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Kart14
06-22-2015, 02:31 PM
OK, I'll ask the awkward question. What's up with the car count in GT Challenge?

I like the one day format and power to weight formula but apparently I'm in the minority.

Should I cut my losses now? I've already invested two weekends this year, should I start from scratch and switch to GT Sprints? I assume that with 2 cars pre-registered GT Challenge is in danger of being dropped this weekend at BARC.

luker0
06-22-2015, 04:07 PM
From my point of view, I just can't afford to do more than the two regional weekends I've planned at CMP.

I would do more regional weekends if the cost hadn't gone up again this year. And I would register for GT Challenge first and potentially sprints as well since we have two drivers sharing a car.

metric1
06-22-2015, 07:11 PM
Car counts appear to be down across the board this year, however, it seems that many competitors are responding to the increased entry fees. The cost/benefit return is no longer there, when compared to the options available elsewhere.
My participation now depends on what the registered field looks like. And so far, unfortunately for the clubs, it's been dismal.
I too am in favor of power to weight and the one day format. It was the draw for me, and many others. As of last week, the GT challenge steering committee was disbanded, in no small part due to the brick wall that was CASC. So I think the writing is on the wall.

terrydale
06-22-2015, 09:34 PM
I think that most folks know me as being very proactive and supportive of doing whatever it takes to get people out racing - looking for solutions.

So, having said that, reading the comments in this thread, and as the Organiser for the May Madness Regional Race at Calabogie Motorsports Park in May - I am sincerely reaching out trying to understand what happened to the GT Challenge Entry at that event.

We offered up huge discounts that translated to 180 minutes of track time for the GT Challenge Race Group for a total entry Fee of $575. In fact, we additionally offered a rebate package based on car count that, with an entry of 21 cars, would have resulted in a total entry fee to the race of $525! For 180 minutes of track time! And with all of that, we ended up with a grand total of 6 GT Challenge cars.

We have MCO's Ted Powell Regional Race at CMP coming up on August 21-23. We try very hard to give our customers the best possible experience and good value. Please help me understand!

shaker351
06-22-2015, 11:08 PM
I believe having a different rule set for GT challenge vs. GT sprints has hurt racing. By having 2 rule sets you have now splintered the field and those that used to run both no longer do.I personally am not a fan of power to weight unless it's more power less weight then it's awesome.I do think however if you do have a power to weight rule there are others things that are or more important that need to go along with it. Tires shocks aero etc. otherwise it does nothing. just my 2 cents worth. Looking forward to racing this weekend. See you at the track

shamrock
06-22-2015, 11:22 PM
actually you have a good point there. I don't think that's all of it but It may be part of the problem. I ran in it before the power to weight but when it came in I couldn't. My car was woefully outclassed and I didn't have the budget to make it work. Interesting point.

Kart14
06-23-2015, 09:48 AM
I do think however if you do have a power to weight rule there are others things that are or more important that need to go along with it. Tires shocks aero etc. otherwise it does nothing.

Would adding a handling index factor solve this problem? Time attack uses 70% weight to horsepower, 30% handling. This leaves some room to solve balance of performance problems.

Other thoughts:

Could the weekend be split into 1 day - open wheel, 1 day -closed wheel in order to condense the time commitment for the classes. I guess the attraction of this depends on the amount of infrastructure you need to set up. I may also limit "cross pollination" of various groups.

Could GT Challenge be split into 2 thirty minute races or is this defeating the purpose of the longer format?

I'm sure all this has come up before but status quo for GT Challenge isn't working based on car count.

I've registered for GT Challenge but if it gets canned I'll switch to GT2 Sprints this weekend.

23Racer
06-23-2015, 11:04 AM
Most other racing series that use power to weight as a determining factor also include other factors such as suspension, aero, tires, etc... to try to even everything out. Take a look at the NASA rules and you can see how they do it. Also, the GT Challenge rules were initially set for a 1 hour race with 1 pitstop to allow 2 drivers to share costs for the event. Also, the slightly longer distance allowed for tire and car strategies to be used to allow for more interest in the event.

Eric

GT106
06-23-2015, 11:38 AM
I believe there is more than one reason why car counts are down in many divisions. I can only speak for myself , but i will add what I have been told by other racers.
1. price--bang for the buck compared to racing in the US or chump-car.
2. Too many races at CTMP, gets boring.
3. A pain and way too time consuming to get cars/trucks inspected. ( Especially when you have driven that vehicle for years.) Same questions year in and year out. Vehicles meet FIA, SCCA, CCTC but you have to jump through hoops to get it CASC passed.
4. When you race in the US and chump-car you are well and truly welcomed, they really want to ensure you are happy. Even though its all amateur racing you get treated like a pro.Everything from Tech inspection to the podium.I wont knock our registration, its as good or better than any track I've raced and that's a few. Unfortunately CASC-OR just don't care or are unwilling to listen to its customers.
This year I am going to do some other tracks--Quebec, Watkins Glen, 3R, and Icar. Will also do Shannonville, The Tom Powell race at CMP and maybe the 3 hour Enduro and I have not decided but maybe one other. That's my take on whats happening.
Being one of the members of the now disbanded GT Challenge steering committee, I like the power to weight ratio and one hour, one day format.

egroenke
06-23-2015, 11:57 AM
I'm still on the sidelines but I have to say the 1hr(or 3hr)/1day format is key for me. I even liked the 90min race too. Re-fueling and adding that strategy factor adds to the "Pro" feeling. However even though I did like the switch from break-out time classing, strictlly basing things on HP/weight was flawed. Driveline and handling needs to be factored in like Time Attack otherwise it's very easy to make the rules operate in your favour and with some cars being used in multiple series means either having to change your car config to compete/keep up or stick to being at the tail end of a class.

fastnx
06-23-2015, 12:31 PM
Driveline and handling needs to be factored in like Time Attack otherwise it's very easy to make the rules operate in your favour and with some cars being used in multiple series means either having to change your car config to compete/keep up or stick to being at the tail end of a class.

Agreed. I think it would make sense to duplicate the rules of an existing series be it time attack or NASA. We would have a set of rules that is proven to work, we aren't re-inventing the wheel. Also would encourage competitors from other disciplines/geographic regions to compete with us without the roadblock of prepping the car to another set of rules.

Interesting that cost seems to be a factor. The cheaper price of gas this year (for race cars and tow vehicles) more than outweighs the increase in entry fee. Also Radicals have seen a huge surge in entries while GT cars are down. Interesting because radicals are more expensive to buy than just about any GT sprints car.

ScotcH
06-23-2015, 02:57 PM
We're focused on CTCC this year, but in the past, really liked the GT Challenge formula .. it had a potential. As other has said, I think it just comes down to diluting the competitor field. There are only so many cars to go around, and if you introduce a new series, and then G90 comes in the picture, you have competitors split all over the map, with all groups suffering.

Noone wants to race against themselves (well, many do, but they do solo sprint for much cheaper), so a low car count is going to be a major turn off. Also, a huge split in times between the competitors does not help. GT Challenge tried to fix that with only 2 classes ... unfortunately, it did not work out as many folks don't have the time or resources or initiative to modify their cars to fit the classes.

GT Sprints lets everyone run, but at the expense of having 5 classes with not enough car to fill them. Personally I don't like the brackets, but it does give the best run what you brung format. However, there simply is no incentive to work on your car/driver to get any better.

I bet if there was no GT Sprints, people would pull up their pants and try to fit into a GT Challenge class, and the competition would be awesome! Ain't going to happen ...

But, maybe take the best of both worlds? Take what works from each series, and build ONE that everyone wants to run in ... something like having Practice, Quali and a 1hr race on both Saturday and Sunday. This gives competitors the option to just come for one day, or stay for both. Next, combine some classes ... GT 1, GT 2, GT 3 ... that's it. You're too slow? Then make your car faster ... or put on shitty tires, and run in a slower class. Yes, people would bitch, but if they have no other place to run, they'd make it happen, or sell the car and someone else would.

This of course means that CASC would have to be willing to try something different and potentially piss off a lot of folks for a bit until they realize it's for the good of the sport ... again, not sure that will ever happen.

ScottZ
06-23-2015, 03:16 PM
But, maybe take the best of both worlds? Take what works from each series, and build ONE that everyone wants to run in ... something like having Practice, Quali and a 1hr race on both Saturday and Sunday. This gives competitors the option to just come for one day, or stay for both. Next, combine some classes ... GT 1, GT 2, GT 3 ... that's it. You're too slow? Then make your car faster ... or put on shitty tires, and run in a slower class. Yes, people would bitch, but if they have no other place to run, they'd make it happen, or sell the car and someone else would

Great idea Arek - ran in a field of 42 GT cars on the weekend and it was a blast.

luker0
06-23-2015, 03:44 PM
Also, for the record, I have ZERO interest in running 20 minute races. Thirty minutes is my minimum. If GT Challenge is dropped for weekends then I will no longer be attending CASC events. I will race elsewhere.

jhansen
06-23-2015, 05:49 PM
Arek makes an excellent point. I run in two and sometimes three series, Casc, Nasa and infrequently Bmw club racing.
I believe Nasa has a good format that could be a good comprise for the both the GT Sprints and Challenge people. They run two identical days, a practice of 20 min., qualifying of 15 min., and a 35 min. race each day. This allows people who can only afford the time and/or money for one day still to participate.
I much prefer the 35 minute races to the 20 minutes in GT sprints but we still run in GT sprints because we want to support Casc.
I think we should make an effort to stop all this bickering and use our creativity to come up with options that can work for everyone.
John Hansen #30

AlfaKen
06-23-2015, 05:55 PM
Don't forget all the cars that aren't GT that you need to share the weekend with.

shamrock
06-23-2015, 06:02 PM
I think Arek and Scott are going in the right direction. I've thought this way for the past few years. I haven't said anything except when asked by my club members and friends who revere me for reasons. CASC has to re invent itself completely from the bottom up. The system that served us so well for many years is broken. It's sad , but it does happen. If that means a changing of the guard so to speak if the resistance is high, then it has to be done. But, and its a big but, that takes complete involvement by new people and the old if they wish to have a part in it. That friends is the key. Most everyone here knows I've had deep commitment in my club since 2006. It's a lot of hard work.

ScotcH
06-23-2015, 07:48 PM
Don't forget all the cars that aren't GT that you need to share the weekend with.

If you only have one "GT" type series, there will be plenty of time in the weekend.

SlotMotorsports
06-24-2015, 12:23 PM
Series cost vs Chump has limited my involvement .
I really enjoyed the Challenge format but not the current power/weight ,so sprints it is .

Just an opinion but I have to wonder if the current series structure with multiple clubs will remain viable vs one non profit organization running the series to attempt to manage costs .

GT106 , I have noticed number 4 to some degree .
Our volunteers are the best but yes the racer is the customer and in other series there is a difference .

23Racer
06-25-2015, 05:30 PM
I have been trying to contact Ted Michalos and when I send an email to the Racedirectoratcasc.com, it bounces back. Can anyone assist me?

I have 3 cars that would work in the GT Challenge, I like the format a lot as I have a heavy work schedule and the 1 day event fits for me. We have finally solidified our sponsorship package for this year based on the GT Challenge format and we have unfinished business from last year. We are planning to enter 1 car at Shannonville, 3 cars for the 3 Hour and hopefully 3 for Celebration. It may be an assist to have both Cougars and the RX7 out to help fill the grids.

Eric

Director
06-25-2015, 05:47 PM
I have been trying to contact Ted Michalos and when I send an email to the Racedirectoratcasc.com, it bounces back. Can anyone assist me?

I have 3 cars that would work in the GT Challenge, I like the format a lot as I have a heavy work schedule and the 1 day event fits for me. We have finally solidified our sponsorship package for this year based on the GT Challenge format and we have unfinished business from last year. We are planning to enter 1 car at Shannonville, 3 cars for the 3 Hour and hopefully 3 for Celebration. It may be an assist to have both Cougars and the RX7 out to help fill the grids.

Eric


Eric, Your using the wrong email address:

Use: racedirector(at)casc(dot)on(dot)ca

23Racer
06-25-2015, 05:52 PM
Thanks Perry. I will contact him.

Eric

23Racer
06-25-2015, 05:56 PM
Nope, bounced back again.

Perry, I will send you the note and maybe you can pass it along.

Eric

Kart14
06-25-2015, 06:16 PM
So GT Challenge has been cancelled this weekend. I guess I'm running Sprints.

It would appear from my informal pole that there is support for the one day, one hour format but many aren't keen on the current power to weight formula.

Any possibility of changing GT Challenge back to brackets and seeing what happens to entry numbers at the next event? Or alternatively running two 30 minute races on 1 day.

metric1
06-25-2015, 08:44 PM
Matt, The one hour, one day format is the only way many will show up. At this point I would agree with Arek and say that having three classes gt1 gt2 and gt3, the same groups they had back in the Ontario challenge cup days. The caveat being that cars be subject to classification. Part of the problem in Ontario is that many racers can't see past time brackets. No where else in racing do competitors get to self declare a class without question, not Nasa, not Scca, only Casc. Other organisations don't care if the driver is a first timer or seasoned pro, it's what the car can do and where it rightfully belongs. GT challenge attempted to address that in part, in addition to its schedule format.
The fact that 600+hp Dodge Viper can enter and run in sprints in GT2 for a whole season just kind of highlights the obvious.

wings2k
06-25-2015, 09:18 PM
Reading this as an outsider (I run in Formula).

It seems like the GT guys will only run if they can win that $2 plastic trophy or they feel like it's not worth showing up if their "car" won't be competitive.

Maybe I'm weird, but do you not do this for the challenge and/or the fun? I've got enough plastic trophies, maybe we should give them out to everyone to get more entrants?

Am I off base, because that's how a lot of the complaints read to me.

luker0
06-26-2015, 12:02 AM
So GT challenge is cancelled for the BARC weekend due to low car counts. I seem to remember several years of single digit Libre fields and being told the class had to run in a regional event. Maybe I am not remembering that correctly. We're the Sprint races cancelled at May Madness due to low car entries?

shamrock
06-26-2015, 10:41 AM
The answer to your question Luke is that sprints and libre were two of the founding race classes in CASC so they are on every event schedule regardless. It has always been like that. Whether or not it's still right or wrong now is not for me to say. I'll default back to my original post.

James Appell
06-26-2015, 11:49 AM
in responce to "wings2K", GT sprints & libre are , in hockey parlance, house league. A place for everyone and you might win a prize too.

GT Challange should have been the next step up. A series with defined rules. It got a start at it but didn't progress for reasons I'm unaware of.

abrracing
06-26-2015, 04:41 PM
I think GT Challenge being cancelled this weekend should be the least of everyone who posted concerns. Looking at recent entries in ALL road racing in Ontario isn't good. Both Chump Car events had about 46 entries, CTCC at Shannonville had about 17 entries, CASC this weekend has 90 or so pre-entries and even my little series has 30 prepaid entries for July 11th.

Racing at Mosport so I understand is about $50,000+ for the weekend, dividing the entries that would be $555.00 per car if all 90 show up and pay. Chump car I believe was 3 days with a test day so at $1200.00 per car they are losing money.

I'm at a loss of what Road Racers really want. My series is less than $190.00, you get 3-20 minute races and another 11 hours of track time, but thats not REAL racing some have said. Fair enough. Real racing isn't bracket racing so the CASC Sprints aren't any good and they are not long enough races. Fair Enough. GT Challenge has specific rules with classes,
that isn't any good.......Chump Car has prep rules, long races etc.....that isn't any good. CTCC is as close to Pro racing as we get...............

Is the real problem their just isn't an appetite for Road Racing any more?

If things keep going the way they are this post will become a moot point because no one will be able or willing to spend the money to put a series out for people to run in. Everyone should take a look in the mirror, decide if Road Racing is really what they want and get out and support something before there is nothing to support any more...............

ROTARY ROCKET
06-29-2015, 07:37 PM
As one of the race teams that committed multiple cars and a sponsor to the series, I have to say my peace, and this post will likely get pulled because the powers to be does not want my opinion to influence members here. Forget the power to weight, and the bracket classes, that is not the real cause, these are just some small issues that we can all overcome, once and if the series is viable and people want to be part of. For me the competition in my class was getting stronger and with great cars and competitor, so I am sad to see the series fail.

Anyone that runs a business or manages one with success will tell you, that this organization has failed to recognize how important a customer is! The way the region treats their customers/racer and sponsors is why we are here today! I have raced the past year in SCCA Trans am, SCCA regionals and currently in the USA with IMSA. All of these series are firm and have rules and most times very strict, but they all have one thing in common, they know how to treat their customers! I know I know! CASC is just managed by volunteers etc., but the fundamentals of business apply, you have to listen to your customers, and give them some respect instead of swatting them and belittling them! Don’t challenge your customers and tell them they need to have an inspection hole drilled in their FIA certified cage or they can’t race! Or that they have to have two return springs on their throttle body, when the car was designed with fly by wire controls!

Someone mentioned here that the multi club system is redundant and streamlining and combining resources will make for a more sensible, efficient organization. Would this cut operation cost? Perhaps help lower the cost of entries?
As a member of SCCA, I can tell you that they are going through the same problems that we are having, and car counts are down, but! The difference is, they are listening to their customers! And are proactive in creating new programs to attract new blood and old guys to come back to their club. Mid week track night/ lapping days, bracket enduros with less class restrictions, these are just some of the new programs that SCCA has introduced to turn that ship around. Sorry, I don’t think the fancy expensive videos are going to bring new blood to racing. Perhaps that money would have been better spent if they could subsidize the entry fees; $20 is not a lot, but wow! I would feel great if I registered and the president gave me a discount, it would make me feel like an appreciated customer, and I would certainly come back! Kind of like going to your favorite restaurant and the owner greets you by name and sends you a dessert on the house! That would make me want to go back!

This generation of car enthusiast is tech savvy; want less, rules, more racing bang for the buck and lots of return to allow them to share their experiences on social media.
Just my two cents, and my fellow racers know I don’t like to talk on here, but I have to say I love the people that are involved and supported the region and help me find my passion to race, I hope there will be a change, and hope racing in Ontario will one day, be fun again.

DavidSim
06-29-2015, 08:18 PM
>>Is the real problem their just isn't an appetite for Road Racing any more?<<

There are so many things for young people to spend their money on these days, both necessity and discretionary items. I have two grown up daughters 20 and 23 and neither they or their friends (both male and female) appear to have any interest in cars whatsoever (in fact some of them don't even have a driver's license). The hot topic (from what I have gleaned) is the cost of housing, their jobs (or lack thereof), how they'll ever be able to afford things their parents have, etc.

Now don't get me wrong, I am sure there are a lot of young people who would like to try Road Racing, but I'll bet most don't have the money to put together even a basic program (car, trailer, tow vehicle, get a race license, pay the expenses to go racing, etc.); I just spent over $2,000 to go to the CTMP race this past weekend, that was just fees/gas/tires (e.g. race fee, Friday practice fee, $120 of 94 octane, 4 sticker tires, etc.) and I live in Pickering and went home each night to eat and sleep.

Frankly it is the older folks who have the money in many cases, homes paid off, kids grown up and moved out, good jobs and/or pensions, etc. In fact, if you look around the pits at the racers that have nice vehicles on the track many are as one would say "up in years"; don't be offended as I fall in to that category too. I'll bet that many of the younger folks who are racing in nice cars (e.g. some of the Formula Ford racers) have their parents money behind them to do so.

So, what does it all mean, I don't know, but I can tell you this that it appears to me that you need a lot of passion and money these days to make it on the track in race mode. You can fire the passion, but if there is no money in the kitty then it is all for naught.

Steven Scala
06-30-2015, 10:15 AM
If conditions are favourable for rent-a-ride teams, drivers can enter without the cost and commitment of outright car ownership. For this to happen, you need a marketable series that is able to capitalize on and fortify its own marketability. This requires a sponsorship policy that acknowledges market segmentation and sponsor targets.

Bill Lobban
06-30-2015, 10:35 AM
If conditions are favourable for rent-a-ride teams, drivers can enter without the cost and commitment of outright car ownership. For this to happen, you need a marketable series that is able to capitalize on and fortify its own marketability. This requires a sponsorship policy that acknowledges market segmentation and sponsor targets.

This sounds like the Toyo Tires F1600 Championship Steven, which attracts rent-a-rides and younger and older drivers very successfully.

James Appell
06-30-2015, 11:20 AM
I think GT Challenge being cancelled this weekend should be the least of everyone who posted concerns. Looking at recent entries in ALL road racing in Ontario isn't good. Both Chump Car events had about 46 entries, CTCC at Shannonville had about 17 entries, CASC this weekend has 90 or so pre-entries and even my little series has 30 prepaid entries for July 11th.
.......

Is the real problem their just isn't an appetite for Road Racing any more?.

You seem to have missed the obvious here ABR.
CASC event..... 90 entries
Chumpcar....... 46
ABR event....... 30
CTCC.............. 17
___
.................. 183 entries
Does it remind you a little of ChampCar vs. IRL or ALMS vs. IMSA/NASCAR ?

abrracing
06-30-2015, 12:26 PM
James I didnt miss anything. Each series offers something completely different trying to appeal to the Road Racers. When I started doing this in 2004 there were events at Mosport that had 200 entries. Over the years racers have left, some retired some went to other things like stock cars etc. The younger generation doesn't seem to have any interest in wheel to wheel competition they seem to prefer Time Attack or Drifting. I wish I had the magic answer.

abrracing
06-30-2015, 12:32 PM
As one of the race teams that committed multiple cars and a sponsor to the series, I have to say my peace, and this post will likely get pulled because the powers to be does not want my opinion to influence members here. Forget the power to weight, and the bracket classes, that is not the real cause, these are just some small issues that we can all overcome, once and if the series is viable and people want to be part of. For me the competition in my class was getting stronger and with great cars and competitor, so I am sad to see the series fail.

Anyone that runs a business or manages one with success will tell you, that this organization has failed to recognize how important a customer is! The way the region treats their customers/racer and sponsors is why we are here today! I have raced the past year in SCCA Trans am, SCCA regionals and currently in the USA with IMSA. All of these series are firm and have rules and most times very strict, but they all have one thing in common, they know how to treat their customers! I know I know! CASC is just managed by volunteers etc., but the fundamentals of business apply, you have to listen to your customers, and give them some respect instead of swatting them and belittling them! Donít challenge your customers and tell them they need to have an inspection hole drilled in their FIA certified cage or they canít race! Or that they have to have two return springs on their throttle body, when the car was designed with fly by wire controls!

Someone mentioned here that the multi club system is redundant and streamlining and combining resources will make for a more sensible, efficient organization. Would this cut operation cost? Perhaps help lower the cost of entries?
As a member of SCCA, I can tell you that they are going through the same problems that we are having, and car counts are down, but! The difference is, they are listening to their customers! And are proactive in creating new programs to attract new blood and old guys to come back to their club. Mid week track night/ lapping days, bracket enduros with less class restrictions, these are just some of the new programs that SCCA has introduced to turn that ship around. Sorry, I donít think the fancy expensive videos are going to bring new blood to racing. Perhaps that money would have been better spent if they could subsidize the entry fees; $20 is not a lot, but wow! I would feel great if I registered and the president gave me a discount, it would make me feel like an appreciated customer, and I would certainly come back! Kind of like going to your favorite restaurant and the owner greets you by name and sends you a dessert on the house! That would make me want to go back!

This generation of car enthusiast is tech savvy; want less, rules, more racing bang for the buck and lots of return to allow them to share their experiences on social media.
Just my two cents, and my fellow racers know I donít like to talk on here, but I have to say I love the people that are involved and supported the region and help me find my passion to race, I hope there will be a change, and hope racing in Ontario will one day, be fun again.

Well said......................bottom line is "the customer is always right"

endura
06-30-2015, 01:29 PM
You seem to have missed the obvious here ABR.
CASC event..... 90 entries
Chumpcar....... 46
ABR event....... 30
CTCC.............. 17
___
.................. 183 entries
Does it remind you a little of ChampCar vs. IRL or ALMS vs. IMSA/NASCAR ?

snapshot of time can be misleading at best. what's the 5-10 year historical trend-line?

Steven Scala
06-30-2015, 06:24 PM
The younger generation doesn't seem to have any interest in wheel to wheel competition they seem to prefer Time Attack or Drifting.

That certainly applies for those youth in the owner/driver subset. The ones with career ambitions in pro driving do tend to stick with the open-wheel stuff, and are a mainstay in the F1200/F1600/F2000 business plan. The karts-to-cars program complements this path.

The sedan side has had a huge hole in the sub-$3K rent-a-ride market for the last decade, however, and that's where ChumpCar's hit us hardest. A clear closed-wheel ladder to CTCC would have strengthened our prospects in this segment, and GT Challenge had presented the ideal platform to support this.

ROTARY ROCKET
07-03-2015, 06:26 PM
Agreed Steven, shared drive in a one hour race, team points, one day format, had all the right ingredients! I just looked at the entry cost for the fall classic at Tremblant, $375 ! :confused:

Move Motorsport
07-06-2015, 05:22 PM
The DAC Bay of Quinte Grand Prix, July 18/19 at Shannonville does have a GT Challenge scheduled so get signed up early if this is the style of racing you enjoy.

Saturday night dinner is always exceptional at DAC events and there is a drivers after party in Belleville from 8-9:30 (announced tomorrow)

We will be racing the pro track as well...time to step up.

23Racer
07-06-2015, 06:46 PM
We will be entering at least 1 car for the GT Challenge at Shannonville. Hopefully we can 2 manned.

Eric

Move Motorsport
07-06-2015, 09:57 PM
Great news Eric...please head over to motorsport reg and sign up...you don't have to pay right away but please sign up.

Move Motorsport
07-07-2015, 03:01 PM
Great to see we have Gary Browne, Piotr Nytko and Mark Gawronski all entered for the GT Challenge race at the Bay of Quinte Grand Prix.

Great time slot for the race as well!

If you love the single day, one hour format then be sure and sign up!

Move Motorsport
07-07-2015, 09:10 PM
Hey GT Challenge guys, for the last two weeks this has been the most viewed (Over 3,000) and the most commented on (over 3 pages) thread, in large part because the GT Challenge race was cancelled at BARC.

Well, now we have one and all I hear is crickets.

It's a cool format, it's the pro track which most GT competitors said they wanted and a great time slot...sign up and let's just race.

Jason.

luker0
07-08-2015, 12:01 AM
Sorry Jason, my budget can only afford two regional races this year due to increased fees. I'll only be doing the Calabogie events this year.

Maverickflyer
07-08-2015, 01:50 AM
I am signed up and will be participating in my first GT Challenge race. I'm looking forward to some good racing. Lets get the word out there and start signing up.

Kart14
07-08-2015, 07:55 AM
I'll be there. Just not sure yet that I'll be running Challenge.

AlfaKen
07-08-2015, 08:03 PM
Sorry Jason, my budget can only afford two regional races this year due to increased fees. I'll only be doing the Calabogie events this year.

This issue keeps coming up, but I don't remember anyone mentioning how much they have gone up. Have they gone up as much as the cost of a case of beer, a tank of gas? Fortunately for me, I haven't paid a lot of attention so I don't remember how much the entries were last year.

Civic EF
07-08-2015, 09:12 PM
...I don't remember anyone mentioning how much they have gone up. Have they gone up as much as the cost of a case of beer, a tank of gas? Fortunately for me, I haven't paid a lot of attention so I don't remember how much the entries were last year.

I agree with you Ken, the decrease in fuel costs more than offset any increase in fees.

Someone mentioned Tremblant last Fall, it wasn't $375, but $450 for the same amount of time as CASC GT Sprints ($365 for the Friday Test Day). SPC charges $560 for a one day event! We were 9 cars in GT at Icar 2 weeks ago! So things aren't much rosier/cheaper/encouraging on this side of the border.

That's why I'll be joining you guys for Shannonville, Calabogie, and Indian Summer, those are still the best deals in Ont-QC. You should try to make Tremblant Fall Classic Sept 25-27, good value, great track and lots of cars come out.

luker0
07-08-2015, 09:38 PM
This issue keeps coming up, but I don't remember anyone mentioning how much they have gone up. Have they gone up as much as the cost of a case of beer, a tank of gas? Fortunately for me, I haven't paid a lot of attention so I don't remember how much the entries were last year.

Since I started racing 5 summers ago fees have gone from $375 to $500. Enough is enough, I have other options for racing.

Also, for me to haul to CTMP for a weekend I would end up spending $1000 in fees and expenses for one entry, before the car even comes off the trailer. About $900 for Shannonville. Add in consumables and it is just too much.

racerguy19
07-09-2015, 10:21 AM
Since I started racing 5 summers ago fees have gone from $375 to $500. Enough is enough, I have other options for racing.

Also, for me to haul to CTMP for a weekend I would end up spending $1000 in fees and expenses for one entry, before the car even comes off the trailer. About $900 for Shannonville. Add in consumables and it is just too much.

Just out of curiosity, what are your costs to race elsewhere? And in what type of racing.

Thanks,

Steve

luker0
07-09-2015, 02:47 PM
Just out of curiosity, what are your costs to race elsewhere? And in what type of racing.

Thanks,

Steve

Costs range from $250-500 depending on where and what organization and races look to be 30 minutes to 3 hours. Then there is Chumpcar which I have not done the complete math on this time, since I'm currently considering running anything over 1 hour stints. BUt I am told the $/hr of track time comes out to much less than what CASC-OR charges.

If I'm going to be spending larger sums of money to go to CTMP for example due to increased fees, then why not look at going to places like Watkins Glen, Mid-Ohio and other places I've always wanted to go. I did the math on one race at Watkins Glen and it ended up being $100 cheaper than a weekend at CTMP even including the extra fuel to tow.

racerguy19
07-09-2015, 02:51 PM
Thanks Luker0, I appreciate the info. Being new to racing this year I'm looking at all opportunities that are available for me to race within the budget I have.

Cheers,

Steve

luker0
07-09-2015, 03:07 PM
Here is specific details of my frustrations with fees. I will pick on the 3 Hour Enduro in September as I have detailed records going back to 2010.

2010 - $450
2012 - $595
2014 - $750

That is a huge 166% increase in fees over 4 years. I'm pretty sure organization costs have not gone up by 166%. Or I could be wrong and we're all doomed.

Move Motorsport
07-09-2015, 03:10 PM
Thanks Luker we'll see you at Calabogie.

Let's focus on the guys that are coming out to the GT Challenge race at the Bay of Quinte Grand Prix.

So far we have a Nissan, 2 Mazdas, a VW, Honda, Porsche and a Ford...pretty cool.

Things are shaping up...if you are tinkling about entering this race sign up and let everyone know.

thekid
07-12-2015, 10:20 PM
Just out of curiosity, what are your costs to race elsewhere? And in what type of racing.

Thanks,

Steve

Just to give you an idea of CASC vs. Chump, simply from a cost perspective, no one is going to argue that Chump is running the fastest cars, hardly the case, but there are plenty of great battles to be had...

My experiences this year, all these are based on 2 stints ~ 105mins per stint (or 3.5hrs per weekend of seat time), all in cost (racing, lodging, etc.):
CTMP in April ~ $600
WGI in May ~ $800
CMP in June ~ $800
Laguna Seca in July ~ $1900 (keep in mind there was 6200 miles of towing, hotels for 11 nights)

Now if we just look at entry fees, and not the other costs (tires, fuel, towing, accomodations), Chump is normally about $1200 for 14hrs of track time. Their format allows you to split costs with 2-4 other guys depending on the race length. Chump also rewards it's podium winners with "future race credit", helping to further keep costs down.

I only raced CASC for one season (2007), back when entries were $375/weekend. But all the other costs that you aren't splitting with anyone else add up. Cost and work kept me away from racing for 3 years until Chump arrived on the scene in 2010. I can now run 4-6 events per year with Chump for the previous cost of one weekend in CASC.

I don't know the solution, I'm merely trying to provide some basis for comparison to help CASC out. I'd love to see CASC successful again, it's where I got my start (AutoX --> Time Attack --> Race).

terrydale
07-12-2015, 11:04 PM
I am all about looking forward and looking for ways that we can rather than for all of the reasons why we cannot.

I am also involved in organising two CASC regional races this year.

And I am a regional racer at heart having started in 1967 at Mosport with my TR2 and then going on to race for the next 25 years in various classes and series.

So, with all of that and reading everyone's comments - I am still somewhat staggered by the GT Challenge entry at this year's CMP/MCO May Madness Race at Calabogie Motorsports Park. As it was an inaugural event, we offered up a schedule with tons of track time and created a unique entry fee rebate program for a single day entry as low as $450. We also offered up a 2-4-1 entry fee package so that you could enter GT Challenge AND GT Sprints FOR THE SAME PRICE!! We ended up with 12 in GT Sprints and 13 in GT Challenge. Thanks to all who showed up! Where was everyone else???

I know that there are lots of very valid reasons for why some did not attend. All I am saying - as a racer - is that if an organizer tries really hard to listen and react in a positive way to what is being given as the reasons why racers won't come to an event, then maybe a little extra effort to show support to that organizer might help support the argument.

MCO's Ted Powell Race in August WILL have GT Challenge on the schedule. We will have ALL of the Race Groups on the schedule. We work very hard to make your weekend successful and to have you saying that you can't wait to come back because you had a great time on and off the track.

We want your business!! Please help us help you!! :)

luker0
07-13-2015, 09:47 PM
Thank you Terry. We will have an entry for sure at Ted Powell.

Track Mom
07-21-2015, 12:47 PM
Hi All: BARC does have the Challenge Race on the Schedule for our next race weekend. Aug. 1/2. Come guys sign up (early) lets get the counts up (hopefully the weather will cooperate this time). We love to see you guys race .:)

Maverickflyer
07-21-2015, 11:40 PM
This was my first GT Challenge race. Even though I had a mechanical failure take me out of the race I had a great time. The people were all very friendly and willing to help. I like the power to weight format and the longer races. I'm hooked now so I'll definitely be back! Thanks to all the organizers and volunteers.