Suspension suggestions

[Steve-O]

Hey guys.

I've been reading alot of things about the ES poly bushings(epsecially the rear trailing arm bushings) and there seems to be a lot of mixed emotions about them.

i'll list my set-up here and if anyone has any suggestions or experience with what i have, please let me know.

i'm in FSP at WOSCA events and this is my set-up to date:

Skunk2 Civic adjustable sleeve coilovers
Tokico Illumina adjustable shocks
Skunk front upper, rear upper, rear lower tie-bar
Front lower tie-bar
Complete front Si HB lower control arm and sway bar conversion
Energy Suspension end-links w/ bushings
Energy Suspension Hyper Flex kit
Energy Suspension trailing arm bushings
Energy Suspension motor mount inserts

In the next year i'm planning to upgrade to:

Progress sway bar kit front and rear
Skunk2 camber adjustable front upper arms
Suspension Techniques rear toe adjust kit
Ingalls camber adjustable rear upper arm w/ poly bush

please feel free to make any suggestions or constructive criticism.

I wasn't able toi compete as much as i originally planned due to recent layoff at my work and family obligations but next year looks alot more promising for us and the Civic

thanks for any help guys

P.S. I've heard and read about the rear sway bar damaging or tearing out of the subframe. anyone know or have experiences with this as well? i'm planning to add a rear sway bar and i dont' particuarily want to encounter this situation. I know progress makes a subframe support but i can't seem to find one for my year of Civic on their site

[Dave]

Beaks makes an excellent subframe reinforcement kit to protect against damage from larger rear swaybars. This problem is often caused by using an ITR (22mm) rear swaybar without reinforcing the mounting points, but I've never heard of it happening with a Progress bar. Perhaps the Progress bar is designed such that it doesn't put as much stress on the subframe. Dunno. For $100, the Beaks kit is cheap insurance either way.

As for ES poly bushings, they do seem to be less prone to tearing out than Prothane but they're still not particularly durable. Plenty of guys in HADA have had problems with poly bushings tearing out shortly after installation. For the rear trailing arm main bushing, I would highly recommend you go with the Mugen replacement unit, not only because the bushing material is more compliant (but still significantly stiffer than stock) and therefore more durable but also because it's a MUCH easier installation since it's complete so you just punch out the old one and push in the new one (as opposed to the ES bushing which requires burning out the old bushing material and pressing in the new).

What kind of springs are you using? Progressive rate or linear rate? Depending on how much you're willing to tolerate a harsher ride, going with linear spring rates will definitely improve your car's performance for Solo 2 and track use. You also need to be careful not to lower the car too much, since this can have very negative effects on handling (ie. bump steer). It's good to see you're planning on adding camber adjustability, since this is key to using the full contact patch of the tire, reducing/evening tire wear, and generally maximizing grip. Eventually you may want to upgrade from the Tokicos to a shock that can handle higher/stiffer spring rates.

EG's are good :)

[Steve-O]

i just checked out the Beaks system and I'm going to get it when I buy the Progress bar. I'm fairly new to suspension parts and basically just jumped in head first buying all my stuff at once. Is there somewhere in Ontario here that sells it?

i'm assuming that the Progress bars are good as I haven't read or heard anything bad about them so far. I originally wanted the Skunk2 rear bar but I would have to get new rear LCAs ($$$) from a Del Sol DOHC VTEC with the mounting points in them to be able to use it. The Progress one also has SCCA track testing to back it up and I believe it comes with an adapter kit.

i believe the Skunk2 coilovers are linear because the coils are evenly spaced top to bottom. I emailed Skunk and the tech guy told me the rates are 8kg in the front and 6kg in the rear.

I spoke with Pat Yorke at one of the WOSCA series events and he as well as a few other racers mentioned I had my EG too low. I raised it up and measured all four corners to make sure everything was basically equal and it handles alot better now. that's one reason I kinda hate coilovers because i'm a FREAK when it comes to having things line up right or measure up equally :D

I would like to get a complete threaded body shock system but money's tight right now and so far the Skunk2/Tokico is holdingup nice and handles well. I still drive the car so I can't make it a dedicated track car yet. We also plan to also use the EM Racing interior triangulated tie-bar system in the rear tub but that's not for a while yet.

Before I forget, they say with the progress bar or the Beaks kit that it may not fit with some aftermarket exhausts. Any chance you'd happen to know which ones or which basic designs WON'T work? I'm guessing the APEXi styles which go underneath the LCAs would get in the way but i'm not sure. We have our own home-based parts and service business of which Skunk2 is a brand we sell so we're planning to upgrade to the full cat-back Mega Power exhaust. It's piping (60mm) follows the same path and design as the OEM Honda piping. I'd just hate to buy a sway bar and find out it interferes with our new exhaust or vice versa.

thanks for the advice and sorry to talk to much :p

[Dave]

For the Beaks kit, I know Kevin at Psychotic Racing (http://www.psychotic-racing.com/) carries them and he's located in Markham. Really nice guy to deal with too.

You should talk to Pat about the Progress bar. He tried one on his EG but has since switched to a ITR rear bar. Both are 22mm, but he definitely seems to prefer the feel of the ITR bar. These can be found for about $100 used, plus the Beaks kit for another $100, which probably comes in cheaper than the Progress bar by itself. This may be the way to go.

Sounds like you are running linear springs. This is good, though with 8k front and 6k rear the car must still understeer a fair bit in the corners. You might want to swap those around so that you've got the stiffer springs on the rear of the car, even if you add a big rear swaybar. Getting the rear of the car to rotate or swing around is tricky but makes a world of difference when you get it just right.

I'm sure the Progress bar mounts the same way an OE bar does, so you shouldn't have any clearance problems with the exhaust, though you should talk to Progress to confirm this before you buy (obviously).

Cheers,
Dave

[Steve-O]

a friend of mine has dealt wiht Kevin and he is a nice guy from what i hear. i'm glad he can get them because I think i'm going to go with the Progress front and rear bar for my EG and i would like the security of knowing the bar won't rip out of the subframe. $100 is worth it for the piece of mind.

BTW i read your racing story (again LOL) Dave and i must say I am envious even with the problems you had with the motor. I dream about racing my HB every day and every time i turn on SPEED and see the World Challenge cars battling it out

thanks for the info man and i hope i'm not buggin ya. i've got lots of ambition and determination but i am new to the SOLO race scene and it's comforting to know there's a wealth of knowledge on here and at the racers from guys like you.

LOL I'm the new kid lookin up to the veterans :D

[Marsh]

Steve, you think you're anal about lining things up but you haven't even cornere weighted yet. If your interesed I'll email you when Murray and I do our cars in the spring. You can come down to London and do it with us for cheap.

[Steve-O]

sounds good Marsh. i'll definitely make the trip up so just let me know a few weeks in advance if you can when you plan to do it because I took out the Skunk2s and Tokicos for the winter to avoid the salt abuse and i'll have to put them back in.

the gf and i are going to try and make it out to the meeting this wed as well as the event on the 25th. now that it's the new year we're going to join WOSCA within the next few weeks. we couldn't afford to get crazy with the car anymore or make it out to the rest of the fall events because of family and financial constraints. add to that Oxford announcing just before Xmas that they plan to shut down the plant where I am at. things have changed a bit as far as how many events we can attend right now and how quickly we can get parts for the Civic.

time to start looking for sponsors :D

[Dave]

No problem Steve, and glad you enjoyed my little OTC story. I may be going back for the '04 event as a journalist/competitor. We'll see.

Corner weighting is good :)

Cheers,
Dave

[RegaMaro]

Hey Marsh, would ya happen to have time for another car to get in with you guys for some corner weighting?

[Martini Focus]

I'm looking to get the Focus done as well, can you recomend a good shop?

[Steve-O]

I just found these pics on Honda-Tech and I can't use the Beaks kit with my Skunk2 rear lower tie bar:

Skunk2 bar (had to use a pic of a torn subframe to show where tie bar mounts to..the guy had used a Beaks kit)
http://heritagemastiffs.com/wario/garage/Tony/ouch1.jpg

Where Beaks kit mounts:
http://www.beaksproducts.com/srk-eg03.jpg

judging by the pics i've seen it looks like the a rear sway bar (with or without the beaks kit) wold not allow me to keep my Skunk2 rea lower tie bar. also found out today that progress doesn't make a front sway bar for my EG.

It looks like i may end up having to run Integra or Del Sol rear control arms and installing the Comptech kit if i can't get a sway bar to work with my Skunk2 tie bar

[haniforama]

I believe the Beaks kit is meant specifically for the 22mm ITR rear bar on a DC or EG chassis.

[Steve-O]

Originally posted by haniforama
I believe the Beaks kit is meant specifically for the 22mm ITR rear bar on a DC or EG chassis.

yes, they make a kit for the EG but from the mounting kit pic they provide shows that it interferes with where my tie bar would be

[Dave]

I dunno, but based on those pictures it looks to me like you could fit an ITR 22m rear sway bar and beaks kit with your Skunk2 tie bar. That torn up subframe is missing the part where the swaybar would mount, but if you look at the other picture with the swaybar the big bolt at 7 o'clock relative to the swaybar is where you'd mount the tie bar and it looks like there may be clearance all the way around the bolt such that the tie bar would fit. I'd give Skunk2 a quick call to find out for sure, or call Ray at KHF (they carry Skunk2 stuff) at 416-752-2066.

[Steve-O]

Originally posted by Dave
I dunno, but based on those pictures it looks to me like you could fit an ITR 22m rear sway bar and beaks kit with your Skunk2 tie bar. That torn up subframe is missing the part where the swaybar would mount, but if you look at the other picture with the swaybar the big bolt at 7 o'clock relative to the swaybar is where you'd mount the tie bar and it looks like there may be clearance all the way around the bolt such that the tie bar would fit. I'd give Skunk2 a quick call to find out for sure, or call Ray at KHF (they carry Skunk2 stuff) at 416-752-2066.

Sorry Dave I'm stupid :p :(

I forgot to mention the pic with the subframe torn out is from an '96+ where the bar mounts to the outside of the subframe and outside of the LCA bolt. the pic with the red subframe showing the Beaks kit is where the sway bar mounts on an EG or in Integra because last time i was under my car i remember those holes being on the inside part of the subframe and the LCA bolt.

i'm going to work on the car in a few mins to put the washer bottle back in for winter so i'll take a look when i go down to check for sure.

KHF is my Skunk2 dealer so I'm going to email Skunk2 or talk to Ray tomorrow for sure. I've already talked to skunk before about the sway bar and i need to get GSR or Del Sol DOHC VTEC rear LCAs to make their bar fit so I'm thinking I may just go wiht the Skunk rear bar as it's 21mm diameter is big enough and it's the same as the factory Si HB front bar I have.

[Dave]

aha! I see what you mean now, Steve. The pic with the beaks kit and swaybar is the driver's side rear when in my mind I was thinking it was the passenger side rear. It all makes sense now, since the Beaks kit pushes the swaybar bracket out and into the path of the Skunk2 tie bar. Ugh. That sucks. Hrm...maybe a custom beaks kit can be fabbed up by a machine shop that will somehow work around the Skunk2 tie bar? Anything is possible if you know a good machinist :)

[Steve-O]

Originally posted by Dave
aha! I see what you mean now, Steve. The pic with the beaks kit and swaybar is the driver's side rear when in my mind I was thinking it was the passenger side rear. It all makes sense now, since the Beaks kit pushes the swaybar bracket out and into the path of the Skunk2 tie bar. Ugh. That sucks. Hrm...maybe a custom beaks kit can be fabbed up by a machine shop that will somehow work around the Skunk2 tie bar? Anything is possible if you know a good machinist :)

i just checked the beaks website and amidst all the small print I saw a link for EG's wiht a rear lower tie
http://www.beaksproducts.com/srktiebar.jpg
It's basically longer bolts, thin washers and thick extension tubing.

i just emailed skunk about their bar and i'm going to email beaks tomorrow to see about it. i just dont' want to have to give up a perfectly good tie bar. thanks as always for the help Dave.

[Steve-O]

P.S. are the factory sway bar mounting holes on the GSR and Del Sol DOHC VTEC LCAs the same or different? reason being the Skunk2 rear bar requires them in order to work.

[Dave]

they're the same. Good sleuth work on the beaks kit, btw :)