore it.

First, I believe there can be major improvements in how the information is given to a new comer looking to get started in Solo1. Most people thinking about getting involved will look on the website. When I got there I found it a little daunting going through all the documentation I found on it. I almost gave up before I begun thinking there was just to much red tape blocking me from hitting the track. I believe a make over of http://www.soloontario.com/so-forms.asp could help a lot in reducing the perceived complexity. Perhaps a real world HTML process to follow using simple and straight forward steps.

My second point comes back to the idea made about becoming a better driver. I would like to see my lap times with out a 15 minute gap of parking my car, running over to the stand, looking over my times, and then trying to remember what happened each trip around that may have effected my result. The first resolution that pops into my head is a light board wired into lap timing. Perhaps located half way down the straight and over head to us so we can safely glance at it. What about a transponder system rental/loan or purchase so it can be done while we have open lapping periods too.

As mentioned, this is a series. I have to admit, an expensive one requiring a lengthy commitment of you want to place well. I’d hate to see less events. Instead of scoring 7 out of your best 12, what about 5 or 6? You can still place competitively and still come when you can.

Passing insurance was mentioned. This perhaps applies to me more then others, but during open lapping periods it doesn’t take long for the faster cars to catch up to the slower ones forcing the car off the track to be polite. I think passing on the straights during this time is a great idea. But not during competition of course. I see little need for it.

Any way, that’s what came to mind this morning before I had any caffeine.

[TFGR]

Originally posted by Dave Barker


Obviosly there is interest in driving fast on the race track. Is it the competition that is scaring people away?



Your kidding right?

Its bang for the buck.....more time on the track!

Ive been to over a dozen lapping days this year. The average cost has been $225 per day! (I didn't include the free track time I got when marshalling/teaching. But I did include Dexter days which are very pricey, so the average is likely less ).
One day I burned two tanks of gas lapping......have you ever done that at Solo1?
Don't answer that!
:rolleyes:

I have never done Solo 1....so I have no opinion first hand....I have done Solo 2 though and do like the competition. But, as far as I can see, its not the same. Being on the track with other cars makes a big difference. Its the experience gained, having to pass a slower car in a corner, or changing lines to accomidate other cars on track or the thrill of following a faster car and learning while doing so. I just don't see how the two compare.
Apples and Oranges!

[ADAM]

well after doing 5 years of solo 1...i have to say the best part of it is the PEOPLE....thats hard to sell....so...what do we have as a product vs our compitition (lapping)

1=it costs more
2=its more of a commitment
3=its hard to win at and be good
4=safety thing


1=cost...yeah...solo 1 is not such a good deal...IMO $130 for basically 4x4 laps racing....in lapping you can go for hours ...i enjoy chasing people lapping...in fact our local 240sx club www.son240sx.ca had a lapping day...and i borrowed a NA 240sx for the event...and had tons of fun passing people and trying to keep up with the turbo cars....very fun...

2=its a big commitment to actually be part of the series....you need 7 events.....which means....you need 7 wins with almost perfect backup scores.....which means you need spare events....which means you have to field a car for a very long time and depending on your class at a VERY high level and EXPENSE...yep...its damn time consuming and expensive...my suggestion... is .....maybe you need 4-5 events to place in the championship....

for those of us who have cars that are highly modified..its a real bugger to get them to work at all the events...

3=for newbees...they don't have a chance....we 100% need to give bonus points for DOT non R tires...cause if you don't have them you are toast....so....most people will not enter the series cause they are at such a distict disadvantage...we are basically FORCING them.....to buy an extra set of rims...and go thru the pain in the ass of changing rims every event.....is that FUN.....no......it sucks...really it does....

4=solo 1 is very safety related....i mean...lapping can run with a starter only....why do we need all these marshalls? wasting thier time out on the track....do we really need more than one person at a corner?...people do not like to do that kind of stuff...




thats my thoughts anyway..

[Nissan Racer]

Originally posted by maxrpm
Being a track whore this year I will give you my thoughts Dave.

Having raced wheel to wheel (motorcycles, 89-91) to me racing in Solo 1 or 2 isn't racing to me, it's just timed laps and nothing more. It involves driving skill but it lacks racing skill which is the main reason why I like road racing. I'm not saying that as a put down it's just that way it is for me and probably anyone else who has raced wheel to wheel. What's more fun, thrilling and exciting to watch in CART or F1? Qualifying or the actual race?

(So WRC is not racing? Dakar? What about Isle of Man TT? It looks like racing to me)
(Personally I like watching qualifying, theres nothing like watching an F1 car, whose driver is going all out for that one hot lap, with no worries about tire preservation, traffic, or pit strategy)

I considered doing Solo 1 this year but if I want to win I would have to commit to several full weekends and so many dollars.
What do I get, a few timed laps, some practice in the morning and hopefully some lapping near the end of the day and a lot of waiting doing nothing. Of course I say all this based on perception rather then fact as I have never done Solo 1.

(I got so many laps at the few events I went to this year, an hour or better first thing in the morning, and hour at lunch and another hour at the end of the day...that being said...who cares how many laps were turned...its not about just putting miles on the car...its a competition. If you race regionally yiou quickly find out ...if you race only one series...that, for your money, you get one, maybe two, practice sessions 20-30 min, one qualifying session 20-30 mins and two or three races 20 min...up to 40 min...for an entire weekend, so you're looking at maybe 2-2.5 hours driving time total for the weekend...I know I have done upwards of 4-5 hours track time at solo I events including morning, lunch and after race lapping)



Mosport has also changed my perspective as well, since running this year I have no interest in Shannonville or Cayuga or any small track for that matter.

(then you're not much of a track whore :P more like a trophy wife :D
I'll drive anything, anywhere. Solo II is a great foundation and still a great place to sharpen your driving skills, If you look at the ranks of the drivers in the Speed WC races, a large number of them have come from a Solo background. Solo I gets you on the track, higher speeds and a different skill set. But some great tracks to run on. The DDT has a lot to offer, a variety of corners depending on configuration. (I was a little surprised that Solo I doesn't take more advantage of this and run a bigger variety of courses there) and elevation changes. And Shannonville too, with three principal courses, gives a good variety or corners to learn.)

Timing, come on, as someone mentioned earlier, pick up a Hot Lap system and you're set.

(its not about getting your fastest lap, its about being in competition with other cars. At the end of the day, a lapping event is just lapping, but SoloI is a competition, and I'd rather be in competition, then just touring around)

Just my two cents.

I feel sorry for those that don't understand that this is a competitive series, with events that are won by skilled drivers, who can not only handle their cars, but the ability to be competitive when the clock is running and there are no excuses. Like any sport, there is a difference between being a racecar driver, and being a competitive racecar driver. If it is enough for you to be out on the track with your friends and tinkering with your car, then lapping may be for you. If, on the other hand, you enjoy the spirit of competition, and want to see how you stack up...AND HAVE THE DRIVE TO WIN...then Solo I/II is the place to be. Its not about the trophies (I have shelves filled with them, and they are nice but they are just reminders of the past.) And its not about prizes, though these too are nice (especially cash since it can be sunk back into the car :D ) and its not about who gets the most laps in. Its about being out there, competing against others, who also want to win, and seeing if your skills are good enough..on that day, right now...to win.

[TFGR]

Originally posted by Nissan Racer
I feel sorry for those that don't understand that this is a competitive series, with events that are won by skilled drivers, who can not only handle their cars, but the ability to be competitive when the clock is running and there are no excuses.

WTF are you talking about. Everyone in this thread said that they like competition....including Sam, the person you quoted! Your comments sound childish!


BTW Sam I never knew how slow I was over the top of turn 4 at Waterford until I tried to follow you over there! I learned alot!

[AirCooln]

Let’s keep this a good brain storm session. Everyone’s comments are valid here and no idea's or comments need to belittled.

[TFGR]

Originally posted by AirCooln
Let’s keep this a good brain storm session. Everyone’s comments are valid here and no idea's or comments need to belittled.

Sorry!

[maxrpm]

Originally posted by Nissan Racer
I feel sorry for those that don't understand that this is a competitive series,
It's competitive, but not the type of competition I like, Wheel to Wheel is to me is real competition and real racing and something that solo 1 will never be able to be compared with.

Lapping Days are not racing, but to me it's a lot closer to then Solo 1. Like I said I get great enjoyment out of being in a small group of friends lapping around the track. Like the video I posted a while back of me chasing a Supra, that was awsome to me and very close to racing, that is something that Solo 1 will never be able to offer me.

Everything you get from Solo 1 I can get at a lapping day and more. I've lapped at all the track you guys have gone to and more.

You and other have mentioned "the people" what like everyone ignores each other at lapping days? Where the hell are you lapping Afganistan?


with events that are won by skilled drivers, who can not only handle their cars, but the ability to be competitive when the clock is running and there are no excuses.

You make it sound like no one at Lapping Days have any skills, come and I will show you plenty of people that will hand you your ass.

[/B]If, on the other hand, you enjoy the spirit of competition, and want to see how you stack up...AND HAVE THE DRIVE TO WIN...then Solo I/II is the place to be. [/B]

WRONG, real wheel to wheel racing is the place to be.

Its about being out there, competing against others, who also want to win, and seeing if your skills are good enough..on that day, right now...to win.

This is real racing and competition to me, Right Click Save As (http://nsxfiles.s2ki.com/cs_pulp2.wmv)

[rpr]

Here are some random thoughts from a Solo 1 newbie (my first event was the last one at TMP), in no particular order:

- bang for the buck: the saturday event I was at was a waste of time and money. I think I got maybe ten laps out of the whole day, and this was the first time I'd ever been on a track. Not very encouraging. Sunday was better, I had to leave early but I still got in about 30 laps, what with morning lapping, my 2x4 runs in the first session, and then lunch time lapping (after which I had to leave). I've never done a lapping day, but I can guess from what others have said that if you just compare $/lap, there is no comparison.

- organization of events: if my wife had been there (she is one of the most organized people I know) she would have laughed. There were numerous delays all weekend, and a number of times there were 0 cars on the track. Not acceptable. Not sure what can be done here.

- paperwork: in the beginning, it seems like a lot of work, but once it's done, it's done. It is a bit daunting, and perhaps some streamlining and online signup would alleviate some of the stress involved with that.

- marshalling: it seems that one person per station would work, although two is probably optimal. 3 is a waste from what I saw.

- prizes: That would be nice. As was mentioned, even dirt stockers get back their entry fee. I don't know all the economics of running an event, but is it not possible to have some kind of cash prize, or free event entry/discount for class winners? I would assume by the amount of door prizes etc. at the banquet that maybe some of that money could trickle back down the line to actual winners on the course as opposed to someone who just happens to have the right ticket? I don't attend the banquets because it's not my thing, so I essentially have no chance at getting any type of prize.

- people: the second best thing about the events. I know the HADA guys pretty well, getting to know some of the other people that I only see here was pretty cool as well. Of course the camp fire has to be experienced in person to fully appreciate it... :)

- competition (the actual driving part): the best thing about the events. It was the most fun I've ever had in a car. I've run Solo 2 for the last two years, and I can pretty much tell after one weekend that I will probably run Solo 1 exclusively next year, but I will probably only be able to do 1 event per weekend due to various circumstances.

Tom

[maxrpm]

As I've already said I am not bashing Solo 1 or 2. It's just not my thing and I've given my reasons why I choose lapping days over it. You can get defensive over it or you can take it as constructive criticism and try to improve upon it.

If I had the money I'd be racing wheel to wheel over lapping days, though I would probably still do lapping days for the track time.

How should you improve it?

- Get rid of the arrogance, as a bystander I see a lot of it here towards anything other then Solo, hell even between yourselves. A good example was the childish bashing of Drifting. I don't like Drifting but I thought it was really immature and probably turned off some potential new Solo recruits. We should be promoting and supporting all forms of motorsport, it benefits everyone as a whole.

- Swag for competitors, people like free things, hell I get T-Shirts at some of my lapping days.

- Cross promotion, start going to the import events and hand out flyers. Anyone promote at the Indy this year? Get some of the fans into it, I guarantee you that most of the population have no idea they can take their own car onto the track. How about an ad on AM640? or invite The Star to attend, they did a whole page article on lapping days, why not Solo? Add Motoring 200x to the invite list.

- Get an audience, thus you can get some sponsorship. Start making it exciting to more then just the competitors.

I could come up with more but I'm at work....it's all easier said then done, but it needs to be done.

[ScotcH]

This is great, guys. It really shows some of the commitment that people have for the sport. Dave did a great thing by bringing this topic up. Now all we need to do is just make some of these suggestions happen.

Changes only happen if people want them and work on them ...

I really like the idea of the real-time score board (I wrote one for the Ottawa Dragonboat festival :)) This is really the only way that spectators can get into it. Watching cars go around the track is not that much fun, unless they are passing/crashing. If the times of the laps, and some stats were available as the cars corssed the line, it might make for a more exciting spectator sport.

[maxrpm]

I agree, instant gratification, which is why Drag Racing is so popular and draws big crowds.

Originally posted by ScotcH
This is great, guys. It really shows some of the commitment that people have for the sport. Dave did a great thing by bringing this topic up. Now all we need to do is just make some of these suggestions happen.

Changes only happen if people want them and work on them ...

I really like the idea of the real-time score board (I wrote one for the Ottawa Dragonboat festival :)) This is really the only way that spectators can get into it. Watching cars go around the track is not that much fun, unless they are passing/crashing. If the times of the laps, and some stats were available as the cars corssed the line, it might make for a more exciting spectator sport.

[Shaman]

FWIW, I do mostly lapping days right now and not Solo-1 because I don't feel I get the rythm and smoothness out of Solo that I want - knock it if you will, but I have to do what I find interesting or give up the sport, you know...

That said, it's not a knock on Solo-1 because it *is* competition and it *is* very high-adrenaline balls-to-the-wall racing. No saving tires or brakes in this sport, it's fast as you can go and nothing but. And that does appeal!

OK, here's one thing of constructive criticism though: R compound tires are an issue. Right off the bat to be in Solo-1 a person really needs to buy not one, but two alternate sets of wheels and tires. That's a huge expense for anyone trying to get into the sport - and last I checked, it's an amateur sport.

I'd be in favour of all production car classes using only street tires. That also limits speeds, especially for the modified cars. There, I've said it.

P.S. I'm looking to come back into Solo-1 in a big way in an open-wheeled car that has low maintenance and doesn't present the biggest barrier to attendance for me: cost of repairs and time spent doing them.

[maxrpm]

When are you going to be bringing that bad boy of yours to Mosport?

Originally posted by Shaman
FWIW, I do mostly lapping days right now and not Solo-1 because I don't feel I get the rythm and smoothness out of Solo that I want - knock it if you will, but I have to do what I find interesting or give up the sport, you know...

That said, it's not a knock on Solo-1 because it *is* competition and it *is* very high-adrenaline balls-to-the-wall racing. No saving tires or brakes in this sport, it's fast as you can go and nothing but. And that does appeal!

OK, here's one thing of constructive criticism though: R compound tires are an issue. Right off the bat to be in Solo-1 a person really needs to buy not one, but two alternate sets of wheels and tires. That's a huge expense for anyone trying to get into the sport - and last I checked, it's an amateur sport.

I'd be in favour of all production car classes using only street tires. That also limits speeds, especially for the modified cars. There, I've said it.

P.S. I'm looking to come back into Solo-1 in a big way in an open-wheeled car that has low maintenance and doesn't present the biggest barrier to attendance for me: cost of repairs and time spent doing them.

[Dave]

Clearly Solo 1 can improve on how we run our events, how quickly we get lap times back to competitors, how easy we make entry into the series (ie. reducing or simplifying paperwork), etc. These are all things the series organizers are aware of, but in practical terms are surprisingly difficult to address. We've also got some very real financial constraints that prevent us from adding equipment like AirCooln's digital display idea (though I agree that would be a fantastic addition to the series), but there are other less expensive ways to innovate. We're trying, for example, to give driver's a time slip 'Post It' after each run session so that they get more immediate feedback. Adam has also been generous enough to supply us with a radar gun that we use to post top speed data at some events. Anyway, there are some great suggestions in this thread and I would encourage anyone who would like their ideas/suggestions addressed to come out to the Solo 1 Workshop in the morning session at the Sheraton North on November 1st, the same day and location as our season ending banquet and award ceremony.

FYI for some of our newer competitors, in the past we have had more prizes to give away on weekends, though we do still give away one set of Yokohama R-compounds every weekend to those competitors who run on these tires. A few years back we had all kinds of free product from Toyo, Kumho, Castrol and a few other automotive related companies, but unfortunately we've lost quite a few of our sponsors. If you guys know of any companies that might be receptive to a sponsorship deal with Solo 1, we'd love to hear about it! And don't forget we do give away a lot of prizes at the Banquet as well as a boat load of trophies.


In my opinion one of the cooler parts of being a competitor in the Solo 1 series is historical. This series has been around quite a long time (over twenty years) so we've got a huge database of lap times that really give competitors who care about this sort of thing a sense of how their driving stacks up against some of the best drivers in the province over the last few decades. This historical aspect also adds to the feeling of accomplishment for the overall and class championship winners, who get to see their name on the same trophy as some truly accomplished drivers like Tony McGrath and John Paczynski. You can't get this at a lapping day, though I'm sure this doesn't matter to the lapping day crowd and I'm not saying it should. To each his own, I figure. It's just a matter of taste, and for me I like the flavour of the Solo 1 series...it's got a great mix of competition, history, and track time (there's a lot more of it available than some of you guys think...just ask Jason Altimari who always seems to get at least an hour or two of lapping in during Solo 1 event practice sessions in the morning, lunch hour, and at the end of the day).

FYI for you guys who think road racing is the only real form of competition driving, there is a school of thought (and I'm not saying it's correct...again, it's all a matter of taste) that argues that Solo 1 or time trial racing is the purest form of motorsports in that you're not being blocked, dive bombed, or run off the road by nearby competitors, but rather it's just you against the clock. This is, IMO, a very pure form of driving and a true measure of who is fastest on any given day and on any given track. There is no racecraft involved of course, and I love being in a good race (nothing gets my blood pumping faster) but from a pure speed competition standpoint you can't do much better than a time trial or Solo 1 style event. It's just you against the clock, and that is a pretty exciting feeling too. I don't think too many people would argue that WRC (World Rally Championship) isn't real racing, yet these guys are doing time trails just like Solo 1.

Anyway, like I said earlier it's all a matter of taste and I don't expect some of the hardcore lapping guys to "convert" to Solo 1 any more than I expect a F1 driver to convert to WRC. They are entirely different disciplines, take a different mindset, and both look like a whole bunch of fun depending on what floats your boat. Personally, I enjoy lapping days but they don't get the competitive juices flowing like a Solo 1 event. I'd love to try road racing once the wallet turbo can handle it, but until then I'll be at as many Solo 1 events as I can make it out to. Dicing at a lapping day just doesn't have the same sense of urgency or competitive do-or-die aspect that being in a true competition environment like Solo 1 has. But hey, that's just my opinion and I could be wrong (thanks Dennis Miller...)

Cheers,
Dave

[CobraStang]

Wheel to wheel racing is true racing, I agree, point made, no argument, I give up, but I’d rather not take a second job as a body man. Have we really lost many Solo 1 guys to wheel to wheel anyway?

Real good instructors are surely one of the advantages of Solo 1. Perhaps mentoring would be good. I kind of feel like John P has been my mentor. It would be nice for a novice to know that, for sure, an instructor will seek him or her out, and ask to take some laps together, instead of waiting for a shy novice to ask for help. I’ve tried not to be bashful, but I’m sure others may be more timid.

OK, so, back to OT vs Solo 1. Recall that the stat’s indicate that 35% of attendees with three or more events are novices. While attracting additional novices is good, I think Dave started this thread to get former Solo 1 competitors to return.

NOBODY will complain if there is more lapping at a Solo 1 event, right?

1. Have the driver’s meeting at 8:45a vs 10:00a. I’m sure there’s a good reason for the late meeting, but how about trading that reason for additional lap time and therefore additional participants.
2. Better planning regarding radios and flags. I think we were short flags at only one event, and that’s unlikely to be repeated. Reliable radios have been an issue several times, regardless of who’s at fault. I’m not sure how to solve this, short of renting our own radios for the weekend (five radios x $75??). Might be worth looking into.
3. Marshalling is enjoyable, and a great way to meet the other competitors (especially for a novice like me). However, we don’t really need four or five people at each station. It takes longer to put this number of people in place. If we make an effort, I think we can have much less down time because of this. Maybe the people in the last group of each session get a free “get out of marshalling” pass. The people in the second to last group should have enough time to get ready to go on the track as soon as the last car comes off. After all, how long does it take to powder your nose (or shiny dome, not mentioning any names)?
4. The morning lapping is full, and the post competition lapping is rarely used to capacity. Indeed, there is often only one or two cars on the track in the afternoon. You know who you are. Why not have more lapping in the morning, and reduce or skip the afternoon lapping?

OK, so here’s what I propose:
Driver’s meeting at 8:45
2 hours of morning lapping guaranteed!!
have lunch on the fly
still get four sessions in, maybe three if people break down a lot.

Lets keep this discussion going while we still have a couple of events to go.

P.S. Loving the shirt idea!! I would gladly pay for collared button up shirt like the one at the Mosport Mustang Day.

[GR8 Ride]

Well, time for a few comments from the other *side* of the argument.

Personally, I'm not much into EITHER lapping days or Solo 1, not because either of them aren't valuable, it's just that they don't hold much appeal any longer. McAuley and Sorensen did their best to talk me into Solo 1 years ago, but I just skipped that step and went into Regional racing instead.

Every person has their own level of commitment and resources available to fill their 'go fast crack pipe' (with credit to Doug Hayashi for this one....). For some, it's lapping days, or driving schools. For others, time trials (ie, Solo 1, which IS NOT racing) suits the bill. For others, it's the desire to go door handle to door handle with someone. There isn't anything inherently wrong with any of them, and each person needs to decide how far they are willing to go on their own.

For me, it's simply this: the numbers (ie, laptimes) are largely irrelevant. If I pass someone and finish ahead of them, I win, regardless of my *best* laptimes. This happened to me just this past weekend, in which I turned quicker laps than the 2 cars in front of me, but wasn't able to make any passes stick. I finished in 5th, instead of 3rd.

The other reason I believe (again, my opinion only) that the numbers are largely irrelevant is that each car is completely different (in both regional racing AND Solo 1). It's a test, a comparison if you will. My driving and racing ability against someone else's, and the only way Solo 1 would prove anything is if we drove the exact same car under identical conditions.

In regional racing, even if two different cars with two different drivers are turning laps within a second or two of each other, it's still my racecraft skills vs someone else's racecraft skills as to who wins the battle.

Like I said, none of this is for the intent of knocking Solo 1. I believe the reason Solo 1 hasn't drawn the crowds it should is largely a perception issue. IE, not enough track time for the money.... Whether that perception is accurate or not is again, irrelevant.

As Adam and others have pointed out, Solo1 isn't exactly *friendly* to the rookie driver. They likely don't believe they have the skills necessary to compete, nor the budget (or inclination) to purchase a dedicated set of wheels and tires just for Solo1 use. Once these novice track students become experienced enough to justify such purchases (and their own skill level), they often look at the time commitment and 'bang for the buck' of Solo1, and figure they can get more practice at more BMW / PCA schools, or even open lapping days.

Let's face it, a Trackmasters day at Mosport is worth an entire season of Solo1 time at Cayuga or SMP, and that's a perception issue that's tough to beat.

Also, the majority of the driving school crowd are fans of wheel to wheel racing, ie, F1, CART, Speed World Challenge, Grand Am Cup etc. They can *pretend* to get that experience while on the track with BMWCC, PCA, Trackmasters, Dexter Days etc, but that experience can't be duplicated at a Solo 1 event. Driving around on the track by yourself does get a little boring after awhile, again, in my own opinion. Trying to keep your friend behind you, or catch up to him in front of you, tends to hold more instant gratification appeal for the majority of this crowd.

Also, I will dispute the notion (to a certain extent anyway) that Solo 1 will improve your driving, simply by providing you with laptimes. Laptimes are a measure of how quickly your car is getting around the track, but you may still be doing it wrong (or at least poorly). I'm a firm believer in real, in-car instruction for improving your driving skills. I'd be hesitant to pitch Solo 1 as a method for improving your driving, especially given that NOBODY'S insurance is valid for a Solo 1 event, unlike a true driving school.

Again, just my opinions on why I went regional racing and still participate in the occasional driving school / open lapping day, and not Solo 1.


Pat

[Chris P]

its alot easier to win a race from row one........ :eek:

[Dave]

Solo 1, which IS NOT racing

I'm sorry Pat (and this is not meant to be a personal attact whatsoever), but this sort of inaccurate statement can be quite harmful to the image of affordable forms of racing including Solo 1 and Solo 2.

Racing is defined at its most fundamental level as "a competition of speed" and Solo 1 certainly satisfies this definition. The fastest car in each Solo 1 class, which are BTW very closely disputed (often down to the tenth or even hundredth of a second), wins the competition at each Solo 1 event. This is racing by its very definition, it's just not door to door racing which in the minds of some means it's not "real" racing. I find that attitude both factually incorrect and quite frankly a touch elitist. The fact is is that there are many types and kinds of racing, including Solo 1 or time trials, Solo 2, rallying, targa, road racing, street racing, horse racing, speed skating, downhill skiing, rabid monkey racing, etc. Nobody questions World Cup downhill skiing as a form of racing, yet it is a time trial just like many other legitimate forms of racing. Statements that Solo 1 is not racing is based entirely on perception (which seems to be most prevalent among the road race community, who, to quote Doug Hayashi again, see themselves at the top of the 'pyramid of speed') rather than considering the definition of racing and what accurately constitutes it.

That being said, the perception that Solo 1 is not "real" racing is both a good and a bad thing. It's a good thing in that we're able to attract competitors who do not want to participate in bumper to bumper racing for fear of damaging their car. It's also a good thing in that the lack of passing and close quarters driving with other cars means we can get our events insured at a lower rate. It's a bad thing, however, in that some potential competitors and sponsors perceive it as being something other than real racing and therefore less worthy of their attention.

To reiterate, Solo 1 is a competition and it is based on speed, which are the two fundamental elements that define racing. We're all free to invent our own definitions and create our own 'pyramids of speed', but lets not try to pass off perception as fact.

Cheers,
Dave

[TFGR]

Originally posted by Dave
I'm sorry Pat (and this is not meant to be a personal attact whatsoever), but this sort of inaccurate statement can be quite harmful to the image of affordable forms of racing including Solo 1 and Solo 2.


I agree with Pat? Anyway....since I was just out of diapers I always loved automobile racing and dreamed about becoming a race car driver. In my minds eye racing is not timed events like Solo1/2 or even rally (although some of the best drivers I know do these disaplines).....it has always been wheel to wheel racing.

[Dave]

I plan to go regional racing in the Touring GT series in the very near future, but I guess I just don't see wheel to wheel racing as 'real' racing or 'better' racing in comparison to any other type of contest of speed, it's just 'different' racing with its own set of appealing characteristics and drawbacks. For me, the beauty of road racing is that there's so much on-track strategy involved (if you're in a competitive series where the cars are fairly evenly matched), or racecraft. I really enjoy karting for this reason.

Anyway, this is a fairly semantic debate and quite off-topic from what Dr. Dave originally intended so I'll quit harping on what the term 'racing' actually means.

Time for me to get my 'time trial' tires flip on the rims...

Cheers,
Dave

[ADAM]

imo i would have to say that solo 1 is a purer form of racing than door to door...door to door is nothing about the pure lines...since you have to avoid other cars..and getting smoked by those other drivers.... solo 1 is about the pure speed of the driver and the car they have chosen to drive in....

i kinda relate it to NASCAR and WRC....WRC drivers are at one with thier car.... NASCAR drivers are at one with the walls and sheet metal IMO..is that racing? anyone can field a car and smash people around around the track.....or in a wall....and then say "racing's rubbin"

times dictate speed and skill...the track is the opponent...the temperature...the weather...your mind....your car...they are the enemy....whats the greater challenge......

to beat some riced out street cars in lapping....or beating your fear of lifting the throttle on a high speed sweeper..and forcing your mind to keep the throttle down....when you know it should be lifted..

there is some primordial challenge for me..to go to the DDT track..and hit 160kph+ on that back straight..and force my foot to the floor..as the chassis shakes and bounces outwards to the edge of the track....pushing the car to the limits of the braking zone..and tire adhesion..pushing the car and me..pushing my will....

another car on the track following or me chasing it is not relevent to those experiances...it is a pure battle....of fear and your own mind....and the hardest battles of all to fight...are in your own mind....its hard to battle yourself when you have to worry about others on the track...
:)

[GR8 Ride]

You know Dave, I'm never usually one to disagree with you, but there is one MAJOR factor in which Solo 1 and racing (including WRC) differ.

You're not racing, if a full competition roll cage isn't required, and full safety gear isn't required (ie, full Nomex, harnesses etc). Sorry, but that's my point. I think you'd have a tough time convincing anyone who's gone who's gone wheel to wheel with someone in anger that time trials are anything like 'racing'.

WRC requires full cages, full Nomex etc. Solo 1 doesn't.

I know a LOT of the Solo 1 crowd wants to look at themselves as 'race car drivers', but time trials don't hold a candle to wheel to wheel racing. It's one thing to take turn 2 at Mosport as fast as you can, it's another thing altogether to take turn 2 as fast as you can, ON THE OUTSIDE, with two cars inside of you.

I'm not saying this to be snobbish about it, but the level of safety equipment required alone points to the inherent differences between racing, and time trials.

As to Chris' point, I agree. This is why racing provides the best of both worlds...qualifying is as important a tool in winning the race as pure race craft is. Racing requires that you not only know how to turn a fast lap, but how to turn fast laps when you can't run the school line. With 45+ cars on the track at once, you often don't get to choose your line through corners....you have to have the car control skills to get your car around the track off the line moreso than you're actually on it.

In Solo 1, your only competition is the clock. In a race, you're competing with both the clock, AND the 40+ other cars out there on the track with you, all of whom have the same objective as you, to finish first.

I learned more about race craft in a 40 minute Enduro at Mosport than I have in the past 5 years of driving schools, including instructing for the past 2 years. It truly is the most fun you can have with shoes on....


Pat

[ADAM]

maybe we could set up a "king of the hill" regional racing vs solo 1 shoot out...

place...shannonville pro track......

2 cars enter ...1 car leaves....

they start at the end of the 1/4 mile on the back of the pro....3 laps.....first car to cross wins...

run it like an elimination tree....

production cars only....no mod rules....run what you brung....no classes...no limits...whatever tires you want..ect...

the ultimate shoot out......

[maxrpm]

Originally posted by ADAM
imo i would have to say that solo 1 is a purer form of racing than door to door...door to door is nothing about the pure lines...since you have to avoid other cars..and getting smoked by those other drivers.... solo 1 is about the pure speed of the driver and the car they have chosen to drive in....

Your description doesn't mean it's a purer form of racing, maybe I'll give you, that it's a purer form of the perfect lap.

i kinda relate it to NASCAR and WRC....WRC drivers are at one with thier car.... NASCAR drivers are at one with the walls and sheet metal IMO..is that racing? anyone can field a car and smash people around around the track.....or in a wall....and then say "racing's rubbin"

And WRC driver don't have to worry about trees, cliffs and people? Same thing to me as Nascar. I hate Nascar but I it's still real racing compared to Time Trial

times dictate speed and skill...the track is the opponent...the temperature...the weather...your mind....your car...they are the enemy....
and these things don't exists when ther are other cars on the track?

whats the greater challenge......to beat some riced out street cars in lapping....or beating your fear of lifting the throttle on a high speed sweeper..and forcing your mind to keep the throttle down....when you know it should be lifted..

again, you make sound like it doesn't exist when other cars on the track

there is some primordial challenge for me..to go to the DDT track..and hit 160kph+ on that back straight..and force my foot to the floor..as the chassis shakes and bounces outwards to the edge of the track....pushing the car to the limits of the braking zone..and tire adhesion..pushing the car and me..pushing my will.... DDT? Please, try it at Mosport's Grand prix track, not the go-kart track.

another car on the track following or me chasing it is not relevent to those experiances...it is a pure battle....of fear and your own mind....and the hardest battles of all to fight...are in your own mind....its hard to battle yourself when you have to worry about others on the track...
:)

Actually it is relavent, it's an addition to what you have described, but it's dynamic and not static which is far more challenging.

[Dave]

Pat, you're not allowed to disagree with me! That's just...not...right! :p But seriously, this is one of those 'hot button' issues that just seems to get people's backs up so I'm going to leave it alone for now except to say that the notion that it's not real racing unless a rollcage is required strikes me as rather strange. Safety regulations (note: some Solo 1 classes do require rollover protection and Nomex) have nothing to do with whether or not a competition of speed is taking place or not. Motorcycle racers don't have rollcages or fire supression systems because it's impractical to do so. Shifter karts don't have rollcages but they'll will blow the doors of most of the regional road race cars in Ontario in terms of lap times and do some of the closest wheel to wheel racing you'll ever see because the karts are so evenly matched.

As I'm sure you're well aware, safety regulations are developed to correspond adequately to the perceived risk involved in a contest of speed, not whether it's 'real' racing or not. The only reason Solo 1 doesn't require many of the cars to compete to be equipped with rollover protection is that the level of risk inherent in our particular form of racing is considered to be much lower than road racing because there are no cars in close proximity to each other on the race track. This is simply a matter of safety regulations matching the risk level (real or perceived), which is exactly why WRC cars require extremely strong rollcages.

The thing is, risk has no correlation to whether a contest of speed is 'real racing' or not. There are safe (relatively speaking) types of racing and dangerous types of racing. It's all relative. Road racing is probably a lot safer than motorcycle racing yet because it's possible to equip a car with rollover protection the rules require it in order to reduce risk. You can't equip a motorcycle with a rollcage, so the drivers simply assume a higher level of risk and learn to crash 'smart' whenever possible.

Anyway, like I said before we're getting pretty far of the intended path of this thread so lets steer this back to a more productive discussion of how we can improve Solo 1 and make it more attractive to lappers, road racers, autocrossers, and dentists :)

[ctenche]

Whoa, this thread is getting really off topic. I don't think anyone is denying the adrenaline rush of door to door competition nor is anyone trying to belittle the skills involved in putting together the perfect lap. It's all supposed to fun so who cares what we call it. Let's put the "is it racing or not" question aside and agree that both forms of motorsports can be enjoyable.

Now then, let's get back to Dave's original question which was basically, how do you increase the participation level in Solo 1? We've heard some great suggestions here and I would love to hear some more.

I wonder though if we wouldn't get better information by posting a similar question on another board where people don't already compete in Solo 1. For example, what do the Solo 2 competitors think? What is holding them back from coming out to events? What's holding back the guy with the dropped Civic who likes to drag race at Cayuga from switching to Solo 1?

If we can find out what the roadblocks are maybe we can then start working on removing them. Seems to be a better approach then just guessing at what the issues are.

[AlienDNA]

Originally posted by GR8 Ride
You know Dave, I'm never usually one to disagree with you, but there is one MAJOR factor in which Solo 1 and racing (including WRC) differ.

You're not racing, if a full competition roll cage isn't required, and full safety gear isn't required (ie, full Nomex, harnesses etc). Sorry, but that's my point. I think you'd have a tough time convincing anyone who's gone who's gone wheel to wheel with someone in anger that time trials are anything like 'racing'.

WRC requires full cages, full Nomex etc. Solo 1 doesn't.

Um, Nomex isn't required in NASCAR. You could, in theory, drive in Winston Cup in your T-shirt. Does that mean they aren't racing?

Do you think Barney Oldfield, Bill Vukovich, Tazio Nuvolari, Juan Fangio, Glen Roberts or Junior Johnson would agree with your point of view? I doubt it.

Shifter karts require neither roll cages nor seat belts. Does that mean karting isn't racing? What about GP motorcycle racing? Bracket drag racing?

I believe some of the Super 7 drivers in Solo II are required to wear fire suits, but Paul K. isn't in his atomic Miata. Does that mean the Super 7 drivers are racing, but Paul isn't racing, even though he regularly beats them for FTD?:confused:

Oh, and to get back on topic, the reason I haven't given Solo I a try is $$$. The bar in my Miata is not SCCA legal and it would cost too much to replace it at this point. Gotta save up for Rs for Solo II next year.:D

[Chris P]

For those of you that have NEVER even competed in a SOLO 1 event before i think you better go do some research before opening your mouth and critize what SOLO 1 is. Why don't you come out and play, and we will see just what you got. Its a little harder to go fast when you don't have "the red mist". I know of lappers and regional racers who can't put a fast lap down if there life depended on it, some people just need a car to follow/chase. Its a little like cheating on a test..........


Perhaps you guys should get a little more "practice" in before you compete with the big boys that run SOLO 1. :mad:





Note to novices, SOLO 1 is a friendly place however as you will read, these message board comments can get outta hand. Don't take this thread as a indication of what SOLO 1 in ontario is like.

[GR8 Ride]

Originally posted by AlienDNA
Um, Nomex isn't required in NASCAR. You could, in theory, drive in Winston Cup in your T-shirt. Does that mean they aren't racing?

Uhh...better check your facts before you post crap. NASCAR absolutely requires NOMEX (or Proban) suits, and was the first sanctioning body to require HANS / Hutchins devices for all drivers as well. NASCAR's safety requirements actually stand head and shoulders above most racing series.

Originally posted by AlienDNA
Do you think Barney Oldfield, Bill Vukovich, Tazio Nuvolari, Juan Fangio, Glen Roberts or Junior Johnson would agree with your point of view? I doubt it.

Actually, they probably would. Just because they ran in an era where safety equipment wasn't required (or totally understood) doesn't mean they didn't view wheel to wheel racing as "real racing".

Originally posted by AlienDNA
Shifter karts require neither roll cages nor seat belts. Does that mean karting isn't racing? What about GP motorcycle racing? Bracket drag racing?

Again, taking something out of context. Open wheelers don't generally have specific roll cages either, but rather a tube frame structure to it, designed for impact protection. Shifter karts aren't terribly different, and shifter kart drivers are required to wear Nomex as well. My point remains the same....competing against the clock IS NOT RACING, it's a time trial. Outside of the qualifying session, I really don't give a rats ass about what my laptimes are. Where I finished in the race is what matters. Sorry, but racing involves passing, and I don't recall seeing much passing going on whenever I've attended a Solo 1 day.

Originally posted by AlienDNA
I believe some of the Super 7 drivers in Solo II are required to wear fire suits, but Paul K. isn't in his atomic Miata. Does that mean the Super 7 drivers are racing, but Paul isn't racing, even though he regularly beats them for FTD?:confused:

Again, see my point above. Until you actually go wheel to wheel racing either regionally, Club, or professionally, it's pretty hard to say much about it. I've been to several Solo 2 events, been to a few Solo 1 events, and have lapped for a number of years. Not a single one of them compares to the feeling of passing someone on the outside of turn 2 at Mosport, in the marbles, and trying to make the pass stick going into turn 3. Until you've actually done it, I don't think you're in much of a position to talk about it.

Like I said, none of this was meant to discourage the Solo 1 scene.... I merely posted my own opinions on why a number of lappers prefer the lapping environment over the Solo 1 environment. I merely made the point about *racing* because several "lappers" call themselves racecar drivers, simply because they've taken their street car to the track.

And this has gotten way off topic, because none of this will serve to help the Solo 1 crowd get an increase in participants year over year. Part of the problem with Solo 1 is simply this: perception. It's perceived that you get minimal track time for the amount of money spent, and that perception needs to be fixed. To this point, Solo 1 may be it's own worst enemy. The more competitors you have at any particular event means even less track time for each participant, and the cycle continues downward. It may be worthwhile to look at restructuring how the event is staged.

For example, instead of 3 or 4 sessions with 4 laps per driver, why not run two sessions of 10 - 15 laps, and fit a few more cars onto the track? The transition time from group to group would be reduced, and each driver would get the chance to actually warm up his/her tires / brakes (and blood stream) and have a better shot at a really hot lap.

Also, having the insurance to allow passing, at least for the open lapping sessions, would make the day more appealing to the 'open lapping' type crowd.

Now, on the positive note, some things about Solo 1 should be used as collateral for promoting the series. Even in regional racing, some guys (largely crew) go out purely for the camaraderie and social aspects of the weekend, and spend precious little time on the track. Sounds like the campfire chats in Solo 1 have a similar aspect to them, and believe it or not, work well in terms of getting people to come out and participate. Also, this forum, the general community nature of Solo 1 and the grassroots motorsport appeal of it should be promoted.

Don't get me wrong, I think Solo 1 should be applauded for giving people who aren't interested in tubbing out their car and welding in a roll cage the opportunity to compete (which I won't deny that Solo 1 is a great avenue for COMPETITION....). Part of it revolves around publicizing it more....were it not for Christian's involvement in it, it's unlikely I would have heard much about Solo 1. To be honest, the CASC hasn't done much to promote Solo 1 either, and that's an avenue that should be pursued as well.


Pat

[GR8 Ride]

Originally posted by Chris P
Perhaps you guys should get a little more "practice" in before you compete with the big boys that run SOLO 1. :mad:


Hmm....tough to leave this comment alone Chris...but you're a nice guy, so I won't jump too hard on you about it! :)

Again, I'm not knocking Solo 1....it's motorsports competition for the driver who can't / won't make the financial commitment to race regionally. Nothing wrong with that....not everybody can afford the dollars required to go wheel to wheel.

There are some guys running regionally who use *bizarre* lines around the track, but then again, with dozens of cars on the track, the line can often get thrown out the window. I've also seen more Solo 1 guys go off in a weekend than I have at regional weekends (one day last year at the DDT I watched a number of cars sailing off the track... dry but cool conditions).

Subsequently, there are also drivers running regionals who will hand the a$$ to nearly anybody in Solo 1...so saying that Solo 1 drivers are better than regional racers is really a waste of bandwidth. Having been on the track with 45+ other regional racers, there are some extremely good drivers out there, and some who are merely so-so. I suspect we could both say the same thing about Solo 1. Is one group of drivers any better than the other??? Nobody here can really make that statement, so the point is moot.

My point is that racing involves passing, being passed, competing for position, while also being aware of what's going on around you. All of this happens while subsequently trying to find your way around the track as quickly as possible. It's all the fast lap potential of Solo 1 combined with traffic....


Pat

[Nissan Racer]

Originally posted by TFGR
WTF are you talking about. Everyone in this thread said that they like competition....including Sam, the person you quoted! Your comments sound childish!



Well Lets see if I can keep this civil...hmm maybe not. My comments towards Maxrpm were in brackets, everything else was a general comment. If you took offense to this, I suggest you are either out of coffee and posted too early in the morning, or are just not that bright.
The comment stands true. If you do not realize that Solo is a very competitive series and don't consider it racing, well, too bad, you're missing out on alot.

[Nissan Racer]

Originally posted by maxrpm
It's competitive, but not the type of competition I like, Wheel to Wheel is to me is real competition and real racing and something that solo 1 will never be able to be compared with.

(fair enough, but then why are you on this forum?)

Lapping Days are not racing, but to me it's a lot closer to then Solo 1. Like I said I get great enjoyment out of being in a small group of friends lapping around the track. Like the video I posted a while back of me chasing a Supra, that was awsome to me and very close to racing, that is something that Solo 1 will never be able to offer me.

(I suggest you try Solo I, I have had a couple of great chases this year, one where Perry was catching me in his SpecV and one where I was chasing down Candace who was ahead of me all day in class, then started ahead of me in the last session, coming up over the hill past the timing shack and catching her before the turn at pit lane was pretty good racing to me.)

Everything you get from Solo 1 I can get at a lapping day and more. I've lapped at all the track you guys have gone to and more.

You and other have mentioned "the people" what like everyone ignores each other at lapping days? Where the hell are you lapping Afganistan?
(yes :D)




You make it sound like no one at Lapping Days have any skills, come and I will show you plenty of people that will hand you your ass.

(and I can show you alot of people with fast cars and poor skills that make do, even in regional racing, but with so many classes, its tough to do that in a solo event. Theres always someone with a car equally as fast, but more skills.)



WRONG, real wheel to wheel racing is the place to be.
(Again I must ask, if you are not interested in Solo at all, why are you posting here? I gotta think you are at least tempted to try it, otherwise you wouldn't be bothered posting on this thread. Come out and try an event or two, you might get hooked.)



This is real racing and competition to me, Right Click Save As (http://nsxfiles.s2ki.com/cs_pulp2.wmv)

[AlienDNA]

Originally posted by GR8 Ride
Uhh...better check your facts before you post crap. NASCAR absolutely requires NOMEX (or Proban) suits, and was the first sanctioning body to require HANS / Hutchins devices for all drivers as well. NASCAR's safety requirements actually stand head and shoulders above most racing series.

Sorry, I just was going by what NASCAR drivers Johnny Benson, Michael Waltrip and Ken Schrader stated on their show following the Earnhardt crash. According to them, NASCAR rules do not require fire retardant clothing. They must be mistaken.


Actually, they probably would. Just because they ran in an era where safety equipment wasn't required (or totally understood) doesn't mean they didn't view wheel to wheel racing as "real racing".

Sorry, again. Your point seemed to be that wheel to wheel wasn't the qualifying factor, but safety equipment is, hence your reversal on whether or not WRC was considered racing. Barney Oldfield first gained prominence running time trials for Henry Ford. Most of the drivers I mentioned also competed in hill climbs, and a couple even ran events like the Mille Miglia. Because of the lack of safety equipment and the running of "time trial" events, I doubt they would agree with you.

I don't think anyone in this discussion is suggesting that "wheel to wheel" competition isn't racing, but some have emphatically stated that it isn't racing unless it's wheel to wheel. I believe that some of the most famous racers in history would categorically disagree with that sentiment. Hard to prove without John Edwards' help, though...

Again, taking something out of context. Open wheelers don't generally have specific roll cages either, but rather a tube frame structure to it, designed for impact protection. Shifter karts aren't terribly different

Yes, I evidently missed the issue of 'Race Car Engineering' where shifter karts are now being built with carbon fibre tubs and tube frames protecting the driver from roll overs and cockpit intrusion...

and shifter kart drivers are required to wear Nomex as well. My point remains the same....competing against the clock IS NOT RACING, it's a time trial.

Well, actually, that was your original point until someone mentioned WRC. Then you stated:

You're not racing, if a full competition roll cage isn't required, and full safety gear isn't required (ie, full Nomex, harnesses etc). Sorry, but that's my point.

and

WRC requires full cages, full Nomex etc. Solo 1 doesn't.

At which point I took your point to be that time trials were also considered racing as long as you were required to wear fire retardant clothing and run a full cage. I guess I am mistaken.

Outside of the qualifying session, I really don't give a rats ass about what my laptimes are. Where I finished in the race is what matters. Sorry, but racing involves passing, and I don't recall seeing much passing going on whenever I've attended a Solo 1 day.

Beyond the cracks I could make about F1 lo' these past 10 years or so, does this mean you are now once again saying that WRC is NOT considered racing? What about Pike's Peak? Paris-Dakar?

Again, see my point above. Until you actually go wheel to wheel racing either regionally, Club, or professionally, it's pretty hard to say much about it.

You will note that I, in fact, didn't say anything about it. I in no way intended to question whether or not 'wheel to wheel' competition constituted racing. In fact, I couldn't agree more. What I was disagreeing with is your opinion that competition that doesn't involve 'wheel to wheel' action is not racing.

I've been to several Solo 2 events, been to a few Solo 1 events, and have lapped for a number of years. Not a single one of them compares to the feeling of passing someone on the outside of turn 2 at Mosport, in the marbles, and trying to make the pass stick going into turn 3.

I couldn't agree more...

Like I said, none of this was meant to discourage the Solo 1 scene....

Well okay then...

I merely posted my own opinions on why a number of lappers prefer the lapping environment over the Solo 1 environment. I merely made the point about *racing* because several "lappers" call themselves racecar drivers, simply because they've taken their street car to the track.

And that I would even tend to agree with. But telling other people that their form of motorsport is not racing because it isn't exactly like your form of motorsport isn't the way to win friends and influence people, if you know what I mean.

And this has gotten way off topic, because none of this will serve to help the Solo 1 crowd get an increase in participants year over year.

Agreed. And I generally agree with a lot of the stuff down below here, too.

Part of the problem with Solo 1 is simply this: perception. It's perceived that you get minimal track time for the amount of money spent, and that perception needs to be fixed. To this point, Solo 1 may be it's own worst enemy. The more competitors you have at any particular event means even less track time for each participant, and the cycle continues downward. It may be worthwhile to look at restructuring how the event is staged.

For example, instead of 3 or 4 sessions with 4 laps per driver, why not run two sessions of 10 - 15 laps, and fit a few more cars onto the track? The transition time from group to group would be reduced, and each driver would get the chance to actually warm up his/her tires / brakes (and blood stream) and have a better shot at a really hot lap.

Also, having the insurance to allow passing, at least for the open lapping sessions, would make the day more appealing to the 'open lapping' type crowd.

Now, on the positive note, some things about Solo 1 should be used as collateral for promoting the series. Even in regional racing, some guys (largely crew) go out purely for the camaraderie and social aspects of the weekend, and spend precious little time on the track. Sounds like the campfire chats in Solo 1 have a similar aspect to them, and believe it or not, work well in terms of getting people to come out and participate. Also, this forum, the general community nature of Solo 1 and the grassroots motorsport appeal of it should be promoted.

Don't get me wrong, I think Solo 1 should be applauded for giving people who aren't interested in tubbing out their car and welding in a roll cage the opportunity to compete (which I won't deny that Solo 1 is a great avenue for COMPETITION....). Part of it revolves around publicizing it more....were it not for Christian's involvement in it, it's unlikely I would have heard much about Solo 1. To be honest, the CASC hasn't done much to promote Solo 1 either, and that's an avenue that should be pursued as well.


Pat

[Nissan Racer]

Originally posted by maxrpm
As I've already said I am not bashing Solo 1 or 2. It's just not my thing and I've given my reasons why I choose lapping days over it. You can get defensive over it or you can take it as constructive criticism and try to improve upon it.

If I had the money I'd be racing wheel to wheel over lapping days, though I would probably still do lapping days for the track time.

How should you improve it?

- Get rid of the arrogance, as a bystander I see a lot of it here towards anything other then Solo, hell even between yourselves. A good example was the childish bashing of Drifting. I don't like Drifting but I thought it was really immature and probably turned off some potential new Solo recruits. We should be promoting and supporting all forms of motorsport, it benefits everyone as a whole.

(but Solo I is not real racing right? Only racing on the big track counts?)

- Swag for competitors, people like free things, hell I get T-Shirts at some of my lapping days.
(Yokohama tire draws? Solo T-shirts?)

- Cross promotion, start going to the import events and hand out flyers. Anyone promote at the Indy this year? Get some of the fans into it, I guarantee you that most of the population have no idea they can take their own car onto the track. How about an ad on AM640? or invite The Star to attend, they did a whole page article on lapping days, why not Solo? Add Motoring 200x to the invite list.

(I worked booths at many car shows for Solo and CASC this year, and at the Solo school and first event there was suposed to be a camera crew out)

- Get an audience, thus you can get some sponsorship. Start making it exciting to more then just the competitors.

I could come up with more but I'm at work....it's all easier said then done, but it needs to be done.

[DECH_92]

I think Solo 1 is great, real you and the grove adrenaline racing, but without enough
lapping before the events. 8.00 till 10.00 for lapping then event, no lunch more lapping.
I like it when there was a lapping day on the Fri day before the events to get used to the track
OMSC did not have any lapping days this year at all that really peeved me off big time, I am
probably going to switch to TAC this year cause of the lack of lapping days by the biggest and oldest club.
Dave B do you know why OMSC has decided not to do lapping days anymore?
I usually right of my first lap in the event cause I rather have my brakes and tires up to temp.
Not having at least a full lap to warm up sucks
And I still have a problem with the cars in the classes, It just does not seem right that weight is not a factor any more
2500 LB car verses 3000 plus
Weight rules or the lack of it.

[maxrpm]

Originally posted by Nissan Racer


Goggle brought me here when I was looking for "lapping events".

Sorry, I won't be taking part in Solo 1, when my budget and time allow me I will start racing again, something like the Sentra series.

Why do I post here? Because I love Motorsport and support it and because I've me a few of you guys at lapping days. If I am not welcome then I will make this my last post.

FWIW, Just because I don't compete and don't think it's real racing, I stil support Solo 1. Which is why I have your events listed on my "Calendar" on my website.

[Nissan Racer]

Originally posted by maxrpm
Goggle brought me here when I was looking for "lapping events".

Sorry, I won't be taking part in Solo 1, when my budget and time allow me I will start racing again, something like the Sentra series.

(LOL...uhh, if your budget is tight, I suggest something a little less $$$ than the Sentra series. Its a really great series, but it is not inexpensive, unless you happen to work in or own a body shop. But without a doubt it is the best wheel to wheel racing series in the region.)

Why do I post here? Because I love Motorsport and support it and because I've me a few of you guys at lapping days. If I am not welcome then I will make this my last post.

(Hmm I didn't suggest you weren't welcome, only that you might be posting here because you may actually want to try it.)

FWIW, Just because I don't compete and don't think it's real racing, I stil support Solo 1. Which is why I have your events listed on my "Calendar" on my website.

[CobraStang]

I think a forum is a place for people to express their views.

HOWEVER, is there really a need to go on and on? Whether Solo 1 is "real" racing or not doesn't really matter. The enthusiasts are trying to make their sport of choice more appealing to others, not bash other people's choice of sports.

It seems this "race" horse has been beaten to death...and...beaten some more... and...(I had to edit myself here).

Tonight when I pray before going to bed, right after I pray for a beer sale, I'm going to pray that this thread returns to a discussion on how to make Solo 1 more appealing. So far there's been 53 replies, and only a small number of constructive suggestions.

[GR8 Ride]

****************************************************
Sorry, I just was going by what NASCAR drivers Johnny Benson, Michael Waltrip and Ken Schrader stated on their show following the Earnhardt crash. According to them, NASCAR rules do not require fire retardant clothing. They must be mistaken.
****************************************************


NOMEX is now a full requirement of NASCAR, and has been (along with HANS devices) since the Earnhardt crash. Essentially all NASCAR drivers have been wearing NOMEX for years anyway, and about 40% of them were using HANS devices prior to them being mandated.


****************************************************
Sorry, again. Your point seemed to be that wheel to wheel wasn't the qualifying factor, but safety equipment is, hence your reversal on whether or not WRC was considered racing. Barney Oldfield first gained prominence running time trials for Henry Ford. Most of the drivers I mentioned also competed in hill climbs, and a couple even ran events like the Mille Miglia. Because of the lack of safety equipment and the running of "time trial" events, I doubt they would agree with you.

I don't think anyone in this discussion is suggesting that "wheel to wheel" competition isn't racing, but some have emphatically stated that it isn't racing unless it's wheel to wheel. I believe that some of the most famous racers in history would categorically disagree with that sentiment. Hard to prove without John Edwards' help, though...

****************************************************

Again, missing my point. It's not MERELY the inclusion of safety equipment OR roll cages that defines someone as *racing*.... Racing involves open passing, PLUS timed competition, plus all the sanctioned safety equipment etc, etc. I won't deny that Solo 1 is excellent COMPETITION, but I'll draw the line at calling it racing. My point about roll cages was specifically in regards to sedans / GT cars....open wheel cars (including shifter karts) may require a different set of safety equipment, but the track is still fully open for passing.

Even in WRC, passing is allowed should a faster car catch a slower car at any stage in the rally....though they are generally staged to try and avoid this.



****************************************************
Again, taking something out of context. Open wheelers don't generally have specific roll cages either, but rather a tube frame structure to it, designed for impact protection. Shifter karts aren't terribly different

Yes, I evidently missed the issue of 'Race Car Engineering' where shifter karts are now being built with carbon fibre tubs and tube frames protecting the driver from roll overs and cockpit intrusion...
****************************************************

Ok, now we're really losing you along the way here.... open wheeler doesn't mean F1 only. Try attending a weekend regional race, and see some of the F4, Formula V, F1200/F1600/F2000 cars running. Funny, no CF tubs there....

And yes, many shifter karts I've seen have had fully integrated frames designed to protect the driver from side impacts, given that all competing cars are coming in at the same level.


****************************************************
You're not racing, if a full competition roll cage isn't required, and full safety gear isn't required (ie, full Nomex, harnesses etc). Sorry, but that's my point.

and

WRC requires full cages, full Nomex etc. Solo 1 doesn't.

At which point I took your point to be that time trials were also considered racing as long as you were required to wear fire retardant clothing and run a full cage. I guess I am mistaken.
****************************************************

Yeah, you would be. You can't take any ONE piece of racing, and claim that ANY series running like that must automatically be considered racing.


****************************************************
Outside of the qualifying session, I really don't give a rats ass about what my laptimes are. Where I finished in the race is what matters. Sorry, but racing involves passing, and I don't recall seeing much passing going on whenever I've attended a Solo 1 day.

Beyond the cracks I could make about F1 lo' these past 10 years or so, does this mean you are now once again saying that WRC is NOT considered racing? What about Pike's Peak? Paris-Dakar?
****************************************************

To be honest, like the FIA, I consider WRC to be rallying, and not wheel to wheel RACING. Again, both are COMPETITION, but RACING and COMPETING aren't mutually inclusive. And despite the crack about F1, passing is very much still a part of F1. As to Pike's Peak, Paris-Dakar, or for that matter, OTC or the One Lap, I don't consider any of them anything more than Time Trial type competition.

****************************************************
And that I would even tend to agree with. But telling other people that their form of motorsport is not racing because it isn't exactly like your form of motorsport isn't the way to win friends and influence people, if you know what I mean.
****************************************************

Well, believe it or not, I'm not here to win friends and influence people. I'm just here to stir up the pot every now and then... :)



Pat

[CobraStang]

Consider the pot stirred!

Why don't you get your jollies at the following site:

http://labellecuisine.com/archives/soup/Mother's%20Mushroom%20Soup%20-%20Martha%20Stewart.htm

[ice/solo racer]

I don't get the solo1,2,rally,other timed events are not racing comments?My motorsports started with the fast motorcycle road racing school(top rider award)back in the early '90's-had a ball but with a new house being built there was no way to go racing bikes.
In '96 I started ice racing for that wheel to wheel thrill,6 seasons,1 class championship and placing very well in every class I ran despite NEVER having the HP to match the guys with cash.
So then I started solo 2 in basically 2000 when I needed something affordable to RACE in the summer,so I kinda did it backwards-did the wheel to wheel first.I can say for sure that soloing is racing,if someone is faster you lose-and thats just for one lap,not one lap of the race-so you'd better not make any mistakes EVER.Now who would you want beside you for a braking zone?the guy that hasn't had to deal with pressure every corner of every lap or the guy that has.
I take what ever form of motorsport I'm competiting in very seriously,and I can say for sure that when I'm waiting for my run in solo 2 there's nothing but focus on the task at hand.
Now that thats said,for my solo1 events next year the most important thing to me is perhaps the marshelling.Like I said I've only done the one solo1 this year but the amount of time spent in the infield was a bit much.I bring my wife and young son to events and it'll be no fun for them to spend the day by themselves as either I'll be in the car or in the field.

[AlienDNA]

Originally posted by ice/solo racer
I don't get the solo1,2,rally,other timed events are not racing comments?

And that's the great thing about motorsports, ain't it? Despite the fact that Pat and I disagree about what is and isn't racing, we all essentially agree that it's great fun to drive a car real fast, and it doesn't really matter whether you call it racing, gymkhana or magic fairy dancing (although I'd probably remove my license plates and wear one of those Mexican wrestling masks if it was called magic fairy dancing). After all, figure skating makes the sports pages, but rodeo never does. Go figure.

As for what would make Solo I more attractive to me:
1) Contingency money, especially for tires.
2) A street tire class.
3) Paddock girls.

P.S. - Speaking of Mexican wrestling masks, is anyone familiar with Strong Bad @ http://www.homestarrunner.com ? "Trogdor the Burninator" would be the ultimate name for a monster truck, which I also consider a form of racing. :D

[TFGR]

Originally posted by ctenche

I wonder though if we wouldn't get better information by posting a similar question on another board where people don't already compete in Solo 1. For example, what do the Solo 2 competitors think? What is holding them back from coming out to events?



Let me have 5-6 solo 1 runs, a "Licks" burger and pop for $30 and I'll come on out!

Mazda's really don't suck!:D

[AlienDNA]

Originally posted by GR8 Ride
Uhh...better check your facts before you post crap. NASCAR absolutely requires NOMEX (or Proban) suits, and was the first sanctioning body to require HANS / Hutchins devices for all drivers as well. NASCAR's safety requirements actually stand head and shoulders above most racing series.



What's that about checking facts?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/motorsports/nascar_plus/news/2001/08/16/rule_books/

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/motorsports/nascar_plus/news/2001/08/16/rules_sider/

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/motorsports/nascar_plus/news/2001/08/16/rules_comparison/


:rolleyes:

Oh, and before you start hemming and hawing about the date of the article, this is from NASCAR's current website:

"Rules and Guidelines
NASCAR issues five different Rule Books, each of which includes in its title reference to a particular NASCAR-sanctioned series. There is a 2001 NASCAR Rule Book for the NASCAR Winston Cup Series, a 2001 NASCAR Rule Book for the NASCAR Busch Series, Grand National Division, NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series, NASCAR Regional Touring Series and NASCAR Weekly Racing Series. Each NASCAR Rule Book is published exclusively for NASCAR members."

[ctheo]

I've competed in 2 Solo 1 events over the past 2 seasons.

I haven't been out to more events mainly because I don't have a car suitable for Solo 1. However, I'm very sure I could arrange a co-drive if I really wanted to come out to more events.

The reason I don't come out to more events is I don't perceive Solo 1 as a great value. I go to the track for seat time, camaraderie and competition in that order.

The Solo 1's I've attended didn’t offer enough lapping time (even though the track was available), I spent too much time marshalling, not enough time with by buddies. However I did get my fill of fair competition.

If the track was available for lapping first thing in the morning until the first car has to run, then again after the last car runs until dusk I'd feel I was getting a better value. If I was able to hang out with my friends rather then marshal I'd be happier.

The extra track time should be a relatively easy thing to offer. We just have to make it a necessity rather than a niceity.

We could hire marshals rather than expect the competitors to do the flag waving. I'd be willing to do without elaborate BBQ's to cover the expense of the hired help. I'd even be willing to pay an extra few bucks so I didn't have to marshal, as long as more lapping time was part of the package too.

Oh and everyone should bring something highly flamable for the campfire, even if you're not camping. If you're camping it can be both flamable and caustic.

Hope this helps, hope I can get into a car suitable for Solo 1 and I hope we figure out exactly what type of underwear is necessary in NASCAR.

[John Hannaford]

Is it true that the longer the quote is, the more banal the retort? Or is it just that the various World's Champions that hang out here are in a total posted words competition? A truly childish display, gentlemen.

Dave,

Dare I suggest that we need more weekends but fewer timed laps? Hybridize the experience with half the day devoted to OT lapping and testing. That would increase the seat time and that will pay off in better drivers and better setups. Then we could run two afternoon timed sessions, targeting no mandatory use of drivers for marshalling, even if we have to offer perks or honorariums or points to get warm bodies. That should leave plenty of time in the morning for all the bureaucracy to run concurrently with the open sessions, without demanding a 3 AM registration start, or whatever ungodly hour it currently is. It would leave time for people to arrive from their distant homes without a similarly early start, if they don't mind skipping the morning OT opportunities - and perhaps we could offer a reduced fee to them if they decide that in advance? Then an afternoon of competition for all the hard chargers and the less committed. I'd be a lot more inclined to return next year if I thought I could get enough laps to improve as a driver when I have a full day and the previous evening free, and yet also have the option of leaving at a decent time to make it to Shannonville or TMP to compete for points when I don't. If that were possible, I could have attended some of this year's events!

Other than that, a class for Cobras to play against each other, with their single roll hoops and on street tires, might scare up enough interest to get these guys out for a series. I've been told that if they need to trailer, install cages and buy race tires, they just aren't interested. It would take a special ruling, but it should at least be considered. I hear those P cars like to run in packs too. Perhaps some challenge classes based on marques - particularly the ones that aren't showing up? They could be separate internally competing classes or concurrent classes using relative general class performances to generate points for an intra-mural championship. It might give the guys who've already bought part of the fantasy a reason to come out. What P-car driver wouldn't want "2004 Ontario Porsche Solo 1 Champion" hanging on his mantle? We could market that directly to the clubs. You'd have to guard against the nobs that would try to buy championships with factory race cars in an internalized class, but the intramural one would just be a matter of the right formula, since the classification scheme has worked so well in making the existing classes internally competitive. I'm sure that there are other problems that would have to be worked out. No worries. The classification committee did such a great job this year, they should be trivial challenges for the likes of them.

And no, Chris and Rob, this isn't the hotel bar Martinis talking. They're just facilitating.

[Dave Barker]

Well folks , thanks for all the replies and is such short order too!

Seems that people would like more lapping time, prizes and less marshalling duties all for a lower price. Wouldn't we all love that ?...but this is obviously not going to happen without a huge injection of sponsorship $. Any suggestions??

It may be hard to balance the more lapping folks with the people who want to maximize competition.

My original question was how to get more lappers out to Solo 1 events. Maybe some compromise with more lapping in the morning might work. There wasn't much response to the suggestion of a Solo 1 organized lapping day at the Mosport GT track.

Now for some comments on the side discussions
1) Sorry John but after the CCC has spent a lot of effort to decrease the # of classes I can't imagine having extra marque specific classes for people that have traditionally avoided Solo 1.

2) Greg. OMSC did have a lapping day at the DDT on the Easter long wkend which was moderately well attended due to good weather. We tried to pick up other lapping days but they were all taken up by other lapping groups !!! (hence the origins of this post)

3) to you folks who think THE only racing is wheel to wheel; Solo 1 is different. In solo 1 the competition is against the track. In wheel to wheel it is against the other guy. As Dave Pratte has said ( although I think he is quoting me) Solo 1 is more of a pure driving experience with far fewer excuses for not winning. You know the ones the W2W guys use, " I was blocked; that slower car had more power so I couldn't pass him; there was a yellow flag in the corner I was set up to pass in ; somebody spilt oil /water on the track etc..... Remember that few racers acheive their qualifying speeds in a race and that in Solo 1 we are essentially qualifying.

That being said I would love to try W2W but I would have to quadruple(or more) my budget and spend my time driving around on the street in my tow vehicle ( and as John Hannaford will tell you, I HATE SUVs). So it doesn't matter which is better. They may both be types of fruit but they are apples and oranges. Solo 1 is cheaper than W2W. more expensive than Solo 2 and much more intense than lapping. Personallly I would like W2W . Solo 1 and Lapping to be on the books for me every wkend but I can't afford the divorce.

[Dave]

Personallly I would like W2W . Solo 1 and Lapping to be on the books for me every wkend but I can't afford the divorce.

Hah! Well said, Dr. Dave!

I think perhaps the one easily integrated suggestion in this thread is that we should look at extending morning lapping and doing away with lunch hour and/or end-of-day lapping. This does make good sense to me, since this is truly the time of day when competitors want to get some practice in (ie. before they do any timed runs).

I also like Theo's suggestion of dropping the BBQ (or at least simplifying it) so that we can hire marshals. Or at the very least we should seriously look at ways of streamlining the marshaling experience for our competitors. Sending more than 2 marshals to any one station is redundant and always annoyed the hell out of me. I know more than a few potential competitors who don't come out to Solo 1 because they hate the fact that so much of their time is spent marshaling. We could even make the BBQ's a host club responsibility, meaning each club will have to decide if they want to take on the cost of of having a BBQ during the weekends they're running (or find sponsors to cover the costs) and use the money we've traditionally set aside for this to pay marshals instead. Food for thought :p

We also need umbrella girls.

Cheers,
Dave

[Chris P]

The problem with having alot of open lapping in the morning is clearly evident. Think about all the unforseen stuff that happens, delays caused by rollovers, poor organization, timing, rain etc etc. At one event this year we just barely completed 3 full runs, actually it ran a little past the 5pm dead line. If the morning lapping was extended by another hour then there would have been a 0% chance that last run group would have ran there final stint making the event NULL. Since 3 timed runs for every run group must occur to make an event valid, ofcourse that rule could always be changed.....


There is a reason why stuff is done the way is it, perhaps some things do need to be changed(ex: MARSHALLING needs a huge overall) however this season has been around for what, 20, 30 years allowing history to be the teacher.

[GR8 Ride]

Originally posted by AlienDNA
What's that about checking facts?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/motorsports/nascar_plus/news/2001/08/16/rule_books/

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/motorsports/nascar_plus/news/2001/08/16/rules_sider/

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/motorsports/nascar_plus/news/2001/08/16/rules_comparison/


:rolleyes:

Oh, and before you start hemming and hawing about the date of the article, this is from NASCAR's current website:

"Rules and Guidelines
NASCAR issues five different Rule Books, each of which includes in its title reference to a particular NASCAR-sanctioned series. There is a 2001 NASCAR Rule Book for the NASCAR Winston Cup Series, a 2001 NASCAR Rule Book for the NASCAR Busch Series, Grand National Division, NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series, NASCAR Regional Touring Series and NASCAR Weekly Racing Series. Each NASCAR Rule Book is published exclusively for NASCAR members."

/Thread hi-jack on/

Check the 2002 regulations, which require both NOMEX / PROBAN, and a HANS device. All of your articles (SI ones included) are from 2001.

I agree, NASCAR used to be very lacking in safety standards (so was F1 10 years ago as well....watch some of the classic F1 races from the early 90's). Public opinion and driver pressure has forced NASCAR to adopt some of the stricter safety standards all of a sudden. Hence the new safety barriers etc...


Pat


/thread hi-jack off/

[GR8 Ride]

Originally posted by Dave
Hah! Well said, Dr. Dave!

I think perhaps the one easily integrated suggestion in this thread is that we should look at extending morning lapping and doing away with lunch hour and/or end-of-day lapping. This does make good sense to me, since this is truly the time of day when competitors want to get some practice in (ie. before they do any timed runs).

We also need umbrella girls.

Cheers,
Dave

To get really good umbrella girls means you need the Ferrari crowd to come out.... :) The rest of the schools / regional weekends just don't get the high quality pit-fluff that the Ferrari schools do....

If the entire morning of a Solo 1 day was dedicated to open lapping, with 1 or 2 runs in the afternoon (I'd also prefer more laps than just 3 hot laps....), for the same price as it currently stands, I'd be more tempted to come out.

I also think choice of tracks plays a part in all of this as well. Obviously Mosport (GP track) is out of the budget for Solo 1, as you'd require ambulances, tow vehicles, marshalls etc, and it's a tough slug to afford. But, how about less events on Nelson, and more on Fabi and/or Cayuga? I know myself and lot of other people who really can't be bothered to drive 2+ hours to run on a track that's less than a minute around. No amount of lapping makes Nelson worthwhile....

I'd also agree on the marshalling detail. For people to have to marshall means they're sacrificing some of their weekend to work...albeit at the track. I still believe that a large number of people enjoy this sport because of the social aspect; working on their cars together, general discussions and shooting the breeze etc.

To be honest, I'd be more interested in coming out at $150 per day if I didn't have to marshall, and I got some decent lapping time in each morning (say 3 full hours of open track each morning).


Pat

[GR8 Ride]

Originally posted by Dave Barker
3) to you folks who think THE only racing is wheel to wheel; Solo 1 is different. In solo 1 the competition is against the track. In wheel to wheel it is against the other guy. As Dave Pratte has said ( although I think he is quoting me) Solo 1 is more of a pure driving experience with far fewer excuses for not winning. You know the ones the W2W guys use, " I was blocked; that slower car had more power so I couldn't pass him; there was a yellow flag in the corner I was set up to pass in ; somebody spilt oil /water on the track etc..... Remember that few racers acheive their qualifying speeds in a race and that in Solo 1 we are essentially qualifying.

/Thread hi-jack on AGAIN/

Dave,

So, how many weekends have you been running W2W in which you've heard these excuses from someone? Funny, that doesn't come up in a regional race weekend....nobody says "I was blocked", or "that slower car had more power" etc. These are all factors in RACING, and not excuses why we couldn't turn a faster lap. INDIVIDUAL LAPTIMES DON'T MEAN SQUAT IN A WHEEL TO WHEEL RACE!

In fact, if anything, faster laps are turned during the race than are turned during the qualifying session(s), mostly due to the heat of battle.

Also, the comment about W2W being against other drivers, and not the track is wrong. You're competing with both....because the other drivers have the same objective as you, and may often be in the spot on the track that you're trying to occupy. How well do you think you'd do if the apex of every corner was coned off at a Solo 1 event? W2W is also about how to turn fast laps while OFF the school line, which is more often than not.

In the end, it's all about opinions, and I stated mine simply in an earlier post about this. Several people here chose to jump all over my ONE comment and defend their sport, and I can't fault them for that. However, just because it's YOUR opinion, or MY opinion, doesn't make either of us right, or wrong; just merely individuals.

It's like the age old Porsche argument. Purists believe that it can't be a Porsche if it's not an air-cooled engine. Same for me...in my purist mind, it's not racing if it's not wheel to wheel. It's my opinion, and whether it's right or wrong is again, irrelevant. Nobody has come up with any arguments as to why I should change my mind, and in the end, we'll just agree to disagree on this one.

The saddest part of this is that several people who have responded with comments about regional race weekends, and that we're not competing with the track, or that we have excuses as to why we can't turn fast laps. Yet NONE of them have gone W2W.... in fact, I don't think I've even seen any of you out at a regional weekend as spectators.

There is a great weekend coming up to see some excellent regional racing, and to get a feel for what it's really like. The BEMC / Grand Am Cup weekend is this weekend at Mosport, and the Touring car group will be there, the GT Sprints, the Sentra series, along with some of the *big* cars in the Grand Am Cup. Feel free to come down, hang out with us, and see that not all the regional racers are a$$holes like me :)

Seriously, come out this weekend, and see that we're not guys who make excuses for why we lost a race, or why we couldn't turn quicker laps.


Pat

[AlienDNA]

Originally posted by John Hannaford
Is it true that the longer the quote is, the more banal the retort? Or is it just that the various World's Champions that hang out here are in a total posted words competition? A truly childish display, gentlemen.



Sorry, John, but I can't just let that slide.

It may have been unproductive to hijack this particular thread, but I don't think it is 'banal' or 'childish' for a group of like-minded motorsports enthusiasts to engage in a reasoned, frank debate about the philosophical meaning of 'racing' in a 'General Discussion' forum without resorting to profanity or name calling. You were the only one to pull the ad hominem club out of the bag, to which I only have one thing to say: I know you are, but what am I (no backsies)?;)

[AlienDNA]

Originally posted by GR8 Ride
/Thread hi-jack on/

Check the 2002 regulations, which require both NOMEX / PROBAN, and a HANS device. All of your articles (SI ones included) are from 2001.

I agree, NASCAR used to be very lacking in safety standards (so was F1 10 years ago as well....watch some of the classic F1 races from the early 90's). Public opinion and driver pressure has forced NASCAR to adopt some of the stricter safety standards all of a sudden. Hence the new safety barriers etc...


I would check the 2002 regs, but I can't seem to find a publicly available copy anywhere. The best I can find is the 2003 NASCAR Late Model regs, courtesy the folks at Irwindale. This is what they state on the issue:

(b) Protective Clothing:

(1) It is recommended that at all times, the driver wears a driving suit and gloves of fire resistant material that effectively covers the body.

(2) It is recommended that the driver’s suit be of the best quality fire protection available.

(3) It is also recommended that during an event, practice, or qualifying a driver wears the following: Fire Resistant Shoes and Socks, Fire Resistant Hood, Fire Resistant Underwear.

(d) Helmets; Head and Neck Restraint Devices:

(1) Snell SA2000 or newer helmet required.

(2) Full face helmets with Lexan face shield recommended.

(3) Nomex Helmet Skirt and Nomex covered chinstrap recommended.

(4) It is recommended that all drivers wear a HANS or Hutchens head and neck restraint device.

I'm willing to concede that the Winston Cup rules may be different, but I haven't seen any evidence that NASCAR does more than recommend - not require - fire protection or HANS devices for the drivers. It is, of course, a moot point since I doubt that any driver would be foolish enough to take to the track without the best protection available.

I don't believe, however, that requiring high levels of safety equipment has anything to do with describing an activity as racing. I would wager that there are parts of the world where careening around a dirt track in clapped out FIATs or Ladas with little more than a golf shirt and a belly full of rum is a weekly occurrence. I'd still consider that racing, despite the folly of it.

I really hate to get pedantic, but let's move away from the minutae of the NASCAR regulations and let the dictionaries weigh in.

The American Heritage dictionary defines race as "Sports.
A competition of speed, as in running or riding.
races A series of such competitions held at a specified time on a regular course: a fan of the dog races.".

Websters defines race (The Verb) as "\Race\, v. t. 1. To cause to contend in race; to drive at high speed"

Princeton's WordNet defines the term as "n 1: any competition; "the race for the presidency" 2: a contest of speed; "the race is to the swift"

It seems, therefore, that Solo I/II are, by definition, racing. There is no qualification about competing head-to-head or required safety equipment. The only two requirements seem to be (1) competition and (2) speed. I think that Solo I more than satisfies these two requirements.

All that being said, do I, as a Solo II competitor consider myself a "race car driver"? Heck, no. For one thing, I don't have a race car. I just have my daily driver with some magnetic decals. Do I consider what I do on the weekends to be racing? Heck, yes. I engage in constests of speed to drive a defined course in less time that other people for the purpose of being ranked. To me, that is all that is required to be considered racing.

[Nissan Racer]

Originally posted by GR8 Ride
/Thread hi-jack on AGAIN/

Dave,


The saddest part of this is that several people who have responded with comments about regional race weekends, and that we're not competing with the track, or that we have excuses as to why we can't turn fast laps. Yet NONE of them have gone W2W.... in fact, I don't think I've even seen any of you out at a regional weekend as spectators.



Pat

Well since I crew for Perry I. I think I have a pretty good idea what goes on at a regional weekend, since Perry runs in GT sprints, Touring car (currently 3rd) and AFSSC (currently 5th) and Robb is leading GT-D
Hey wait...they are both Soloists...I wonder how they got so good if they've never RACED before?

[ADAM]

some good suggestions have been made....

i like the 10-15 lap idea...we waste tons of time switching between groups

also the idea of more lapping....and passing during lapping....that is a GREAT idea....

no bbq's trade for paid marshalls....GREAT idea...

how bout we save TONS of money and instead of having a banquet...we all just go to a resturant and pay for our own dinners.... i think from looking at the previous solo 1 budgets that would save alot of money....


he he...we are also forgetting one BIG thing...we are basically in a race series that is run like the MAFIA with CASC as our "protectors" and we all have to pay "CASC protection fees"...where as none of the people setting up lapping have to ...this is a big point...

[CobraStang]

10-15 laps at a time looks good on paper. However, can you guess how many times we'll need to throw the yellow flag? For it to work, you'd need to be real precise about gridding, and run fewer cars on course at one time. We'd probably still save some time.

Also, some cars may not be able to handle that many flat out laps in one session. Brakes on a daily driver may be particularly susceptible to expiring prior to a complete 15 lap session.

The last Saturday at TMP did provide us with loads of morning lapping, close to two hours I think. We lost more time due to other issues; it just wasn't a great day for car and driver. I'd rather not lose a session, but a trade in on some lapping time might be tempting.

How about charging $8 for a sausage at the BBQ and hiring some pro umbrella girls? (droool)

[Logan]

Or invite Hooters to provide the BBQ.

[GR8 Ride]

Originally posted by AlienDNA
Sorry, John, but I can't just let that slide.

It may have been unproductive to hijack this particular thread, but I don't think it is 'banal' or 'childish' for a group of like-minded motorsports enthusiasts to engage in a reasoned, frank debate about the philosophical meaning of 'racing' in a 'General Discussion' forum without resorting to profanity or name calling. You were the only one to pull the ad hominem club out of the bag, to which I only have one thing to say: I know you are, but what am I (no backsies)?;)

I have to agree with Eric on this one. While it might seem spirited and somewhat heated, it is after all, just a debate. If we had this discussion in person, it probably would have taken a few hours and many beers to agree to disagree on it.

Besides, nearly every online forum starts on a particular topic, and as people make comments or suggestions, other topics of interest or debate come up. It's the natural progression of conversation, which is essentially what this is.

In the end, it's a moot point. Just because I don't view it as racing doesn't mean that others can't, and just because others view it as racing doesn't mean I have to.

As to comments from Nissan_Racer, well, again, since you haven't been the one to make any comments about what *excuses* regional racers come up with because they didn't get a quick lap, then it's not really directed at you.

I do however, object to the implication that has come up that Solo 1 is more of a 'pure driver's sport' than W2W racing. In regionals, you're competing against other cars, drivers, yourself, and the track. You have all the factors you have in Solo 1, plus a whole bunch more. It really is a whole different beast.


Pat

[John Hannaford]

My deepest apologies Alien and GR8. Thank you for gently correcting me when my harsh comments clearly justified a rebuke in much stronger language. My impression that much of this was a sophomoric, nit-picking, dictionary-quoting, off-topic pissing contest, was clearly incorrect and completely unfounded. Offering my assessment of it as such in such a hurtful and aggressive fashion was wrong and compounded the error. I'm glad that generosity and respect for other readers still rule here, and that you were willing to forgive my transgression with such wit and humour. I look forward to poring over many more pages of this stimulating exchange. Consider me a new fan. I hope the rest of you can extend similar consideration, despite my poor claim on it.



Dave,

Sorry to go so far off-topic on you, but it's hard to separate the means to entice new participants from the means to solicit alumni to return. It all forms a value package that doesn't seem to attractive enough if it's just based on close competition. I'm with you on the separate marque classes. They'd be very hard to implement at best and I won't push this any further. However, we should keep the difference between methods and goals in mind. The second suggestion on an intra-mural marque based award wouldn't require any on-track changes at all. In fact we could generate one for this year based on the existing results. An overall Honda Champion or Pig-Iron V8 champion might be fun to calculate too. It's in the same vein as the club championship - mining the results for a new way to stimulate interest.

I'm glad you opened this discussion and I'm heartened by the willingness to consider changing the event mix. Responding to the market is the key in almost every venture.

By the way, you didn't happen to be in New Mexico last week, did you? Not that the FBI asked, or anything like that.

[Civic13]

We have had this same debate in Quebec, mainly last year and because the club was on the edge of financial ruin (thanks in great part to the insurance price hike). We handed out a survey at the end of year banquet and found out that out biggest problem was lack of track time. We had been doing a 8-10 minute warmup then 4x4 laps of competition. It was hard to compete with lapping days. So in 2002, we decided to have several school days, which were essentially lapping days with mandatory instructors for beginners. Borrowing a concept I had found on the web, we divided members into A, B and C groups. A would run for 20 minutes at 10:00, 11:00, 1:00, 2:00, etc. B at 10:20, etc... C at 10:40... This gave people alot more track time, but many then missed the competition aspect! 2002 was not a good year financially. So basically, we hybridized the events. Now all events are competitive events. From 10-12:00, we use the A-B-C system to give people more track time. You are guranteed 40 minutes of track time before the event. We don't round up the A's or B's, we just tell them "These are your minutes, show up and use them, or miss out." These sessions are open pit and passing is allowed only in one designated zone (a straightaway). This has been our system in 2003 and people seem to like it. It's still less track time than a lapping day, but it's still a competition. People tend to behave very well during these sessions, as we give one warning (for a spin, for example) and then you're out for the day (no timed laps!). We have had a record turnout this year, although still much less than Solo 2 or even Solo 1 in Ontario. Also, we pay oour flaggers 80$ for the day or 40$ for the 1/2 day, plus lunch. Our members appreciate this too. Of course, our popularity this year is due to other reasons as well, but the format surely isn't hurting.

Vincent Basile
President, LAPS Solo 1

[Carguy]

Great discussion thread guys! Here is my 2 cents.

By most standards I am considered a Solo 1/lapping newbie. Having attended some lapping sessions (4) and after some discussions with Solo 1 competitors, I decided it would be fun to try a few events. So far I haven't been able to make the commitment in time and money but I consider it only a matter of time before I take the plunge.

I must say that the pros and cons discussed in this thread have effectively convinced me not to register for a full Solo 1 series championship next year. My rationale: at best I will only have time for register for 7 or 8 events. Since I have a lot to learn, I will also need to gain a lot of seat time before I can be competitive. As a result I would prefer to select only 3-4 solo 1 events to feed my competitive spririt and to attend another 3-4 lapping sessions to work on my driving skills.

So how do you get lapping event drivers out to Solo 1 events? Design a Solo 1 championship exclusively for "casual" drivers and join the digital age with online registration. To me the decision to attend Solo 1 events would be easier to make if there is no commitement to an entire series. Plus if I could register online then it's even easier. Casual drivers who don't register for the full Solo 1 series in the spring could compete in a "best single event" championship. Competitors could register online at their leasure up to a few days before the event (perhaps even pay fees by credit card) and submit any signed waivers and/or forms on the day of the event.

Note that drivers registered for the full series championship would not be eligible for the "best single event" championship so that newbies like myself would have more of a chance to place or even win. I believe this may also encourage more drivers to extend their friendly lapping event duels to Solo 1 events. The bottom line is that what attaracts the hard core Solo 1 driver to an event is somewhat different from the casual driver.

By extending the "no-long-term-commitment-required" feature of lapping events to Solo 1 it might be possible to recruit more drivers to register for the series if and when they get bit by the Solo 1 bug. If not, at least more competitors would show up for Solo 1 events.

Cheers!

[ctenche]

I like Vicent's idea. It reminds me of how WOSCA used to run their lapping/Solo 1 days at Waterford Hills. Morning lapping followed by timed laps in the afternoon.

[Keith-02Accord]

Originally posted by Logan
Or invite Hooters to provide the BBQ.


Now that is the smartest thing I've read on this thread :D

[Dave]

My impression that much of this was a sophomoric, nit-picking, dictionary-quoting, off-topic pissing contest

Hey! I resemble that remark! :D Thanks for joining the party in your own special way, John...

Vicent, thanks very much for your update on the situation in Quebec. I personally like the 'hybridized' format you've gone to this year and a similar formula might help boost attendance numbers in Ontario. There is a very tricky balance involved, as you're well aware, between the competition aspect and the track time desires of our competitors. With the 50ish drivers we get per event, it might be tough to go with 2 hours of morning lapping due to the concerns ChrisP has already pointed out. Nevertheless, it's certainly worth consideration IMO.

Carguy, we are in fact working on an online registration system and if things go as planned it'll be up and running well before the beginning of next season. Your 'best single event' championship idea is an intriguing one, and it fits in very nicely with the constructive comments made by John regarding mining the results for new ways to stimulate interest in the series. Good stuff guys!

Personally, I've always thought it made sense to extend each timed lapping session by at least a few more laps, since the cost in time is minimal as long as the gridding is accurate (something we've done a MUCH better job with this season, btw). I don't think we could achieve anything near 10-15 laps per session due to time constraints and the number of competitors we attract per event, but I think we could at least extend it to 5x4 or 6x4 format instead of our current 4x4 format (though we actually only get 3 timed laps per session, with 1 warm-up lap and a 1 cool-down lap).

FYI, I will print the on-topic suggestions from this thread so that we've got them on-hand at the Solo 1 Workshop on November 1st. The workshop has traditionally been focused on rulebook and classification issues, but there's no reason why we can't discuss these sorts of organizational and packaging issues as well, as long as Christian is cool with it.

Cheers,
Dave

[exST165]

As a newbie who has competed in a Solo I driver training day (in 1998), a single Solo I competion, a private lapping day last year, and three Solo II events this year I would like to make the following observations:

(IMHO) while Solo I was a much bigger rush and provides much more 'track' time than Solo II, it:
1. beats on the car far far worse,
2. has a much higher (perceived or otherwise) risk factor - hence the rush,
3. is much more inconvienient to participate in

To elaborate on point 3 - look at the Solo II calendar I figure I could compete in a Solo II style event almost every Saturday and Sunday all season long! Some of these events are 10-20 minutes away, a far cry from the 2 hour hike out to Mosport etc. The Solo I calendar is very restrictive in comparison, before the season started I scratched out half the events because of other committments, and on top of that I won't get away with spending an entire weekend at the track. Given that almost all the events are entire weekends that cut down my potential season to a handfull of events. Compare the flexibility and choice available to the Solo II competitor to the Solo I competitor being pressured to register at the open house to ensure a spot at their choice events!

While I'm sure there is a very good reason why Solo I events are organzied back to back over an entire weekend, I would personally much prefer to see 12 or so events spread out every other weekend (for a single day at a time) across the entire summer. Electronic registration or what have you won't do much good if the events are either full or on weekends you can't make.


I would like to make one more observation - several pages ago a statistic was given about the number of newbie to veteran participants registerd, I think it was about 40 to 60. I don't care to flip through pages of banter about nomex or the 'reality' of the racing to get it exact. My point is: how many of those 40 or so newbies are going to be back next year? It is great that you have so much new blood, but what happens if they get so frustrated after a single season they never come back? What happens if your 60 veterans are almost all the same people year after year and there is a revolving door of newbies? Food for thought.

As a newbie I have to say that this sport is extremely intimidating! The driver training days are a great start, but the learning curve is steep and if the few people that I met at them don't show up at the next event I'm pretty much SOL and going to be sitting in my lawn chair alone trying to figure out how come some old guy in an identical car to mine just posted a run six seconds faster than me.

A mentoring program would be great - until then my plan is talk to Wes, Hanif and now Patick as much as possible when I see them and hope they don't tell me to get lost.


Thomas

[ctheo]

Good point about the banquet Adam. I know the discussion has come up before and quite a few people could do without the banquet. Or rather they'd pay out of pocket for the banquet rather than have it funded (or subsidized) by Solo 1.

I would rather see the money that is spent on banquet prizes and such spent on improving the sport. Stuff like paid marshals or more events on the longer tracks or even some prizes at the events.

I like the idea of awards avalible for newbies or casual competitors. Perhaps competitors that know they aren't running the series could chose to be identified somehow so they can compair themselves to other newbies or casual comptitiors. Maybe we could reserve car numbers 900-999 for this purpose so we can sort them at the end of the day. Awards can be given out for most improved, fastest lap, most consistant ect. Anything to make people feel like they accomplished something and want to come back for more.

[GR8 Ride]

So, how about splitting the difference in terms of time.

Instead of a 4x4 lap session, with 3 minimum required to qualify, how about a 2 session minimum (this still gives you a backup time), and run 8x3 sessions (plus 1 warm-up and 1 cool-down).

This, combined with moving the afternoon lapping session to the morning as a practice session (with restricted passing, standard school rules for example) might help the lack of track time perception.

Then, perhaps either paid duty for marshalls who work the full day instead of the BBQ, and make it a BYOF dinner (or BBQ for that matter).

You could also use the morning sessions as a 'semi-school' environment, in which rookies / novices are encouraged to come out, and have an instructor assigned to them for the morning.

Also, in giving it some thought, you may want to create a street tire class (I know, I hate adding additional classes as well, but....). Any new guys that come out are going to be easily discouraged by the fact that they're just not competitive without R-Compounds or slicks. Either that, or to classify R's / Slicks as performance upgrades, and include them in the classification system (I know this was discussed during the winter and discounted, but again.....).


Pat

[ctenche]

I don't know about the street tire thing. If someone wants to come out for 1 or 2 events and run on their street tires then fine, they won't be competitive against guys with R-compounds. They're only there for two events so what does it matter from the perspective of competing in the series?

If however, you guys bonsus points (a la solo 2) for running street tires, then the whole thing can end up being more expensive than buying a dedicated set of R compounds. Have you looked at the price of a really good street tire? It's insane. We'll end up back at the drawing board in that in that the guy running his OE tires will not be able to compete against a guy who spent the big $$$ on the the BFG KDs or whatever the latest hot street tire is.

Classifying R's as performance upgrades doesn't seem to make sense either as I do believe each and every solo 1 competitor runs on R's. Not sure what the point would be.

[Dave]

Caius eluded to this earlier, but I think we should consider who our customers are and where new ones are most likely to come from. Personally, I don't think we're going to attract too many hardcore lappers because we'll never be able to offer the same amount of track time as a lapping day, nor do I think we'll attract many road racers because they've got the means and the cars to participate in wheel to wheel racing and are accustomed to the big tracks. I think our largest pool of potential Solo 1 competitors is actually from the Solo 2 ranks, which have swelled remarkably the last few years thanks to the efforts of guys like Robb and Wes. Many regional Solo 2's have had over 100 competitors the last few seasons and if we can attract some of these guys to Solo 1, which is many ways is a logical progression from Solo 2 for those drivers who want more speed, I think we'd see some renewed growth in our discipline. This being the case, it would make sense (again, something Caius already suggested) to start a thread in the Solo 2 forum about what we can do to attract more of them to our series (though I think in many cases the primary barrier is cost and there isn't a lot we can do there).

exST165 makes some very good points about novice retention rates and competitor turn-over, both issues we've discussed in some detail at the Solo 1 Committee level during the last few seasons. The series organizers are well aware of our successes and failures in terms of customer retention rates in the veteran, newcomer, and novice categories, and this year it has actually been our veteran competitors who haven't come out in the numbers they tended to in the past. We've had excellent novice turn-out this year and over the past 5 years, but for whatever reason we haven't seen some of our veterans come out consistently and we've also seen higher than normal turn-over of newcomers with 1-3 years of participation in the series under their belts. There is, of course, some turn-over to be expected since people move, take on other hobbies, go through life-changes that prevent them from spending their money at the track (ie. lots of guys in HADA are buying housing, starting families, etc. and this has prevented some of them from participating in Solo 1 to the extent they might otherwise), or move on to other forms of motorsports. Nevertheless, we do need to find ways to retain our veterans and newcomers as well as continue to attract as many novices as possible. But I think the nature of the niche Solo 1 fills, in between Solo 2 and Road Racing on an affordability and risk scale, means we're going to see high turn-over rates at times, particularly when the economy is as unpredictable as it's been the last few years.

[JGraves]

I've been reading this with much interest as I agree with some points and completely disagree with others.

- Marshalling (take 1) - I don't mind the fact that I have to marshall but I would like to reduce the amount of time I spend there each day. Two people per station is ideal, one can be either busy or lonely while 3 or more is unnecessary. 1.5 hours at a station is ok, much more than 2 can get tiring.
- Radios - Solo 1 should really buy a good set of radios. We've had far to many radio problems this year. Headsets for all would be nice but we only really require one for the starter.
- Banquet - I go to (from Ottawa) and enjoy the banquet but there are far too many and too expensive door prizes. I don't know what the banquet budget looks like and sponsers donating door prizes are great but Solo Ontario should not be paying anything for door prizes.
- Entry Fees - Entry fees are a very small part of my budget and a 50% change would not affect the number of events I do. However... Entry fee is a huge factor in the preceived cost of competing. Our entry fees are approaching that of a regional race weekend. Solo 2 is a fraction of the cost. I think we have to be in the $60 to $75 dollar per event (day) range to really pull in the Solo 2 regulars. With our fixed costs being high (track and ambuance) and per competitor cost low (BBQ, etc), we should be able to drop the entry fee with an increase in competitors.
- Marshalling (take 2) - From this thread it is obvious some people don't want/like to marshall. Charge them more or pay the competitors that do marshall (same thing). I would lean toward paying those that do work and let them declear it when they pre-register so you know how many marshalls you'll have. Maybe refund $5 for each shift they work so they could save $20 on the weekend.
- BBQ - The Solo 1 BBQs are awesome and should be a selling point for the series and an example for all other series to follow.

I have to run but I'll continue this tonight or tomorrow.

[glh]

groths is wonderful but it has it's downsides the more drivers the more problems if you are runnig 50-60 cars and are having trouble fitting them into your day a 100 would be worse you will have to cut track time down not good i started a motocross track in north pickering some 10 years ago we started with about 60 riders you could easly ride good 1/5 hour races now today the same track draws in about 175 riders for a tuesday eve. pratice is now 2 laps and the races 3 maybe 4 laps
what i'm trying to say here is you have a good thing going here maybe some tuning and you WILL attract more drivers
I don't think you want more than about 70-75 drivers per event
the goal should be good seat time and cover costs not make a profit if's a very fine line

[Brent]

What real racing is?

Demolition Derby- real racing is done in "R" for race

Who are real racers?

The crazy people who hang off motorcycle sidecars.


Hmmmm, a motorcycle with sidecar demolition derby would be the ultimate race then.

Cost is what keeps many from starting or continuing to compete in solo 1. Not that it costs too much just that a lot of people can't afford it. The price would have to drop significantly to attract many of the solo2 competitors. Solo2 competitors will drive for hours to get 3-7 runs in a parking lot and thrilled if they get to use second gear. I wonder if solo 1.5 would be an idea, like solo2 on the race track. Would solo2 competitors drive for hours for 3-7 individual timed runs on a race track for say fifty dollars. Just a thought.

[ADAM]

the point is...you don't have to lug around 2 sets of rims and tires....its a real pain swapping tires for most newbees IMO



Originally posted by ctenche
I don't know about the street tire thing. If someone wants to come out for 1 or 2 events and run on their street tires then fine, they won't be competitive against guys with R-compounds. They're only there for two events so what does it matter from the perspective of competing in the series?

If however, you guys bonsus points (a la solo 2) for running street tires, then the whole thing can end up being more expensive than buying a dedicated set of R compounds. Have you looked at the price of a really good street tire? It's insane. We'll end up back at the drawing board in that in that the guy running his OE tires will not be able to compete against a guy who spent the big $$$ on the the BFG KDs or whatever the latest hot street tire is.

Classifying R's as performance upgrades doesn't seem to make sense either as I do believe each and every solo 1 competitor runs on R's. Not sure what the point would be.

[Chris P]

But that’s the catch with Street tire classes; you will need to change tires at the track. Hell, I know people who wrap there Falkens in plastic in between events. There something to keeping the street tires track only and it does make a difference.
If you go look at the STS results from the US Nats all the top cars will be changing tires, no question and that is supposed to be there street tire class............

There will always be a way to do something right, everything is a compromise. And who’s to say that newbie has the slightest chance of being competitive even if they are in a street tire class. The experienced driver will still win the class and the newbie will still feel disappointed by getting beaten by 5 seconds. Seat time is king

Boo to street tires, they don't have any place on the track.

[Dave]

I agree with Krispy on this, 100%. A street tire class only gives the illusion of greater accessibility and lower cost, when in reality it can do the exact opposite (when competitors start showing up with expensive street tires like BFG KD's and lightweight rims). R-compounds are a more affordable, longer lasting, and more predictable track tire, so it just makes sense to encourage their use. The only real way to control tire costs is to go to a spec wheel and tire combo like they have in the Sentra Street Stock series. Otherwise, it's impossible to control cost regardless if you're talking about street tires or r-compounds.

Although I'd love to see our series run on a spec tire, it doesn't make a lot of sense in that we have many competitors running on a wide variety of rubber and we'd suddenly render a lot of good tires useless for competition. This would potentially anger and alienate a lot of our customers, at least short-term. And even a spec tire rule can be abused, in that the competitors with more $ or more desire will show up with freshly shaved and heat cycled tires every weekend, will have a set of full tread depth rain tires, etc. There's always a way to get an advantage over your competitors if you're willing and able to out-spend them, that's just part of racing.

[ShaneG]

and to add my 2c.
If you are trying to attract from the solo 2 croud, R's are very common anyway. so that is IMO, not a big incentive.

[Bubblecar]

I don't view lapping or driving schools as an alternative to Solo time trials or vice versa.

Lapping / driving schools are activities that should be used to introduce, develop and hone performance driving skills. Competitions (be they Solo1 or Solo2) are where you strut your stuff and show how good you are and what you've learned.

I might even advise against a novice "with NO track experience" jumping straight into competition - because as mentioned previously - the format, track time limitations and instruction / instructor set up are not geared to introductory levels.

As for this Solo vs Racing - where did that come from??? Ever notice how some Solo2 competitors complain about lack of respect from Solo1. And Solo1 isn't respected by club racers. And 13/13 club racing is just not the real thing compared to regional. Of course regional is for wusses who are afraid to compete mano-a-mano in Sentra's. And those Sentra's are underpowered girly cars. What about open wheel vs sedan? But real racing is done on ice. . . .
etc. etc. etc. etc. (And obviously - no one respects drag racers!)

Grow up! I've participated and enjoyed most of these activities, and would love some weekend to try drifting.
There are lot's of branches to the world of motorsports - and great drivers have emerged from each and every one of those venues. If you like it (and can afford it) - do it.

As for improving Solo1 - Immediate timing feedback would be a huge breakthrough. Unless you are in the timing shack - it can get pretty frustrating.

[Nissan Racer]

Amen
And this from a guy who has run pretty much everything from drag, to solo I to regional, BMW, Sentras etc.
Its all racing.

[Dave]

very well said, Nick! Couldn't agree more.

[rpr]

Enough of this cuddly agreeing, we need more arguing!

Or, just head on over to the CNAC rules discussion thread, I'm sure that one will get some action... :)

[TFGR]

Originally posted by Bubblecar
I don't view lapping or driving schools as an alternative to Solo time trials or vice versa.

Lapping / driving schools are activities that should be used to introduce, develop and hone performance driving skills. Competitions (be they Solo1 or Solo2) are where you strut your stuff and show how good you are and what you've learned.

I might even advise against a novice "with NO track experience" jumping straight into competition - because as mentioned previously - the format, track time limitations and instruction / instructor set up are not geared to introductory levels.

As for this Solo vs Racing - where did that come from??? Ever notice how some Solo2 competitors complain about lack of respect from Solo1. And Solo1 isn't respected by club racers. And 13/13 club racing is just not the real thing compared to regional. Of course regional is for wusses who are afraid to compete mano-a-mano in Sentra's. And those Sentra's are underpowered girly cars. What about open wheel vs sedan? But real racing is done on ice. . . .
etc. etc. etc. etc. (And obviously - no one respects drag racers!)

Grow up! I've participated and enjoyed most of these activities, and would love some weekend to try drifting.
There are lot's of branches to the world of motorsports - and great drivers have emerged from each and every one of those venues. If you like it (and can afford it) - do it.

As for improving Solo1 - Immediate timing feedback would be a huge breakthrough. Unless you are in the timing shack - it can get pretty frustrating.

Wow....I think bubbleboy hit the nail on the head.

[GR8 Ride]

Originally posted by Bubblecar
I might even advise against a novice "with NO track experience" jumping straight into competition - because as mentioned previously - the format, track time limitations and instruction / instructor set up are not geared to introductory levels.

I'd heartily agree with this. I think a novice student with minimal track time might be inclined to learn some seriously bad habits should they make an immediate jump to Solo 1.

Being perfectly honest, I whole-heartedly believe the best place for anyone to learn car control skills is at Solo 2 (or club Auto-X's). Second place would actually go to an on-track school (BMW Club or otherwise).


Originally posted by Bubblecar
As for this Solo vs Racing - where did that come from??? Ever notice how some Solo2 competitors complain about lack of respect from Solo1. And Solo1 isn't respected by club racers. And 13/13 club racing is just not the real thing compared to regional. Of course regional is for wusses who are afraid to compete mano-a-mano in Sentra's. And those Sentra's are underpowered girly cars. What about open wheel vs sedan? But real racing is done on ice. . . .
etc. etc. etc. etc. (And obviously - no one respects drag racers!)


Again, being perfectly honest, I'd rather race regionally than Club Racing, as most Club Racers have this "I'm in a bubble so nobody can touch me" belief and drive like madmen! I've seen more carnage in PCA Club Racing than I have in any regionals, with the exception of the Sentra boys (which is part of the drawback to any spec vehicle series....).

As to a lack of respect, it's not about that at all. I highly respect Solo 1 and Solo 2; I'm just hesitant to call them racing. As discussed, this is merely a wheel to wheel thing on my part, and is subsequently my opinion only, and doesn't count for much beyond my own beliefs. As I said above, I think Solo 2 is the absolute best place to learn car control skills, and I would probably place some of the Solo 2 crowd as better drivers than many Solo 1 / Lapper / Regional racers.

As to Ice Racing, we're seriously considering building a car to compete in Ice Racing this year. Just need to find the right donor *wreck* to use in the RWD, rubber only class. Though a beat-up 325iX might not be a bad choice....just too expensive!

I must say though, the ice racing thing looks to be more fun than all others combined....


Pat

[JGraves]

Originally posted by Bubblecar
Of course regional is for wusses who are afraid to compete mano-a-mano in Sentra's. And those Sentra's are underpowered girly cars.

You're absolutely right! All the real men used to race CAM-AM cars. Everyone else is a bunch of wusses. :D Except Joe Smiley, I hope I'm half that fast by the time I reach half his age.

[AlienDNA]

Originally posted by GR8 Ride
As to Ice Racing, we're seriously considering building a car to compete in Ice Racing this year. Just need to find the right donor *wreck* to use in the RWD, rubber only class.

Now this is just too scary. I've been looking for a 'good' Chevette/Acadian for the exact same reason.

And there we were, hammer and tong, just two days ago before John shewed us the light.:rolleyes:

[AlienDNA]

Originally posted by rpr
Enough of this cuddly agreeing, we need more arguing!


<python> No we don't! </python>

[JGraves]

Originally posted by JGraves
I've been reading this with much interest as I agree with some points and completely disagree with others.

- Marshalling (take 1) - I don't mind the fact that I have to marshall but I would like to reduce the amount of time I spend there each day. Two people per station is ideal, one can be either busy or lonely while 3 or more is unnecessary. 1.5 hours at a station is ok, much more than 2 can get tiring.
- Radios - Solo 1 should really buy a good set of radios. We've had far to many radio problems this year. Headsets for all would be nice but we only really require one for the starter.
- Banquet - I go to (from Ottawa) and enjoy the banquet but there are far too many and too expensive door prizes. I don't know what the banquet budget looks like and sponsers donating door prizes are great but Solo Ontario should not be paying anything for door prizes.
- Entry Fees - Entry fees are a very small part of my budget and a 50% change would not affect the number of events I do. However... Entry fee is a huge factor in the preceived cost of competing. Our entry fees are approaching that of a regional race weekend. Solo 2 is a fraction of the cost. I think we have to be in the $60 to $75 dollar per event (day) range to really pull in the Solo 2 regulars. With our fixed costs being high (track and ambuance) and per competitor cost low (BBQ, etc), we should be able to drop the entry fee with an increase in competitors.
- Marshalling (take 2) - From this thread it is obvious some people don't want/like to marshall. Charge them more or pay the competitors that do marshall (same thing). I would lean toward paying those that do work and let them declear it when they pre-register so you know how many marshalls you'll have. Maybe refund $5 for each shift they work so they could save $20 on the weekend.
- BBQ - The Solo 1 BBQs are awesome and should be a selling point for the series and an example for all other series to follow.

I have to run but I'll continue this tonight or tomorrow.

I'm back.

- 2 events in 1 weekend - IMO the only way to do things. I spend 2 to 6+ hours driving to the track and about 2 hours unpacking and making changes to the car at the track. For that much effort I want 2 events.
- Lapping - Again IMO we already do too much lapping. It's nice to get out for 2 or 3 laps in the morning to familiarize yourself with the track but that's all I'm looking for. The benifit of this there are no surprises about configuration or track conditions on your first lap.
-Number timed laps - For a Solo format event 10 to 12 timed laps is fine. I think if we get into more than about 15 timed laps than a change of scoring may be required to keep things interesting. Maybe scoring based on a "race" where the on track format is the same but the scoring is based on the sum of every timed lap, rewarding clean, consistant and on track driving. Don't complain about my use of the "R word", its the only term I can think of at the moment.
- On track format - the current 3 lap X 4 heat format works well but more consecutive timed laps is a more effecient use of our track time until we start throwing yellows. This year has seen excellent gridding and very few yellow flags.
- Using the track - There should always be cars on the track. Where do those cars come from? Either more competitors, more timed laps for the "race" format or separate lapping in the morning.
- Potential market - I see two huge, ripe sources for new Solo 1 competitors, the Solo 2 crowd and the import crowd.
- Solo 2 crowd - They're a cheap bunch but they're willing to spend a full day and pay $30 to drive around a parking lot for 5 minutes at less than 80km/h and some are really dedicated and talented competitors. Many of the current Solo 1 competitors do or have done Solo 2. I've done about 40 Solo 2s and still try to do a few when time permits. We have to convince this group that Solo 1 is affordable and can be done in their daily drivers.
- Import crowd - They seem to be interested in the image, excitment and instant gratification of drag racing, car shows, drifting and street racing. Solo 1 (aka JDM style Time Attack, Yo!) could be an excellent match for this crowd. It would be a lot more organization than a typical Solo 1 but image a Solo 1 organized weekend at Shannonville with a car show in the paddock, drift competition on the skidpad, Solo 1 on Nelson, drag racing on the Fabi straight and a live band Saturday evening. This would expose us to 1000s of potential new competitors, spectators and that brings $pon$er$.
- Lap time display - The post-it notes are a great addition but a pair of display board would be that much better, one visible by the driver, the other for spectators. On that note, an announcer on the PA added a lot of interest at the Pro-Solo I attended this spring.
- Classes - More competitors per class would be great. In general, the new classification system is a good improvement that needs a few treaks over the winter. I would like to see 10 competitors in each of the current classes and if everyone had a battle like Rob and I did this year and Steve, Andre and I 3 years ago, we'd have triple digit entries at ever event.
- Street tires - It would be extreamly difficult to write a street tire rule that would have the intended effect however a Bridgestone RE92 would be much closer to a BFG KD than it would be to a Hoosier R3S03.

Thats all I can think of at the moment,

[Chris P]

Originally posted by GR8 Ride

I must say though, the ice racing thing looks to be more fun than all others combined....


Pat


Say that again after you spend the weekend repairing your car outdoors.............ITS COLD!!!!!!!!!!


I would love to ice race, i already have cars to do it, but the working in the cold thing is not so hot.... :p Meh, never know...
After all my practice on the street at 1am in the mornin' i know i would be a PRO at it :D



Just reading and trying to picture Jeff saying "aka JDM style Time Attack, Yo! " made this whole thread worth while.......


maybe he is on to something, Perhaps we need to give SOLO 1 a new identity in the minds of the import crowd and a name change may be a good start.........just at shows and stuph!

[ADAM]

jeff... AWSOME IDEA...


Import crowd - They seem to be interested in the image, excitment and instant gratification of drag racing, car shows, drifting and street racing. Solo 1 (aka JDM style Time Attack, Yo!) could be an excellent match for this crowd. It would be a lot more organization than a typical Solo 1 but image a Solo 1 organized weekend at Shannonville with a car show in the paddock, drift competition on the skidpad, Solo 1 on Nelson, drag racing on the Fabi straight and a live band Saturday evening. This would expose us to 1000s of potential new competitors, spectators and that brings $pon$er$.

[JGraves]

Originally posted by Chris P
Just reading and trying to picture Jeff saying "aka JDM style Time Attack, Yo! " made this whole thread worth while.......


Even I am having a hard time with that mental image although I think anyone who has ever seen me drive in the rain could picture me entering a drift comp :D

[roooo]

Time Attack in Japan is badass ...
You get insane cars from all the tuner shops going at it. So what we really need here is to get the local tuning shops involved to battle it out on the track at a santioned event.

http://www.superstreetonline.com/featuredvehicles/130_0304_jun/
http://www.junauto.co.jp/reports/tuner-gp/?en

[Dave]

you know, when I sit back and really think about it, IMO we have a darn good product in Solo 1 and with some minor tweaking we can make it that much better (digital displays seem to feature prominently in a lot of our visions of how to improve the series).
If we had just 10 more drivers per event, which isn't a huge number, the series would be really strong financially and competitively.

That being said, I wonder if all we really need to do is advertise more effectively, getting our 'brand' out there into the hands of people who don't know about us but would potentially be interested in participating if they did. Under Christian's guidance we're already getting a lot more print coverage for the series in Inside Track and I've started to get us some coverage in Grassroots Motorsports magazine and I'm also doing a Solo 1 article for 'Speed Style and Sound' magazine. I think if we keep pushing to open up new avenues of advertising we'll see the number of competitors we want. Forging alliances with local automotive shops where we can post flyers and other kinds of advertisements is something we really haven't tapped into in a systematic way either. We should be getting our ads into free magazines like the one published by 'Performance Improvements' and trying to get some coverage in the Toronto Star for example.

I don't know, I think we're moving in the right direction and with a bit more concentration and effort on the marketing and advertising side we could be getting the competitor response we're after. I think it'll be easier to land sponsors too if we can continue to get coverage of our series in print media and maybe even some TV coverage.

[ScotcH]

Originally posted by Dave

That being said, I wonder if all we really need to do is advertise more effectively, getting our 'brand' out there into the hands of people who don't know about us but would potentially be interested in participating if they did.

Just to illustrate this point, I never heard of Solo I, or even lapping, until I did a lapping day last year. I always dreamed (dreamt?) of taking my car on a track, thinking that it was simply out of my reach. Low and behold, I go to the MCO website to look at rally stuff, and I see a post about the HADA lapping day, and the rest is history.

So, I think you're absolutly right, Dave ... we really have to get our name and what we do out there! I bet there are many people who would love to take their car to the track, but simply are cluless (like I was) that it's really possible. Write-ups in motorsport magazines is great, but it won't help the poeple that don't read those (read: not already into car racing/lapping)... exposure on the local news, in local papers, and local car-type events is what we need more of!

[ScotcH]

Related to the advertizing, what ever happend to that Tuner show on TSN that was filming at the Solo I school?

[tomfoolery]

Ok I'm just going to spew out some points...some may seem blunt but its not like you guys are holding back.

1. I have taken part in solo , kart racing and open lapping

2. The solo crowd is alway metioning how friendly they are yet it is always someone from solo putting down another form of motorsport. We'll take the driftnation even for example I mean I was actually embarrased for you guys as I couldn't believe that you had a mutipage thread going on how stupid drifting was and how afriad you were that you were going to loose your parking lot. The part that killed me is that after badmouthing the driftnation people they actually say they want to work with you to make the event run smoothly WTF is that don't they have any balls?

3. From Toronto there must be a ridiculous amount of lapping days being run that range in prices from $50-to say $250. Most of them are open lapping with no groups basically run what you brung as much as you want whenever you want. Now when I turned up to one of these days I was suprised to see the amount of gt guys who show up to do testing and they had NO PROBLEMS running with some kid in his integra or whatever. Now look at it the other way around that kid in his integra is on the track with touring car guy and they are both going at it...yeah thats right. Of course the race car driver might hold back the bumping and banging but here some kid from say scarborough in what is pretty much a race car without the cage and safety equipment and they are both having a good time chasing each other down. That kid(which most of these drivers are) is having a blast because he got a chance to RACE with his friend or that race car. Was what I descibed as racing...sure why not they are both pushing their cars(and there is skill involved in not banging into each other) Is it safe well those lapping days seem to attract as much or more people then I've ever seen at a solo event and I haven't seen more people have bad accidents then anything thats happened at a solo event. So I don't think proclaiming how much solo is safer then other events helps your case.

4.How are you going to draw the sort of crowds lapping and drag racing does...we'll your not. Lets face it you have the hottest hooters girls but I'm not going to show up to get a quarter of the track time that I could get at a lapping day for $50-$80 LESS then what solo charges. MOST of the people that don't attend solo events really could care less about their times actually they might like to know they pull 1:xx on pro and their friend pulls a 1:xx but they can get that from a friend holding a stopwatch. at the end of the day its all about who they passed and what car they passed.

5. Marshalling : hire damn marshals for gods sake why this hasn't been done I have no idea. Having the same people actually is better as they know the corner better and know what to do and when to do it as thats all they have to do. If you can't find people I'm sure there are plenty of unemployed people in Toronto that would give up a day or 2 for $40-$50 bucks.

6. As an organised series don't look down apon people who aren't in your series. I see many people out at these lapping events who should be racing but just don't have the funds. They have all the skills just not enough money I give them tons of respect as they are very fast and enjoy themselves. they don't care who they drive with as long as they get good track time.

7.I'm not tring to rain on your parade but again I don't see you attracting the crowds that W2W ,lappin and drag racing does. People WANT to race someone else...when was the last time you heard of someone racing themselves from one stop light to another? You might say well yeah but thats what drag racing is well drag racing invovles a whole lot of attitude and "I have a faster car then you or my shop is faster then yours" so its very little to do with the driver and more a car vs car deal. Where as solo puts all the importance on driver. Using your car to race another car is part of Ontarios subculture(dare I say street racing) and W2W, lapping and drag racing in Ontario right now is just a evolution of street racing.

Oh yes I forgot there is a HUGE movement towards motorcycles right now and I wouldn't be suprised if you see many more people attracted to the bike scene as it seems the coolest hottest thing of the moment. So next year bike lappingdays and stunt shows should see a LARGE number of probable car drivers gravitate towards that sport(s)

[TFGR]

How about announcing each year some cheap POS tire that entirely everyone that competes in Solo 1 has to run during the season. Getting sponsorship from the manufacturer in as much as making it easier to purchase for everyone.....then calling it the "Goodyear(orwhatever)Solo 1 series".

[Nissan Racer]

LOL...might be hard to get a tire sponsor if you tell them you're looking for a cheap POS. Hope Yokohama (who does sponsorship for Solo I) or any other tire representitive doesn't read that

[roooo]

ADVAN sponsors so many events in Japan it's like they own ever race track in the country.

Will ADVAN Mobara be the spec tire for 2004 Solo 1 in Ontario? hehe

[Nissan Racer]

Probably just the 032R

[roooo]

*yawn* still only one model of race tire...
Why not the 048 .. it looks way cooler !

[Lafora]

Originally posted by ADAM
jeff... AWSOME IDEA...


drift competition on the skidpad,

that ain't gonna happen

esp the drift.

that skidpad is WAY too small to have a drift "competition"

drift experiment maybe. not competition.
just not big enough.


and for god's sakes don't bring those ricefest to the paddock. i go to the track for the very sole reason of being as far away frm that crap as possible and you want to bring em to the paddock?:confused: next thing you know OPP's gonna setup a chkpoint right at the entrance of shannonville :mad:

have em take that crap to skydome or doodbridge please. i go to the track to drive and have a blast, not to see THAT kinda crap
:rolleyes:

if they bring their ricebowls to the track and not run it.. it won't be plesant for em..cuz EVERYONE will be asking why isn't that thing running where it belongs ;)

[roooo]

You haven't ever met any drifters have you...

[Lafora]

oh..i guess i might as well add why i'm not in soloI

one fabi track day cost me 45 to 60 bucks

such days usually lasts 3 hours.

i can run however long i want in that 3 hours w/o having to worry about marshalling, etc (tho i do volunteer while my car is resting)

the bottleneck to my track time isn't the organisation, it's the car ;)

i don't need to bring R compounds, car prepped to the hilt to have my fun. and seriously, who wants to enter a competition to get their asses kicked. you can say what you want about run what you bring, but for me, i don't see any enjoyment knowing i'm the slowest out there :D you might argue that it's a good learning process, and while I don't disagree with that, I can say that of the past season of open lap days (which was my first full season btw), i've learned new things out of every single time i've been out there. maybe in a few years, after i get some proper instruction, i'll give your sport a try and see how i fare..but for now, the thought of competing is too intimidating :p

no one laughs at me for running street tires on open lap days. nor does anyone laugh at the fellow who brings his bone stock winterbeater to the lapping sessions that i've been to.

ppl are polite just the same and the more experienced drivers that i've met are glad to share track knowledge as well as mechanical knowledge should shit break on the track. (just shows that ALL enthusiasts are friendly..not just the ppl in solo)

a track day costs me a total of under 100 bucks by the time i leave my house, to the time i come back. i doubt you can say that for a solo event.

and for the timed thing..how hard is it to get a buddy to time you at the track. sure he might not be SPOT on every lap, but i doubt that human error of 0.1-0.2 (god forbid of THAT slow RT once he got the hang of it) will make a difference for MOST drivers that i've seen on a open lapping day (myself included)

[Lafora]

Originally posted by roooo
You haven't ever met any drifters have you...

i only ran w/ about 12 of em on the first weekend of july in the shannonville skidpad.

so i guess no..i havn'et meet any drifters, since we were all there LEARNING how to drift.

[roooo]

ok .. I guess I misread your comment. You talked about drifting and then talked about *****s so got the impression you were saying that drifters are *****s or something like that.

[Dave Barker]

Originally posted by Lafora
oh..i guess i might as well add why i'm not in soloI

one fabi track day cost me 45 to 60 bucks

( THAT IS A GREAT DEAL!! I HAVE NEVER HAD THE LUCK TO BE INVOLVED IN SUCH A CHEAP DAY, CERTAINLY NOT ON A WKEND. WHO ORGANISED SUCH A BARGAIN BASEMENT DAY??)

i don't need to bring R compounds, car prepped to the hilt to have my fun. and seriously, who wants to enter a competition to get their asses kicked. you can say what you want about run what you bring, but for me, i don't see any enjoyment knowing i'm the slowest out there maybe in a few years, after i get some proper instruction, i'll give your sport a try and see how i fare..but for now, the thought of competing is too intimidating :p

( NO ONE WILL MAKE FUN OF YOU IF YOU BRING STREET TIRES BUT IF YOU ARE JUST STARTING IS IT NOT REASONABLE TO EXPECT TO BE LAST?? DOESN'T MAKE IT ANY LESS OF A LEARNING EXPERIENCE. MY CAR IS MY DAILY DRIVER ( WHICH INCLUDES WINTER) AND IS CERTAINLY NOT PREPARED TO ANYTHING LIKE RACE CAR PREP. YOU MAY INDEED NOT BE READY TO COMPETE YET IF YOU FEEL INTIMIDATED)


and for the timed thing..how hard is it to get a buddy to time you at the track. sure he might not be SPOT on every lap, but i doubt that human error of 0.1-0.2 (god forbid of THAT slow RT once he got the hang of it) will make a difference for MOST drivers that i've seen on a open lapping day (myself included)

( AT ONE EVENT AT FABI THIS YEAR THE TOP 4 DRIVERS IN GT1 WERE WITHIN 0.15 SECONDS, WAY TOO CLOSE FOR HAND HELD TIMERS)

Certainly there is no street driven car out there that could handle 3 hours of full out competition intensity driving even exotics. 8/10ths maybe but no way for 9.5 or 10/10ths. Part of the reason we limit Solo 1 competition to 3 hot laps at a time is to help prevent mechanical failure or mishap for the street driven vehicles.


BTW Pat, I feel I may have not expressed myself well when discussing the "excuses" used by W2W racers. All of the statements as to why certain people haven't won that I mentioned have been used on TV by Tracy , Montoya. Andretti , Schuemaker, Tagliani and a host of others. What I should have said was "explanation" not "excuse" as indeed all these explanations may be perfectly valid. In other words the reason they did not win may not be their fault. OTOH in Solo 1 the ONLY reason you don't win ( excepting car prep issues which are present in all forms of motorsport) is that YOU screwed up i.e. corner 1,2,3 etc or combination of the above. This is why I maintain that Solo 1 is a more pure form of motorsport than W2W , not necessarily BETTER but more pure. The new classification system means that no longer can someone have an outstandingly superior car in any given class and ONLY the driver's ability should decide who wins ( which we all know is not ALWAYS the case in W2W just need to mention Damon Hill, Jacques Villenueve , Frank Biela to name a few)

[Shaman]

Originally posted by Dave Barker [b]
Certainly there is no street driven car out there that could handle 3 hours of full out competition intensity driving even exotics. 8/10ths maybe but no way for 9.5 or 10/10ths. Part of the reason we limit Solo 1 competition to 3 hot laps at a time is to help prevent mechanical failure or mishap for the street driven vehicles.

Very true. Although I've discovered that modern motorcycles can go that hard for seemingly ever... no internal reciprocating weight to speak of, titanium bits where it makes sense and low weight...

Your point is very good, the longer a track is being hammered on track, the more likely it is something will fail - usually from heat and fatigue.

[J.C.]

Originally posted by roooo
Time Attack in Japan is badass ...
You get insane cars from all the tuner shops going at it. So what we really need here is to get the local tuning shops involved to battle it out on the track at a santioned event.

http://www.superstreetonline.com/featuredvehicles/130_0304_jun/
http://www.junauto.co.jp/reports/tuner-gp/?en

This is already being done, however I do agree somehow it should be expanded on an improved. Digital display boards would add some interest to the sport.

http://www.xtremespeedtrials.com/html/Race.html

P.S. This event was very poorly addvertised IMO.

[ScotcH]

Originally posted by J.C.

http://www.xtremespeedtrials.com/html/Race.html

P.S. This event was very poorly addvertised IMO.

No kidding ... first I heard of it.

[Dave]

a few Solo 1 guys went to this event back in July and it sounded like it was basically a lapping day with 1 timed hot lap thrown in at the end of the day for bragging rights.