Fuel and Ignition Mapping

[Martini Focus]

Does anyone have a good resource a book/forum or website?

I've got the theory down pat but I just can't put it to use when looking at the maps.

It just hasn’t clicked yet if you know what I mean.

Thanks

[DirtyLude]

http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0760315825/qid=1076969563/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1_1/701-0047126-4208359

What system are you trying to tune, and how are you getting your correction factors. Do you have your own wideband UEGO, or are you using a dynos?

[Martini Focus]

I'm running an EEC Tuner on an EEC-IV computer. I have a LM-1 wideband which should give me a headstart and reduce the dyno time cost.

I have a good starter map but it needs some work yet to get it right. I want to get a really good idea of whats going on before I head to the dyno this spring. I figure two or three, two hour sessions should have it running the way I want.

[DirtyLude]

I don't know much about ford EFI. How much tuning can you actually do? Do you have full access to the fuel and ignition maps? When you get to the dyno you should be looking for power only, you should be able to get a good safe map from street tuning only with your LM-1 UEGO. Can you datalog? Datalogging is really the key to street tuning, especially if you don't have someone to drive the car around for you while you tune.

[Martini Focus]

I've got access to everything that's important. The LM-1 does full datalogging so with the starter map I should be able to get it going.

I'm going to get a copy of that book. I just need another angle to make some of this info stick.

[ADAM]

it really comes down to endless hours of fiddling around on a dyno......it really depends how perfect you want your map to be, and what is the tuning designed for ..drag, street, road race?...ect....

with a base map you will be close..it depends on the time you want to spend playing around with the map....and how detailed the map is.....ie...rpm spread for data inputs..and other control functions the map is incharge of...

[Martini Focus]

Adam, it looks like I'll be tossing the EEC-Tuner in favor of the SDS system.

One of my friends just installed it on his car and we got a great open and closed loop tune done in about 2hrs on the dyno.

The tune will be for AutoX use maybe some Solo1 if I can scrape the funds together. At the moment my plan was to tune the car for low end TQ to get out of the slower corners rather than big top end speed.

[ADAM]

i am using a SDS extra injector controller in my car (2x480cc) to supplement the 4x550cc main injectors , they have good low cost reliable systems that are easy to tune...

[Martini Focus]

Originally posted by ADAM
i am using a SDS extra injector controller in my car (2x480cc) to supplement the 4x550cc main injectors , they have good low cost reliable systems that are easy to tune...

Cool I was wondering what system you were using. I like the SDS since it alows me to get rid of the VAM without messing with MASS Air. I'm hoping the loss of the VAM will help me with my turbo lag issues.

I hope to have a look at your car this year since I want to run a solo1 event or two. Looks like one hell of a project.

[ADAM]

i am not using a standalone system like you want to however...

i have it easy ..a company makes new ECU's for my car that are based on a mass airflow system, and use a ford cobra MAF (how that for all you mustang weasels :) )

all i had to do was plop in the new ECU, wire the ford MAF up, and drop in new injectors...voila....

however the ECU was tuned for the street at a 12:1 A/F ratio which is WAAYYYY to lean for road racing...i was getting 1100deg C peak EGR's ..so i just use the SDS extra injector system to overspray the whole ECU program to drop the A/F ratios into the 11's...i now have nice juicy EGR's of 825-850deg C ...right where they should be


standalones are GREAT...IF you have the time patiance and dyno tuning money to throw at them....

expect at least 15 hours on the dyno MIN to map a great map up....and make 100% sure you road test the car and get some EGT numbers..cause the dyno and the race track are two vastly differnt type loads and heat loads on the car

[Martini Focus]

Thanks for the great info, I've got a bunch of Dyno time booked for the end of the month and then some in April which I hope should get me a pretty decent map. To test it on the street/track I've got a LM-1 Wideband to datalog along with my trusty autometer EGT gauge.

After all this work the car has to run better than it does at the moment. After all throwing money at a problem is the best way to solve it right? :rolleyes:

[AirCooln]

I'm curious. In my GrandPrix, I also had air fuel problems. I bumped up the fuel pressure to essentially oversray the ECU just like you did with an extra injector. That only worked for a very short amount of time. The 02 sensor would just read rich, and cut the time the injector was open, defeating whole excersize.

Was that a problem for you too?

[ADAM]

i would suggest going to japanese auotomotive(yoshio), as they can map A/F, boost, and power in real time...and place a RPM restricted load on the engine...which is key

IMO its the best set up in TO...by far

[Martini Focus]

I've heard stories of the mystery man who tunes cars, didn't he do JoeT's?

Do you have any contact info?

[ADAM]

http://www.japanese-auto.com/

[ADAM]

not sure about his personal tuning capabilities...i really could not understand what he was saying at all...but he knows how to run the dyno, and as long as you can interprete the dyno data...thats all you need...

[ADAM]

maybe is GM engineering.... :)

at WOT my engine does not look at the o2 sensors output..only MAF voltages..that correspond to the ECU map...

you also may have inadvertantly over pressurized the injectors so that in fact they open less...and deliver less fuel..this usually starts to occour near 65psi+ fuel pressure or thereabouts (depending on injector size and design)

also my extra injectors...are RPM and boost dependant (they vary fuel according to rpm and boost) and are infinatley adjustable....

the problem with just increasing the fuel pressure is that on a stock regulator it raises the pressure at a 1:1 ratio.... you would need a rising rate regulator to enact any real changes via fuel pressure

not that i have ever looked into a gm system..so i am guessing based on my nissan experiance


Originally posted by AirCooln
I'm curious. In my GrandPrix, I also had air fuel problems. I bumped up the fuel pressure to essentially oversray the ECU just like you did with an extra injector. That only worked for a very short amount of time. The 02 sensor would just read rich, and cut the time the injector was open, defeating whole excersize.

Was that a problem for you too?

[DirtyLude]

Not a fan of SDS at all. Their systems are far too limited. Programming fuel and ignition maps on those handhelds is a pain, and lack of datalogging is a real hassle. The only real bonus is the plug and play feature for your car.

With the LM-1 wideband and tuning on the street, you shouldn't need more the 2 or 3 hours on the dyno. You should have air/fuel pretty well done before you even hit the dyno. All you'll be looking for is power at that point.

If you want tuning help, you can try Neetronics as well. I'm not certain what experience he has with SDS, though. http://webhome.idirect.com/~neethlin/default.html

Adam: I have a ERL MF2 injector controller here that has more tuning options than your SDS unit. You can have it for free if you want it. Probably not that great an offer if you've already tuned the SDS.

[ADAM]

next tuning round i will be shutting down the extra injector controller..and going with 4x72lb injectors...


i agree SDS is basic.....but low cost as well....

[Martini Focus]

Originally posted by DirtyLude
Not a fan of SDS at all. Their systems are far too limited. Programming fuel and ignition maps on those handhelds is a pain, and lack of datalogging is a real hassle. The only real bonus is the plug and play feature for your car..

That's true but my alternative is a system that gives me full access that is honestly a little more than I can take. I consider myself a pretty smart person but I've spent two months going over that software without much luck.

I think in this case the limited or "basic" system may be better for me.

[DirtyLude]

I can get an E6k for only $100.00 USD more than the SDS plug and play unit and have a better running daily driver car. Of course that requires that you wire it up yourself and have the ability to tune it. I even have a DIY EFI kit here that cost me $350.00 USD that has sequential injection, wideband support, auto mapping, datalogging, a hole load of crap.

You are absolutely right, the most important part of a programmable EFI is support and knowing how to tune it. With a plug and play solution I'm sure there are others with the same setup that can help you out. If this is mostly a track car, you don't need alot of complexity anyway.

Good luck with it, and hope to hear more.

[njansenv]

Which DIY system is capable of sequential fueling? I may be interested. I have the MSnEDIS sitting here at home (with a Techedge WB), and am a HUGE fan, but wouldn't mind hearing about this system....

Nate

edit: WRT the SDS system, for many people, it has PLENTY of features. With added features come added complexity, and for some, it simply isn't worth it. I know of a few people who got rid of their TECIII's for that very reason, and went SDS....

[DirtyLude]

I have the SDR-Maxi. It's DIY in the sence that you need to solder it all together and build it yourself, but it's not a free source EFI system like the MegaSquirt.

http://www.efikits.com/

Unfortunately they don't supply these kits anymore. They've partnered with an American company and moved on to a fully built EFI systems. I guess the support issues when dealing with build it yourself kits was too much for them. They still offer support for what was sold, but no more kits.

[ADAM]

with a race system batch and sequential pose little differences in end power results...


Originally posted by njansenv
Which DIY system is capable of sequential fueling? I may be interested. I have the MSnEDIS sitting here at home (with a Techedge WB), and am a HUGE fan, but wouldn't mind hearing about this system....

Nate

edit: WRT the SDS system, for many people, it has PLENTY of features. With added features come added complexity, and for some, it simply isn't worth it. I know of a few people who got rid of their TECIII's for that very reason, and went SDS....

[njansenv]

I realize that, but with obscenely sized injectors, drivability 'can' be better with the sequential setup. Also for cams with high overlap, injection timing can be more critical, especially with independant runner designs. Just curious. For my purposes, two batch ignition is perfect.

Nate

[DirtyLude]

I might port the Megasquirt and MS AVR setups over to the microcontroller that I'm familiar with. It's an interesting project and I don't think it's all that difficult. I'm sure I could get sequential injection using a more powerful micro. I'm already building a dash display and datalogging module. Once that's complete I'll probably move on to a full fuel and ignition controller and see how far I get.

Though sequential isn't necessary for a pure race car, it's still a nice to have. Like njansenv said, for large injectors, idling and startup are smoother. It also gives better gas mileage if you're worried about that kind of thing after a full day racing. Proabably not. :)

Of course now that I have it I wouldn't do without it on a street car. It's so noticably smoother with part throttle changes and low rpm.