Unethical Mazda Car Dealership

[Action Jackson]

http://www.thestar.com/business/article/805836--woman-pays-66-000-for-car-worth-41-000?bn=1

:( :mad:

[Ziploc]

I was hoping that it was a crooked sales associate and not the dealer itself.

Then read the manager said this:

“We didn’t do anything wrong in the case of this transaction,” said Trung. “We made a little bit of money on the deal. I guess she was not happy with it.”

Wow.

[Director]

I was hoping that it was a crooked sales associate and not the dealer itself.

Then read the manager said this:



Wow.

The dealer is well aware of this for sure. They have the ultimate sign off on the deal. I hope they throw the book at these guys. They must have been laughing it up as she drove away. Now we'll see who's laughing.

This is what gives car salesmen a bad rap.

[darcyw]

Smith said the salesmen also billed Leonard, who is intellectually disabled, about $4,500 for a “protection package” that included fabric guarding, rust and sound proofing and window etching. Other dealers charge about a third of that for the same items, he said.

WTF!

plus they probably already spent their rather large commision check.

later
darcy

[Mr2Rob]

When I picked up my 2010 Mazda3 a few months ago, I managed to find $1,000 in overcharges that they promptly removed just be reviewing the Bill of Sale. They blamed it on the account manager that was laid off a week before, but didn't have an answer for me when I asked why her replacement, or the salesman, or the sales manager (who I dealt with directly on the deal) didn't review it before I came in.

It's not just Mazda. It can be any dealership. Unfortunately, that's just the way it is these days. You have to be vigilent as a buyer and bring someone with you if you are new to buying cars or "intellectually challenged".

[Marsh]

It's not just dealerships. This is fairly typical of how sales will be handled by nearly any salesman that can get away with it in any industry. We live in a world where liars and cheaters are rewarded and honest people are not. You can't find honest sales people because the lying works.

Never trust a man that smiles and nods his head after asking you a question.

[vinnie mack]

It's not just dealerships. This is fairly typical of how sales will be handled by nearly any salesman that can get away with it in any industry. We live in a world where liars and cheaters are rewarded and honest people are not. You can't find honest sales people because the lying works.

Never trust a man that smiles and nods his head after asking you a question.

Definitely agree. In my opinion she ultimately made the final call by putting down her signature for the vehicle. I understand she is disabled but that will be a major point in the case is if she can make these proper decisions herself.

In the end the dickheads still took advantage of a woman clearly with a disability and that is just sad. That's like convincing a blind man to buy "better" sunglasses just for a sale.

[abrracing]

I have been in the car business for 26 years starting as a salesman and then managing dealerships. I can tell you that 90% of all the dealerships of all brands are run ethically and professionally. At our store we base everything on the premise of "you dont get rich on one vehicle", and that goes for all departments. We would rather give a deposit back to an unsatisfied customer than have them go tell everyone or post on the internet how poorly we treated them, ripped them off etc. I am sure I speak for the other car dealers who race with us when I tell you that we are as upset as anyone, as this is just another slap for the 90% of us that are professional and ethical.

Like everything else, I am certain that there is more the story as well. A mentally handicapped person would not be out purchasing a car, the dealership cannot secure financing through a financial institution if the customer could not substanciate the payments etc. I am not condoning the behaviour, pricing etc. Just always be aware the media has a way of sensationalizing the facts.

Another thing that has always amazed me about people buying any product is that consumers continually reward dishonesty. If you go to buy a product and the price changes when you get there, they dont have the "exact" product that was promised, advertised etc.........WALK AWAY. If you say what the hell and buy it anyway, you are just as responsible by encouraging that type of behaviour.

[thgear]

90% of all my dealership experiences have left a poor taste in my mouth

this includes Toyota, Honda, VW, BMW, Ford and Subaru

the only dealership where i felt good going into and out of was Porsche.. go figure


I have been in the car business for 26 years starting as a salesman and then managing dealerships. I can tell you that 90% of all the dealerships of all brands are run ethically and professionally. At our store we base everything on the premise of "you dont get rich on one vehicle", and that goes for all departments. We would rather give a deposit back to an unsatisfied customer than have them go tell everyone or post on the internet how poorly we treated them, ripped them off etc. I am sure I speak for the other car dealers who race with us when I tell you that we are as upset as anyone, as this is just another slap for the 90% of us that are professional and ethical.

Like everything else, I am certain that there is more the story as well. A mentally handicapped person would not be out purchasing a car, the dealership cannot secure financing through a financial institution if the customer could not substanciate the payments etc. I am not condoning the behaviour, pricing etc. Just always be aware the media has a way of sensationalizing the facts.

Another thing that has always amazed me about people buying any product is that consumers continually reward dishonesty. If you go to buy a product and the price changes when you get there, they dont have the "exact" product that was promised, advertised etc.........WALK AWAY. If you say what the hell and buy it anyway, you are just as responsible by encouraging that type of behaviour.

[gearhead]

90% of all my dealership experiences have left a poor taste in my mouth

this includes Toyota, Honda, VW, BMW, Ford and Subaru

the only dealership where i felt good going into and out of was Porsche.. go figure

So what Porsche did you buy on the trip the dealer?

[thgear]

i bought a timing belt stud for 9 bucks...


but the staff there, when they said the usuall one liners of "can i help you with anything" or "how are you doing today", it felt genuine, and ive worked in customer service long enough to know the difference.

[gearhead]

I have been in the car business for 26 years starting as a salesman and then managing dealerships. I can tell you that 90% of all the dealerships of all brands are run ethically and professionally. At our store we base everything on the premise of "you dont get rich on one vehicle", and that goes for all departments. We would rather give a deposit back to an unsatisfied customer than have them go tell everyone or post on the internet how poorly we treated them, ripped them off etc. I am sure I speak for the other car dealers who race with us when I tell you that we are as upset as anyone, as this is just another slap for the 90% of us that are professional and ethical.

Like everything else, I am certain that there is more the story as well. A mentally handicapped person would not be out purchasing a car, the dealership cannot secure financing through a financial institution if the customer could not substanciate the payments etc. I am not condoning the behaviour, pricing etc. Just always be aware the media has a way of sensationalizing the facts.

Another thing that has always amazed me about people buying any product is that consumers continually reward dishonesty. If you go to buy a product and the price changes when you get there, they dont have the "exact" product that was promised, advertised etc.........WALK AWAY. If you say what the hell and buy it anyway, you are just as responsible by encouraging that type of behaviour.


+1 with Al.I have been been in the business 28 years and I could not agree with Al more.

[gearhead]

i bought a timing belt stud for 9 bucks...


but the staff there, when they said the usuall one liners of "can i help you with anything" or "how are you doing today", it felt genuine, and ive worked in customer service long enough to know the difference.

So your experiance was OK in buying $9 worth of parts?

[thgear]

parT


10char

[gearhead]

parT

and i spent 30 minutes in there talking with people, which is enough to get a feel for the place.

That is much more typical of what I see day to day in our business.What has been "exposed" in the rag(I mean the Star)is quite untypical of the way business is done at the majority of the car dealers these days in this province.It is really sad that most of the uninformed people that read this article believe that this the norm for our business which is really unfortunate.

[gearhead]

parT


10char

Wow!I guess that made thier day:rolleyes:

[thgear]

Wow!I guess that made thier day:rolleyes:

Exactly, i brought them no business but they treated me like a million bucks anyway.

[gearhead]

Exactly, i brought them no business but they treated me like a million bucks anyway.

Correct and that is the way a good dealership does business,not the way that you portrayed the other dealerships that you talked about!

[thgear]

except that in my experience, the vast majority of dealerships DO NOT fall into this type

and "the rag" stereotypes are most certainly true, unless i just happened to be walking into the worst dealerships.

there is a reason why people call them "stealerships"

take for example the concept of "book time"

you charge for a 6 hours job but have a mechanic finish in 2. Brilliant!

[23Racer]

In all my dealings with dealers, almost all brands over many years, I have had only a few instances. In most cases they have just been regular guys trying to earn a living without screwing people over.

There has to be more to this story.

Eric

[gearhead]

except that in my experience, the vast majority of dealerships DO NOT fall into this type

and "the rag" stereotypes are most certainly true, unless i just happened to be walking into the worst dealerships.

there is a reason why people call them "stealerships"

take for example the concept of "book time"

you charge for a 6 hours job but have a mechanic finish in 2. Brilliant!

Well maybe you go out of your way to find "those" dealerships! That is sure not what I have known in my time in the business and as a matter of fact that some of the most honest & ethical people that I have met are in the car business.Should we talk about some other professions now!

[slucas]

I've had dealings with this Mazda dealer as has a friend of mine. Both of us walked away knowing they were crooks. I couldn't wash fast enough.

They are the sterio-typical car-dealership. The kind that good dealerships dread hearing about. It's not fair to tar them all with the same brush but that's what happens.

[Jon04CTSV]

I don't feel sorry for her...

She also has difficulty concentrating and says she was heavily medicated and in poor condition last December when she visited the dealership.

She was DUI on her way to the dealership.

http://www.citytv.com/toronto/citynews/news/local/article/76603--mazda-dealership-in-hot-water-after-allegedly-pressuring-ill-woman-into-buying-overpriced-car

[soloZ]

except that in my experience, the vast majority of dealerships DO NOT fall into this type

and "the rag" stereotypes are most certainly true, unless i just happened to be walking into the worst dealerships.

there is a reason why people call them "stealerships"

take for example the concept of "book time"

you charge for a 6 hours job but have a mechanic finish in 2. Brilliant!



it's more like part time then "book time" some days you might be cursing the fact you can't take a lunch other days your cursing because your ass hurts from sitting around doing nothing and not getting paid.

[fastnx]

According to the city tv article, the $66 000 is the total cost of borrowing, including interest on the loan for 8 years. The price for the car was not 66k.

[13inches]

http://www.thestar.com/business/auto/article/806621--mazda-salesmen-fired-money-refunded?bn=1

[Mr2Rob]

I would like to see them get the maximum penalty. It would at the very least be a good start to changing the shameful manner in which many salesmen and dealerships treat their customers.

[RacerJason]

There has to be more to this story.

Investigator Carrey Smith said the dealership had actually sold Leonard a “demonstrator” model, which dealers use for test driving. As well, add-on items had been sold three times what they should cost.

The dealership had also saddled her with an eight-year loan and heavy financing costs. Leonard, who is unemployed and lives on a disability pension in a subsidized apartment, should have never qualified for the loan, Smith said.

The Better Business Bureau of Mid-Western and Central Ontario has issued a D+ rating for the dealership, on a scale of A to F, after receiving complaints.

Those few are enough facts for me. There is a bad apple on every tree.

[Dave Barker]

That is much more typical of what I see day to day in our business.What has been "exposed" in the rag(I mean the Star)is quite untypical of the way business is done at the majority of the car dealers these days in this province.It is really sad that most of the uninformed people that read this article believe that this the norm for our business which is really unfortunate.

Unfortunately although I would like to think you are correct, there are too many cases of this sort of thing happening.

A few years ago I went to a Chrysler dealership to look at a minivan. I went to a specific salesman at the suggestion of a colleague. He quoted me a price that was $2600 above list. I ended up buying elsewhere for sig less than list and when the salesman I originally consulted called back, I told him he had highballed the price big time to which his response was " Well I was prepared to deal from that price"

More recently I was at a Mazda dealership ( not the one in the article) looking at a Mazda 6. When we got into discussions re packages there was a special " sport " package for $950 and apparently the vehicle I test drove had it. Interesting that after checking with Mazda Canada, no such package exists and no other Mazda dealer had it. Neat way to get the unsuspecting buyer to pay more.

It is unfortunate that the consumer needs to be armed with so much really good information before attending car dealers, new or used and obviously this woman was not capable (for a variety of reasons) of making reasonable decisions. Fortunately good data is readily available from various sources.

[abrracing]

The stupid part of this is that the 2 guys who were probably doing what they were told to do by the owner have gotten fired while the owner is now looking like the "hero" who saved the day, when at the time of the deal was probably "high fiving" them. If you read other forums you will see how many times that store has mislead customers to get them to drive to Orangeville, and them worked them until they got a deal. I truly hope that àll the other people who were dealt with in this manner come forward, so the real problem is resolved.

[Adam Lipcsey]

Furthermore, Smith said Leonard, who is unemployed, should not have qualified for a loan from the dealer because her monthly income including a disability pension is less than $2,000.

How can a person earning so little can sustain herself, let alone keep a car?

The Toronto Star did a lopsidedly presented article demonizing (justly) a crook dealership, but the real issue that this article presents to me is how people relate to living with (or without) a car with the income they earn. Why people feel that car ownership is required by them?

Also, how can a car dealer offer a brand new car to a person with such a small income? Isn't this a symptom of the greedily consuming credit-based society we live in witnessing its own financial demise?

[abrracing]

You have to remember at the dealership they are a liason between the customer and a financial institution unless its is the dealers own leasing company. In this case all that was done is a credit application forwarded to the bank and the bank obviously approved it. We get all kinds of people with different types of disability pensions financed, mainly because they have taken other jobs and the disability payment supplements the income. Like I said in a previous statement, you have to take the media for what its worth, which is most likely 50% accurate at best. That still doesn't change the fact of the pricing etc, but again the disability and finance part aren't anything to do with the dealership. Even the loan terms are not as far fetched as most of you think. Whats commonly called 60/96 is happening more and more as customers reach for vehicles they want that they truly can't afford. 60/96 is simply an 8 year loan that refinances after 60 months very much like a mortgage.

[locker]

One thing that makes me curious about all of this is that when i saw the details of the loan I was not surprised.
I work as a rep in the Auto financing business (not for a bank for a software company) and seeing a 41000 car that by the time the customer pays for it is over $60000 is not uncommon.
I mean we do not know for sure if she was upside down on the mazda 3 she traded in. Heck the deal may have had to inflate the prices of the car and even aftermarket products to bury the negative equity on the deal. Also $5000 in the business office isn't outlandish as well. Life, Dis and depending on the warranty she chose could have easily added up to that

This is the scary thing about this situation is that I know a lot of good dealers that have put customers into these exact situations on the customers request. People being 5,10 even 15000 upside down in their trade isn't the most uncommon thing. Every situation is different. If the dealer did take advantage of the consumer there are plenty of old and new laws that will make the dealer pay. If they didn't attempted to screw the customer over they should have a boat load of paperwork to back up their claim

[abrracing]

I totally agree with you, the upsetting part to me as a car dealer is the amount of issues that dealer has had in the past. If you look at the numbers the store does, they outsell most of the Toronto dealers. If you go to other forums (especially Mazda related ones) you will story after story about cars not being as they were advertised, baited and switched etc. That is what is most disturbing and it has taken this event to bring it to the forefront, when this behaviour has been out there for sometime and allegedly know who is encouraging it................

[23Racer]

"this behaviour has been out there for sometime and we all know who is encouraging it................ "

I believe the line should be;

"We allegedly know who is encouraging it..............."

Just covering your back buddy, ;).

Eric

[racer-025]

My $.02.

[rant on]
In my opinion, I think a lot of new car dealers are getting a bad rap for several valid reasons. For the past decade or so, they appear & act very similar to the big box stores that are faceless and careless. Back in the day, the Mom & Pop car dealership was a cornerstone of several smaller communities. When you went into the place to buy a part for your truck, several people knew you. The place had history (character). Nobody cared about the old, worn, showroom floor. Vehicles were mechanically simple with few options and that was Okay. Back then when it started to rain, I could turn on the wipers myself. Apparently, now I need to let the vehicle determine this. The dealership mechanics fixed things for a reasonable cost and a reasonable time. I really liked my Honda Civic & Accord, Toyota Corolla. They were simple and very reliable. I worked on them myself for most things and took them in to the dealer for heavier things like timing belts, etc. Dealerships had a positive outlook to people.

Now, fast-forward to today, cars are extremely complicated. I truly believe the people did not ask for all this complication. I really believe the auto maker has rammed all this new technology down our throats and at a huge cost. Just look at most of our race cars. They are void of any extras. New complex cars seem to have on-going problems, recalls, and safety & warranty issues. Not to mention the huge depreciation. Now, we have no clue what is wrong when the engine light comes on or that damn remote door opener wont work. We have no choice but to take it to the dealer and bend over the counter. They “find” things that are wrong. Now, flat-rate charge is a necessary evil. Service Managers are pressured by their owners to make profit or face the axe. Monthly bottom line by the sales staff is imperative for Dealership survival. They can’t do it by their marque alone. After all, that old building which was perfectly OK for selling & repairing cars had to get replaced by the high-tech, high dollar, high profile building just because their competitor down the road replaced theirs. Someone has to pay for all this. I recently drove in to one of these big-box dealerships to get a part for my ’02 truck. I spent 10 minutes just to find a place to park my car. Inside, the place looked like a hospital. Immediately I was intercepted by a suit barren sales junkie. He had to push that new $60K truck at me. I stood there in line at the parts counter for the next 25 minutes waiting my turn to buy a $25 item. When I bought the item, I really felt that I was imposing on the others (that were more important then me) by the counter sales guy. He didn’t treat me badly, but I felt I was a real nuisance to his day when he couldn’t find my item, while I insisted that they had one (and they did).

Anyway, I’ll keep buying old vehicles and fix most things myself just to avoid a sore arse every time I have to go to a dealership.
[rant off]

[twinch]

I read this story in the Newspaper the other day too, and I could not believe both parties involved with this.

I'm siding more with the dealership (but I do think they were unethical in doing what they did). Yes the dealership took advantage, hell, they sold a demonstrator car as a new car, but a customer has to be educated in what they are buying. You can't be taken advantage of if you know what you are purchasing. She went in for tires and ended up with a car...How the eff does that happen? I'd love to hear the convincing story the salesperson had for that one.

I have no idea how the dealership swung a lease of such an insane amount by someone who makes no money. I read they got her an 8 year lease?!?

[locker]

I totally agree with you, the upsetting part to me as a car dealer is the amount of issues that dealer has had in the past. If you look at the numbers the store does, they outsell most of the Toronto dealers. If you go to other forums (especially Mazda related ones) you will story after story about cars not being as they were advertised, baited and switched etc. That is what is most disturbing and it has taken this event to bring it to the forefront, when this behaviour has been out there for sometime and allegedly know who is encouraging it................

So true!!! Add to the fact that the regulatory body is more concerned that your putting "previous daily rental" on your bill of Sale than they are of the serious issues in our business.
I have to say I'm very interested to see how this will all play out.

[Doug P]

Everything you guys say might be true but firsthand experience from a friend that went to look at a car there for her kid ended up with about $4k in up charges over the sticker price on a used car. She walked away.

[Travis]

After returning from a trip overseas, I find it funny how people are siding with the buyer. This salesman ethics concept only seems to exist in nanny states such as Canada. If this was a non western country she would have paid $82,000, not have received a "protection package", and everyone would congratulate the salesman for a job well done.

Also, the story has clearly been sensationalized. If I saw a woman able to drive a car into a dealership to replace some tires, I could never be convinced that she's mentally handicapped. There's missing information and the writer is just as guilty of misleading his readers the salesman is guilty of misleading the purchaser.

[Adam Lipcsey]

Also, the story has clearly been sensationalized. If I saw a woman able to drive a car into a dealership to replace some tires, I could never be convinced that she's mentally handicapped. There's missing information and the writer is just as guilty of misleading his readers the salesman is guilty of misleading the purchaser.

I agree with this comment. The article story has too many gaps in it to be in a newspaper.

[Doug Stark]

I bought a Mazda 5 last summer and couldn't be happier with the price, the experience (Mississauga dealer) and the vehicle. This type of story in the Star (with new dealers) are thankfully rare. You can bet these guys loose the dealership as soon as the court case is over. Mazda make fine vehicles - they don't need to be ripping off people to make a buck and dealerships like this damaging Mazda Canada's customers confidence (even if the Toronto Pravda made a hash of the story) can not be tolerated if they want to grow their market share.

[abrracing]

Doug after working in this industry for 26 some odd years, I really doubt anything will happen to that store unless the rest of the customers that were treated the same, and ex employees that were taught the same come forward. This is nothing new as I personally know people and managers who worked there and told many simular stories.

[abrracing]

So true!!! Add to the fact that the regulatory body is more concerned that your putting "previous daily rental" on your bill of Sale than they are of the serious issues in our business.
I have to say I'm very interested to see how this will all play out.

There was and still is a used car dealer that has 3 or more locations that charged on their bills of sale "Financing Fee,Certification Fee and Administration Fee" totalling more than $2000.00. As far as I remember you cant charge a fee for arranging financing etc. They are still open and selling accident and salvage, out province cars etc.

[Doug Stark]

I really doubt anything will happen to that store...

http://www.thestar.com/business/article/809245--mazda-canada-terminates-controversial-orangeville-dealer?bn=1

My barometer never fails me... :)

[Burnsey]

<EDIT: repost...within 1 minute of Mr. Stark's post above...what are the odds... ;))

[Doug Stark]

<EDIT: repost...within 1 minute of Mr. Stark's post above...what are the odds... ;))

I heard you typing and typed faster... :)

[locker]

Wow I can't believe Mazda reacted that quickly. Show's the power of the Media though

[Doug Stark]

Wow I can't believe Mazda reacted that quickly. Show's the power of the Media though

Or maybe they were just waiting for a 'better excuse' that their lawyers told them would make it a slam dunk and lawsuit proof?;)

[locker]

yeah never thought of that

[abrracing]

You are definitely right about the power of the media. From what I understand that dealership has had complaints from surrounding dealers and customers for at least the last 2 years that basically fell on deaf ears. The only thing that may be interesting if if they are found innocent from the courts...............I wonder what type of lawsuit would occur lol

[RobCrx]

How dumb can a person really be to overpay by that much ??
I mean, there's an MSRP list price on the thing....lol
If she has a mental disability, she shouldnt be behind the wheel of a car !

On the other hand, sometimes customers even think they got ripped off if the dealer profits $1000 over thier cost.......

Go figure.

It's always the dealerships fault right ?
Is it okay for a Porsche or Ferrari dealer to make $20,000 gross profit on thier products then ??

A salesman's job is to make as much money as they can on the product they sell.

If OMVIC or the gov't thinks this is being ripped off, then they should have fixed pricing for everything !

[StewPiddass]

How dumb can a person really be to overpay by that much ??
I mean, there's an MSRP list price on the thing....lol
If she has a mental disability, she shouldnt be behind the wheel of a car !

On the other hand, sometimes customers even think they got ripped off if the dealer profits $1000 over thier cost.......

Go figure.

It's always the dealerships fault right ?
Is it okay for a Porsche or Ferrari dealer to make $20,000 gross profit on thier products then ??

A salesman's job is to make as much money as they can on the product they sell.

If OMVIC or the gov't thinks this is being ripped off, then they should have fixed pricing for everything !

Ya, and as far as the media sensationalizing the price of the car as being $66k (including the price of financing) everyone here should try that just for fun... I know that if we all took their payment on our cars and multiplied it by our terms we wouldn't get a number anywhere near our MSRPs either...

I mean I don't like to see a disabled lady being ripped off or anything but I hate when they latch onto shit like this and run with it...

[MazdaMatt]

I mean, there's an MSRP list price on the thing....lol


They told her that it was a new car when it was actually a demo with 6k on it. MSRP is irrelevent at that point.

As for having a mental disability meaning that she shouldn't drive, maybe it doens't reflect her reaction time or ability to follow road rules, but only affects her logic, social interaction abilities and math skills.

You'd have to show me hard numbers that half of Ontario's retarded people can't drive as well as half of Ontario's licenced drivers!

edit: sometimes those demographics can be easily confused

[Doug Stark]

Is it okay for a Porsche or Ferrari dealer to make $20,000 gross profit on thier products then ??

Yes - when the product retails for $150K or more (most Ferrari's are well over $200) - that would make it a minimum 15% mark up which is quite normal for these two firms. This car (Mazda) retailed for a lot less then that, try mid $20's, with avg options, maybe $30K. The mark up was well over 100% on this vehicle.

Add in the fact that I believe this woman to be slightly mentally challenged - any fair minded business person would have found a way to dissuade her from buying a car she couldn't afford, may not have needed and didn't understand the cost of the transaction. Making a profit is NOT a dirty word - most buyers understand this - understand that everyone has to put food on the table including all the way down to the person changing oil or ordering parts.

But it was the total SCALE and the outright greed of this transaction that staggers pretty much most of the public and other car industry insiders.

When you figure you NEED to do this to a buyer - that you just can't help yourself as you watch a 'pigeon' come through the door - then you need to find another industry that rewards this, say the banking industry! :) (Ok, that WAS a shot… :p )

[abrracing]

I dont quite know where your mark up numbers are coming from, but with the two Japanese companies and one domestic its more like 6.5%. A top line Mazda 6 GT-V6 if I recall has an MSRP around $38,000 or just over $40,000 with Navigation.
Keep in mind there is no such thing as a "demo" legally on a bill of sale, its either new or used, with a vehicle that has been licensed and driven being classified as used. Having said that, there is no such thing as MSRP on a used vehicle, and I believe that OMVIC states as such, that's what is so confusing in this case.

Also if a person finances on a 60/84, based on 40K before taxes your interest for the 60months at 5.8% is about 9K plus your payout or refinancing amount of $14.8K or so at the end. So with those numbers your cost of borrowing is almost 24K. Believe it or not that is not that far fetched in today's ecomony. It is kind of like someone who bought a house 15 years ago for 140K and still owes 180K on it today from refinancing etc.

[John Powell]

IIRC, without going through all of this thread again, she went to this dealership to buy tires for her current car, and was pressured into buying a "new" car, with all of the added costs. She has a mental disability, not a physical one, and if her disability was severe enough to impair her driving capability, she wouldn't have had a licence as her doctor is bound by law to report such a condition. So what we have is someone who was perhaps timid and a little confused, who was sold another car under duress. And as this dealer has now lost his franchise due to other similar situations, the evidence clearly shows that her complaint has merit despite her condition.

[Carguy]

Just catching up on this thread...

My 2 cents:

1) the dealership got what it deserved in the end
2) the consumer should have been better informed and at least capable of saying no to pressure tactics - anyway, go to a tire shop if you need tires :rolleyes:
3) not all dealerships operate this way
4) don't trust the media to report with 100% accuracy

I am in private business myself and REPUTATION is what keeps it going - so I agree 100% with abrracing. If a business mistreats people or rips them off it will catch up to them just like it has for this Mazda dealer. My reputation and how well I treat my customers earns me my next contract or else I'm out of business - fast. I'm not the only one who thinks this way, so if it's not 90% of the dealers that are ethical then I believe it's close to that.

I've had good experiences with Mazda, Honda, Ford, Nissan and Subaru dealerships in Ottawa such that I'd recommend them to anyone. Did they try to upsell me and suggest options I didn't ask for? You bet! I just say "no thanks". It's how North Americans do business. Hell, fast food outlets do it all the time and no one complains about it. "You can upsize for just $0.50 more", or the infamous "Would you like fries with that?"

Be happy this isn't Mexico. I just spent some vacation time there recently and the starting price on any item in the local market has a 100% markup for gringos. Haggling is a way of life for them. If you feel insulted by car salespeople here in Canada, then don't go to a local Mexican market when you vacation there. I don't know if or how the Mexican government protects its consumers but I'd say we have it pretty good here judging by the outcome of this story so far.

One last thought: if one is determined that the most of the world is out to get them or cheat them, then that's they company they'll attract. I'll assume the businesses I choose to deal with are ethical, unless their reputation precedes them or they prove to be unethical - it pays to be informed. So by all means arm yourself with knowledge in case the cheaters find you, I simply believe there is no need to paint the majority of dealerships as unethical just to protect yourself or to vent bad experiences. :cool:

[RobCrx]

So she is now capable of knowing she had gotten ripped off, but she is not capable of knowing how to buy a car in the first place ? :confused: If she is that stupid 'no pun intended' she should not be behind the wheel ! PERIOD.

[RacerJason]

Has nobody any family on ODSP or a relative that has a learning disability or is developmentally disabled? Please refrain from using the term "retard" unless we are talking about timing.

And Rob, seriously, I'm sure the woman went home and called a son or daughter bewildered after the purchase not understanding quite what happened and they started the ball rolling. Yes of course she should have taken a knowledgeable person with her to make the tire purchase regardless where it was. There are lots of people that purchase items or service needlessly from a dealership out of a sense of security.

The investigation was undertaken by a reliable third party, the media is reporting the facts with some sugar coated but the fact remains, and has been reiterated by many others that the dealer acted in a highly unprofessional manner. If my Mother went in to a dealership alone suffering from... say... Parkinsons... and walked out with a car costing 20% more then it should before financing as accessories were being charged quadruple then I too would be calling the Star, City TV, you name, and assembling the media on their doorstep along with contacting the manufacturers head office, etc.

And haven't you noticed? Anyone can get a license in this country.

Close this thread already, the posts have started to make less and less sense.