Insurance and Solo II

[Martini Focus]

Just a quick question for everyone. My policy is up for renewal on the Focus and before I pay out the $3800 I was wondering if anyone uses a company that doesn't frown upon the use of their cars in AutoX or lapping days.

I asked the hypothetical question earlier this year to my broker who told me that any use of my car in a timed event would mean automatic cancellation of my policy. Regardless I decided what he didn't know wouldn't hurt him and decided to compete.

So anyone have a company or a broker who either sells a policy to cover such use or who understands that the average commute on the 401 is more dangerous than a 60sec autoX run.


Before everyone asks the reason my payment is so high is because I have a agreed replacement value policy for my Focus to cover the work and modifications that I have invested in it. If I insured it as a 2000 Focus my payment would be less than $1200 per year. :rolleyes:

[Keith-02Accord]

I'd love to get a legal opinion on this. I don't believe that they can automatically cancel your policy but you definitely are not insured while competing.

As far as insurance companies that would accept it...I've never heard of it...they will look for any excuse to raise your insurance. Forget the fact the Solo 2 actually makes you a better driver and more capable of responding in an emergency situation.

Grrrrrrrrrrrr! :mad:

[TFGR]

Good Question!

Hey you racers out there.....What happens when you car gets mashed beyond belief at the track? Is that money invested just lost?
Tony?

[John P]

There is no insurance for your car at the track for Race or Solo. You fix your car's damages, irrelevent of who is at fault.

Liability insurance is reqiured by the organizing clubs and the track in the event somebody gets hurt. Also everbody has waivers for signing by the drivers to protect themselves.

John

[Marsh]

Originally posted by John P
There is no insurance for your car at the track for Race or Solo. You fix your car's damages, irrelevent of who is at fault.

Liability insurance is reqiured by the organizing clubs and the track in the event somebody gets hurt. Also everbody has waivers for signing by the drivers to protect themselves.

John

John's right. Trust me!
http://www.cockyracingguy.com/pictures/Prelude/crash-3.jpg
:(

This was $3500 out of my pocket. (First time the shoot-out was held at the DDT)

[Martini Focus]

Ouch Marshal that's too bad.

I'm fully aware of the risks but I believe that the enjoyment of the event far outweighs the risk.

[Taylor]

Actually John may not be quite right, that *was* the deal, however since the Insurance "fiasco", competitors are supposed to be covered. The deductible is about $5,000 (to make sure you muck the car up real bad) but I don't know it that applies to Solo 2 or not.

Course I've never gotten a straight acknowledgement, but I've seen it on the event policies posted at COMP events which look exactly like the sheet I was shown at a Solo 1 Comittee meeting the beginning of the season of the Insurance scare.

[MiG-29 Foxbat]

Originally posted by Martini Focus
Just a quick question for everyone. My policy is up for renewal on the Focus and before I pay out the $3800 I was wondering if anyone uses a company that doesn't frown upon the use of their cars in AutoX or lapping days.

I asked the hypothetical question earlier this year to my broker who told me that any use of my car in a timed event would mean automatic cancellation of my policy.

I'm insured with State Farm and as soon as I mentioned "racing" I was told that if the car were used for any type of racing, they would not insure it, period.

If I remember correctly, I did go on to explain about Solo 2 but the answer remained the same, so I just said I won't use the car for it.

Now, if the law says that insurance companies cannot insure cars used for Solo 2, I'd guess that means that the cops can photograph us and our modified cars at events and send the pics to our insurance companies, just like they do for the street racers. :mad:

So it may be better to "Take It To The Streets" instead.

Maybe someone could e-mail Lee Romanov for help.

PS: Sorry about the anti-cop sentiment but I work right next to a Police Station and those a*** holes tear out of there (cop cars, personal cars) around a blind corner, past a kindergarten every day with no respect for other people's lives or limbs.

[101rs]

Originally posted by MiG-29 Foxbat

Now, if the law says that insurance companies cannot insure cars used for Solo 2, I'd guess that means that the cops can photograph us and our modified cars at events and send the pics to our insurance companies, just like they do for the street racers. :mad:

have the cop done that at any events?
at the brampton center a cop showed up to watch that had given me a ticket a week before for improper exhaust and a week later in the mail i got a notice that the charge was dropped...so they aren't all bad
back to the subject at hand. i think i'm going to have enough problem insuring my car nevermind for racing..paying $7000 a year under my father's name for a car i can buy for $12 000 now :(

[gatherer]

Well I discussed this with my insurance company ... solo 2 racing ... was told they would cancel my policy and not payout if the claim orginated from a solo 2 event. so I guess as long as I don't try to claim damage at a solo 2 event I'm ok....:p I'm with a company called the personal. (it's only available if the company you work for has an agreement with them) but that is the exact wording they gave me.

I pay 27.22 a month while the car is in storage ... after the car comes out of storage I'm thinking of leaving collision off of it to reduce my rates.

[Yvan]

There are several people on the Miata boards that are insured with State Farm (in the US) and have successfully filed collision claims. Under their policy, Solo2 is considered a form of driver training.

I can't speak to whether this is also true of State Farm in Canada

PS: Careful what you say about 'risks' on this board or the board nazis will bitch and whine at you! :p

[MitS]

Originally posted by MiG-29 Foxbat
I'm insured with State Farm and as soon as I mentioned "racing" I was told that if the car were used for any type of racing, they would not insure it, period.

If I remember correctly, I did go on to explain about Solo 2 but the answer remained the same, so I just said I won't use the car for it.

Now, if the law says that insurance companies cannot insure cars used for Solo 2, I'd guess that means that the cops can photograph us and our modified cars at events and send the pics to our insurance companies, just like they do for the street racers. :mad:

So it may be better to "Take It To The Streets" instead.


I find this pretty lame. I can understand if I am not allowed to claims damages which occur at a Solo event but I can't understand them refusing to insure the car. I thought that they had to have good reason to deny insurance since the law states that we must be insured.

[Keith-02Accord]

Originally posted by MitS
I find this pretty lame. I can understand if I am not allowed to claims damages which occur at a Solo event but I can't understand them refusing to insure the car. I thought that they had to have good reason to deny insurance since the law states that we must be insured.

Why do you think there is such an uproar against insurance companies right now? The have waaaaaaay too much power. :mad:

[finboy]

in solo motorsports

the R word is not in the vocab.

soon as you mention RACING people freak out

i know a lot of people who have participated in driving events. driving competitions etc....


wonder why people don't want their full names posted on web boards?

wonder why people remove/block their licence plates???

[Gary]

Disclaimer: (remembering a famous flameout and subsequent ban from this Board)

I am not a lawyer
I do not now nor have I ever worked for an insurance company
These are the facts as I know them, but my understanding may be incorrect and/or not fully described in the following post.

However, finance is my skill, and insurance is something I deal with as part of what I do for a living.

Finally: Messengers should not be shot.

First of all, the reluctance of insurance companies to insure vehicles that may be used in competition in Ontario has nothing to do with property damage. There's usually an exclusion in the policy that deals with this. Damage your car during competition and you will very likely have trouble collecting. It's excluded under your policy. However, that's not the issue, and the amount of money involved is usually trivial from the insurers perspective. I know that $3500 damage is lots of dough for most individuals, but in the insurance biz, it's trivial.

The real issue is personal injury. Say something really bad happens at an event. A throttle sticks and someone gets run over, getting a massive whack to the head in the process. The person doesn't die, but is reduced to a vegative state, requiring 24/7 care for the rest of their life, and since they're only 22, they're expected to live for the next 50 years. The person has dependants. Cost: = potentially $ millions; not trivial. The injured person's family finds a lawyer and launches a lawsuit.

Say it's your car that's involved. It's licensed and insured. Can your insurance company dodge this one by invoking the exclusion in your policy? Nope. The property damage, sure, not a problem. They don't have to pay. But the personal injury cost? No way. On the hook for the full limit of the policy. Why? Because there's a law in Ontario that says they can't avoid paying, even though there's a specific policy exclusion. This kind of stuff happens all the time, and the law is there because there's also an exclusion in your policy that says you're not covered if you drive drunk. Drunk's cars don't get covered, but drunks cause injuries to others all the time, and the insurance companies are on the hook for it because of this law. They'd love it if they weren't, and we'd all pay less as a result, but that ain't the way it is.

That's the reason the insurers won't insure your car if they know it may be used in competition. They don't want exposure to the possibility of a personal injury claim. And regrettably, more of this stuff happens than you might think. Not necessarily in our events, which I think are very safe and well run. However, the insurers don't like the risks they already have, and they don't want more risk, expecially risks they don't understand.

Now, if your car is not licensed and insured, and the same thing happens, no problem. There's no insurance company to sue, the organizers' defence costs are likely covered by the event insurance, yours too, I think, and there's no law that holds the event insurer liable for personal injury claims.

Lest you think this isn't a big issue, I recall that recent industry statistics put the car insurance biz at a 106% loss ratio. In simple terms, that means every $100 in premiums collected produces $106 in claims. Yes, the premiums are invested in the markets and do produce investment income, but the investment earnings are not enough to pay the admin costs and offset the additional $6 in claims costs. The key reason for the high claims costs? No surprise here: personal injury claims.

Hope this sheds some light on the issue. However, I'm not going to ever post again on this topic. The topic of insurance really gets people exercised, and I'm not looking for a debate, or to get banned!

Gary




:D :D

[gatherer]

Originally posted by Gary
Disclaimer: (remembering a famous flameout and subsequent ban from this Board)

I am not a lawyer
I do not now nor have I ever worked for an insurance company
These are the facts as I know them, but my understanding may be incorrect and/or not fully described in the following post.

However, finance is my skill, and insurance is something I deal with as part of what I do for a living.

Finally: Messengers should not be shot.

First of all, the reluctance of insurance companies to insure vehicles that may be used in competition in Ontario has nothing to do with property damage. There's usually an exclusion in the policy that deals with this. Damage your car during competition and you will very likely have trouble collecting. It's excluded under your policy. However, that's not the issue, and the amount of money involved is usually trivial from the insurers perspective. I know that $3500 damage is lots of dough for most individuals, but in the insurance biz, it's trivial.

The real issue is personal injury. Say something really bad happens at an event. A throttle sticks and someone gets run over, getting a massive whack to the head in the process. The person doesn't die, but is reduced to a vegative state, requiring 24/7 care for the rest of their life, and since they're only 22, they're expected to live for the next 50 years. The person has dependants. Cost: = potentially $ millions; not trivial. The injured person's family finds a lawyer and launches a lawsuit.

Say it's your car that's involved. It's licensed and insured. Can your insurance company dodge this one by invoking the exclusion in your policy? Nope. The property damage, sure, not a problem. They don't have to pay. But the personal injury cost? No way. On the hook for the full limit of the policy. Why? Because there's a law in Ontario that says they can't avoid paying, even though there's a specific policy exclusion. This kind of stuff happens all the time, and the law is there because there's also an exclusion in your policy that says you're not covered if you drive drunk. Drunk's cars don't get covered, but drunks cause injuries to others all the time, and the insurance companies are on the hook for it because of this law. They'd love it if they weren't, and we'd all pay less as a result, but that ain't the way it is.

That's the reason the insurers won't insure your car if they know it may be used in competition. They don't want exposure to the possibility of a personal injury claim. And regrettably, more of this stuff happens than you might think. Not necessarily in our events, which I think are very safe and well run. However, the insurers don't like the risks they already have, and they don't want more risk, expecially risks they don't understand.

Now, if your car is not licensed and insured, and the same thing happens, no problem. There's no insurance company to sue, the organizers' defence costs are likely covered by the event insurance, yours too, I think, and there's no law that holds the event insurer liable for personal injury claims.

Lest you think this isn't a big issue, I recall that recent industry statistics put the car insurance biz at a 106% loss ratio. In simple terms, that means every $100 in premiums collected produces $106 in claims. Yes, the premiums are invested in the markets and do produce investment income, but the investment earnings are not enough to pay the admin costs and offset the additional $6 in claims costs. The key reason for the high claims costs? No surprise here: personal injury claims.

Hope this sheds some light on the issue. However, I'm not going to ever post again on this topic. The topic of insurance really gets people exercised, and I'm not looking for a debate, or to get banned!

Gary




:D :D

but isn't that why everyone on site signs a waiver? I know the waiver is for ASN but couldn't the other insurer use it to say "hey look they decided to be at this event therefore it's not our fault"

[miataboi]

ban him.... he speaks mostly the truth!

:D

[30thSS]

So I have the following question. Does anyone ever know of an insurance company cancelling a policy of someone cuz of racing at Solo II events? They certainly must know this goes on and what would stop them from taking pictures of cars at an event and finding out who drives the cars and cancelling policies of the owners??

[finboy]

http://www.mco.org/cms/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=7997

[MazdaMatt]

What about truckers that compete in timed "Truck Rodeos"? Do they lose their insurance and subsequently their jobs because they can't drive their trucks?

[yellowhotshoe]

See the section in your policy (the Ontario Auto policy that ALL insurers must follow) section 19 or something like that which talks about prohibited use of vehicles in timed events or tests of speed. Get a detailed policy from your insurer and READ IT.

However, i'm led to believe that driving schools (even of the performance type on a track) are permitted. No timers or tests of speed, only driver improvement is taking place (at 145 mph :rolleyes: )

Note: I was never here, nor do I ever exceed the speed limit on a public roadway.

[Nova_Dust]

Take your plates off during the event; prepared to lose your car or pay for all damages done to it durnig the event; be extra careful about spectators and those around the lot.

There are two sides to every sword - every story counts, but often enough, like many things in live, there is only one solution to a problem. Just like there can only be one sun in the sky.

[Nova_Dust]

However, i'm led to believe that driving schools (even of the performance type on a track) are permitted. No timers or tests of speed, only driver improvement is taking place (at 145 mph :rolleyes: )


Perpahs lapping days can be counted as one?

[MazdaMatt]

Ya know what's cheaper than repairing the fender of your 20k street car? A civic. Buy one for the track only and haul it. No more worries.

[13inches]

Ya know what's cheaper than repairing the fender of your 20k street car? A civic. Buy one for the track only and haul it. No more worries.

It it so simple to afford and have room to park a street car, race car, tow vehicle and trailer?

:rolleyes:

[George]

It it so simple to afford and have room to park a street car, race car, tow vehicle and trailer?
:rolleyes:

Actually for the money that I've wasted trying to halfass my road car into a race car I could have bought a decent Players Challenge car with a trailer and spares.

Right now all I've got is something that isn't really safe because it still needs a cage, harness, proper seats, bigger brakes, a Tremec TKO 500, scatter shield as well as lot of other stuff that would be too tedious to list. It's far better to buy a used race car after someone has already taken the hit on building the damn thing..lol

[gatherer]

Ya know what's cheaper than repairing the fender of your 20k street car? A civic. Buy one for the track only and haul it. No more worries.

yes but instead of having your street only vehicle you are now looking to get a truck and a trailer as well as that civic....

I'd be glad to go this route but my budget for racing is so low that option isn't viable.

[Doug P]

Actually for the money that I've wasted trying to halfass my road car into a race car I could have bought a decent Players Challenge car with a trailer and spares.

Right now all I've got is something that isn't really safe because it still needs a cage, harness, proper seats, bigger brakes, a Tremec TKO 500, scatter shield as well as lot of other stuff that would be too tedious to list. It's far better to buy a used race car after someone has already taken the hit on building the damn thing..lol

With that sales job you should have no problem moving your car now. :D

Seemed to move pretty quick at Mosport.

[George]

With that sales job you should have no problem moving your car now. :D

Seemed to move pretty quick at Mosport.

Ahh, yeah, bit of a tactical error there on my part..lol

Actually that so called players car you're looking at right now is no good - you should buy my car, in fact I really want you to have my car and for a moderate consulting fee I will help you in completing its conversion to a well prepped track whore...lol

[Maddog]

Ya know what's cheaper than repairing the fender of your 20k street car? A civic. Buy one for the track only and haul it. No more worries.
I think that's the direction I'll be heading into. Now that I'm putting a nice shinny paint job on the Z28, I'll be too paranoid to hit anything....especially since it doesn't have winter tires. :D (Got it before you did Doug..I'm catching on to you.)

[George]

....especially since it doesn't have winter tires. :D (Got it before you did Doug..I'm catching on to you.)

Empty a couple of bags of premix concrete into the trunk of the Camaro, add water, stir and she’ll be good to go on summer tyres in any kind of snowstorm..lol

[MazdaMatt]

yes but instead of having your street only vehicle you are now looking to get a truck and a trailer as well as that civic....

I'd be glad to go this route but my budget for racing is so low that option isn't viable.

My point was, it is cheaper to do that than to risk the liability of an incedent on track. Solosprint requires no safety setup. You buy 800 dollar civic, 800 dollar tires, a 1500 dollar truck and a 1500 dollar trailer. You're under 4g and you don't have to worry about writing off your 20k street car. Think of it like insurance.

I'm not just throwing that out there... I hit a post with my car after leaving the DDT pavement and it scared me into buying a track car. I went a little overboard, but I now have a cube van with ramps and a del sol will complete race suspension, racing seats, roll bar, tires, blah blah... when all is said and done, my complete cost for EVERYTHING will be 10k. That's less than the replacement cost of my car. Not to mention, i'm peronally much safer out there due to my added safety gear that I wouldn't even consider putting in a street vehicle.

[StewPiddass]

You must be single...

But in all seriousness, you're lucky because even if you put the $ aside, many people cannot spare the space for a spare car let alone the tow vehicle. Even if they did have the space they might find resistance from their significant other about a cube van sitting in the driveway (I sure know I would)

There's also classing to consider, many people build their cars to be optimized for a specific class and quite often these cars are much closer to stock than yours is. Your car (Matt) is much farther into a mod class than any of these cars and will be harshly classed at almost any type of event you plan to attend (solo1 or 2). This is just fine as long as you're there for the seat time and the fun factor.

[MazdaMatt]

Oh i'm single, but even the GF is giving me flack for these antics. :p

The del sol will be reasonably classed in solo1. Possibly even competitively classed. Pwr/Wt and suspension pips. I can't imagine any solo2 organizer putting me anywhere but mod.

I'm lucky enough to have a father that owns a trucking company. Lots of room to park a cube van in his yard.

My case is a little over the top because I had the resources to go there... but really, buying a junker civic and a set of tires is a VERY economical way to do this for anybody that daily drives a truck already.

Not to mention, i see people at solo2 events with cars valued over 30g. Or over 60g in some cases. These people can't possibly complain about the cost of a civic, tow dolly, truck and storage. They probably would complain about destroying their brand new sports car (just ask the dude that mangled his 06 cobra mustang in 06 at GP school)

[mopar1]

I totaly agree,i am currently building an 89 civic and keeping pretty much everything stock with the exception of a cage seat and harness.But i live in the country so I have the room for a trailer.Although I am going to use a friends tow dolly for now,it's actually nice because it is very light.I paid $200.00 for the car but it needed some bodywork so I did everything myself to keep the cost down.I am not a professional body man but it will do.Hope to have some fun with it and you guys this season.

[MazdaMatt]

I'm looking forward to seeing your project! Care to share your approx total costs?

[mopar1]

I would have to say around $3000.00
$200 for the car
$500 for the cage
$200 for the seat and harness
$100 for welding wire
$300 for body panels
$150 for bushing kit
$250 for rims
$150 for brakes
$300 for extras
I have to get a windshield and a sa approved helmet and a 5 bc extuinguisher
I am sure there is something I am missing.The car needs a paint job but that won't happen until next winter.The car still looks somewhat original,but it will do for this year.

My long term goal is to race someday,I am going to keep adding extras to my civic and when I am ready to race look for a crx and swap all my parts from the civic to the crx.The body on my car is a little iffy for racing and when I am ready to race I want a professionaly built cage.If I had to do it again I would not install the cage,alot more work than I thought.

[MazdaMatt]

Not bad. I spent 1500 on the car. It was sawed off front and back so I had to fab bumpers, rad mounts, etc. Its getting a fiberglass front end and I'll have to do either sheet metal or custom fiberglass rear end. It already had shocks, springs, seat, wheel, bushings, Si engine, 5spd conversion, 4-wheel disc. I made my own roll bar; bought the tubing, borrowed a bender, did all the fishmouting and cutting myself, had my brother weld it. I bought rims for 300 and rubber for 800 and a passenger seat for a bottle of Absolut. There's a few other things...

All said and done I'll have a pretty highly prepared solosprint car for 5k. It will never meet RR safety, so I'll eventually sell it to another solosprint driver when I'm done with it... or take all the goodies off and build a civic.

[spoonie]

i've given up on the dual-purpose dream.

track car + something to tow it is the new dream.

i'm halfway there on both fronts :D

[mopar1]

Thats the right choice for me too because I plan on abusing the hell out of my civic and I don't have to worry about getting to work monday morning.

[Janny]

Same story for me.

I bought a 1995 z28 about 10 years ago for the purpose of having fun at solo 1 and 2, and to have a great street car. Before long, I had so many nice extras in the car that I didn't dare "hurt" it. Heck for the price of one good Recaro seat I could reconstruct my entire chassis and all the body work if I had to.

I've learned that a half assed road and track car is really a lousy choice. Track whore and trailer is the best way to have fun with a car. It requires far fewer compromises, it's much faster, it costs a good deal less, it's much safer, and generally just a whole lot less worrisome.

BTW, towing does not have to be expensive.

[RichardC]

This from the guy that got me into the F500s. I'm looking to get one or build one or maybe steal one if I have to ;) A car that weighs less than 1000lbs (many need balast to hit 800) and a trailer. Could pretty much tow it with a lawn tractor. Also 54" width and 80" wheel base and almost low enough to store under the deck!

As for the injury thing, any peice of paper you sign is scrap. You CAN NOT leagally sign away your right to sue. If you can prove negligence.

[Doug P]

Same story for me.

I bought a 1995 z28 about 10 years ago for the purpose of having fun at solo 1 and 2, and to have a great street car. Before long, I had so many nice extras in the car that I didn't dare "hurt" it. Heck for the price of one good Recaro seat I could reconstruct my entire chassis and all the body work if I had to.

I've learned that a half assed road and track car is really a lousy choice. Track whore and trailer is the best way to have fun with a car. It requires far fewer compromises, it's much faster, it costs a good deal less, it's much safer, and generally just a whole lot less worrisome.

BTW, towing does not have to be expensive.


Hey John. Are we going to see you up here this summer?

[Janny]

Hey John. Are we going to see you up here this summer?

Right now, I'd say that it is almost certain that you will see me at a few Solo 1 events. I'm still busy with this winter's project: installing an engine out of a CBR600 in the car. That is starting to shape up very nicely, though. 105 hp in a 700lb car with sequential shift 6 speed gear box, should be lots of fun and I expect a whole lot more reliable than the wretched snowmobile engine that was in there. :D Now I just have to learn to drive or learn some good excuses for a poor showing in spite of good equipment. :D

JV

[Doug P]

Right now, I'd say that it is almost certain that you will see me at a few Solo 1 events. I'm still busy with this winter's project: installing an engine out of a CBR600 in the car. That is starting to shape up very nicely, though. 105 hp in a 700lb car with sequential shift 6 speed gear box, should be lots of fun and I expect a whole lot more reliable than the wretched snowmobile engine that was in there. :D Now I just have to learn to drive or learn some good excuses for a poor showing in spite of good equipment. :D

JV


Did you confirm with the Solosprint guys up here that you can run?

[Janny]

Did you confirm with the Solosprint guys up here that you can run?

We had lengthy discussions here on this board last year, and it was decided that I can run. I'm assuming this still holds true.