FCYs / cleanup

[BucketBoy]

I'm not looking to stir up anything here or make any judgements, this question is just a curiousity from someone who stands on the sidelines:

To the drivers & car-owners:
When a car becomes disabled just off the course and *not* in a high-impact area, would you prefer to have the car removed from the track under a full-course double-yellow, or take your chances having it left there until the end of the session, knowing that if you were to spin or drive off at that general location the probability of impacting the disabled vehicle is likely very low?

They say lighning doesn't strike the same place twice.. :rolleyes:

Getting a car out of a gravel bed (example Turn 1 or Turn 8 at Mosport) can be fairly time consuming. Especially so when picking up disabled vehicles around the first few corners, this means the tow-vehicle has to travel around the entire track slowly eating up valuable green-flag track time!

So as a driver still circulating, what are your thoughts?
As a team-owner of a car circulating, what are your thoughts?
As a team-owner of the disabled car(!), what are your thoughts?

Does it make a difference on the type of car (open wheel or closed wheel) and the speeds of the cars?

What could be done to possibly improve back-to-racing times when a disabled car is left in a precarious position?

[rmicroys]

As we're talking about amateur racing here, I doubt that many of us can (or like to) afford to have our cars bent up because somebody spun off in the same place that I did. Personally, I'm of the thought that if somebody pooches a session, that session should suffer, certainly not the others.

First, people should have proper tow hooks on their cars to get the cars out of the gravel. I don't think it makes much difference on the type of car - they shouldn't be left in a precarious position.

[de Jager]

I prefer to leave the choice up to the marshalls. They are the best to determine the seriousness of the situation. If they feel the car should be removed, then it should be. Otherwise, we continue.

[rmicroys]

Well... AFIAK, it's really up to the clerk. The marshalls have no true power to make that kind of decision.

[de Jager]

True, but their opinion is a part of that decision.

[rmicroys]

That I will not deny. They are the clerk's eyes and ears for sure.

[jodz]

When are a car is disabled just off course, no matter where it is, it becomes a hazard.

If a car is stuck in the middle of a 30 foot gravel trap, that gravel trap is no longer 30 feet, it's 12 feet with a solid wall at 12.1 feet.

When a car is disabled next to a tire wall, that wall is no longer a tire wall, it's a solid object with some tires behind it.

This type of racing:
a) pays no money whatsoever
b) will get you nowhere even if you win the championship
c) is relatively cheap as far as budgets go

---it's not worth it to risk wadding up my car, or in a more serious case, getting injured (we all still remember Julio don't we).

I'd rather run with a clear safe track, so I say take the time and get it out of the way. In the interest of time though, would it be possible to remove a car to a point behind the wall, and have the tow truck stay there as well (eg - a car in Corner 1 getting removed to behind the wall in Corner 2), or is that not feasible.

One more comment. During the Touring GT race on Sunday when the BMW got stuck in the gravel trap in 5A, it seemed to take 3 laps just to get the tow truck on track. What took so long??

JT

[malcolm]

there could be a couple ways to go about it.

1. spins off toward the end of a race. hold a standing yellow at that corner until the end of the race. Therefore 9 out of ten corners are green, and only the one is yellow. race goes on... car is safe... all is good.

2. if it's at the beginning of a race, and the car spun off, chances are that it could be hit again. if one car ends up somewhere, another one could too. I don't want to see damaged cars, or worse, hurt people, so I think a red flag or FCY would be best (holding a standing yellow at a corner for an entire race may not be a great move... or would it?). As for which one, pick the winner of that boiling debate... it doesn't matter to me. I don't actually mind FCY's all that much, as long as the track is cleared quickly.

[Trackside]

What about using the rules that are written already.

In the cases that Malcolm described they are both already coverd with a Permanent Situation. The flag is waved for a car in a dangerous position for two laps, stepped down to a steady for two laps and removed for the rest of the race, unless something causes a change to the situation, ie another incident.

This leaves the ability to race around the majority of the track and gives the drivers a good chance to see exactly where the incident is and how they need to drive the sector that it is in for when the flags are removed.

This has worked pretty well for 40+ years now why don't we just leave well enough alone?

[rmicroys]

Yup... if the car is deemed by the clerk to be in a hazardous position, then it will be removed under FCY. Otherwise if it's sitting to the side, offline up the hill or in some other unoffending position then it really isn't a big deal...

I guess what one really doesn't want is a repeat of the F1 race in Brazil was it? In which 5 or 6 cars all ended up crashing off in to each other the same corner! They couldn't even crane the cars away fast enough... Not pretty...

[BucketBoy]

Originally posted by jodz
I'd rather run with a clear safe track, so I say take the time and get it out of the way. In the interest of time though, would it be possible to remove a car to a point behind the wall, and have the tow truck stay there as well (eg - a car in Corner 1 getting removed to behind the wall in Corner 2), or is that not feasible.

One more comment. During the Touring GT race on Sunday when the BMW got stuck in the gravel trap in 5A, it seemed to take 3 laps just to get the tow truck on track. What took so long??Good reply, and thanks for the answers so far from everyone else. Looks like everyone is more concerned about their safety(and their car's!) than getting green flag time in. Good.

I wonder how feasible it would be to have the tow vehicles park a disabled vehicle off track -- or maybe even have an infield exit (maybe at the top of 2), or even use the gate at 8 more often so racing can resume more quickly? Due to the layout/walls at Mosport, it might more difficult that it sounds..

-- Jodz, I might be able to answer your question about the car stuck at 5a as I was at 4 and saw what happened. The car spun out coming in to 5a and ended up right at the edge of the track in front of the gravel bed. Instead of rolling back down the hill, I think the driver instead decided to drive forward through the gravel bed so he could rejoin more safely. Only he got stuck!

The driver got out and was going to climb over the tires, but then 3 marshals came out and told him to get in so they could push the car back onto the track (quicker than a tow, it was assumed), but either the car was too deeply buried, or (I heard that) the car was stuck in gear and would not roll backwards. Anyhow, by then a lap or 2 had passed and I guess it was only then that the tow was sent.

You guys did very well in the rain - we were expecting mayhem at 4/5a but everybody stayed on the track - AGT, Honda, and you Touring guys.

[malcolm]

yes... I was in the #92 Corvette in AGT, and I could barely see! The windsheild had fogged up totally (hence my hitting of the kerb on the cool down lap), not to mention the rear wheels locking under downshifts and having to drift through the corner... ahh, slicks in the rain - gotta love it!

[Pat_B]

Originally posted by de Jager
True, but their opinion is a part of that decision.

As a phone op/corner captian I can't tell you how many times I have heard or said the words "we are not comfortable with where the car is" (read: Get it out of here before someone hits it!) only to be told to treat it as a permanent situation!

We have input? Yes.
Is it used as part of the decision? Not necessarily.

Pat

[rmicroys]

Why am I not surprised? Oh well. Get used to it I guess.

[Bruce Mills]

In regard to the car at 5A. I was the phone op and it was my suggestion to push the car out as it was barely 6 inches into the gravel trap and not at all deeply stuck. It seemed like a real good idea at the time.
Then the comedy started.
1 Unfortunatly before we could get orginized and tell the driver to stay in the car he had unbelted and climbed out.
2 Rushing to get rebelted fingers turn to thumbs, routine is forgotten helmets goes on before belts now driver can't see his belts, helmet comes off, marshal tries to help, belts are all messed up, driver sorts out belts, put helmet on , put gloves on, finally ready to go but 1 and 1/2 lapps have passed.
3 Hurry hurry push the car out before pace car gets here. Now 3 marshals push backward as hard as they can but driver has unknowingly selected 1st gear instead of reverse. Car was lightly stuck but now its buried to the axel and 2 1/2 laps have passed.
4 Now we call for a tow. Tow truck driver does a fantastic job, extracts car in record time and ducks behind wall at 5.
5 Race finally restarts and phone op feels like an idiot!