Harsh development in Atlantic Canada!

[RacerRobb]

I don't have any further information about this situation then what is available on the page. I have asked for clarification of this from the original poster or the URL but it something that we should be aware of in Ontario and the rest of Canada, for that matter.

If this is just another example of police short sightedness then it truly is a sad thing. This on top of the ticket parade outside of some of the organized drag race events will just drive a bigger wedge between car enthusiasts and the police deparments thata particpate in such disruptions.

Read the page and cry a little for organized motorsports.

http://www.nmanley.012webpages.com/

Robert W Smith
CASC-OR Solo II Director

[AcidGord]

A better spot for info would be the (Now very long) thread on the forum of armsinc.ca (http://www.armsinc.ca/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=589)

Long and the short of it is the chief of police took it upon himself to shut us down. NO citizens complained whatsoever and after failing to get us shut down for safety concerns (We addressed all of the concerns they brought up immediately) about an hour later he sent officers over with orders to ticket any car making excessive tire noise. Competing or not. ($200 ticket + 2pts)

Basically the end of the day for an event most of us travelled a moderate distance for (1-3 hours)

Shame, a good lot too. And LOTS of very interested and appreciative spectators. When it finally became clear we wouldn't be able to start up again they gave us a big round of applause.

(edit) And holy crap news travels fast in this community. :)

[Dave]

man does that ever get my blood boiling...that is a complete abuse of power by the police. Disgusting. If I was a lawyer I'd take whatever legal action I could against the police department and I sure hope the folks out east make a big stink in the media about this!

[MitS]

Don't these clowns realize that shutting down legitimate motorsports events will only force people to do it elsewhere? It's a sad day for everyone when stuff like this happens.

[TFGR]

Originally posted by MitS
Don't these clowns realize that shutting down legitimate motorsports events will only force people to do it elsewhere? It's a sad day for everyone when stuff like this happens.

Ya....what he said!:mad:

[gatherer]

well I'm saddened I shed a tear for them in Nova Scotia....

I hope this doesn't happen here... I mean yes police hang around our events and ticket people on public roads ... but we tell them where to be .... I wonder if they'd start shutting us down if we didn't let them know and they happened to come across us......

[Rob McAuley]

That is truely scary. Running on private property, blocked off to the public. How is that different from a race track?

Unfortunately, the only way to beat this may be to hold another event, have the cops ticket someone, then take it to court.

I would hope that they can show that this is a legitimate sport, run across Canada and the US. Sounds like some silly local "dry county". You can do this everywhere in North America - except Truro.

[Marsh]

Wow I guess I am one of the old hands around here. Aperrently none of you remember when this happened at the WOSCA regional in 1998. The police had recieved noise complaints. We demonstrated that a nearby lawnmowr was 10dB louder then our loudest car, and politely told them where to shove it. 5 minutes later they came back with a written letter from mall management asking them to evict us. The mall management later told our solo director that police complained to him that we were operating in an unsafe manner and they needed his permission to kick us out before we killed someone. Of course we weren't opperating in an unsafe manner, infact the area we were using was FENCED off. The police never even mentioned anything about safety to us. Ever since we don't even look at lots with more than two houses nearby.

[miataboi]

To quote Chuck D:

"Fight the POWER!"

And Flava Flav:
"I gotz a right to be hostile, man... my people been persecuted!"

[AcidGord]

Luckily in this situation the lot owner is very much on our side and has already invited us back for next year. Which is very heartening. We lost an entire series of lots last year due to a police complaint to management about safety as well. (The stop box pointed towards a public road that was over a curb, up a hill and with plenty of runoff room, but still nothing that couldn't have been changed if we'd been asked on the spot). The police never came to us at the event at all, just directly called the office of the grocery store chain, the management of the store was told not to allow us to return)

I'm still composing my letter to the various officials but I know I personally talked to at least 3 spectators who were all about midnight street racing who were very much looking for alternatives. Then not 10 minutes later we get shut down by the police. Where's the appeal for them now?

We haven't had a single problem with the Halifax police (Truro is about an hour away) and I hope very much that will continue. Our end of the year regional events are the first week of October and we'll see what comes of it. The Truro situation is definitely not over.

Thanks for all of your support folks. The national (International! We've had responses from Florida) outcry can only show them we're not a bunch of twits trying to pretend we're Schumachers.

[MitS]

Originally posted by miataboi
To quote Chuck D:

"Fight the POWER!"

And Flava Flav:
"I gotz a right to be hostile, man... my people been persecuted!"

"Fear of an autocross planet"

[Mohawk]

I hope everyone realizes that the only guys in the pictures with body armour are also the only guys carring guns. These sort of Gestapo tactics of intimidation are a clear demonstration of a double standard. The only difference is the color of these guys shirts (they're not brown).

It seems, in NS you are Guilty until proven innocent. How many of these rights violations are acted out by the weak links in the law enforcement of this country.

If these cops were so worried about the safety of spectators, why didn't they pitch in and set the standard. They are hired to Serve and Protect. These 2 are a fine example of a weak screening system or a waste of skin. More children of GOD cleverly disguised as IDIOTS (with guns)

These clowns continue to lower the standard.

[Peter Lejbjuk]

Wow... thats just plain wrong what happened out there.

I can't belive that the police would be that ignorant, they clearly have a weak grasp on the reality of street racing.

Perhaps a petition circulating on the web and eventualy finding its way to the desk of their police cheif (he probably doesn't have a computer being at out of touch) would illustrate the fact that he chose to distrupt a legitimate and organized sport. Mind you... by the sounds of their ego's... it could also make matters worse.

-Pete

[tanney]

Bummer. Cops with guns and body armor.

Yes, we are criminals and should all be locked up, just like murderers. Quick cover your childrens eyes so they don't see those bad autocrossers!

[AlienDNA]

Originally posted by Mohawk
I hope everyone realizes that the only guys in the pictures with body armour are also the only guys carring guns. These sort of Gestapo tactics of intimidation are a clear demonstration of a double standard. The only difference is the color of these guys shirts (they're not brown).



Sorry, but as a (now lapsed) Legion member and the son and grandson of vets, I find this kind of offensive.

What happened in Truro is a crying shame, but if you think it's on the level of what happened in Europe in the '30s and '40s......:rolleyes:

[Gary]

Too bad about what happened, I feel sorry about that. It's not good to get shut down by some overzealous police. I live in a town where a publicly owned parking lot is used by a local Club for autocross events. At a recent event, I recall hearing at the drivers meeting about the things the club does to ensure continued use of the lot. A lot of what they do is just common sense to maintain the goodwill of the lot owner, and I'm sure other clubs do it too. One other thing I also remember them mentioning is the in-person visit to the police station in advance of the event, documents in hand, like permission from the lot owner, insurance, dates and times, etc. to make sure the police know in advance what is going to happen, when, and what the event is all about. At the events I've either attended or competed in, the police have shown up every time, watched, smiled, and left. I don't have any idea if it would help or hinder, but I recall thinking that the club was wise to take the steps to get the police on side, maybe at a senior level, to deal with potential misunderstandings at the junior level on the day of the event.

Don't know if that was done in this instance or even if it would have helped. However, it might be worth a try.

Gary

[Peter Lejbjuk]

Raise a Stink (http://www.nmanley.012webpages.com/letters.html)

Someone composed a page on the ordeal, and included some email adresses of city officials.

-Pete

[AcidGord]

As a new development for those who haven't been following the ARMS thread there is now a meeting scheduled between the club president and Solo Director with the Deputy Chief of Police (Chief is on Vacation) this Friday to discuss the matter.

The outcome is sure to be interesting.

[Dave]

wow, let us know how this pans out Gord! Should we be writing letters to the Major and Chief of Police or will that just aggrevate the situation?

[AcidGord]

Hard to say at this point. I don't know that we've gotten much response beyond the setup for the meeting. I think as long as the letters are polite and constructive as I'm sure they would be they can't hurt.

The response we've gotten from all over the place (Clubs as far away as Calgary and Florida have weighed in on the matter without our even advertising it) has been amazing and I don't think these folks had any idea what they were getting themselves into. :) They may have never heard of organized autocrossing before, but I'm sure they know all about it now! :)

[Dave]

excellent! Glad you guys have received so much support. I think I'll write a polite and constructive not to the Major :)

[TFGR]

Let us know what happens at the meeting!

[AcidGord]

Originally posted by TFGR
Let us know what happens at the meeting!

Okay. :)

This was just posted to the ARMS message board by our club president:


I personally would like to thank everyone who took the time and patience to email their displeasure to the Police Department in Truro concerning last weekend's adventure. Mike Benjamin arranged a meeting with the Deputy Chief of Police and Dave hull and I also tagged along. Interest was expressed to accommodate Solo events in the future. Following is the minutes of the meeting:

Dear Sir,
Following are the minutes of the meeting held this morning between yourself; Bill Anwyll, President, Atlantic Sports Car Club; Mike Benjamin, Solo Director, Atlantic Sports Car Club; Dave Hull, Regional Solo Director, Atlantic Regional Motor Sport, ASN/FIA.

Representatives ofthe Atlantic Sports Car Club presented information to Deputy Chief Rogers outlining the rules, procedures and insurance requirements of ASN/FIA sanctioned Solo II events. In addition, a brief description of the events of Sunday, September 14 were reviewed. It was stated that the Atlantic Sports Car Club had been organizing such events since 1955 without incident. The frustration of the competitors and members of the Atlantic Sports Car Club as well as motorsport enthusiasts across North America was expressed to Deputy Chief Rogers.

Deputy Chief Rogers expressed the Town of Truro's concern that this situation was affecting the reputation of the Truro Police Service and the Town of Truro in the eyes of the public. Deputy Chief Rogers noted that the threat to lay charges for tire squealing was precipitated by the Chief of Police, Ken MacLean's, interpretation of the Motor Vehicle Act, particularly Section 188. The first police officer was sent by Chief MacLean to investigate any safety issues. When the safety issues were addressed, a second group of officers were sent by Chief MacLean to stop the event by issueing tickets for "squealing of tires".

It wqas pointed out to Deputy Chief Rogers that the interpretation of the Motor Vehicle Act's definition of a public road was, in the opinion of legal counsel, Halifax Regional Police and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, flawed, as the area in question was a private parking lot and was made inaccessible to the public by pylons, warning tape and security marshalls. As such, the Motor Vehicle Act does not apply to the area used for the event.

Deputy Chief Rogers agreed that the intent of the meeting was not to allocate blame but to seek a resolution to prevent the situation from happening again. In that view, Deputy Chief Rogers has met with the Mayor, Aldermen and the Police Commission to discuss how events such as this could be accommodated in the future.

If there are any errors or ommission in the above description of events, please contact me as soon as possible.

Sincerely,

Bill Anwyll
President
Atlantic Sports Car Club

[Dave]

well done, guys! Sounds like a very productive meeting and hopefully this will set a valuable precedent so that other regions can avoid this sort of problem in the future.

[Taylor]

Dave: Agreed but what a waste of time too... this shouldn't have been necessary.

For the Cheif of Police to think the MVA applies to a parking lot. *sigh*. I've always been told Parking Lots are to be treated as "unassumed roads" and you assume all risk.

i.e. if someone doesn't stop at a stop sign in a parking lot, cops can't issue you a ticket, same with driving "outside the lines" and all that jazz.

Course you can file civil charges if someone t-bones you in the parking lot or whatever, but they can't be charged with dangerous driving or any sort of thing like that.

And of course this is totally obvious since these events have been happening for 50 years in parking lots across North America.

In fact, a cop shouldn't be able to issue you a ticket for doing burnouts in a parking lot... as long as it's approved by the owner. I suspect the only thing they can get you for is tresspassing, or causing a disturbance (if it's over a certain dB or deemed "excessive") since that's not a Motor Vehicle Act specific law/bylaw/infraction/whatever.

[AcidGord]

The unofficial word from consulting the RCMP is that the MVA applies to lots if they are accessible from public roads. The question comes when you consider we had the entire lot blocked off with cones/caution tape so it was no longer accessible. Comes down to interpretation as to what constitutes blocked off.

[Dave]

hmm, well that seems to bode well for our continued use of the Brampton Center, since the parking lot isn't accessible by any public roads, just roads and other lots on the property itself.

[Keith-02Accord]

Any other developments with respect to this?

[AcidGord]

The last info was posted by our Solo Director, looks like things are still churning. I suspect after a week on Vacation the Chief has a lot more on his list than dealing with us. We've had positive responses from City Councillors and officials that were also mailed on the matter as well.


The deputy Chief seemed like a decent guy and he claims to be an enthusist as well. At the end of the meeting he said he wanted to try solo 2 out for himself. He took a police driving school held at selmon park, which he thought was fun.

It would seem that the only previous experience they had with any car enthusists in the past has been the corvette club. That was a few years ago, and they had to give them the boot as well, which isn't that surprising considering the reputation that club has in our area. The corvette club is an independant group with no allifation with arms/asn/fia. Little rules either, the bigger the slide/burnout; the better job of driving your doing. No wonder they had a preconception about us. Your emails are going to the right people, Glen had a stack on his desk.The chief is back next week and Deputy Glen Rogers said a resolution will be forthcoming asap.

[281ESP]

Things are different in my home region:

http://www.vcmc.ca/pastnews/cop2.jpg

http://www.vcmc.ca/mainpage.html

Maybe even this example can help in your efforts. Good luck.

[AcidGord]

Get this... posted by our Solo Director this afternoon. Because of Hurricane Juan we find outselves in need of making up a cancelled regional event. Home Depot is great to us but they have some repairs/cleanup to do themselves to the thought was put forth to give Truro a chance to redeem themselves... here's what we got.

I had a conversation with Chief Ken Maclean today, and it didn't resolve anything. He hasn't talked to any city councilers or the Mayor about the Sept 14 mess and didn't show any willingness to do so either. He gave me the impression that he could care less about what anybody else thought. He said what we were doing was wrong and he would enforce the MVA act. He said having marshalls and cordoning off the area wouldn't prevent bystanders and non competing vehicles from entering. Doesn't police use police tape, do locals barrel thru that? His response to my comment that next season don't be surprised if we show up for another event and take your tickets and have the courts settle the matter was "been there, done that".
Let the letter writing continue....

[MiG-29 Foxbat]

Hmm...this may make for a good Sunday evening TV movie.:D

[Keith-02Accord]

Sounds like somebody is on a power trip...what a %E%$#@ pr$%ck!!!!

Sorry for the language, but what a moron.

[Dave]

seriously Keith, sounds like they're dealing with a real cowboy of a Police Chief out there. This may end up in court before anything is resolved. What a shame :(

Time to write a letter to the Mayor of Truro everyone!

[Cliffy]

Originally posted by Dave
Time to write a letter to the Mayor of Truro everyone!

From what was reported at the last ASN Solo Committee Conference call a weeks or so ago, the ARMS Solo Director had a very lengthy talk w/ city councillors/mayor/deputy chief of police w/ positive results. City officials were concerned how the Sept. 14 incident has affected to town's reputation and have asked the police chief to resolve the issue. I don't know why there's been a sudden resistance to bringing about positive change.

Perhaps ARMS should get in touch w/ the PACER program...especially the participants out in BC, to help plead the case from a police officer's point of view.

-c.

[TFGR]

Originally posted by Cliffy
From what was reported at the last ASN Solo Committee Conference call a weeks or so ago, the ARMS Solo Director had a very lengthy talk w/ city councillors/mayor/deputy chief of police w/ positive results. City officials were concerned how the Sept. 14 incident has affected to town's reputation and have asked the police chief to resolve the issue. I don't know why there's been a sudden resistance to bringing about positive change.

Perhaps ARMS should get in touch w/ the PACER program...especially the participants out in BC, to help plead the case from a police officer's point of view.

-c.

Anyone have the e-mail for any of the city councellors?
Who employs the police chief?
We should all send mail to the councellors weekly until the issue is resolved.
Can they get financial support for legal representation to fight tickets? Are any of the club members or participants, layers?
This still gets me upset when I read this thread!:mad:

[Marsh]

I'm thinking I might just start spaming everyone on a daily basis.

[Taylor]

If I know anything about munincipal politics, it's the Mayor that appoints the Chief of Police.

I would suspect if he/she has the power to bring them in, they should have the power to kick 'em out too..

[Ron]

Originally posted by Taylor
I would suspect if he/she has the power to bring them in, they should have the power to kick 'em out too..

Sounds like they need some California style politics there!

I vote Arnie for Police Cheif.

[Cliffy]

I've been following this issue on the various forums on-n-off and I feel it has been approached from the wrong angle. While I completely understand everyone's disappointment at the actions of Truro Police, getting an angry mob mentality to solve this problem is not the way to do it. That's the first thing that gets people in a defensive posture and then it just gets that much harder to affect change. Even if you do succeed in a legal battle, you'll never gain the respect from your opponent and the police will be constanty finding other ways to make life difficult for autocrossers. The war simply continues and next time it'll be under another section ofthe MVA or some other law/regulation.

Has anyone offered to invite the police for a day at an autocross so they can see/experience for themselves just how much fun it is and how safely and responsibliy events are run?

Given the national uproar over this, if one were an unenlightened observer, it would seem that the autocross community across the country has declared war against a local police force. I certainly do not want to give the impression that we hate cops and I hope the police reailze this.

I think the PR battle is the way to go in this case. Lobby your community and gain support from them in addition to your efforts w/ the authorities.

[TFGR]

Originally posted by Taylor

I would suspect if he/she has the power to bring them in, they should have the power to kick 'em out too..

Exactly! It sounds like the "you'll get more bees with honey" approach has just (excuse the pun) made a sticky mess! If there is no law to uphold.....it becomes harrasment. Let the city councellors know that you intend to fight this in court. Use the political process to remind the police chief he works for the people........and then......Go to court to fight this.