CNAC Rule questions

[Gord]

Can anyone help me clarify a few things I have read in the CNAC rules:

5.3.c.ii -- Steering wheel may be sustituted unless you have an airbag, then you can't

Why is this rule in there? I know lots of people who have removed their airbags, and I really think it's a matter of personal preferance if you want to do it (I think for the street it's a bad idea). Why does the rule not give the option for these people?

5.8.c -- weight reduction prep points

Can someone clarify the "any or all" clause? Does it mean if you do one mod or a bunch of this type that it's a set number of points? Or is it X number of points for each one that you do? I assume it's the first one.

Ex. "Interior trim removal, defined as interior body panels, dashboard, headliner, sun visors, carpet, underpad, sound insulation, and any other interior dress-up or comfort items. -- 2 pts. any or all"

Thanks,

-Gord

[Martini Focus]

Well I believe it's illegal to remove an airbag from a car so equipped. I asked my insurance company last year if I could after my garage who did my safety brought up the question. They didn't believe you were allowed to remove it.

My insurance company said "You can't remove any safety device from the car."

[miataboi]

plus... an airbag wheel weighs a lot more than a non-one!

[J.C.]

In the event of an airbag going off it is not required to have it reinstalled. There are many used cars that are sold without them.

[Greg F]

And is it OK to have this happen without an accident?

[J.C.]

Originally posted by Greg F
And is it OK to have this happen without an accident?

Well if your the original owner its kind of difficult to say you did not know what happened to it. I for one do not know if its worth the trouble to remove it. I have been in a severe incident and my airbags did not go off but it was because I was T-boned by an 18 wheeler. But then come to think of it I wish my car did have a side curtain would have saved me alot of headaches litterally :(

[Marsh]

Originally posted by Martini Focus
My insurance company said "You can't remove any safety device from the car."

They are wrong. What about especially short people having theirs disabled? You can remove it but you have to go through MTO and you have to reinstall it to sell it. Now if your injured in a car with no airbag, your insurance doesn't have to pay dime one, because you tampered with the safety equipment.

[exST165]

Originally posted by Gord

Ex. "Interior trim removal, defined as interior body panels, dashboard, headliner, sun visors, carpet, underpad, sound insulation, and any other interior dress-up or comfort items. -- 2 pts. any or all"


Gord, as I understand the rules it is 2 points if you remove a single interior panel or gut the entire beast. That is the cruel part of these rules, there is no point in going half-way in a mod so it makes it very difficult to prepare a competitive daily driver. If you want to stay in a stock class r-compound tires are half your allowance, spend that other point wisely! Heck you could gut the interior (2 pts) and put a fire extinguisher (-1 pts)! Or if you have a Mini-Cooper S, get an LSD.

My beef is with 5.8.D Running Gear and Suspension, "2) Any other suspension modification(s). 3 pts." So a set of lowering springs is the same 3 points as ripping out a solid rear axel and fabricating/engineering a double wish bone IRS with nothing but metal hemi and rose joints. I've got a set of lowering / mild performance springs that I bought partly for looks (yeah shoot me) and partly for performance and I'm going to get pilloried if I install them.

I'm going to start a separate thread NO2.

Thomas

[JAYh]

It's my understanding that removing airbags is illegal in the US. I looked into it here in Ontario and it even gives instructions on the MOT's website on how to disable them, so I assume they are not required by law.

Don't forget that the Ontario Vehicle Safety Standards were written in like 1981 and haven't changed since.

- J

[Gord]

From everything I have seen/heard, it is completely legal to disable and/or remove them from your car. Now when you go to re-sell it, I could see it being required.

And to further support it, just as Marshal pointed out, what about the short people. I have heard of numerous instances of short people being killed by airbags, so having them disabled is wise. And if they are disabled, then how is it any different than being removed?

The rules allow them to be disabled electronicly, but not removed. That makes no sense as disabled is the same as removed. It won't do anything to save you.

If they're trying to encourage people to leave them in for use on the street (IMHO they are good to use on the street), then what about non-road licenced trailer queens? I understand it is quite common to see bone stock solo cars (not licenced for the road) arrive on trailers at SCCA events. On a separate note, that is starting to make more sense given the all the recent insurance who-ha that been going on.

Re: the "any or all" clause, that what I figured it was. Thanks Thomas. I was worried it was the other way where going stripped would "point" you to oblivion.

-Gord

P.S. miataboi, you miata people are obsesed with your weight! ;) <insert sexist joke about miata owners here>:p

[AcidGord]

FWIW one of the editorial columns in Inside Track this month on the subject of modification legality wrote that they looked into it and the removal of airbags is completely legal in Ontario.

[miataboi]

Originally posted by AcidGord
FWIW one of the editorial columns in Inside Track this month on the subject of modification legality wrote that they looked into it and the removal of airbags is completely legal in Ontario.

...good enough for me!

That's what I call QUALITY legal advice!

:p :D










And yes... I AM concerned about my weight... low-carbs... bit-o-cardio, diet pills, but NO purging. Lots of water and of course... Dr. Atkins!

[Cliffy]

Originally posted by Gord
5.3.c.ii -- Steering wheel may be sustituted unless you have an airbag, then you can't

Why is this rule in there? I know lots of people who have removed their airbags, and I really think it's a matter of personal preferance if you want to do it (I think for the street it's a bad idea). Why does the rule not give the option for these people?

The airbag removal is a case of weight reduction. However, you may disable your airbag triggering mechanism.

5.8.c -- weight reduction prep points

Can someone clarify the "any or all" clause? Does it mean if you do one mod or a bunch of this type that it's a set number of points? Or is it X number of points for each one that you do? I assume it's the first one.

Ex. "Interior trim removal, defined as interior body panels, dashboard, headliner, sun visors, carpet, underpad, sound insulation, and any other interior dress-up or comfort items. -- 2 pts. any or all"

"Any or all" vs "each" Any or all means there's no limit to the number of interior pieces removed to be assessed the 2 prep. points. "Each" would mean every item is counted individually.

-c.

[gatherer]

Originally posted by Cliffy
The airbag removal is a case of weight reduction. However, you may disable your airbag triggering mechanism.



"Any or all" vs "each" Any or all means there's no limit to the number of interior pieces removed to be assessed the 2 prep. points. "Each" would mean every item is counted individually.

-c.

does this mean that if I take the 2 point hit for any and all for wieght reduction I can remove the steering wheel with airbag?

[Cliffy]

Originally posted by gatherer
does this mean that if I take the 2 point hit for any and all for wieght reduction I can remove the steering wheel with airbag?

Nope, since it's specifically mentioned elsewhere in the rules, it can't be a part of the 2pt. mod. Sorry.

-c.

[gatherer]

ok I don't get it we have a rule that says you can't change a steering wheel with an airbag .. and you have stated it's becuase of wieght reduction and that disabling the system is ok. well if the system is disabled and I want to take the hit for the change I personally don't have a clue why the rules prevent this. While I do understand in their current form they do prevent this. doesn't it restrict a car with airbags just a little too much .. (driver could what a different sized wheel eh?)..... I'm baffled because I don't understand why it's there. saying it's there because of wieght reduction but then saying it can't be removed as part of a wieght removal clause while it can still be disabled... just doesn't make any sense.

[Cliffy]

Originally posted by gatherer
ok I don't get it we have a rule that says you can't change a steering wheel with an airbag .. and you have stated it's becuase of wieght reduction and that disabling the system is ok. well if the system is disabled and I want to take the hit for the change I personally don't have a clue why the rules prevent this. While I do understand in their current form they do prevent this. doesn't it restrict a car with airbags just a little too much .. (driver could what a different sized wheel eh?)..... I'm baffled because I don't understand why it's there. saying it's there because of wieght reduction but then saying it can't be removed as part of a wieght removal clause while it can still be disabled... just doesn't make any sense.

Disabling an airbag is generally a procedure of removing a fuse or switching it off. The weight penalty is negligible. There are no prep. points assessed. It's the same as removing the fuse to your windshiled wipers so won't accidentally activiate them while driving. These items are not specifically covered by the rules and are left to the competitor to figure out. You are given some leeway to make your driving environment conducive to driving well without the replacement/removal of components.

Removing a steering wheel involves more significant weight issues and thats' why it is not allowed. In the case of airbag systems, the initiative was taken by the SCCA to restrict the removal of such devices as a hedge against legal aspects of permanantly deactivating them on cars still driven daily on the streets. CNAC agrees w/ this stance.

As far as 'restricting' an airbag equiped car, let's really look at the practical application of this situation- not the rules or it's automatic perception that switching to a smaller diameter wheel improves things.

While it is generally true that a smaller steering wheel allows for quicker steering via smaller/slower hand movements, consider when this rule came about and the number of cars back then that were not equipped with power steering. It could also be argued that a smaller wheel decreases the leverage you have and takes more effort to move. In that respect, it's a performance loss.

How many airbag equipped cars these days have manual steering? Maybe a couple at the very low end of the market but these are generally not the kinds of cars you'd choose for motorsport applications. These days, if your steering is slow, it is more than likely a shortcoming of the hydraulics and the fact that it can not keep up w/ fast inputs required under autocross demands. In that case no change in steering wheel size will help.

-c.

[roooo]

Please remove 5.3.c.ii from the ruleset!

Either everyone should be allowed to change steering wheels or no one should be allowed to change steering wheels. The SCCA covering their ass with regards to legality does not hold water as an argument for this rule in Canada.

Assessing a prep point for weight reduction is acceptable, but would have to be applicable to anyone changing their steering wheel. An automatic bump out of stock class is just insulting and will leave me no one to compete against in GS. :(

[Marsh]

Why? Doing an intake was an automatic bump before. So now steering wheel is an automatic bump. Lot's of things are free in SS BTW. I don't see why steering wheels should be a point because some people want to run them in stock?

[Gord]

Originally posted by Marsh
Why? Doing an intake was an automatic bump before

Why not? Why not make a lot of these small things a single prep point? None of these things are going to amount to any big advantage. Why aren't R's an automatic bump? They used to be at one point IIRC.

So, some guy with an aftermarket wheel and shifter knob comes out and is bumped to SS. Does that really make sense? Or someone else has an intake. There is a set number of points to work with, use em as you wish and since the number is so low no one really get a huge advantage.

What it does allow is various cars of small levels of prep competing against each other. Isn't that what we are supposed to be encouraging with any set of rules? Fair and close competition across different makes/models?

-Gord

[miataboi]

I'm glad Wes is at the helm.... and that we're not changing the rule book by consensus!



Puh-lease!!!!!

[AlienDNA]

I think people are getting a little confused by two completely seperate issues. Steering wheel removal in 5.3.C.ii and weight reduction in 5.8.C are completely unrelated because the rules apply to two different classes.

5.3.C.ii applies to Stock. Stock is meant to have cars run as close to stock as possible with a minimum of modifications. Weight reduction in Stock is entirely limited to the removal of seats and change in battery weight. And those both cost prep points.

The prohibition against changing air bag wheels to non-airbag wheels has nothing to do with weight savings. It has everything to do with keeping the "stock" in "STOCK", if you know what I mean (and if you don't, well, stop reading right now and don't bother replying, either). The disabling of the airbag is in the rules to allow a certain subset of the population (short people) to compete in SOLO II stock without fearing for their lives just because a few U.S. Congresspeople with new boats courtesy of the auto "safety" lobby think that North Americans need explosives in their dashboards.

5.8.C applies to SS and higher and 5.8.C.6 says - at least according to my interpretation - the steering wheel is fair game.

The net of this is: if you wanna run in Stock leave the wheel alone. Otherwise, have fun.

Stock should be very restrictive. If not, what's the point? Personally, I think the R-Compounds in Stock should be at least 2 points, if not illegal (I know, I know, blah blah blah blah spec tire blah blah blah). I'd also require the stock road wheel size and prohibit modifications to the sway bars (but not the links and locators) and eliminate the weight-saving seat removal points.

But, hey, that's just me.

[Gord]

Eric, I think people do realize the difference in the two sections, but the question is rather why?

The issue of airbag remove IS an issue of weight as stated by Cliff. But if we are allowing seats to be changed, then why not steering wheels w/ airbags with a prep point since we do allow them to be changed if there is no airbag. BTW, I have seen some non-airbag wheels that are just as heavy as the modern airbag ones.

You have raised a very good point, one that I was unsuccessfully trying to get across myself. What is "stock"? Is it truely stock, or lightly prepared.

Right now, "stock" in CNAC is lightly prepared. And the list of things that you can do (through prep points) seems somewhat arbitrary to me. We allow aftermarket limited slip diffs, any size wheel, R's in stock but a strut tower brace bumps you to SS. It doesn't make sense.

Make stock "stock", or make it limited preparation and give every mod a prep point value and make it accessible in stock. Just put a limit on how many points you have (like it is now).

-Gord

[Gord]

Originally posted by miataboi
I'm glad Wes is at the helm.... and that we're not changing the rule book by consensus!

Puh-lease!!!!!

What, you don't like having a say in things that affect you?:confused:

It looks like we aren't going to CNAC rules next year, or the CNAC rules are changing. Either way, I think this is the time to discuss things and try to get it right.

-Gord

[miataboi]

Originally posted by Gord
What, you don't like having a say in things that affect you?:confused:

It looks like we aren't going to CNAC rules next year, or the CNAC rules are changing. Either way, I think this is the time to discuss things and try to get it right.

-Gord

Fair enough... but most people are just grossly self-serving... and not operating at the "principles level" Rise-up, Rise-up! ;)

Yeah... the point is to have SIMILARLY performing cars competing against eachother... the extreme perspective is to only have same make / model / year cars competing against eachother... or everyone in their own individual class! WE ARE ALL CHAMPIONS!!!

It's the difference between doing the RIGHT THING FOR THE SPORT that encourages friendly competition... and whining about minutia...

The other effect that I see... is people with cars that are not GREAT / fast solo cars... and for whatever reason... and they are in the lower-half of cars in their class... they either want a different class where THEY are more competitive... or bitch about NOT being able to do certain mods to their cars... which would make it more competitive... gimme a break...

DRIVER SKILL FIRST - CAR PREP SECOND. Bitching and whining because something is not competitive is a last-step. And should be brought to the proper authorities in the sport off-line.

LUCKILY... (for us... not him) Wes has to wade through each individual person's selfish crusade... to determine what generalizations to make for a rule set that helps BEST accomplish the goals for SOLO 2.

By all means discuss specific issues... just don't take any one super seriously... and look at it NOT from the selfish perspective... but how it fits into the grand scheme of things in the sport. It ain't all about you. (or me)

For instance: Steering wheel change and airbag removal can save 25+ lbs in some cases.

Things are the way they are... Accept the ruleset and adapt... I have personal views on how "stock classes" should be... etc. etc. etc. It don't matter!

Just get a REASONABLE ruleset... and keep it for a LONG time.
Some will be happy... some will not. If not... sorry... too bad. The world MAY not change to suit your current car prep and the class you WANT to compete in... regardless of your personal preferences. 'tis life. B.F.H. (Boo-Hoo)


Basically... I just want all to agree... that we will all make our personal beliefs and opinions known... and then leave it in the capable hands of Wes to make actual decisions.... and I have the utmost faith in him... but obviously... he can't make everyone happy.

To debate!
I just want to get back in the parking lot, under the sun... and compete for personal best times around the lot. It's that simple.
Anyone else looking forward to summer?

[Gord]

Originally posted by miataboi
Fair enough... but most people are just grossly self-serving... and not operating at the "principles level" Rise-up, Rise-up! ;)

Yeah... the point is to have SIMILARLY performing cars competing against eachother...

...

It's the difference between doing the RIGHT THING FOR THE SPORT that encourages friendly competition... and whining about minutia...

...

Things are the way they are... Accept the ruleset and adapt... I have personal views on how "stock classes" should be... etc. etc. etc. It don't matter!

Just get a REASONABLE ruleset... and keep it for a LONG time.
Some will be happy... some will not. If not... sorry... too bad. The world MAY not change to suit your current car prep and the class you WANT to compete in... regardless of your personal preferences. 'tis life. B.F.H. (Boo-Hoo)


A lot of people are self serving, and to a degree, we are all guilty of it at times.

Some of the stuff you are saying are polar opposites. Why just accept the rule set if it is unreasonable? As I pointed out, I think CNAC isn't reasonable at the moment to fit with what we all (hopefully) want in terms of the "spirit" of the rules: fair and balanced competition with similarly capable cars paired against each other.

Let me give you an example of where there is a problem with the CNAC rules (as well as even with the old rules):

Some poor kid with a base model Integra (kids first car) hears about the whole solo 2 thing and decides he wants to "take it to the track" because he's come too close to a run in with the po-po at some "street gathering".

Being part of the whole import tuner thing that he reads about in magazines, he wants to mod his car, but being a kid, has no real money and has to get by doing things that he can afford.

Strut tower braces make your car handle 10x better the mag says, and when he gets a chance to pickup his friends stock bar off his GS-R for next to nothing, he jumps on it and is now part of the "modded crowd". Who-hoo!

Kid shows up to an event, doesn't know where he needs to run, and asks for help. Someone asks what he's got done and hears strut tower brace. That's all? Ok, that puts you in SS.

Kid runs at event, finishes dead last seconds behind everyone in the class because he is a nooob and doesn't know how to drive. What he sees is a whole lot of other cars in the class with mods out the ying-yang and say's what am I doing here?! There's some car's running in "stock" class with more mods then I got!

He goes away, tells his friends that solo looks like fun, but the classing is whacked! They had me in with these monster prepped cars and I had no chance. Forget this solo thing, they just don't want us to come out an join in. :mad:

Now we all know it's just cause he's a nooob, but at the same time, we all know that a strut tower brace isn't going to make any real difference in performance, especially compared to R's or a diff, or whatever that ARE allowed in stock.

I've seen this a hundred times at our events where kid in example above shows up with car prepped with one stupid mod and it lands them in a class where they have no hope.

Yeah, they may be last in their stock class like that as well, but they won't resent it as much as if things look (and are) really unbalanced.

Either go with stock is stock, or IMHO the better way is stock allows some lea-way, and it is open to a bigger set of possible mods so that things as as inclusionary as possible.

Originally posted by miataboi
To debate!
I just want to get back in the parking lot, under the sun... and compete for personal best times around the lot. It's that simple.
Anyone else looking forward to summer? [/B]

You have no idea how much. We have freezing rain here for today... :(

[roooo]

Stock should be very restrictive. If not, what's the point?


Fine. I agree with that. So the rule should be changed so that steering wheel changes are disallowed for everyone. Whether the car originally had an airbag or not shouldn't matter.

I'm just grumpy because I won't have anyone but Steve Tong in my class next year.

[eddie 82]

Originally posted by roooo
Fine. I agree with that. So the rule should be changed so that steering wheel changes are disallowed for everyone. Whether the car originally had an airbag or not shouldn't matter.
Why shouldn't an aftermarket steering wheel be allowed in SS or SP? I can completey strip my interior, put a turbo on, put on huge swaybars, brakes and insanely wide wheels and tires, but I have to have the stock steering wheel???

:confused:

[Gord]

Originally posted by eddie 82
Why shouldn't an aftermarket steering wheel be allowed in SS or SP?

I'm pretty sure he means in stock.

I would agree, either all or none, or give it a prep point so it can be done, but will cost you.

-Gord

[roooo]

I meant only allowed or disallowed for everyone in stock class. Sorry for any confusion. :)

[finboy]

its funny seeing all the concerns about the rules, classes, allowed modifications

some kid has cut his stock springs and slams the car.. that equals a point

another competitor has a wicked trick spring/shock set up.. that equals the same prep point

so what's your point?? lets have 1/4 1/3 1/3 3/4 prep points as well.... depending on the brand eg. cut stock spring, pro kit, ers

and if he paid full list, net, or used from someone

if its a hello kitty air freshener, or a pamala anderson one...

if the car is equipped with ra1's vs. bfg's vs. a032's vs. hoosiers

this thread can go on and on.....

get out of the stock classes.. most of the car guys/gals who enjoy driving, will usually have a few mods to their cars

if they're lucky enough to have R comps on their cars, then they're serious about competing.

my arguement is.. if your willing to go out source a extra set of wheels and R compound tires, and change them before and after the event..

you're there to be competitive...............and have fun..

it has nothing to do with saving your expensive stock tires, otherwise, we'd all be running mashimotos on steelies

in my opnion Stock is stock, period. (no cat back, no aft market "performance" shocks, k&n filters, etc....)

just like it has been delivered from the dealer.


keep the "national/regional rules" super strict so it discourages people to stay in the stock classes, and gets them to prep their cars like they want to so they can compete against people they want to


for the few clubs who run with few number of classes things are so much easier.. you go there to have fun.. gauge yourself against the ftd car in your huge generalized class, and try to beat your buddy for bragg'n rights

if the regionals are supposed to be super competitve and super fair.. then the classes will be strict, and under filled

you might as well give everyone a trophy

every year, there's something newer better...

cars do get reclassed...

i don't get it?? this classing thread can go on an on and on and on

dave t


:confused:

[Gord]

Originally posted by finboy

it has nothing to do with saving your expensive stock tires, otherwise, we'd all be running mashimotos on steelies


Then you have more money than I as it isn't nice having to replace all that expensive street rubber.

Originally posted by finboy

in my opnion Stock is stock, period. (no cat back, no aft market "performance" shocks, k&n filters, etc....)

just like it has been delivered from the dealer.


keep the "national/regional rules" super strict so it discourages people to stay in the stock classes, and gets them to prep their cars like they want to so they can compete against people they want to


Make stock mean as it was delivered certainly makes things stock vs. stock. But what about when a certain tire is no longer available? Or brake pads? Or ...? It's a slippery slope.

Why the big push to get people out of stock? Why make things so difficult to be in stock as to force people to move? What about people who can't afford it? Trying to make the sport into something you need to be rich to win at? Sounds like the way a lot of bigger series have gone...

Originally posted by finboy

for the few clubs who run with few number of classes things are so much easier.. you go there to have fun.. gauge yourself against the ftd car in your huge generalized class, and try to beat your buddy for bragg'n rights

Why even have classes then? Or rules about modifications? Why not run what you brung, everyone goes for FTD only? It would still be fun (it's still competing), but the $$$ put into it will have a large impact on who wins.

Originally posted by finboy

if the regionals are supposed to be super competitve and super fair.. then the classes will be strict, and under filled

you might as well give everyone a trophy

Things don't have to be strict to be super fair and competitive. As I have said, put like with like in terms of capability.

The whole reason we have had such a glut of cars in SS and none is stock lately is because the rules are to strict in terms of the letter. As in my example above. And CNAC right now appears to be more of the same.

3 identical cars, 1 stock, 1 with strut bar, 1 with CAI. Is there going to be a really appreciable difference between them? I don't think so. So why separate them?

Every event we have run here has had a glut of cars in BSS, yet 1/3 to 1/2 of them were closer in performance to stock. We could have had full stock classes and close competition.

-Gord

[finboy]

gord we're on two totally different boats (or i'm on a dinggy all by myself)

swaping parts from canadian tire, or midas are usually direct oem
replacements... (in other words.. not performance oriented) i'm not totally sure what the rule book says here

vs. purchasing certified brake pads from canadian tire vs Hawk or Williams pads designed for competition and street

why push for people to get out of the stock classes?? because unless you are running identical cars with your competitors like a spec class, no one will be happy..

in otherwords.. mod your car in hopes of balancing out the cars vs. cars.

in your case with your TDI beetle.. will you ever be happy with a class?? i doubt it

a pig is a pig is a pig.. no offence, but that car was NOT designed
to be performance oriented (yes? no?) you're behind the 8ball right from the git go

that's why i'd push for people to get out of the stock classes...

it could be me.. but i've noticed there is more compaining and whining in the stock classes vs. the modified ones

like everywhere.. the guy with the most money will usually come out the winner..

one guy buying RA1's vs his competitor driving the same car with Hoosiers

people will always complain....

balancing car vs car is one issue.. but most cases i'd say the bigger difference is the driver.

if you think you have a problem with your car's times against
your competitor... let the class leader drive your car and see if its the car or the guy/girl behind the wheel.. or find out how they spent their time and money preping the car

i still don't get it


:confused:

[finboy]

Originally posted by Gord
Every event we have run here has had a glut of cars in BSS, yet 1/3 to 1/2 of them were closer in performance to stock. We could have had full stock classes and close competition.

-Gord

hey.. and this part ...

so are you saying all the drivers are equally tallented behind the wheel???

i'd day put the top 1/3 of the drivers into the lower 2/3'rds cars

and see what times they run..

stripped or not.. lets worry about improving the tallent, then worry about the classing

dt

[Gord]

Originally posted by finboy
gord we're on two totally different boats (or i'm on a dinggy all by myself)

Actually, I'm beginning to feel it's me who is in the dingy...

Originally posted by finboy

swaping parts from canadian tire, or midas are usually direct oem
replacements... (in other words.. not performance oriented) i'm not totally sure what the rule book says here

vs. purchasing certified brake pads from canadian tire vs Hawk or Williams pads designed for competition and street

why push for people to get out of the stock classes?? because unless you are running identical cars with your competitors like a spec class, no one will be happy..

in otherwords.. mod your car in hopes of balancing out the cars vs. cars.

Again, like I said, it's a slippery slope. We can use any brake pad we like, any muffler, etc. Stock being "stock" is nice, but how do you define "performance"? You can't and that's why stock is everything from stock to stock with some certain allowances. Those allowances don't make enough difference to really matter, but do allow a broader base of cars to be considered "stock".

I'm all for this and think it's the best way to do it. The rules (old ones and CNAC) already allow stock to do everything that you would want to do (R's, wheels, etc.), but some of the stuff that won't help (like strut bars, short shifters, etc) will land people (mostly nooobs) in classes that don't make sense.

It's even the same in mod classes as well to some degree. Anything changed on the clutch will bump you to SP in CNAC (as I read it). So the person who is planning a big power upgrade and has a clutch die them cannot put in the bigger clutch in preparation for the future since they will be bumped. It's an all or nothing type of deal.

Originally posted by finboy

in your case with your TDI beetle.. will you ever be happy with a class?? i doubt it

a pig is a pig is a pig.. no offence, but that car was NOT designed
to be performance oriented (yes? no?) you're behind the 8ball right from the git go

that's why i'd push for people to get out of the stock classes...

I've been happy with all classes I have ever been in with the Bug except for 1. I can say the same for all cars I have ever competed in. No the Bug isn't ideal, but things have always been (with that one exception) reasonable.

And the CNAC rules as they stand let me do everything that I want to do in stock and other classes. But I know based on personal experience in scrutineering that we are still going to have people come out with "stock" cars that are forced into SS and SP becuase of one stupid little change.

Of course the driver makes the biggest difference, but that's not what we are discussing.

I'm talking about the catch-all's and generalizations that don't work.

-Gord

[Gord]

Originally posted by finboy
so are you saying all the drivers are equally tallented behind the wheel???

Of course not. And after re-reading that, it should have said "closer competition".

There's a much bigger spread between well prepped & driven SS car to a "bumped" stock car w/ nooob driving, then said nooob and well prepped/driven stock class car.

Originally posted by finboy

stripped or not.. lets worry about improving the tallent, then worry about the classing

But to improve talent, you need people to participate. And the number I have heard from that don't return take issue w/ classing. (ie. their cars were classed where it didn't make sense)

-Gord

[haniforama]

SCCA took care of this by creating new classes.

Street Touring is now one of the most populated classes and has some of the closest competition. I liked having Street Touring when i took my Civic down to the SCCA events (and killed dem Yankees :D ) but more importantly, it was like vehicles with like mods.

Then when i did an engine swap, i got upgraded to Street Mod (still killed dem :D ) - but again similar cars, similar mods, close competition and great times.

Hanif

[andrew1984]

Originally posted by haniforama
SCCA took care of this by creating new classes.

Street Touring is now one of the most populated classes and has some of the closest competition. I liked having Street Touring when i took my Civic down to the SCCA events (and killed dem Yankees :D ) but more importantly, it was like vehicles with like mods.

Then when i did an engine swap, i got upgraded to Street Mod (still killed dem :D ) - but again similar cars, similar mods, close competition and great times.

Hanif


wise words from a wise man.

kinda puts a tear in your eye...:o

[haniforama]

SCCA Results (http://www.detroit-scca.org/solo/soloresults.asp?DBName=2002SeasonOpener.mdb&EventDesc=Season%20Opener)

Lotsa competition! - 18 in class, 200ish total

[ShaneG]

:eek: Wow! Hanif you were only beat by the pro clas and 1 guy in '76 Dodge Colt. :cool:

how is the "Pro" class determined ?

[haniforama]

There were three Corvettes in BSP that got me too...

The PRO class is an indexed setup they had introduced with PAX factors similar to ours. You can see the factors in brackets underneath the final time along with the class the car normally runs in.

Hanif

[ice/solo racer]

I've been saying(on apparently deaf ears)for the 2 years I've run regional that we should have street touring/street mod type classes to help out with the guys with lightly street prepped cars on street rubber.
I still think it would attract more newbies with a class to run that would even things out for them.I could of had my season paid for if I had a dollar every time I overheard someone talking about having to run in a class with a race prepped corolla while driving their lightly prepped street car.I almost felt bad being 10 seconds faster than them!:D

[tanney]

How about a pax class....... You are classed, lets say FSP, but instead of competing in FSP, your in PAX Class running against your buddy with a DSS car.

It definitely wont help with newbies getting their butts kicked, but it could make things more fun for them.

[miataboi]

well... what happens if you're in css or csp and kick EVERYONE's azz???? :eek: RAW time... PAX'd time... Eastern CENTRAL time.... WHATEVA???? ...it don't matta no way!

WHAT!?!?!?!?

Know that!
Miata4life!
Bring it... BEEATCH!


:D

[ice/solo racer]

Watch out,Miataboi's on the war path again:rolleyes:

When I was running the kart track events up here we just ran on pax because of the lack of competitors,I think it made things much more interesting for everyone.Keep in mind that this was done with people that had for the most part zero involvement in autoxing.
It was good to see people compare their paxed times to all competitors and not just their class or raw times.

[exST165]

Originally posted by ice/solo racer
I could of had my season paid for if I had a dollar every time I overheard someone talking about having to run in a class with a race prepped corolla while driving their lightly prepped street car.

I would be one of those newbies! While I take my hat off to you for preparing such a beautiful car to the limits of the rules and that those of us who don't get what we deserve and (most cruely of all) we could have traded cars and you still would have smoked me, I can't help but think that there is something wrong with the rules that such different cars would be put in the same class.

I've been trying to figure out exactly what is wrong with it and I have come to the conclusion that there is no differentiation between a performance mod that improves performance slightly and keeps a streetable vehicle (lowering springs, strut bar, etc) and flat out 'race' modifications that would make daily driving a risky if not dangerous proposition (rock hard springs, striped interior, roll cage, aggressive alignments etc)

More disturbingly the 2003 CNAC rules really open up the authorized modifications rather than giving everything a point value and letting them pile up. For example once you hit Super Stock by 5.5.F.vi allows modifications of ignition curves and "any ignition system or part may be used" and 5.5.F.v allows any ECU or chip as long as it doesn't affect boost on a turbo car. Well I really don't want to play with the ECU on my daily driver but I rather run some mild lowering springs. If I do that right now up to my neck into Street Prepared where for example 5.6.F.iii ("transmission, differential, and transaxle may be modified or substituted, provided the original system of suspension is not changed. The gear ratios could be changed") implies I could be running against people with Quaife sequential gearboxes or custom gearsets. Unless I misunderstood how the rules are laid out, that Quaife will cost zero prep-points while I will still get dinged 3 points to put lowering springs on. Those three point will now let me (5.6.E.iii) modify any suspension component in any way as long as I keep the original configuration (what is that exactly - four wheels?) or (5.6.E.v) relocate any suspension mounting points.

Once the 2004 rules are finalized then it is up to everyone to set up their car to their best advantage and there is no point crying that this or that weren't fair - the rules are out there for everyone to see. If somebody out there prepared a faster car than you within the rules in your class then that's just part of the game we play. HOWEVER before the rules are finalized we need to ask ourselves (or to be more exact Wes needs to ask himself) are these rules going to encourage competition within the spirit of Solo II? Lowering springs are docked points but full stand-alone ignition systems (Electromotive Tec-II anyone?) aren't? Strut bars bump a car to super stock while ripping out all the seats and putting a roll-bar/cage and a fire extinguisher doesn't cost a car in stock a single point? 5.4.C: +2 for both front seats +1 for rear seats -2 for roll bar -1 for extinguisher = 0 points! Try explaining to a member of the local constabulary that it's okay to have a roll cage in your daily driver because it is 'stock'!


Originally posted by ice/solo racer

I almost felt bad being 10 seconds faster than them!:D

Great, I almost feel better now :)

Edit: If I've missed the boat on the application of the rules please PLEASE let me know!

[tanney]

The rules are, for the most part fair. They will never treat each car identical and fairly though

It's up to you what you do. If you have a yugo, expect to get spanked, no matter what.

There will always be the best car and the worst car in a class, it's up to the competitor if they want to run the car they currently own, or buy a new car to run solo 2 and be competitive.

If you do ANY mods to your car, research those mods. Lowering springs WILL NOT make you competitive, they will lower your car. If you want to be competitive, research and test springs and shocks. Don't expect to put lowering springs that you pay $29.99 for from some "performance store" (i.e. rice shop) to make you competitive, they won't. How many springs did Pat go through before he found the "right set up for him" dozens, no?

Why should ignition stuff not be free above stock class? Once you get to the SS level, some mods are freebies, once you move up to SP more mods are free, move up again to MOD and a lot of mods are free. Sure some mods move you up classes, yep, that's what mods do.

Now if anybody is questioning whether rule changes are required in Ontario, take a look at this past season's results and see if there is a classification "problem" in the current classification system. When two thirds of the competitors at any given event are in two classes (one of which is a catch all class for the newer "performance" cars), there is either a problem with the classification system or a there are a shit load of Jones that say "everyone on my street has a suv, so I should have an suv or everyone else watches "the simple life" and I'm a sheep so I will watch it too, it must be good if everyone else drives one or watches it.

IT"S TIME FOR A CHANGE!!!!!! If people don't come out next year because "They changed the system", then so be it!

[miataboi]

Originally posted by tanney
The rules are, for the most part fair. They will never treat each car identical and fairly though

It's up to you what you do. If you have a yugo, expect to get spanked, no matter what.

There will always be the best car and the worst car in a class, it's up to the competitor if they want to run the car they currently own, or buy a new car to run solo 2 and be competitive.

If you do ANY mods to your car, research those mods. Lowering springs WILL NOT make you competitive, they will lower your car. If you want to be competitive, research and test springs and shocks. Don't expect to put lowering springs that you pay $29.99 for from some "performance store" (i.e. rice shop) to make you competitive, they won't. How many springs did Pat go through before he found the "right set up for him" dozens, no?

Why should ignition stuff not be free above stock class? Once you get to the SS level, some mods are freebies, once you move up to SP more mods are free, move up again to MOD and a lot of mods are free. Sure some mods move you up classes, yep, that's what mods do.

Now if anybody is questioning whether rule changes are required in Ontario, take a look at this past season's results and see if there is a classification "problem" in the current classification system.

IT"S TIME FOR A CHANGE!!!!!! If people don't come out next year because "They changed the system", then so be it!

WOW!
REALLY refreshing.... I for one LIKE IT!!!!! Look forward to you being the big-man in charge...

And re:
Originally posted by tanney
When two thirds of the competitors at any given event are in two classes (one of which is a catch all class for the newer "performance" cars), there is either a problem with the classification system or a there are a shit load of Jones that say "everyone on my street has a suv, so I should have an suv or everyone else watches "the simple life" and I'm a sheep so I will watch it too, it must be good if everyone else drives one or watches it.

It's TRUE!!!!
Might I suggest... that all modded (riced out) FWD cars... e.g. honduh's, vee-dumbs, etc. be either a) banned... or put into their own class... and run during the week.

And can I suggest that Altezzas put you into CSP??? It'll help fill the class out some...

:D :p



In all truth.... you 'da man Wes...
Not only does he have the right attitude / persoective... but he goes on record! :eek:

AALLLLLLLLLL-RRRRIIIIIGGGGGHHHHHHHTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!

[gatherer]

Well put there Wes,

as for the original comments I mades..... oppps... I didn't realize that the rule in question was only for stock cars. I think in the 2003 rules you couldn't change the wheel to one with a different diameter anyways so whats the point?

as for driving a stock car... I probably will continue to keep my civic in the stock classes because it prevents me burning holes in my pockets. I built a budget for next year that included all my entry fees and prepping athe car to max allowed.... I'm looking at spending 10 grand.... and yet still remaining in stock... I can't imagine what I'd spend if I decided to move up the classes.....

I will eventually move out of stock but that won't be till I've improved as a driver.

[miataboi]

Originally posted by gatherer
Well put there Wes,

I built a budget for next year that included all my entry fees and prepping athe car to max allowed.... I'm looking at spending 10 grand.... and yet still remaining in stock... I can't imagine what I'd spend if I decided to move up the classes.....

OK... you're pretty new... so I guess no one told you one of the fundamental rules of motorsport.... So I guess I can let it slide THIS TIME...


Rule 1) NEVER add up how much you spend on this stoopid sport!!!!!

It just doesn't make sense... and you can NEVER rationalize it... so why bother... it can only haunt you and force you to question yourself! So don't do it!!!

:D :p ;)

[haniforama]

I'm on my sixth set of springs - eek!

Next year will be the seventh set - double eek!

[ShaneG]

I am on my first...and second set of Hanif's springs;)

[tanney]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to alienate anyone or any specific vehicle.

These rules are the Canadian National rule set and I am assuming that a fair bit of thought and effort have gone into them (long before I ever read them) and the effort continues to make the rules for safe and good competition.

If I ruffle any specific person's feathers, I apologize, that is not my intention (unless of course you like your feathers ruffled)...

[exST165]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tanney
If you do ANY mods to your car, research those mods.

And that's what I'm doing. I'm rasing questions now because the rules aren't finalized yet. When they are finalized it is game on, but until then there exists the opportunity to make changes.

I lost the quote, but if lowering springs don't affect performance, can I claim that it is non-performance enhancing mod and claim no preparation points? Similarly if I balast up a racing bucket seat to weigh the same as a stock seat?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tanney
Why should ignition stuff not be free above stock class? Once you get to the SS level, some mods are freebies, once you move up to SP more mods are free, move up again to MOD and a lot of mods are free. Sure some mods move you up classes, yep, that's what mods do.

Not to bust your chops Wes, but you haven't answered the question: why should ignition stuff be free above stock? Why are some mods freebies and others cost points? History? Because "that's the way it has always been done"? This one has always puzzled me because it forces competitors to choose between making mods that they might not otherwise want to make or to leave performance on the table. I would have expected that every mod have a point cost and the allowance in every class would be higher to compensate. If some mods are not allowed in lower classes fine, but I just don't understand what the guiding principle is behind the proposed rules structure.

If we are worried about discouraging newbies who are bumped to Super Stock because of their strut bars of questionable performance value while there (could be) cars in stock running full cages we need to ask ourselves if the rules make sense (while we still can) and not just fall back on "those are the rules".

Thomas - not meaning to be a PITA, honest!

[tanney]

And that's what I'm doing. I'm rasing questions now because the rules aren't finalized yet. When they are finalized it is game on, but until then there exists the opportunity to make changes.
We are moving to the CNAC rule set. It is set. I am making changes to the rule book and MOST of the changes are in sections 1 - 4 and the addition of another section, so far. There will be changes to car related, but those will be handed down from the National committee. The entire point of this exercise is for the rules to be the same across the country. You prep your car for the club level and then if you so desire, run the nationals with the same car.

Not to bust your chops Wes, but you haven't answered the question: why should ignition stuff be free above stock? Why are some mods freebies and others cost points? History? Because "that's the way it has always been done"? This one has always puzzled me because it forces competitors to choose between making mods that they might not otherwise want to make or to leave performance on the table. I would have expected that every mod have a point cost and the allowance in every class would be higher to compensate. If some mods are not allowed in lower classes fine, but I just don't understand what the guiding principle is behind the proposed rules structure.

Instead of saying that you are allowed 468 points in SS and 856 points at SP, you are given freebies at each level. Some things are free, some allowable with points and some are not allowable at each level.

Now if you had 468 points to play with.....would you make 468 points worth of mods? Most people wouldn't, but some will. The some that willl want to win. If you want to win, you prep your car to the maximum that the rules allow.

Springs... 1 point for cut stock springs, 2 points for non-performance lowering springs, 30 points for competition springs, whatever......stock springs in stock class (no cut springs here), any other springs, no matter what performance features, 3 points. It's up to you how you want to have your car the other five days of the week....

Cages are a safety feature, sure they add stiffness to the chassis..... Here's a thought, you have to have a roll cage to compete........ how come only three cars show up for events? Safety is of upmost importance, so to encourage competitors to make their cars safer for competition a bonus is given for a cage and a fire extinguisher that gives you negative points that can be applied to the allowable body and trim mods. It's pretty simple if you think about it. Adding a 100lb cage stiffens your chassis abit, adds safety and allows you to remove a few pounds worth of trim.....

This "debate" can go on for days.

There is a National rule set that may be manidtory for ALL regions to go to in the next couple of years (it may be mandated by ASN Canada FIA for insurance purposes), I am making sure that we move that direction before being forced to.

[Gord]

Originally posted by tanney
We are moving to the CNAC rule set. It is set. I am making changes to the rule book and MOST of the changes are in sections 1 - 4 and the addition of another section, so far. There will be changes to car related, but those will be handed down from the National committee. The entire point of this exercise is for the rules to be the same across the country. You prep your car for the club level and then if you so desire, run the nationals with the same car.


Are we moving to CNAC or a subset/slight variation (it sounds like the latter)? If it isn't exactly the same rules (in terms of classing, etc.) then it seems pointless to choose this set. Change for the sake of change doesn't make sense.

If we are changing the rules because there is some stuff we don't like, then I think we should consider input from everyone involved.

Originally posted by tanney

Instead of saying that you are allowed 468 points in SS and 856 points at SP, you are given freebies at each level. Some things are free, some allowable with points and some are not allowable at each level.

Now if you had 468 points to play with.....would you make 468 points worth of mods? Most people wouldn't, but some will. The some that willl want to win. If you want to win, you prep your car to the maximum that the rules allow.

The current rules allow you to do everything that you would really want to do in each respective class (for the most part) in terms of being fast. In other words, all the good mods are already covered.

But what about the "useless" (for lack of a better term) mods that we so many of? The strut bar, the grippy clutch, the CAI, the short shifter... Any of these can land you in a preped class, and really won't do a damn in terms of helping you each by themselves.

I guess I am questioning the arbitrariness (if thats a word) of some of the mods that are only allowing in SS or SP. A lot of things there are really basic that we see a lot of.

Originally posted by tanney

This "debate" can go on for days.

There is a National rule set that may be manidtory for ALL regions to go to in the next couple of years (it may be mandated by ASN Canada FIA for insurance purposes), I am making sure that we move that direction before being forced to.

Yes, this debate can go on forever. But just as you say here, it looks like things may get forced on us. Even if you don't run the regional series, most of the clubs (MCO included) are going to this common set of rules for this reason.

Based on my personal experience with what I see at our events, the stuff I talk about above is going to happen. And we will end up with the same situation we had with the past rules; a lot of cars in prepped classes and none in stock.

If we are changing rules, I'd like to have a say in how things will affect us at a local club level, if not at the regional series.

Personally, there is noting that I would change about the current rules (CNAC) for prepping my car for HS. I can do everything I want right now. But I also know we are going to see a lot of "stock" cars running in SS/SP here because of some of the rules.

-Gord

[tanney]

If my post was read properly, WE ARE USING THE CNAC CAR CLASSIFICATIONS SYSTEM AND PREP POINT SCHEDULES.

CNAC stands for Canadian National Autoslalom Championship.....which are weekend events, not a series that lasts the whole year. Most of the changes,as I said in an earlier post are in sections 1-4 and a new section added, all of which has to do with the series, not an weekend event.

I will not comment further untilafter the rule book is released.

If everyone was so concerned, each club would have appointed a rep, like I asked when I sent out an e-mail to each club. A couple of clubs have responded....

[tanney]

Oh and one further thing, if your club didn't ask if anyone wanted to be involved in this, yell at them. Every CASC-OR club in the province was asked for a rep via e-mail. All the said e-mail addresses were aquired through club web pages or casc-or's web page.

[Gord]

Originally posted by tanney
If my post was read properly, WE ARE USING THE CNAC CAR CLASSIFICATIONS SYSTEM AND PREP POINT SCHEDULES.


Then I guess my NOS system will be allowed? ;) :D

Seriously though (and no I'm not trying to be difficult Wes), if we are sticking stricktly to the CNAC rules, are there changes in them that are coming (like you were saying the exclusion of NO2), can we find out what they are and have a voice in it?

I'll check with our executive to see if they are part of the discussion.

-Gord

[finboy]

hey Wes..

i'm having a girls day in the new year...

hair colouring
facial
massage (nude reverse ;) )

i think you could use one bud!!


:)

if you don't get burnt out at the start at the season, let it happen before the games begin

then you'll have more fun during the actual events

good luck bro

[ice/solo racer]

We've all been in the same boat exst165,nobody gets experience without starting at the bottom first.I went thru the same thing as you-used street lowering springs on my civic sir and was bumped to BSP.Of course the car was nowhere near competitive even at a club level(I used to set FTD's and barely finish in the top 10 on pax).
But that little lesson taught me that if I wanted to be truly competitive than I would have to do the research and pick a car AND more importantly the mods that would benefit that car the best.
2 different people could build the same model of car(take a civic for an example)and use different components/different prep points on their way to a class and one might be successfull the other might not.For example I have about 3 seasons of experience with my car and have picked which mods would make the biggest difference(hope anyway)if I had done a poor job of picking those mods I most likely wouldn't have been anywhere near as quick as I was.
So having said all that,read the rules,decide how commited to the sport with car prep you want to be and above all try and enjoy the sport for what it is.Trust me once you commit as I and others have done some of the fun factor gets lost in the competitiveness of the sport-or at least it did for me.
Gotta get back to total enjoyment-next year as neither of my cars will be even close to optimised for solo2 use so I get to come out for fun.

[exST165]

Originally posted by Gord
Then I guess my NOS system will be allowed? ;) :D


Gord, you're a braver man than I ...

Thomas (who thinks he owes Wes a beer, assuming Wes drinks beer ...)

[exST165]

Originally posted by ice/solo racer
We've all been in the same boat exst165,nobody gets experience without starting at the bottom first.I went thru the same thing as you-used street lowering springs on my civic sir and was bumped to BSP.Of course the car was nowhere near competitive even at a club level(I used to set FTD's and barely finish in the top 10 on pax).
But that little lesson taught me that if I wanted to be truly competitive than I would have to do the research and pick a car AND more importantly the mods that would benefit that car the best.


Thanks for the kind words ice/solo racer (Tom?). I'm at the bottom of the experience ladder and trying to find the most cost effective way to build more with the ride I've got.

Wes has pointed out that there is something wrong with the rules when two thirds of the competitors are in two classes and I agree. Although I haven't been through them in detail having a lot more base classes and different classes for SS and SP than Stock makes a great deal of sense.

<rant>
My problem is that IMHO the CNAC rule set doesn't make sense in the Stock-SS-SP progression: we can have 'stock' cars with full roll cages, but they cannot have strut bars; lowering springs eat up half a 'super stock' car's preparation points but then once that mod is claimed all the suspension bushings can be replaced with any non-metal bushing of the same type!

The obvious reply is that those are are the rules and if you don't read them before you start preparing your car you are asking for it. Fair enough. The question I keep asking is: why are those the rules? Was there not some guiding principles laid out before they were written as to what kind of cars it was desired to see in stock/super-stock/ etc ...

I would have expected somebody somewhere would have said something like:
- a stock car is as you bought it from the dealer, with allowances for non-OEM, non-performance related consumables and very limited mods, stuff that you could do in a couple of hours in your driveway: different wheels and tires, racing seat, etc.
-Super-Stock a daily driven car with some more serious/expensive modifications.
-Street Prepared is still capable of being driven to an event but not likely a daily driver: aggressive suspension settings eating tires or making it too twitchy, stripped interiors, etc.
-Modified: they were used for simple transportation once, but not anymore. Good luck getting once certified to run on the streets.

I would suggest that if there were guiding principles like this then we could refer back to them when a truely stock car with a strut bar that took half an hour to install gets bumped into Super-stock and say: yeah there is something wrong with this, we'll have to look at it for next year.

Or allowing a mods in super-stock (such as stripped interiors, roll cages, poly-urethane suspension bushings) that clearly make the car not fit the vision of a 'daily driver'.

It appears that the rules effectively class the cars according to performance because experienced competitors car's are being prepared according to the rules (duh) and not because the rules group modified cars of similar capability together.

I realize that I'm raising issues that are way beyond the scope of changes that Wes is talking about to the base CNAC rules and I've given lots of amunition to people who want to take a shot at my POV, so </rant>

Thomas (who now probably owes Wes two beers)

[gatherer]

Originally posted by miataboi
OK... you're pretty new... so I guess no one told you one of the fundamental rules of motorsport.... So I guess I can let it slide THIS TIME...


Rule 1) NEVER add up how much you spend on this stoopid sport!!!!!

It just doesn't make sense... and you can NEVER rationalize it... so why bother... it can only haunt you and force you to question yourself! So don't do it!!!

:D :p ;)

thanks for the rule :p

[Gord]

Originally posted by exST165
Gord, you're a braver man than I ...

Thomas (who thinks he owes Wes a beer, assuming Wes drinks beer ...)
No, that was just a poor attempt at humor on my part :)

But I too want get Wes a BEvERage of his choice the next time I am in the GTA.

BTW Wes, what vehicle/class are you running next year?

-Gord

[haniforama]

I think he's running an EG Civic Hatch in HS :D

[tanney]

Nope, if my new beast runs long enough, DSS, a 92 Civic Si with suspension. If that doesn't work out, 95 Civic DX in HS. If that doesn't work out, I still have a skateboard around somewhere....either that or mouch rides again.

[101rs]

Originally posted by tanney
Nope, if my new beast runs long enough, DSS, a 92 Civic Si with suspension.
ahh...not again...DSS is really starting to look something alot like BSS of last year but with Marsh throwen in just to make things a bit harder. i can't wait :D
u think we can make one of the wosca winter event a regional event so i can try and get a head start :p

[Greg F]

Originally posted by miataboi
well... what happens if you're in css or csp and kick EVERYONE's azz???? :eek: RAW time... PAX'd time... Eastern CENTRAL time.... WHATEVA???? ...it don't matta no way!

WHAT!?!?!?!?

Know that!
Miata4life!
Bring it... BEEATCH!


:D
Eminem:
Nowadays everybody wanna talk, like they got something to say;
But nothin' comes out when they move they lips, just a bunch of gibberish;
And the miataboi act like he forgot about Paul!:eek:

[ice/solo racer]

Exst165,part of the problem of the rules used over the last few years is that they had nothing in common with the rest of canada,certainly nothing in common with the scca.
So now we can follow closely with the rest of north america in terms of a common rule set,your concerns would likely be better directed at the cnac commitee than at Wes. Wes has the job of implamenting an existing rule set-not creating a completly brand new one.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't raise concerns,thats how things get changed if they need to be changed-I protested the civic SIR's root class of BSS with 2 points for 2000,completly back fired on me but thats another story!:confused:
The more involved you become you'll see that most people simply don't take the time to prepare the car to the max of the ruleset within whatever class their in.So I'd wait untill you see how you do agaisnt others in class-and be honest in your driving and be sure to study the front runners on course at all times possible to understand where they may be making up time on you.It really is amazing how much time can be found simply by focusing on what the lines others are using and deciding if it works or doesn't work and then apply it to your run.
I don't recall which car you drive of the top of my head,so I'm not knocking your driving at all,just trying to help a new guy steepen the learning curve-wish I'd known somebody to help me in those early autox days for me(way way back in fall of '99 in my first cone course ever:D )

[exST165]

Originally posted by ice/solo racer
Exst165,part of the problem of the rules used over the last few years is that they had nothing in common with the rest of canada,certainly nothing in common with the scca.
So now we can follow closely with the rest of north america in terms of a common rule set,your concerns would likely be better directed at the cnac commitee than at Wes. Wes has the job of implamenting an existing rule set-not creating a completly brand new one.

Well Wes doesn't seem to hesitate to break from the CNAC rules where they are way off base (NO2 again) and that is a good thing, but it raises the question as to why we are adopting a rule set that has these issues. How many people who competed under the old CASC-OR Solo II rules would have competed in SCCA events but didn't because different rules meant different car preparation strategies?

Originally posted by ice/solo racer
I'm not saying that you shouldn't raise concerns,thats how things get changed if they need to be changed-I protested the civic SIR's root class of BSS with 2 points for 2000,completly back fired on me but thats another story!:confused:
The more involved you become you'll see that most people simply don't take the time to prepare the car to the max of the ruleset within whatever class their in.

And I'm going to be one of those people, I just want to keep that gap as narrow as possible without compromising my daily driver.

Originally posted by ice/solo racer
So I'd wait untill you see how you do agaisnt others in class-and be honest in your driving and be sure to study the front runners on course at all times possible to understand where they may be making up time on you.It really is amazing how much time can be found simply by focusing on what the lines others are using and deciding if it works or doesn't work and then apply it to your run.
I don't recall which car you drive of the top of my head,so I'm not knocking your driving at all,just trying to help a new guy steepen the learning curve-wish I'd known somebody to help me in those early autox days for me(way way back in fall of '99 in my first cone course ever:D )

I only competed at a hand full of CCC events at the Bronte GO station last year plus the Solo II school. I think I saw you at Bronte one rainy day but I don't recall speaking to you. I was in BSS (weren't we all?) driving a black 1997 Acura Integra RS. My driving style would be best described as eclectic.

Thomas

[AcidGord]

Well, to be fair I believe somewhere in the CNAC guide there's a statement that additional safety rules can be enforced at an event/club level as long as the supplementals are MORE strict than the original. You could probably add N2O restriction under that clause.

[Gord]

Originally posted by tanney
Nope, if my new beast runs long enough, DSS, a 92 Civic Si with suspension. If that doesn't work out, 95 Civic DX in HS. If that doesn't work out, I still have a skateboard around somewhere....either that or mouch rides again.
Well, my car is always available to you if you're stuck... and if I can manage to push, pull or tow it to events. The Passat is a nice family hauler, but I'm not so sure it makes a good car hauler.

-Gord

[haniforama]

Originally posted by Gord
I only compete using off-road vehicles. None of my street vehicles are ever used for competition purposes.


Haha - nice disclaimer...

[gatherer]

Originally posted by tanney
Nope, if my new beast runs long enough, DSS, a 92 Civic Si with suspension. If that doesn't work out, 95 Civic DX in HS. If that doesn't work out, I still have a skateboard around somewhere....either that or mouch rides again.

I'll gladly lend a hand to keep the DSS car running Wes... as long as it keeps you out of HS... :p

[Gord]

Originally posted by haniforama
Haha - nice disclaimer...
Think they'll buy it?;)

Seriously, after some of the horror storries lately, I've been doing a lot of thinking (worrying). Not sure it will remain safe for much longer.

I think the official term is "trailer queen"...

-Gord

[Yvan]

5.3.C.ii: On cars equipped with air bag supplemental restraint systems, no substitution is allowed. Does anyone know the actual rationelle for this rule?

[Yvan]

For instance: Steering wheel change and airbag removal can save 25+ lbs in some cases. Such as?

[exST165]

Originally posted by Yvan
Does anyone know the actual rationelle for this rule?

To quote "understanding is not required, only obedience".

There was some discussion and apologists to the new regime put forward the argument that it was to maintain the 'stock' nature of cars in the stock class. Remember that (from memory) 5.3 is for cars in the stock class only, 5.8 is for super stock, street prepared and modified. Now why you can't remove an airbag equiped steering wheel in stock but you can put in a full roll cage is absolutely beyond me.

I am told that it is possible to remove the airbag on a car and keep it street legal. Supposedly there are all sorts of administrative hoops that you have to jump through but (I am told that) it can be done.

Thomas

[rpr]

The only rules in the highway traffic act regarding air bags (that I could find) relate to installation of rebuilt air bags. Nothing about the removal or disabling of them. Transport Canada has a form to use to get a dealer or service technician to disable or add an on/off switch, but I assume if you do it yourself, as I did, that you don't need the form. There is NOTHING that states you cannot remove or disable the devices.

The MTO link is here (http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/faq/index.html#AirBags6) , Transport Canada is here (http://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/absg/absg_e.htm)

[Yvan]

rpr is right, vehicle safety standards are established by Transport Canada, not the province.

There are no current federal laws regarding removal of airbags.

Therefore from a safety standpoint, the rules do not reflect any sort of statute.

From a weight issue, my airbag is about 3.5 pounds, nothing compared to the weight of a seat which costs 1 prep point.

[exST165]

Originally posted by exST165
To quote "understanding is not required, only obedience".

There was some discussion and apologists to the new regime put forward the argument that it was to maintain the 'stock' nature of cars in the stock class.


Okay, that is probably going to come across as either being to harsh or too hokey (for those that recognize the quote as being from Babalyon 5). There were problems with the old rules, but IMHO the new rules (and maybe the old rules too, I haven't gone through them that carefully) are going to make it difficult to prepare a street legal daily driver in Super-Stock to the limit of the rules.

At last count I now owe Wes three BEvERages.

Thomas