RE: 2.0.6.d - Use only hydrocarbon based gasoline or diesel fuel. Oxygen bearing

[ADAM]

what is the ccc's take on this....as i have been banned for 2 years now using NO2 (NOS), while all along anyone using SUNOCO ULTRA 94 is also using illegal fuel as well? as it contains methanol...which is an oxygenated fuel....

any comments....? what is the ruling on this...i bet alot of solo 1 competitors are using ultra 94


adam

[ADAM]

here is a good link on methanol...look at the oxygenated section

http://www.altfuels.org/m85.html

[Shaman]

Nitrous isn't a fuel, BTW. It's a reaction agent, a catalyst for combustion which in reality simply adds additional oxygen to the combustion chamber. And the chemical derivative name for nitrous oxide is N2O, actually.

Sorry, just wanted to clarify. (go on, call me anal retentive... :) :))

[ADAM]

yes..... n2o is correct

but the rules state about oxygen additives...thats where n2o and methanol both come into play....

n2o carries oxygen...and so does methanol...even though n2o cannot itself burn as it is ust an oxidizer, and methanol can burn on its own...


see this is where the rules become all hazy...is the real intent to ban N2o because of the pressure the tank is under? if so then the fire extingushers we all carry are just as dangerous....

so.....if n2o is illegal so should ultra 94..... as one of the things that is easy to do to make cheap high octane fuel is to mix in 10%-30% methanol.... which would be very oxygenated....

[Shaman]

Hmm. Well, I can't agree with the "just as dangerous" argument.

N2O bottles often have bottle warmers connected, which can fail, and the bottles are under much, much higher pressure than extinguishers. Notwithstanding the fact that nitrous leaks are more common than people like to believe because of the pressures involved.

Have you ever seen the aftermath of a nitrous bottle explosion? It's really not pretty.

[ADAM]

i have a bottle warmer.....and in drag racing certified N2o cars...all bottles have blow off valves that blow off and vent the n2o outside the car...well before the bottle reaches a pressure that can crack it... it is 100% safe..... my bottle typically stays around 800-1000psi...as for small leaks in the lines...who cares...it takes 8 hours for the pressure in the line from the back on the trunk to the engine to leak out and reach atmospheric pressure..

the past really gave NOS a bad name with engine blowing up fears...and fire...wild power..ect...

next complaint about nos....please :)


you want danger...... poorly clamped or shitty stock fuel lines are more dangerous than NOS ever will be. escpecially in a EFI system

[Marsh]

Adam, I can't believe your comparing N2O to pump gas? You know darn well that the methanal content in Sun ult 94 is very low, or else it would corrode the fuel lines in it's users cars.

What ever the legitamicy of your argument is, your kind of comming off as a sore loser here...

[ADAM]

i am just making a point on the rules.. (a rule that i really don't agree with) ...i think the ultra 94 is 10% blended...if its so darn low than why even use it :) ....so if i want to blend a 30% fuel is that ok.... or how about a water/methanol injection system for turbo use to stop detonation? what is the rule... that is the question.... this is going to become more important because of all the engine swaps..and turbo additions...ect.....you need the octane...and there are only a few ways to get it (unless you want to start your own deadly mixing of benzene and other deadly chemicals).....and as far as the rules go now..using ultra 94 as a starting base for your high octane fuel is not allowed as it is oxygenated...

i am not a sore loser...just a poor loser....i have a fully functional direct port computer controlled NOS system in my car that is safely capable of providing an extra 200hp that i would be more than happy to use on the track...but had to go and develop a $10k turbo system to get the same power...while everyone is running on oxygenated fuel anyway....thats all i am saying....


re: NOS
well its a moot point now...as i have a turbo system...and will not be running NOS now.. but after spending 10 grand on a turbo system..when probably 2, 10lb NOS bottles would have done me for the whole weekend... at $120....and as far as i am concerned can provide the exact same power adder as a turbo, and much more reliably

the point is.....what really is the difference...who cares how someone makes the power...if someone wants to have 700 rats on a tread mill in thier car....so what...

if they have 400hp turbo motor
if they have a 400hp supercharged motor
if they have a 400hp methanol motor
if they have a 400 hp N/A motor
if they have a 400hp NOS motor
if they have a 400hp nitro motor (ok nitromethane motors fumes are poisoness...but try sucking on the exhaust of any car)

does it really matter? the reason i was given that NOS was banned is its safety issues(and there really are none), and if they would have allowed NOS i would have 100% used it in the last 2 years on the track...as i have done in drag racing...as alot of people do, on the street and the drag track...

[Shaman]

The only reason to care is safety. And nitrous isn't all that safe. If it was, there wouldn't be such stringent nitrous rules in professional drag racing.

[ADAM]

mabey...no one has looked at the rules concerning blowers...or fuel systems either....in drag racing...or flywheel protection systems...or driveline catch bars...ect.....

all which are more dangerous than NOS....and if a body like NRHA can come up with rules to use it then i can't see why we could not...look at the rule monster that solo 1 has already been created...

what happens if your 500hp V8 snaps its drive line at the transmission? do you have a catch bar...no... i do becuase i run NOS in the drags...you are gonna go for a pole vault ...is that dangerous...yes...has solo 1 addressed that? no

what if these new swapped/ bored reving at 9000rpm..... shatter one of thier flywheels? do we have any rules covering transmission/ flywheel shields? no....

do we have any rules on aftermarket EFI throttlebody injection systems.....its a good way to make an intake bomb....no

rules.... rules...rules... thats the basis of what we have been going on about in solo 1 for the whole winter...and then to ignore rules? while carte blanche saying NOS is dangerous....

why is it dangerous? and if it is so dangerous why do other RACING bodies even allow it?



but back to my question on the ultra 94 and the methanol..that is my real question....lets forget NOS for now..

[Shaman]

I do have a driveline loop, yes. I don't want to have my legs removed at the hip. I also have a clutch/flywheel shield for the same reason. FWIW.

[ADAM]

ok....thats great( but how many competitors have that?)....but it is not a rule...thats the point i wanted to make...those 2 safety issues far outweigh the safety concerns of using NOS...

it would be very easy...to grab a copy of the NHRA book regarding safety and apply it to solo 1, IF a person wanted to use NOS......

people fear what they do not know...

now what about this ultra 94 methanol issue.....

[blur]

The fact that NOS isn't nitrous-oxide (N2O) and that almost all gasoline in Ontario has oxygenators (MTBE) and/or methanol was pointed out the rules commitees years ago but it was also decided back then not to change the wording to say what it actually means.

[ADAM]

so was it decided that we can run methanol then?

[ctenche]

The rules state that any oxygen or nitrogen bearing additives are banned. Period. Does that include Ultra 94? According to a strict interpretation of the rules, yes.

But lets face it; though the wording is not precice we all know what they meant to convey.

Adam, I understand where you're going with all of this but the reality of it is that Solo 1 does not currently have a way to police this. To my knowledge at least, we don't test the fuel.

So if you want to go out there and mix your own concoction, go ahead. Just make sure you don't park anywhere near me :-)

[ADAM]

ok then.....

i am going to use ultra 94 as the base fuel and spike it with either vp motorsports103, or some additional methanol.....

the methanol route is much cheaper.... :)

[blur]

I just noticed that the CNAC Solo 2 rules allow NO2. You can use it at the Eastern Championship.

[Shaman]

Just a word of caution: I've seen the aftermath of a N2O explosion, and it really isn't pretty.

BTW, what possible use can nitrous have in autocross? Surely that would just lead to unmanagable wheelspin at those low speeds?

[Dave]

Adam, from what I can recall regarding the CCC's conversations about NOS is that we decided to keep it illegal not because of any obscure wording in the previous or current rulebook dealing with additives but because we felt its use represents a safety risk. There are simply too many seemingly well documented cases of NOS cars blowing up violently and we weren't comfortable with this. And PLEASE don't ask me to start producing examples of this, you don't have enough bandwidth to download all the pictures on the net on this subject :eek:

[Shaman]

Yep, I don't really care for the thought that a nitrous bottle could come rocketing out of the car next to me at any time. :rolleyes:

[ADAM]

ok ok...i see the fear that has been generated...just remember that we all have fire extingusihers in that car that are also under high pressure.

re: not being able to road race with NOS

i used it on the street all the time without any problems..... you muscle car guys are in the dark ages.....NOS used with a computer system feels just like a turbo except quite!!! (and anyone using NOS without a computer control system is looking for a blown up engine)

you could easily use the NOS in solo 1....
remember the computer system controls ....
1= the start rpm
2=the stop rpm
3=the amount at the start rpm
4=the amount at the end rpm......

so you can tune it to come on as hard as you want...it is a proportional computer controlled system, that pulses the solinoids to control the fuel and nitrous flow.... plus retards ignition, has rpm limiter, and low fuel pressure safety system.

[Shaman]

Dark ages? Nah. Lots of people use nitrous. I have even considered it myself. A guy I know just ran 10.2@144 with his Z06, a worked motor and a 135 shot. With bad tire spin. Probably a 9.5x run if it would hook.

It's relatively safe with nitrous in well-setup machines, but there is always a risk. Nitrous is also a very strong combustion agent, and it doesn't compare well with fire extinguishers - which are also not under 1900 PSI the way many nitrous systems are.

The worst part of nitrous is that a lot of people aren't aware of how to set it up as safely as possible, and don't check their systems for leaks, etc. on a regular basis. Any oxidizing agent under that kind of pressure needs constant safety measures.

I think it's not the product in general, it's all the bad things that can happen if it's not properly maintained.

[ADAM]

steve,
nos tank is pressurized to a max of 1200psi

it works best at 800-1000 psi

everything is dangerous if not maintained...i mean what if a wheel falls off, or the fuel line cracks....

drag racing seems to be able to deal with it ok....why not road racing?

i am more afraid of getting hit by a car while marshalling, than i am riding in my car with a full nos tank...

i am not sure why leaks are such an issue...it takes fuel and a spark to make nos dangerous and if fuel and sparks are already there you already have a fire...small leaks are no big issue....may get cold on the hands but thats about it. (now a major leak is bad due to the fact they add sulfer into the nos to make it poison)

[Shaman]

Actually, a lot of drag events no longer have nitrous. If you're caught with nitrous, you're out of the events. Talking about pros, that is.

I've always understood that 1600 PSI is the best pressure to go with nitrous. Maybe I'm wrong.

Leaks, on the other hand, are a HUGE issue. Leaks usually occur into the engine manifold at the check valve. Which means that your intake grenades, sending shrapnel everywhere. The danger has little to do with the gas leaking into the open air.

[ADAM]

the solinoids are designed to malfunction in a closed position...and you never leave the bottle valve open unless you are actually racing..

[Shaman]

Don't tell me... tell the people that don't know what they're doing. :)

[Theo]

Excessive exposure to n2o cam lead to impotence.

What's considered excessive exposure? I don't know & I wouldn't like to find out.

If that's not a good reason to avoid using it I can't tell you what is.

[ADAM]

better than excessive exposure to methanol which absorbs into your skin, and turns into formaldihyde and can can blindness and insanity :)

[Shaman]

I don't think the word "sanity" is in the vocabulary of alot of those guys using methanol anyways...

[Theo]

I guess I'd rather be a blind lunatic with a raging....

I think you get the picture. :D