Ban on Hoosiers revisited

[Dave Barker]

Last year , I suggested (SOMEWHAT tongue in cheek) that due to the,at least perceived, disproportionate success of Hoosier runners both in our series and in the SCCA runoffs, Pro solo nationals etc. that we should consider banning such a "killer" tire in an effort to keep costs down for the rest of us. Below is my tale of seduction.

In August at TMP I was stupid enough to seriously flat spot one of my Kumho Victoracers when my antilocks quit working coming into the chicane. Had I been smarter and faster to react rather than thinking it was someone else making that screeching noise I might have saved the tire. Be that as it may , I ruined 1 tire and neither a used or suitable new replacement tire could be found in Canada. Importing 1 tire from Tire Rack gets more expensive than I would like which left me set up when I was offered a set of "slightly used" Hoosiers for less money than it would cost me for 1 Kumho. I had heard the old warning that Hoosiers can "go off " without looking it and that they will not improve once they have but they looked SOOO good with lots of tread depth left. The seller was not aware of the age of the tires ( and Hoosier does not stamp a build date on their tires like all honest tire manufacturers do) but just how bad could they be??

Although they were only going to be mounted on 9" rims I trundled off to this past wkend at SMP with propositioning SGT3 in my mind and a high level of expectation. "Look out Sorensen, Heads up Atkins, Check your mirrors Adam" or so I thought. Imagine my suprise when my first session on Fabi was 1.7 seconds slower than my best on kumhos ( certainly not helped by a certain RSX's oil left at a few corners on the track) but during the day I consistantly went slower, not faster like a lot of others. I haven't driven with this much opposite lock ( for you front drivers that is when you turn the steering wheel the wrong way) ever. I thought I was auditioning for a "Starsky and Hutch " stunt drive job or at least practicing for an upcoming drifting contest.

The next day at the Pro track was only slightly better. I could get the rear under better control with some fiddling with tire pressures but my best time was 2.3 seconds slower than my best 2 years ago on worn out Kumhos. As usual being seduced by claims of high performance rarely leaves one satisfied.

In summary then I would like to modify my original proposal to only ban new Hoosiers and allow ones that have been heat cycled numerous times to run as they please.

P.s. Many thanks to those of you who have looked at the results of events 11 and 12 and NOT e mailed me about my drinking habits.

[Chris91GT]

And to think that I was going to join you in that same line of thought... especially the "Check your mirrors Adam" part.

Alas, while I had the tires ready and waiting, I had no transmission... still don't actually.

[ADAM]

you know where you can put your "detroit iron"

:)

[tanney]

for you front drivers that is when you turn the steering wheel the wrong way I may drive a front drive car, but as I found out on Saturday morning at SMP, front wheel drive can oversteer as much or more than rear wheel drive.:D

[Rob McAuley]

Dave Barker wrote: we should consider banning such a "killer" tire in an effort to keep costs down for the rest of us
Actually, 3 sets of Hoosiers may cost less than a suspension upgrade!

[Marsh]

Originally posted by Rob McAuley
Dave Barker wrote:
Actually, 3 sets of Hoosiers may cost less than a suspension upgrade!

Sure if you buy a new suspension EVERY YEAR! And that would still have to be one hell of a suspension to be more expensive than 12 Hoosiers.

[Chris P]

damn fabric belted tires.
ban them all!!!

Too bad Hoos-ier-dady is coming out with a steal belted race tire that is suppposed to be faster then the current tire.




Krispy........seems to believe that spending well over 3000 a year on tires is rediculus.......... :confused:

[Dave Barker]

Originally posted by Rob McAuley

Actually, 3 sets of Hoosiers may cost less than a suspension upgrade! [/B]

Maybe for a BMW but I don't think I could spend that much on a Camaro even replacing everything.

[myronx19]

Hoosiers are indeed wayyy faster than most other DOT radials.

One reason why you may have actually gone so much slower is because Hoosier DOT (S3s), need to be set up appropriately. If your car has no camber adjustment, and your alignment isn't perfectly ideal, then yes, you will go slower.

My fastest time around Mosport (big track) on Hoosiers was disappointing, I though, wow, more money should equal a faster tire. I put on a VERY old set of Hankooks and I went faster?!?!

I then took the car and set it up properly, paying close attention to tire temps and how the car 'felt' (especially under braking, it was darting about, too much toe out up front).

After some suspension adjustments, whamo!!! I beat my fastest lap at Mosport by 4 seconds with the Hoosiers!!

They are super sensitive, you start moving the steering wheel, and BANG you are turning. There is no "set" taking place, especially with a car without rubber in the suspension (all spherical). Hoosiers require total confidence, more than you can imagine (at least at Mosport) because there is a SUPER fine line between holding on, and going off!!!!!!!! and it comes without warning!!!!!

I wouldn't put a ban on Hoosiers. Although, I don't plan on running them ever again (wayyyy too expensive). I'm coming back into Solo 1, most likely on Toyos or Hankooks, cheap, stick well and fast enough to be competitive.

[Chris P]

Myron, YOUR coming back to solo 1?? really, whys that?

BTW, for those that don't know myron ran SOLO 1 in 2000 and was one of the original campers. :p

PS, i found the hankooks to be about 2-2.5 secounds a lap slower then the hoosiers.

[myronx19]

Chris!!

I'm coming back so that I can try and beat you guys!!

hehe, funny thing, on my way to work one day a few years back, I saw this little Black CRX followed by a S2000, hehe, I knew it was you two heading up to the track.

Well, road racing is just, well, EXPENSIVE as all hell!!

The entry fees used to be $235/event weekend, and was a lot of fun. The fees are now $325 pre-registered and $350 not preregistered for sprint series races/weekend, PLUS you had to buy a transponder (over $400 which I did do).


I will still keep my regional race licence though, just gonna get some seat time in my friend Fabio's X1/9 or his brothers X1/9, but I'll only do one or two races next year, more than likely at Shannonville. Ah, I've also sold my race car, I'll build another X1/9 soon enough!


Also, I suppose the time I was devoting to the racing was getting out of hand, I worked all day at a job, then went to the shop to work on the car all night!!! hehe, BUT, it is serious fun.

My 1982 Fiat X1/9 is my baby, which I've had since 1989. It handles well enough, and I rarely get to drive it, SOOOOO why not bring it and Solo 1 it!! However, I won't be 'roughing' it in my van this time!! I may have to pitch a tent and camp out, since I won't be trailering this beast.

Hope to see all of you next year. Chris, all the road racers would probably be scared if you joined 'em!! I'd imagine you kicking ass in the Sentra series or something!!!

[Dave Barker]

Originally posted by myronx19
.

One reason why you may have actually gone so much slower is because Hoosier DOT (S3s), need to be set up appropriately. If your car has no camber adjustment, and your alignment isn't perfectly ideal, then yes, you will go slower.


Myron, I have about neg 2.7 camber and zero toe. I asked around and was told Hoosier's like higher pressures so started at 5 lb higher than I used with Kumhos. I started letting out some air and went slower on Sat and a slight bit faster on Sunday .

I tried diving them soft and tender like and then hard and not so tender with no change in speeds

BTW the "Fingernail durometer" test says that they were harder than my old Ecstas but I'm not sure that means anything.

Any idea why they are not stamped with the week of manufacture??

[Chris P]

Originally posted by myronx19
[B]Chris!!

I'm coming back so that I can try and beat you guys!!

hehe, funny thing, on my way to work one day a few years back, I saw this little Black CRX followed by a S2000, hehe, I knew it was you two heading up to the track.


Yeah i don't imagine there are too many Black CRX's chasing or being chased by S2000's on our local highways :p However the S2000 was sold in march 2002 and currently the old man is chasing me in a silver Celica GT.


Well, road racing is just, well, EXPENSIVE as all hell!!


no shit :p



My 1982 Fiat X1/9 is my baby, which I've had since 1989. It handles well enough, and I rarely get to drive it, SOOOOO why not bring it and Solo 1 it!! However, I won't be 'roughing' it in my van this time!! I may have to pitch a tent and camp out, since I won't be trailering this beast.

The camping numbers have growin somewhat since the old days and so have the size of the fires. One weekend at cayuga we had a good 30 foot flame as people were throwing methonal onto the fire.



Hope to see all of you next year. Chris, all the road racers would probably be scared if you joined 'em!! I'd imagine you kicking ass in the Sentra series or something!!!

Thats the plain

[myronx19]

Originally posted by Dave Barker
I have about neg 2.7 camber and zero toe. I asked around and was told Hoosier's like higher pressures so started at 5 lb higher than I used with Kumhos. I started letting out some air and went slower on Sat and a slight bit faster on Sunday .



Hi Dave,

2.7 degrees negative may or may not be enough negative to get the most out of the Hoosier R3S03 radials.

They have incredibly stiff sidewalls, so there is very little compliance, you've also noticed how incredibly light they are (less rotational mass at the extreme OD).

Typically, you set up your camber requirements as to your driving style. My car set up at -3 degree negative on the rear with a more experienced and faster driver may not be enough (on DOT tires of course). Only tire temperatures will tell you everything you need to know.

In fact, a wise race gave me this advice: Myron, buy an adjustable wrench first, THEN a Pyrometer!!! I have an Omega Piercing type probe, don't buy a real racer one, they are really expensive and they are just usually rebranded Professional ones. Its a great tool, will help with tire pressures as well (too hot in the middle? too much pressure, etc...) Infrared pyrometers work, but they need to be used properly (test RIGHT after a few hot laps, quickly!! otherwise the temps spread across the surface of the tire). Even if you have no camber adjustments, a pyrometer will come in handy to let you know what the tires are doing and where you can make improvements.

However, there were tires developed to help cars without camber adjustments, The BFG R1 was that tire! (sadly, no longer made, not the G-Force). It had assymetrical construction, the inner sidewall and outer sidewall were of different compliance (built in camber), you couldn't flip them around on the rim like you can with Hoosiers (once the tread is worn).

I blew through a set of Hoosiers because I didn't have enough negative camber, sad way to see $1000 go in 3 half hour sprint races.

However, once tuned up (literally with a string alignment, el-cheapo magnetic camber gauge and my trusty Omega pyrometer! all done trackside), I went out, and voila!!!!!! FAST!!!

They are the closest thing to driving on slicks.

I have tried slicks, -1 degree negative camber, zero toe on both ends, you can't have any more negative camber, the insides would wear quickly and braking performance would be compromised (these were cantelever slicks, Bias Ply!!! with lots of gooey gription!) But, radials give the biggest bang for the buck.

Yes, the Kumhos are alright, but, I tell you, Toyo tires seem to do the job as well.


I'll be driving to the track with my race rubber on, so, Toyo have decent tread depth so the Police won't be bothering me too much. I think I wouldn't get too much mileage with the Hoosiers.

Of course, I'm no expert!! sometimes 'seat of the pants tuning' works as well!! (done it!)


In 2000, I won a set of BFG tires (my choice of any tire from BFG) through Solo 1!!!!!!! It was GREAT!!!!! Any awesome prizes like that still?!??

[Dave]

Myron, Yokohama is still a tire sponsor for Solo 1, so we were indeed giving away a set every weekend. I won a set myself this year :) Sweeeeeeeeet.....

Hopefully we can get a few more tire manufacturers back as sponsors next year so that folks running Toyos, Kumhos, Hankooks or other will have a chance at winning something too.