Q about section 6.2.4 in '03 rules

[ScotcH]

Modification to OE shock absorber/strut: What exactly does that mean? I know that a Koni shock will take the 2 PIP hit, but will a Monroe? How does one determine what is an allowable replacement? In my new car the shocks are Monroes ... obviously not performance shocks. I will likely replace them, but what with, other than BMW ones? What about ones from an M3?

[Chris P]

Get koni's or some other uber german brand shocks. Don't waste you time with OE stuff. M3 equipment is an improvment, however if you are spending money then do it right and get the proper equipment the first time.

[Chris P]

PS, no points for the Monroes.

[ScotcH]

Originally posted by Chris P
PS, no points for the Monroes.

Ok, I knew that, but why? They are not OEM, so why no points, but points for Koni? How do we determine what is a non OE modification? For example, the Koni reds are very similar to OEM. Is it because they are adjustable?

I'm just trying to get a better understanding of the PIP system :)

[Dave]

Arek, if you replace the OE shocks with a non-performance or OE equivalent shock like a Monroe that are designed to be a straight low-cost replacement then we do not require the declaration of PIPs. On the other hand, if the substitute shocks have stiffer valving, adjustability, or are made of a lighter weight material (ie. aluminum) or have ANY other performance enhancing qualities, the PIPs must be declared. It's as simple and complicated as that :) Check out Sections 5.4 thru 5.6 (page 23) for a better explanation of what we consider OE equivalent.

If you think the Monroe's enhance the performance of your car, then I guess you've just got a free upgrade :rolleyes:

Hehe...seriously, get some good Bilsteins for that german brick of yours!

GT3 could be a killer class next year, what with Hanif and Taylor both building very competitive cars for that class. Should be fun to watch the carnage :) My Dad and I will probably be in SGT3 by the look of things...

[ScotcH]

Makes sense ... thanks guys!

I have 3 PIPs to play with, so I might have to get some decent shocks for it after all.

[haniforama]

Does your 325 comes with a factory LSD?

[ScotcH]

Originally posted by haniforama
Does your 325 comes with a factory LSD?

Oh yeah, baby! No more 1 wheel drive for me!

[ice/solo racer]

Might be best for me to go up another class to sgt2 to get away from Dave?Then again who's going to be in sgt2 next year?

Same ole same ole-too many fast guys and only won can win!!.

If I go up a class,then it'll suck to get propositioned by sgt3-what to do what to do?.

[Dave]

Tom, I think it really depends on what your long-term plans are for the car. If you're only planning to do 1-2 years of Solo 1 as prep for regional road racing, you might be wise to prep the car to the higher class since that's probably the way you'll want/need it to be competitive in the Touring GT series. But if you think you'll be doing more Solo 1 than that, target a class you think your car is best suited to and max out your prep for it in whatever way you think will make for the fastest overall package. When doing so I believe it's important to consider the kinds of tracks we use for Solo 1 (which put more emphasis on handling and momentum than on raw horsepower).

[ice/solo racer]

Thanks Dave,I've already had all this rolling around in my head.You know I'll be prepping for the max in whatever class I run!!;)
I've been playing with the new prep point schedule tonight,I think I'll stick with my original plan and run in sgt3.My car is currently sitting at 86.6 points so I'll have to drop 2 points to stay in sgt3.
Honestly I'd rather run against stiff competition than be in a soft class,so you'd better be ready(ha ha-I know whaterever).
I'm going to post my car prep points on the hada forum and hash out some things with you guys and get some different views.

[ADAM]

i will most likely be in SGT2 next season...come play with me and ken in his rsx

[CobraStang]

I figure I'll be in SGT3, but can't say for sure until I get the car back, and the 2004 rulebook is issued.

I expect to have my high HP fat ass handed to me! But if I can learn how to drive better, and get some handling mod's for 2005.....look out!

[Dave]

Tom, SGT2 is going to be a killer class too I think. Adam may end up in there, though he really belongs in SGT1 with that freakmobile he calls a Nissan. If Kenneth is out much with his RSX he'll be darn tough to beat too. I think he may be pretty busy with Touring GT and possibly Speed World Challenge driving next year though. If Andrew Woytezcko comes out with his RX7 on some decent race rubber he'll be extremely quick in SGT2 as well, and you never know who else will show up on any given year. Russ' or the Atkins' mustang could be a very competitive SGT2 car with enough suspension work, though both could end up in SGT3 as well and give us low horsepower Honda folks a run for our money.

It does sounds like SGT3 will be a bigger class in terms of competitor numbers, so it should be a real fun group to run in. I can forsee SGT3 being like GT1 was this year...lots of cars, many different class winners throughout the year, and one hell of a good time for all :)

[ice/solo racer]

Kenneth is going into speed challenge!,cool but now I'm bummed because I'm poor and nobody's knocking on my door to drive for a team.An ice race buddy(mark swain) that went road racing tried to go racing a corvette in the speed world challenge-he was trying to find the quarter million to run the season in a rented car.Too bad he couldn't raise the fundsm,but that is a stupid amount of money.
I will stick with sgt3,sounds like its approaching BSS level of competition with some truly great drivers(don't mean me BTW-jeesh I'm not that shallow!).I do in fact welcome a class filled with real competition so I have a great baseline of where I stand as a driver/chassis tuner/guesser.
Of course I'll be in a new undevolped car on tracks I have no experience on-I ain't scared(much)bring it on!:cool:

[Dave]

Kensai Racing is building a Speed World Challenge car (either a RSX or a EP3 Civic) that they will likely campaign a few times in '04. It's my understanding that Kenneth will likely be their driver, and rightfully so! He did an amazing job driving their Touring GT Integra this summer and having had the pleasure of riding around Mosport with him as a passenger I can attest to just how skillful a driver he really is. I think he'll do extremely well in the Speed World Challenge series once they get their new car sorted out and up to speed. And he's a super nice guy too :) I can't wait to cheer him on!

[RacerRick]

I might be dropping down to GT2 or 3 with the Mullet Camaro after the Challenge.

My current turbo motor costs 23 PIP's while the NA one that I am looking at building with the same horsepower only costs 13-16 PIP's. I am currently at 77.8 so I would go down to anywhere from 67.8-70.8 PIP's :D

[Dave]

Rick, we're going to require any car with 12 or more PIPs in the engine to supply us with a dyno plot for classification. So the mullet will end up in whatever class the adjusted power-to-weight ratio and suspension rating dictate. This is really the fairest way to deal with highly modified engines, we think.

[RacerRick]

oh poo...

I was just going to build a 350 with decent compression, cam, intake, and headers. Late model factory unported heads even, on the stock shortblock. They have smaller chambers (64cc vs. 76c) so they boost compression. This is all basically bolt ons, minus the cam. Even using the factory stock motor with mild bolt ons puts you at 12 PIPs.

What about allowing updating/backdating with no PIP costs with in the make/model/chassis?

This would allow someone with a first year car to run with a last year car competitively. A third gen 1982 Camaro Z28 has the same chassis as a 1992 Camaro Z28 1LE. This would greatly simplify the classification system since you would only have to class the 1992.

Intake manifold - 1 point
Carburator - 3 points
Headers - 2 points
Camshaft - 3 points
Rocker Arms - 1 point
MSD ignition upgrade - 2 PIPS

= 12 points for a stock engine with a few bolt ons.

This brings up another point:

So is there a standard facility that we all use? I know from personal experience that several dyno's are very optimistic when it comes to power. It all boils down to the operator and cell.

I had a 40hp difference on three dynos' because of weather and the dyno in my drag car. There is a dyno in the toronto area I will not go to because they are downright crooked when it comes to power readings.

[Dave Barker]

Originally posted by Dave


It does sounds like SGT3 will be a bigger class in terms of competitor numbers, so it should be a real fun group to run in. I can forsee SGT3 being like GT1 was this year...lots of cars, many different class winners throughout the year, and one hell of a good time for all :)

I dunno Dave, With Adam moved up to his more rightful place (i.e. broken on the sidelines or on fire) you SGT3 guys may just be crying in your beer(s) as you get propositioned by GT1. Right Christian, James etc.??? Smack that!!

[Dave]

Rick, there's no update/backdate rule any more because we classify each car model variant on it's own, so no car is at an inherent advantage/disadvantage right out of the box.

The dyno plot requirement is something we're going to try in '04 because it's evident that with highly modified engines the PIP schedule really can't fairly capture the power gains for so many different kinds of engines (ie. turbo, 4 cyl., V8, etc). For basic bolt-ons the PIP schedule works really well, but once you start moving beyond that it becomes much harder to predict power gains with a prep point system, so we feel it's fairer for all involved if we go to the dyno option at that point. There won't be more than 15-20 cars that this requirement affects, so hopefully it won't be too big an imposition.

I've spent plenty of time at various dyno shops, so we're definitely aware of the variation between dyno types as well as specific dyno facilities. Ideally what we'd like to do is have a Solo 1 dyno day where everyone with 12 PIP+ engines has their engine rated, but beyond that we'll strongly suggest you get your dyno testing done at a list of shops we'll provide that we know to have properly calibrated and in-tune dynos that produce reliable and repeatable results.

Personally I'd like to see us use Yoshio's Dynapack, since this dyno takes the whole wheel/tire combo out of the equation.

Anyway, more details on this requirement will be forthcoming in the near future. I'd like to have the '04 rulebook completed by the end of January if not earlier.

GT1 propositioning SGT3 in '04? *said with best liverpool accent* not bloodly likely!

[glh]

Dave any car with 12 or more pip points for the engine will have to have a dyno report . Now my plans are this stock motor , turbo upgrades , head pipe, boost controler . Does a limited slip diff count as engine upgrades. Does this mean I need a report if so my car at 2086 stock weigth and makeing aprox 200 hp what class would it be in?
Steve

[Dave]

Steve, have a close look at Section 6.1.I 'Dyno Plot Option' in the '03 rulebook. It details which section of the engine prep schedule is applicable. Add up your PIPs in those areas and if it totals 12 or more, you're going to be required to submit a dyno sheet verifying your horsepower level in full race trim. Sounds to me like you probably don't have 12 PIPs in the engine, but you'll have to add them up to be sure.

To determine you class using the dyno plot option, divide your peak wheel horsepower rating by .85 and substitute this value into the spreadsheet. This will give you a new (higher) starting PI, to which you'll need to add your suspension PIPs and your Body&Trim PIPs.

[CobraStang]

It would be nice if CSC Racing had a dyno. Then we could get checked out at the Open House right before doing the early registration.

[Dave]

good point Russ. How about if we organize a dyno day prior to the Open House? That could work, assuming most of the Solo 1 folks who know they'll need to provide a dyno plot show up :)

[ice/solo racer]

Hey Dave you mentioned earlier about putting together a list of dyno shops,I will need to do some tuning prior to going to a dyno day so I don't waste others time etc.

[RacerRick]

I think I am going to see if I can keep the points under 12. For the second motor after the challenge I want to go NA instead of turbo.

11 points can still build a pretty good motor:D I have a decent amount of displacement to work with and there are good factory heads, cam, intake, exhaust...should work well.

[Dave]

Good strategy, Rick. If you can make more power with 11 points than the PIP schedule would predict, you'll have an advantage in your class. Of course getting that huge hunk of deeeeeetroit iron thru the turns in another story ;)

Tom, if you're coming down to the GTA for dyno time, I'd recommend Japanese Automotive (owner: Yoshio - call 416- 781-1179...the shop is located near Yorkdale Mall in Toronto) since he now has a Dynapack dyno that simulates realworld load much better than the more common inertia style dynos (ie. Dynojet), plus with the Dynapack you can hold the engine at a specific rpm level and tune it where with an inertia dyno you have to do a continuous pull from 3k rpm to redline, adjust the fuel/ignition maps based on what you saw zooming by on the computer screen, rinse and repeat. The Dynapack is therefore a far more efficient tuning tool. But if you or your tuner prefer a Dynojet, Jeff at Dyno Power Services is a nice guy and he's recently upgraded his software so it's an excellent facility (in Scarborough).

BTW, if you need a professional tuner to work on your ECU, give Paul at Neetronics a call. He's a great guy and will get you good results that won't blow up your engine. He has his own dyno, though it doesn't print dyno graphs with peak horsepower numbers so it's no use in terms of Solo 1 classification. Paul's number is 416-236-4498

[ice/solo racer]

Thanks Dave,apparently there's a hot rod shop in orilla with a chassis dyno,so canspeed is working on access to that one for set up.Would be nice to have for an extended time frame of course.
If that pans out then I can come to the dyno day prepared,my car is slated to be painted in the first 2-3 weeks of march and then it should be ready for a dyno day.
Any chance of having an approved db meter on hand for noise compliance testing as well?.

[Dave]

Tom, the testing method we use for dB checks wouldn't be possible to reproduce at a dyno shop. I believe there's a description of this method in the rulebook.

FYI, Cayuga has their own special dB testing method but unless your car is really loud it should pass. But be prepared to quiet your car at this track if need be.

[Doug P]

Don't dyno withou the new paint job!!

Got to be worth a few HP.:D

[CobraStang]

Originally posted by Dave
Ideally what we'd like to do is have a Solo 1 dyno day where everyone with 12 PIP+ engines has their engine rated, but beyond that we'll strongly suggest you get your dyno testing done at a list of shops we'll provide that we know to have properly calibrated and in-tune dynos that produce reliable and repeatable results. This could be quite a job, considering how many dynos there are. Also, if you're putting a list together, why not post the rates as well? In fact, why not ask for a Solo 1 competitor's discount?

I've used TAG in Oakville, for less than $70/hr after Mustang club discount. Pro-tech is $130/hour, including tuning for Diablo. Jeff at Dyno Power Services is impossible to get a hold of.

[glh]

Good idea Russ Augastio in Pickering charged me $100 for 3 runs without air ratio and $150 with

[DECH_92]

OMSC always has 2 or 3 dyno days at Dyno Powerd Services
First one early in the year.
I think I payed $75 with A/F ratio

Man my A/F was 12 to 1
Time for a turbo:rolleyes:

[ice/solo racer]

Dave I have read the noise measuring guidlines,just thought that if someone had an approved meter and stood the approximate distance away I thought we might get at least an idea.Changing exhaust quantity at the track is a pain in the a** even with a supertrapp-depending on how loud you are the supertrapp pretty much kills the power be the time you get it quiet enough-on old corolla's anyway!.
I will try and get an exhaust thats quiet enough to start with,hate to cause any s**t as thats so not like me!
;)

Yep with fresh paint at least the thing will look fast,right now it looks like my car of many colours(meaning fugly)