Overall champ discussion

[max attack]

Since the move to scca ruleset thread seems to have died off(btw is it official yet?)I thought we could dicuss overall options.
Obviously we could go with the scca option of not crowning overall champs or we can come up with a means to do so if the majority wants it.

My opinion should be well known if your paying attention.:)

Curious what others have to say.

[Ujjwal]

Bring a high powered go kart and everyone pay $10 a run to compete in it.

[max attack]

But I do bring a high powered go kart,going to take more than $10 a run though.While most of you think prepping a car is which wheels to buy I spend HOURS and HOURS in the shop building mine-a hundred dollars per run wouldn't even cover my time.

[gOt_rally?]

It ain't broke, it doesn't need fixing. PAX though not perfect is the closest thing we have to a equalizer.

PAX takes into account fully prepped cars, driven by very capable drivers.

Can't afford to run a fully prepped mod/SP/P class car? Don't run one if you want to be provincial champion.

[Saj5DJ]

It ain't broke, it doesn't need fixing. PAX though not perfect is the closest thing we have to a equalizer.

PAX takes into account fully prepped cars, driven by very capable drivers.

Can't afford to run a fully prepped mod/SP/P class car? Don't run one if you want to be provincial champion.

Agreed.

[1337trix]

i think you should dump overall and go each class level, but if thats not an option i agree with both the above comments

[Snizzoop]

Can someone post every possible way to determine an overall champ?

I think it was mentioned in the "other" thread, that this is the only sport where different classes are compared to each other. You don't see ALMS crowning an overall series champ.

What did they do at the Canadian Nationals this year...did they crown an overall winner?

The only thing I know is that once I started looking at trying to optimize my car for PAX (trying to get it down to FSP/DSP) as opposed to just going out and beating the piss out of it (and being fastest FWD car consistently and in the top ten RAW times), my desire to compete has actually been crushed. The jump from SP to MOD in our rules is too big in my opinion...essentially ALL (commonly) swapped Hondas get stuck in MOD.

Personally, I think I have to just go back to not giving a shit about PAX/overall, and go back to beating the piss outta my car. It sucks knowing that I literally have no chance of winning ANYTHING though. I may as well stay in Barrie...organize 10+ events per year and just have fun.

Excuse my rant.

PAX sucks...I don't see any other viable way to determine the overall...stick with PAX.

[Saj5DJ]

Think it went something like this Arris:

a) As is currently.

b) Class level champs only. (Which is kinda as is currently, but just taking away the overall championship race. Don't really understand this one, we would have 60-70 drivers and 20 odd "champions")

c) Prep level champs for Stock, SP, Street Touring, MOD/FSAE etc using PAX within these prep levels. This is how they ran the Interprovincial Cup. Decide overall with PAX or:

d) b or c with a shootout at the end for Prep or Class level champs to get overall.

[Taylor]

Prep level would be a little more interesting and probably jive most of the time with the level of prep happening in each level.

A shootout from there would be icing.

I just don't feel PAX is representative in practice. In theory (and perhaps in the US with 10 times the population and a whole lot more disposable income along with cheaper access to aftermarket parts) it works. Here, not as much. So as suggested, the higher prep levels need to suck it up, or we should have a rulebook that's more representative of local motorsport, drivers and car prep.

Having said that, that's probably more a job for Club level events. What it does mean though is if any one person puts the money and time into prepping a mod car it'll be game over for the rest of them. :)

Catch-22? The grass is always greener?

[Snizzoop]

i think you should dump overall and go each class level.

I'm starting to lean toward this...or maybe I was all along.

Dump the overall champion, and put more emphasis on competing within your prep level. Use PAX to determine prep level champs...as has been agreed to by most, PAX disparity seems to be less of a problem within prep levels.

Our sponsors can then award one set of tires to the highest placing competitor running their tires in each prep level. Sure...the sponsors would have to donate more tires, but that's a good thing!

[elementZ]

c) Prep level champs for Stock, SP, Street Touring, MOD/FSAE etc using PAX within these prep levels. This is how they ran the Interprovincial Cup. Decide overall with PAX or:

I think that would give a nice balance. You would be against cars with the same type of mods (unless you run MOD/FSAE).

[Saj5DJ]

I don't really think there's a lack of emphasis on winning your class at the minute.

There's a lack of Internet forum debate about it because it's not contentious, but as far as the actual competition goes, class winners still shoot for the class win and get their plaque and congrats etc. The overall runs alongside that, but I don't think it takes away from it.

How do you get more? I don't think the sponsors will give us 5 sets of free tires.

[elementZ]

I don't really think there's a lack of emphasis on winning your class at the minute.

There's a lack of Internet forum debate about it because it's not contentious, but as far as the actual competition goes, class winners still shoot for the class win and get their plaque and congrats etc. The overall runs alongside that, but I don't think it takes away from it.

How do you get more? I don't think the sponsors will give us 5 sets of free tires.

I think that depends on how many are in your class. If there are only 1 or 2 of you, then overall is the only thing you've got.

[Saj5DJ]

I think that depends on how many are in your class. If there are only 1 or 2 of you, then overall is the only thing you've got.

Yep, or if you're dominating the class to the extent that the class trophy is an "I showed up" award.

I wouldn't agree with taking away part of the competition because folks are arguing about it over the Internet.

[Snizzoop]

That's fine...I'll be arguing in person on the 12th.

[Snizzoop]

How do they determine an overall champ at the Canadian Nationals?
How do they determine an overall champ at the Interprovincial Challenge?
How do they determine an overall champ at the SCCA Nationals?

EDIT - Found the answers...looks like by PAX for both the Nationals and the IPC.

[gOt_rally?]

We get one set of tires,

We cannot have a shootout with stock cars racing mod cars

There is a reason why nationals go to PAX

A overall needs to be crowned for tires, and its also nice to have a overall provincial champ especially since in class competition is so scarce .

PAX is like democracy, everything needs to line up for it to be completely fair towards every, in reality you can't cater to everyone, but it is by far the best system we have.

As much as I feel your pain Harris, given that if we move to scca rules i will be placed in SSM which has a much shittier PAX then STU. But no one put a gun to my head and forced me to buy a turbo, and no one put a gun to your head and told you to sway motors.

[Snizzoop]

Pawel, I agree, no one made me do anything.

I modded my car following the typical mods Honda guys do to their cars. This was long before I took autoslalom somewhat seriously; I was out to have fun, and a fast car was fun.

While I don't like PAX, I do have to admit that I see it as the only way to take a full season into consideration and put all competitors on an "even" playing field.

[gOt_rally?]

Harris wouldn't selling your existing motor cover the costs of a stock classed motor?

[Snizzoop]

I could probably get one for free.

[Kreutz73]

-canadian nationals use pax

-IPC... don't recall... but they have a cool 'lead foot award :D

-scca nats don't officially do anything, but use pax to round up some shoot out contestents and have fun... this year was the 'gumout' shootout.

to be honest... i liked the shootouts we used to do. qualifiers were picked by acheiving a min 95% time in their class. all the qualifiers showed up to DDT and ran their own cars... paxed times and took the top 2 from each prep level... then had a shoot out in the shootout cars.

then again... the current pax system has generated a fair bit of competition... might not be as broken as the FEW people that don't like it think. seems to get Tom pretty fired up. :p

in the states, at local and divisional events, pax goes to anyone... it's pretty fair. some clubs have a top driver in a top mod or fsae car, others have a top driver in a top stock or ST car. Key is... that to win pax you need to be a top driver and have a top car. IMO there's nothing we can do to fix pax if we don't fix the fact that we don't have a consistent level of talent and our talent comes and competes in underprepped cars.

[mikewolf]

I think we should still do overall champ by pax. I think it would be nice to recognize prep level champs as well. However, I hope that our prep levels are stock, ST, sp, SM(SSM, SM, and SMF), P, and M. :D

I won't be there to argue in person as I will be at work.

[darcyw]

It ain't broke, it doesn't need fixing. PAX though not perfect is the closest thing we have to a equalizer.

PAX takes into account fully prepped cars, driven by very capable drivers.

Can't afford to run a fully prepped mod/SP/P class car? Don't run one if you want to be provincial champion.

hear, hear.

darcy

[max attack]

A good amount of feedback in a short time frame...nice.:)

Paul my only real problem with pax is that you never actually KNOW if it worked by being right or lucky.
If the shootout comes back as it used to be I'm allready sold,the gumout or whatever it was called also works for me to a slightly lesser degree.

Crowning a prep level champ with pax is cool with me as they are close in actual times so the pax variations are minimal,not so when I have to outrun a stock class car by over 10 seconds on a 45 second course.
My intent right now is to at least run the ddt and picton events(both are too early in the season,I always seem to have car issues during them) and see how I pax out on courses that are actually close in course lenght,average speed and corner radius to a bigger scca event.Imo our typical course don't cover enough ground at a high enough average speed to make the scca pax numbers accurate(haha;)).
I'm doing my part to further the speed of the car of the winter,the car has been improved slightly at nearly every event this year-its now ready for some more power and MUCH stickier shoes.
As much as I dislike the use of PAX for anything other than amusment I'm a stubborn bastard and have chosen to do what I can to hit #1 pax sometime next year.

[Kreutz73]

SCCA nats in the last couple years have been mostly 2nd gear courses for my car... there are plenty of courses up here that I can easily play with 3rd... even 4th. DDT and Picton are faster and longer than the SCCA national courses.

I don't think you are too far off pax given the room you have for improvment with your car.

[max attack]

I've watched L O T S of scca events including nationals and I bet the average speed is higher compared to our typical courses regardless of being mostly 2nd gear for you.We seem to have more large speed change ups that require corner exits well down in the power curve of 2nd gear for most-ok the hondas can go to 1st and ning ning their way to the next gate.:)
Yes I can very easily see another 3 seconds next year compared to this year(but need 5 or 6),unfortunately for me I lose approx a second of pax time with the scca rule change over now.
Like I said,I'm up for a challenge-which my car to get to AMod pax level will be.I don't want to build another car thats more in line with a-mod build practices though(little things like lighter,shorter and narrower)so I'll keep plugging away with this old turd.:D

[Taylor]

how I pax out on courses that are actually close in course lenght,average speed and corner radius to a bigger scca event.Imo our typical course don't cover enough ground at a high enough average speed to make the scca pax numbers accurate(haha;)).


Exactly my issue with PAX. The events vary too much in design, speed, length, etc...

Big day? Organizers may setup a small course to get more runs in. SCCA, I believe, does 4 runs. Period. I'm certainly not saying I only want 4 runs. But you can see how trying to maximize value by increasing run count can impact course length.

[Snizzoop]

Exactly my issue with PAX. The events vary too much in design, speed, length, etc...

Big day? Organizers may setup a small course to get more runs in. SCCA, I believe, does 4 runs. Period. I'm certainly not saying I only want 4 runs. But you can see how trying to maximize value by increasing run count can impact course length.

I'm trying to change this next year at TLMC. I'm planning to use a "two lap" style of course at a few events where the second lap is slightly different from the first. The course will obviously be longer, therefore the run times will be longer. I expect that we will only get five runs at most though. In the end, the actual amount of driving time should be the same.

I've already got a few courses designed. Tom, I think you'll like it. ;-)

[max attack]

Arris that sounds good too me,to be honest with all the running back and forth to marshal I've lost interest after 5 runs on a hot day and don't usually go much if any faster anyways.

[TOYSRUS]

I've watched L O T S of scca events including nationals and I bet the average speed is higher compared to our typical courses regardless of being mostly 2nd gear for you.We seem to have more large speed change ups that require corner exits well down in the power curve of 2nd gear for most-ok the hondas can go to 1st and ning ning their way to the next gate.:)

AS Tom and Taylor have alluded, any PAX in Ontario based on SCCA numbers is pointless. That being said, segregating class groups and paxing them separately is a step in the right direction and my opinion has always been a shootout is the best way to determine an overall champion. Tom, you have missed some epic course this year in Picton!! At our last club event, a stock C6 Vette on street tires took FTD by almost 3 seconds! (86.xxx vs 83.xxx) Your car should PAX "well" there and I look forward to seeing you next year..... I have heard however the Russians have been secretly working with Toyota to create a car so fast it is going to make your bike powered go-gart look like a moped!:D

[finboy]

rock paper sicssors

or use the shock machine


back in the day there was the topgun shootout what happened?

[max attack]

Hey Bill where have ya been?,you work in municipal govenment so I know thats not whats keeping you busy.;)(I'm kidding btw,I spent 4 years in it and Lisa's nearly 25 years in)
Can I request the picton regional be closer to july next year?:)

Oh and what kinda project is underway by the russians?(I have no clue who your talking about)It will need to be something pretty special(if its using automotive based drivetrain it'll be too heavy) to outrun my car on a big course if the turbo install goes well.My power to weight dips down into the 4lbs per range.

Finboy the shootout died due to a lack of donor cars for the shootout portion.

[Snizzoop]

Do you think there would be any donor cars offered up if the owner were to be compensated somehow?

[Saj5DJ]

or use the shock machine



Winner!

Unfortunately given Paul K's appetite for voltage, I don't think the result would have gone any different.

[mikewolf]

I'll offer up a miata shod with 4 space saver spares. If your lucky I will remove the decorative vinyl covers.

[max attack]

I'll offer up a miata shod with 4 space saver spares. If your lucky I will remove the decorative vinyl covers.

I'm afraid that wouldn't be fair,a car with no grip and 16 years of ice race experince gives me an advatage.;)