speedbleeders vs. ????

[finboy]

afaik.. there are a few ways to bleed the brakes

-two person and a beer method

-using a vac pump (on sale for 63 bucks)
http://gateway.canadiantire.ca/driver.php?fileid=2534374302401569_1408474395348027_845524442132105_

-using a speedbleeder or similar product
http://www.speedbleeder.com/

-using a compressor and pressurizing the system

but i was shopping at princess auto and they had something like this for 3 bucks and change (on sale)

(canadian tire part number 25-6286-6 if the link doesn't work)

http://www.canadiantire.ca/assortments/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442289959&FOLDER%3C%3EbrowsePath=2534374302192103&FOLDER%3C%3EbrowsePath=2534374302401507&FOLDER%3C%3EbrowsePath=2534374302401569&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302401569&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474395348027&bmUID=1084340699229

and was wondering if anyone has hooked up a tiny insty bitsy check valve (one way valve) or a small PCV valve and rigged it to a regular clear vinyl tube, so it should/could be used as a cheap one person set up???

think it would work? anyone already try something like this??

please share

tks

dave t

[Marsh]

Actually mechanics I know (namely Mike Patterson) have told me to just pump a normal brake bleeder like a speed bleeder. Then get an assistant to do the last few pumps and make sure there are no tiny bubbles left.

I've also discovered (the hard way) that suction systems and speed bleeders don't work together. The vinly tubes simply crush before there is enough vacuum to open the speed bleeder valves.

The most common problem to all the systems but one are the fact that air some times leaks past the threads of the bleed screw. This can only be avoided by only opening the screw when there is positive pressure. So either traditional two man pumping, or a positive pressure bleeder. Which is why I've been meaning to make a positive pressure bleeder for the last several months.

[finboy]

to make a positive pressure system, you'd have to compress air into the brake rez.. no???

for a home made system, you'd need a air compressor, and frankenstin some parts together..

i was just wondering if...

anyone has used a check valve with the regular vinyl tube method, as a ONE person bleeding system

in other words.. cheap/easy/one person method


dave

[rmicroys]

I've successfully bled my brakes with just a nipple, hose and a jar. No fancy bleeders, no vacuum, no pressized stuff. Simply have the hose go upwards from the bleed screw and then U over and down in to your catch bottle. The air only goes up. I have bleed my brakes by myself this way for years, and never had any issues.

If you're going to use a spring loaded bleeder, I would use Earl's - not the ones that require the thread compound.

[philip_240sx]

I swear by the 2 person method of bleeding brakes. It's simple and reliable.

The 'bottle' from CT that you refer to can be used in conjunction with the 2 person method to catch the excess fluid. I wouldn't rely on it for 1 person bleeding however. When the pedal is released, air can still be sucked in via the bleeder screw threads or the imperfect seal between the clear tubing & bleeder nipple.

[finboy]

good input fellas..

I know the best & cheapest way is the two person method.

just searching for a cheap/easy/one person method


was thinking a small pcv valve might work... to 'reduce' any
air from entering the system on the upstroke.

i've also found looping the tubing once- works like a P trap which helps


any other suggestions, otherwise stuck with the two person method.


dt

[slucas]

In Carroll Smiths book Engineer to Win he says he reprints a treatise on brake bleeding by Mac Tilton,but my copy doesn't have it. Has anyone else noticed how easily these books fall apart? Ironic.

[philip_240sx]

Originally posted by finboy
was thinking a small pcv valve might work... to 'reduce' any
air from entering the system on the upstroke.

i've also found looping the tubing once- works like a P trap which helps

dt

I've tried the one person method with the CT bleeder kit. The problem I had was air being sucked in where the clear tubing attaches to the bleeder nipple. It's hard to get a perfect seal.

I rather not risk severe brake fade on the track because of poor bleeding. I always take the time to do it right.

[ADAM]

i would suggest the 2 man buddy system is the best.... your life is on the line with brakes..no point messing around

ps we have tried all the different ways....and they suck..except for the tried and true..flare wrench..and "push...release" 2 man operation..

no crude jokes HADA weasels...!!!

:)

[Greg F]

Hey, I was just looking into this recently and decided on the Earl's speed bleeders. I was even gonna post about it in case it might be useful.

I found that the vacuum pump is great for bleeding the master cylinder while on the car, but not for the calipers unless the seal between the threads on the bleeder screws and the calipers is leaktight, as air would get ingested in the system.

For the vacuum pump to really work on the calipers, I had to remove each screw and apply fresh sealant--a very messy job with short-lasting results.

I also used the el-cheapo one-man CT method quite well, but it too needs the seal between the bleeder and caliper to be leak proof. And it also needs a leak tight seal between the nipple & rubber fitting; rubber fitting & hose, and hose & cap!

I looked at the Russell speed bleeders, and while they are strong, they require a leak proof seal as well, or else air would get ingested through the threads.

Russell even make it known that you must apply/replace their special sealant for proper results. The seal material they sell appears to be Vibraseal, which is being phased out at my place of work due to poor effectiveness, especially for loosening and re-tightening of fittings.

The Earl's design excludes air regardless of the condition of the seal at the threads, but since I'm still waiting for my set to arrive :p I can't comment on the effectiveness of the spring in maintaining the seal between the plunger and the seat in the caliper.

The Earl's design looks weaker, but with careful use, should produce better results.

Edit: while some guys might prefer the two man method, I favour the one man, one woman method, but that's just my choice. :D

[negative$flow]

Originally posted by slucas
In Carroll Smiths book Engineer to Win he says he reprints a treatise on brake bleeding by Mac Tilton,but my copy doesn't have it. Has anyone else noticed how easily these books fall apart? Ironic.

Sorry it's way too long to quote , at least for me . Basically Tilton recommends the hose on the end of the bleeder . You keep the end of the hose submerged in the bottle of fluid . You have someone in the car pumping the brakes until clear fluid is all that is coming out . You proceed to do all calipers then check for a good pedal . If the pedal is good you are done , if not crack open each bleeder screw while your "resident gorilla" pushes on the pedal . He does not recommend bleederballs or other self bleeders because of the unkown quality of the brakefluid in these containers , nor does He like to open the bleeder under pressure suggesting that it could cause cavitaion creating more air when the pressure is released.
I do not wish to get into a discussion over bleeding methods , I am merely summarizing what Mac Tilton wrote for Carrol Smith .

[Carguy]

I've had good results with Russell speed bleeders and always achieve a good hard pedal feel at the end. I figure that if air entered the system the pedal feel would be mushy. I have yet to receive a new set for my RSX so I used the two man method before the Solo 1 school. Pedal feel was the same as before bleeding the system. I expect to have it improve after I install new speed bleeders.

[Marsh]

Originally posted by finboy
to make a positive pressure system, you'd have to compress air into the brake rez.. no???

for a home made system, you'd need a air compressor, and frankenstin some parts together..

dave

It can be done with parts from Home Hardware: http://www.bmw-m.net/TechProc/bleeder.htm

[Martini Focus]

Originally posted by Marsh
It can be done with parts from Home Hardware: http://www.bmw-m.net/TechProc/bleeder.htm

Marshal you just saved me $200 I was going to buy a Motive bleed system but looks like I'm off to Home Depot at lunch time.

I'll let eveyone know how it turns out.:cool:

[GR8 Ride]

Actually, I've run the Motive pressure bleeders on both my BMW racecar, and on the Mustang Cobra.

I'll HIGHLY recommend the Motive units....no other method (vacuum, 2-man method etc) has gotten me the solid, confident brake pedal that the Motive pressure units have done.

It's an easy, one person operation this way, and it's also a surefire way to bleed the master cylinder as well.



Pat

[Greg F]

Originally posted by GR8 Ride
Actually, I've run the Motive pressure bleeders on both my BMW racecar, and on the Mustang Cobra.

I'll HIGHLY recommend the Motive units....no other method (vacuum, 2-man method etc) has gotten me the solid, confident brake pedal that the Motive pressure units have done.

It's an easy, one person operation this way, and it's also a surefire way to bleed the master cylinder as well.



Pat

You wouldn't happen to know how effective it would be on a non-functional ABS hydraulic system would you?

[Greg F]

BTW, the Earl's speed bleeders aren't so foolproof after all. Here's how my installation went a few weeks ago...

Part 1:
The brass plunger on only two of the four bleeders could bottom out on the housing when pressed by hand. It turned out that some of the coils of the springs were at right angles to the axes of the springs, and limited the travel of the plungers' shafts. Not all of the shafts were the same length either, so Earl's may have tried to tweak them.

I fixed them all by sandpapering the ends of the shafts until they were short enough to work properly. Note, if the plunger does not bottom out on the bleeder's body, your brakes may fail!!! You need to address this failure mode.

Part 2:
One of the bleeders leaked fluid past the threads in a big way. Damn!!! While this is not a problem for the bleeding efficacy, it can mean that brake fluid would end up on painted suspension components, rims, tires, etc.

The solution is to add some thread sealant or Teflon tape to the threads before installation.

Part 3:
This is where it gets ugly... I think all my bleeders are FUBAR'ed from over-torquing. Over-torquing causes the soft brass plunger to get extruded into the bleeder's steel (or SST) body. The symptoms of this condition are a stuck/sticking plunger and brake fluid flowing backwards through the hose in-between pumps of the brake pedal while bleeding.

The solution is to get a new set of bleeders and not make the same mistakes as before. :p


Summary:
If I were to redesign the bleeders, I'd add sealant to the threads, make the plunger from steel, control the shaft length & spring installation procedure, and specify a maximum torque setting on the package.

[rmicroys]

All this talk of speed bleeder technology leads me to one, and only one conclusion. Unless you can afford a recirculating braking system on your racecar, stick with the good old tried and true standard bleeder screw.

[John Powell]

I also tried a set of these bleeders, and the "bleeding things" were no damn good. I tried to bleed my brakes and couldn't get a firm pedal, so I loaded the car on the trailer and took it down to Red Line Racing in Vars. They couldn't find anything wrong with the system but they couldn't bleed the brakes and get a firm pedal either. I then told them that I had installed speed bleeders (Russell, I think), and their first question was "Do you have the old bleeder screws with you?" I gave them the old bleeders to put back in, and the brakes bled perfectly. When I asked them what was going on, they told me that speed bleeders frequently let air back into the system, and they never use them, and especially not on their oval track car. My speed bleeders are now sitting on my desk to remind me of the old saying "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is." :mad:

[CobraStang]

I have the Russell Speed bleeders as well. They work better on paper than they do in practice.

I invested in a vacuum bleeder that I use in conjunction with the speed bleeders. I just crack the bleeder slightly open, not even enough to allow fluid to pass. Then, I crank up the vacuum. Because the bleeder is only slightly open, no air passes through the threads (I have also added teflon tape to the threads, but this needs to be redone after numerous bleeding operations). At this point, no fluid passes either. Then, after opening the fluid reservoir, I hop in the car, and push the pedal to the floor at least 6-10 times or even more. I top up the fluid as needed and repeat if necessary until the fluid looks fresh.

This is easy and fast, but the vacuum bleeder was a bit pricey (around $70 at CTC if I recall). This was especially helpful when I had to bleed the master cylinder last year (no speed bleeders there!). So personally, I have to say that the vacuum bleeder works best, and is worth the investment for those who bleed their brakes regularly.

[finboy]

forgot to post..

here's another way

http://www.gofastlab.com/s2ki/product.php?productid=249&cat=40&page=1

[John Powell]

Somewhere on some forum (and in some space and time :confused: ) I read that someone had built a pressure bleeder for about $25.00 (could have been US $) from:
- one small cheap pressure herbicide sprayer
- one economy low scale pressure guage
- one brass tee fitting to mount the guage
- one brass fitting mounted into a spare master cylinder cap for his car
- several small hose clamps, and
- several short lengths of hose.
And it worked.

His only advice was to limit the pressure to 10 psi (?) as too much pressure will cause foaming in the brake fluid.

If I ever find this thread again, I'll post a link.

[sjagman]

pressure bleeding requites a bit more pressure for ABS systems typically around 25 PSI. To make fluid is forced through all the system components. I hve the Motive power model. BUt you can make one too! It is just the master cylinder cap adpater is the tricky part the rest is a no brainer.

Steve

[ScotcH]

Originally posted by John Powell
Somewhere on some forum (and in some space and time :confused: ) I read that someone had built a pressure bleeder for about $25.00 (could have been US $) from:
- one small cheap pressure herbicide sprayer
- one economy low scale pressure guage
- one brass tee fitting to mount the guage
- one brass fitting mounted into a spare master cylinder cap for his car
- several small hose clamps, and
- several short lengths of hose.
And it worked.

His only advice was to limit the pressure to 10 psi (?) as too much pressure will cause foaming in the brake fluid.

If I ever find this thread again, I'll post a link.

Yup ... I built one of these. If I were to do it again, I'd buy the Motive one, simply because it ended up being about $40, and for a few more $, I'd get a nice box with it ;-0

It works great however ... unless you run out of fluid in the jug, and pump your brakes full of air. Ask me how I know :rolleyes:

[Dave Barker]

Always the cheapskate, I use the crappy tire bleeding kit. Some of you guys know that my car is a friggin heavy 3500 lb Camaro that really needs good brakes.and in actual fact the one man bleeding kit seems to work very well. I have a great pedal and have neven had a problem with air getting it past the threads. After all guys, the threads are distal to the actual seal so unless you are using a vacuum it doesn't really matter as long as you know the threads are the issue as opposed to some other source of air.

Interesting issue is that ( I believe) to bleed the ABS controller correctly you should have the engine running which is awkward in my case. ( Occasionally I just do it with the engine stopped and have had no problem yet, but I have never introduced air to the lines from the master cylinder).

[Rob McAuley]

I picked up one of the pressure bleeders this past season, and was amazed at how simple it was to use.

Dump in a can of fluid - I had amber fliud, so I picked up some blue stuff.

Screw on the master cylinder cap, pump up the tank, open the bleed valve until the fluid changes colour, go on to the next caliper.

The pressure bleeders are US$45 from just about any supply store. I got mine from HMS Motorsports.

Definitely recommended.

[finboy]

Originally posted by Dave Barker
Always the cheapskate, I use the crappy tire bleeding kit.

are you talking about the kit that has a clear vinyl tube, container and a few rubber fittings? for 3.99-9 bucks

or the hand pump for around 75 bucks??

[Cheers!]

Originally posted by Greg F
BTW, the Earl's speed bleeders aren't so foolproof after all. Here's how my installation went a few weeks ago...

Part 1:
The brass plunger on only two of the four bleeders could bottom out on the housing when pressed by hand. It turned out that some of the coils of the springs were at right angles to the axes of the springs, and limited the travel of the plungers' shafts. Not all of the shafts were the same length either, so Earl's may have tried to tweak them.

I fixed them all by sandpapering the ends of the shafts until they were short enough to work properly. Note, if the plunger does not bottom out on the bleeder's body, your brakes may fail!!! You need to address this failure mode.

Part 2:
One of the bleeders leaked fluid past the threads in a big way. Damn!!! While this is not a problem for the bleeding efficacy, it can mean that brake fluid would end up on painted suspension components, rims, tires, etc.

The solution is to add some thread sealant or Teflon tape to the threads before installation.

Part 3:
This is where it gets ugly... I think all my bleeders are FUBAR'ed from over-torquing. Over-torquing causes the soft brass plunger to get extruded into the bleeder's steel (or SST) body. The symptoms of this condition are a stuck/sticking plunger and brake fluid flowing backwards through the hose in-between pumps of the brake pedal while bleeding.

The solution is to get a new set of bleeders and not make the same mistakes as before. :p


Summary:
If I were to redesign the bleeders, I'd add sealant to the threads, make the plunger from steel, control the shaft length & spring installation procedure, and specify a maximum torque setting on the package.

I don't know which earl's speed bleeders you got, but my came with sealant. What looks like a very small film of RTV silicone applied on the threads and cured at the factory. I"ve been using the earl's speed bleeders and they are worth more than gold. The only thing is if you think your fluid is FUBAR and really dirty you should put your old fitting in there and pump the intial part with them so that the dirty fluid doesn't gum up the ball seat on teh speed bleeders.

[Dave Barker]

Originally posted by finboy
are you talking about the kit that has a clear vinyl tube, container and a few rubber fittings? for 3.99-9 bucks

or the hand pump for around 75 bucks??

Since when is $75 cheap?? ( actually I don't want the vacuum type bleeder)