CNAC and PAX Indexes

[Marc]

I noticed that the new rule book has added a PAX system to CNAC rules which where not there before. I quote:

Section 5.5B The PAX index shall be published at the beginning of each competition year as extrapolated from SCCA National
PAX index with adjustments for Super Stock category. This index shall be reviewed annually.

Since our new prep point system is very different from the SCCA system. How are the "SCCA" PAX* indexes being applied and "extrapolated" to fit our rule set? Who and how is the SS group's PAX index being tweaked?

*P.S. According to Doug Gile (SCCA SOLO 2 representative at the SCCA office), SCCA does not support a PAX system of any sort. This was created by a goup of "Professional Auto (X) crossers (PAX)" who wanted to things thier way.

[gatherer]

a PAX system is required to level the playing field to determine a overall winner for the event ... without a PAX system you only have class winners like at CNAC 2003 in red deer... but for the national competition thats ok since your only there to compete against your own class...

[Marc]

Yes, I understand how and why a PAX system is used. I wanted to know specifically, how it will be implemented in the new CNAC system. Where do these index numbers come from?

[Gord]

Originally posted by gatherer
a PAX system is required to level the playing field to determine a overall winner for the event
Yes, but how do you compare apples to oranges? CNAC doesn't even match SCCA at the stock level, let alone SS/SP.

PAX is one wiggly can of worms already...

-Gord

[gatherer]

Originally posted by Gord
PAX is one wiggly can of worms already...


I agree it is something I've never really liked all that much....

however I think the idea behind using SCCA PAX numbers is the test base .... the number of competitors is greater in the states by a long shot and the PAX numbers are determined by looking at all SCCA events (I believe I could be wrong) ... yes the prep schedules are different but you will get some people that prep to the max of the class and some that don't so I think it evens out.

[Marc]

That is the problem with the US PAX system. It is based on SCCA classes and mods which are worlds apart from ours.
According to their rule book,
Stock- is very stock. With only the front sway bar and shocks being allowed to change.
SP - Extensive supension mods alowed, no internal engine mods, brake pad and rotor brands changes only.
P- is an all out tube frame gutted race car with redesigned suspension, full race engine,etc...
As you can see thier Sp class is not as well prepared as our SP class but more like our SS class. The SCCA P class is what we would be in Mod.
How can we match thier PAX numbers to our classes with these big differences?

[gatherer]

Originally posted by Marc
That is the problem with the US PAX system. It is based on SCCA classes and mods which are worlds apart from ours.
According to their rule book,
Stock- is very stock. With only the front sway bar and shocks being allowed to change.
SP - Extensive supension mods alowed, no internal engine mods, brake pad and rotor brands changes only.
P- is an all out tube frame gutted race car with redesigned suspension, full race engine,etc...
As you can see thier Sp class is not as well prepared as our SP class but more like our SS class. The SCCA P class is what we would be in Mod.
How can we match thier PAX numbers to our classes with these big differences?

ok point taken....

(personally I didn't realize the difference was that huge....)

maybe we should scrap a regional championship and everyone just run for the top honours in their respective class then?

[Marc]

That is the way SCCA does it. With the overall champ being crowned at the Topeka KS nationals. Otherwise you are a class champion, isn't that enough?

[gatherer]

Originally posted by Marc
That is the way SCCA does it. With the overall champ being crowned at the Topeka KS nationals. Otherwise you are a class champion, isn't that enough?

good point but I think most competitors (me included) would like to compete for an overall championship. While yes I will also be competeing for a class championship whats nicer?

solo 2 class champion of H stock

or

solo 2 overall champion

personally I like the second one best ...

[finboy]

if we had the pleasure to have the overall champ decided like the topgun shootout..

it would be clear and simple, no formula to worry about

otherwise.. keep the class winners and don't worry about an "overall" champ


dt

[Marsh]

God, I thought we finally got over all the BS and griping about the new rules. But then Marc had to come in and stir the pot again. Gee thanks Marc!

Look if you don't like the rules then either drive the SCCA events, or go play in one of club-level pretend series.

[Chris P]

Prelude boi woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.........or maybe he doesn't like snow. hmmm :p

[miataboi]

kinda classic.

the guy wins solo2 champion 2 years running... based on class rules.... and class competitors.... and suddenly.... the other "clubs" are "pretend series"!

typical.

To be perfectly honest....
Regionals for me..... kinda suck competition wise...
PITTL has MORE cars.... in each class... and I have WAY more competition... and for me... winning in PITTL is WAY harder... and more rewarding than a regional class victory.

to each his own.
:rolleyes:

[Greg F]

Originally posted by miataboi To be perfectly honest....
Regionals for me..... kinda suck competition wise...
PITTL has MORE cars.... in each class... and I have WAY more competition... and for me... winning in PITTL is WAY harder... and more rewarding than a regional class victory.

Are you going to be in CSP this year? I'm just trying to decide if I should take my chances against the Miatae or the WRX's.

[miataboi]

Originally posted by Greg F
Are you going to be in CSP this year? I'm just trying to decide if I should take my chances against the Miatae or the WRX's.

Not likely CSP.... ALTHOUGH... there are a TONNE of F/I'd Miatae in that class this year...

run... don't hide.
:D

[Dave]

Wes, you're a saint :)

[max attack]

Regionals suck competition wise??

You wouldn't think that way if you were in BSS(amoung others) the last 2 years-then again it probably would have sucked for you to have to run agaisnt me!!!!!!ha ha ha jkg btw,well kinda;)
Thats ok you can keep running your "pretend" pitl events,no one forces anyone to run in an organised series that pits as evenly matched as possible vehicles together so the better drivers stand out.
I differ from you in that I don't like running in club events with lousy classing and running against a huge range of vehicles that don't make sense-you really can't compare drivers very well and for me thats what its about.

[miataboi]

Originally posted by max attack
Regionals suck competition wise??

You wouldn't think that way if you were in BSS(amoung others) the last 2 years-then again it probably would have sucked for you to have to run agaisnt me!!!!!!ha ha ha jkg btw,well kinda;)
Thats ok you can keep running your "pretend" pitl events,no one forces anyone to run in an organised series that pits as evenly matched as possible vehicles together so the better drivers stand out.
I differ from you in that I don't like running in club events with lousy classing and running against a huge range of vehicles that don't make sense-you really can't compare drivers very well and for me thats what its about.

That's 100% a factor of the # of cars that are FWD.
For us "purist" rwd guys... (;))
...there is very little competition.
Not many running around...


as opposed to the vast array of "econoboxes" and family sedans that you guys hop-up.

;)

Although tongue in cheek... it's the truth.... RWD guys are striving to look for good comparable competition.In css, cs etc... there are so few competitors... that it's hard to tell how good a guy really is! Same with whatever class that is that CockRacingGuy runs in....

FWD cars will have TONS of competition.... it's the more "obscure" car layouts that suffer.... and that seems to be... 4-dr fwd sedans and rwd cars...
Sad about the RWD thing....

[max attack]

I guess you didn't notice my name change-its Tom the copper corolla guy!-so much for bashing on a fwd guy huh?.

I'm not sure what your getting at with your comments about Marsh?-yes his car is a little odd in c family against mostly rwd pony cars,then again so's my car in b family,but the guy can certainly drive a car and you can't knock him for that.

Oh and btw I'll put my little underpowered "econobox" against your vastly superior and oh so manly sports car anytime,oh what the hell I dare you to try and catch my crx that'll be ready for spring(its fwd and must suck but I'll chance it;) )

[finboy]

Originally posted by max attack
I differ from you in that I don't like running in club events with lousy classing and running against a huge range of vehicles that don't make sense-you really can't compare drivers very well and for me thats what its about.

I don't know tom.. (still adjusting to your new name)

for the regional series topgun shootout..

can you honestly say that all the particpants were "the top guns"

personally... i don't think so

its tooo bad no one won the superseven.. we could have
some nice shootout cars for everyone to play with..

one can dream.... maybe this week..... 30million!!


dt

[max attack]

I'm not saying anything about the quality of shootout contestants-they made it in and I didn't-only me to blame(and the freaking weather!;)).
I'm going to keep trying untill I do make it in however:cool: ,I should start running a decent stock class as it would seem to be a little easier to get a spot(sucks that only one car per class can get in as BSS owned the majority of top spots-behind some guy named Tong in a girly car!).
As for my new name-just think of my attacking the course type of style,seems fitting no?

[finboy]

Originally posted by max attack

I'm not sure what your getting at with your comments about Marsh?-


take a peek at who and what kind of cars were up against him in his class

were they well prep'd cars??

i don't know....

Marsh is a fantastic driver, look at his website.. it tells the story right there.. he's got a ton of trophies

lists his mods, to the prelude.. its all there.

he won the overall, why wasn't he in the shootout?? isn't that kind of wacked??

shouldn't the overall winner automatically be a participant in the topgun shootout??

his videos are wicked.. gives fantastic footage for being smooth

mad props... he's done a lot for wosca


dt

[max attack]

I don't need to take a peak at who was running in his class-very well aware of the differences in his and alot of the other classes.
But like I said the guy is a good driver and I'm not about too bash him or anyone else,you make a good point in that the series champ should automatically be included in the shootout as some classes are very tough to make it thru into the finale-some aren't however.
One more thing-Marsh by his own admission IS the cocky racing guy,2 titles in a row you know.

[DanielForest]

Hi guys,

We are now using pax index in Quebec for 10 years. There is no more classes, just categories (stock, street prep, prep, mod) and in each category winners are determined by the pax index. BUT we don't use the index to compare categories. Stock classes were always winning...

In the first years, Quebec had classes that were more CNAC leveled and we adapted the PAX index using their SP index and minus 10 for our SS and + 10 for our prep class. BUT there were a lot of complaints because we didn't had the same rules (FAQ against SCCA) and some allowances were favorizing some cars against "others" (there were the "others" complaining...).

So that's why Quebec is now using stock and street prepared SCCA rules AND PAX/RTP indexes.

So I would say, YES, PAX indexes aren't perfect, especially with a different set of rules than the SCCA. But on the other hand, unless you want to reinvent the wheel, they are the best you can find!

Daniel Forest
Montreal, Canada
DSP X1/9 (damn, I hope they will move me to FSP!)