Another CNAC question - NO2 [Archive] - CASC Ontario Region Message Forums

exST165

12-05-2003, 12:58 AM

"5.8 Preparation Point Schedule - Super Stock, Street Prepared and Modified Cateogry"

"E. Engine and Drive Train"

"3) Turbocharger, supercharger, or N02 injection. other [sic] than OEM 4 pts. Each"

Can someone confirm that Nitros (or is that Nawwwws?) is now legal with the appropriate preparation points?

Are clubs running non-regional events (RX-7 Club/PITL, CCC, WOSCA, etc) cool with competitors showing up with cars setup with NO2?

While I don't have any problem with cars running NO2 (certainly cheaper than installing a turbo kit!) given the current law enforcement environment (don't get me started ...) I didn't think this would be the sort of thing we would want to be seen encouraging.

TIA,
Thomas

tanney

12-05-2003, 12:04 PM

Can someone confirm that Nitros (or is that Nawwwws?) is now legal with the appropriate preparation points?
No it will not be legal, period, no discussion on this one. Cars even found with the hardware will probably no be allowed to run, even without the bottle.

NOS is a serious accident waiting to happen.....

exST165

12-05-2003, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by tanney
No it will not be legal, period, no discussion on this one.

Not leaving yourself any wiggle room on this are you Wes? :)

Okay, so now we aren't running the CNAC rules, but a subset of them. Where are the differences documented? Is there an addendum page on the Solo II web-page or is there going to be a modified document posted? Not trying to be a jerk or a lawyer (or both) but if people are going spend their time and money preparing their cars to a set of rules it had better be clear _EXACTLY_ what those rules are.

Originally posted by tanney
Cars even found with the hardware will probably no be allowed to run, even without the bottle.[/B]

Okay, now that is a bit harsh. Before I get all idealistic and pick a fight, I'll just be scarcastic. So when would this be discovered? During the pre-race tech inspection or the post race scrutineering?

Originally posted by tanney
NOS is a serious accident waiting to happen..... [/B]

In what sense? Maintaining relations with the local constabulary or having people carrying cylinders of a compressed flamable gas? Or both should tragedy strike?

Thanks for your reply Wes,
Thomas

tanney

12-05-2003, 01:47 PM

I didn't leave myself any wriggling room because in my opinion, there is no place for NOS in Solo 2. There is no place for NOS anywhere except at a drag strip.

Do you actually expect some person with no autox experience, punching the nos at the wrong time and actually being able to control their vehicle. We have non movable objects, marshals and spectators that are involved in Solo 2 and keeping people safe is much more important than having someone get the extra burst.....

The 2004 CNAC rule book is not out yet, nor is the hybrid version of the CNAC rules that will be used for the regioanl series next year.

There are things in the CNAC rule book that pertain ONLY to single weekend National events and not to a regional series (although making anyone who wants to be scored for the series buy a solo license, is an option, for example).

An updated version of the rule book should be available sometime in Jan.

In previous years, the rule book hasn't been available until April, so I am trying to fast track this so that people can prep cars. I posted links to the 2003 CNAC rules so that people could start thinking about what they want to do for next year.

Actually, the SCCA rule book for 2004 isn't even out yet..........

As soon as the rule book is available, it will be posted.

The first thing that people need to do before being scored for next year is JOIN A CASC-OR AFFILIATED CLUB!!!!!!! That will remain in the CASC-OR rule book and will be enforced!

IanO

12-05-2003, 01:50 PM

Besides the problem of hitting the go button at the wrong time, NOS is rather explosive if not dealt with properly (which I would bet is the case in way more situations than we'd care to know):

NOS Explosion (http://tnmotorsports.com/boom.htm)

Martini Focus

12-05-2003, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by tanney
The first thing that people need to do before being scored for next year is JOIN A CASC-OR AFFILIATED CLUB!!!!!!! That will remain in the CASC-OR rule book and will be enforced!

Question... why and for the new people could you list them?

Thanks :D

tanney

12-05-2003, 01:56 PM

It is a regional series. If your running a club series, no problem, but this is a CASC-OR regional series and them's the rules. If you go through this year's (or previous year's) it is in there as well.

http://www.casc.on.ca/Clubs.asp will start you in the right direction....

AirCooln

12-05-2003, 02:17 PM

The myth about nitrous oxide needs to be stoped right here. It is not flamable. It is not explosive. It is inert. Check the label on the bottle people!

The trouble (and benefit) with it is the extra Oxygen it contains. It seperates from the rest of the gas at around 800 degrees. Oxygen is unstable and burns easily.

This is good information:
http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/august01/nitrous.shtml

Hey wait! Does that mean non of our motors can use Oxygen in compitition? ;)

PS...No, I am not questioning the policy, I completley agree with it. Just disturbing the peace a little.

J.C.

12-05-2003, 02:19 PM

Pressing a button to activate NO2 is not the only way to use it. The way alot of NO2 is used on solo, drag or roadrace application is by wiring the system to the accelerator where it activates only under a preselected load or full throttle. That being said it can cause damage if used unwisely.(just like extreme turbo boost) As for hitting it at wrong times and creating a loss of control that would be similar to a laggy turbo system?

As long as everyone abides by the same rules and no one uses it then banning it is fair.

gatherer

12-05-2003, 03:31 PM

as far as I know it's always been banned so I wouldn't expect an up roar if it remains thats way... since all regional competitors haven't installed it or even built their cars to use it. it's just one less thing to have to worry about or consider buying

haniforama

12-06-2003, 08:59 PM

NO2 is a polluting exhaust emission.

N2O is the stuff that accelerates combustion :D

TYSON

12-06-2003, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by AirCooln
The myth about nitrous oxide needs to be stoped right here. It is not flamable. It is not explosive. It is inert. Check the label on the bottle people!

You mean the label on the 900 psi pressure vessel? Nothing under that kind of pressure is "inert". Take a closer look at the picture IanO linked to...

http://tnmotorsports.com/Images/badnos3.jpg

While the dangers are far overplayed in the media and by the police, I see no reason to allow it.

Personally I would not want to be the event organizer when someone discovers a nitrous backfire is more easily triggered during the rapid on / off throttle transitions of SOLO II.

Flying hoods, shattered windshields and fireballs out the intake would not go over well in the mall parking lot.;)

Marsh

12-06-2003, 10:26 PM

There is a very good reason that the drag strip requires you label the N2O bottle location for safety workers. High pressure bottles have no place on race cars. Never mind the fact that it is useless in a solo-2. I can't think of any reason why anyone on this board would even bring it up other than to stir up sh!t.

exST165

12-07-2003, 12:08 AM

Sorry, I wasn't trying to stir the pot, I was just stunned that the CNAC rules allowed "NO2 injection" and was wondering if CASC-OR was going to follow.

Thomas

Greg F

12-07-2003, 01:00 AM

Hmm, I saw nitrous being allowed in the rules and started thinking about running it. ...seemed like a pretty legit inquiry to me.

Strangely enough, I haven't seen any mention of a PRV on those 'bottles' or anywhere in the pressure circuit. It seems the only safety is through keeping the bottle cool.

And I'm not totally convinced all that damage was from the nitrous bottle.

Nissan Racer

12-07-2003, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by tanney
1)I didn't leave myself any wriggling room because in my opinion, there is no place for NOS in Solo 2. There is no place for NOS anywhere except at a drag strip.

2)An updated version of the rule book should be available sometime in Jan.

In previous years, the rule book hasn't been available until April, so I am trying to fast track this so that people can prep cars. I posted links to the 2003 CNAC rules so that people could start thinking about what they want to do for next year.

3)The first thing that people need to do before being scored for next year is JOIN A CASC-OR AFFILIATED CLUB!!!!!!! That will remain in the CASC-OR rule book and will be enforced!

1) And nor should NOS be allowed, I can't believe it would even be questioned
2) Thanks Wes, thats great news. and thanks for all your hard work.
3) As it should be

finboy

12-07-2003, 01:31 PM

its NOT an issue of it being question...

my take on this thread was Thomas saw something that should be addressed...

More like the dudes bring it up to the organzers attention, so it does get CHANGED from the git go

Preventing any issues with the laughing gas in the future.

if you guys can't understand that... ummmmmmmmmmmm
then we have problems.

If people can't bring up valid points, or concerns in the rule book, without being refered to as a poo disturber

thats wrong.

If there are issues that need to be addressed off the board, that can be done as well.. simple private messages or email the organizers directly

dave t

Nissan Racer

12-07-2003, 02:04 PM

Actually I was not refering to the origional poster or and direct post on this board, apparantly you misunderstood. My point was that I can't believe anyone would queastion this rule, so far no-one has.

Chris P

12-07-2003, 02:39 PM

so can we run NOS or not? :D

gatherer

12-07-2003, 09:44 PM

I dunno Chris still seems a little hazy there... :p

(just razzing you Wes... if you need any help with anything you know my number)

ice/solo racer

12-07-2003, 09:53 PM

Boy am I ever glad I did a good job of hiding that little sneaky pete bottle!!:D
Its not easy to hide something in a car with no dash etc,but sounds like the effort was worth it as you guys seem so narrow minded:eek: ;) :)

miataboi

12-08-2003, 07:50 AM

...sounds like a bit of a grey area.....

JoeT

12-08-2003, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by Greg F
Hmm, I saw nitrous being allowed in the rules and started thinking about running it. ...seemed like a pretty legit inquiry to me.

Strangely enough, I haven't seen any mention of a PRV on those 'bottles' or anywhere in the pressure circuit. It seems the only safety is through keeping the bottle cool.

And I'm not totally convinced all that damage was from the nitrous bottle.

Hey Greg,

I remember that whole story. It was from the nitrous bottle. They guy had a bottle warmer that was left on, mistakenly or otherwise. He was trying to sue the bottle manufacturer because the pressure release valve never released the excess pressure and "Kaboom".

There were other pictures, along with a complete web site to support that single picture, with the complete story from the "owners" perspective.

The bottle went Kaboooooom, taking out the garage door, part of the bricks in the garage, and some of territory above the car. What a mess!!!

Greg F

12-08-2003, 06:06 PM

OK, I believe it now.

BTW, what are you guys 'planning' for next year that's supposed to increase solo 2 enjoyment so much? Is it beer 'n' cars, or chicks 'n' cars, or spliff-shifting autocrossing...?.:p

I'm sure I can help, just let me know what you need...as long as it's legal. :D

finboy

12-08-2003, 06:12 PM

wasn't it a maxima?? :eek:

AlienDNA

12-08-2003, 07:37 PM

Originally posted by Marsh
High pressure bottles have no place on race cars.

Sure they do - I mean, how else would a body get the amusing crowd giggle factor by setting off the fire bottle in their Corolla, for instance?:D

ice/solo racer

12-08-2003, 08:54 PM

Not my proudest moment of 2003 to be sure:( .

You would think that would have been forgotten by now,guess not.:o

(valuable lesson that will not be repeated I promise)

gatherer

12-09-2003, 10:37 AM

Tom it was one of the most memorable moments ... I remember watching that run..... by the way can you still smell the fire Extinguisher stuff? :p

ADAM

12-09-2003, 11:11 AM

hmmm guess we had all take out the fire extinguishers in our cars....since nitrous oxide is about as dangerous as one of those tanks....

having years of experiance with nitrous oxide use ..both during lapping and street use...i can say 100% that anyone would be hard presed to be able to tell that a car is using it VS the car just having a larger NA motor..with the new computer controlled nitrous controllers it is VERY safe and VERY tunable....it 100% is a viable power adder and would be great for the small solo 2 courses IMO...

it is just an oxidizer!!!! thats it...nothing dangerous about it....as with ALL things....if it is installed correctly and tuned correctly....IT WORKS CORRECTLY...

Originally posted by Marsh
There is a very good reason that the drag strip requires you label the N2O bottle location for safety workers. High pressure bottles have no place on race cars. Never mind the fact that it is useless in a solo-2. I can't think of any reason why anyone on this board would even bring it up other than to stir up sh!t.

haniforama

12-09-2003, 11:23 AM

Just like A before O when welding...

When using N2O, remember to add fuel first, and lots of it...

Hanif

ADAM

12-09-2003, 11:32 AM

the real problem stems from "duffuss" internet urban legends...like that NOS bottle exploding.....

well no shit...leave a bottle heater on...and its gonna heat it up...and eventually gonna pop the blow off valve.....

it would be like leaving a propane heater blowing hot air onto a large acetelyne tank..and then wonder why it blew your house up.....

as with anything...things CAN go wrong....but with rules in place they can be mitigated.....

how come DRAG RACING seems to be able to use nitrous oxide without issues and people dying left and right if its so dangerous?

IF i was REALLY worried about people safety in solo 1 and solo 2....i would 100% be more worried about a flywheel letting go.....

DO WE MANDATE SCATTER SHIELDS ....NOPE.....drive train loop holders...NOPE....

so much for being "safe"

and with all these extremely high revving lawnmower engines that are out there...is it a DANGER....hell yes...i would be more worried about the flywheel cutting my legs off in a honda...than the nitrous causing any issues....

IMO

miataboi

12-09-2003, 11:59 AM

Originally posted by ADAM
the real problem stems from "duffuss" internet urban legends...like that NOS bottle exploding.....

well no shit...leave a bottle heater on...and its gonna heat it up...and eventually gonna pop the blow off valve.....

it would be like leaving a propane heater blowing hot air onto a large acetelyne tank..and then wonder why it blew your house up.....

as with anything...things CAN go wrong....but with rules in place they can be mitigated.....

how come DRAG RACING seems to be able to use nitrous oxide without issues and people dying left and right if its so dangerous?

IF i was REALLY worried about people safety in solo 1 and solo 2....i would 100% be more worried about a flywheel letting go.....

DO WE MANDATE SCATTER SHIELDS ....NOPE.....drive train loop holders...NOPE....

so much for being "safe"

and with all these extremely high revving lawnmower engines that are out there...is it a DANGER....hell yes...i would be more worried about the flywheel cutting my legs off in a honda...than the nitrous causing any issues....

IMO

Thanks for posting this Adam... it should really help .................................... in the future.
:rolleyes:

haniforama

12-09-2003, 12:03 PM

Haha - i've presonally been involved in flywheel burst testing and can safely say that the smaller diameter flywheels of the "lawnmover" engines allow them to be spun upwards of 15000-16000rpms before stress cracks manifest themselves - above that - watch out :)

You are much more likely to destroy a clutch disc than the flywheel. If you were to somehow shove the shifter into first gear while travelling at 150kph, the input shaft on the tranny (which is splined to the clutch disc), would spin up to around 20000rpm (in my car anyway). - BYE BYE clutch disc. If you were stupid enough to dump the clutch (assuming it is still intact), the engine's inertia would probably sufficiently prevent it from ever reaching in excess of 15000rpms. Your valves though would be toast - no doubt about it.

But yes Adam - N2O can be done safely. However with the majority of people unaware of the correct usage, it's unlikely to become part of the sport. It'll make it that much difficult to explain to the authorites that we allow N2O usage (being that SOLO1 is specifically marketed as "taking it to the track") when it is not allowed on the street.

Hanif

TYSON

12-09-2003, 12:19 PM

Originally posted by ADAM
hmmm guess we had all take out the fire extinguishers in our cars....since nitrous oxide is about as dangerous as one of those tanks....

The extinguisher going in my car says it's at 195psi. Nitrous is stored at 900 psi minimum. You're right, I can barely tell the difference. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by ADAM
having years of experiance with nitrous oxide use ..both during lapping and street use...i can say 100% that anyone would be hard presed to be able to tell that a car is using it VS the car just having a larger NA motor..with the new computer controlled nitrous controllers it is VERY safe and VERY tunable....it 100% is a viable power adder and would be great for the small solo 2 courses IMO...

it is just an oxidizer!!!! thats it...nothing dangerous about it....as with ALL things....if it is installed correctly and tuned correctly....IT WORKS CORRECTLY...

Q. What is nitrous backfire?
A. Nitrous backfires can be caused by two situations. 1. A nitrous system that is two rich or a system that atomizes the fuel poorly, thus causing pooling or puddling of fuel in the intake manifold. 2. A system that is operated too lean.

Maybe you should call these amateurs and lend them your "years of experience".:rolleyes:

http://www.draglist.com/photoimages/POD-0303/Steve%20Penrod's%20Chevelle%20suffers%20a%20massive%20nitrous%20backfire%20at%20Byron.%20Photo%20by% 20Pete%20Ores.jpg
http://www.draglist.com/photoimages/POD-0301/Charles%20Carpenter%20with%20one%20of%20the%20earliest%20nitrous%20backfires%20in%20history%20--%201990!%20Photo%20by%20Mark%20Hovsepian.jpg
http://www.draglist.com/photoimages/Photos-2000/Outer%20Limits%20Explosion%205-17-00%20%20by%20Greg%20Gage.jpg
http://www.nescaracing.com/414Q8/E9.jpg

I've never met anyone who was an expert at everything before. It feels creepy...

finboy

12-09-2003, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by miataboi
Thanks for posting this Adam... it should really help us get insurance coverage in the future.
:rolleyes:

next time PM him vs replying to the tread :mad:

ADAM

12-09-2003, 02:50 PM

a nitrous backfire is due to people being CHEAP and by installing throttle body/air intake fogger type systems, INSTEAD of a properly designed and tuned direct port system...

if something is not used correctly....it does not work correctly.....

what does operating LEAN have to do with a nitrous back fire?

ok...well let me take a large heater and heat up the fire extinguisher tank...and also heat a nitrous tank up..and when they both blow up...you tell me which one hurts more..the NOS or the fire extinguisher.....

Originally posted by TYSON
The extinguisher going in my car says it's at 195psi. Nitrous is stored at 900 psi minimum. You're right, I can barely tell the difference. :rolleyes:

Q. What is nitrous backfire?
A. Nitrous backfires can be caused by two situations. 1. A nitrous system that is two rich or a system that atomizes the fuel poorly, thus causing pooling or puddling of fuel in the intake manifold. 2. A system that is operated too lean.

Maybe you should call these amateurs and lend them your "years of experience".:rolleyes:

http://www.draglist.com/photoimages/POD-0303/Steve%20Penrod's%20Chevelle%20suffers%20a%20massive%20nitrous%20backfire%20at%20Byron.%20Photo%20by% 20Pete%20Ores.jpg
http://www.draglist.com/photoimages/POD-0301/Charles%20Carpenter%20with%20one%20of%20the%20earliest%20nitrous%20backfires%20in%20history%20--%201990!%20Photo%20by%20Mark%20Hovsepian.jpg
http://www.draglist.com/photoimages/Photos-2000/Outer%20Limits%20Explosion%205-17-00%20%20by%20Greg%20Gage.jpg
http://www.nescaracing.com/414Q8/E9.jpg

I've never met anyone who was an expert at everything before. It feels creepy...

ADAM

12-09-2003, 02:55 PM

i finally looked at your pictures....and IF you knew anything about nitrous systems you would KNOW they are all using LARGE multi fogger PLATE systems....

are we going to be seeing PLATE system out in SOLO 2....are we going to be seeing PLATE systems with carbs in solo 2......

NO....

am i saying that if nitrous was allowed in solo 2...RULES would not be established....NO

quite a few NEW rules would have to be written and enforced for the safe operation of nitrous oxide IF it was going to be used in solo 2

Originally posted by TYSON
The extinguisher going in my car says it's at 195psi. Nitrous is stored at 900 psi minimum. You're right, I can barely tell the difference. :rolleyes:

Q. What is nitrous backfire?
A. Nitrous backfires can be caused by two situations. 1. A nitrous system that is two rich or a system that atomizes the fuel poorly, thus causing pooling or puddling of fuel in the intake manifold. 2. A system that is operated too lean.

Maybe you should call these amateurs and lend them your "years of experience".:rolleyes:

http://www.draglist.com/photoimages/POD-0303/Steve%20Penrod's%20Chevelle%20suffers%20a%20massive%20nitrous%20backfire%20at%20Byron.%20Photo%20by% 20Pete%20Ores.jpg
http://www.draglist.com/photoimages/POD-0301/Charles%20Carpenter%20with%20one%20of%20the%20earliest%20nitrous%20backfires%20in%20history%20--%201990!%20Photo%20by%20Mark%20Hovsepian.jpg
http://www.draglist.com/photoimages/Photos-2000/Outer%20Limits%20Explosion%205-17-00%20%20by%20Greg%20Gage.jpg
http://www.nescaracing.com/414Q8/E9.jpg

I've never met anyone who was an expert at everything before. It feels creepy...

ADAM

12-09-2003, 03:07 PM

hi hanif,
do we mandate flywheel replacements? or a time frame for replacement? nope......do we inspect them....nope....do they shatter yep...

my point was that Nitrous IMO is low on the scale of dangerous things to go wrong in a car...

Originally posted by haniforama
Haha - i've presonally been involved in flywheel burst testing and can safely say that the smaller diameter flywheels of the "lawnmover" engines allow them to be spun upwards of 15000-16000rpms before stress cracks manifest themselves - above that - watch out :)

You are much more likely to destroy a clutch disc than the flywheel. If you were to somehow shove the shifter into first gear while travelling at 150kph, the input shaft on the tranny (which is splined to the clutch disc), would spin up to around 20000rpm (in my car anyway). - BYE BYE clutch disc. If you were stupid enough to dump the clutch (assuming it is still intact), the engine's inertia would probably sufficiently prevent it from ever reaching in excess of 15000rpms. Your valves though would be toast - no doubt about it.

But yes Adam - N2O can be done safely. However with the majority of people unaware of the correct usage, it's unlikely to become part of the sport. It'll make it that much difficult to explain to the authorites that we allow N2O usage (being that SOLO1 is specifically marketed as "taking it to the track") when it is not allowed on the street.

Hanif

ADAM

12-09-2003, 03:14 PM

cool pictures though......here is a another good one.....

maybe we should ban brake cleaner from solo 2 and one as well...from this picture it seems brake cleaner if used improperly can also be dangerous :)

(ps i am just torturing you either way nitrous or no nitrous i really don't care if solo 2 uses it or not :) my point is that anything used improperly tends to cause problems )

http://www.turbo240sx.ca/firering.jpg

Originally posted by ADAM
i finally looked at your pictures....and IF you knew anything about nitrous systems you would KNOW they are all using LARGE multi fogger PLATE systems....

are we going to be seeing PLATE system out in SOLO 2....are we going to be seeing PLATE systems with carbs in solo 2......

NO....

am i saying that if nitrous was allowed in solo 2...RULES would not be established....NO

quite a few NEW rules would have to be written and enforced for the safe operation of nitrous oxide IF it was going to be used in solo 2 http://www.turbo240sx.ca/firering.jpg

TYSON

12-09-2003, 03:17 PM

The Q and A quote is from HERE (http://www.nitrousexpress.com/welcome.htm)

Maybe you should be schooling them too...

You mean this guy is lying too? Glidden / Edelbrock nozzles (http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/new2003/new_nitrous2.html)
Glidden nitrous backfire (http://www.50mustangandsuperfords.com/eventcoverage/88198/index3.html#)

Crazy bastages!!

No one will ever use nitrous incorrectly at a SOLO II event.:rolleyes: Because everyone who puts NAAWWWS on their car has years of experience.

ADAM

12-09-2003, 03:24 PM

maybe we should not confuse sub 200 shot systems with plate drag systems :)

TYSON

12-09-2003, 03:37 PM

Sheesh, I only used those examples because you claim you have to be an idiot to have problems.:rolleyes:

Why don't you troll through some Mustang and Honda boards to see how many people have melted filters, blown up throttle bodies and blown holes in intake manifolds while trying to add 100hp.:D

I don't care either way. I think it would be an interesting experiment with a TPS controlled system, an experienced competitor and some privacy. But since there doesn't seem to be a real safety inspection at ANY SOLO II events I've been to, I don't think it's something that should be allowed or encouraged. Check out this wonderful installation. Mustang guy at work (http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=371289)

At my only trip to the dragstrip, I was not asked whether I would be running a 10 second pass without a cage, what kind of flywheel I had or if I had a fire system. I was asked if I had nitrous, period.

BTW, the progressive TPS kits seem to be off the market. NOS still lists them, but Jegs and Summit say discontinued.

GR8 Ride

12-09-2003, 03:47 PM

As much as it pains me to do so (just kidding...), I have to agree with Adam on this one.

Nitrous really isn't suited to Solo 1 / 2 activity, but it's no less a valid power-adder than a blower / turbo. Just as many hazardous issues arrive from a poorly built turbo setup as from a poorly installed NOS system.

And as to flywheels exploding (and nobody requiring bell-housings to protect the driver), well, this isn't an uncommon thing for drivers of older Mustangs, particularly with the Borg-Warner T5 tranny. Funny, dragstrips allow NOS, but won't let you run without a bell housing. Solo2 won't let you run with NOS, but doesn't care if a bell-housing is installed or not. Yet you're subjecting the flywheel to as much stress (if not more) than you are in a 12 second drag race.

Pat

ADAM

12-09-2003, 03:49 PM

thats a hilarious post......holy install......
good find on that one.....

i think it would be neat to see as well how a nitrous powered car would do in solo 2....it would really help the car get out of the hole.....thats for sure....

Marsh

12-09-2003, 04:25 PM

Wow Adam, is anyone else ever right when your in the room? It's a good thing we have you to set everyone straight.

ADAM

12-09-2003, 04:43 PM

:)

everyone has an opinion :)

if i am wrong on something....prove it to me..."show me the proof"....i have no qualms about saying i am wrong about a subject .... (to a bouncy tune) i am wrong....i am wrong..i am wrong...i was wrong wrong...wrong.....wrong.....
:)

if everyone just agreed with what was being said all the time....then this would be a pretty quite board ...no.....?
at least some people are willing to debate a subject and at least bring some points good or bad to a debate...

fact is ..i have installed nitrous systems....used nitrous systems...tuned nitrous systems..and have a nitrous system in my own car...

nitrous is fun....
nitrous is good..
nitrous is safe...
nitrous is 100% a valid power adder and a great one at that....

its easy to just say.....

"yeah NOS is dangerous...i know a dude that blew his garage up with it put a hole clear through the house....ohh yeah...i know a dude that blew his hood off....ohh yeah..i know a dude that blew his car up"...ect....ect...ect...blah..blah..blah...the same crud i have been hearing for 10 years about NOS is just getting worse..

nitrous does not do damage..its the people using it that does.....

so please lets not give nitrous a bad name when its not warrented..thats all i am saying...

ADAM

12-09-2003, 04:52 PM

then we get pictures of drag cars with 300+shot plate fogger systems blowing up......yeah so what.....how many blown drag cars go up? how bout turbo cars.....TONS of them.....thats just drag racing stuff breaks all the time...

are turbos dangerous?
blowers?
NOS?
drag racing?
solo 2?
solo 1?

danger lurks everywhere..so why pick on nitrous? just cause its a pressurized tank at 900psi?

what about that good ole 15 gallon fuel tank attached to the car with gasoline in it?...i am WAY more afraid of that than the nitrous tank full of inert gas...

just asking.....

:)

miataboi

12-09-2003, 05:38 PM

Guns are not dangerous... people who use them are...

Can we carry a gun during auto-x???
;)

AlienDNA

12-09-2003, 06:35 PM

Originally posted by miataboi
Can we carry a gun during auto-x???
;)

Now that would be cool.

I was thinking about putting a gun rack in the Miata. Maybe a big set o' Boss Hogg steer horns on the front. 'Course, that'd probably count as a panel modifaction and put me in Modified or something.:eek:

TYSON

12-09-2003, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by ADAM
then we get pictures of drag cars with 300+shot plate fogger systems blowing up......yeah so what.....how many blown drag cars go up? how bout turbo cars.....TONS of them.....thats just drag racing stuff breaks all the time...

As I've already said, I used those examples to refute your claim that only beginners and idiots have problems with nitrous systems.

Clearly you did not read most of it, as the example with Billy Glidden shows he is using your foolproof multi-port setup and still has backfires. I am sure he has no idea what he's doing though:rolleyes: He must not have had you install it for him or something.

Safety reasons aside, arguments for or against nitrous can be the same as any "fuel". Methanol isn't allowed, why not? Is nitromethane?

Safetywise, I worry more about every Joe Schmoe being allowed to throw his 20lb propane tank from the barbecue in the back of the truck to bounce around when he needs a refill.:eek:

We already see a lot of complaints on this board about our image with the public and police. While nitrous is not illegal, no matter what the police tell you, NAAWWS tanks, (2 of the big ones:D ) still carry a stigma. I'd rather the "offenders" said they were on the way to the dragstip instead to the autocross when the police have them spread eagled on the street.:)

TYSON

12-09-2003, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by miataboi
Guns are not dangerous... people who use them are...

Can we carry a gun during auto-x???
;)

Do we play by Smokey Yunick rules?!?:p

"If it ain't in the rulebook it ain't illegal!"

I hope so. There's lots of good stuff missing;)

Marsh

12-09-2003, 10:26 PM

Originally posted by TYSON
Do we play by Smokey Yunick rules?!?:p

"If it ain't in the rulebook it ain't illegal!"

I hope so. There's lots of good stuff missing;)

Actually the new rules book specifically states 'If it ain't in the rule book it IS illegal.'

TYSON

12-09-2003, 10:29 PM

Dammit!!:mad: I think you told me that once before.

Where's my SOLO I book?:)

EDIT: I just looked at the CNAC rules. Are you sure that doesn't just apply to S/SS/SP classes? The way it's positioned is a little confusing.

finboy

12-19-2003, 03:17 PM

one of my friends found the site..

check it out

http://www.healthyhome.net/nitrousexpress.htm

ADAM

12-19-2003, 03:35 PM

IMO its the guys own fault....it should have been wired to a switched power source....

ADAM

12-22-2003, 09:13 AM

could anyone actually imagine a "pissing match"

2 guys lined up opposed to each other...letting each other have it

:)

maybe there is already underground pissing match compititions

"ultimate pissing match 2004"
no holds barred

:)

Suzie

12-22-2003, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by ADAM
could anyone actually imagine a "pissing match"

2 guys lined up opposed to each other...letting each other have it

:)

maybe there is already underground pissing match compititions

"ultimate pissing match 2004"
no holds barred

:)

How does one class competitors for this competition?

Suzie

haniforama

12-22-2003, 12:27 PM

displacement?

Greg F

12-22-2003, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by Suzie
How does one class competitors for this competition?

Suzie

You seem very interested in this, Suzie. Are you volunteering to do tech inspection?:D :DDoes this colour match your face now? Heh heh heh.

Suzie

12-22-2003, 12:56 PM

Now THAT'S a way to turn off new competitors! :p

Suzie

Lowerit

12-27-2003, 04:37 PM

Wow... some of you really need to stop watching the fast and furious...

I have been running nitrous on my car for around 2 years now... no problems at all. I run a single fogger 75 shot..my new motor will eventually run a 100 shot direct port setup. I don't see the big deal if I want to autocross my car with the bottle disconnected.

Any time you see some moron on the net who has blown up his car due to nitorus 99% of the time they have used a homemade bottle heater that doesn't shut off due to pressure or temperature. They leave the bottle closed and leave the heater on ..we all know what happens when a gas gets hot ..it expands. Most of these carses are quite rare and isolated.

Somkey Yunick (sp?) started spraying in the 1940's when he filled the roll cages in his cars with Nitrous.

Some of you whine about nitrous on cars , but I was at quite a few events this summer where the cars weren't even tec'd ..

good job keepin the streets safe.. Nitrous is really dangerous...bad ball joints , loose wheels...no thats ok.

Some of you sound more like politicians than anything else...

Oh well , can't penalize what ya can't see!

JM

tanney

12-27-2003, 06:10 PM

finboy

12-27-2003, 06:35 PM

Wes man...

you didn't even need to reply

tanney

12-27-2003, 06:54 PM

Yes, I know..... but remember, "Some of you sound more like politicians than anything else...", I am a politican now and I just had to say something.

Is NOS not illegal for use on the streets in Ontario? Even if it's not, why would anyone want to use NOS on the street.... unless you watch too much fast and furious....

Marsh

12-27-2003, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by Lowerit

Oh well , can't penalize what ya can't see!

JM

No, but after this post you can be certain that your car will gone over with a fine tooth comb at every event you show up at. And a tech inspection is like revenue Canada. If we want to find something wrong, we will.

Lowerit

12-27-2003, 09:18 PM

Geez...touchy touchy...

My main point was that people get all up in arms about something they don't know much about. Nitrous (NOS is a brand name) is not an A-bomb in a car. When installed properly and used in a controlled enviroment it's perfectly safe.. this is a well proven fact.

For years Solo 2 has been trying to increase participation , many of the cars seen today are dual purpose. My car sees autocrosses , tracks and dragstrips. Yes I have nitrous , please don't be stereotypical and categorize me into a lump of morons who go spraying on the street.... becasue it doesn't happen.

My comment about penalizing what you can't see was simply made to prove a point. numerous pages go into a post about Nitrous , something that a fraction of the cars participating have , yet at every event I attended last year my car wasn't tech'd once..you want to worry about safety..Start there. I don't plan on spraying on a an autocross course, it's not this massive uncontrollable rush of power espically when your not running a huge shot.

You wanna tech my cars go nuts.. I have been autocrossing for the better part of a decade in both Canada and the US... knock yourself out. Threats are pretty childish , but whatever floats your boat. You may want to start prioritizing your safety issues.. Nitrous shouldn't be at the top of the list.

I see a few links to pictures of cars that have nitrous mishaps... rather improper installations.. yet no links about mishaps when it comes to spectators or unsafe cars being allowed to run.

Sorry to cause such a ruckus.. I wasn't trying to piss anyone off
JM

tanney

12-29-2003, 07:15 AM

My main point was that people get all up in arms about something they don't know much about. Sorry, but my main point is NOS is not allowed in Solo 2 in Ontario.

You can talk about how idiots handle it incorrectly, but what if one of those idiots show up at a Solo 2 event, something happens to their system (because they are idiots) and someone gets hurt........ I am not saying that everyone (yourself included) that runs NOS (yes it's a brand name, but it's easier to type) is an idiot..........but like everything, some are.

It's not allowed, in the next two years, it will not be considered to be allowed.

Hide it if you want, but, our region's competitors are extremely nice people and sometimes not overly agressive (in person) towards "cheaters", but we are not stupid. We may not say things, but we usually notice things......

Lowerit

12-29-2003, 09:53 AM

The system I have was hidden from day one , and I have no problem taking out the bottle for an event. I can see your point about the concrn of improper installations at autocrosses, and agree with you 100%.

JM

Steve-O

01-05-2004, 04:46 AM

i agree that nitrous belongs in drag racing because i think it's the type of environment it's best suited for...flat out for short bursts of time then stopping. even before i read through all five of these pages, seeing this topic immediately brought to mind:

"Okay, so a SOLO driver already has to think about when and where to shift, brake and gas at every turn and straight in the course for each lap. Now they'd have the added task of turning a nitrous system on and off at the right time so they can utilize the power at the right moment without blowing up their motor???"

Even if it's set-up to automatically come on and off at set points of acceleration and braking, i'm sorry guys but the idea of nitrous at any SOLO race (especially a really tight course layout) sounds more useless and/or cumbersome to me.

But that's just my newbie $0.02 worth.

exST165

01-05-2004, 09:33 PM

While I thought that modern NOS systems activated (when armed) only at WOT above a minimum RPM, I have never driven one so I have no clue what sort of kick in the pants it is like when it comes on compared to VTEC cross-over or turbo lag much less how abrupt it cuts out when you get off the throttle.

All of which begs the question as to why it is in the 2003 CNAC rules! Does anyone actualy know? Are competitors out there running NOS at the nationals or did the CNAC just forget that it was in there?

Just wondering ...

gatherer

01-06-2004, 08:34 AM

AFAIK at the nationals I didn't see any bottles of NO2 around. maybe it being included was just an oversight?

ADAM

01-06-2004, 09:06 AM

burn the NOS users...they are the devils work..it is black unholy magic they use against us.... :)

guess you guys have no clue how MODERN nitrous oxide systems operate OR drive.... which boggles me how you can be "against" something that you don't know about or even have tried???????

i will state this now.... 100% these systems could be used in road racing and in solo 2...

100% you would be hard pressed to even tell a car has nitrous vs it just having a much larger engine when activated....

modern computer controlled nitrous systems operate this way.....

they are controlled via a nitrous control system that basically removes all the harmfull effects AND tuning difficulties from nitrous.....

nitrous is only activated at WOT...once WOT is reached it triggers a switch which tells the computer the driver wants to go fast (hence being at WOT)

upon this switch being activated the computer automatically starts to retard the ignition ...for a 75 shot you need about 2-4 deg retard pulled into the ignition for best results....then the computer controls on the NOS start RPM...and the NOS full RPM....meaning you set the computer at what rpm you want the nitrous system to come on.....and at what rpm you want the nitrous to come on full...what this allows you to do is is basically have a "soft start" AND spray nitrous at VERY low RPM levels.... IE 2000rpm....

so you can set the car up like the following

nos start 2000rpm 50% (37hp gain)
3000rpm.....60%
4000rpm ...70%
5000rpm ...80%
6000rpm...100% (75hpgain)

or whatever your heart or driving situation desires..it is 100% variable..

next the computer has its own rev limiter built into the system.....what you do is set this rev limiter about 100rpm below the factory OEM rev limiter..this prevents the engine from overrevving in case a shift is missed..or tires spin....

these new systems are called proportional nitrous control systems...as they control the onset and GAIN of the nitrous injection....

i repeat...it is not just a switch that you throw..and hope for the best....

with that in mind you CAN set the system to come on 100%...and nitrous does hit hard IF thats what you want....

IMO nitrous is VERY well suited for solo 2..as they are small courses where getting out of the hole is important and powering out of the corners...

for road racing a large tank would be needed ...as even on a small 75 shot like i use in my car ...a 10lb bottle only lasts 2min 30 sec of constant spraying..

i used about 15 10lb bottles over 3 years on a BONE STOCK motor...no ill effects AT ALL..when the motor was torn down NO wear was shown due to nitrous

on the dyno went from 143rwhp and 132ftlbs to 204rwhp and 198ftlbs using this system...

comments or questions are welcome

tanney

01-06-2004, 09:12 AM

guess you guys have no clue how MODERN nitrous oxide systems operate OR drive.... which boggles me how you can be "against" something that you don't know about or even have tried???????
It doesn't really matter... nitrous oxide is NOT ALLOWED IN SOLO 2 IN ONTARIO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

holy f&%$, drop it!

njansenv

01-06-2004, 10:59 AM

Makes sense to me. While I've seen N2O successfully used on the track (One Lap of America saw quite a bit of Nitrous use this year), we've all seen some of the cars that show at these events. Many are driven by real racers (you know, the ones with non-18" rims;)), but the occasional newbie shows with relatively no knowledge of proper tech. WAY to many of these people run Nitrous improperly. I don't want THOSE guys running N2O. It simply gets too complicated to try and discern what guys can safely run Nitrous, and what guys can't.

Nate