Can I use this Harness?

[Janny]

Working on getting ready to use the car more extensively in S1 in the next year or two, I found this harness. Is it legal in S1 and lapping sessions.

Follow the link:

http://www.soloracer.com/corbeau3ptdbl.html

What I like about it, is that I don't have to cut up the interior, I can clip it in and out easily, and I figure it ought to hold me in place in all but the most severe kinds of incidents. ( I plan on NOT being involved in severe incidents, and I will drive accordingly) :D

[Chris P]

quick answer:
sorry, nope.

http://store3.yimg.com/I/soloracerdotcom_1771_762611

you need 2 attachment points, the V is no good for the shoulder straps.

[Marsh]

I thought that the rule still read 3 point or better?

In which case even if the tech inspectors didn't like this (and I can't see why) then anything is legal so long as you wear your stock 3 point over top. (what all the solo-2 people do with their lap belts).

[Janny]

Here is one that is identical to the one I originaly aksed about. It is DOT approved. Both of these are 3 point harnesses. I don't understand why either would not be legal, since the stockers are only 3 point as well.

http://www.soloracer.com/rallye3.html

Perhaps someone could explain?

BTW, Hello Marshall! It's John from Sarnia. You know, . . . the guy with the red z28

[CobraStang]

My understanding is that approval of harnesses involves not only the harness itself, but more importantly the way that it is installed.

If you have a decent fixed back racing seat, how much difference does the harness make in terms of holding the driver in place on the track?

As far as how good they are in an accident, is it wise to use a competition harness unless your car is also equipped with a roll bar?

[DECH_92]

Thats the one I was going to show you
If its DOT aproved, it should be legal

Dave, what do you think?

[Dave]

well, in looking over section 2.1 of our rulebook, I don't see any specific reference to non-OE harnesses requiring two separate mounting points for the shoulder straps. So as long as the straps meet our minimum width requirement and all the attachment hardware is SAE grade 5 or better and it's installed properly I can't see any reason why it would be deemed unsafe by the scrutineer.

That being said, I'd be a bit concerned about the angle the shoulder straps are held at due to the single mounting point and the fact that they may shift loads higher and more centrally onto the collar bones. You won't catch me in anything but a proper 5-point harness and only in a vehicle equipped with a roll bar or roll cage. A harness in a car without a roll bar is seriously dangerous because it'll hold you in a upright position even if the roof gets crushed in on you. Not a good scenario at all IMO.

[Janny]

>So as long as the straps meet our minimum width requirement

What is the width requirement Dave?

>A harness in a car without a roll bar is seriously dangerous >because it'll hold you in a upright position even if the roof gets >crushed in on you.

Good point, and a very real concern. But, I also have some concern about turning my car into a cop magnet by driving around with a roll bar, and this is quite apart from the obvious concerns about weight and of course cost.

Since I'm very new to this whole scene, can you tell me, do most people run with roll bars? Do many people run with harnesses and not roll bars?

Damn, this is just getting more and more complex.:(

[Dave]

Most Solo 1 competitors don't have a roll bar, though a growing number do these days. I'd say about 25% have a roll bar or roll cage, maybe a bit more now. The ones who do not have a roll bar generally just use the stock 3-point seat belt, though there are some competitors who use a harness strap across their waist to hold them down and some that use a full 4 or 5 point harness. We haven't made this illegal, though in our (meaning the rulebook team) opinion it's a very bad idea to use harness shoulder straps without at least a roll bar.

The minimum strap width is 2'' or 50mm, though the anti-submarine strap need only be 44mm wide. Fasteners must be a minimum of 3/8'' dia. and SAE grade 5. The shoulder straps should also slope down from where it leaves the shoulders to the rear mounting points at an angle of 45 degrees or less from horizontal.

[Janny]

Maybe I should just leave well enough alone for now, or at least until I have a clearer idea of how far I want to go with this business. As much as I am not interested in rolling my car, I am even less interested in ending up a quad or parapalegic. :(

[Dave]

what kind of car will you be using for Solo 1? Plenty of people solo their street cars without roll over protection beyond what's built into the car already and as far as I know nobody has ever been seriously injured at a Solo 1 event (though I've only be around for the last 6 years or so).

It's entirely possible that a roll bar requirement will be introduced in '04 or '05 for cars that have been heavily modified to such an extent that they are significantly exceeding the speed the manufacturer ever envisioned (and thus exceeding any roll over protection the car may have built into it). But if your car is stock or only moderately modified (ie. upgraded suspension and basic bolt-on power adders) then you won't likely ever be required to equip your car with a roll bar for Solo 1 purposes.

[philip_240sx]

Originally posted by Dave
The ones who do not have a roll bar generally just use the stock 3-point seat belt, though there are some competitors who use a harness strap across their waist to hold them down and some that use a full 4 or 5 point harness. We haven't made this illegal, though in our (meaning the rulebook team) opinion it's a very bad idea to use harness shoulder straps without at least a roll bar.

My thoughts exactly.

Everyone's goals are different... in my case safety has priority over looks. I have done some lapping over the past year and I find the stock 3pt belts just don't hold me in place. So a 5pt harness and a proper 4 pt roll bar is going in.

[ctenche]

While Section 2.1 of the Solo 1 rulebook does not say anything specific about the shoulder straps on non-OE harnesses, the CASC-OR GCR (which we are subject to) does.

I can't seem to get to the CASC web site to pull up the GCR right now but I remember it specifically prohibiting Y-type harnesses.

Like everyone says though, I would not use a harness without proper rollover protection. I do however use the lap part of my harness in conjunction with my OE 3-point belt. Though not as effective as a full harness, it does help to keep my ass planted in the seat.

[Dave]

Caius, good point about the GCR's. I'll have to take a closer look at those once the CASC website is back online.

[haniforama]

Dave - check e-mail.

[haniforama]

Here is the section on Driver Restraints:

APPENDIX "N" DRIVER RESTRAINT SYSTEMS
1. With the exception of Ice Racing and Driver Schools, all Drivers shall utilize either a five or six point restraint harness meeting FIA/IS0 Standard No. 8853 or SFI Spec. 16.1.
Restraint harness installations are subject to the approval of the Chief Scrutineer at each Event.
2. A five point system is required for use in Cars where the Driver is seated in an upright position, consisting of a lap belt, two shoulder straps and an anti submarine strap, with load spreading padding at pressure points. The lap belt and shoulder straps shall be of 76mm minimum width and the anti submarine strap of approximately 50mm minimum width.
3. A six point system is required for use in Cars where the Driver is seated in a semi-reclining position, consisting of a lap belt, two shoulder straps and two anti submarine straps with load spreading padding at pressure points. The lap belt and shoulder straps shall be of 76mm minimum width and the anti submarine strap of approximately 50mm minimum width.
4. The material of all straps shall be nylon or Dacron polyester and in new or perfect condition. The buckles shall be of metal to metal quick release type except in the case of leg straps of the six point system where they attach to the seat belt or shoulder harness straps.
5. The shoulder harness shall be a two strap over the shoulder type. There shall be a single release common to the seat belt and shoulder harness.
Only separate shoulder straps are permitted. "Y" type shoulder straps are not allowed. "H" type configuration is allowed.
It is recommended that the shoulder harness where it passes over the shoulders, be 76mm wide or have 76mm wide padding.
The shoulder harness shall be mounted behind the Driver and above a line drawn downward from the shoulder point at an angle of 40 degrees with the horizontal.
In cases where the Driver is in a semi-reclining position, the shoulder harness shall be attached so that the angle between a line drawn through the Driver's spine and the shoulder harness is 45 degree or greater.
In Cars utilizing production type seats, the mounting point shall be a least 18in behind the front of the seat back.
Details of installation shall be according to the manufacturer's instructions.
6. The single anti submarine strap of the five point system shall be attached to the floor structure similar to the shoulder harness mounting and have a metal to metal connection, with a single release common to the belt and shoulder harness.
7. The double leg straps of the six strap system may be attached to the floor of the Car as above for the five strap system, or be attached to the seat belt so that the Driver sits on them, passing them up between the legs, and attaching either to the single release common to the belt and shoulder harness or to the shoulder harness straps.
It is also permissible for the leg straps to be secured at a point common to the seat belt attachment to the structure, passing under the Driver and up between the legs to the seat belt release or shoulder harness straps.
8. All straps shall be free to run through intermediate loops or clamps/buckles.
Race Regulations 2003
9. The minimum acceptable bolts used in the mounting of all belts and harness are 3/8in diameter SAE Grade 5. Where possible, seat belts, shoulder harness, and anti-submarine strap(s) should be mounted to the roll structure or frame of the Car. Where this is not possible, large diameter mounting washers or equivalent reinforcing shall be used to spread the load. Bolting directly to floor panels etc., without adequate reinforcement, is not acceptable.
10. NOTE; Effective January 1, 2004: Driver restraint systems shall be replaced every five (5) years from the date of manufacture OR on the expiry date as indicated by the manufacturer’s label.

[ctenche]

There you go. Item #5.

Thanks for typing all that up Hanif :)

[Dave]

Point 5 states that 'Y style' harnesses are not allowed. However, I'm not sure Solo 1 is governed by the GCR's since we have our own 'seat belt' section in our rulebook. Solo 1 doesn't require many of the things stipulated in the GCR's since we're a separate discipline with our own ruleset. We do refer to the GCR's in some sections of our rulebook as a way of streamlining (rather than repeating what is already in writing) but I think when we do have a specific section on an issue like seat belts our rules are applied rather than the GCR's.

I'll get in touch with Christian and Perry about this and see what they think.

Cheers,
Dave

[Janny]

I will be using a t-Top Z28 Dave. How is roll over protection in those?

[Dave]

what year Z28? I've used my dad's 1999 Z28 for a few Solo 1 events and there's plenty of head room and given that it's a newer car I'm sure the a- and b-pillars and roof structure are plenty strong. If you're talking about an 80's Z28, I'm really not too sure how strong they are. My personal rule of thumb would be to put a roll bar in anything much older than say 15 years.

[Janny]

Mine is 1995, so that has solid roll over protection?

[Dave]

Your generation of Camaro is a good strong car in my opinion, but I'm not an automotive engineer. Personally I don't think you have any major worries in terms of roll over protection as long as you don't overdrive the car and are mindful of the conditions (ie. be extra careful in the rain or in the spring when the run-off areas are still soft). Ultimately it's up to the individual competitor to decide what their threshold for risk is and either run without a roll bar or install one.

FYI Dr. Dave Barker has done a ton of Solo 1 events in his '97 Z28, which is the same generation as your car, and he doesn't have a roll bar.

[Janny]

Good to hear! :)

Thanks for all your help.

BTW, is Dave really a Dr.?:D

[Dave]

yup, he's a family physician, though I like to tell people he's a gynocologist ;)

[rpr]

Originally posted by Dave
yup, he's a family physician, though I like to tell people he's a gynocologist ;)

Better than a proctologist, methinks...

[Janny]

Thanks again gentlemen.:cool:

[Dave]

Ok everyone, here's the deal on the seat belt rule.

As it turns out Appendix N that Hanif posted is not from the GCR's, that's from the Race Regulations that deal specifically with regional racing. The GCR's are in fact silent on seat belt regulations so the Solo 1 rulebook is the definitive authority on this issue for the Solo 1 series.

However, ASN Canada is working on a set of national safety rules and regulations that will likely be completed in time to apply to Solo 1 in '04, so there could potentially be some changes to the minimum standards that must be met by all Solo 1 competitors not only in Ontario but across Canada. Christian, our Solo 1 Director, is on the ASN committee so he'll keep us up-to-date on progress in this area.

Cheers,
Dave