Continued CNAC discussions

[Marsh]

Well as some of you know there has been a little debate about whether or not to use CNAC rules for WOSCA's fall series. It was suggested to me that we score both to see the difference, when it occured to me that I could simply reclass the summer series and see what we get.

So for your amusement here are the original and CNAC versions of the 2003 WOSCA Summer Slalom series:

Original: http://www.wosca.com/Downloads/2003%20Summer%20Slalom%20Results.xls

CNAC: http://www.cockyracingguy.com/2003%20Summer%20Slalom%20Results-CNAC.xls

Some of the classes might be wrong, as I didn't have the cars or drivers with me when I classed them.

I think I might start looking for an H - Stock winter beater...

[Chris P]

1st gen CRX DX's go into HS & Si's into Gs and then both go CSS CSP

[Marsh]

Originally posted by Chris P
1st gen CRX DX's go into HS & Si's into Gs and then both go CSS CSP

F/SS:Honda CRX 1300 ('84 - '87)

The both of the 1st gen CRX's in WOSCA are 87 or before and I'm pretty sure Reg's is a 1300 not a 1500 (Dave's is a 1500 for sure, thanks on that one).

[Marsh]

OK here's a version with CASC-OR pax factors as well (since WOSCA uses it's own).

http://www.cockyracingguy.com/2003%20Summer%20Slalom%20Results-CASC.xls

[Chris P]

Reg's is a 1.5 just like mine. :rolleyes:

[Chris P]

actually just like mine used to be........

[ice/solo racer]

OK krispy I'll bite,what did you do?.

[Chris P]

nothing really, i just converted it from Carbated to fuel injected......hence my totally wack SOLO 2 class.......csp..please all i have is springs :D


under the old SOLO 1 rules i could use an "update backdate rule" which stretched to engine swaps with special dispensation. With this i gained 5hp.......whipty doo and also have a rev limit now. And i really liked spining it to 8000rpm with a 6500rpm redline :cool:

So basically my car went from a DX model to a SI model.......

[ToyotaAutoXer]

After driving Reg's CRX the car definitely seems fast enough to compete a class higher than FSS, but I drive a Paseo, so everything seems fast, and Reg is still a far better driver than I am.

[rpr]

Originally posted by Chris P
With this i gained 5hp.......whipty doo

Riiigggghhhhttt......

[Chris P]

91 - 86= 5hp........

booo to you rpr boi

I have some extra ponies from other stuff. If i were to do it all over again i would just put webbers on.....

[ice/solo racer]

I thought you might have something like a zc or even a b series swap.:)

[rpr]

You dyno'ed 86 to the wheels with the DX?

[281ESP]

the CNAC and very similar CACC PAX factors always favour stock classes, especially those in the G to H range. But with 5-16+ competitors in each class, the most important thing is winning your class, not an overall PAX championship.. (?)

My preference would be to just use the SCCA rulebook, but... I think there's much more opposition to that!

[Marsh]

Originally posted by 281ESP
the CNAC and very similar CACC PAX factors always favour stock classes, especially those in the G to H range. But with 5-16+ competitors in each class, the most important thing is winning your class, not an overall PAX championship.. (?)

My preference would be to just use the SCCA rulebook, but... I think there's much more opposition to that!

5-16? I can count on my hand the number of times I had more that 2 in my class this year! And we had less classes than CNAC/SCCA

[281ESP]

Hmm that could prove to be problematic :)

There is a tendency though.. I believe at least... that a class-centric ruleset encourages people to congregate in classes... so at least in the long term, i'm sure people will gravitate towards various popular ones in the CNAC rulebook (ESP for the muscle car guys, CSS and CSP for the Civic/Miata crowd, DSS for the Neon and Golf people, etc. etc.)

It builds an incredible amount of competitive energy and a "don't blame the car" attitude that can really propel the sport.

Just my 2 cents..

[Marsh]

Yes we already have that in B family now, and that's exactly what we're trying to get away from. Class battle are good, but overall is important too. I'm getting sick and tired of people disrespecting me because I'm in an underfilled class, and I know I'm not alone.

[miataboi]

Originally posted by Marsh
Yes we already have that in B family now, and that's exactly what we're trying to get away from. Class battle are good, but overall is important too. I'm getting sick and tired of people disrespecting me because I'm in an underfilled class, and I know I'm not alone.

Don't blame the class...

See you next year... balls to the wall on every run! ;)

[roooo]

PAX factors always favour stock classes, especially those in the G to H range


G to H range? Surely you mean G and H stock classes ... there nothing in between those?



It builds an incredible amount of competitive energy and a "don't blame the car" attitude that can really propel the sport.


Except that in each class there is one car (sometimes two) that is the top car in the class. Some cars just cannot be competitive in a class, given drivers of equal ability in each car.

So if people are "gravitating" to classes, then next year there will be nothing but Integra Type-R, Mini Cooper, Celica GT running around.

:D

[281ESP]

Originally posted by roooo

Except that in each class there is one car (sometimes two) that is the top car in the class. Some cars just cannot be competitive in a class, given drivers of equal ability in each car.

So if people are "gravitating" to classes, then next year there will be nothing but Integra Type-R, Mini Cooper, Celica GT running around.

:D [/B]

This is more true for stock classes, but its not so true for the SS, SP and Mod classes. With respect to the Mini Cooper, it's obvious it doesn't belong where it is both in CNAC and SCCA rules which is why it'll most likely be moved.

Besides, it's logical to state that the more classes there are, the less likely there'll be a car that dominates that class, because there'll be a finer level of performance differentiation. If your concern is one or two cars dominating, then introducing more classes can only make that less likely.

[miataboi]

Originally posted by Marsh
Yes we already have that in B family now, and that's exactly what we're trying to get away from. Class battle are good, but overall is important too. I'm getting sick and tired of people disrespecting me because I'm in an underfilled class, and I know I'm not alone.

I think that there are a TONNE of VERY GOOD drivers in our series... many are under-rated...

Some... not ALL are... in no particular order...:

Joe T
Marshall
Steve T.
Tony M
Andrew
Paul K
Simon S
Tom S
etc.


PROBLEM... is that they are in TOTALLY different cars... and it's difficult to gauge how TRULY good a driver is ...for instance... I PERSONALLY BELIEVE... that Joe T. is one of the best and most UNDERRATED drivers in the series... but... because he drives a BOAT!
It's difficult to know TRULY how fast a guy is when you're all in different cars... Same with Paul K. It's easy to expect that he'll be a contender for FTD... the car's a monster... but how good is PAUL by himself... (I know that he's actually a GREAT driver... on fun-runs he's often within a coupla tenths of his white car... in Jamie's anemic silver one!!!)

THUS...

Drivers who are consistantly propositioning higher classes, getting FTD's, have a good attitude towards the nature / intent of the sport, appearing tenacious in the persuit of driver improvement and never giving up / slowing up... are those who get the respect and recognition.

I understand that some times... your fastest isn't always required to "win"... but doing so does get you respect.

[ice/solo racer]

Marsh I don't mean to give the impression of disrespect,I know you can drive as I've watched some of the runs that you actually try to go fast.I just find the overall a little frustrating,I'm not unhappy,quite the contrary as ending 3rd has me pretty happy indeed given the scoring system.
Its just that I'm more impressed with the results that I posted over the summer at individuall events than the combined overall,I'm not trying to pat my own back or anything but it WAS a great year for me.I've never boasted thru the season about being dominate or anything like that,I'm confident but think running off in the mouth is disrespectfull .Its just that even though the 2 people ahead of me did great jobs,both were in underfilled classes at nearly every event.Luckily for me I didn't really have the challenges I expected from Wes,Steve,Robb and the rest of the guys on a regular basis.Tony had me plenty worried at mosport,glad I snuck by on the last run! :cool: I even forced him to make a mistake and go slower on his last run.
Thanks Miataboi,to be placed in that group is an honour indeed-thanks,on the other hand if no one buys my corolla how are they ever gonna know wether its the car or the driver?;)

[Cliffy]

Originally posted by 281ESP
With respect to the Mini Cooper, it's obvious it doesn't belong where it is both in CNAC and SCCA rules which is why it'll most likely be moved.

Looking at 2003 Topeka results in HS, the Mini is not blowing away the rest of the competition so it's not likely it'll be re-classed. The older cars if well driven like the 318is and Honda Civic Si are still competitive. Since the CNAC/SCCA Stock class re-shuffle a year or so ago, there are still cars that have yet to reach their driver/development potential in the class.

I believe the HS Mini is going through a phase much like what happened when the original Neon came out. Its a great little car that many top drivers are gravitating towards.

In contrast the Cooper S is not as dominant in GS.

Cliff Loh
CNAC Director