View Full Version : Dyno plot option
CobraStang
09-29-2003, 09:49 AM
This item in the rules only applies when 12 PIP's in the Engine and Drive Train section have been accumulated.
Q1: Intake and Cat-back are free mod's at Starting Class +1. Are they excluded from the 12 point total?
Q2: Why is there a 12 PIP minimum before the dyno option is available? I'm having my engine stroked right now (keep your mind out of the gutter!), and expect to have about 380HP at the crank. Using the Dyno option, this would give me a PI of 79.4 (5.2 PIP's higher than stock). However, based on the mods in progress, I will end up with a PI of 83.2 (stock + 9 PIP's). So it only makes sense to do even more mod's, making the car even faster, and actually drop the PI! Doesn't that seem counter-intuitive?
Chris91GT
09-29-2003, 10:13 AM
If it's free... of course you should add more HP! :D
Russ, the dyno plot option does including PIPs that later become authorized, so you would count the intake and exhaust. Use your raw PIP total to see if your car qualifies to use the dyno plot option.
The reason we've set the PIP requirement so high before allowing the dyno plot option is that we don't want competitors with relatively minor engine work trying to take advantage of the system. We put the dyno plot option in place because we're aware of the fact that the more an engine is modified the harder it is to predict its power production with the PIP schedule. So in an effort to classify heavily modified cars as fairly as possible, we introduced the dyno plot option this year. It's been an experiment, and one that it not without its limitations or shortcomings. I cannot gaurantee if or how the dyno plot option will be presented next year, so I think at this point your best bet is to build your car with the PIP system as your guide or wait for the 2004 rulebook before finalizing your car's set-up.
If you'd like to share your thoughts on this or anything else Solo 1 rulebook related, come on out to the workshop on the morning of November 1st at the Sheraton North (same location as the Solo banquet).
Cheers,
Dave
Chris P
09-29-2003, 05:43 PM
Q2: Why is there a 12 PIP minimum before the dyno option is available? I'm having my engine stroked right now (keep your mind out of the gutter!), and expect to have about 380HP at the crank. Using the Dyno option, this would give me a PI of 79.4 (5.2 PIP's higher than stock). However, based on the mods in progress, I will end up with a PI of 83.2 (stock + 9 PIP's). So it only makes sense to do even more mod's, making the car even faster, and actually drop the PI! Doesn't that seem counter-intuitive?
Russ, one other thing to keep in mind is that the PIP schedule is assuming you have done the optimal mods. That is, using the best and most aggressive parts available. Perhaps if you stroked it a little more (get your mind outta the gutter) you would get some more power aligning it with the actual PIP's taken?? One other thing is actually weighing the real benefit of that mod, are you going to be faster on the track in you put shocks in your car or if you P&P a head, both are worth 3PIP's..... And lastly you need to considering matching everything when modify. Lets say you do all this work however leave a bottle neck such as a high flow cat, or mediocre header. In that case you won't be near the 9pip potential however if you put that hiflow header or cat in you'll see a huge benefit and will be allot closer to that 9pip potential.
Krispy..........who is scared to think what russ will come up with in his vast amounts of free time.
CobraStang
09-29-2003, 08:30 PM
Well, none of the engine work was "planned". Its just that it makes sense to do certain things while its being completely torn down.
Compression= 2 PIP
Stroker= 3 PIP
Headers= 2 PIP
ECU Chip= 2 PIP
CAI= 1 PIP
Cat back= 1 PIP
TOTAL = 11 PIP
I guess I need to find one more PIP (hopefully a cheap one!). In a few more years, I'd like to get it blown, then maybe keep up with the 'Vettes! I guess that means no P&P.
This doesn't include stuff like clutch (was already going), and flywheel.
Russ, put an adjustable fuel pressure regulator on there and/or upgrade the fuel pump (which you'll probably need anyway) and you've got the 1 extra PIP you need. An adjustable FPR is not a big investment and it is a useful tuning tool at the dyno.
CobraStang
09-30-2003, 09:18 AM
I thought 2 PIP's for chipping the ECU (6.1.C.1) includes fuel management (6.1.C.4)?
LOL...I love it when "rookies" like Russ know the rulebook better than me. Yes indeed, you do get fuel management with the ECU chip! I will go back to smacking myself on the head now...
Chris91GT
09-30-2003, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by CobraStang
In a few more years, I'd like to get it blown, then maybe keep up with the 'Vettes! I guess that means no P&P.
I considered a Vortech when I was building up the 302 last winter (also unscheduled after the valvesprings started to fatigue). I chose to go the NA route with new heads and intake. Instead of adding 100hp + boost pressure + additional load on the crank + 50lbs hanging off the top of the motor... I gained 100hp - 30lbs (heads) + incredible throttle response from the NA setup + great reliability. Going NA was the best choice I made last year. The driveability of the setup with the chassis is incredible.
I actually thought that an extra 100hp would make the car very skittish and tricky to drive over stock, but it did exactly the opposite. With the chassis/suspension setup in the 91, the 100hp gain "woke up" the entire package.
Dave Barker
09-30-2003, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by CobraStang
Well, none of the engine work was "planned". Its just that it makes sense to do certain things while its being completely torn down.
Compression= 2 PIP
Stroker= 3 PIP
Headers= 2 PIP
ECU Chip= 2 PIP
CAI= 1 PIP
Cat back= 1 PIP
TOTAL = 11 PIP
Since the CAI and Cat back are free in plus one classes do they count in the 12 PIP engine mods?
Dr. Dave, since the dyno plot rule doesn't state that 'authorized mods' need to be removed from this count, I would say that the CAI and cat-back exhaust (and any other authorized engine mods) should and do count towards the 12 PIP requirement to qualify to use this section of the rulebook. But we should clarify this rule for 2004 in this regard and also look at adopting more accurate drivetrain loss conversion rates for FWD, AWD, and RWD cars. And so on :)
Chris P
10-01-2003, 01:12 AM
cough accountability of torque cough cough........
ScotcH
10-01-2003, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by Chris P
cough accountability of torque cough cough........
I second that motion ... and make sure mass is in there somewhere :)
yes yes, and lets include inertia and gravity and a constant representing the size of the universe! Yes, lets make this as complicated as we possibly can, since we've learned from experience that complicated is always better.
Ugh...
lets just go back to my formula system..and do it right :)
hehe...yeah, Adam is all about simplicity and ease of use...NOT!
yes i am...to the average person the formula is just hidden..and only a few parameters get plugged in ...
)P
ha ha
lower rung weasel
Dave Barker
10-01-2003, 08:08 PM
If Torque is such a winning thing to have why are high torque cars totally absent from the top 10 overall finishers?? Certainly the arguement that wgt needs to be taken into account holds at least as much water. I really think the advantages of the linear CCC system are that it is simple and it works. In other words if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Now to get 500 lb out of my car ....
Chris P
10-01-2003, 10:39 PM
Old Dave, we have a lot to discuss in the coming months. I hope you have time to read lenghty emails :p
But really, there are some anomalis that need to be taken care of.
the first anomoly to be taken care of should be Krispy as Solo 1 Champ! :p
And um, how about we discuss this via e-mail since we're all on the CCC? Sheesh...
Chris P
10-02-2003, 12:14 AM
in good time
CobraStang
10-06-2003, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by Chris91GT
I I chose to go the NA route with new heads and intake.
I hear what you're saying, and I think I will still have the option of either NA or SC. All the internals are forged, and I'll have 10:1 compression. There's a lot to be said for the front/rear weight ratio advantage of NA route.
My concern with heads and cams is streetability. I would like to drive the car back and forth from the track, and around town in the summer. Won't aggressive head work negatively impact on driveability (eg. idling)?
DECH_92
10-06-2003, 11:38 AM
10.5 compression
.533 lift
Idle 1000 rpm
SWEET:D
Plus a little bit of horsepower and torque
Plus you need all these things for a SC setup, without the compression.
The extra weight on the front end and how our cars like to push?
Think hard if is for a track car.
SC will double your cost.
Chris91GT
10-08-2003, 12:44 PM
No idle problem here! The only driveability issue that I have is a low-speed (ie, 5-10kph) lugging. So I just give it more gas!
TYSON
10-09-2003, 10:47 PM
We have to keep the dyno rule, or I will end up with 30 engine PIP!! This is AFTER eliminating points for +1 and +4 classing and doubled points from ECU and fuel system. :eek:
38 raw points in section 6.1 :mad: I should have just selected the JATO rocket!
Estimating hp and using the power to weight ratio used for classification brings a more reasonable 15 PIP for engine mods.
my gawd Tyson, what have you done to your car???
TYSON
10-09-2003, 11:16 PM
Put a properly done aftermarket turbo kit on a factory turbo car and call me back!:D :mad:
Adding an aftermarket turbo setup to a factory turbo charged car adds 16 points, adding a turbo to a non turbo charged car adds 13 points! This does not take into account intercoolers, ECU upgrades, fuel system upgrades or porting. But we discussed all that in the spring.
It could be worse. Just a quick glance puts the engine from a certain Talon at at least 10 points higher than me, thanks to it being a piston engine with a modified head and larger-than-stock displacement.
If we don't have a dyno option we'd have to figure out a way to tell the difference between someone with a lot of engine mods using street gas and someone with a lot of mods using race gas, as it is legal and free to use race gas under present rules.
94 octane vs 116 octane = big horsepower difference, yet
increasing compression 1 point vs increasing compression 5 points = no PIP difference.
15 psi boost vs 25 psi boost = BIG difference
IMO i feel the pips are fair, its just that no one does things to "race specs"
thats why things get out of wack....
i am against "dyno" plots since its very easy to change power levels....
TYSON
10-10-2003, 09:24 AM
When you pile a lot of points on you easily reach a point of diminishing returns.
Porting a rotary is the perfect example. A simple street port might add 20% horsepower to a N/A rotary. Going to a peripheral port can add 100% power. These net you the same amount of points.
On a turbo rotary that peripheral port will never add 100% power, only 25% at best.
As for "race spec". A power to weight ratio of 0.1 lb/hp still is only the equivalent of 26 PIP in my car. This is 28,000 hp in a 2800 lb car.
Like I said, point of diminishing returns. And if you want to cheat at this level, you are a sad, sad individual. Anyone who wants a rule book like NASCAR, raise your hand.
I will have a dyno plot available, because it will be tuning data done for MY OWN knowledge.
that is correct...there is diminishing returns...it actually works out that way very well within the rules....
i agree certain modifications do have more benifits than others...thats why they must be choosen well....
the cheapest PIP mod of all is the suspension mods....
engine mods unless done well...are mostly wasted PIPS...and end up bumping people into classes that are very well prepared..or pretty much dedicated race cars..
ice/solo racer
10-13-2003, 02:06 PM
Well its official,I'll be in SGT1 next year with the crx as Dave just gave me my new PI for an '88 with B16 power.The car sits at 84.6 points out of 85,and thats with a stock engine(just a header,less weight is good).
Dave seems to think that 160ish hp will be enough to be competitive with Adams turbo,Chris and his na mustang among the other guys with over double the power(but not double the weight)I'm less optimistic:D .
I guess I'll try the "very well prepared...pretty much dedicated race cars"formula:cool:
Chris91GT
10-13-2003, 06:14 PM
SGT3 you mean. ;)
This is going to be quite the class in '04. 240SX, a couple of Mustangs, Civics, Integra, Talon, M Roadster. FWD, AWD, RWD. 4-cyl, 6-cyl, 8-cyl. NA, Turbo. 1.6L, 1.8L, 2L, 3.2L, 5L.
What a mix. :D
ice/solo racer
10-13-2003, 07:17 PM
Yep I did mean sgt3,I've had gt1 on the brain trying to figure out what to change to go down to that class.
FYI, any points you're taking in the 'Body & Trim' section are definitely the most "expensive" in the sense that 1 PIP doesn't necessarily translate to much weight savings. Weight is definitely the enemy when building an all-out road race car, but for Solo 1 the PIP cost to significantly lighten a car is very high relative to the other categories of modification.
IMO the place to cut PIPs from your total is in the 'Body & Trim' section first, the 'Engine and Drivetrain' section second, and the 'Suspension & Running Gear' section last. And, of course, you absolutely have to maximize your use of the Allowable Mods.
This is, of course, a generalization and you have to be aware of the relative strengths/weaknesses of your car and take into consideration how easily it'll make power, where you can take the most weight out for the least number of PIPs, etc.
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