new Solo I car ideas ... BMW? [Archive] - CASC Ontario Region Message Forums

Rob McAuley

11-28-2003, 12:47 AM

Let me take a crack at it.

The BMW 3-seriees changed in 91/92 from the E30 to the E36. The 2.5l engine came over without much of an update, but grew to 2.8l in '96.

Go-Fast mods for both the E30 and E36 are popular. Check out www.turnermotorsports.com or www.bimmerworld.com for some well thought of tuners.

The E30's are popular track cars due to the low cost. E36's are thought to have more potential (wider track, better aero, etc.).

Wheels for the E30 can be hard to find - very little over 15". The popular choice for an E36 is 17"x8" wheels.

Biggest bang-for-the-buck - after track tires - is suspension. You have tonnes of choice, from sport springs & bilstiens to coil-overs to Group-N. Big brake kits and engine swaps are popular.

Some current projects...

E36 Euro M3 engine dropped into an E30 325i. Suspension & brakes added. One of the fastest BMW club racers.

E36 325 will be getting an M3 engine. Old engine being passed on to an E30 318is.

M3 Cams added to a 325 engine add about 20 hp.

There is alot you can do, depending on budget, and there is an active used part market as well.

If I was starting from scratch, I'd find a BMW at the bottom of its class (E30 318is/55.7PIPs?), take 8-9 points for suspension, and move up 1 class. Add brakes, intake, exhaust, and run in GT4.

...and hope ChrisP moves up to GT3 next season.

Good Luck!

TYSON

11-28-2003, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by Nissan Racer
Offer Chris Sorenson some money for his, its hardly been used :D

I heard it had been.....um....heavily used, all at once!!:D

Carguy

11-28-2003, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by Dave

Bah...get a NSX and be done with it! ;)

Maybe ScotcH prefers "the thrill of the choice"! :p

Just a thought... What about Mazdas? I'm thinking MX-3 or perhaps MX-6. Certainly the performance aftermarket for these is not a vast as Honda or even BMW or Nissan, but I've seen alot of street modified MX-3's...

ScotcH

11-28-2003, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by Carguy
Maybe ScotcH prefers "the thrill of the choice"! :p

Just a thought... What about Mazdas? I'm thinking MX-3 or perhaps MX-6. Certainly the performance aftermarket for these is not a vast as Honda or even BMW or Nissan, but I've seen alot of street modified MX-3's...

Believe me ... If I could afford an NSX, I'd definitly would not think twice about it. Always wanted one, and will eventually have one (though they're not the fastest out there).

Not really thinking about the mazdas, simply because of FWD. If I do get a FWD, it will likely be a honda. I will look into the 240sx idea, but I've heard that nissan motors are not that great (everybody has an opinion, I guess).

The corolla seems like it would be cheap ... ugly, but cheap! Thanks for the input guys.

Any more info on the original BMW question (<91 vs 92+)? (thanks, Rob!)

ScotcH

11-28-2003, 01:23 PM

What about late 80's Toyota supra? N/A or Turbo? How do they hold up?

maxrpm

11-28-2003, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by ScotcH
What about late 80's Toyota supra? N/A or Turdo? How do they hold up?

They blow head gaskets....

Stick to RWD, I miss it and that where I'm going for next year. Get an E30 or E36 or the 240SX....great cars on the cheap.

Dave

11-28-2003, 01:43 PM

come to think of it, Grassroots did a fantastic series of articles on the E30 Bimmers, comparing the cost of building a track worthy M3, 325is and 325ie or ix or something like that. If you're a subscriber, check your issues from a couple years ago, or I can try to dig them up for you. They did dyno testing galore and ended up concluding the best way to go was one of the 325's rather than the M3, since you can build a 325 that's just as fast for less money and with a cheaper and more easily maintained engine. Or at least I think that's whay they concluded :)

maxrpm

11-28-2003, 01:47 PM

Look at Pat's '94 325, he runs 1.37s at Mosport with a stock motor.

ADAM

11-28-2003, 01:57 PM

240sx motors the KA series are very reliable...ran one for 2 years in solo 1...no issues at all...plus they are cheap since the market is flooded with them...motor and tranny for free-$300...lots of aftermarket support, cheap parts...cheap brake upgrades...they are RWD..in base form put out about 127rwhp but can be modded to over 500rwhp....lots of racing suspension parts for them....and are sleek looking and handle not too bad..i have had one for 14 years...

adam

Chris P

11-28-2003, 03:45 PM

Adam has my head spining.........these nissans are sounding better and better

move up to GT3? not likely, down to T1 more likely. Racing is too expensive.

LateApex

11-28-2003, 04:41 PM

Nothing makes up for a lousy chassis.

The BMW E30 (and E36) aftermarkets are HUGE and affordable too.

Dave and Sam are on the right track- check out your back issues of GRM.

Go German.

John P

11-28-2003, 04:47 PM

There is a good article on 240SX's in the Dec.2003 Grassroots. You can get lots of advice from Adam on go fast alternatives. He may have some parts for sale(Turbos).

V8s also fit to replace that truck motor. Adam is dreaming about a 500hp crate motor.

ScotcH

11-28-2003, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by LateApex
Nothing makes up for a lousy chassis.

Are you talking about the 240 here?

It looks like my choice is going to come down to 240sx or a E30/36. If it will be an E36, it will have to be a 92 (no vanos :( ), since the price will be getting up there. What sort of cash could I get for the interior, do you suppose?

btw, I unfortunately do not have any GRM issues, since I really didn't get into thin until this year ... time for a subscription!

Dave Barker

11-28-2003, 06:23 PM

Arek, I used to own an 87 NA Supra. Nice car but an overwgt and slow pig and you are already used to that.

I'm with Jeff re getting a 3rd gen Mustang, absolutely the best bang for the buck but Jordan is right that the chassis is crap and will need a lot of work. OTOH engine has got lots of power stock, cheap to fix and tons of power potential for not much money. The BMW is definitely going to handle and brake better but whats the challenge in that?? Nothin' like letting a live axle bounce the rear end around the track and steering with your R foot. Everytime I take someone for a ride in my Camaro they all say " wow this rear end moves around a lot " but its really solidly planted compared to a Mustang.

ice/solo racer

11-28-2003, 08:59 PM

"THE CORROLLA SEEMS LIKE IT WOULD BE CHEAP...UGLY BUT CHEAP!"

Thats not very nice,I didn't say anything mean about your car!:D

Just wondering if your planning on a track only car or a dual purpose car?,if your going track only than I would base my choice first on parts support first,vehicle weight second and thirdly what class you want/will be running in.
Based on parts support and weight the miata is the top choice in my mind,finding one for a reasonable amount isn't that easy as most decent 90/91's I've seen are on the far side of $5000 as starting point.240's are everywhere in the trader with a ton around $1500 and up,corolla gts's are getting tough to find a good one-I know as I'm currently looking for another one(quite a few in the southern us)but not much to pick from up here.I have no experience with bimmer's.
The lighter the car the better it responds,the easier it is on tires and brakes and other parts.No offence to the pony car camp but I've owned vehicles from every maker except volvo,bmw,saab and the exotics obviously and there is a definate difference on how the domestics versus imorts are screwed together,I wouldn't want to beat on a domestic as hard as I do the imports I've owned(duck and run I know:) )
I'll take light weight over brute force just about every time.

Dave

11-28-2003, 08:59 PM

Arek, if I can dig up the E30 GRM articles for you I'll scan and e-mail them to you...

GR8 Ride

11-28-2003, 09:32 PM

Hmm...I'll try not to take any offense to Dave's comment about "where's the challenge in that?" :) .....

A couple of notes on where you may want to start with this project Arek, and where you may want to go long term. I can at least offer some advice from the BMW perspective....

Let's look at the tracks you're most likely to run in the SWO area; Cayuga, Shannonville, Mosport DDT (all Solo 1 tracks) and *potentially* some time at the Mosport Grand Prix track. If the majority of your time is at the smaller tracks, then the E30 (91 and prior) BMW is a better choice. Shorter wheelbase, a little more prone to oversteer (a good thing on those tracks), lighter weight and *generally* cheaper parts, mostly due to high availability. Also a much cheaper entry price, going from '91 to '92.

Power difference from the '91 (2.5L M20 motor) to the '92 (2.5L M50 motor) is moderate, from 168 HP to 189 HP. They are two completely different motors though (despite Rob saying they were the same....we'll have to smack him for that one :) ). The M50 motor is torquey'er (quick game of Scrabble, anyone?), but also resides in a heavier chassis. Either motor is easily good for 300,000 km, including some serious track time.

Again, if the plan is to compete seriously in Solo 1, then I'd suggest the E30 ('91 and prior) model is a better choice. If you're expecting to spend more time on the Grand Prix track, then the E36 ('92 to '99) has an aerodynamic advantage, along with a rear suspension advantage. It's also generally the *easier* car to drive, (apparently everybody keeps telling me it's easy to do 1:37's around Mosport with 158 rwhp!).

The nice thing about the BMW's is that a reasonable blend between daily driveability and on-track performance can be had. A competent track car can still be comfortably driven to work on a daily basis, without requiring a kidney belt.

There is also a ton of local expertise on building and race preparing BMW's, both the E30 and E36 chassis. Also, a pretty healthy aftermarket and used marketplace exists, in which one man's trash is often another man's treasure.

Given the choice between a car with great handling / low power vs a car with massive power and shitty handling, I'll take the great handling car anyday. Three big reasons I'll say this. One, you'll learn FAR more about driving running a low power, athletic car than you would from driving a high powered pig of a car. This isn't a knock on Chris / Dave etc, but merely pointing out that learning to carry serious speed through the corners will pay off far more in the long run. Once you then add serious power into the mix, you're going to be one hell of a driver.

Two, track conditions aren't always what we'd like them to be. I'll take that underpowered, great handling car in the rain ANY DAY! Wet or simply slick conditions are the great equalizer for underpowered cars.

Three, it's generally easier to add HP to a great handling car than it is to change the suspension geometry of a poor handling car.

Given the choice between a BMW (either genre) or the 240SX, I'd take the BMW anyday. The 240 SX is BOTH underpowered, AND poor handling right out of the box, compared to the BMW. While you can make the 240SX handle better, and add more power to it, the same things can be done to the BMW. In the end, the BMW is just a superior platform to start with.

Pat

msix

11-28-2003, 10:44 PM

You were looking for info on BMW, right? So here is my limited experience.

I was very lucky to find a true gem last year in June. Someone sold his very nice and well modified 1985 325es. It was ready to go on the track to have some fun. It's not for racing, just fun with a real Sleeper. The guy I bought the car from had spent way more on the modifications then he sold the car for. I did not even know then HOW lucky I was with this buy.

Off course the older E30 (pre-91) are a lot cheaper then the E36 (92+), but a good and solid model is also harder to find. Parts are available everywhere and not any more expensive then for most other cars. If you are on a tight budget it may take a little to really get it to a competitive stage. If you can spend 10K, you should be able to find a pretty well prepared car, or spend 5K on a good body and another 5K for the usuall basic improvements. Motor transplant is not cheap, but well worth it.

My car is a E30 model and has a M50 motor in it which came from a 95 325is (E36) with only 10k km on it. Other parts like a lightend Flywheel a M3 Gearbox, Muffler, Intake, Chip bring it up to a dyno meassured 207rwHP. The power to weight ratio is nice but it is still too heavy, since it has all the nice stuff still in it.
Other drivers are often surprised when they get passed on the track by my old klonker. However, it is still only a normal 2,5l motor, nothing too special, just out of a newer model. Most of the time the advantage is related to the handling of this car.

This car is a blast to drive and it took me a while to get the hang of it. RWD cars are just so much more fun when you can hang out the rearend and drift sideways through some gates. Off course, eventually I learned that this much fun does not get me any fast lap times. When I realized that this car could actually be real competitive, I got serious. For example, at a SOLO II in Blainville, Quebec, I was fighting it out with a Subie driver who's AWD car has over 100HP more under the hood. We switched places through four runs and at the end he beat me by only 3 onehundreds of a second. I was VERY happy with my car on that day.

After a pretty successful year in SOLO II, I would like to try SOLO I next year. I am not expecting too much, because my car will not be very well classified with all the mods.

There are lots of other cars out there that are cheaper and maybe easier to repair/ modify, and that's what it is, there are LOTS of the same. But if you have driven a BMW, it is hard to find anything equaly satisfying.

Klaus

Dave

11-29-2003, 12:09 AM

very interesting thread we've got going here.

Given the choice between a car with great handling / low power vs a car with massive power and shitty handling, I'll take the great handling car anyday.

I completely agree, and let me just say that doing 1:37's at Mosport with 158rwhp is very very impressive. I wouldn't have thought it was even possible, to be honest, in a car weighing anything over 2,000 lbs. Pat, your car must be set up amazingly well and the driver can't suck too badly either :p

I've never driven a Bimmer, but having driven Adam's 240SX I really can't imagine the E30 has a handling advantage. With the right shocks, springs and swaybars a 240SX is a fantastic handling car and has proven it's speed as a track machine in many different Japansese race series as well as Improved Touring in the U.S. You can also fit 245's all around on the 240SX with ease (265's would probably fit on the back if you had enough power to warrant it), which may be larger than you can fit on a E30.

Just my opinions and a bit more food for thought...

ScotcH

11-29-2003, 12:45 AM

Wow ... I'm liking all this discussion. Everyone can benefit from talks like this, even though people tend to lean towards their favs ;) (I still love the Legend too!)

As always it will come down to price vs wife, but so far she has been awfully understanding :) I have a lot of research ahead of me in the next few weeks, and those articles would be a great help, Dave. Thanks y'all!

ps ... will my 39 pairs of 225/45/17s fit an e30/e36?

GR8 Ride

11-29-2003, 01:03 AM

A couple of things. Yes, 245/45/16 is a relatively easy fit on an E30 (and can be done on the E36 as well Dave). A lot of guys are running 245/40/17's on E30's quite successfully; 17x8.5 or 17x9 rims.

As to the 39 pairs of 225/45/17 tires, it's the stock size for an E36 (at least in the front of the M3 anyway). No problem burning those up on a BMW....

Oh, and trust me Dave, a stock E30 vs a stock 240SX (an ex-girlfriend had one; auto-x'd it a few times) isn't even close. I'm sure Adam's car handles quite a bit better than stock, but the same upgrades can be done to the E30, and it's also a lighter car to begin with.

For awhile, I had been looking for a 240SX as an occasional track toy, and saving the race car for regional weekends only (gave in and bought a Mustang instead!!). However, I found the aftermarket for the 240SX wasn't nearly as large as for the BMW.

Oh, and my car weighs in at 2900 lbs with me in it, in full race trim. If I could get my car to weigh closer to 2,000 lbs, I'd REALLY be happy!!

Oh well, guess I'll just have to swap motors and go for the greater HP route!

Pat

Dave

11-29-2003, 11:20 AM

Jazuz Pat, your car weighs 2900 lbs with you in it, only has 158rwhp, and you can turn 1:37's on the big track? I believe I have just found my personal driving instructor! :p

Ok, quick data check on both cars reveals the following:

'89 325i weighs in at 2811 lbs and has a horsepower rating of 168hp, yielding a power-to-weight ratio of 16.7. In the Solo 1 spreadsheet we've given this car a suspension rating of 60%, which is quite high for an older car. By '91, the curb weight on all the 325's creeps up over 3,000 lbs according to 'The Standard Catalog of Imported Cars'.

'89 240SX weighs in at 2684 lbs and has a horsepower arting of 140 hp, yielding a power-to-weight ratio of 19.2. In the Solo 1 spreadsheet we've given this car a suspension rating of 55% (though we've been debating raising it).

In terms of chassis and suspension design, the E30 features a 101.2'' wheelbase and a 55.4'' track width up front and a 55.7'' track width out back. MacPherson struts are used up front and an independent semi-trailing arm set-up is used out back.

The 240SX has a wheelbase of 97.4'' and track width of 57.7'' and 57.5'' front a rear. The front suspension is the exact same design as the E30, with MacPherson struts and a swaybar. The rear suspension is a multi-link design with coil springs and swaybar.

So straight off the showroom floor, the 325 definitely appears to be a considerably faster car in a straight line, but since the 240SX is lighter and has as wider track my thinking would be that it could be made to handle better than the E30 with the right combination of suspension upgrades. The stock 240SX is very softly sprung and underdampened (which I suspect is how Pat drove his ex's car), but when you upgrade these the car is a completely different animal (as Adam learned this year). Bimmers tend to be very good handling cars off the showroom floor, so this may be contributing to the perception that the E30 is a better handling car. Dunno, just a thought.

But some cars just have a magic balance when it comes to race track use, and it sure sounds like the E30 may have it (or maybe just Pat has it).

There's definitely no shortage of aftermarket for the 240SX though. There's an unlimited supply of very nice go-fast stuff out of Japan for this car, plus the incredibly popular SR20DET engine upgrade out of the Japanese version of the car is a relatively cheap and effective way to add 100+ horsepower. The stock SR20DET seems to support 300 hp quite easily.

We could go round and round on this all day :) Too bad I've gotta go grocery shopping!

Chris91GT

11-30-2003, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by GR8 Ride
Given the choice between a car with great handling / low power vs a car with massive power and shitty handling, I'll take the great handling car anyday. Three big reasons I'll say this. One, you'll learn FAR more about driving running a low power, athletic car than you would from driving a high powered pig of a car. This isn't a knock on Chris / Dave etc, but merely pointing out that learning to carry serious speed through the corners will pay off far more in the long run. Once you then add serious power into the mix, you're going to be one hell of a driver.
Pat

OTOH... there's nothing quite like taking said shitty-handling car and forcing it to handle. ;) I mean, hey, if the car does all the work, what's the driver for? LOL! That long pedal on the right is called yaw-control. Or in the case of the Mustang... the middle combined with the right! :eek:

:D

Dave Barker

11-30-2003, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by Chris91GT
OTOH... there's nothing quite like taking said shitty-handling car and forcing it to handle. ;) I mean, hey, if the car does all the work, what's the driver for? :eek:

:D

My point exactly Chris. Having owned an almost stock Supra with its IRS and not much power, all I can say is any idiot could make that car go moderately fast as it was sooooo forgiving. Likely similar to most BMWs. The first time I took my absolutely stock Mustang on the track I scared the hell out of myself. " I'm gonna die in this thing" or so I thought. Frankly I think there should be some extra pride (or maybe PIPs) for those of us driving live axle cars, at least on bumpy tracks. Really we all know that the best drivers in the world all drive in Nascar and Trans-am, they just don't get a chance to show it often. Meanwhile those F 1 guys with all their high tech don't even have to worry about shifts, wheel spin or even launching etc. Almost like playing a video game. (LOL)

Interesting observation though is that stock Pony cars handle like crap while stock high end cars like BMWs handle very well. As you spend money on pony cars their handling improves significantly and certainly they can be made less diabolical while safer designed BMWs etc. likely become somewhat nastier or more twitchy in their responses as they are modified,( I would assume).

So Arek , you wanna go safe and predictable or wild and wooly?

BTW I believe Ron Beyeler in his 3rd gen camaro has also been doing 1:37s at Mosport in a car that definitely has much better wgt/hp but handles more poorly than Pat's BMW. Either way you "pays your money and takes your choice"

If you want to use the arguement that learning how to maintain momentum is the only thing needed to learn to race or go fast they everyone should be driving Formula Vee.

ice/solo racer

11-30-2003, 05:27 PM

Dave as far as the comment regarding the augument that momentum is the only thing needed to go fast,my comment is adding power/switching to a shitty car should always be easier for someone used to maximizing the cars potencial rather than someone that just points and shoots!.
Of course I have to consider myself a "momentum driver" as I've never been able to afford power!!:D

Chris91GT

11-30-2003, 06:04 PM

Originally posted by ice/solo racer
Dave as far as the comment regarding the augument that momentum is the only thing needed to go fast,my comment is adding power/switching to a shitty car should always be easier for someone used to maximizing the cars potencial rather than someone that just points and shoots!.

I'm not sure that that statement is really accurate. In either case you need to maximize the car's potential in order to make it quick. In the case of low-HP cars you learn to utilize the car's handling ability in order to conserve momentum. In low-handling, high-HP cars you learn to utilize any and all applicable (and perhaps non-applicable) laws of physics in order to make the car respond and attempt to go where you want. High-HP means nothing if the car isn't placed on a line such that the throttle can actually be applied.

Shannonville's Fabi is a good example. That long straight is useless if you can't put your foot on the throttle before the end of the exit curbing. It takes more than a little "finesse" in order to rotate a nose-heavy brute such that the throttle can be planted to the floor at the apex of that corner.

I think that in either case the driver is using just as much skill to make short time. Low-HP drivers are working hard to maximize grip. But high-HP, ill-handling car drivers are working just as hard trying to minimize rear grip on entry and maximize it on the way out.

Sounds like car control and weight-transfer to me in either case!

DECH_92

11-30-2003, 06:16 PM

Someone that just points and shoots!.
Hmmm sounds simple enough.

Chris91GT

11-30-2003, 06:53 PM

Honestly Arek, it will really come down to your personal preference. The BMW guys are biased, the Honda guys are biased, and I am 110% biased. :D

That said, any car you choose will be fun because you'll be on the track racing it. Any of the above cars will work just fine (albeit with very different personalities), and each has plenty of aftermarket and replacement parts supply.

Given that it's already winter and the cars are mostly tucked away, it's hard to hitch a track ride with someone owning one of the above for comparison. My suggestion... go with your gut feeling. Odds are you're already favouring a car, and for a reason... probably because it already matches your personality. And being comfortable in a car is the first step to going fast in it.

ice/solo racer

11-30-2003, 07:06 PM

My post wasn't aimed at the decent drivers of nose heavy ill handling over powered pigs!:rolleyes:
My post simply stated that a driver that learned how to maximize momentum thru necessity should have an easier time adjusting to adding more power/jumping into something that goes better then turns.Conversly somone without the skills to recognize the needed lines for momentum into a car with little power won't likely be as quick right off as the the other way around.
Just my observation anyway,it doesn't have to be agreed with
:D

Dave Barker

11-30-2003, 10:40 PM

Originally posted by ice/solo racer

My post simply stated that a driver that learned how to maximize momentum thru necessity should have an easier time adjusting to adding more power/jumping into something that goes better then turns.Conversly somone without the skills to recognize the needed lines for momentum into a car with little power won't likely be as quick right off as the the other way around.
Just my observation anyway,it doesn't have to be agreed with
:D
My point was that if a car can handle very well it likely doesn't need the same finesse that an ill handling car does. Certainly having an ill handling but (relatively) powerfull car means that I use the brakes much more, am more likely to be thrown a proverbial "curve ball" on corner entry or even mid corner, and still have to deal with some snap oversteer on exit all the while trying to get traction out of a bouncing rear end. In other words the poor handling car needs more finesse than the good handling car.

The racing line for a "momentum" car is not all that different than for a "power" car. (After all preservation of cornering speed is vital to going fast no matter what you drive). Its just that it is much more difficult to keep the "power" car on that line.

GR8 Ride

11-30-2003, 11:36 PM

Well, now hasn't this thread gotten interesting all of a sudden...woo hoo! :)

Anyhow, it's a point we'll never agree upon, but that will hardly prevent me from arguing it anyway... ;)

To be honest, the truth probably lies somewhere in between all of us. To be a truly, good driver, one needs to spend time in a poor handling, torquey car, along with time in a low HP, well handling car. People who drive just one or the other will never realize quite what the other side is like, and there are positive aspects to both. One driver is hardly any better than the other...the ONLY way to determine that is by putting them both in the same car, which NEITHER of them are familiar with. Laptimes are, of course, the autosport equivalent of dick measuring!

Both extremes are capable of forgiving a driver his or her mistakes; if corner entry is too slow in a torquey car, it's easy enough to get on the loud pedal and blast out of the corner anyway. If a good handling car is slightly off-line, it can often forgive the driver his or her mistake, and allow them to successfully maintain reasonable speed through the corner. I've driven both, owned both and raced both.

Remember, in addition to racing the BMW in Touring / GT Sprints, I've also raced a '71 240Z in Vintage / G70. The 240Z is a twitchy, fussy, no caster dog to whale around the track, and I was able to maintain 1:41's - 1:42's around Mosport in that. It has NONE of the razor precision that the BMW does. And of course, my daily driver / auto-X toy is an 89 LX Mustang....

Again, my point behind taking the good handling car over the poor handling one is this; it's a LOT easier to buy more HP for a good handling car than it is to take a shitty handling car, and redesign the suspension. Even picking up ALL the go-fast bits from a place like Griggs Racing might get a Fox body into the 1:35 - 1:39 times around Mosport. Without spending HUGE money, it's impossible to redesign the entire Mustang suspension away from the hacked McStrut front setup, much less completely counter the live rear axle. (despite Watts links et al).

However, it's easy enough and cheap enough to add huge power to a great handling car (just look at Adam's, for example). If I were to add 100 rwhp to my BMW, I could be in the 1:33's without too much difficulty, on RA1s. I could probably shave another second off that with slicks; more if I dropped some weight (car AND driver....).

If a person is going to purposely build a race car from the ground up (using a production chassis), I'd highly suggest starting with the most competent chassis one can afford. Nearly every tuner in the world sells HP upgrades for one's chosen brand of racecar; precious few companies sell really competent suspension equipment for said car, and hardly anyone engineers, builds and sells wholesale suspension redesigns for poor handling cars.

The one point I will seriously dispute however, is this. Just because a car has great handling, does not mean "any idiot" can get it to perform well, particularly around a balls-out track like Mosport. ANY car, driven to it's particular limits, needs finesse to get it around the track. When you're at the limit of adhesion for a particular car, it makes no difference whether it's a good handling, or a lousy handling car. Precision and finesse is a requirement to maximize corner speed regardless of chassis.

Let's look at my BMW vs your Camaro, or Chris' Mustang. Say my cornering speed is 20% higher than either of yours, and I'm at the limit of adhesion for my car, and you guys are at the limits of adhesion for your respective cars. The same amount of finesse, smoothness and precision is required for any of us; each of us makes the same mistake, each of us would suffer the same consequences. Despite what you might believe, it's not any easier to drive my car at the limits of adhesion than it is to drive yours.

Sure, if I slowed my car down to YOUR cornering speed, then my car would likely be more forgiving than yours, and it's probably easier to drive my car at 150 km/h around turn 2 than it is to drive yours at 150 km/h around turn 2.

Now take my cornering speed of 180 km/h around turn 2, vs your 150 km/h around turn 2. It takes just as much skill to manage my grip around the corner at that speed as it does your grip, at your speed.

So I'm officially disputing the claim that it's more difficult to keep the power car on the line around the corner than the handling car. The skill required to drive ANY car at the limit of adhesion remains the same.

Pat

Chris P

11-30-2003, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by Dave Barker
Certainly having an ill handling but (relatively) powerfull car means that I use the brakes much more, am more likely to be thrown a proverbial "curve ball" on corner entry or even mid corner, and still have to deal with some snap oversteer on exit all the while trying to get traction out of a bouncing rear end. In other words the poor handling car needs more finesse than the good handling car.

See arek, read that over and ask yourself "Do i really want to drive a car that fights me every step of the way" ;)

I actually had the chance to drive a few mustangs this year and you know what. It was nothing like i expected! I thought the car was going to be a absolute beast. However i found the car to be very forgiving and controllable. Alot of fun Actually. i jumped into Russ's SVT and then into Mohamed's DECH, back to back. They are both the same generation mustang, I think a hp is the bigest difference( 305hp vs. 220hp?), maybe the diff too? What did i learn? I like HP
Also, both cars were a blast and have potiential.

The current classification system allows a wide range of cars and modification levels to compete compeditively, giving you a much wider specturm of cars to choose from when compared to past years.

At the end of the day i don't think it matters what car you buy. They will all be fun in their own way. Try to decide what fits you, your budget, and your goals.

TYSON

12-01-2003, 07:37 AM

Originally posted by GR8 Ride

The one point I will seriously dispute however, is this. Just because a car has great handling, does not mean "any idiot" can get it to perform well,

Pat

:D I'll prove that theory for you, just watch!!:D

LateApex

12-01-2003, 08:27 AM

My point was that if a car can handle very well it likely doesn't need the same finesse that an ill handling car does.

Sorry Doc- I gotta go with Pat and call this absolute BS. Driving any car at the limit of adhesion takes finesse.

I have driven a low-powered (134hp) BMW and a high powered (300hp) Ford at the track and they both require the same concentration. The key is in HOW the chassis "talks to you".

IMHO, the main differences are:

BMW's have been designed with the driver as a consideration rather than an afterthought. The chassis is communicative and balanced, the steering has feel, and you can actually sense something about the attitude of the car through the seat of the pants at speed....imagine that?

Fords have steering that is like a mop in a bucket. The Quadra-Bind Son-Of-Fairmont rear end feels as though it's trying to bite you most of the time. Follow a Fox-bodied Stang through T2 at Mosport and watch the body shift to the right about 2 inches before it finally settles against the bushings, preparing to rebound if you blink behind the wheel. Overall you feel as though the car is taking you for a ride, and you may or may not be able to add inputs that can save your bacon if need be. Too much work for the laptimes generated.

Honestly, it sounds like you Pony Car Diehards are fishing for some sort of medal for "Driving The Most Ill-Handling Track Car Quickly." Unfortunately that award doesn't exist.....if you choose to drive a car that is like clinging to the back of a mechanical bull, that is your choice. What I am trying to point out is that you can relax, calm down and focus on driving in a well-designed chassis.

Off Topic Here-

Really we all know that the best drivers in the world all drive in Nascar and Trans-am

That would explain why so many guys in F1 got their start in those two series.....
I assume you're joking here, Dave.... (I hope it's a joke, becasue I sure laughed out loud!)

Good thread here !!

Jordan

Chris91GT

12-01-2003, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by GR8 Ride
Sure, if I slowed my car down to YOUR cornering speed, then my car would likely be more forgiving than yours, and it's probably easier to drive my car at 150 km/h around turn 2 than it is to drive yours at 150 km/h around turn 2.

Now take my cornering speed of 180 km/h around turn 2, vs your 150 km/h around turn 2. It takes just as much skill to manage my grip around the corner at that speed as it does your grip, at your speed.

Pat

Come on now Pat... 150kph through 2 is a cool-down lap. Give us more credit than that! Even with ham-fisted moi at the helm the ol' rubber-chassis can still manage 170 mid-corner. :p

maxrpm

12-01-2003, 10:57 AM

I'm siding with Pat and Jordan on this one as well but I think we have to take into perspective of who is driving what type of car.

Assuming equal power and tires the better handling car is going to be the fastest but that doesn't mean it's the most forgiving and I'd argue that it's the opposite with a suspension tuned for the racing. Take an F1 car for example, their the best handling cars out there but I'm confident in saying that any of us driving that car near it's limit would loop it fairly quickly. F1 too extreme?, let's go to the S2000 one of the best handling cars in production today, but it also has a reputation for having the ass end come around a corner faster then the front in unskilled hands.

I've driven Mustangs (my own) and Camaros (friend's) at the track and while both were a handful I found that the slides were very easy to catch, for me that is forgiving.

Anyways back to Arek, I think you have to figure what your goals are. You mentioned regional racing, look at the classes that interest you and what is running well and pick a car from that pool. Attend a race and talk to the people racing the cars. In RWD format I think the E30 is the best bang for the buck. Concentrate on the handling of the car and worry about the power when you stop progressing with your lap times.

GR8 Ride

12-01-2003, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by Chris91GT
Come on now Pat... 150kph through 2 is a cool-down lap. Give us more credit than that! Even with ham-fisted moi at the helm the ol' rubber-chassis can still manage 170 mid-corner. :p

Chris,

If you have time to look at the speedometer half-way around Turn 2, you're not going fast enough!

Pat

John P

12-01-2003, 11:26 AM

Arek, Don't let all those BMW guys run you down to the poor house.

The Mustang is an excellent car for Solo and Racing, when prepared properly. Chris' Mustang is very well balanced and has lots of power. I warmed it up for him on Nelson, and found I could easily get it dance around the track without any nasty bite you in the ass characteristics.

I took out John Charles' BMW on TMP and found that it handled well, but didn't have the right gear ratios or torque for that track. Maybe an M motor and transmission would help in the fun factor.

I spent many laps in Russ' SVT and found it to be great fun, except the suspension needed improvement.

Overall, I preferred Chris' Mustang the best and could play with that car on any track all day long.

John

maxrpm

12-01-2003, 11:44 AM

Not a BMW guy here, so I'm unbiased in my suggestions...I drive Maxima, FWD with a solid axel, the worst of both worlds.

I plan to have something different next year so I am in the same boat as Arek and E30s and Mustangs have been on my list of cars. I've elimintaed Mustangs because I've had one and I don't a solid rear axel again. I have two other choices and an E36 is one of them.

LateApex

12-01-2003, 11:58 AM

Don't let all those BMW guys run you down to the poor house

It's statements like that which perpetuate the MYTH that running BMW's on-track is somehow more costly than running other marques.

So I have to ask:

Can you provide some basis in fact for that statement?

Do you know what parts cost to improve a Mustang, and improve a BMW of similar vintage? (I do.)

Let me repeat that I have driven and modified both Fords and BMW's on the track and there is no appreciable difference in the costs associated with modifyng each car.

The difference is that with a BMW, you are starting with a well-thought-out chassis that is not the derivative of something low-tech and antiquated like say, a Ford Fairmont.

Why try to re-invent the wheel? Start with a better chassis and you will go further on every dollar spent. Basic mathematics.

Jordan

haniforama

12-01-2003, 12:43 PM

I vote Bimmer 'cause they're *Bling* :D

ScotcH

12-01-2003, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by haniforama
I vote Bimmer 'cause they're *Bling* :D

Hey, if I was after the *bling*, I'd stick with the legend, and spend 20k making it an AWD :)

Chris91GT

12-01-2003, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by GR8 Ride
Chris,

If you have time to look at the speedometer half-way around Turn 2, you're not going fast enough!

Pat

That's what the videocam and magnification of the tach are for! :D

Dave Barker

12-01-2003, 08:42 PM

Originally posted by LateApex

BMW's have been designed with the driver as a consideration rather than an afterthought. The chassis is communicative and balanced, the steering has feel, and you can actually sense something about the attitude of the car through the seat of the pants at speed....imagine that?

Fords have steering that is like a mop in a bucket. The Quadra-Bind Son-Of-Fairmont rear end feels as though it's trying to bite you most of the time. Follow a Fox-bodied Stang through T2 at Mosport and watch the body shift to the right about 2 inches before it finally settles against the bushings, preparing to rebound if you blink behind the wheel. Overall you feel as though the car is taking you for a ride, and you may or may not be able to add inputs that can save your bacon if need be. Too much work for the laptimes generated.

....if you choose to drive a car that is like clinging to the back of a mechanical bull, that is your choice. What I am trying to point out is that you can relax, calm down and focus on driving in a well-designed chassis.

Jordan , You and Pat should get your stories together. You claim that the Mustang is something like a mechanical bull and that Arek could "relax, calm down and focus on driving" in a car with a better chassis yet Pat says that there is no more finesse needed in hanging on to the " mechanical bull" ( reminds me of a certain joke about the Rodeo F#&% that should NOT be repeated here) and that all cars are equally difficult to drive at the limit requiring the same " finesse". So which is it? Do you mean to say that the Mustang/Camaro is only bad at 9.5 tenths but all cars are hard to control at 10/10ths? BTW I think mechanical bull is an appropriate analogy.

So that's it Arek , Mechanical bull vs Thoroughbred. At least we agree on rear wheel drive.

BTW Arek it also depends on how far you want to go in car prep. My "mechanical bull" is my daily driver and obviously not optimised for any race track use while Jordan and Pat are talking much more prepared vehicles and I would agree whole heartedly with them that Pony cars will NEVER handle like their cars but you have to look at the total picture of "bang for the buck". So what is more fun? Its up to you.

( Jordan , Keith sent me the pictures of your new acid? dipped body in white. Now that is serious prep.)

ice/solo racer

12-01-2003, 09:15 PM

I agree with Pat in that any car is a challenge to balance on the ragged edge,and thats why spec series make so much sense to sort out the better drivers.
But when I have a 160 hp crx up against v8's or Adams 300+hp 240 in sgt3 I think I'll have close competition with someone driving something no where the limit in the twists and making up the difference in get up and go.Not saying that there isn't great drivers,so don't put that slant on my comments.
Besides Dave your the one that started the momentum thing!:)

Oh yeah Jason's right-crx's are kinda purdy(hopefully means quick too:( )

GR8 Ride

12-01-2003, 09:39 PM

Dave,

You need to realize that Jordan and I are saying the exact same thing; you just don't want to hear it.

I'm saying that my car is JUST AS MUCH TO HANDLE at the limits of adhesion as ANY mechanical bull, er, Camaro :). Your mechanical bull merely has lower limits of adhesion than my race car does; it doesn't make your car any harder to handle at the limit than mine is. Like I said before, my limits are merely higher than yours....

At the exact same speed, yes, my car is probably easier to handle than yours is. But I'm willing to bet my cornering speeds are significantly higher, and as such, my car is as much of a handful as yours is.

I'm still amazed by people who seem to think my car is so incredibly easy to drive at the limit.... Sure, it's an easy car to drive at 7/10ths. Try driving it at 11/10ths.

Pat

ice/solo racer

12-01-2003, 10:11 PM

Pat if people think that your car is incredibly easy to drive that just means that your doing a hellava job driving it.People that look fast usually aren't and those that look smooth,fluid and in control are faster than they appear.
Just take it as a compliment:D

Dave Barker

12-01-2003, 10:58 PM

Pat the speed at which you can navigate any given corner says nothing about the difficulty involved in negotiating that same corner. It only speaks to the consequences of making mistakes.

Given that you don't have to deal with a bouncing live axle , wheelspin.( not likely with 158 rwhp), poor steering response, chassis flex, poor rear suspension geometry and all the variables that these introduce into the split second decisions that are required to drive quickly and given that Jordan has indicated that Arek (or anyone for that matter) could " relax, calm down and focus" in a car with a better chassis ( I would assume because he did not have to deal with aforementioned variables and could count on a more predictable handling response) I would still maintain that driving a poor handling car is more challenging than driving a good handling car and frankly therein lies the fun. I cannot perceive that when you don't have to deal with these variables that your car is as difficult to drive at the limits (no matter what the speed.)

Frankly shifter karts will outhandle any vehicle in Solo 1 by a landslide but when these vehicles can turn many corners flat out (easily), then in my mind it takes away from the attraction despite their high cornering limits and overall lap times.

ScotcH

12-01-2003, 11:34 PM

Originally posted by Dave Barker

Frankly shifter karts will outhandle any vehicle in Solo 1 by a landslide but when these vehicles can turn many corners flat out (easily), then in my mind it takes away from the attraction despite their high cornering limits and overall lap times.

Interresting slant on the debate here ... it sound like you're saying that it's more fun to drive a less refined car. Like when you hang the ass end out in a croner, or give it a bit of a twich on exit, makes it a bit more fun than just gliding around with ease, even if the gliding is actually faster :)

I used to own an 85 monte carlo V8, and let me tell you, that was fun (even more so in the snow!). However, I think I'm leaning toward the refined this time, simply because I think I'll be able to work on myself more than trying to fight the car. The Legend was anything but refined ... it was a pig, underpowered (for it's size) and a FWD. It was great to learn on, and I really had no choice, but it's just not a track car. Also, when I make my track car purchase, I will be a 2 person family with 4 cars, so streetability will not be an issue (that's what the Legend and Jetta 1.8T are for!).

Basically, the plan is this: buy car, 17" rims, brake pads, and maybe suspension (if I have enough cash left). Likely that will be it for the first year, since I can't affort a tow vehicle. Also, depending on PIPs, I might rip out some weight, like interior and seating. Selling these should help costs a bit.

Looking in the good ol' trader, there is slim pickings right now ... only about 5 cars, and all of them near TO :( Oh well .. this is all part of the fun, I guess! I think an E36 325 BMW is what my first choice would be, then a 240sx, then an E30 325, then everything else, so keep a lookout for me, will ya?

maxrpm

12-01-2003, 11:43 PM

Dave, if sliding is so much fun and not ultimate lap times in a given car then maybe you should join drift nation!:D

GR8 Ride

12-02-2003, 09:20 AM

Dave,

Again, you just don't get it. With 900 lbs/in springs in the rear of my car, I have to deal with chassis hop just as much as you do with a live axle and 200 lbs/in springs. I can show you points in turn 2 where my car literally feels like it has been picked up, and shifted 5 feet to the outside....

Also, when I'm running on the limit of adhesion, I can easily force my car into a spin by jumping on the throttle; the same thing you can do to your car. It's not like I'm taking turn 2 flat out without braking.....you're wrong if you believe I have that much mechanical grip. I can still spin the car at will if I jump on the throttle, or suddenly lift off.

I'm going to ask a question Dave, and it's going to sound flippant, but it needs to be asked. How many cars have you *really* driven around the race track besides your Camaro? And I don't mean just a few laps; I mean cars you've driven under varying circumstances, on different days, and developed significant experience with.

When you can demonstrate that you've maximized the performance out of more than ONE car on the track, then we'll be in a better place to make comparisons.

Again, I'll take issue with ANYONE that claims that it's easy to drive my car (or ANY *good* handling car) at 11/10ths. I'm sorry, but if you think it's easy to take turn 4 at Mosport flat out (no lift, no brake, no breathing on the throttle....FLAT OUT) with the back end dancing the whole time you're going down the corner, you'd be wrong. I make one mistake at that point, and my car is a write-off. Easy car to drive my ass.

Pat

Chris91GT

12-02-2003, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by jason_alt
Get a Crx...

.. they're mmm mmm good.

Indeed they are... the Mustang relies on a steady diet, with an occasional BMW or Camaro for dessert. ;)

DECH_92

12-02-2003, 10:29 AM

"I'm going to ask a question Dave, and it's going to sound flippant, but it needs to be asked. How many cars have you *really* driven around the race track besides your Camaro? And I don't mean just a few laps; I mean cars you've driven under varying circumstances, on different days, and developed significant experience with."

LOL hey you old fart Dave.
All the years you have been in Solo1 (scared to ask how many) What besides your Toyota, Mustang and Camaro have you drove in?
With all the guys you know in Solo I, I imagine you have been in
a few?

Dave, looks like I will get another chance to beat you when Solo1 goes to Mosport.
This time, another 35 hp and bit of tq. Oh and some real front brakes.
But somehow, you wildman, I am not sure it will happen.

Chris91GT

12-02-2003, 10:32 AM

This thread seems to be getting a little out of control...

I think we can all agree that driving any car at 10/10ths requires enormous skill and the workload is the same... just different in application. That's what driving at the limit is... taking the car to the point where it's tough to control. If it's not, you're not driving hard enough.

The Mustang is very easy to control at Mosport... but then, I'm clearly not at the limit. I've only been there three times and it's plenty intimidating. I've only been on the edge a couple of times in 2 and 4. Mostly when chasing a built-944. I've certainly never flat-footed 4. I've almost gotten to the point where I might just avoid the middle pedal... but flat-out... no way. Not yet!

I need to do a few BMW schools there in the spring... I'd be happy to have you show me the ropes Pat. Then I can show you some taillights. :p

I also need to learn more about setup... I haven't touched the alignment since Kirk had it. It's still setup for streetability (sort of).

GR8 Ride

12-02-2003, 11:43 AM

Oh relax Chris, nothing is getting out of control. I don't know Dave from a hole in the ground, and he doesn't know me. We're merely debating the logic behind what defines a car being "difficult to drive". I have no idea what cars Dave has driven, or even if he's ever driven a fully race prepped car. It's a completely different animal from driving a street car....(and WAY more fun).

And assuming that both cars are at the absolute limits of mechanical grip, I'm saying there is effectively no difference from a fully race prepped BMW vs driving a relatively street stock Camaro. Just the limits on the race prepped car are significantly higher; at those higher limits, it takes as much skill and smoothness to manage that grip.

Oh, and as far as seeing your taillights, yeah, no problem. I'll be expecting the point-by nice and early each time I come around to lap you. ;)

How many laps can you get in before you run out of fuel? I'm just calculating how many times I can lap you in any particular session... :)

Pat

Chris91GT

12-02-2003, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by GR8 Ride

Oh, and as far as seeing your taillights, yeah, no problem. I'll be expecting the point-by nice and early each time I come around to lap you. ;)

How many laps can you get in before you run out of fuel? I'm just calculating how many times I can lap you in any particular session... :)

Pat

Playing dirty are we? Well, the Stang can run nearly an hour before fuelling... at least at Mosport. Watkins Glen has more/longer straights and probably consumes 3/4 tank in 30 min. A full tank being 50L in this case.

Point-by? Faw... only once. After that I'll be learning from you and expecting a point-by in 2 laps. :D

Dave Barker

12-03-2003, 01:13 AM

Originally posted by GR8 Ride
Dave,

I'm going to ask a question Dave, and it's going to sound flippant, but it needs to be asked. How many cars have you *really* driven around the race track besides your Camaro? And I don't mean just a few laps; I mean cars you've driven under varying circumstances, on different days, and developed significant experience with.

When you can demonstrate that you've maximized the performance out of more than ONE car on the track, then we'll be in a better place to make comparisons.

Again, I'll take issue with ANYONE that claims that it's easy to drive my car (or ANY *good* handling car) at 11/10ths. I'm sorry, but if you think it's easy to take turn 4 at Mosport flat out (no lift, no brake, no breathing on the throttle....FLAT OUT) with the back end dancing the whole time you're going down the corner, you'd be wrong. I make one mistake at that point, and my car is a write-off. Easy car to drive my ass.

Pat

Well Pat , here goes. Indeed the only cars that I have LOTS of experience at different tracks in different conditions are the Camaro , Mustang and Supra. My other experience on race tracks at some quite reasonable speeds include E 30 BMW, 911 RS, Integra type R, Acura NSX, 1st gen Miata and the BRA FF2000s. I have also had occasion to be a passenger with C Sorensen at Mosport. I'm not sure of his car's prep compared to yours. It is important to note Pat that these cars have been prepped for Solo 1 use ( not with all the $ spent in race prep) which seems appropriate enough for a Solo 1 forum. 8 of the top 10 car this past season in Solo 1 were street driven.

The worst car of the bunch was definitely the Mustang, and the Miata and Supra were both pussy cats, i.e. totally forgiving and easy to drive. The supra was SOOO much easier at the limit than either of the live axle cars that I am suprised that your car with its good chassis and IRS is so twitchy. I guess your level of prep has made it so. I did not like the NSX as it seemed to run into too much power-on oversteer, at least more than I liked but possibly with more time I would learn to control it. The school FF2000s were so easy to drive that I am sure they were set up with much more understeer than is fast but that was the only "true race car"

Pat it is possible that your car is now so twitchy that indeed it is hard to control at whatever 10ths you propose ( really 11/10ths???) even though you don't have to deal with the vagaries of live axle rear suspensions. OTOH if you indeed jump on or off the throttle as suggested, you deserve to spin as would most cars including my old tub-o-lard fat pussycat easy handling Supra.

As I said earlier it is an interesting observation that as a crappy handling car is improved it becomes easier to drive while as a good handling car is maximised ( such as yours is) it may become more difficult. We may be comparing apples and turnips. If your race car prep has transformed a good handling street car into a nervous handful then I can't really comment but for cars that are street driven ( as MOST solo 1 cars are) and prepped to Solo 1 type standards i.e shocks/springs /alignment and possibly bars, then I would still maintain that poor handling cars are more difficult to drive ( and more of a challenge) no matter what the speed.

Pony cars are generally not as fast on race tracks as their wgt/hp figures would suggest. Also on lapping weekends, schools etc. the most likely guys to spin are the Pony car drivers. Is this because they are all stupid or are the cars just that much more difficult to drive? ( I obviously think the latter but Pat may beg to differ)

BTW Sam and Arek, any power slides I do are entirely unintentional. My last Solo 1 wkend on burnt out Hoosiers proved to be a lesson in humility and frustration but I gather I garnered a round of applause in the tower after catching a big slide in Turn 1 at Fabi. See even a Camaro can be brought under control.

Pat , I am sorry to see that circumstances require you to sell your car. I must admit though that the 1;37 s should be good enough to sell it without trying to convince people that it is as evil handling as live axle cars at the limit.

GR8 Ride

12-03-2003, 08:53 AM

Dave,

Yes, thanks for your concerns, and the car has been sold, probably largely due to it's reputation for turning 1:37s. I guess we'll now see if it's the driver, or the car :)

Having driven several FF2000's in my time as well, I tend to equate those with driving my BMW. Both are fully race prepared (or just flat out race cars, in the case of the open wheelers...), and while quite neutral at lower speeds, both can be prone to bite you at 10/10ths (or 11/10ths, in the case of my car; rather reluctant to drive someone else's FF2000 at 11/10ths). I've looped an FF2000 once or twice in my life, simply by making a mental mistake along the way....

As to Christian's car vs my own, the level of prep is quite a bit different. His car was built to BMWCCA J-Stock rules, so much of the street driveability was maintained (including restrictions on camber settings, as an example). Being a trailer queen, mine was built to maximize grip above all else, and to make it as quick as humanly possible, given the limited HP I had. It wasn't twitchy, but it was absolutely tuned to be right on the edge. So some of the neutrality / safety factor was deliberatly engineered out, in order to make it faster. It's still an easy car to drive at 7/10ths; it's not easy to drive at 11/10ths.

It's not a nervous handful (the 240Z was at times...), but the margin for error that exists in a car like Christian's, or a relatively stock BMW for that matter, is far greater than my own car.

As to driving at 11/10ths, yeah, that's the best way to describe how I drove it. Not a harsh, beaten upon 11/10ths, but merely squeezing every last bit of speed out of the car that I could. Things like running flat out from before the apex of Turn 3 to the braking zone going up the hill at Turn 5....again, no lift, no breathing on the throttle, no left foot braking etc. First time I ever did that I had to question my sanity at the top of turn 4... :)

Then in regionals you do really silly things like passing people on the outside of turn 2 at the start of a race (which surprises most people....), or passing people down the outside of turn 4, again, flat out.

I guess I'm just lucky that the only thing I apparently damaged this year were brain cells....

Pat

DECH_92

12-03-2003, 09:04 AM

Hi Pat
How long did you drive at Mosport before you started to go full out on turn 2 and from 3 to 5 ?
We don`t want the Solo guys thinking that this is the normal way around the track without a lot of experience.

GR8 Ride

12-03-2003, 11:04 AM

Well, I've been driving Mosport for the past 5 years (of the 6 I've lived in the area), and probably have logged about 12-15 days per year (far more this past year) on the big track.

Really, taking those corners like I do now is something that's only happened in the past year or two, at most. I've still been working on taking turn 1 flat out as well.... (that wall comes up awfully fast at the exit of turn 1!). Haven't found the cojones to make Turn 1 a committment corner yet.... :)

Pat

Chris91GT

12-03-2003, 03:08 PM

LOL! I love the discussion of 11/10s. Technically at 11/10s you're staring at the wall... or you've hit it, or perhaps staring at the grass beneath your windshield.

10/10s is as quick as she gets. Anything more and you've run out of pavement... and thus actually knocking tenths off your pace...

:p

Pat, what did you change between this year and last to go from 1:40-1:41s to 1:37s consistently?

J.C.

12-03-2003, 05:00 PM

Sounds like he is just more agressive at getting on the power earlier and staying on it.

I do agree with you Chris 10/10ths issue. If someone goes to 11/10ths that then would mean there 10/10ths is really only 9/10ths.

Eitherway 1:37 at Mosport is a great time for that hp.

GR8 Ride

12-03-2003, 08:33 PM

Well, I'll disagree on the 10/10ths vs 11/10ths thing. Driving at 11/10ths means you're effectively exceeding the mechanical grip of the car.... :) Just because you've exceeded the grip, doesn't mean you're staring at the wall. That's up to the driver... ;)

Basically, driving at the point at which you're balancing a car beyond a *normal* limit. It's about feeling the car, and all the while trusting that your own skills will allow you to maintain control in a situation that should be out of control. It applies the same way to people who drive well in the rain....guys who drive well at 11/10ths in the dry tend to be drivers who win races in the rain.

Take a look at some pro drivers; Bill Auberlen for example. Here's a guy who takes the exact same car as someone else, and extracts even more performance from it, despite being identically setup, and often having greater reward weight than someone else.

Don't look at it from a mathematical perspective....thinking about it too much distracts from the actual driving. Driving at 11/10ths is ALL about feel, and a driver pushes these limits knowing full well that he/she may be exceeding the 'theoretical' limits of what the car can do.

Whether you believe it or not, one cannot always look at racing cars from a purely mathematical perspective. Hence a term like 11/10ths....

Pat

Dave Barker

12-03-2003, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by GR8 Ride
Dave,

Things like running flat out from before the apex of Turn 3 to the braking zone going up the hill at Turn 5....again, no lift, no breathing on the throttle, no left foot braking etc. First time I ever did that I had to question my sanity at the top of turn 4... :)

Then in regionals you do really silly things like passing people down the outside of turn 4, again, flat out.

I guess I'm just lucky that the only thing I apparently damaged this year were brain cells....

Pat

Pat , are you saying that you can pass someone on the outside of Turn 4 after being foot to the floor from before the apex of turn 3 with no braking at all until the entrance to 5?

Curious Dave

GR8 Ride

12-03-2003, 09:57 PM

I won't do it when passing someone for position, but I've done it when passing back-markers in the Touring car races. Generally he who's on the outside of Turn 4 loses, so it's one spot on Mosport I'm not entirely comfortable being side by side with someone. I really don't have a problem going side by side anywhere else on the track.

That being said, I've passed plenty of people for position going flat out THROUGH turn 4, and out-braking them going into turn 5. But that's not a situation where two cars were side by side right from the top of turn 4; I merely caught them half-way down turn 4.

Turn 2, on the other hand, I have as much grip on the outside as I do on the inside. I've passed several people for position during Touring car races on the outside of Turn 2. That usually gets their attention :)

Pat

Chris91GT

12-05-2003, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by GR8 Ride
Well, I'll disagree on the 10/10ths vs 11/10ths thing. Driving at 11/10ths means you're effectively exceeding the mechanical grip of the car.... :) Just because you've exceeded the grip, doesn't mean you're staring at the wall. That's up to the driver... ;)

Whether you believe it or not, one cannot always look at racing cars from a purely mathematical perspective. Hence a term like 11/10ths....

Pat

And hence, in doing the best you and the car can do means you're doing everything possible, the sum is complete, 100%, aka 10/10s. :D

LOL! Just being an ass... have no fear... when I pass you on approach to do I won't be working out weight transfer rates, slip angles, and [lack of] downforce. I'll just be passing you. :p

GR8 Ride

12-05-2003, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by Chris91GT
LOL! Just being an ass... have no fear... when I pass you on approach to do I won't be working out weight transfer rates, slip angles, and [lack of] downforce. I'll just be passing you. :p

We generally frown on people passing during the cool-down lap Chris. But you're welcome to keep dreaming.... :D

Pat

John P

12-05-2003, 11:46 AM

Chris, I think you have permanently passed Pat since he sold his car. This thread is just weak smack talk now, since Pat can't prove anything anymore.

Originally this thread by Arek asked for suggestions for a new car for next year.

So Arek, have you bought Pat's BMW ????

ScotcH

12-05-2003, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by John P
Chris, I think you have permanently passed Pat since he sold his car. This thread is just weak smack talk now, since Pat can't prove anything anymore.

Originally this thread by Arek asked for suggestions for a new car for next year.

So Arek, have you bought Pat's BMW ????

If I sold my wife to slavery, I would have ... she didn't want to go though :)

I think I've pretty much made up my mind and will be looking for an E36 325is for under 8k .... My budget is about 10k max, and I need a bit of play money for rims and and such. I wish I could bring myself to sell the Legend, but that just won't happen.

Thanks to all for the input and help. now I'll need your help next when it comes time to learn how to drive the beast ;)

John P

12-05-2003, 02:07 PM

Arek, as in the last two years, I will gladly help you.

John P

12-05-2003, 02:09 PM

Arek, as in the last two years, I will gladly help you. I am sure you will learn rear drive very quickly, and be a class winner next year provided you maximize your PIP.

What class are you planning to run?

GR8 Ride

12-05-2003, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by John P
Chris, I think you have permanently passed Pat since he sold his car. This thread is just weak smack talk now, since Pat can't prove anything anymore.

Originally this thread by Arek asked for suggestions for a new car for next year.

So Arek, have you bought Pat's BMW ????

Actually, that wouldn't be true. Yes, I have sold the car, to another gentleman in the Club, but part of his desire is to have me co-drive the car this year with him; partly because he's just a great guy, and partly because he wants to learn how to drive my car better. And in the end, nobody knows my car better than me....

So if Chris actually steps up to the plate and attends a BMW school or two this year, he can see what *real* speed is like... Just don't stain the seats when we go down turn 2 or turn 4.

:D

Pat

Dave

12-05-2003, 11:44 PM

man, there's almost as much testosterone and smacktalk in this forum as the Solo 2 forum! Those guys really like to bicker :cool:

Silver Fox

12-06-2003, 09:40 AM

Hey ! How about an MK1 MR2 ?? They are light, fast, handle great and have lots of upgrade parts .

You'll see mine this coming season.

Silver Fox

Chris91GT

12-06-2003, 09:11 PM

Originally posted by GR8 Ride
Actually, that wouldn't be true. Yes, I have sold the car, to another gentleman in the Club, but part of his desire is to have me co-drive the car this year with him; partly because he's just a great guy, and partly because he wants to learn how to drive my car better. And in the end, nobody knows my car better than me....

So if Chris actually steps up to the plate and attends a BMW school or two this year, he can see what *real* speed is like... Just don't stain the seats when we go down turn 2 or turn 4.

:D

Pat

That's ok Pat, just don't be too surprised if I lean over between 2 and 3 and ask "are we up to speed yet?!". LOL!

Especially since you're only 10k faster through 2... and I was running on antique BFG R1s (original compound) that came from somebody, who got them from a guy, who originally got them as OE on his SLP Camaro (LT1... can't remember what year). Damn, are they heavy too!

:p

GR8 Ride

12-06-2003, 11:49 PM

Chris,

Well, besides the fact that I think there is far larger than a 10 km/h difference between our cars at the mid-point in turn 2, the REAL thing you're afraid of is that I'll build up my Mustang, and really show you how it's done! :D

As I've said before, I have ZERO idea how fast I'm taking turn 2, since I don't have time to look. A couple of people in fully race prepped Mustangs have gone out with me this year (including the last BMW school in October), and the first comment out of each of them was "Wow, I've never gone over the crest of turn 2 that fast before!"

Remember, I'm putting up laptimes 2-3 seconds a lap quicker than yours, yet I'd imagine you're covering that backstraight one hell of a lot quicker than I am (seems to take forever in my car...). All that speed's gotta be coming from somewhere....

Oh, and these are transponder posted laptimes, not "some guy in the passenger seat with a stopwatch, who missed the mark by 250 ft because he forgot where he hit the button last lap" laptimes... <VBG> :D

Pat

PS. Hey, if it wasn't for me Chris, who'd keep you honest?

ADAM

12-08-2003, 03:16 PM

ohh this has gotten juicy

re: bmw vs 240sx

i owned a bmw 320 it was nice handled VERY neutral....had it for 3 years.....replacement parts were a FRIGGEN nightmare...go and buy a waterpump..or alternator..or exhaust....ha ha haha.....RIP OFFFFF

anyway....i would agree with PAT that out of the box the BMW is a better machine.....but we are not talking about out of the box...we are talking about what happens when we modify the cars.....i can safely say there are EASILY more aftermarket parts for the 240sx than the BMW's...and replacement parts for the nissan are at least in line with reality...

as far as handling...i would say the 240sx would eventually have the edge...why....it weighs less.....

as far as power.....i would call it even......at the extreme edge both platforms can produce upwards of 400rwhp+

now..here comes the kicker......
price...240sx has this one easy...

GR8 Ride

12-08-2003, 04:29 PM

Hmmm...sounds like a challenge is in order...around the *Big Track* at Mosport.

Adam's 400+ rwhp 240SX (combined with less weight) vs my heavy, underpowered E36 325is, with a confirmed 158 rwhp.

I'd be willing to take this challenge.... :D

Sounds like a bet may be in order on this one....

Pat

J.C.

12-08-2003, 05:29 PM

You could both get Chris to follow you around and film the test comparison, though I don't know if he likes driving that slow ;)

ROFLMAO I had to :D

Chris91GT

12-08-2003, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by J.C.
You could both get Chris to follow you around and film the test comparison, though I don't know if he likes driving that slow ;)

ROFLMAO I had to :D

LOL!!!

Pat.. keeping me honest.. yes, sounds like a plan. And in the name of honesty... it was only 1-2 seconds. :D On plastic tires. And no brakes... and no experience.

Oopss.... keep it honest... right. hehe

Chris P

12-08-2003, 06:04 PM

Sure Pat, ur BMW vs. Adam's 240 around mosport. He'll need a champion to drive the car though.

I think John P would be a good candidate, he only has a few thousand laps there........ It would be good to see a BMW get its ass handed to it. Might ever reduce some of the sillyness on this board...... ;)

GR8 Ride

12-08-2003, 06:16 PM

So Adam gets to hire a hot shoe eh....hmmm, wonder what Bill Auberlen is doing that weekend.....

Fair's fair. If somebody wants to hire a hot driver, then let them. But that applies to both people. I'm pretty sure Bill Auberlen could shave a couple of seconds off my time.... :D

Pat

GR8 Ride

12-08-2003, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by Chris91GT
LOL!!!

Pat.. keeping me honest.. yes, sounds like a plan. And in the name of honesty... it was only 1-2 seconds. :D On plastic tires. And no brakes... and no experience.

Oopss.... keep it honest... right. hehe

And no accurate timing mechanism....how again did you come up with your laptimes? Lotto 649 random laptime generator? :D

We haven't even run yet, and you're ALREADY making excuses. What's up with that? :D

And my times were done IN TRAFFIC, competing with 45+ other cars on the track, not just a single hot lap with nobody else around. Hmm...wonder how quick I could have pushed it without anybody around to hold me up in places...??? :D

Seriously, my times are readily available on www.mylaps.com.... and both Nick and Christian will verify the RWHP my car put out, plus the track conditions when those times were set.

I know nobody here wants to believe that some of us *BMW drivers* actually know how to drive because we don't run Solo 1, but I think we can readily demonstrate that we actually know what we're doing.

Pat

PS. Come to one of the BMW schools in 2004...we can swap time in the passenger seats of the respective cars then, and you might just become a believer after all.... ;)

Bubblecar

12-08-2003, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by GR8 Ride
So Adam gets to hire a hot shoe eh....hmmm, wonder what Bill Auberlen is doing that weekend.....

Cut the crap !

It wouldn't take a "hot shoe" - just someone with reasonable experience on Mosport. How many days have you had there Pat? Quit picking on novices.

Tell you what - I'll take you up on that challenge (if Adam would let ME drive). And yes - I'll match any bet that I could drive Adam's car, to better than 1.38's.

Two years ago I turned 1:38's in my AWD Talon with only 375 to the wheels - and with a loose control arm - couldn't keep the damn thing straight!

Pat - your car is really hooked up - and you're a VERY accomplished driver but . . .

Nick (How's that for Smack Talkin!):D

Dave Barker

12-08-2003, 08:33 PM

Frankly I would pick Adam's car if it could stay together for more than 1 or 2 laps, but not Adam. After all Pat is the only driver I've heard of who can drive at 11/10ths !!

maxrpm

12-08-2003, 09:04 PM

If Adams car is a better handling car then Pat's BMW then let's even up the HP, Pat how much HP is Peter's older BMW running?

I believe he's runs 1:30s.

http://www.thinkingdigital.com/maxrpm/media/2003/bmwcc090703/DSCN5984.JPG

http://www.turbo240sx.ca/240sxracepic.jpg

I'll put my money on the BMW, and more with Peter driving.

GR8 Ride

12-08-2003, 09:33 PM

Frank's car is putting out 435 to the crank...running on 116 leaded. And he hit 1:32s with about 321 HP to the crank...figure he can crack into the 1:29s with the new motor.

As to you Nick, well hey, considering that Hutchison STARTED all the 'smack talk' several months ago, SOMEBODY has to keep up the tradition! Between him and those stick axle guys (nudge, nudge Atkins... :D), somebody has to defend Germany's honour. Until the ice racing season starts, I have to get my racing *fix* somehow; may as well be using the bench!

Besides, I'll take you up on that challenge. Minimum 20 laps...., no mandatory pit stop :D

And actually, I just figured out about how many laps I have around Mosport....figure I'm just under 10,000 in the past 4 years. Damn...need to find another hobby.

The thing about your Talon Nick, is that it would only turn 3 laps at 1:38s prior to having to stop by the side of the track and take a relaxing pee (coolant, that is).

Oh, and make sure you're running straight water; can't have you force-fed guys dumping the slippery green stuff on the line in turn 2!

Oh and Dave, for as many years as you've been hanging around the track, I honesty can't believe I'm the first guy you've ever heard of driving at 11/10ths. I KNOW you've been to a Solo 1 event with *Wild Man* Sorensen behind the wheel.... let's talk 12/10ths for that nut.... :)

Pat

Dave Barker

12-08-2003, 10:34 PM

Pat , I'm old enough to have seen Jackie Stewart race at Mosport. He used to say that he would qualify at 9.5/10ths and race at 9/10ths. I do believe his competition was pretty stiff but it seemed to work for him. Thats what I would use as a yardstick.

northern911

12-09-2003, 12:27 AM

Check this, and prepare to eat CROW!!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6256&item=2432601336

I couldn't take all you guys pretending like you know it all, so I went out and bought me a purpose built race car, and I'm gonna run, like, sub 1 minutes at Mosport, according to my calculations.

Heck, you pussies talk about lines!!! Dudes, I can cut through from turn 2, go straight to halfway up Andretti, and shave lots of time off. Then, I'll jump your cars, Evil Kneivel style, and pop wheelies in circles around you.

I can actually push it to, no kidding, 20/10ths, while I light a smoke and drift through campgrounds in the infield waiting for you to catch up...... It's the Banzai tail that balances my type R so I can't take all the credit.... And I'd still be able to pass you ALL on the OUTSIDE of turn 3, 29 cars wide, but so far outside, I'll use Hwy 115 to do it!!!

We'll just see who's the bling bling king of the track.;)

J.C.

12-09-2003, 12:53 AM

Originally posted by northern911
Check this, and prepare to eat CROW!!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6256&item=2432601336

What really scares me is the fact that there is already a $ 10,600.00 us bid on that car ! :eek:

GR8 Ride

12-09-2003, 07:50 AM

Originally posted by Dave Barker
Pat , I'm old enough to have seen Jackie Stewart race at Mosport. He used to say that he would qualify at 9.5/10ths and race at 9/10ths. I do believe his competition was pretty stiff but it seemed to work for him. Thats what I would use as a yardstick.

Yeah, but if I only drove at 9/10ths, I'd get stuck behind Atkins.... so I drive at 11/10ths!

I guess you just don't believe in giving it "110%" :D

Pat

DECH_92

12-09-2003, 08:09 AM

Chris and I have pretty well the same cars (same spring, shocks, watt`s link) we both did around
1.39, 1.40 with less then 2 lapping days at the track.
Not bad for cars that everyone seems to agree that there the worst car available for track use.
The previous owner did 1.38 in mine and I bet Peter H did even better times. (Will call him and check what his best time was)
Pat did 1.37.5 with half the horsepower,which proves the good suspension design of the BMW.
He is definitely taking the corners a lot faster then us to get better laps times.
Stang 3200lbs 300 hp
BMW 3000lbs 158hp
240Z 2600lbs 300 + hp
I bet Adam pulls some 1.37 and maybe 1.36 at the Solo weekend after a day of lapping, easy.

Mind you ,it depends if he as raisins or plums in his pants.

ADAM

12-09-2003, 08:32 AM

ohhh this is juicy smack talk......

for one.....NO WAY a heavier 158hp car is gonna beat a lighter 300hp car with even more torque.....the 240sx i 100% gaurentee would WALK on that BMW hands down....

thats a fact.....

i don't think there is that much difference in the handling ability of the 2 cars...both have very simular suspension designs....both using the same type rubber.....

is there some handling MAGIC that the bmw has that we are not aware of?

a car with double the HP..and more than double the torque....would EAT a lower power car on a power track... IMO

as for starting up rules and stuff for the times...this year we are having an event at mosport big track..so i will see what my times are..i will only have 1 lapping day the day before to practice....and then the timed comptitition the next day...

so lets just wait and see until that day....

and any smack talkers can come out to that SOLO 1 event and use those times as gospel....

that will put an end to this debate ...

John P

12-09-2003, 12:05 PM

With a little practice by Adam and Chris, (and some race rubber to even out the playing field), both the 240 and the Mustang will put the BMW (158rwhp??) into the weeds. Adam should be in the low 30's and Chris in the mid 30's.

Nick is an excellent driver and should easily beat Pat in Pat's BMW after a day of practice.

Pat, even though you have taken over this thread with your boosting, you are not F1 material. Calm down.

GR8 Ride

12-09-2003, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by John P
With a little practice by Adam and Chris, (and some race rubber to even out the playing field), both the 240 and the Mustang will put the BMW (158rwhp??) into the weeds. Adam should be in the low 30's and Chris in the mid 30's.

Nick is an excellent driver and should easily beat Pat in Pat's BMW after a day of practice.

Pat, even though you have taken over this thread with your boosting, you are not F1 material. Calm down.

You know John, I was just having fun in this thread, as most of what I've been saying has been tongue in cheek. Never once did I claim to be F1 material (too old, too fat).

However, I don't need you to stick your nose in and tell me to calm down. Piss off!

I'm the one leaving the smiley faces in all my posts, which is generally a pretty good indication of intent being "tongue in cheek". If you can't read between the lines, then find another hobby.

This has been merely a fun thread of smack talk between a bunch of guys....winter bench racing in a virtual world, if you will.

Let's look at the facts now, and skip the endless Solo1 rhetoric, if we can.

Jordan's car ran 1:38s on Hoosiers, with 40+ more HP than Chris' car, and better suspension add-ons. Last time anyone independent timed Chris at Mosport, he was in the 1:40's (Mustang day 2002). Independent timing is the ONLY one that counts, so taking times from the passenger while in the car doesn't count for anything. Get a transponder.

With some time, Chris could easily get into the high 1:38/1:39 range around Mosport, on Hoosiers, assuming the car is mechanically the same as it was in 2002. If he's upgraded anything, then he might make it into the mid 1:35 range, depending upon what he's done.

As to Adam's car, WAY too many variables to claim 1:30 FLAT times around Mosport, regardless of who's driving. Merely having a multi-link independent rear suspension and MacPherson struts up front means precious little by itself. You need to consider camber curves, caster, spring rates, shock valving, toe changes (due to using rubber bushings vs spherical bearings), cage design, chassis flex etc. Cripes! There is SO MUCH MORE to properly preparing a race car than merely bolting on a set of TEIN coilovers and suddenly it's capable of low 1:30s.

I could change JUST the shock valving in my car, and potentially either gain or lose 2 seconds a lap on shock valving alone. I can lose a second a lap by screwing with tire pressures...

As to Nick turning faster laps than me in my own car....I think you'd have a tough time getting Nick to even suggest that one. In fact, if you asked him (and I'm sure he'll see this post eventually), he'd probably deny that he could turn 1:37s in my car. I know Sorensen has.

What the HELL is it about you that makes you think that nobody outside of Solo1 (especially me, for some reason) knows how to drive? Just because I chose to spend my money (and weekends) regional racing instead of running Solo1, suddenly I'm just some "assclown" who doesn't know how to drive, and that virtually ANY idiot off the street could jump in and automatically be 2 seconds a lap faster than me. Please.

Pat Buthmann, "who because he never ran Solo1, doesn't really know how to drive".

PS. Ok, NOW somebody can tell me to calm down....because now I'm pissed off!

Dave

12-09-2003, 01:53 PM

Pat, calm down :) LOL...

Does this thread make Baby Krispy cry yet? :p Lets all get along...

ADAM

12-09-2003, 02:36 PM

i wanna see baby krispy cry.....

lets see those tears.......cry crispy cry

:)

all i know is....on the straights...the 240sx would walk away from the bimmer like it is standing still...so UNLESS it can outhandle the 240sx so drastically in the corners...the 240sx is gonna be faster..which i don't think is the case..

as far as suspension setup......

tein ra's 10k/8k
suspension tech sway bars
poly bushings
tein camber plates
engals rear camber adjusters..
front and rear strut cars
4 point roll bar
245/45/16 toyo ra1's
-3.5deg camber front
-2.5deg camber rear

car is approx 2600lbs wet with driver

the car is very neutral in the corners with slight understeer....that can be easily placed into oversteer with throttle modulation...brakes very well and can be breaked very deep into corners without upsetting the car..it turns in very quick...the only real issue is getting the power to the ground in the first 3 gears since the tires spin very easily..

it currently has a power to weight of
8.66lbs/hp
(at medium 15psi boost setting 300rwhp...though it has way more torque than that)

whats that bimmer weigh in at? 3100lbs with 158rwhp?

thats a whopping 19.62lbs per hp...

tell me how a 3100lb 158rwhp car...is gonna beat a 2600lb 300rwhp car?

it just does not make sense?

or am i missing something?

Chris P

12-09-2003, 02:39 PM

I was crying a long time ago………

Pat.....you gotta chill a bit. This has to be the 3rd or 4th thread that I’ve seen you elevate to the next level for no reason.

Just out of curiosity, why are you posting on this board? You obviously don't appreciate our sport and continue to put it down.
John P has raced FF1600 across eastern Canada for 11 years and has a great appreciation for the level of driver talent available at a variety of motorsport levels. I believe his direction is that you continue to put SOLO 1 drivers into a secondary group not up to the same standards as a wheel to wheel racer or even a BMW school driver. This argument is so obtuse; I can’t even comprehend why it is being discussed. Great drivers are everywhere.
PS, john was smack talking......not trying to get you pissed off.

With that said, I hope you continue to add valued and educated comments to this message board.

Don't worry, in a few years we'll meet wheel to wheel..... ;)

Arg........i have a exam to write. Sorry, 60% exams get to me.......

ADAM

12-09-2003, 03:03 PM

hmm what can i claim :)

i lay claim to vast quantities of exhaust soot....

i lay claim to heated metal, and detroyed nuts and bolts...

i lay claim to very high EGT's

i lay claim to warped heads and blown gaskets galore....

i lay claim to many heaps of melting plastic....

:)

Chris P

12-09-2003, 03:09 PM

GR8 Ride

12-09-2003, 03:13 PM

Adam,

All you've done however, is list the fact that you have camber plates, coilovers etc.

What's the valving on those shocks? Any idea what the initial damping is? Any idea on mid-speed damping? Rebound? All these things matter when it comes to finding speed in a car...

Initial shock damping is actually a big part of what determines a car's ability to turn-in, and take a *set*. So despite the theory that a shock's only function is to control spring motion, in fact, in a race car, the bounce stiffness is a big part of how well a car turns in. Chevy just went through this for the 2004 Z06, and found time by changing mid-range shock valving alone (damn, why can't I get a job as test driver for Chevy???).

As to settings, for a car with a MacPherson strut up front, 3.5 degrees of neg camber seems to be an awful lot. As your car rolls (body roll, & weight transfer, not you flipping it onto it's lid ;) ), you're probably actually gaining more neg camber in a corner. You sure you really need that much? 2.8-3.0 degrees might be far better (sometimes one needs to sacrifice tire life for speed...) You could actually be costing yourself front grip mid-corner.

2.5 degrees for a multi-link in the rear sounds about right though.

You're still focused on power to weight ratios, which, while certainly a factor, are not the only factor in determining a car's speed. No doubt you'd walk away from me in a straight line (no dispute there...), but cornering ability remains to be seen.

I'm not sure what the 10K / 8K springs translate too; I've been working in lbs/in. Any translation there? Linear, or progressive?

Oh, and my car is 2900 lbs wet, with driver, not 3100. Pratte would be REALLY impressed if my car was 3100 lbs... :D

Also, peak HP and peak torque numbers mean little by themselves, except on the dyno. How's the area under the curve (ie, usable power)? How is the car geared (tranny ratios, final drive etc)? What's redline on that thing now? Oh, and you should also think about some more rubber in the back, if you're having that much trouble putting down power in the first 3 gears. Either that, or develop a lighter foot! :D

I'm not asking any of this because I'm trying to point out ways in which my car is better than yours (it's not), but rather just pointing out that a setup which is suitable for one track is not necessarily a suitable setup for another track. A classic example of that is my car; it sucks at SMP, but is tuned to excel at Mosport. It's too heavy and too long of a wheelbase to be competitive on either Nelson or FABI, but at Mosport where I can take serious advantage of mechanical grip, I do extremely well. I'm merely offering some suggestions because I've logged a TON of laps around Mosport, so I basically know it fairly well. If our cars are relatively similar in terms of suspension design / layout, then a bunch of what I've learned can be applied to your car as well.

I've set my car up to be as loose and fast as possible; ultra stiff springs, tightly valved shocks (particularly on intial turn-in), big sway bars (particularly the rear) set for maximum oversteer. I then adjust my pressures to keep the balance in place. Also, gearing is specific for Mosport as well....shorter than the 3.15 final drive it came with.

I'm also running a 235/40/17, shorter tire, stiffer sidewall, which again, translates to a slightly quicker turn-in than the 245/45/16 (which I've run before).

On a set of Pirelli slicks, I think I could shave the times down to low 1:36s, and possibly even crack the 1:35.999 barrier (assuming it's not raining!). Again, a guy needs a clear track to get a good run at it as well...

And that which has been pointed out several times before (not by me, but other people), is that Mosport is a track which demands respect. Having driven it merely once or twice does not really teach you how badly this track can bite you. A mental mistake that results in an *off* at SMP or Cayuga can often result in a flatbed home at Mosport.

I KNOW John P knows this, as do both Dave's, Nick, Christian et al. I'd highly suggest not jumping into Mosport and trying to set FTD on your first weekend there.

As Ron Fellows says, if you can drive Mosport well, you can drive any track in North America well.

I know it doesn't seem to make sense that a heavier car with less HP can lap quicker than a lighter one with significantly more, but sometimes, that's just the way it is. Without having your car on a hoist, it's hard to take an engineering look at the suspension and figure just what processes may be going on; such as corner entry (does the toe change?), mid corner, etc.

None of this stuff is simple....it's taken me 4 years to get my car to where it's at now, and for me to be able to drive the car at the limits of it's grip.

Pat

GR8 Ride

12-09-2003, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by Chris P
I was crying a long time ago………

Pat.....you gotta chill a bit. This has to be the 3rd or 4th thread that I’ve seen you elevate to the next level for no reason.

Just out of curiosity, why are you posting on this board? You obviously don't appreciate our sport and continue to put it down.
John P has raced FF1600 across eastern Canada for 11 years and has a great appreciation for the level of driver talent available at a variety of motorsport levels. I believe his direction is that you continue to put SOLO 1 drivers into a secondary group not up to the same standards as a wheel to wheel racer or even a BMW school driver. This argument is so obtuse; I can’t even comprehend why it is being discussed. Great drivers are everywhere.
PS, john was smack talking......not trying to get you pissed off.

With that said, I hope you continue to add valued and educated comments to this message board.

Don't worry, in a few years we'll meet wheel to wheel..... ;)

Arg........i have a exam to write. Sorry, 60% exams get to me.......

Chris,

Please point out where I've put down any Solo1 drivers as being "less than equal". If I have (please post a link), then I'll gladly apologize for my ignorance. I will admit to getting into the discussion about what constitutes *racing*, but that's the semantics of a single word in the English language, and nothing to do with the validity of Solo1 as a sport, and especially nothing to say about the drivers involved in the sport. There are some great drivers in Solo1, some so-so drivers, and some who are novices. Guess what? Same thing in regional racing, and for that matter, same thing in the BMW schools. Never did I claim it was any different, nor do I lay claim to being a better driver than anyone here, and certainly not better than the group as a whole.

As to whether or not John was smack-talking, then please inform him that without any indication of intent (ie, Emoticons), it's hard to read his intonation. Remember, online we have no vocal inflections, no big grins, no way to understand if someone is being serious or not.

I hope you do make it out wheel to wheel sometime...it's an experience unlike anything else (and expensive unlike anything else... :( ). For that matter, I might just hit a Solo1 weekend or two this year, particularly if you run at Mosport.

Heck, I'll offer to instruct if you guys run at Mosport...I'll even help Adam find his way around the track. Like I said, this has never been about who's better than whom, but merely a session of "online smack talk", not any different than what happens at a Solo1 weekend, or what happens at a regional race weekend.

I'm merely delivering the smack talk back to Chris and Adam, who (let's be perfect honest here), are the BIGGEST smack talkers of the bunch! :D

The only reason some of us *BMW guys* never made it out to some Solo1 weekends is that we simply didn't have the time; too many regional races, club weekends etc. The spare $$$ and cycles to run a weekend of Solo1 wasn't there.

Who knows? Maybe I'll bring the new Mullet-mobile out for a Solo1 weekend along the way.

Pat

ADAM

12-09-2003, 03:43 PM

he he pat ....we are just torturing you....

re: 240sx

gearing....doesn't matter the car goes to at least 254kph...and can smoke the wheels in the first 3 wheels, 4th is nice..and 5th as well....it has so much torque that the gearing issue is not that relevant....want to short shift....go ahead....want to shift late.....go ahead....

re: area under the curve
the last dyno i did at 13psi.....the car had the following traits...

hp....
3k rpm...120rwhp
4k rpm...240rwhp
5k rpm...288rwhp
6k rpm...250rwhp

torque
3k rpm...200ftlbs
4k rpm...323ftlbs
5k rpm...300ftlbs
6k rpm...220ftlbs

i would say it has a pretty plyable area under the curve...and this is at the low boost setting...

suspension setting......

re: teins....from the factory....no clue..they are linear springs

shifting...i rarely shift over 6000rpm...the shift light is at 6000rpm...

NO way would i go out to mosport and run around it in a crazy fashion.....i am scared of that track 100% and i have never even been on it before....i have a very good sense of fear for that track...and will not push the car in the least ...thats for sure..

ADAM

12-09-2003, 03:45 PM

pat....

whats this mullet car you are talking about? what did you get?

GR8 Ride

12-09-2003, 03:56 PM

Bought a Mustang for use as a daily driver, and might build it into the occasional track toy....and to torture Chris with it a little.

It's pretty much bone stock though, so doubtful it's going to present any challenges by itself on the track.

I'll probably be taking the next couple of years to decide what I might want to do re: building / buying another race car. Part of me is tempted to go the old 240Z route, part might be tempted to look at an old Player's Car (Perry's comes to mind...) etc.

Not sure that I'd build another BMW; not because it's not a great car and not a great platform to build on, it's both of those. But it's something that I've already done, and in order for it to be a real challenge, I'd rather start with something that hasn't been done before (at least not within my circle), and go from there. Kind of a new challenge, new project mentality....

In looking at stuff for the Mustangs, to *really* make one handle well requires a pretty fair chunk of initial investement; a full suspension setup for the unit (reputable companies, that is) is looking to be the better part of $5-6K USD, not including some install.

Might be interested in running the American Iron series in the U.S. at some point in time; competing on different tracks, in some serious HP cars.

Pat

ADAM

12-09-2003, 04:16 PM

to the tune of "bad boys"

smack talk, smack talk, what you gonna do...what yah gonna do when it comes for you ......

the question is...how did all this smack talk get onto the non smack talk thread?

where are the moderators?

do we have moderators?

who are they?

where are they lurking?

do they have a hidden adjenda?

hmmm questions ..questions..

Shaman

12-09-2003, 04:55 PM

The moderators see all... and they don't care as long as you're not posting goat sex (http://goatse.cx/).

Chris P

12-09-2003, 05:02 PM

that is so disgusting.......

put a warning on it atleast. :eek:

Shaman

12-09-2003, 05:12 PM

You clicked on a "goat sex" link? What kind of a pervert are you?

GR8 Ride

12-09-2003, 05:51 PM

Krispy,

If you weren't crying before, the goat sex link would definitely make you cry. I'm guessing you'd never heard of that one before.... :)

Goat sex pretty much ends any thread out there.... nothing like a serious show stopper there.

Pat

Chris91GT

12-09-2003, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by GR8 Ride

Jordan's car ran 1:38s on Hoosiers, with 40+ more HP than Chris' car, and better suspension add-ons. Last time anyone independent timed Chris at Mosport, he was in the 1:40's (Mustang day 2002).

In the interest of being honest in smack talk perfection, the car busted in 2002, but was on track in 2003. :D I had people tell me 1:40, 1:38, 1:36... so yeah, oh so useful timing. ;) 40+ more HP? In 2002 Jordan's car had 100+ more HP... it was pretty much identical to Jordan's/Greg's in 2003.

Independent timing is the ONLY one that counts, so taking times from the passenger while in the car doesn't count for anything. Get a transponder.

Gotta buy a lap timer next season for sure! But I did time from the vid cam afterwards and found some 1:39s in the lesser traffic runs on a couple of the lapping days.

With some time, Chris could easily get into the high 1:38/1:39 range around Mosport, on Hoosiers, assuming the car is mechanically the same as it was in 2002.

Already there with no experience, no brakes, and useless tires... that BMW is gonna get spanked in '04!! :p

PS. Ok, NOW somebody can tell me to calm down....because now I'm pissed off!

Ok... easy there our god of Mosport. Save the expletives until you have to wave me by. A finger out the window will do... I won't have time to see it as you blurr into the background anyway. :D

LOL!