re: revision of back up points

[ADAM]

what does everyone think of this....

since backup times are VERY important to the overall winning of solo 1..... a pax should be implimented that is inverse to the speed....

reasoning.....
ever realise that the FASTER cars go..it becomes more and more difficult to drive those cars.....YET the faster cars must compete on an EVEN footing against the back up times of MUCH slower vehicles....

basically its alot easier to judge and pick turn in points, braking points, and apex..at 50kph...vs 150kph

does that make sense?

[Shaman]

It does to me, I know where you are coming from.

[Dave]

I dunno Adam. I was just as consistent if not more so in my Civic when it had the bigger engine in it as I was this year with a stock engine. In fact, I won several pole positions awards last year and I didn't win any this year. So based on my own experience with fast/slow cars I'd have to say I'm not convince your logic is valid.

That being said, for the "average" driver I agree it is more difficult to turn consistent laps in a faster car than a slower one. But for a skilled driver I don't think it matters much. Look at Tony McGrath, for example. He won the overall in a wide variety of cars including a high horsepower Camaro, a low horsepower Nissan NX, and medium horsepower ITR.

The other thing you've got to keep in mind is car prep skill. Guys like Tony are experts at developing a really nicely balanced package that allows them to turn consistent lap times.

With a properly prepped car, I think it all boils down to the driver when it comes to consistency.

[ADAM]

i think of it this way.....since in solo 1 all the cars are competing against each other across the board.....lets say we have a slower car that takes say 60seconds to do a lap..and we have a faster car that takes 50seconds to do a lap.....

what you are saying is that..the extra 10 seconds the slower car has....has no bearing on being able to repeat lap after lap the same times.....?

lets take the idea further......

lets say you had a stone bridge..with 3 exactly same sized cars....this bridge allows for 4 inches clearance on both sides of the car.....would you rather

a=drive under the bridge at 30mph..
b=drive under the bridge at 60mph...
c=drive under the bridge at 100mph..

second part to the question.....

how many times consistantly would you like to drive under the bridge at "a" speed and "b" speed "c" speed....

[ADAM]

if speed had no bearing on racing or the skill of the racer then we could all be in a series of zambonies on the track :)

the fact is...when you speed things up humans make more mistakes...thus are less consistant in thier actions....

here is another one....

lets say you had a gun....and you had to hit a target...

would you rather

a= shoot the gun walking slowing
b=shoot the gun running like a mad man

i don't think my point is off the wall or anything...it seems quite logical too me..

[ADAM]

he he...
ever play space invaders when it speeds up later in the game?

alot harder than when the game first starts...

:)

just stirring that big ladle of mine...

[haniforama]

Dood - run NA. You'll have the same power lap after lap...

That should help consistency :D

[Shaman]

Try running consistent lap times in any of the ASP cars. If all you've driven is a Civic - even with a bigger motor - well, you don't have a proper frame of reference. I've been there... when you hit over 200km/h going into turn 3 on the Pro at Shannonville, you've arrived. Miscue just a fraction of a second and it might make a difference of 50 feet.

[John P]

Sure you have to react faster in a faster car, but you have a much better car to help you. Also, you have much more skill.

Many slower cars are very difficult to drive because of their poor suspension, tires, brakes, lack of LSD, body lean, poor seats, etc.

The higher class cars are closer to race cars, so are easier to drive in the environment they have been designed for.

The Solo 1 champions in the past ten years have all been from the middle or higher speed classes.

Adam, you are good enough to win the championship, if you enter all 11 events (to maximize your points) and your car doesn't break.

If you doubt this, let me drive your car next year to show you that it can be done.

[Dave]

Steve, what's so special about an ASP car (under the old system of classification)? I ran faster than Gord Allcock's 500whp C5 Corvette on Pro and Nelson last year with a 185whp 1.6L engine. How did I do that? Cornering speeds I guess. Miscue just a bit mid-corner and you're in the weeds in my car just as fast as most ASP cars. Sure you're hitting big numbers in a straight line and that makes judging your braking more difficult, but I'm hitting big numbers mid-corner and that can be just as tough to judge. It's apples and oranges, but it still comes down to driver judgement if your goal is to be consitent in either car.

John makes some really good points about stock/slower cars having less precise suspensions, weaker brakes, higher roll centers, etc., all of which could in theory make them more difficult to turn consistent lap times in.

Anyway, IMOHO there's a lot more to consistency than top speeds at the end of the Fabi straight or peak horsepower numbers. Turning consistent lap times is all about driver judgement and driver understanding of his/her car and it's abilities and limits.

But hey, what do I know...my car is slow :)

[Dave Barker]

I also received 2 pole position awards in 2002 and none last year. ( Damn CCC and the linear system). OTOH the competition in my class was excellant and most of the time many of us were on the limit ( which means 11/10ths to a certain BMW driver and likely 9.5/10ths to the rest of us). The net effect though of tough competition is that consistancy is sometimes thrown out the window as you would do anything to get that last few hundreds which may lead to a bit of experimenting during your 12 laps.

[Dave]

agreed Dr. Dave, tough in-class competition makes it a lot harder to focus on consistency and achieving the high back-up scores needed to win the overall. Dunno if this feat has ever truly been accomplished, though I would imagine one of Tony's many titles may have come out of a tough class. I seem to recall stories of him (in a Camaro) and Eric fighting it out in A/SP back in the mid 90's. Maybe one of you elder statesmen can dig up an example or two :)

[John P]

Maybe the overall champion should be based on the best 6 of 11, with the toughest competition and a tie breaker being the most consistent. Jeff Graves and I had tougher competition than Chris. We were playing with everything possible(within the rules) to win our classes, while Chris was focussing on consistency. Jeff and I were both very lucky to do as well as we did.

What do you guys think?

[James Mewett]

Dr Dave Wrote:

The net effect though of tough competition is that consistancy is sometimes thrown out the window as you would do anything to get that last few hundreds which may lead to a bit of experimenting during your 12 laps.

Can someone elaborate on how the backup is calculated?

How about considering using fewer laps to calculate the backup? If say only the fastest three laps were used it would reward both consistency and outright speed, while allowing a few more laps to be thrown away in the quest for 11/10ths.

James

[ADAM]

i am just bringing this up since we are trying greatly through the new rules to level the playing field of all the cars so that they can compete fairly in the classes they are in....

BUT

in reality the back up times are the sole determining factor to who will win the series....and in my mind (the strange little mind it is) it does not seem to make sense that the back up times have the same VALUE across the whole field of cars...it just seems intuitive that the faster the cars go the harder it is to place the cars on specific points on the track....thus it becomes harder to get high backup points?

[Taylor]

John: You're right. Consistency deciding overall is a little weak since conditions (environmental and competition wise) vary. But how else do you do it short of a spec car at the last event or something?!

[Shaman]

FYI, I chose an ASP car since they are relatively mildly modified production cars. P.S. a high powered Z06 can be driven harder than that... take a gander back a couple of years and look at Fred Perez' times.

[James Mewett]

It is a little much to expect that every car should be able to win everything - FTD, Pole and overall. Lets face it, each competitor has their own goals and their own realistic possibilities. If you really want to win everything, bring the ultimate vehicle at the optimum level of prep with the best driver. If that's not you (and it isn't most of us) then find a more realistic goal. For all the wonderful things the Linear System is - it is not equivalent to a Spec series.

[ADAM]

there is no "everything" only overall champion

[John P]

Adam, maybe we need an driver's age premium? As we get older, our reactions get slower, we can't see as far down the track, we get conservative and take less chances, we brake when we shouldn't. I vote that for the overall championship we give the older guys a chance to win overall.

Age - 30-39 - Count the most consistent time twice for overall.
40-49 - Count the most consistent time three times for overall.
50-59 - Count the most consistent time four times for overall.
60-69 - Count the most consistent time five times for overall.
70 and above - Count the most consistent time six times for overall.

The important aspect of this is is that to be counted for overall, the driver must have six wins first, irrelevant of his age.

Now that I have your attention;

A faster car is better prepared and easier to drive fast, than a slower car. Also the driver of a faster car is quite often more experienced, so should be able to react more precisely.

I didn't hear anything from you Adam, but I challenged you above to lend me your car for the 2004 and I will prove to you that it can win overall (even though there is a significant age difference between us).

I propose that we leave the overall scoring alone, or if we want to improve it, we build in some sort of factor in for how tough the competition is in a particular class.

[ADAM]

he he.....
i know that my car "could" win even with me behind the wheel i had some pretty high back up points (when the car could actually make it around the track 6 laps) on all the events that the car went around more than 6 laps...however when it did not it really tends to kill the back up points....i had a 72 and i think even a 34...even though the car won the "class" those events...when a car breaks or limps a few laps it kills the backup score..

forget me and my car....its a work in progress :)

my point is.....how many z06's or high powered cars have a chance to win the overall?

[haniforama]

All i hear here is a bunch of cry-babies...

Waaaaah, Waaaaah.

I'm too old, i'm too fast, i'm too slow, i'm too this, i'm too that...

Get in your car, strap on a helmet and drive the wheels off of it.

Simple.

Hanif

[Shaman]

Heh, yep. I've never been too concerned about winning a championship in Solo 1. I go because I usually enjoy myself. Adam has a point, though I'm not sure that it'll go anywhere.

[rainman]

I can't agree at all about what Adam proposes. Sure you may be attacking corners at a higher rate of speed, necessitating good judgement and reflexes, but that is only one part of the track puzzle. The slower cars can be more of a handful to control under braking or cornering, necessitating other driving skills.

Additionally, I had the opportunity towards the end of the season to step inside a BFRA F2000 car after an absence of 10 years. Those cars are quicker than anything else you'll find at a Solo 1 event (except perhaps for the karts :confused: ) and I still managed to turn laps all within .3 seconds of each other. Not bad considering I was effectively unfamiliar with the car's handling after so many years.

Track speed really doesn't determine how consistent one is, more how you put the pieces of the puzzle together, corner by corner, straight by straight, braking zone by braking zone.

now don't make Baby Krispy cry! He was jsut put to bed after his feeding :p

[Dave]

LOL Hanif :p You know Adam is all about stirring the pot.

I think a Z06 with a full class every event would have a VERY good chance at winning the overall. This is a very well balanced car that should be able to easily turn consistent back-up times and be very reliable in the process. If someone wants to give me a Z06, I will try to prove this to Adam :cool:

[Chris P]

hmmmm, an interesting idea adam. Decide overall points baised on PAX. Everyone is ranked 1-XX and then allocate points. Makes sense.

I remember Tony always wanted to decide the overall with a shootout......could work.

anyway,
In some respect i do buy your argument that faster cars are harder to be more consistent in. Then again, does anybody know what the most consistent race cars on the planet are??? F1 cars.... Think about it for a while.

I suggust you try some computer racing simulators out. Real no, but they do give prospective on alot of issues. car setup, consistency, skill, etc etc etc. They do have a value!

Currently i'm racing ETCC(European Touring Cars) with EA's F1C and the cars are pretty slow as far as computer racing sims are concerned. Its easy to go fast with these cars but very hard to get the last 9 or 10/10's out of them.
Now lets switch to a F1 car. Very very hard to drive above 7 tenths, there is just so much potiential in the car its hard to extract. Once adapted to the car and enviroment i can run just as consistent in the F1 car as the ETCC car even though the F1 car is alot harder to drive. Try preparing and driving a F1 car to run within 2-3 secounds(consider fuel and tire wear) a lap for 70 lap race, not a easy accomplishment but it can be done. Its just adapting to the situation.


as for mechanical failures, lets see, i had the wheel bearing at the first event, 95 points. Electrical problems at mosport, 35 points, and 96 points at cayuaga.....that might have actually been poor luck with rain.
Didn't Jeff G have a header break and take him out of comp. at cayuga? Dave had that rad thing and i'm sure a bunch of other stuff i don't want to think about. :)

Reliability probs are everywhere :eek:



PS, for myself, i find that if i hold back it really hurts my consistency. How much do you hold back? did i break here? or here? last lap. Should i do this or that........
Atleast for myself consistency comes from pushing the car and myself to its limits. In theory, their is a optimal line, brakeing piont, gas application, etc etc around a race track. The car can only be driven so fast. To be consistent you need to be at this optimal point.
Now ofcourse, PRO F1 driver could make it go faster, why? he's better at seeing the optimal point. simple

[Chris P]

So, Does the monkey make the car, or does the car make the monkey.

[ADAM]

well 0.3sec would have got you smoked....in 3 of the last DDT track solo 1 events the winning back up %'s were as follows..

99.741%
99.588%
99.536%

so basically you could only vary at WORST less than 0.5% in your driving

and the real problem is...the FASTER you go..the higher PECENTAGE that little "bobble" in driving costs you....and the more chance of going off as well IMO

lets take car 1...with taking 80sec a lap....

lets take car 2 with 60sec a lap...

they both DROP a tire off the track..and take 1 second to recover....

1 second is only 1.25 % of car #1
but

1 second is 1.66% for car 2.....

or is my math wrong and i am on one of my tangents here?


Originally posted by rainman
I can't agree at all about what Adam proposes. Sure you may be attacking corners at a higher rate of speed, necessitating good judgement and reflexes, but that is only one part of the track puzzle. The slower cars can be more of a handful to control under braking or cornering, necessitating other driving skills.

Additionally, I had the opportunity towards the end of the season to step inside a BFRA F2000 car after an absence of 10 years. Those cars are quicker than anything else you'll find at a Solo 1 event (except perhaps for the karts :confused: ) and I still managed to turn laps all within .3 seconds of each other. Not bad considering I was effectively unfamiliar with the car's handling after so many years.

Track speed really doesn't determine how consistent one is, more how you put the pieces of the puzzle together, corner by corner, straight by straight, braking zone by braking zone.

now don't make Baby Krispy cry! He was jsut put to bed after his feeding :p

[ADAM]

here are 3 of the solo 1 top drivers reports for the DDT (that you had your f2000 on) ..a very small technical track...you will see it is mostly lower powered "non supercars" that dominate the better pecentages of backup times....

i think what i am trying to get at...is somewhere the intuitive sense that these backup times represent somewhere break down and don't seem to make sense of what they are trying to represent


1 Chris Paczynski HADA 87 Honda CRX DX Hankook 72.263 ( 99.741) 100.000
2 James Mewett PMSC 89 Mazda RX-7 Turbo II Kumho 70.377 ( 99.484) 100.000
3 David Pratte HADA 93 Honda Civic Cx Yokohama 71.016 ( 99.471) 100.000
4 John Paczynski HADA 00 Toyota Celica Kumho 74.403 ( 99.063) 100.000
5 Blair Duguid BAC 02 Chevrolet Corvette Kumho 68.815 ( 99.027) 100.000
6 Adam Hutchinson HADA 89 Nissan 240SX Toyo 69.521 ( 74.852) 100.000
7 Eric Juraschka BAC/CCC 02 Honda Civic SiR Kumho 74.476 ( 99.131) 99.901
8 Jeff Graves MCO 00 Mazda Miata Kumho 71.549 ( 97.884) 99.255
9 Christian Sorensen TAC 96 BMW 328is Kumho 71.001 ( 98.647) 99.121
10 Jud Buchanan MLRC 04 Subaru WRX Sti Kumho 71.099 ( 98.279) 98.984

1 Eric Juraschka BAC/CCC 02 Honda Civic SiR Kumho 67.198 ( 99.588) 100.000
2 Adam Hutchinson HADA 89 Nissan 240SX Toyo 61.898 ( 99.468) 100.000
3 Robert McAuley TAC 98 BMW 328is Toyo 64.902 ( 99.390) 100.000
4 Christian Sorensen TAC 96 BMW 328is Goodyear 63.197 ( 99.377) 100.000
5 Chris Paczynski HADA 87 Honda CRX Si Hankook 65.305 ( 99.370) 100.000
6 David Pratte HADA 93 Honda Civic CX Yokohama 65.292 ( 99.292) 100.000
7 James Mewett PMSC 89 Mazda RX-7 Turbo II Kumho 63.477 ( 98.865) 99.558
8 Gord Ballantine BAC 79 Triumph TR8 Toyo 65.826 ( 98.412) 99.188
9 Jeff Graves MCO 00 Mazda Miata Kumho 65.498 ( 98.264) 99.090
10 John Paczynski HADA 00 Toyota Celica Kumho 67.949 ( 98.159) 98.894

1 James Mewett PMSC 89 Mazda RX-7 Turbo II GT1 63.150 ( 99.536) 100.000
2 David Pratte HADA 93 Honda Civic CX GT3 64.934 ( 99.442) 100.000
3 Brad Meise N TAC 01 VW Golf GTI VR6 T1 67.694 ( 99.211) 100.000
4 Adam Hutchinson HADA 89 Nissan 240SX SGT3 61.328 ( 98.795) 100.000
5 Robert McAuley TAC 98 BMW 328is GT2 63.904 ( 98.726) 100.000
6 Rick Dalton N TAC 83 Mazda RX-7 T4 71.294 ( 98.652) 100.000
7 Robert Magro BAC 91 Lotus Super Seven MODI 60.098 ( 97.900) 100.000
8 Chris Paczynski HADA 87 Honda CRX Si GT4 65.167 ( 38.518) 100.000
9 Alec Chalvardjian HADA 97 Acura Integra Type R GT1 63.402 ( 99.187) 99.602
10 Jeff Graves MCO 00 Mazda Miata GT2 64.264 ( 98.591) 99.439


TOP 10 NOVICES FOR EVENT 6



Originally posted by rainman
I can't agree at all about what Adam proposes. Sure you may be attacking corners at a higher rate of speed, necessitating good judgement and reflexes, but that is only one part of the track puzzle. The slower cars can be more of a handful to control under braking or cornering, necessitating other driving skills.

Additionally, I had the opportunity towards the end of the season to step inside a BFRA F2000 car after an absence of 10 years. Those cars are quicker than anything else you'll find at a Solo 1 event (except perhaps for the karts :confused: ) and I still managed to turn laps all within .3 seconds of each other. Not bad considering I was effectively unfamiliar with the car's handling after so many years.

Track speed really doesn't determine how consistent one is, more how you put the pieces of the puzzle together, corner by corner, straight by straight, braking zone by braking zone.

now don't make Baby Krispy cry! He was jsut put to bed after his feeding :p

[ADAM]

i don't think so, cause you would have to be driving at "11/10ths" :)

to even get into the top times in the class....or be beaten trying to drive consistantly

what do the z06 drivers think of this? blair are you here...whats your take on this speed vs back up point debate?


Originally posted by Dave
LOL Hanif :p You know Adam is all about stirring the pot.

I think a Z06 with a full class every event would have a VERY good chance at winning the overall. This is a very well balanced car that should be able to easily turn consistent back-up times and be very reliable in the process. If someone wants to give me a Z06, I will try to prove this to Adam :cool:

[ctenche]

I'm with Hanif on this. I for one do not believe that a higher horsepower car is more difficult to drive consistently. But let's forget about that and try to keep things in perspective here.

This sport already has a pretty high learning curve for novices. Do we really need more rules, more formulas and another level obfuscation? We want things to be simpler not more convoluted then they already are.

[John P]

Hey Adam, the faster classes didn't have enough competition in 2003 to worry about consistency. When Tony McGrath was driving the Integra Type R, he was often turning FTD with good consistency.

You need to focus on finishing six events next year, then you have to concentrate on winning 6 events before you have to worry about consistency, then you can run all 11 events to improve your consistency.

Faster cars are easier to drive fast, because they are tuned for racing, not for the street.

Just race to win Adam. We don't need rule changes in this area.

[ice/solo racer]

I'll be completly new to solo1 next year and don't want to be flamed or anything ok?.
Coming from solo2 has shown me that scoring overall based on backups has its merits and downfalls.In solo2 you only get maybe 4 runs on a course never seen by anyone so being consistant certainly speaks for driver ability.But when you only have a couple of cars in 1 class and 20+ in another just getting the win to even use the a decent back-up is mathematically more challenging for the larger class.
The point to solo1/2 is that whoever is the fastest for a single lap wins-plain and simple.
I've stated more than once on the solo2 forum that I'd much rather break ties at seasons end with in a shootout event than counting on backups-would eliminate sand bagging/soft classes doing well and not really knowing where the best drivers stand against each other.Seems since we do have a shootout event that adding in those persons tied for a shootout within a shootout would be do able?.
I'm certainly not saying that I should have finished higher than 3rd,but it would be nice to know exactly how I stack up-and thats the point of such a diverse series isn't it?
For the record I have no expectations of being in a tie breaking situation next year in solo1-but I might be in the future!:D

[finboy]

i think its all relative....

if you go gokarting, and get a sweeeeet car that can go and turn, check out your fastest time and you're next fastest time...

then jump into a beater or a pig that can't turn stop or go..
compare your fastest lap time, to your next one..

personally I'd guess the relationship between your differences would be very very close.

:confused:

[Chris91GT]

I don't really buy this theory... and this seems to go back to the thread regarding good handling vs high hp.

If I were to vote either way it would be in favour of John P, that the "faster" cars are generally easier to drive consistently.

Case in point: 2002 I was driving a stock-motored Mustang in a decent chassis. In 2003 I was driving the same chassis with +100hp. The combination in 2003 was a LOT easier to drive fast and consistently. Why? Partly experience no doubt, but everything felt better balanced with the additional power and speed. I suspect that part of that comes from additional speed translating into additional energy and momentum that can be applied at the driver's discretion.

[finboy]

i don't know about you guys... but i'd have a harder time driving consistantly.... with a huge lunch in my belly vs. high hp vs. lower hp car

:confused:

[Dave]

Adam, here's my take on the back-up time thing. Solo 1 is a championship series that is primarily about Class championships, not the Overall championship (no offense to Krispy, Alec and any other former overall champs). My reasoning here is, there can be only one class champion...in other words only one competitor in each class can win 7 (of 12) events. This is therefore a true championship.

The Overall, on the other hand, is contested among several class champions who have achieved maximum points by scoring 100 at 7 (or more) events and they are sorted out mathematically based on back-up lap times. This, to my way of thinking, is a less pure championship title as a result -- primarily because these drivers did not compete head-to-head in cars with similar speed potential (like they did when achieving their class championships) and had differing levels of competition within their classes which would have impacted on their ability to focus on consistency and back-up times. The fact of the matter is, the overall championship is as much determined by how competitive a class you came out of as it is by driver skill and car prep.

I believe it is for these reasons that folks like Tony have expressed an interesting in seeing the Overall Champion title determined via a Shoot-Out, rather than back-up times. I think the idea of determining a champion from a pressure-packed shoot-out format is also appealing, since the best drivers should shine brightest when the stakes are highest. But this approach is not without its limitations. A shoot-out may favor a particular driver who happens to have some pre-existing experience with the car used for the shoot-out or at least has more experience in a similar type of car as the shoot-out vehicle. Another issue with the shoot-out approach is that we don't have a nice ordering of overall leaders during the season, so from a presentation and marketing standpoint the series may look less appealing or somehow disorganized to some.

With a series like the Solo 1 championship, where we have many class champions, determining an overall champion is a very tricky thing to do. I don't believe there's any one way to determine this more fairly or accurately than any other, it's really more of a philosophical issue centered on what makes the most sense for the series from a competition standpoint, from a scorekeeping standpoint, and from a feasibility standpoint.

[CobraStang]

Originally posted by Dave
Solo 1 is a championship series that is primarily about Class championships, not the Overall championship Dave, if what you say is true (not that I doubt your intentions), why are trophies handed out to the overall winners each weekend, and not to class winners? Indeed, the class winners don't even get their picture taken.

[ADAM]

i'll doubt his intentions for you :)

he he he

[Dave]

Adam, shut it :p

Russ, what I'm saying is that in my own personal opinion the Solo 1 championship is really more about class championships than it is the overall, but we market and promote it from an overall championship standpoint because this is a much cleaner and simpler approach. Lets face it, it's a lot sexier participating in a series with an overall championship, giving out trophies for the highest single score each event, and tracking the overall championship throughout the season. It's also a lot easier to do this using a back-up time system than any other method I can think of.

Anyway, I think it's important for the series to have an overall championship, so please don't misunderstand me on that. All I'm saying is that given the nature of this series (with so many different classes & differing levels of competitiveness within each class) it's pretty tough to come up with a way of determining an overall champ. I think for the sake of continuity it makes sense to continue with the current back-up time system, but unfortunately the class championships do seem to get overshadowed by the overall and to me this is perhaps backwards...but again this is all just my opinion so take it for what it's worth.

[Taylor]

but unfortunately the class championships do seem to get overshadowed by the overall and to me this is perhaps backwards

Agreed!

I mean like... all this respect Chris P is getting, and that huge trophy... totally undeserving, I mean come-on, this is Chris we're talking about people. :p

W-T-F?

[Dave]

W-T-F?

Or in Australian...W-T-F mate? :)

[John P]

In the 80's everybody that won their class was considered the overall champion but it was difficult for class winners to earn full points (ie. the competition was tougher, or there was less classes, or we had more counting events (eg. 11 out of twlve)). I think in 1984, I won my class and was the overall Solo 1 Champion, but there were 3 other full point class winners on the podium with me. Solo 1 didn't have a methodology to break the tie. Since then we have evolved to the present back-up system to choose the overall champion. If not for this system we would have 4 drivers in 2003 that could be considered overall champions(Chris, Jeff, Me, Dave).

[Dave]

Interesting stuff, John! I wonder, which method to you prefer? The old system with multiple overall champs or the new system with a single overall champ based on back-up times? What are your thoughts on a shoot-out to determine a single overall champ among all the maximum point class winners?

[haniforama]

You're all champions in my eyes :cool:

[Dave]

LOL...and you're the Hbomb champion to my nose! :p

[haniforama]

And you'll never forget :D

[John P]

I prefer the present method because nobody remembers the four winners in the old method for a particular year. A few years ago someone in CASC was updating the archives, so in curiousity I checked the Solo 1 Champions. The year after I won the championship (with multiple winners) they had a record for a Official Champion using some form of the present system. The four champions the previous year and all years before that change are not in the Archives, since multiple champions or class champions aren't recorded.

[Dave Barker]

Guys , the way the present system works, if you know you have won the class by the end of the first session, you can drive like a relative grandmother to get consistancy and win the Pole Position award and do well in the overalls. OTOH if all you car produce is one quick lap that may come out of nowhere and you can't repeat it , you can still win the class but do poorly in the overall placing for the day.

Maybe the best solution is to take your 3 best laps for the day taken from any session and total them up to win. You could then use the ratio of the second or third fastest lap to the fastest to determine who has the best "backup". If we only use 3 laps then there is not as much of an issue with changing track conditions. This doesn't get rid of the ability to drive like an old lady if you have the class in hand but it does take the wins away from a "one lap wonder".

Certainly I have experienced the misfortune of having to drive on a track part way through the day that has been generously oiled by a previous competitor. Needless to say it put me out of the consistancy game even though I won the class from an earlier session. I.e. kiss goodbye to any chance at the pole position award .

OTOH if you want to keep things similar to what we do now, how about only using the top 6 laps total to calculate the backup and DON'T use the winning time?

[Dave]

interesting ideas, Dr. Dave. There's certainly lots of ways to tweek the back-up time system. Perhaps you could raise this issue at the next Solo 1 Committee meeting? I'd be interested to know what Christian makes of all this. It would also be interesting to hear from the current and former overall champs. Krispy, AC, chime in y0!

[ctenche]

What exactly are we trying to fix here? Is something broken?

This all started with Adamin's hair brained idea (though he has no hair) that fast cars are harder to drive at speed consistenly.

Again, I ask, is something broken? If not, why are we trying to fix it?

[Chris P]

if only my kah weren't a 87 tin can i would like jason's idea. :p

In the mid 90's backup times were scored from the drivers 3 best times of the day. We changed to 6 and 9 because this gives a better idea of consistency. Why do we want to go backwards?


Adam, i'm gonna own you at Xbox next week, watch out buddy ;)

[ADAM]

maybe we could settle it with an x-box game :)

bring it on baby...

actually the HADA fundrasier is jan 17

[Dave Barker]

Originally posted by Chris P


In the mid 90's backup times were scored from the drivers 3 best times of the day. We changed to 6 and 9 because this gives a better idea of consistency. Why do we want to go backwards?




Krispy I'm suggesting that best total time for 3 laps determines the winner not just the backup . We have never done this before and this would represent a significant change but still reward consistancy. I have seen classes won by winners whose next fastest lap is slower that 3 or 4 of the second place guys laps.

[Dave]

I think LAPS in Quebec uses something along the lines of what Dr. Dave is suggesting. Personally, I prefer the single fastest lap determining the winner...it's got that F1 qualifying feel to it :) Or if you prefer, Japanese Time Attack!

I do recall Jeff Graves throwing in a flyer at one event where Rob was faster on every other lap that day. Rob looked a little annoyed :p

I dunno. Maybe Caius is right. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I haven't seen any alternatives come up that seem like a significant improvement over what we've got, though a season-ending Shoot-Out to determine the overall champ would be damn exciting for the drivers involved.

[ScotcH]

Originally posted by Dave
though a season-ending Shoot-Out to determine the overall champ would be damn exciting for the drivers involved.

Not to mention the spectator value! It was pretty cool at last year's slush and slide in Ottawa, where the overall champ was decided by a shoot out (which, by the way, just happened to be Jeff!).

[ice/solo racer]

Put my vote down for the shootout tie breaker!,I mean whats the point of having an overall champion if the others involved in the tie never compete together?
Such a wide range of vehicles and prep levels to say that because one guy is more consistant that they are automatically the best driver-2 many variables including just simply the # of competitors in a class.
Consistancy is great but if one guy only has to run at an 8/10's pace for a class win and another is in a 4 way fight for class honours-who do you think is the most likely to snag a good back-up?.Put them all together and find out for sure-fastest driver wins period,thats what the point is anyway isn't it.

[ADAM]

what car to do the shoot out in? thats a big question?

[Dave]

Tom, you make a very compelling argument :)

Adam, I say we use your car since we all know it's going to be 100% bulletproof and reliable next year :p Hrm, maybe not...

I don't think it would be that tough to either (a) get a loaner car from a manufacturer in exchange for some good press for them, or (b) borrow a competitor's car that is different enough from the one's the finalists drive that it's deemed suitable. Another good option would be (c) have Adam import a R34 Nissan Skyline GTR Spec V since we know nobody else would have one so the shoot-out would be on very even ground :) Go Adam! Go Adam! Go Adam! :)

[ice/solo racer]

Well I try and do what I can considering what little brain power I have to work with!:D

[CobraStang]

Didn't Krispy do a few laps in borrowed cars this season, and thrash the best time of the car's owner's? I distinctly remember Jason in the timing booth at SMP with a big "WTF?" look on his face after Chris peeled off about two seconds from Jason's best time!

What other car owners did Chris embarrass/amaze?

[ScotcH]

Originally posted by CobraStang
Didn't Krispy do a few laps in borrowed cars this season, and thrash the best time of the car's owner's? I distinctly remember Jason in the timing booth at SMP with a big "WTF?" look on his face after Chris peeled off about two seconds from Jason's best time!

What other car owners did Chris embarrass/amaze?

I though that was Dave in Jason's car ... either way, there is certainly something to be said for how far us newbies still have to go :)

[Dave]

Hey, I made Jason's top 3 list! Cool! :p

And hey, I've been beat in my own car once too (by Steve Tong in my Prelude during my novice season), so I know how it feels. It's actually a really good learning experience in a lot of ways. Steve really helped me realize that I was being complacent with my shifting pattern, my braking points, and my line. Before every event (or lapping day for that matter) I have to remind myself to not get too comfortable with anything I'm doing and to constantly experiment in search of a faster way around the track. And of course with more seat time comes better feel and greater confidence at the limit.

More unsolicited driving tips from Dave yet to come :)

[CobraStang]

I stand corrected! It was still pretty funny watching Jason shake his head in disbelief!

[Chris P]

nah, not i. However i did get to drive a certin Super 7. I'm still smiling from that. What a great car

[Dave]

cars I've competed in at Solo 1 events over the last 5-6 seasons:

my '99 Prelude
my '93 Civic with a variety of engines
my dad's '99 Camaro Z28
Alec's ITR
Babzy's ITR
Hanif's Civic
Jason's CRX
Blair's Eagle Talon (we swapped cars for one run during an event for fun)

Other cars I've driven at lapping days:
Adam's 240SX avec turbo goodness & Tokico badness
Paul's S2000 (loved every second of it)
Crash's Prelude (that ATTS shizzo actually works!)
Tony's GSR-powered Acura EL
Hugh Integra GS-R
Henry's ITR (the one Tony drove a few years back)
Steve's Miata (awesome handling car!)
Steve Colt Turbo
Raj's Civics (both of them)
my dad's C3 Corvette with mucho horsepower (400ish)
and best of all...the F2000 at BRA!

Did I miss any? LOL...can you tell I've had a bit of a reliability problem with my own cars over the years? Ah well, it's actually a great learning experience driving other people's cars and so far I haven't blown up anyone elses engine (thank god I didn't drive Miles' car at Mosport!). And I'm proud to say I've never gone four-wheels-off in anyone's car but my own. You've gotta respect other people's property or be prepared to pay to fix it :)