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Gwoody27
06-21-2015, 02:10 PM
Carrying on from the first 2 events.

1. It is awesome that we have people like Carsten, Rob McA and Perry R to step in when needed to do many duties. Also thanks to Mohamed for clerking and Ken Prince for providing Perry with much needed help.

2. Great to see Corey W back and still as quick as ever, same for Erik D R.

3. Not sure about evening events in an unlit area. Half the field was gone by about 7 pm and it was not fun loading up in the dark.

4. Some very fast drivers and cars joined us for this event which is outstanding and I hope they will be back for more.

5. Good to see Chuck back at the track, we all still miss Kelly.

6. Good marshaling is hard to find and a really under appreciated skill. We all need to always thank good marshals for their support.

7. Next up the big track, can hardly wait.

matbriand
06-21-2015, 05:48 PM
What I learnt:

1) Dry setup is no good in slightly wet conditions

2) How a car with toe out in the rear handles under braking. (Need to tap up brakes to transfer weight then once weight is transferred increase pedal pressure)

3) Big bars make tight low speed corners easier to handle.

4) I need more front and rear camber.

Grant Galloway
06-21-2015, 05:54 PM
I learned

Bridgestone RE-71R's are faster than my Hankook RS-3's

I go way faster in competition than I do in practice

I seen a guy change a clutch at the track, that was epic

Corey Whiteman is what I aspire to be

My Civic si is capable of winning the GT3 class (with someone else driving)

Most importantly I had a blast and I will be back again, may even run the full schedule next year!

Grant

3wheeler
06-22-2015, 09:31 AM
Thanks Grant :)

1. 8th gen Civic is plenty capable of be being competitive in OTA.

2. Co-driving a FWD car is not very good when there is so little time between runs.

3. Kyle Beaty and his crew are some of the most determined guys I have ever met at the track. Changing a clutch at the track to get in a competition run is seriously impressive.

4. TD's are just as good as I originally thought. You guys better get a set if you want a shot at the title! ;)

Kart14
06-22-2015, 02:41 PM
"4. TD's are just as good as I originally thought. You guys better get a set if you want a shot at the title!"

From what I've seen TD's aren't R888s, NT01s, AO48s or RA1s. If I was running non-premium Rs this would be the go to tire.

3wheeler
06-22-2015, 03:39 PM
"4. TD's are just as good as I originally thought. You guys better get a set if you want a shot at the title!"

From what I've seen TD's aren't R888s, NT01s, AO48s or RA1s. If I was running non-premium Rs this would be the go to tire.

Yeah it was only a matter of time before someone with a prepped car came into the series with these tires. They certainly are not "new", but because no one in OTA has used them during competition, its almost as if they are. Had I kept my car, guess what I would have been using.. ;)

10gt61
06-22-2015, 10:47 PM
Although I wasn't able to make it out to TMP, I learned (yet again) that I have a great team I can rely upon to get it all done. Awesome work.
And I learned that we do indeed have a very competitive group this year.
Also awesome!

2TH PWR
06-23-2015, 06:15 PM
I have tested a bunch and I would say the TDs are classed accordingly.

They are clearly faster than the tires listed by kart, but everyone in the world knows that. The other tires are under performers in todays tire world.

They are also clearly slower than full slicks. Everyone knows that.

Why did I choose Tds? I originally planned on going with street tires this year, but I didn't want to go slower to be competitive. It's against my nature.

Would I be able to run under 77.5 on some RE71Rs?
I think I could.

3wheeler
06-24-2015, 03:47 AM
In no way are the TDs classed correctly as they are with the likes of R888s, NT01s, etc. When switching to R-comps, you only need about a second gain in time to justify the class change. The tires I listed are not even that close to streets which is why you haven't seen a overall winner on R-comps in quite some time(besides Muhammed). It's no secret that the TDs are MUCH quicker than streets(2-2.5 seconds better on a 90 second course), and this isn't hear say, it's been proven many times locally and in the US. I had researched it to death and had I kept my car, that was my plan. There is a few of us that have been talking about this since last season and it was only a matter of time before it was proved. Unfortunately it's a unique tire that works better than expected and for that reason it's hard to fit into OTAs classing.

Don't think I am taking away from your win btw, I actually applaud you for stepping up and running OTA when most just dismiss the series due to the complicated rule set. Good luck the rest of the season!

kmorris
06-24-2015, 09:11 AM
1. Subtracting 3 teeth from your pinion gear and 3 from your ring gear does not give you the improvement in axle ratio that you might have expected.

2TH PWR
06-24-2015, 09:18 AM
In no way are the TDs classed correctly as they are with the likes of R888s, NT01s, etc. When switching to R-comps, you only need about a second gain in time to justify the class change. The tires I listed are not even that close to streets which is why you haven't seen a overall winner on R-comps in quite some time(besides Muhammed). It's no secret that the TDs are MUCH quicker than streets(2-2.5 seconds better on a 90 second course), and this isn't hear say, it's been proven many times locally and in the US. I had researched it to death and had I kept my car, that was my plan. There is a few of us that have been talking about this since last season and it was only a matter of time before it was proved. Unfortunately it's a unique tire that works better than expected and for that reason it's hard to fit into OTAs classing.

Don't think I am taking away from your win btw, I actually applaud you for stepping up and running OTA when most just dismiss the series due to the complicated rule set. Good luck the rest of the season!

I think most will agree after seeing my video I could run a low 1:16 on TDs.
The next class down at SGT2 is 1.2% slower.
The challenge then becomes could I run a low 1:17 on RE71Rs.
That's an interesting challenge and I may have to take it up.

Saj5DJ
06-24-2015, 10:48 AM
In no way are the TDs classed correctly as they are with the likes of R888s, NT01s, etc. When switching to R-comps, you only need about a second gain in time to justify the class change. The tires I listed are not even that close to streets which is why you haven't seen a overall winner on R-comps in quite some time(besides Muhammed). It's no secret that the TDs are MUCH quicker than streets(2-2.5 seconds better on a 90 second course), and this isn't hear say, it's been proven many times locally and in the US. I had researched it to death and had I kept my car, that was my plan. There is a few of us that have been talking about this since last season and it was only a matter of time before it was proved. Unfortunately it's a unique tire that works better than expected and for that reason it's hard to fit into OTAs classing.

Don't think I am taking away from your win btw, I actually applaud you for stepping up and running OTA when most just dismiss the series due to the complicated rule set. Good luck the rest of the season!

Can be tough to make rulesets keep up with tire tech.

RE71's and Rival S's are now demonstratably faster than the RS3's. TD's are faster than NT01's. R7's are faster than R6's.

R888's haven't been worth talking about for a long time. A048's for even longer.

Question is, are all the categories losing time consistently? Does the TD push treaded R-comp game further than the RE71R pushes the street tire game?

Treaded R-comp's (at least in OTA) have lonnnnng been overdue a renaissance. Now what will the folks that complained RS3's are too fast compared to R888's say?

Some folks worth listening to (and there's really not many of them) who time trial Miata's stateside are saying Rival-S's are faster than NT01's.

Perhaps it's R888's and NT01's that don't fit the description anymore. Can't define a category by the lowest common denominator when the whole nature of the classification is based on the fact that the competitor will (should) pick the best of breed for each component. I can't argue that less pips should be charged for coilovers because I threw some E-bay sleeves and springs on a set of Monroes and went no faster....

scorcherjf
06-24-2015, 11:25 AM
For what it's worth... my lateral G's according to my AIM are no better on my NT01's versus my street tires (Pirelli Pzero & Michelin PS2) at DDT and TMP. What I do get from the NT01's are consistency though, whereas my street tires will get greasy after a few laps, the NT01 stay quite consistent throughout a 20 minute session. This doesn't do me any favors for competition, though. That said, I don't think I'll be running NT01's next season - probably a newer generation extreme-performance street tire like the RE-71R or even the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 (180 treadwear rating on those, can you believe that?).

ScotcH
06-24-2015, 11:40 AM
What the heck are TDs? :confused: Lol, been stuck on Conti's way too long!

KLZEMX6
06-24-2015, 12:51 PM
If you're going to make a change in the rules for td's you better make it for hoosier a7's as well because I'd bet money that a sticker a7 is way more then a second faster then a sticker td at tmp. I bet on some cars it could be two seconds or more. The reality is there's always going to be one or two tires that outshine the rest. When the advan a050 comes to north america(supposedly next year I've heard) there will be then competition for the td. Just like the rival-s is competition for the re-71r. There will always be tires that are faster then the rest, it's up to the competitor to decide how much they want to spend to try and win!

13inches
06-24-2015, 01:05 PM
What the heck are TDs? :confused: Lol, been stuck on Conti's way too long!

http://www.hankooktire.com/global/competition-cars-tires/hankook-ventus-td-z221.html

2TH PWR
06-24-2015, 01:09 PM
I think the majority of people are echoing my point.

Due to the march of progress each class has a go to tire.

Those go to tires are matched well against each other.

KLZEMX6
06-24-2015, 01:10 PM
i think the majority of people are echoing my point.

Due to the march of progress each class has a go to tire.

Those go to tires are matched well against each other.

bingo!

Grant Galloway
06-24-2015, 01:26 PM
Funny there are guys in the RC racing world that have been arguing about tires for years, I see the same things here; just on a larger scale.

Truth is the only way to even the playing field is to have everyone on the same set of tires. (Spec) I don't think that is going to happen...

Corey and I were at TMP on June 10th for some testing he drove my car for about 7-8 laps with me in it on old RS3's and he went 1:24.8 With brand new RE71R's and no passenger (I weigh 185lbs) he went 1:22.8

I'm not convinced that I will continue to buy the Bridgestones, we destroyed the front left tire (it had 50 laps put on it)

They might be a little quicker when new, but I bet the Hankook RS3's would be better after 3-4 track days of use.

It probably comes down to who has the deepest pockets, mine are pretty deep; but I still don't think I want to buy new rubber every few track days.

I started this to have fun, when it gets to the tire of the month or who has the most $$$ it isn't fun anymore.

Grant

Saj5DJ
06-24-2015, 01:49 PM
Yep, tires keep moving on, totally agree.

Streets, treaded R's and DOT slicks don't necessarily follow the same peaks and troughs in their development cycles. Unless you want to be changing the rules every time a new hot tire comes out...

Or, as I suspect has been the case in the past, every time someone that can really wheel shows up with said hot tire. Doubt the arguments on RS3's would ever have happened if Chris had have got a set of NT01's or TD's under him.

Saj5DJ
06-24-2015, 01:56 PM
Corey and I were at TMP on June 10th for some testing he drove my car for about 7-8 laps with me in it on old RS3's and he went 1:24.8 With brand new RE71R's and no passenger (I weigh 185lbs) he went 1:22.8

I'm not convinced that I will continue to buy the Bridgestones, we destroyed the front left tire (it had 50 laps put on it)


Grant

Ouch! Not overly surprising on relatively heavy FWD, but still. Ouch.

Is the car stock?

wparsons
06-24-2015, 02:10 PM
Grant, I imagine some camber up front will go a long way in improving tire life.

Grant Galloway
06-24-2015, 04:17 PM
I actually had my RS-3's for sale, and instead bought some new wheels today to keep them. I will keep the RE71r's for time attack events.

I am running -2 camber front and rear.

KLZEMX6
06-24-2015, 07:44 PM
I actually had my RS-3's for sale, and instead bought some new wheels today to keep them. I will keep the RE71r's for time attack events.

I am running -2 camber front and rear.

Definitely needs more camber I would think

Dave Barker
06-24-2015, 08:22 PM
Unfortunately the tire wars will continue, likely for the foreseeable future.

Nitto NT01s and Toyo RA-1s are old tech but as mentioned above have great reliability.

Personally I found that RS3s on my Corvette were good for about 1 hot lap and performance started to drop quickly after that. The harder I drove, the slower I got (and the more the car slid around). Rivals were good for maybe 2 laps.

Part of the issue is that autocross guys only need a tire good for 60 seconds so what works for them might not be the best for us.

The other part of the issue is that many tires are not available in enough sizes for all competitors. Trying to get new Rivals, Rival S, Bridgestone RE 71.R in appropriate sizes for my car is virtually impossible. Even Yokohama who sponsors our series can't get AD08Rs in my size in Canada (although they are available from Tire Rack for a crazy high price). A set of Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2s (another tire that can upset the "street" tire rules) for my car would be over 3K !

In the past before tire PIPs, if you didn't run Hoosiers or V710s, you weren't likely going to win. Unfortunately we may be back to similar times but at least you can often drive your tire to the track :cool:

wparsons
06-24-2015, 09:08 PM
I actually had my RS-3's for sale, and instead bought some new wheels today to keep them. I will keep the RE71r's for time attack events.

I am running -2 camber front and rear.

It's macpherson strut front, correct? What's the rear? I think for track use, optimal camber will be closer to -3.5 for you.

nowcritical
06-25-2015, 08:59 PM
For what it's worth... my lateral G's according to my AIM are no better on my NT01's versus my street tires (Pirelli Pzero & Michelin PS2) at DDT and TMP. What I do get from the NT01's are consistency though, whereas my street tires will get greasy after a few laps, the NT01 stay quite consistent throughout a 20 minute session. This doesn't do me any favors for competition, though. That said, I don't think I'll be running NT01's next season - probably a newer generation extreme-performance street tire like the RE-71R or even the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 (180 treadwear rating on those, can you believe that?).

Love my stock Sport Cup 2's not sure how long they will last however. Just make sure you pray to the sun god as rain is not something you want to experience with these. They seem to be very consistent and tend not to over heat and get greasy.

Grant Galloway
06-25-2015, 09:53 PM
The problem with my car isn't static camber, its the fact the car doesn't gain camber on compression of the suspension.

Not sure how we can correct this? Aside from increasing the ride height..

The rear of the car has an upper camber link, and doesn't suffer the same problem.

I ordered a new tire today....:D

New brake pads, heavier rear sway bar, and a small diet is coming for the car. Hoping to do really well at Grand Bend.

Grant

KLZEMX6
06-25-2015, 09:57 PM
The problem with my car isn't static camber, its the fact the car doesn't gain camber on compression of the suspension.

Not sure how we can correct this? Aside from increasing the ride height..

The rear of the car has an upper camber link, and doesn't suffer the same problem.

I ordered a new tire today....:D

New brake pads, heavier rear sway bar, and a small diet is coming for the car. Hoping to do really well at Grand Bend.

Grant

My car gains a lot of camber on compression aand I start out with 3.5". I ran as high as 4.2 when it was still on street tires with softer suspension

Chuck Atkins
06-25-2015, 11:11 PM
The problem with my car isn't static camber, its the fact the car doesn't gain camber on compression of the suspension.

Not sure how we can correct this? Aside from increasing the ride height..

The rear of the car has an upper camber link, and doesn't suffer the same problem.

I ordered a new tire today....:D

New brake pads, heavier rear sway bar, and a small diet is coming for the car. Hoping to do really well at Grand Bend.

Grant

Take it to Scott at Can-Alignment Grant, he should be able to fix your issues.

3wheeler
06-26-2015, 06:18 AM
Camber gain on mcpherson strut cars depends almost entirely on the angle of the lower control atm. There is no upper control arm with this design which means the pivot point at the top of the strut is fixed. In Grants situation, the ride height on the front is a little too low, which means the lower control arm pulls the hub inwards under compression while the top of the strut stays in a fixed location- this causes a loss of camber. This is why you do not want to go so low in strut cars where the lower control arm is no longer parallel with the ground(at the very least). You need a lot of static camber with cars that utilize front struts for this reason. Or, you use ball joint extenders to correct the geometry when lowering a car. Unfortunately I see a lot of slammed cars at the track with no consideration for the above.

thgear
06-26-2015, 09:53 AM
Camber gain on mcpherson strut cars depends almost entirely on the angle of the lower control atm. There is no upper control arm with this design which means the pivot point at the top of the strut is fixed. In Grants situation, the ride height on the front is a little too low, which means the lower control arm pulls the hub inwards under compression while the top of the strut stays in a fixed location- this causes a loss of camber. This is why you do not want to go so low in strut cars where the lower control arm is no longer parallel with the ground(at the very least). You need a lot of static camber with cars that utilize front struts for this reason. Or, you use ball joint extenders to correct the geometry when lowering a car. Unfortunately I see a lot of slammed cars at the track with no consideration for the above.


A really good solution is custom uprights, but that's $$$.

the MK4 VW chassis is the only one I'm aware of that had a 3rd party manufacturer (Canada's own H2Sport) develop an upright with a lower ballpoint attachment point.

Everyone else (big budget racing) has someone custom CAD it.

Another somewhat effective solution is balljoint extenders.

wparsons
06-26-2015, 11:54 AM
Camber gain on mcpherson strut cars depends almost entirely on the angle of the lower control atm. There is no upper control arm with this design which means the pivot point at the top of the strut is fixed. In Grants situation, the ride height on the front is a little too low, which means the lower control arm pulls the hub inwards under compression while the top of the strut stays in a fixed location- this causes a loss of camber. This is why you do not want to go so low in strut cars where the lower control arm is no longer parallel with the ground(at the very least). You need a lot of static camber with cars that utilize front struts for this reason. Or, you use ball joint extenders to correct the geometry when lowering a car. Unfortunately I see a lot of slammed cars at the track with no consideration for the above.

And to make matters worse, his car (like mine) is multilink or double wishbone rear, so the camber curve out back really accentuates how bad it is up front :(

Ideal static camber on a car like that will definitely be very different front/rear

Slowpoke
06-26-2015, 04:27 PM
RE71's and Rival S's are now demonstratably faster than the RS3's. TD's are faster than NT01's. R7's are faster than R6's.

R888's haven't been worth talking about for a long time. A048's for even longer.

Question is, are all the categories losing time consistently? Does the TD push treaded R-comp game further than the RE71R pushes the street tire game?

Treaded R-comp's (at least in OTA) have lonnnnng been overdue a renaissance. Now what will the folks that complained RS3's are too fast compared to R888's say?

Yes, there's an evolution in chemistry, but I'm stunned to see otherwise educated competitors comparing TD SOFT's to R888 MEDIUM compound and A048 MEDIUM HARD compound, which is all Toyo and Yokohama have wanted to bring to North America in recent years. Other compounds exist, but it is a marketing / business strategy that Hankook is utilizing that Toyo and Yokohama haven't. Yet.

Bring Yokohama A050 Softs to North America, Toyo R888R GGG or SG compounds and we'll see what happens.

We need more back-to-back data on the Pirelli P-Zero Trofeo R's vs. TD as well.

One thing is clear, it's a great time to be a racer. :)

Saj5DJ
06-26-2015, 05:01 PM
If that's the only compounds they wish to provide us with, then those are what we compare.

They're also in the same tire classification for OTA so... rather begs the comparison.

I would take the point that no one should EXPECT the R888 we can get to be as fast as the TD we can get. And I don't think anyone does.

Dave Barker
06-26-2015, 06:36 PM
Frankly I find it a bit sad that we can't use a spec tire. (Yes I know it is not feasible given that no manufacturer makes a wide enough variety of sizes but just sayin".....). The NASA American Iron , Spec Miata and Spec E30 series used Toyo RA-1s with great success for a number of year. Took tire performance almost totally out of the question.

It would be better if all the tires that were at least of similar performance were more easily available.

Certainly on one Corvette forum, one of the successful national autocross champs has also lamented that the newest tires don't seem to outlast Hoosiers, sometimes cost more, are less available, come in fewer sizes and most importantly aren't as fast as Hoosiers.

One of the whole reasons we came up with tire PIP rules was to save some cost yet now we are all chasing the new "it" tire. Wish I had a good answer to the problem.

Saj5DJ
06-26-2015, 06:56 PM
That particular guy (I know exactly who it is) has a huge, huge axe to grind about stock class autocross moving to streets. He frequently, at best, engages in serious hyperbole and , at worst, outiright lies to further his agenda.

I honestly saw him and a couple of others like him in Lincoln 2013 with T-shirts that read "You can pry my Hoosiers from my cold, dead hands". Not likely to get an objective view there :)

Spews on every forum he can get his keyboard on too. I would caution against taking anything he says seriously and recommend other avenues of research if you want some genuine insight.

Saj5DJ
06-26-2015, 07:24 PM
Frankly I find it a bit sad that we can't use a spec tire. (Yes I know it is not feasible given that no manufacturer makes a wide enough variety of sizes but just sayin".....).

Wellllll.... Hoosier does. :p


Geez. Can you tell I'm missing OTA this year guys? I'll slope off back to the autoslalom forum now :)

Dave Barker
06-27-2015, 09:15 AM
That particular guy (I know exactly who it is) has a huge, huge axe to grind about stock class autocross moving to streets. He frequently, at best, engages in serious hyperbole and , at worst, outiright lies to further his agenda.

I honestly saw him and a couple of others like him in Lincoln 2013 with T-shirts that read "You can pry my Hoosiers from my cold, dead hands". Not likely to get an objective view there :)

Spews on every forum he can get his keyboard on too. I would caution against taking anything he says seriously and recommend other avenues of research if you want some genuine insight.

Barry, if we are talking about the same guy, a certain Corvette driver from New England whose first name is Sam, he at least this year is a bit happier with Bridgestones (no longer available from Tire Rack in the sizes he and others are using).

OTOH, his points are quite valid. Obviously Hoosiers couldn't be a spec tire for Time-Attack and at least the ability to drive to the track on the tires you compete on, is a big advantage but the street tire situation now may not save any money over the old situation of having to buy multiple sets of short lived "race" tires.

Saj5DJ
06-27-2015, 11:56 AM
The new breed of streets (RE71R & Rival-S) aren't lasting as long as the current guard, but they're not at Hoosier levels yet, as Sam would like to imply.

From the autox world anyway, folks that previously saw 180ish competitive runs on RS3's are reporting seeing 140ish competitive runs on the new stones.

The main thing is that folks south of the border are showing up to National Tours and winning on 100+ run RE71R's/Rival-S's. Sam shows up to (and frequently wins) each major event with sticker Hoosiers. I'd say actions speak louder than words there.

Anyway, happy to let you guys know how I get on with my Rival S's this year. First two events say they're damn fast....

The availability thing, well that the usual first delivery cycle for a hot new tire thing. It would be more accurate to say "currently out of stock" than "no longer available". As always, the folks that do their research and take the risk of jumping fast on the hot new thing get an advantage... It certainly worked out that way for me at Picton.

Dave Barker
06-27-2015, 03:16 PM
Unfortunately, what works in Autocross may not be good for 30 min races and we in Time-Attack are caught in the middle. According to a number of folks the newer faster tires tend to fall off in performance fairly quickly when hot. For me that can be 1 lap at SMP long track. This would be ok I suppose if we ran all our events like the shoot out.