What class would a 80' Z28 fall into? Part II

[RacerRick]

I have finalized my suspension plans and gone through the car to find out what is needed. I can finally get around to getting this thing catacorized.

Here are the fun parts:

1980 Camaro Z28 - 350ci V8 190hp stock
T-tops (which make the car flex like spagetti)
4 Speed
Factory F41 Performance suspension

Chassis Mods

Moroso aluminum subframe to body bushings
Homemade Weld In subframe connectors
Remove door impact bars
Remove sound deadener
8-point roll bar with additional sill bars.
Remove 15 mph bumpers and replace with steel bar
Driveshaft loop


Front suspension
Front Springs = Moog Big Block Heavy Duty Replacement# 5642 649lbs-in.
Koni Reds
Poly Bushings
Stock sway Bar
solid tie rod sleeves
Boxed the lower control arms
16” IROC Rims
245/50/16 Yoyo's
Non Stock Alignment
12” 1LE disk brake swap
Stock 1LE Metalic pads

Rear Suspension
Koni Reds
Poly bushings
Stock way bar
16” IROC rims
245/50/16 tires
Stock Springs
disk brake rear end from same year Trans Am

Drivetrain
350 ci chevrolet v8 (stock bore/stroke)
Custom Cam
Martin Turbo System
Holley Stock Q-jet replacement carb
Stock BW ST10 4 Speed

Interior
Racing Steering Wheel
Hurst Shifter
Racing bucket seats
racing harnesses
Power window :)

So what class would this fit into?

[MiG-29 Foxbat]

I think an 80' (80-foot) Z28 would have a hell of a time getting around any race track.:p

:mad:

Ok, I'll apologize right now :D

[RacerRick]

But its great at the drag strip.

I can get 60 ft times of 0.00 flat.

[exST165]

Originally posted by RacerRick

Drivetrain
350 ci chevrolet v8 (stock bore/stroke)
Custom Cam
Martin Turbo System


Apologies for not begin the most familiar with American Iron, but do you mean to say that you have a Turbocharger on that engine?

Dang that could be scarry: turbo lag meets flexible chassis!

[RacerRick]

Yup - it has a single RayJay 301EE turbo. About the Same as a T04B. Next to no lag on this low pressure system, but I am hoping that the mods allow me to use the Dyno plot instead, because this is low boost system.

The chassis is being stiffened considerably with the weld in subframe connectors, solid body bushings, and 8-point rollbar with extra sill bars connecting the main hoop to the forward down bars along the door sill, like a second set of subframe connectors.

The entire car, with the exception of the brakes is a clone of a SVD Camaro from the same year.

[Dave]

Rick, I'm crazy busy for the next couple of days, but I will get back to you on this over the weekend.

[ADAM]

rick are you going to bring this beast to ORF on saturday? awesome turbo V8....(you are the same racer rick right?)

only running a single turbo or twins?

[RacerRick]

Can't - family stuff, plus the turbo melted the starter wiring on the Mullet Camaro. It won't start!

Not that I have ever started it.

Its going to the shop for the winter to be completely torn apart for the Grassroots Motorsports $2004 Challenge.

You can see the ugly mother on www.phoenixforce.org.

[exST165]

Rick,
I can't believe that you got that diamond (albeit in the rough) for $488.00! That is the sort of find that GRM Challenge legends are made of!

I am definately interested in hearing (and seeing) how the car handels when you are through with it. Slagging the handeling is the last line of defence for import drivers against american iron, if you can match it with turbo v8 power for under $2004 USD then IMHO we should all be afraid, very afraid.

All the best in your build!

Thomas

[RacerRick]

I will hopefully be able to get it handling pretty good. The car should be relatively lightweight when done, about 3000-3200lbs.

Unsprung weight might be a problem with the IROC rims since they are no lightweights. But the Koni's should be able to take care of that.

I hope I get some time to actually test the car so that I can wring out the setup for it.

[Dave]

Ok Rick, here's how I see your car being classed based on the information you've given me.

1980 Camaro Z28 - 350ci V8 190hp stock
- I found a curb weight rating of 3550 lbs for this car online, but if you have official Chevy data on this that differs please let me know so I can adjust the number in the classification spreadsheet.
- suspension rating:
The front suspension is an independant, SLA type with coil springs, center mounted shock absorbers and spherical steering knuckle pivots. Is this correct?
The rear suspension features a solid rear axle with multiple leaf springs, staggered shocks with the right side shock located in front of the axle tube and the left shock located behind the axle tube. This controls wheel hop. The leaf springs were 5-leaf design, 56" long, 2.5" wide. Is this correct?

Based on this information, I think it's fair to assign a similar suspension rating to this car as used for the 3rd gen Camaro, so something in the 40-50% range. Lets say 45% for now.

This results in a starting PI of 52.8% (though from what I can find online the 1980 Camaro Z28 with the 350ci engine was rated at 170 hp, not 190 hp, which would lower its starting PI to 47.5%)

Prep Points:

Moroso aluminum subframe to body bushings - 1 PIP under section 6.2.10

Homemade Weld In subframe connectors - 2 PIPs under section 6.2.6

Remove door impact bars - 2 PIP under section 6.3.11
Remove sound deadener - covered under 6.3.11

8-point roll bar with additional sill bars. - negative 2 PIPs under section 6.3.1, which you can apply against any PIPs declared in section 6.3 (such as item 6.3.11).

Remove 15 mph bumpers and replace with steel bar - 1 PIP for the front and 1 PIP for the rear under sections 6.3.13 and .14

Driveshaft loop - free item

Front Springs = Moog Big Block Heavy Duty Replacement# 5642 649lbs-in. - 4 PIPs under section 6.2.5 (covers rear springs as well)

Koni Reds - 2 PIPs under section 6.2.4 (covers rear shocks as well)

Poly Bushings - already claimed section 6.2.10

solid tie rod sleeves - already claimed section 6.2.10
Boxed the lower control arms - already claimed section 6.2.10

16” IROC Rims - free mod

245/50/16 Yoyo's - free mod

Non Stock Alignment - 1 PIP under section 6.2.3

12” 1LE disk brake swap - free mod once your car moves up 1 class, which it certainly will

Stock 1LE Metalic pads - free mod

Rear Suspension - everything here is covered by the PIPs claimed for the front suspension
Koni Reds
Poly bushings
Stock way bar
16” IROC rims
245/50/16 tires
Stock Springs
disk brake rear end from same year Trans Am

Drivetrain
350 ci chevrolet v8 (stock bore/stroke)
Custom Cam - 3 PIPs under section 6.1.F.1

Martin Turbo System - 13 PIPs (assuming this is an aftermarket turbo system) under section 6.1.D.5

Holley Stock Q-jet replacement carb - 3 PIPs under section 6.1.A.3

Interior
Racing Steering Wheel - free mod at starting class +1
Hurst Shifter - free mod
Racing bucket seats - one seat is a free mod under section 5.11.6 and the other is covered under the authorized (free) mods in Starting Class +1 in section 5.18.3

racing harnesses - free mod

Sooooo, it looks like you've got a whoppin' 31 PIPs to add to your Starting PI, resulting in a Final PI of 83.8% if the car truly started with 190 hp (or 78.5% if it started with 170 hp). This would place it in SGT3 (between 80 - 84.9% PI), which is pretty tough company but with a turbo V8 I'm guessing you should be making a whole bunch of power :)

[RacerRick]

I have the full MVMA specifications if they are needed. 3550 is the listed weight for a base Z28.

I think I want to go with the dyno :) I think HP is going to be low on this car compared to what it could be. The ancient turbo setup is kinda weak compared to a modern one. I could get a solid 700+ hp out of a modern turbo setup, but I think this one will have trouble making 400hp. I could very easily make more power NA, and might try later on. I just like the neat turbo system on the car.

The car is actually a copy of a SVD Z28 from 1980. It was actually made as a copy in 1980 which is kinda cool. It is also only 1 of 80 4 speed/t-top canadian z's made that year.

I have all the SVD documentation of mods they made. SVD is the Special Vehical Developments was led by Bill Mitchell, the Chevrolet Engineer who designed the car. They were factory endorsed tuner cars like the Firehawks.

MVMA literature for the LM1 engine rates it at 190hp in stock form. Bill Mitchell published literature for the SVD turbo model was rated at 330hp .

I am only in it for fun, instead of wanting to dominate a class. The car is being built for another racing series where all these mods and more are legal. My goal is to run somewhere in the lower half of the 1.4's at mosport.

After the Challange that the car is being built for, I am probally taking off the turbo.

[DECH_92]

COOL
I think in Canada they are 190hp for 1980

Think there cast pistons not to good with turbo

[Dave]

Rick, regardless of what class it ends up in, it'll be damn cool to see a 1980 Camaro on the track with us! And hey, with all that power potential I think running in the low 140's should be very easy for you to achieve at Mosport.

I can't guarantee the dyno plot option will be available in 2004, but we'll see. You will have plenty of warning if we do away with this rule for next year.

Cheers,
Dave

[DECH_92]

Dave
If a Fox Mustang has a handlind index of 35
do you think a 2nd generation Camaro would be 45?

[RacerRick]

Its a Second Gen Camaro...it doesn't handle nearly as well as a third gen. From the Factory the cars are heavy as hell and very undersprung and underpowered. The early 70's Camaros are the same car, but 3200lbs with 360hp from a small block.

Road tests of the day have the Fox mustang running circles around the Z28, mostly because of its 600+ lb weight advantage and 175hp 5.0L

360 in/lbs springs in the front and 140 in/lb springs in the rear with a minimum weight for a stripped Z28 of 3550. T-roofs add 38 lbs, radio 9 lbs, power windows 4.3lbs, etc...so its pretty esay to get a 3800lb 190hp "performance" car. These are the specs for the Z28 package with the F41 heavy duty suspension. A normal Camaro RS or whatever was much worse. The Trans Am's were much better handling cars with the exact same suspension design, but used much larger sway bars and much stiffer springs. They were also much heavier and actually start around 3800lbs and get heavier from there.

[Dave]

Rick, thanks for the feedback. I'll do some research on this topic and get back to you with a more reasonable suspension rating.

Cheers,
Dave

[RacerRick]

I have spent most of this morning deciphering the rules and was wondering if the car would count as vintage under section 7.5? It seems to fit all parameters.

I quote from section 7.5:

"For clarity, any vehicle whose first model year was in 1978 or earlier qualifies at 'vintage' and is eligible for the vintage PIP allowance. For example, the 1975 to 1978 Datsun 280Z is considered vintage for the purposes of this series since its model run began before the end of 1978..."

This chassis debuted in 1970 and remained basically unchanged until they discontinued it in 1981. The Z28 package was dropped in the mid 70's but re-released in 1977.

With all the mods it seems the car will be in the starting class +4 catagory with the 31 PIPs.

I saw that the fire extinguisher is negative 1 PIP's and that I should include that.

So, would that be 27 PIP's total (minus the vintage 3 and extinguisher 1)?

[Dave]

yup, that sounds right to me, Rick. And hey, that's just enough to bring it down into GT1! Nice work :)

[RacerRick]

lol

I have been looking up road tests while on lunch today for the 80' Camaro and have found a few if you want to read. Its not very flattering.

http://www.nastyz28.com/faq/cd80z28.html
http://www.nastyz28.com/camaro/camaro80.html#z28-test

[Dave]

thanks Rick, that 'Car & Driver' review is quite interesting. Sounds like a 40% (or lower) suspension rating is in order. This'll save you at least 1 more PIP. I'll get back to you with a final number once I've consulted with the rest of the car classification committee.

[RacerRick]

Great - I personally think it should be the same as the mustang given its lack of prowess. I guess I will have to see how it goes.

[Dave]

Hi Rick,

Ok, the committee has discussed your car's suspsension rating and we're now in agreement that a 35% rating is fair. One of the committee members has driven both a fox body Mustang and a 2nd gen Camaro and he feels they are very similar in handling capability.

With a 35% suspension rating, your car's starting PI drops to 49.8%, to which we add on the 27 PIPs to get your final classification of 76.8% in GT1.

Cheers,
Dave