q: cone penalty and re-run rules

[finboy]

we had a discussion about re-runs and cone penatlies

the issue should the cone penalty carry over on a re-run or not

after some searching, this is what I found

Ontario Regional rule book http://solo2.casc.on.ca/info/documents/2009/CASC-OR-2009_AS_rulebook-final-March_15-2009.pdf

4.11.4 Re-runs
Re-runs shall be granted only for timer failure, persons on course, hazardous objects on course, or as authorized by the Organizer or Clerk of the Course. The affected competitor shall be shown a red flag on course and shall stop and await the course marshal’s instructions. Mechanical failures, failure to obey course marshals, and other competitor-related incidents are not eligible for re-runs. Also, some competitor actions may be considered sufficient cause for disqualification by the steward(s). Any and all pylon penalties from the previous aborted run SHALL carry over to the re-run. Any competitor executing a DNF prior to being ‘red-flagged’ is not eligible for a re-run.


2007 http://www.wcma.ca/2007%20Regulations/ASN%20Canada%20FIA%202007%20Autoslalom%20Regs%20-%20Mar07.pdf

3.4.6.Re-runs
Re-runs shall be granted only for timer failure (as described in 3.4 13), persons on course,
or hazardous objects on course. The affected competitor shall be shown a red flag on
course and shall stop and await the course marshal’s instructions. Mechanical failures,
failure to obey course marshals, and other competitor-related incidents are not eligible for
re-runs and some competitor actions may be considered sufficient cause for disqualification
by the steward(s). Any and all pylon penalties from the previous aborted run shall NOT
carry over to the re-run. Any competitor executing a DNF prior to being ‘red-flagged’ is
not eligible for a re-run.


7.4 RERUNS http://www.scca.org/documents/Solo%20Rules/2008_Solo_Rules_2.pdf

Reruns will be granted only for timing failure or object on the
course, and will not be given because of mechanical or other failure
of the competitor’s car. A minimum of five minutes must have
elapsed, before a competitor may take a rerun.
Pylon penalties are not carried over to the rerun. A DNF on a run
for which a rerun would have been given shall stand and no reruns
shall be given.


to me and others, carrying over a cone penatly for a re-run makes sense, but why do other clubs NOT carry them over

their competitor starts fresh on a re-run???


there must be an obvious answer...

holla

[smokinfire]

I'm not really against carrying penalties forward to a rerun, but where it can get a bit dicy is multiple reruns.

To make an extreme example, say one car gets 10 continuous reruns... thats a lot of perfect runs, just to get a time.

I think there should be some sort of exception to the rule for repeated reruns for pylons (not off course). Maybee the penalties from only the first run carry forward?

On a side note, what are the policies for how soon the rerun is taken? I just went for 3 runs in a row (2 reruns), and sure my tires had a little more heat in them, and I was able to get into a bit of a grove, but on the other side, my tire pressures drifted noticibly, and the engine started fighting the heat buldup...

[Black Shadow]

Like stop box rules (complete, rolling, do you have to touch the end cone, or knock it out per the 'down and out rule') I think re-runs should be at the descretion of the organizing club. If you've got an easy going less competitive atmosphere, then go for a clean slate. Though, when things are more competitive its a pain to see your main competition get additional free and clear runs.

</2 cents>

[finboy]

On a side note, what are the policies for how soon the rerun is taken? I just went for 3 runs in a row (2 reruns), and sure my tires had a little more heat in them, and I was able to get into a bit of a grove, but on the other side, my tire pressures drifted noticibly, and the engine started fighting the heat buldup...

sections 1-3 of the regional rule book applies to all ontario clubs
4+ regional events only

(if it's a club event.. it can be whatever homebrew rule)


4.11.5 Consecutive Runs
No driver shall make two runs back to back. There shall be a minimum five-minute space between runs made by the same car either by two drivers or by the same driver. If a competitor is granted a re-run, it shall be administered in this manner also.

[Marsh]

At the rule meeting there was discussion about cone penalties carrying on re-runs. Many-MANY people didn't notice the rule change when we went to the national style current rule book here in Ontario back several years ago. There was a conscious decision to change the rule back in the current rule book (which is how it was back in the late nineties).

But, as stated, this is only for provincial events.

I can only think of one reason not to carry penalties. Record keeping. Since the run that results in a rerun is not necessarily recorded anywhere it's very easy for an error to be made and a penalty not get transferred. If the rule is that they don't get transferred then no problem and it's always fair for everyone. Beyond that I've never liked the rule because it opens the door for someone to hit a cone and then claim a marshal was wondering too far from their station and they didn't feel safe to proceed.

[Taylor]

Why oh why am I getting involved? :)

They should carry forward as a rule (at least in the case of a timer malfunction).

There should not be specific tangible benefit to a timer malfunction. Bad enough for that persons competitors that they get another kick at the can. Anything else is like being touched by an angel. Lets not involve the gods and fate into the mix.

Though I think there are situations that would merit using a ruling at the appropriate officials discretion (proximity of penalty to cause of re-run).

[finboy]

one birdy says..

NO the penalty should NOT carry over..

reason being.. there is no ying to the yang

in otherwords.. there's no place on course to get a bonus time.. only added time!!


hense... a re-run should be a FRESH ONE

[Taylor]

Right, so when someone is on trial for shooting another person, and someone in the jury dies mid-trial, that guy should be able to just walk and not be retried? :)

Dood hits cone, timer dies, doesn't know there's a rerun until the end of his run, he should be absolved of all penalties? out and out crazy talk.'

The point of the rerun is only so we can log a time. The competitive advantage of a rerun should be kept to a minimum.

[TOYSRUS]

I completely supported the penalty carrying forward....until this past weekend. I agree with Smokinfire, multiple reruns exponentially increase your odds of hitting a cone making the carryover rule not as favourable:(

[mikewolf]

There has been more than one event where I hit a cone on every run. That means my fastest times included a cone. If I were to get a rerun, I would likely double the number of cones that would count against me.

Cones carrying forward is like saying if you have a clean run and the timer screws up your next run is automatically clean.

[Taylor]

So what you guys are trying to say is that additional cracks at the course and the MASSIVE benefit those net (most people) does not equal the penalty of hitting cones (which you're NOT supposed to do).

I can just imagine the inverse of this whole thing.

Scenario:

Driver A and B are in the same class, within tenths of each other for the championship. Driver A is quicker this day. A situation occurs like last week where the timing beam just decided it wanted to only randomly register breaks.

Driver B does his 5th and final run, and cones. But the timing beam doesn't register him crossing the line. On his (now) 6th run, he's clean and faster than Driver A now.

You guys want to award the win, to Driver B.

Again... Crazy talk.

Now... to support your position... lets say Driver B somehow finds 2.2 seconds out there on his 5th and final run, but cones and if the timer worked, he'd have taken it by .1 second.

Now forget the fact, we'd never know.. because the timing malfunctioned. But lets say we did know. So that penalty carries forward now.. but again, to win, he needs to back up that time. If he can, great, he wins.. but if the re-rerun is only a clean 2 seconds quicker. Ce la vie don't you think?

I mean, I don't know what the odds on this are, but they've got to be damned slim in this scenario. I think the onus is on the driver to backup their time given additional runs at the course anyhow.

Call it bad luck but it's no where near as bad as the first scenario where Driver A gets the motherf'king shaft because if the timing worked or didn't work, that guy still hit the cone.

Go with what is known (the penalty) rather than the unknown (what time he MIGHT have done had the timing equipment been functioning). What's fair is fair.. the fact the timing failed on ANYONES run is by chance. You still decided to hit the cone, whether it's the 1st, 2nd or 10th re-run.

[thekid]

Just to add more fuel to this fire, is the specific cone that is carried forward considered...

If I hit a cone on a run, that is otherwise good, but a re-run is forced due to a timer malfunction. That cone can carry forward, but if I hit the exact same cone again, but I'm otherwise clean on my re-run, do I get penalized for hitting the same cone twice?

[msix]

I see it this way:
The nature of the game at Auto-X is that a competitor is trying to have ONE!!! fast (and preferably clean) run. That's the only thing that counts at the end of the day.
How many tries that competitor has is not really relevant. Some clubs/events limit the runs to three, others have whatever they can get through in a day, maybe 10 or more.
If you hit cones, spin out, have DNFs, you have screwed up THAT run.
The next run you try again, cleaner, faster ... it does not matter what you did in the previous 2, 3, ..8 other runs.

If, for whatever reason your run is red-flagged or no time is posted, it's not your fault. THAT run is incomplete, does NOT count, is NOT in the books. It might have been your worst run, then it's "lucky you", it could have been your best run, then ... too bad....

The competitor shall be able to go back to the line up, wait 5 minutes and have another FAIR chance to do run # 2, 3, ...8 (whatever) without interferrence .... like every other competitor. Every run should count for itself the times are not taken cummilative, the ONE BEST run counts.

Re-runs could possibly give an advantage for a few drivers to have another chance, but I am sure there are also lots of drivers that screwed up the re-run after a perfectly good run that did not count because of a timing error.

[soloZ]

Why bother taking a rerun if you know the penalty carries over? it sounds pointless.

[nitrowsb]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You're my hero Ryan!:D:D:D

[smokinfire]

I had exactly that feeling going into my 2nd rerun... My original run was clean (I will argue also my fastest), I hit a cone on my 1st rerun, and was treating my 2nd rerun like a fun run.

[DareBee]

Because Practice makes perfect
The same reason that you don't show up in the morning, take 1 run, then go home.
Because you came to the event to drive the crap out of your car as many times as you are allowed.

Theoretically it is pointless to take the already penalized run.
OTOH the same (pointless) can be said about spending hundreds (thousands) of dollars and a crapload of time on 30 minutes of "seat" time every year.

[Taylor]

Just to add more fuel to this fire, is the specific cone that is carried forward considered...

If I hit a cone on a run, that is otherwise good, but a re-run is forced due to a timer malfunction. That cone can carry forward, but if I hit the exact same cone again, but I'm otherwise clean on my re-run, do I get penalized for hitting the same cone twice?

Does it really matter? :) I mean seriously?

1 cone is 1 cone too many.

Ryan: Because you get to drive the course 1 (or more) times than your competitors. Even though the penalty may carry over, assuming your rerun is clean, you may have found time out there. Sure it's a lost run, but it was a lost run when you hit the first bloody cone.

Not Ryan: I can't believe this is even a discussion.

Besides being the quickest, the next critical goal of autox is NOT to hit cones. If they were concrete cinder blocks you all would be a lot more careful not to hit them. But if they were, and you hit one and dented your fender, and you got a rerun... you still must suffer your penalty. The dent does not magically disappear.

It's like some people just search for something to argue or complain about. My own dumb fault for participating. Baited again.

[finboy]

i think we're (ontario regionish) the only ones doing the penatly carry over thing


how strange are dem apples??

[Taylor]

I hear people out east are jumping off bridges.

[finboy]

I hear people out east are jumping off bridges.


aren't you from out east??

[Taylor]

I left cause they were jumping off bridges.

Ultimately I've lived more of my life here than there.

[holliko]

Why bother taking a rerun if you know the penalty carries over? it sounds pointless.


Don't hit cones its fastest....

[finboy]

I see it this way:
The nature of the game at Auto-X is that a competitor is trying to have ONE!!! fast (and preferably clean) run. That's the only thing that counts at the end of the day.

How many tries that competitor has is not really relevant. Some clubs/events limit the runs to three, others have whatever they can get through in a day, maybe 10 or more......

Re-runs could possibly give an advantage for a few drivers to have another chance, but I am sure there are also lots of drivers that screwed up the re-run after a perfectly good run that did not count because of a timing error.

ok how fair would it be if you get 3 runs, and other drivers of the same caliber in your class get 1 or 2 extra runs to set their FTD

if you're confident, and a top driver, you'll always be faster with an extra run, if anything.. you'll plateau (after the 3rd or 4th run.. then searching for .000ths)

vs. a rookieish type who has 50/50 chance of hitting cones or going faster

[finboy]

Why bother taking a rerun if you know the penalty carries over? it sounds pointless.

some want seat time, some want to keep their tires warm


but some might want to save their tires

[finboy]

the sport is supposed to provide a consistant course design, and to allow the driver to record a time

1) on a run where the driver runs clean, and there's a _____ isssue where the driver is required to do a re-run

*re-run start fresh*

2) on a run where the driver hits a cone, (it's not the fault of the organizer/event) and there's a _____________ issue where the driver is required to do a re-run

*why shouldn't there be a carryover?*

[Steelrat]

It would seem to me that if you hit the cone on the first run, it should carry through for the second attempts. You've already had x number opportunity to get better on the course, and potentially there's additional heat in the tires.

In an event where you get 3, 4, or 5 additional runs, that just gives most drivers even the rookies, an opportunity to learn the course... that the other drivers aren't getting. Wear and tear aside of course.

But an there can be an even larger differential if there are fixed bodies marshalling during that time. Basically, their stint gets longer and they have more time "between" their runs. Since they aren't driving anyway, they have 0 opportunity for any of the re-runs....

So then the advantage is something which you can still take to your next run. You know the course better, that the other guy, you might know a different shift point, or not to shift... etc. You've had more time to experiment....

Dave,

[TOYSRUS]

The reason we are one of the few with this rule is because it make sense at club level events where you have "x" number of runs to "learn" the course. At the other end of the spectrum, lets say the SCCA where you have 3 runs to get it right the "learning" takes place in multiple course walks. EVERY single run is flat out, balls to the wall and it is not uncommon for elite drivers to not post a clean run....they are pushing the envelope at all times.
Each run is considered a separate entity and as Klaus said, its not the drivers fault, a rerun is granted.

The other reason the carry over penalty makes sense for local events is because the necessity for MULTIPLE reruns is almost unheard of.

[soloZ]

Isn't there a rule where you have to wait a certain amount of time(or number of cars) before doing a run like when you have multiple drivers. I think I am just getting old and annoyed mostly by the fact I am not aloud to do any events this year. (the wife)

[Cliff96]

I'd agree penalties should not be carried forward to a re-run - as Klaus has pointed out each run is scored individually - the best run counts, the others don't matter.


To steer the topic event further off topic (or maybe back towards the topic) - if the issue is about drivers getting an extra look at the course while driving - should we also then restrict ride-alongs for other competitors? They are gaining an advantage by seeing the course at speed, although they are not physically driving the course.

[msix]

ok how fair would it be if you get 3 runs, and other drivers of the same caliber in your class get 1 or 2 extra runs to set their FTD

if you're confident, and a top driver, you'll always be faster with an extra run, if anything.. you'll plateau (after the 3rd or 4th run.. then searching for .000ths)

vs. a rookieish type who has 50/50 chance of hitting cones or going faster

It would be perfectly fair and to the rules. Yes, I would be bummed, because another driver has another chance for FTD, but it is not that drivers doing that caused a re-run, lucky break ... maybe, could be the other way around.

I'll ask you a question: Would you give the driver on a re-run a TIME penalty if he did NOT hit a cone on the original run? ... just because he has another (unfair) chance to set a (maybe) better time???

[finboy]

Isn't there a rule where you have to wait a certain amount of time(or number of cars) before doing a run like when you have multiple drivers.

see page 1 post #4




I think I am just getting old and annoyed mostly by the fact I am not aloud to do any events this year. (the wife)


wait till you have a baby... :)

[DareBee]

Last time I ran the regional series - no passengers were allowed.
Never used to be allowed at club events either (until fun runs).

As far as passengers go, everyone has the same chance to be a passenger (perfectly fair).

If you collected a cone on a run and the timer (etc) had NOT malfunctioned you would have had a penalty on that time anyway. So why is it not fair to carry it over? Nobody can FORCE you to take the re-run, if you don't want it don't go.
Why should that driver have a double whammy of unfairness (clean re-run as well as practice)? Take the practice run FWIW.

OTOH just stop hitting cones (I am one to talk - huh).

[finboy]

It would be perfectly fair and to the rules. Yes, I would be bummed, because another driver has another chance for FTD, but it is not that drivers doing that caused a re-run, lucky break ... maybe, could be the other way around.

If a guy is clean, and gets a re-run, his/her competitors can swallow the chance of going faster on the rerun attempt
(kinda like hitting the play & record buttons on the first run, and it doesn't work, and they have to do it again in order to record it)

But if they hit a cone, then get a re-run
(they're like rewinding the tape, hitting play and record and erasing the part where they hit the cone)



I'll ask you a question: Would you give the driver on a re-run a TIME penalty if he did NOT hit a cone on the original run? ... just because he has another (unfair) chance to set a (maybe) better time???

If a cone wasn't down'd on the run with no time, and is told to get a re-run, I'd say "you lucky bastage"

Using the SCCA / CNAC rules, I'd say "you mother lucky bastage"





Question to the peeps.. Is there any sport/game where a do-over/rerun carries over the penalty??

The only sport I found is Hockey but only for specific mis-conduct issues

Otherwise, a rerun in other sports/games, is exactly that


"to run again or anew"

[Travis]

I'm still undecided on this issue, but I'd like to bring up a point:

If you don't have the penalty carry over, you could have a situation where a dishonest person intentionally causes a re-run when they/their friend hits a cone. (oops, I "accidentally" tripped on the timing equipment, I guess my buddy gets a rerun without that cone penalty).

This would obviously not happen today but I could see this happening in a hyper competitive atmosphere, especially if there were large prizes at stake.

[Taylor]

Same could be said about any official in any sport.

Cheating at this level of the sport is pathetic.

What more is there to say?

I'm still undecided on this issue, but I'd like to bring up a point:

If you don't have the penalty carry over, you could have a situation where a dishonest person intentionally causes a re-run when they/their friend hits a cone. (oops, I "accidentally" tripped on the timing equipment, I guess my buddy gets a rerun without that cone penalty).

This would obviously not happen today but I could see this happening in a hyper competitive atmosphere, especially if there were large prizes at stake.

[soloZ]

see page 1 post #4






wait till you have a baby... :)

it's four months down the road

[DareBee]

it's four months down the road

You haven't even got the kid yet and you still have to stay home!

MAN!

RIP Ryan