Autox cars, performance/$

[Ujjwal]

Hey everyone,

I'm hoping I can dip into the wealth of knowledge you guys have instead of learning through trial and error or creating assumptions based on a spreadsheet of results.

What are the potentially cheapest rust free cars (easily resellable) that will be street driven (i.e. no trailer) one can buy that has the potential of winning overall pax in autox? I think I know the usual suspects but I'd like to know what mods each car would need as well to get the running costs in order.

Here's just an example of the format of suggestions I'm looking for:

95 Miata, 250,000km, $4000
Mods: Seat ($200), steering wheel ($200), (RS3 street tires, hoosiers?), rims? ($800), non oem camber alignment?($300), suspension? ($1000)....

~Total - $6500

Yearly running costs [brakes, tires, oil, etc..] - $1200




Ultimately, the idea is to resell a car after a year and have spent the least amount to be competitive through the year.

[Gautreau]

Miata is definitely the obvious choice. You could also pick-up an older civic for pretty cheap, but it might be hard to find one rust-free. As far as the re-sell, you know you won't be able to get back what you put into the car, right? So if you bough a Miata for $4000 and spent $2500 on it, you wouldn't be able to sell it for $6500. Your best bet is to watch the "for sale" forum here. That way you could get a car that somebody has already done the basic mods on.

[1337trix]

best bet would be a type-r or cooper S and just put rs3's... win overall by stock class PAX, but this would raise the budget

you have to take a look at what PAX is doing though and take advantage that way... if they play with the multiplier it could ruin your chances..

people went back to stock class this year cause they played with pax in the SS classes for the worse

[Saj5DJ]

Just gone down the same route mate and came to largely the same conclusion you did.

I was lucky enough to find a previously autocrossed '97 Miata with sways, coilovers (not great ones, but hey) torsen diff and a CSC rollbar. Timing belt and transmission fluid all fresh. I paid more than you're looking at there, but it's a newer car with 133km on it, so not bothered.

Unless you have problems fitting you won't need a seat, steering wheel is preference but won't be E-Stock friendly if you're looking to make it smaller.

You can either choose to open up suspension mods, mount up streets and run ST2 (or STU if you have a torsen) or mount R-comps and run in CSS.

If you find a bone stock one and are happy to touch nothing but front sway and shocks then you can run ES with r-comps on stock dimension wheels. But sure that'd be no fun ;)

Planned expenses for my STU setup are:

RS3's: $650 ish
15x9 6ULS: $800 ish
Poly bump stops: $60
2 syn oilchanges: $75
HP+'s: $200
Alignment: $120 ish
Adjustable Endlinks: $150 ish

If you're only worried about PAX times then I guess ES with Koni Yellows or similar and A6's/V710's is the way to go. You'll need a tire trailer though.

[13inches]

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5024/5616690119_dd661d7024.jpg

[Ujjwal]

Cool. With the miata, I'd most likely have to mod the seat/steering wheel as I don't fit comfortably. Taking those mods into account, what would be the cheapest/most competitive class to shoot for?

Also, I'd very much consider a co-drive if you guys know anyone with a competitive setup that is willing to sell some track time. I have a good driving resume.

[13inches]

Seriously though, PAX isn't very friendly to Miatas in stock or SS classes these days. You can still do it, but it will take a healthy, well-prepped car and a top driver to pull it off. Classes like HS, GS, DS, and FSS are a lot more reasonable if you can find the right car to set up. An FSS Civic or Neon wide, short tires would be killer with that classes PAX.

[Saj5DJ]

PAX is what is, if you're on it and it's a well setup car for the class you can run competitively. As for as Miata's, I've seen CSP, CSS and STU NA's / NB's winning regional and local events on PAX this year. Only other rust free, street friendly, budget auto crosser I can think of would the likes of a good HS Civic/Neon/2.5 RS etc.

It's a crap shoot picking what next years hot PAX cars will be anyway. Looking at previous results won't help with the massive spread in driver ability and car prep, even within classes, and the factors can shift.

My personal take is pick what's most fun and affordable to drive then apply the best tweaks within the rules from there.

[mikewolf]

My miata was a pax contender this year (not with me driving). It had $300 coilovers, a set of $600 wheels and 13" r888's. It did have a different steering wheel and seat. It will be faster next year. I already have one codriver, but could possibly have another.

[max attack]

Well if PAX actually worked you should be able to drive well in any class and win pax.;)

[darcyw]

my driving skills aside (which really aren't "skills" at all), i'd say for your budget the answer is...
1999/2000 honda civic SiR. Good, unmolested, rust free examples (non winter driven) are out there- you will have to be patient and keep your ear to the ground to find them.- cost $6500. Stay in H-stock.

Buy service manual ($10) on ebay.
Change ALL fluids your self with quality synthetics ($150)
Change your rear compliance bushings with Hard Race ($200)
Buy Hankook Rs-3/ kumho XS etc- $600 OR
R-comps $1000
Buy spare stock 15x6" rims $350
Replace all brake rotors/pads (hawk HP plus) and lines with stainless- $600
Buy large rear sway bar - Progress makes one for $250
Buy neon underlights, "*****" sticker, and bad ass body kit with big rear wing for mega downforce- $priceless

I know this, because i learned the hard way about unnecessary modifications that put you into higher classes (and higher pax) before you really "get it".

either that or buy a miata and question your manliness...unless you sawzall it to pieces in the interest of lightness and then you're just bad ass.;)

good luck.

darcy

[yangsui]

The Civic SiR is a wicked car. I had my ass handed to me by an SiR at last year's nationals.

Are you sure the SiR is an H Stock car? G Stock is more appropriate, no?

[sjd]

The Civic SiR is a wicked car. I had my ass handed to me by an SiR at last year's nationals.

Are you sure the SiR is an H Stock car? G Stock is more appropriate, no?

It's an HS car. I love mine and agree it could make a very good autox but I still prefer my MX-5.

[engsr]

Buy a stock Integra Type R and get another set of wheels with A6s or V710s staggered. If you plan to sell the car anyway, you can get most, if not all of your money back when you sell the car. Therefore, all you spend $$ on is wheels and tires. Keep in mind you don't want to overpay for a showcar/garage queen - it's a Honda, not a Ferrari. A good car is out there, just need to be really patient and do your homework.

Consumables will be the same for any other car, but the best part about an Integra Type R is you don't have to change anything. Of course, to make it even better, you could go with Koni Race shocks ($1000) better brake pads (Hawk DTC-30 fronts for $150), and an alignment ($??). But other than that, you really don't need to do anything to make the car faster/better. In my opinion anyway ...

The only real problem is you need to garage this car and never drive it anywhere else. :( Oh, and the possibility of NOT wanting to sell afterwards. :p

[Saj5DJ]

either that or buy a miata and question your manliness...

darcy

if that's an issue, being PAX competitive is perhaps not the highest thing on your priority list. Miatas aren't expensive, but it'll still eat into the budget for your presto chango operation. ;)

All the cars suggested are great. Look forward to seeing you out autocrossing next year man.

[Tashko]

Well if PAX actually worked you should be able to drive well in any class with a well prepped car and win pax.;)

Fixed that for ya! :)


If you don't need a street car and it's only for one year you want a car, do what you can to find a co-drive. It's the most cost-effective way.

[max attack]

Fixed that for ya! :)


If you don't need a street car and it's only for one year you want a car, do what you can to find a co-drive. It's the most cost-effective way.

Thanks,now can you make PAX go away with a ninja rule edit?.

[Kreutz73]

Well if PAX actually worked you should be able to drive well in any class and win pax.;)

Not to hijack the thread but... the only problem we have here with pax is that we don't have near enough people at the same level of driver skill and experience to compare equally with each other. Pax assumes, a top driver and a well prepped car for the class competing against a top driver and well prepped car from another class and so on. We have good drivers in under prepped cars and well prepped cars with ok drivers... how can we even get close to a perfect pax system? our problem is us... not pax.

p.s. you are an example of a good driver in an underprepped car. build a Vancouver Special and you'll win pax. :p

[Kreutz73]

find a tight Mazda Protoge (or Miata if you can handle the heckling and lack of cargo room) and run in stock class... get an alignment, some shocks, lightweight wheels and some good rubber and you're all set. Just don't get an automatic protoege. :D

[max attack]

Paul I agree in theory,the problem is I simply believe with every fibre of my being pax has no place in crowning a series champion.Pax should at best be a conversation piece for feeling better/or worse about your performance relative to others.
Btw my entire car cost me less than 1 wing on the vancouver special,I'm plenty happy with the cars performance to date and it WILL get better.Even when/if I take top pax I know it still means jack.;)

[ShadowFlyer]

I'll stick to killing $500 cars...

[Saj5DJ]

Not to hijack the thread but... the only problem we have here with pax is that we don't have near enough people at the same level of driver skill and experience to compare equally with each other. Pax assumes, a top driver and a well prepped car for the class competing against a top driver and well prepped car from another class and so on. We have good drivers in under prepped cars and well prepped cars with ok drivers... how can we even get close to a perfect pax system? our problem is us... not pax.

p.s. you are an example of a good driver in an underprepped car. build a Vancouver Special and you'll win pax. :p

Agreed. Its the best we've got and far from perfect, fact is there isnt a perfect or near perfect solution. So, drive what you wanna drive, how you wanna drive it and enjoy yourself. Sure, a decent driver could probably just run an 11 WRX with 275 wide A6s next year in DS and obliterate pax, but he'll know how he won and so will we. It's a $5 trophy at the end of the day and for the majority of us, pax works well. For MOD guys, well, it's just gonna be megabucks to pull off pax wins. It has to be that way otherwise we mere mortals have to sit and watch some trust fund playboy win everything with some super duper, prepped to the max AMOD style car.

You've got an awesome, well driven, fun as hell, 100% sure fire FTD weapon, pretty sure i can say we all think its amazing. The rest of us need to play too though in our DD's etc

[rustysteel]

I'm enjoying the thread here, good conversations. I agree with the Miata, SIR and Protege. All would make for a great fun ride and be cheap to buy and maintain. I'm enjoying beating up my '93 Civic CX hatch, just tires and go for me right now. I agree having equal driving skill would make for a perfect PAX world but it doesn't exist and shouldn't matter since having fun and getting our G-force fix is all that is really necessary. The only other car I might suggest is a MINI Cooper as the prices have started to really drop. Might be something I'll get for next year. (I say in a dream like state). The best investment you can make is experience and driving skill once you have that you can start to mod and update your vehicle.

[Ujjwal]

Paul I agree in theory,the problem is I simply believe with every fibre of my being pax has no place in crowning a series champion.

So for an extremely results oriented person like me, which class would be the best to compete in? Or rather, how else would you create a ranking system for who is the best driver or is that impossible? Having fun and just participating may rock someone else's boat but it doesn't mine, I need a equal playing field with fierce competition :p

Tashko, will try to find codrive as first priority.

[BMWWW.]

So for an extremely results oriented person like me, which class would be the best to compete in? Or rather, how else would you create a ranking system for who is the best driver or is that impossible? Having fun and just participating may rock someone else's boat but it doesn't mine, I need a equal playing field with fierce competition :p

Tashko, will try to find codrive as first priority.

Suit up and go karting.

[Saj5DJ]

So for an extremely results oriented person like me, which class would be the best to compete in? Or rather, how else would you create a ranking system for who is the best driver or is that impossible? Having fun and just participating may rock someone else's boat but it doesn't mine, I need a equal playing field with fierce competition :p

Tashko, will try to find codrive as first priority.

Like it or lump it, results are by pax. If you go with any of the cars listed in this thread, you'll have one capable of winning pax, all else being equal.

[1337trix]

karting would be in that budget range and would be 100x more competitive and a trillion times more political

i left karting to go autocrossing... lots more fun and much better people

[Taylor]

Focusing only on the subject alone (ignoring pax)... from my research there's two answers actually, CRX and Miata.

Any car you modify, expect, at least, to lose every cent you spent on mods unless you're fortunate enough to sell to another motorsport person.

Power to weight on a stock EF CRX is better than an M1 Miata. Si is about 200lbs lighter.

You can also buy them more cheaply. Though rarely in equivalent condition to a miata. However parts are as cheap or cheaper. You can find a lot at a wrecker that'll still go on a CRX.

As you modify it, it should keep up with an equivalently modified miata.

The caveats here are FWD and resale. Also for FTD's you're looking at an engine swap (K24A2) which I suspect the regional rulebook penalizes much more harshly than adding forced induction to a Miata. But you can get pretty good bang for your buck. the NA motor will be better to drive also, and make a decent street car. It will also make a pretty good track car too.

But yeah, if you want to sell it after a year.. Miata. But don't underestimate a well setup CRX. I was blown away when I got to drive a solosprint competitors at the HADA Autox series shootout about 5 or so years ago. When I saw the time I rolled in with I asked if I missed a gate or something. Just stunned.

Anyhow those were the cheapest routes for FTD cars I could come up with.

As a side note, pax and mod classes. You can go pretty insane in mod and most people in mod, don't. Not sure our region has seen too many fully prepared mod cars and I don't know where we get the PAX numbers from (perhaps still from SCCA?) but if so, our courses are shorter, slower, tighter in general compared to any SCCA course I've seen.

And yes, it does suck to see someone win purely on math using numbers more or less picked out the air. This isn't to comment on any one overall champion over another either. Just, I get it and agree. I much prefer the shootout method, of course you could get unlucky and your competition could have some good experience in the car/type of car used... which makes it all the sweeter if you beat them in it. :P

[max attack]

So for an extremely results oriented person like me, which class would be the best to compete in? Or rather, how else would you create a ranking system for who is the best driver or is that impossible? Having fun and just participating may rock someone else's boat but it doesn't mine, I need a equal playing field with fierce competition :p

Tashko, will try to find codrive as first priority.

If you want actual competition and not just a theoretical math quiz simply look thru last years results and look for the biggest class that you think you can afford to build/buy a car for.
Shootouts are wicked fun and should determine the series champ no question,I've done a few and have never won(usually top 3)but I've walked away knowing without a doubt I wasn't the best driver.I'd rather that than never really knowing.

Oh yeah I'd be remiss if I didn't suggest ice racing for cheap wheel to wheel thrills,the smallest class is rwd but the fwd guys usually usually have close to 25 cars per race.I've been doing it for 16 years,several different cars and classes(some guys are still running the same car from when I started,not into that at all).If you have any interest at all pm me with questions,I have no problem sharing everything that I've learned.
For a taste,this is my '91 civic S1 that won the class and overall titles in 2010,went autox'ing as well and won the tlmc mod class and was waaay closer than it should be to getting ftd-all on a dead stock 200+k engine.Oh yeah also did a time attack with it,I would consider it a candidate for a run at pax.
http://youtu.be/RRuEEVfqHxs

[Pete@SCB]

... Stay in H-stock.

.....Change your rear compliance bushings with Hard Race ($200)

Just so you are aware, this is not Stock legal. The rulebook is pretty explicit about what is allowed and what is not.

I like the SiR for HS, but I still think that a 92-93 Civic Si HB is a faster HS car. The 99-2000 SiR is a softly sprung car. The MINI Cooper does well in the US, but I think our courses are harder for it.

To figure out the top Stock cars, look at the US results - it will give you a good indication of the cars that the fast guys are using.

If you want the most fun for the dollar spent, an older, and not necessarily top level Stock car can be made to be a pretty good SS car. You won't have to spend bigger dollars on the right car for the class. This where the SiR would shine more.

If I were spending your budget today, I probably would try to find a nice Civic, and prep it for FSS. A DSS car is going to be more expensive, as you will likely be in cars like the 2006+ Civic, ITRs (even though its strength is in a Stock prep level), Cooper S' (same here).

For you to do well against PAX, you must have a fully prepped car, drive well, and be on the fastest tire. As soon as you start adding lots of mod possibility (like moving to SP or MOD), you end up having under-prepared cars, and one cannot hope to do well against PAX. We simply do not have enough competitors to be perfect on PAX, but it is probably the best choice right now. I have seen a number of different Overall points systems, and they all have their failings and loopholes.

[elementZ]

come into FSS. we could always use more econo boxes. :D

[gOt_rally?]

One more vote for the miata. Mine was bought for 5500 in the states with 80,000km. Coilovers, bolts ons, 15x9's with rs3's. and alignment later the car is running up at the top of regional times, and I was able to steal one FTD away from Paul when his hoosiers were at the end of their life.

[The Flash]

Suit up and go karting.

karting would be in that budget range and would be 100x more competitive and a trillion times more political

i left karting to go autocrossing... lots more fun and much better people

Everyone should start their competitive uhm ...hobby/career/whateverthehell with karting. Politics for a year is nothing compared to learning what it takes to make a slow vehicle put in fast lap times. The lessons you learn there are invaluable. It's also the cheapest way to see if you really have the bug and the commitment... and it's an extra year to save for a +1 on any car you would consider this year.

Plus, buying a miata feels like cheating ;P ...*flame-on*

[Gwoody27]

Ultimately w are all competing vs ourselves in any car but for Ujjwal I think a more high powered car running in a stock class would be the best chance of overall success taking pax into account. Having seen "The Ujj" drive for the last couple of years it would seem that a Miata, good as it is, is not best suited to his driving style. Try a yellow Mustang :)

[Ujjwal]

Actually Gary I've always wanted a miata, I just couldn't financially risk the fact I'd be able to drive it comfortably after Modding the seat. Pax is such a touchy topic lol. Hey Gary, have you seen my codrive FS ad wink wink. Mustang is the cheapest rwd competitive car for solo1.

After owning a civic and prelude, I got tired of driving boring cars or cars that just can't win. I've put in my time of just having fun, now its time to have fun and win. Is that so wrong? No matter how good of a driver you are, you need a machine that can win.

[gOt_rally?]

Actually Gary I've always wanted a miata, I just couldn't financially risk the fact I'd be able to drive it comfortably after Modding the seat. Pax is such a touchy topic lol. Hey Gary, have you seen my codrive FS ad wink wink. Mustang is the cheapest rwd competitive car for solo1.

After owning a civic and prelude, I got tired of driving boring cars or cars that just can't win. I've put in my time of just having fun, now its time to have fun and win. Is that so wrong? No matter how good of a driver you are, you need a machine that can win.

Looks like we have another miata convert :D Trust me when I say you won't regret it. I went from a 2007 Subaru WRX STi, to my lil underpowered miata and love it 3 times more. Once you have the money I recommend a good set of coilovers like 949 racing's xida clubsport. I have them and even though they are pricey, once you recover from the surgery to sell one of your kidneys on the organ black market its all smiles from there on in.

[BMWWW.]

Actually Gary I've always wanted a miata, I just couldn't financially risk the fact I'd be able to drive it comfortably after Modding the seat. Pax is such a touchy topic lol. Hey Gary, have you seen my codrive FS ad wink wink. Mustang is the cheapest rwd competitive car for solo1.

After owning a civic and prelude, I got tired of driving boring cars or cars that just can't win. I've put in my time of just having fun, now its time to have fun and win. Is that so wrong? No matter how good of a driver you are, you need a machine that can win.

Go Miata then. Nothing like umpteen other Miata drivers for competition at any given event--for motivation, and to benchmark your own progress. I hope to be making that jump in the near future.

Going fast alone is boring, true story.

[max attack]

Going fast alone is boring, true story.[/QUOTE]

I disagree,I'm far from bored when driving my car.:)

[shanehutton]

Going somewhat quickly alone is boring, true story.

Fixed it.

As Tom said, going fast alone is probably still a great deal of fun. I wouldn't know though as I only go slow alone.

[max attack]

Well apparently I'm only going "somewhat quickly" as well.

[shanehutton]

Yes you are. Judging buy your PAX results I am not even sure how that thing makes it around the course under it's own power. I suggest a turbo. :p

[max attack]

Yes you are. Judging buy your PAX results I am not even sure how that thing makes it around the course under it's own power. I suggest a turbo. :p

Funny you should mention that,my new turbo is being delivered to the event this sunday.Next year is going to be interesting,stupid fast or a string of broken parts-probably both.:D

[-bbTeg]

Buy a stock Integra Type R and get another set of wheels with A6s or V710s staggered. If you plan to sell the car anyway, you can get most, if not all of your money back when you sell the car. Therefore, all you spend $$ on is wheels and tires. Keep in mind you don't want to overpay for a showcar/garage queen - it's a Honda, not a Ferrari. A good car is out there, just need to be really patient and do your homework.

Consumables will be the same for any other car, but the best part about an Integra Type R is you don't have to change anything. Of course, to make it even better, you could go with Koni Race shocks ($1000) better brake pads (Hawk DTC-30 fronts for $150), and an alignment ($??). But other than that, you really don't need to do anything to make the car faster/better. In my opinion anyway ...

The only real problem is you need to garage this car and never drive it anywhere else. :( Oh, and the possibility of NOT wanting to sell afterwards. :p

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