Safety equipment questions

[Steve-O]

Okay, i know this is going to sound like quite the newbie question but i'm hoping to run some type of restraint device as well as roll-over protection in my EG HB this year. So far i've writtne Sparco Sprints on my list as well a Sparco cam-lock narness with center strap.

can i run with just a roll bar in SOLO 1 or do they suggest to go with a full cage and which would be best for my car if it has to pull street duty?

what's a good cage/roll-bar company to buy from? (looked at Autopower roll bars and cages so far)

what's the best safety set-up overall that you all would recommend for a car that MAY have to pull street duty in addition to attending SOLO 1 and 2 races? Would, say, an Autopower full bolt-in roll cage be too much or dangerous for street use?

i've seen in some cars and also heard that a full cage makes removal of interior panels like the dash and such next to impossible. this level of safety equipment is new to me and i have no real experience with it. thanks for the help guys

[Martini Focus]

I'm installing a 6pt autopower cage in my focus this winter, I have yet to see it but I've been told that the quality it top notch.

As for having it in while driving on the street I'm lucky that the focus is such a bus that there is little or no chance that my head could come in contact with any of the bars. I will be taking every opportunity to install padding on the cage where possible to eliminate any freak contact.

Since I still plan to drive the car on the street I'm going to be taking the time to install the cage in such a way that when ever possible I can modify the panels to fit once the cage is installed.

[Dave]

Solo 1 does not require a full roll cage, since there's no door-to-door racing and thus very little chance of ever getting t-boned. I would suggest either a Autopower bolt-in roll bar or if the car isn't likely to ever be re-sold in stock form a welded in roll bar or back half of a roll cage (which is what I have in my car).

In terms of local roll bar/roll cage builders, some of your choices include CSC Racing in Newmarket, O'Brien Motorsports in Brampton, Mantis Racing in Oakville, and Raven Performance (not sure where they're located...maybe east GTA like Markham or Scarborough). The Red Pepper Racing boys build cages too, though I think they've got a bit of a waiting list at the moment. I'm not sure, but I think maybe Grisdale Racing Products in Dundas (near Hamilton) may also build roll cages. Yellowpages.ca should be a good source for contact info for all of these except red pepper. For them try tom@redpepperracing.com

For a street driven car, I wouldn't go with a full roll cage since in an EG the front half of the cage could come in contact with your head during an accident and slosh your brain around very badly. I'd go with a roll bar or halfback cage plus a good cam-lock style 5-point harness for the track and leave the OEM 3-point system in the car for street driving (harnesses are illegal on the street). You might also want to consider getting a SA-rated helmet if there's any chance of your head coming into contact with the roll bar/cage. Be sure to pad any bars within reach of your head with high density foam. A safely mounted and easily accessible fire extinguisher is always a good safety addition too.

Cheers,
Dave

[Steve-O]

Thanks guys.

So far I've looked at this and it seems to fit based on what you have mentioned:

Autopower Race Roll Bar
http://www.autopowerindustries.com/Images/Race_Roll_Bar.jpg

This is what Autopower has to say about the bar:


"Every roll bar or cage has been designed to fit specific car models so only minor modifications are necessary for the installation. Most applications are a true bolt-in and require NO WELDING....

-Designed for solo autocross and time trials.
-Meets SCCA and most race organization rules.
-Tube size and type can be selected for individual needs.
-4 point mounting with welded diagonal crossbrace.
-All necessary installation hardware included."

I just liked the idea that it's a bolt in application because I know aof a friend from Windsor who has a complete cage with the "X"-design rally bracing in the rear tub and his is pretty much in there for good. If the heater core was to ever go or soemthing behind the dash, alot of cages look like you're stuck with everything where it is. However, if bolt is does not meet regulations or it would be better to weld it in, please let me know.

This is the roll cage from Autopower which doesn't look at all bad as far as clearance provided it's padded up well:
http://www.autopowerindustries.com/Images/Bolt_In_Roll_Cage.jpg

They offer specific padding sections for all their bars as well as driver side window netting. In all honesty I'd love to have a cage not only for the complete safety factor but also for the visual effect and feel of an actual race car. But safety and function is paramount to me. I could always wear a helmet all the time :D


Hopefully I'll get to see a few street-use bars this year at SOLO 2 in Woodstock. The only one i've seen so far is Pat Yorke's and his is a full out cage if i'm not mistaken.

Sorry to keep pesterin with newb questions guys :rolleyes:

P.S. I'm the original owner of my Civic and i plan to keep it that way :). As far as i can see into my future i don't plan on selling it

[Logan]

Dave, question for you:
What made you decide on the half cage in your car? What are the benefits of the additional bracing behind the driver instead of just having a roll bar? Is that there for additional chassis strength to help your suspension?

[Dave]

Steve-O, if you're going to go with a full roll cage, I would opt for a weld-in locally built one over the Autopower. A locally built one will be cheaper (unless you opt for a higher end builder like Ronnie O'Brien, but you do get what you pay for), and a weld-in cage is a lot stronger than a bolt-in, particularly in terms of its chassis strengthening/reinforcement. A bolt-in cage will keep you safe in a rollover, but a weld-in cage will stiffen up the chassis a lot more and consequently improve handling quite a bit.

Doug, I opted for a halfback cage because I plan to go regional racing eventually so I wanted to make it easily upgradeable to a full roll cage that meets CASC specs. The additional bars on my halfback cage do also make it a lot more rigid and help with chassis stiffening for sure.

[AirCooln]

Interesting food for thought. If I may for a moment expand the scope of the thread (a.k.a hi-jack ;))

I’ve gotten a couple of quotes on a full CASC weld in roll cage, one from a Solo1 sponsor and one from a specialist in my car. Both came in very similar in price. I haven't up until now considered a 'Half Back' cage as I didn’t know they existed. Am I correct in the understanding that it’s a 'full' cage from the hoop behind your head to the rear of the car?

What was the pricing like between the two? My budget is fast being obliterated, and I might want to save a couple of bucks at this point.

I'm not going regional racing, its for my own saftey, and later a go and Targa NF.

[ADAM]

chris...why not just build the cage at ORF....i have the roll bar material for sale there ...there is 122ft of it in the storage room...contact me for $/ft pricing

we have all the tools to make the cage/roll bar yourself...

adam

[ADAM]

plus the steel baseplates as well ....

all you need is gussets and some roll bar padding to order.....and time to bend and weld it :)

[AirCooln]

Hi Adam. I get flash backs from high school. I remember my attempt to do the same in autoshop on a VW dune buggy we were building. Scary stuff. I'd be in over my head. FWIW: I did get an 'A' on rebuilding the 1200CC air cooled motor though.

For now I'm going to stick to easier things and build up some skills. Like building my dashboard...looking at those wires hanging out is driving me nuts :)

[ADAM]

you could look at it this way

maybe $150 in materials..and your time....if it comes out like shit...take the plasma cutter to it.....and it out in 5 min

...total risk.....materials and your time....

gains.....knowledge. saved money ...and a roll bar/cage

:)

[miataboi]

yeah... afterall..... a cage is a cage is a cage.....

:rolleyes:

[Dave]

Chris, you are correct in your definition of a halfback cage. It's a full cage, but only from the main hoop back. Here a pic...
http://www.hadamotorsport.com/rollcage2.JPG

When I had mine put in by Ronnie O'Brien the cost was about half that of a full rollcage. So I did save a good $1k or so by only going with the half cage.

[ice/solo racer]

Dave if your worried about smoking your head on the cage on the street just put a seat in it like my car-its so frigging low there's no way you could hit you head on the cage!!.
Of course you'll look all ricey with just the top half of your head above the door,also makes finding those apex's a little tougher.;)

[Steve-O]

Originally posted by Dave
Chris, you are correct in your definition of a halfback cage. It's a full cage, but only from the main hoop back. Here a pic...
http://www.hadamotorsport.com/rollcage2.JPG

When I had mine put in by Ronnie O'Brien the cost was about half that of a full rollcage. So I did save a good $1k or so by only going with the half cage.

that's what my friend in Windsor has excpet his goes all the way to the front. the guy who did his made it so the bars running to the front "pierced" the dash through those little diamond shaped window defroster vents at the edges of the dash.

I'm lovin the set-up you have Dave and now that i see it it's exactly what i'd like to get. that way in time if I want to go full cage it's halfway there. Obviously the back seat is useless at thhat point so i'll have to wait until I get the "Stealth Beater" (our flat black '88 Civic sedan) back on it's feet.

i'd like to run the EM Racing triangulated tie bar system (pic links below) and your cage looks like it wouldn't interfere with the tie bars at all

http://www.emracing.com/products/cpt04.jpg
http://www.emracing.com/products/cpt01.jpg

If you don't mine me asking Dave, how much would it cost me to get the the exact same half cage set-up you have from the same person who did yours?

[Dave]

Steve, those EM Racing tie bars would become completely redundant and quite frankly useless if you installed a halfback cage like mine. The cage is WAY stiffer than those tie bars, so they'd really only be there for show (which is fine, if that's what you're going for).

In terms of cost, I think I paid about $1500 for mine but that's back when chromoly was a lot cheaper and Ronnie wasn't as busy. Nowdays I'd expect the cost to be at least $500 more. Best bet is to give Ronnie a call at (416) 604-0477. He tends to answer his phone more in the evenings. If you go for mild steel (called DOM) instead of chomoly the cost will be a fair bit lower but the cage will be heavier (but just as strong). Ronnie's shop is in Brampton and you'd have to be prepared to live without the car for at least 2-3 days. Appointments need to be booked months in advance, so don't expect him to be able to do it next week. But he does build the best darn cages I've ever seen and his work has been crash tested by plenty of regional racers and it stands up very very well (which is the important part!) :)

[Steve-O]

i was wondering about those bars if they'd be overkill with a cage. I knew a cage would be better at structural support, i just figured the bars would help reduce flex in other ways than a cage would. Again, the SOLO newb in me shines through again LOL :D. Trust me though...I'm not a show guy by any means (as is evident by my battle-scarred and stone chipped hood, bumper and black JDM fenders :p

When the day comes and i do get a cage i'll definitely give your friend Ron a call and the job of building the cage. I won't be in a financial position to do alot of stuff for a while because i just got laid off in Sept, jobs are scarce right now and there's no immediate prospects for me to make a living through my business or racing my Civic :rool:

Hope you don't mind if i get the same basic set-up as yours because I've always loved the "X" bracing in the rear like you have ever since i first saw it on my friend's car.

Thanks for the info Dave. It's been a great help:)

[Dave]

by all means get the same set-up as me if that's what you want...I don't have a patent on it! :) If anyone can claim ownership of the design, that'd be Ronnie.

Best of luck with your job hunting!

[ADAM]

why do you think its brain surgery these cage guys are doing? they are just triangulated metal pipes...

there are basic layouts for cages and beyond bending and welding whats the big deal? or am i missing something?

Originally posted by miataboi
yeah... afterall..... a cage is a cage is a cage.....

:rolleyes:

[Steve-O]

this is just my opinion but heaven forbid in the event that i ever rolled my Civic on a SOLO course the cage is the only thing keeping my coconut and the roof from joining in holy matrimony.

i admit i know very little about SOLO safety systems like this. i'd prefer to have a reputable cage builder (who's done it many times and has track time with it under their belt) put one in my car as opposed to trying it myself or getting someone who's only done it a few times or is just giving it a shot to see if they can do it. not saying that everyone else sucks at it, i would just feel safer that's all. LOL it'd be hard for me to complain about a faulty cage if i'm in the hospital or taking a dirt nap :rolleyes:.

no offense intended BTW, just my opinion

[gatherer]

I'm getting a half cage installed in my hatch by Ron. I'm not getting the side bars that Dave has in his car and I'm getting in Mild Steel because it's cheaper then what dave paid but it should do the job nicely

[philip_240sx]

Originally posted by ADAM
chris...why not just build the cage at ORF....i

we have all the tools to make the cage/roll bar yourself...

adam

That's exactly what I am doing. A 4pt cage fabricated by yours truly. :) The additional chassis bracing will be welcome... the 240SX fastback flexes a bit due to the huge hatch opening.

With the MIG, plasma cutter, tubing notcher, and a hydraulic pipe bender, we have all the tools at the shop to do the fabrication.

I also have Adam's car to copy from :D :

http://www.turbo240sx.ca/carreartrunkpic.jpg

[kickster]

how much does a simple roll bar cost for MK2 jetta?

[silverwolfracin]

Originally posted by philip_240sx
http://www.turbo240sx.ca/carreartrunkpic.jpg
I just got a bar in my Mustang, I was expecting the rear supports to go to the centre like my Camaro and this picture above, but they placed them on the fender wells. If I hadn't got the seatbelt bar for the passenger as well, I would have use of one side of the rear seat.

One diagonal brace is needed for side impact on the main hoop, work with your fabricator and get the right angle made up and the rear supports positioned wear you want them.

I've driven my Camaro on the street for years with a full cage. Other than ducking a little lower on the way in (and my seat is bolted in place!) it is not a problem. The side bars can be made as bolt in ( U shaped pieces on either end that bolt closed around the front and main hoop) to make your entry more graceful.