Paxing Cone Penalties

[13inches]

When applying PAX factors to a driver's FTD (assuming their FTD run had a cone on it), is the raw time paxed and then the cone penalty added, or is the total time including cone penalties paxed all-together?

e.g.
Raw 55.279
Penalty 2.000
Total 57.279
Pax factor: 0.827
Pax score = (A) 57.279 * 0.827 or (B) (55.279 * 0.827) + 2.000

[Ziploc]

Most of me wants to say no. Since PAX is there to equalize car performance. And the penalty should not be effected by how good/bad your car PAX factor is.

[1337trix]

^ i agree... penalty shouldn't be affected by car/driver/class

[Snizzoop]

Hmm...good question. I never really thought about it before.

Giving it thought now, I would have to say that adding the cone penalties after the time has been PAXed would be the correct method. My reasoning is that (as noted above) PAXed scores are supposed to put the CARS on an equal playing field.

Looking at the PAX values, an HS car only gets a 1.582 second penalty for each cone hit vs. the 2 seconds an AMOD car gets.

[Travis]

Definitely B. The cone penalty should be PAXed so that everyone is penalized the same on their PAX time. If cone penalties are not paxed, then they effect each class differently, ie a cone penalty would be less significant in HS than in AMod (as snizzoop pointed out).

Now if each cone penalty is equal when it comes to pax time, then they'll appear unequal on their raw times, ie:
raw total = raw time + (#cones*2/PAX), ie, 1 cone penalty = 2/PAX :p

[max attack]

No way,regardless of the car the penalty for whacking one should remain at the same 2 seconds after corrected.

Since pax determines way to much already the higher classed cars would get screwed even further.

In fact it should be the other way around,speaking from experience the cones come up WAAY faster in a mod car than a stock class so its much harder to dodge'em all.Right now I'm over 10 seconds faster then the HS class winners,with luck next year will be closer to 15 seconds clear.

An HS driver should have ample time to see and miss the upcoming cone.;)

[redneckdzl]

I'd think B is the proper way, the penalty shouldn't be figured into the Paxing, it should be on top

the value of the penalty shouldn't be affected by the paxing

that would mean some of the higher paxed cars would get more cone value then the entry level cars

[darcyw]

i think someone's opened another can of worms.

darcy

[13inches]

Not too many posts on the subject, but a few opinions shared none-the-less. Start at post 100.

http://forums.wscc.mb.ca/showthread.php?t=20169

[Snizzoop]

Not too many posts on the subject, but a few opinions shared none-the-less. Start at post 100.

http://forums.wscc.mb.ca/showthread.php?t=20169

Not sure what you're linking to...I get to a thread with only one post in it...not 100+.

Giving this some more thought, the situation where you are PAXing cone penalties should not occur very often. Your fastest run would have to be one that includes a cone.

At the last regional event we had 80+ competitors, and in only four instances (~5%) did a competitor post their best time with a cone penalty.

Event 1 - 9 of 55 (Long course plus early season "rust")
Event 2 - 18 of 100 (Picton is a LONG course...I'm not surprised by the increase)
Event 3 - 9 of 94 (Picton is a LONG course...I'm not surprised by the increase)
Event 4 - 1 of 105 (and that one only ran two runs...DNFed on the other)
Event 5 - 3 of 46
Event 6 - 0 of 61
Event 7 - 4 of 84

So 44 of 545 best runs included a cone penalty...about 8%. So since it doesn't happen all that often, it might not be worth the hassle to fix it. I'm sure that the majority of those are by less experienced people; likely ones that aren't contending for a class or overall win.

[13inches]

You get to a thread with 116 posts, it just displays in a format you aren't familiar with. Change the display to linear mode if you can't figure their default mode out.

[1337trix]

There was a long "discussion" about this before the event, and the official decision was to not apply PAX to cones.

Section 3.4.9 of the ASN rules state that a "two-second penalty will be assessed for each such pylon". It doesn't say anything about H stock cars only paying a 1.58 second penalty for each cone. But, neither does it talk much about PAX, so the decision was made to stick with a strict interpretation of the ASN rule.




Cone penalties are part of your final time, and should be PAXed. That's how Rick Ruth, creator of PAX, does it, and that's how the SCCA does it for Pro Solo




grey area for sure

[max attack]

Pax is intended to equalize the cars-Period.

Doesn't matter what class the car is in if it whacks a cone,the car didn't drive into the cone by itself the driver caused it.Unless your going to wave ANOTHER magic wand and start paxing the driver as well the 2 second penalty should be for everyone.

[Kreutz73]

like Ariss said, this is kind of a moot discussion. Pax only get applied to each driver's best time for an event... it's very rare that someone's best time actually includes a cone penalty - unless you're Ariss! :eek:

But that said, all penalties are added to raw time THEN paxed... that's how all the software I've seen works, that's how SCCA, CASC-OR and CAC rules work and their timing software (AFAIK anyways... i'm just going by what i've noticed). If this is true, I'm not sure it's realistic to even consider that it might be possible to change.... maybe I'm wrong.

If it was realistic to change then the fair way to do it would be to apply the same factor to penalties that we do to raw time... but when doing this you wouldn't discount the penalty or simply add 2 seconds after pax ajustment (2 options in the poll) you'd actually markup the penalty by the pax factor.

A penalty of 4% of your run works out to 2 seconds for 50 second lap... if this is an a-mod car then CSP would have to run 58.4 raw to match the pax time and a 4% penalty would be 2.3 seconds or 2 / .856.

[max attack]

I agree,the chances of it coming up are rare.

I'm certainly not the brightest guy in the world but I can't grasp why it needs to be so complicated-pax the raw time then add the penalty.Job done,move along.
I think I get a little less then average coneage but this irritates me simply on principal.