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2TH PWR
07-08-2015, 01:37 PM
Many of us have AIM Solo data units. Are you wondering how you managed to beat someone or how they managed to beat you? It is a driver's championship afterall.

If you aren't too shy to share if you send me your data file to mgardner.dds@gmail.com and I can usually post a time vs distance graph that overlays your data against an opponent/ or opponents in the series. It can also show metre by metre where you gained or lost time.

I already have files from 3 competitors and I'll see what I can do with them tonight.

I'll take TMP and MIR files right now if you are curious. Interesting stuff.

Saj5DJ
07-08-2015, 02:08 PM
Have a bunch of Miata ones from the last couple of years. Will send them your way.

wparsons
07-08-2015, 04:26 PM
Awesome offer, should be really interesting to see the results!

jimmo-san
07-08-2015, 07:05 PM
I offer my data in the name of Science and the betterment of mankind. Oh, yeah, and for the betterment of my lap times. :)

Mike, e-mail sent earlier today.

2TH PWR
07-08-2015, 07:09 PM
I offer my data in the name of Science and the betterment of mankind. Oh, yeah, and for the betterment of my lap times. :)

Mike, e-mail sent earlier today.

I received yours, Gregs, James', and of course mine. I'll maybe put Jims up against Barry's. Miata vs Miata. at TMP and MIR when I get the files.

Unfortunately I think I can only work with AIM data. Maybe someone else can do the other systems?

2TH PWR
07-08-2015, 10:12 PM
please attach .drk file

working on a few.

Saj5DJ
07-08-2015, 11:06 PM
Sent a couple there Mike. Not much else from MIR and TMP. Have a few from DDT (old & new), SMP and Grand Bend.

2TH PWR
07-08-2015, 11:28 PM
Toronto Motorsports Park.

Gardner SGT1 350Z (Green) 1:16.57
Fung SGT2 911 GTS (Blue) 1:20.36

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j300/2THPWR/fung%20gardner%20tmp_zpsgolcltby.jpg (http://s83.photobucket.com/user/2THPWR/media/fung%20gardner%20tmp_zpsgolcltby.jpg.html)

Top box speed vs distance down the track.
Bottom box. Time difference in seconds between the two cars at that point on the track.

Notes. 350Z and GTS accelerate and brake identically.
The Z has much more grip. The Z makes use of a couple tricks to extend it's lead. The cars use different approaches to 2, 4/5, 6, and especially 10.

2TH PWR
07-08-2015, 11:34 PM
MIR
Gardner SGt1 350Z Green
Fung SGT2 911 GTS Blue

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j300/2THPWR/fung%20vs%20g_zpsd8df8sqh.jpg (http://s83.photobucket.com/user/2THPWR/media/fung%20vs%20g_zpsd8df8sqh.jpg.html)

The Z is down on power this time on the GTS. But uses superior grip to generate a 2+ second lead into 5. This is promptly erased by the GTS who takes 5 great and then powers away down the straight. Z comes back through 8 to be slightly faster. cut off slightly due to changes in start/finish.

Greg Campbell
07-08-2015, 11:39 PM
The Z is down on power this time on the GTS. But uses superior grip to generate a 2+ second lead into 5. This is promptly erased by the GTS who takes 5 great and then powers away down the straight. Z comes back through 8 to be slightly faster. cut off slightly due to changes in start/finish.

Lol, you should be a motorsports commentator. Just fake a British accent.

2TH PWR
07-08-2015, 11:50 PM
Lol, you should be a motorsports commentator. Just fake a British accent.

you sent me DDt twice! check email *british accent*

2TH PWR
07-09-2015, 12:08 AM
Miata Battle at MIR

Barry Black 1:44.81
Jim Red. 1:58.41

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j300/2THPWR/miatasmir_zpsdck7vx3l.jpg (http://s83.photobucket.com/user/2THPWR/media/miatasmir_zpsdck7vx3l.jpg.html)

Barry is making more grip or better use of his grip on the Rivals. Power is similar but Barry is carrying more speed everywhere. Jim brakes for 4 while Barry's accelerator is flat to the floor.

2TH PWR
07-09-2015, 12:41 AM
New DDT 1K
Campbell C6 SGT3 1:30.12 (Black)
Gardner 350Z SGT1 1:29.71 (Red)

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j300/2THPWR/campgardddt_zpsfnzs6eof.jpg (http://s83.photobucket.com/user/2THPWR/media/campgardddt_zpsfnzs6eof.jpg.html)

Corvette slightly out accelerates the Z. The Z has more grip. Overall performance on this track was similar see sawing back and forth constantly. The driver's have a different style at this track. Gardner late brakes and late apexes almost everything (front endlink ended up being broken, car extremely loose mid corner). Campbell is more traditional. Biggest difference is Gardner over brakes for the left hand turn onto the downhill, likely due to braking too late in the first place.

thgear
07-09-2015, 10:13 AM
maybe make the lateral acceleration lines a colour other than white? :)

also, some of these look to be misaligned.. I'm assuming not all were done using the same equipment on the same day?

for those which were imported independently I'd suggest the use the snap on/off function to align the distances, since they probably had the start/finish beacon at different intervals.

jimmo-san
07-09-2015, 11:07 AM
Barry is making more grip or better use of his grip on the Rivals. Power is similar but Barry is carrying more speed everywhere. Jim brakes for 4 while Barry's accelerator is flat to the floor.

I always wondered whether I really needed to brake at 4. Will try being lighter on the brake next time. :o And faster everywhere!

wparsons
07-09-2015, 12:02 PM
Biggest difference is Gardner over brakes for the left hand turn onto the downhill, likely due to braking too late in the first place.

Just from observing at event 1 and 2, you definitely got better into that turn (whatever number it is) through the weekend, but looked like there was still more speed to be had there.

Saj5DJ
07-09-2015, 12:30 PM
My data also included a brake tap for 8 that I've since gotten rid of.

Have a good amount left on the table in 2 as well.

Greg Campbell
07-09-2015, 12:34 PM
Just from observing at event 1 and 2, you definitely got better into that turn (whatever number it is) through the weekend, but looked like there was still more speed to be had there.

For me and my car, that downhill turn is less of a corner to carry the most speed possible and more of a transitional corner that is impacted by how you took the preceeding right hander and how you want to set up for the following downhill section. Because it is downhill, with little track width for error I tend to not focus on braking as late as possible here instead focusing on being as far track left for the preceeding right hander and hug the right hand curb all the way to the downhill braking point. After turning I try and get on the power as soon as possible (often riding the curb on the right that falls down the hill). You can see the impact on my entry in the above speed chart as I am bleeding out of the throttle well before the braking zone to make sure I am as far track right as possible. The advantage is also seen in the data as I am back on the gas sooner and get a better top speed on that small straight (also a super helpful line for passing in the morning practice sessions).

Data is really cool. Thanks Mike.

2TH PWR
07-09-2015, 01:06 PM
maybe make the lateral acceleration lines a colour other than white? :)

also, some of these look to be misaligned.. I'm assuming not all were done using the same equipment on the same day?

for those which were imported independently I'd suggest the use the snap on/off function to align the distances, since they probably had the start/finish beacon at different intervals.

I thought it was realllly busy with multiple colours on the same graph, but if you want I can do that with future ones. Max lat Gs are listed.
I'll try that function. You could make some and post some too.

wparsons
07-09-2015, 01:20 PM
For me and my car, that downhill turn is less of a corner to carry the most speed possible and more of a transitional corner that is impacted by how you took the preceeding right hander and how you want to set up for the following downhill section. Because it is downhill, with little track width for error I tend to not focus on braking as late as possible here instead focusing on being as far track left for the preceeding right hander and hug the right hand curb all the way to the downhill braking point. After turning I try and get on the power as soon as possible (often riding the curb on the right that falls down the hill). You can see the impact on my entry in the above speed chart as I am bleeding out of the throttle well before the braking zone to make sure I am as far track right as possible. The advantage is also seen in the data as I am back on the gas sooner and get a better top speed on that small straight (also a super helpful line for passing in the morning practice sessions).

Data is really cool. Thanks Mike.

My observation was just in comparison to other cars on track at the same time, not relative to speed he was taking other corners at. I'd 100% agree it's more of a setup corner.

thgear
07-09-2015, 01:22 PM
I'll try that function. You could make some and post some too.

all my data threads are in the autocross section... I'm a regular contributor ;)

also, you don't have to have them on the same graph, in the top right corner you have the option to choose whether you want each graph separately or overlaid ( L, LL, and LLL).

another also, you don't have white out graphs you don't need.. just unclick them from the side menu.

Saj5DJ
07-09-2015, 01:29 PM
There's a "beacon shift" function as well that allows you to square up everybody's traces. Problem is we're all a bit messy about where we set our Start/Finish line when we setup our AIM's.

It's a bit of a PITA feature to use though, takes some playing with.

scorcherjf
07-09-2015, 01:43 PM
Awesome, thanks for these graphs. Really interesting to see the data compared across many cars/drivers. I need to try a few different things at TMP now that I can see your data and line from your video. You really know that track well! 1.7 G's is also pretty crazy!

Snizzoop
07-09-2015, 02:25 PM
There's a "beacon shift" function as well that allows you to square up everybody's traces. Problem is we're all a bit messy about where we set our Start/Finish line when we setup our AIM's.

It's a bit of a PITA feature to use though, takes some playing with.

Isn't there a database of tracks that people can download from? I have no idea...I'm genuinely asking if such a thing exists.

2TH PWR
07-09-2015, 02:34 PM
Awesome, thanks for these graphs. Really interesting to see the data compared across many cars/drivers. I need to try a few different things at TMP now that I can see your data and line from your video. You really know that track well! 1.7 G's is also pretty crazy!

Yes that's the peak # tossing the car around Left Turn 6. That's the most I have ever seen as well.

2TH PWR
07-09-2015, 02:34 PM
Isn't there a database of tracks that people can download from? I have no idea...I'm genuinely asking if such a thing exists.

Yes I think so.

thgear
07-09-2015, 02:42 PM
Isn't there a database of tracks that people can download from? I have no idea...I'm genuinely asking if such a thing exists.

*IF* you downloaded from AIM their version of map-X, and so did everyone else, it should align

but if you set up your own map by simply selecting a start line and then letting the unit figure out when you've crossed it twice, then that will be slightly different.

regardless though, at times things get weird and require human intervention (hence the beacon/distance shifting)

jimmo-san
07-09-2015, 04:19 PM
Forgot to thank Mike in my earlier post for doing all this work. Then my internet crapped out. :mad: So: thanks Mike for taking the time to do this. Really appreciated!

(And I'm humbled to be compared to Barry's times in the Miata. Barry is the ultimate competitor, on MIR and the other tracks OTA holds events on.)

Lloyd_
07-09-2015, 04:32 PM
MIR
Gardner SGt1 350Z Green
Fung SGT2 911 GTS Blue


The Z is down on power this time on the GTS. But uses superior grip to generate a 2+ second lead into 5. This is promptly erased by the GTS who takes 5 great and then powers away down the straight. Z comes back through 8 to be slightly faster. cut off slightly due to changes in start/finish.

Soft compound TD? How many days/heat cycles/use on them?

2TH PWR
07-09-2015, 10:39 PM
Campbell SGT3 C6 1:32.366 Red = speed. Pink = Lateral G
Fung SGT2 911GTS 1:35.065 Dark Blue = speed. Light blue Lateral G

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j300/2THPWR/fung%20campbell%20mir_zpsfqjheiwg.jpg (http://s83.photobucket.com/user/2THPWR/media/fung%20campbell%20mir_zpsfqjheiwg.jpg.html)

The corvette out accelerates the 911 and also has more grip. That doesn't explain all of the time difference though. I wonder which tires the two competitors are using?

2TH PWR
07-09-2015, 10:44 PM
Soft compound TD? How many days/heat cycles/use on them?

Soft and limited use on 4 different days. I save them for when I'm getting killed out there. Otherwise I use an older set most of the time.

But I also have data in the same corner when my Z weighed 3400 lbs on z1 star specs peaking 1.6 G in that same corner.

Saj5DJ
07-09-2015, 11:23 PM
You're too kind Jim!

I do reckon my MIR runs leave a lot of improvement on the table, but in general, the times I could get at any of the tracks we run at owe alot to the instruction I got as a rookie AND the instruction I got from other competitors over the years.

Let us know when you're talking Shannonville data. I'm pretty proud of that one and very thankful to Corey for the guidance he gave that got me there.

Greg Campbell
07-09-2015, 11:45 PM
The corvette out accelerates the 911 and also has more grip. That doesn't explain all of the time difference though. I wonder which tires the two competitors are using?

The tires are a bit counterintuitive; I'm on AD08Rs and I think the Porsche is on NT01. What I am surprised at is how much my acceleration is giving the time. Peak G and corner speeds are similar is just the motor pulling down the lap time.

scorcherjf
07-09-2015, 11:50 PM
Campbell SGT3 C6 1:32.366 Red = speed. Pink = Lateral G
Fung SGT2 911GTS 1:35.065 Dark Blue = speed. Light blue Lateral G

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j300/2THPWR/fung%20campbell%20mir_zpsfqjheiwg.jpg (http://s83.photobucket.com/user/2THPWR/media/fung%20campbell%20mir_zpsfqjheiwg.jpg.html)

The corvette out accelerates the 911 and also has more grip. That doesn't explain all of the time difference though. I wonder which tires the two competitors are using?
Nice. Looks like most of the time is had from turns 1 to 5, then the straight obviously. I'm losing almost 2 seconds on the straight alone - didn't know the C6 was that much more powerful! Pretty much every corner the vette is faster - probably a combination of more experience, better line, and perhaps either more tire grip or chassis grip (911 is limited with struts up front). I'm running Nitto NT-01's so I've got modern street tire grip pretty much yet classed with r-comps :(

2TH PWR
07-10-2015, 12:06 AM
Nice. Looks like most of the time is had from turns 1 to 5, then the straight obviously. Pretty much every corner the vette is faster - probably a combination of more experience, better line, and perhaps either more tire grip or chassis grip (911 is limited with struts up front). I'm running Nitto NT-01's so I've got modern street tire grip pretty much yet classed with r-comps :(

Yes your car could easily be faster and in SGT3 at the same time.
You consistently are 1.25 to 1.29 lateral G.
Greg is consistently 1.35 to 1.41 lateral G.
across both sets of data I've been given.

2TH PWR
07-10-2015, 01:00 AM
Gardner fastest lap vs Campbell fastest lap at MIR.
You can see the Z's engine isn't completely heat soaked out yet, but the R compound TDs aren't up to temp yet so not making the same grip.

grip is pretty much equal. Z's grip starts to pick up a little toward the end of the lap only. C6 has big acceleration advantage. It usually wouldn't be quite this drastic but the Z was not well.
Z carries slight lead into 5 and then gives up against the C6 with slight regaining of time at end of 8-9-10.

Lloyd_
07-10-2015, 03:23 AM
Soft and limited use on 4 different days. I save them for when I'm getting killed out there. Otherwise I use an older set most of the time.

But I also have data in the same corner when my Z weighed 3400 lbs on z1 star specs peaking 1.6 G in that same corner.

How many competitive days (or is it measured in laps) do you feel you get out of them? My forum research has been ambiguous, although I have heard them called "Two Days".

2TH PWR
07-10-2015, 12:09 PM
Id say they are very fast the first 10 heat cycles.

Then competitive the next 10.

And still better than most streets out to 55 heat cycles.

But with AD08R and RE71R able to pull 1.4+ G in different data sets I've seen I might use those next year.

I usually get 1.55+ lateral G on the TDs as registered max.

2TH PWR
07-11-2015, 12:44 AM
3 "low power" competitors and an interesting graph.
Green Gardner. 350Z. "Over heated"
Red K. Morris Dwarf car
Yellow Barry Miata.

the limping Z still has the most power(woot) .Barry and Kevin are flat through 4. Mike isn't there yet and still lifts. (doh)

Keep them coming people. No "secrets" here.

Saj5DJ
07-11-2015, 02:02 PM
I wasn't doing too bad til the back straight there :)

2TH PWR
07-16-2015, 10:08 AM
^ Not to bad at all, but I thought I was bored headed up the back straight. :D

Does anyone have any Shannonville or Calabogie Data to send over?:cool:

Lots of viewers, only 6 contributors.

thgear
07-16-2015, 10:32 AM
Lots of viewers, only 6 contributors.

AIM products are expensive

Saj5DJ
07-16-2015, 11:11 AM
^ Not to bad at all, but I thought I was bored headed up the back straight. :D

Does anyone have any Shannonville or Calabogie Data to send over?:cool:

Lots of viewers, only 6 contributors.

Will send my SMP full track data from last year.

Greg Campbell
07-16-2015, 11:31 AM
Does anyone have any Shannonville or Calabogie Data to send over?:cool:



You may not get much representative Calabogie data until after next month's event. MCO's HPDE/Lapping events discourage the use of lap timers/data acquisition as those events are focused on driver education rather than improving lap times.

That being said, I'll throw up a post on the MCO forum to see if anyone has any AIM data they would like to share.

3wheeler
07-16-2015, 01:22 PM
I wish I could offer some up but my car only had a AiM Strada race dash which has no data logging capability. It did however allow me to see laptimes and splits. If I still had the car I would sell it off and go with the Pista..

Grant may have some TMP data from my runs there a few weeks back and Steve may have some from the shootout last year as I borrowed his AiM Solo.

I have lots of video though. Search Corey W. on youtube.

2TH PWR
07-16-2015, 02:44 PM
You may not get much representative Calabogie data until after next month's event. MCO's HPDE/Lapping events discourage the use of lap timers/data acquisition as those events are focused on driver education rather than improving lap times.

That being said, I'll throw up a post on the MCO forum to see if anyone has any AIM data they would like to share.

Calabogie is very snooty. I'm not welcome there.

I imagine the conversation would go something like this.

- Calabogie: "Why are you here?"
- Me: "To collect data and video so that I can go as fast as possible, with little regard for the preservation of my vehicle"... "Also I've been told my car is a bit loud although it seems fine to me."
- Calabogie: ......No track for you.

kmorris
07-16-2015, 03:28 PM
Calabogie is very snooty. I'm not welcome there.

I imagine the conversation would go something like this.

- Calabogie: "Why are you here?"
- Me: "To collect data and video so that I can go as fast as possible, with little regard for the preservation of my vehicle"... "Also I've been told my car is a bit loud although it seems fine to me."
- Calabogie: ......No track for you.

I can lend you a muffler - I'm bringing an extra one along...:D

wparsons
07-16-2015, 04:42 PM
Just get a cheap mild steel universal muffler from Canadian Tire and strap it on with lots of duct tape and zip ties. Bonus points if you get colorful tape and ties :D

2TH PWR
07-16-2015, 09:21 PM
I've dropped out of Calabogie to fix my car. I'll be back for Shannonville and Grandbend.

Greg Campbell
07-17-2015, 10:04 AM
Calabogie is very snooty. I'm not welcome there.

I imagine the conversation would go something like this.

- Calabogie: "Why are you here?"
- Me: "To collect data and video so that I can go as fast as possible, with little regard for the preservation of my vehicle"... "Also I've been told my car is a bit loud although it seems fine to me."
- Calabogie: ......No track for you.

You no doubt have some humor in there for fun, but I would like to say that despite some different technical requirements (such as the sound limit) Calabogie is an excellent facility and well worth the visit. The sound lmit exists because unlike Mosport which is surrounded by quarry, Calabogie is in the middle of Ottawa cottage country and the town of Calabogie is resort/tourist focused. The track also has a slightly different purpose as it was built in the 90s as wealthy playboy/corporate retreat rather than strictly a competitive race venue which means they tend to target a different slice of the market.

All that said, Calabogie is still miles more welcoming and accomodating than Cicuit Mt Tremblant which won't return your phone calls unless you are part of a Ferrari or Porsche club and the owner reserves the right to shut the track down at any time (even when booked) if he wants to go lapping himself.

jimmo-san
07-17-2015, 01:45 PM
A question for all of you AIM users.

You can view the line that you are taking on a given track using the "GPS Data" view. This does not show your line in relation to the track boundaries since, of course, AIM has no knowledge of the track boundaries. But you can at least compare two laps to compare the line you are taking.

However, if two AIM users were to walk the track, one on the inside edge and one on the outside edge then we could create a track map for use with the "GPS Data" view. If you were to overlay any given lap with the inside edge and outside edge GPS line, then the "GPS view" could show your line in relation to the track boundaries. Then you would have a "GPS View" that would show something like this (minus the text and green arrows, of course):

http://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d390dad3dfa1213f08b635b329f81c3c?convert_to_webp=true

Useful? Or not? Or is there another way to incorporate the track boundary data into AIM?

I volunteer to walk SMP, Long and Pro. I'll even take the outside edge. :D

Of course it would be possible to drive around edges of the track, but with some loss of accuracy. :)

condor888000
07-17-2015, 04:21 PM
Getting back to the question about Bogie data I have a few files from last year. I'll have to dig them out and post up, might take me a bit to find them.

I'm also dog slow, so there won't be too much interesting in them, but at least it's something.

schmoo-msm
07-19-2015, 03:27 PM
Here are two drk files from an MXL and SmartCAM. Both are from CMP Full Track

2:20.6XX (http://www.uncommonpear.com/Naresh Debidin - MSM - Z214C51.drk)

2:25.0XX (http://www.uncommonpear.com/Naresh Debidin - MSM - RS3.drk)

N

schmoo-msm
07-19-2015, 04:52 PM
You may not get much representative Calabogie data until after next month's event. MCO's HPDE/Lapping events discourage the use of lap timers/data acquisition as those events are focused on driver education rather than improving lap times.

That being said, I'll throw up a post on the MCO forum to see if anyone has any AIM data they would like to share.

Not sure who gave Greg this impression (motorsport is filled with people who confuse the rules with what someone told them were in the rules, or what they think should be the rules), but many of us use laptimers at lapping days. ASN Lapping Rules Section 12 prohibits timing by organizers, not by participants.

2TH PWR
07-20-2015, 11:54 AM
some data received. will post later. would be nice to get some more to make comparisons.

ScotcH
07-20-2015, 12:25 PM
some data received. will post later. would be nice to get some more to make comparisons.

I have some sessions from CMP, but they will be full on race cars ... is that of value to you?

Greg Campbell
07-20-2015, 12:28 PM
I have some sessions from CMP, but they will be full on race cars ... is that of value to you?

I think everything is valuable as long as we have some details on the cars (weight, power, tires, etc.) for comparison. We have some near-race cars in OTA or cars that would be close on a power to weight basis.

wparsons
07-21-2015, 11:31 AM
I think everything is valuable as long as we have some details on the cars (weight, power, tires, etc.) for comparison. We have some near-race cars in OTA or cars that would be close on a power to weight basis.

And if the data is from laps with traffic, or a clean run.

ScotcH
07-21-2015, 03:43 PM
Ok, I'll send some data tonight if I can get it organized. PM me an email address to send to.

wparsons
07-21-2015, 04:56 PM
From the original post:

mgardner.dds@gmail.com

jimmo-san
07-21-2015, 08:17 PM
Naresh's Mazdaspeed Miata vs. my '97 Miata. (Thanks for the data, Naresh. Much appreciated!)

I can't match the MSM's acceleration on the straights (had the throttle mashed to the carpet much of the time) but maybe I might be able to try to carry a bit more speed in the corners than I was doing. :o

On the other hand, this was only my 3rd full day at CMP. And I was trying to stay on the pavement as much as possible. :)

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/V8BaGMDE6AUrei5RtGcfrFQqs2nwFPvUoapOXv_LfW0=w1237-h621-no

2TH PWR
07-25-2015, 10:28 PM
barrys T1 Miata on it's way to a 2:05 and change.
Nothing really to superimpose. But it consistently pulls 1.25 to 1.3 Gs as is characteristic of RS3s. All the data I've seen this year basically proves the RS3 is completely obsolete as a street class tire now. It's AD08R or RE71R or go home. Ad08R and RE71R are faster than NT01 and RS3 by a fair margin.

2TH PWR
07-25-2015, 10:39 PM
This is Naresh's unknown class car at Calabogie.

0.15 G improvement in grip and some more aggressive driving net a 5 second improvement. Maybe he can explain more.

Saj5DJ
07-25-2015, 11:28 PM
barrys T1 Miata on it's way to a 2:05 and change.
Nothing really to superimpose. But it consistently pulls 1.25 to 1.3 Gs as is characteristic of RS3s. All the data I've seen this year basically proves the RS3 is completely obsolete as a street class tire now. It's AD08R or RE71R or go home. Ad08R and RE71R are faster than NT01 and RS3 by a fair margin.


That's on stock suspension mind you.

Can also add Rival-S's to the "or go home" list. Forget what you knew about the original Rival, these things are unreal.

Greg Campbell
07-26-2015, 10:34 AM
All the data I've seen this year basically proves the RS3 is completely obsolete as a street class tire now. It's AD08R or RE71R or go home. Ad08R and RE71R are faster than NT01 and RS3 by a fair margin.

Not sure if I 100% agree with that. From direct experience with the RS3s and the AD08Rs I can say that the 08Rs are not a faster tire, but they are a more consistent tire allowing you to get more chances for faster runs throughout the heat and it maintains its grip level throughout its life. An RS3 is fastest its first day and then steadily loses grip throughout its life. Right out of the box an RS3 is probably a faster tire but few people have the resources to be throwng sticker street tires at their whip every weekend.

The NT01 is a different animal altogether. Yes it's old technology but as an R comp, it's going to be much better at dealing with heat and could be a suitable sprint race tire (whereas even the best street tire couldn't deal with 10+ laps all out. The NT01 will also be fast right to the cords (if managed properly). I've seen lots of people switch to NT01s for lapping and are dissapointed that the tire isn't measurably faster than their RS3s, the fastest single lap may not be that much quicker but they can consistently lap at that new pace all day long.

I still think that the biggest determining factor in tire performance is the driver and how well the tire 'fits' within their set up. A well balanced, good camber curve car, driven well can still be right at the top of the charts on RS3s, because the driver will have the experience to knock out the fast lap on the first run. A heavier, camber and wheel width challenged car might be better on the AD08r because it's stiff sidewalls are more tolerant and the run to run consistency allows you to make a mistake without throwing it all away. That's why I like the 08Rs, they forgive my mistakes without causing me to lose my run/let me gather it up and are still fast for the next run.

While I don't have any experience with them, the 'Internets are suggesting that the RE71 and Rival S are blisteringly fast, but wear quickly and may not be able to handle the heat of lapping/time attack. Obviously that will be dependant on the car and driver. I would love to see someone run time attack practice lapping in the morning on Rivals and then switching to the Rival S for the afternoon; I think it could work. I'm also extremely tempted to run RE71s next year and just know that I can't hot lap repeatedly and that I would need to get the clean run in in the first of three. Gives me something to ponder.

2TH PWR
07-26-2015, 02:46 PM
Not sure if I 100% agree with that. From direct experience with the RS3s and the AD08Rs I can say that the 08Rs are not a faster tire, but they are a more consistent tire allowing you to get more chances for faster runs throughout the heat and it maintains its grip level throughout its life. An RS3 is fastest its first day and then steadily loses grip throughout its life. Right out of the box an RS3 is probably a faster tire but few people have the resources to be throwng sticker street tires at their whip every weekend.

The NT01 is a different animal altogether. Yes it's old technology but as an R comp, it's going to be much better at dealing with heat and could be a suitable sprint race tire (whereas even the best street tire couldn't deal with 10+ laps all out. The NT01 will also be fast right to the cords (if managed properly). I've seen lots of people switch to NT01s for lapping and are dissapointed that the tire isn't measurably faster than their RS3s, the fastest single lap may not be that much quicker but they can consistently lap at that new pace all day long.

I still think that the biggest determining factor in tire performance is the driver and how well the tire 'fits' within their set up. A well balanced, good camber curve car, driven well can still be right at the top of the charts on RS3s, because the driver will have the experience to knock out the fast lap on the first run. A heavier, camber and wheel width challenged car might be better on the AD08r because it's stiff sidewalls are more tolerant and the run to run consistency allows you to make a mistake without throwing it all away. That's why I like the 08Rs, they forgive my mistakes without causing me to lose my run/let me gather it up and are still fast for the next run.

While I don't have any experience with them, the 'Internets are suggesting that the RE71 and Rival S are blisteringly fast, but wear quickly and may not be able to handle the heat of lapping/time attack. Obviously that will be dependant on the car and driver. I would love to see someone run time attack practice lapping in the morning on Rivals and then switching to the Rival S for the afternoon; I think it could work. I'm also extremely tempted to run RE71s next year and just know that I can't hot lap repeatedly and that I would need to get the clean run in in the first of three. Gives me something to ponder.

peak G from the AD08R are higher than I've ever seen from RS3.
wrt to re71r many cscs drivers have switched from RS3 to RE71R and have taken more than a second off their tmp lap times in one day.

Just putting it out there for peoples consideration.

Dave Barker
07-27-2015, 09:25 AM
Being the chicken that I am, it usually takes me until my third lap to set my fastest time. (Ain't never goin' to do well at the shoot out :( )This absolutely does not work with RS3s and kind of works with the regular Rivals.

It works very well with R comps but other than potentially the TDs, there aren't any R comps out there (at present) that justify the 5 PIPs as 1 hot lap with an RS3, Rival S or Bridgestone RE-71 can match or beat an 888 or Nitto NT 01 even if only for 1 lap. Remember that RE-71s and Rival S's are designed as Autocross tires.

I agree, that the newer street tires would not make good regional race tires.

BTW, my Michelin PSSs are consistent and withstand overheating quite well. Unfortunately the data logger and times indicate they can't beat a basic Rival in basic grip. Likely a great choice for Chump Car.

Saj5DJ
07-27-2015, 11:03 AM
I still think that the biggest determining factor in tire performance is the driver and how well the tire 'fits' within their set up.

Think this is a key statement here. The tires available require different setups to be at their best.

Strapping on a set of Yok vs 'kooks and going faster only means that the Yoks are faster on your car and setup.

Also, the "RE-71R's and Rival-S's are autocross only tires" statement is proving out to be incorrect. Multiple tests out there now showing them to be just as much of improvement on track for multiple laps as they are at autocross and, while they can't be banged on for ten laps with no performance loss, they're not any worse than any other street available at this time. Certainly much better in terms of heat management that the ZII, R1R or 615K for example.

Edit:

Test case in point: 2,800lb Civic with only 205/50/15's, Central Texas in July, 1 warm up with 3 hot and 1 cool down. No drop off in times on the laps on either tire. Check Your July issues of GRM :)

ScotcH
07-27-2015, 01:10 PM
From the original post:

mgardner.dds@gmail.com

Ok, sent.

John P
07-27-2015, 02:52 PM
Think this is a key statement here. The tires available require different setups to be at their best.

Strapping on a set of Yok vs 'kooks and going faster only means that the Yoks are faster on your car and setup.

Also, the "RE-71R's and Rival-S's are autocross only tires" statement is proving out to be incorrect. Multiple tests out there now showing them to be just as much of improvement on track for multiple laps as they are at autocross and, while they can't be banged on for ten laps with no performance loss, they're not any worse than any other street available at this time. Certainly much better in terms of heat management that the ZII, R1R or 615K for example.

Edit:

Test case in point: 2,800lb Civic with only 205/50/15's, Central Texas in July, 1 warm up with 3 hot and 1 cool down. No drop off in times on the laps on either tire. Check Your July issues of GRM :)


On my 2850 lb S2000, fairly new 08Rs (10 lapping sessions) are slower than season old RS3s. During lapping or competition runs at MIR, neither tire overheated (lack of torque?).

JohnP

wparsons
07-27-2015, 02:56 PM
On my 2850 lb S2000, fairly new 08Rs (10 lapping sessions) are slower than season old RS3s. During lapping or competition runs at MIR, neither tire overheated (lack of torque?).

JohnP

I think it'll be interesting to see how my car likes the AD08R's compared to the RS3's. Your S2000 has much better front suspension geometry, which works better with the softer RS3 sidewall than my camber challenged mac strut fronts. In theory the AD08R's will work better, but theory isn't nearly perfect.

Dave Barker
07-29-2015, 11:11 PM
Also, the "RE-71R's and Rival-S's are autocross only tires" statement is proving out to be incorrect. Multiple tests out there now showing them to be just as much of improvement on track for multiple laps as they are at autocross and, while they can't be banged on for ten laps with no performance loss, they're not any worse than any other street available at this time. Certainly much better in terms of heat management that the ZII, R1R or 615K for example.

Edit:

Test case in point: 2,800lb Civic with only 205/50/15's, Central Texas in July, 1 warm up with 3 hot and 1 cool down. No drop off in times on the laps on either tire. Check Your July issues of GRM :)

Barry, the same article on the previous page in reference to the RE-71R states " However, the magic doesn't last long. By the third lap the tire's performance started to suffer...."

Remember this is on a very light weight car i.e sub 2000 lb. Even the magazine's choice of a "Heavy" car is still vastly lighter that any BMW, Mustang, Chevy or Porsche that competes in Time-Attack that is street driven.

Saj5DJ
07-30-2015, 12:05 AM
Was more talking the Rival-S's which were noted to not gain laptime at all on the 2,800lb fwd car with McStruts.

Seems "LeChump" entrants are running the stones now for 24 hour races too.

schmoo-msm
08-03-2015, 09:01 AM
Naresh's Mazdaspeed Miata vs. my '97 Miata. (Thanks for the data, Naresh. Much appreciated!)

I can't match the MSM's acceleration on the straights (had the throttle mashed to the carpet much of the time) but maybe I might be able to try to carry a bit more speed in the corners than I was doing. :o

On the other hand, this was only my 3rd full day at CMP. And I was trying to stay on the pavement as much as possible. :)

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/V8BaGMDE6AUrei5RtGcfrFQqs2nwFPvUoapOXv_LfW0=w1237-h621-no

These were quite well worn RS3 v1 and the car is an SGT3 car,

schmoo-msm
08-03-2015, 09:05 AM
This is Naresh's unknown class car at Calabogie.

0.15 G improvement in grip and some more aggressive driving net a 5 second improvement. Maybe he can explain more.

Now we're on Hankook Z214 C51 that had already had 2 days of hard use on them.

It was cool and sunny, so turbo was making good power and tires were gripping.

It was my first time at CMP on these tires and I'm sure I could gone another second faster had there been more time.

With these tires car is in SGT1, I think.

2TH PWR
08-04-2015, 10:39 AM
will post some more when more data comes in. I have a little CMP to post. Please send more.

Greg Campbell
08-04-2015, 06:39 PM
will post some more when more data comes in. I have a little CMP to post. Please send more.

Sent you mine, let me know if it's the right file.

2TH PWR
08-05-2015, 08:59 AM
received. I will have to look at it when I get home.

2TH PWR
08-09-2015, 04:36 PM
Arek's BMW 330 Touring Car. (red speed, purple G)
2000 BMW 330i touring car, fully stripped, caged
3.0L M54 engine, fully built, around 280 rwhp, 275 rwtq
Race weight is 2850 with driver
68” Wing and 3” splitter
245/40/17 Conti scrubs on 17x9 wheels
PF01 brake pads in Brembo calipers
vs

Greg Campbells SGT3 C6. Unknown mods. 366- 390 whp? (internets)(Green speed, yellow G)

2TH PWR
08-09-2015, 04:40 PM
TMP.
Mike's SGT1 350Z (Green) vs anonymous car (red). w/ ~500 whp
anonymous car is similarly modified but also ~ 150lbs lighter.

2TH PWR
08-12-2015, 08:59 PM
Calling for shannonville Pro and long data.

I'd like to see some SGT and Mod cars

2TH PWR
08-23-2015, 11:52 PM
Moses Wang STI SGT2 red, vs Greg Campbell C6 Corvette SGT3 green.

These cars generate the same grip. At low speed the Sti can match the Corvette in terms of acceleration, but as I've seen many times the Subarus seem to fall flat on their faces up high. Moses also seems to over slow for some corners.

There was a noticeable loss in grip in Gregs car compared to other tracks.
My data is really hard to work with and I've sent it to Moses to see if he can do anything with it, but my lateral grip was way down as well.

2TH PWR
08-24-2015, 12:03 AM
Gardner SGT1 350Z Green vs Campbell SGT3 C6 Corvette Red

The Z's engine is obviously fixed vs MIR where Campbell's Vette was able to pull away easily. The Corvette still has a slight power/ weight advantage. Both cars are way below their normal grip levels. But the Z rides it's grip advantage and some more aggressive lines to a big lead in raw time.

2TH PWR
08-26-2015, 01:09 AM
Lots of gawkers, not a lot of sharers or commenters.
While most of my Pro data was corrupted by signal drop out on one lap, I was able to salvage this lap from practice.

Blue SGT1 Gardner 1:12.2 vs Orange SGT3 Campbell 1:15.4

This is just practice and I had my old tires on, but where is the grip on both cars? The track was just ridiculously slippery.

dubya_rx
08-26-2015, 02:01 AM
Lots of gawkers, not a lot of sharers or commenters.


Shamed me into sharing...
Walter red 78.59sec
Stephen blue 79.77sec
Shannonville Pro

First time Stephen driving my car (Subaru STI).
Two different approaches to turns 1 and 2 but generate same result. Looks like Stephen (blue) missed a shift before turn 3. Stephen has "peakier" G's around turn 4 and the hairpin (5). I brake later after the straight (thanks for the brake tap suggestion!) and carry more speed through the following sections. Stephen starts to make some time back on the final turn.

dubya_rx
08-26-2015, 03:13 PM
Even better... video comparison of the laps.

Walter top video
Stephen bottom video

Video synced at start line and again down back straight.

https://youtu.be/qWGFHX4lMAI

2TH PWR
08-26-2015, 05:07 PM
I also made a side by side video with a friends crazy s2000.

nearly identical laps. I'm 0.2 faster due to a small mistake in the last corner by the S2k.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkeA25q-Nho

Kart14
08-26-2015, 06:47 PM
The refreshed motor seems to be doing well. I'm only getting 183 kph at the end of the straight so 192 kph is solid. We are doing about the same lap times so it's interesting to see the differences between grip and power. I certainly look forward to combining grip and power soon.

PM me your data file and I'll do an overlay. Maybe I can learn something from Canada's 2nd fastest 350z.:rolleyes:


Lots of gawkers, not a lot of sharers or commenters.
While most of my Pro data was corrupted by signal drop out on one lap, I was able to salvage this lap from practice.

Blue SGT1 Gardner 1:12.2 vs Orange SGT3 Campbell 1:15.4

This is just practice and I had my old tires on, but where is the grip on both cars? The track was just ridiculously slippery.

Carguy
08-27-2015, 12:03 AM
Lots of gawkers, not a lot of sharers or commenters.

Although I'm pretty savvy with a computer, extracting the data and massaging it in the AIM software, let alone extracting videos and synchronizing/overlaying them with the data, is just too time consuming. Then there is interpreting the data and overlaying other competitors' data. Sure it's great to see what others are doing and how it shows up in the graphs and numbers, but damn the AIM software and video editors are all pretty arcane! Truth be told what little gawking I've done here gives me a headache anyway, especially after a day's work. So unfortunately no comments from me, and I really don't have much incentive to extract the data from my lap timer and the camera that I forget to turn on more often than I do.

2TH PWR
08-27-2015, 09:02 AM
The refreshed motor seems to be doing well. I'm only getting 183 kph at the end of the straight so 192 kph is solid. We are doing about the same lap times so it's interesting to see the differences between grip and power. I certainly look forward to combining grip and power soon.

PM me your data file and I'll do an overlay. Maybe I can learn something from Canada's 2nd fastest 350z.:rolleyes:

Yours is the first fastest? :D

And the engine is back again after I did some damage due to overheating at MIR.

I don't have any pro track data from my timed runs. it was corrupted by a signal drop out on one of the laps.

It was very hard just to get that one lap out of practice.

2TH PWR
09-01-2015, 09:24 AM
an example of Gardner SGT1 vs Campbell SGT3.

Gardner blue, Campbell Orange. Modified track.

2TH PWR
09-01-2015, 10:03 AM
GBR TECH. CW

Campbell Orange, Gardner Blue.

Gwoody27
09-01-2015, 12:56 PM
Here is some RX-8 data for GBR-TECH-CW. I am a full 25 kph slower on the straight.

Gwoody27
09-01-2015, 12:59 PM
Here is the RX-8 on the Modified track.

IWannaGoFast
09-01-2015, 11:51 PM
Here's my best from Sunday

2TH PWR
09-08-2015, 12:12 AM
GBR TECH CW. No loop.

Red SGT1 Gardner
Blue SGT2 Fung
Yellow SGT3 Campbell.

2TH PWR
09-08-2015, 12:27 AM
Gardner SGT1 (red) onboard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jZmMzkxXYE

2TH PWR
09-15-2015, 10:10 PM
Finally 2 cars in the same class.
An SGT2 battle, and it shows as power and grip seem about the same.

Fung Red Porsche GTS vs Barker Blue Corvette.

When Dave gets the car straight it has a straightline speed advantage over the Porsche GTS (LS motors seem to dominate the straights).

They have very different approaches to the corners in general it seems as each chooses to throw away different parts of the track to try and gain an advantage in another section.

Dave would have been closer than the 8 tenths he ended up behind but a missed shift cost him about 2 tenths of a second on the straight itself. Braking much earlier into the carousel turn cost Dave more time as well.

Dave Barker
09-16-2015, 12:47 AM
Yup, missing a shift on the last lap (or any lap for that matter) is unlikely to produce the best lap time.

I find that the AiM data logger tends to overestimate lateral G's in situations where the rear comes around quickly such as the hairpin on the Fabi straight. I couldn't get more than 1.1 G's in the carousel or bouncing off the curbing on the Left hand kink on to the front straight.

scorcherjf
09-16-2015, 01:11 AM
Wow, that looks pretty close! With some small line changes, braking a bit later on the straight, and not missing that shift you probably would've had me. Vette is definitely faster on the straights (better power/weight and PSS not as much rolling resistance as NT01 probably) yet those PSS seem to grip just as well as the NT01 in the corners. Definitely dumping my NT01's for Cup 2's next year!

Dave Barker
09-20-2015, 10:28 PM
Wow, that looks pretty close! With some small line changes, braking a bit later on the straight, and not missing that shift you probably would've had me. Vette is definitely faster on the straights (better power/weight and PSS not as much rolling resistance as NT01 probably) yet those PSS seem to grip just as well as the NT01 in the corners. Definitely dumping my NT01's for Cup 2's next year!

Interesting look after my last day at MIR lapping with the Ontario 1500. The 4 year old Nittos still grip way better than the PSS and better than last years Rivals (at least on my car) although the rolling resistance is still way up. The Nitto NT01 used to be just a different tread pattern for a Toyo RA-1. James, wonder if it is changed to an R888 compound/carcass now.

OTOH Sport Cup 2s do indeed look interesting.

scorcherjf
09-21-2015, 11:28 PM
Interesting look after my last day at MIR lapping with the Ontario 1500. The 4 year old Nittos still grip way better than the PSS and better than last years Rivals (at least on my car) although the rolling resistance is still way up. The Nitto NT01 used to be just a different tread pattern for a Toyo RA-1. James, wonder if it is changed to an R888 compound/carcass now.

OTOH Sport Cup 2s do indeed look interesting.
I think NT01's have been the same compound as R888's for a while now just with a different tread pattern. I've used R888's before and the grip levels are virtually identical. Both would grip better than the PSS I would think but I'm not sure about 4 year old NT01's... amazing that they still grip so well after so long. Your car has a more favorable suspension (wishbones up front) and more "tire width to weight" ratio I believe so I'm not surprised that you can generate similar lateral G's on PSS as me on NT01's. My alignment was also not optimal at all which I've just corrected with some front camber plates.

In terms of rolling resistance, though, are your NT01's wider than your PSS?

Dave Barker
09-22-2015, 08:19 AM
I think NT01's have been the same compound as R888's for a while now just with a different tread pattern. I've used R888's before and the grip levels are virtually identical. Both would grip better than the PSS I would think but I'm not sure about 4 year old NT01's... amazing that they still grip so well after so long. Your car has a more favorable suspension (wishbones up front) and more "tire width to weight" ratio I believe so I'm not surprised that you can generate similar lateral G's on PSS as me on NT01's. My alignment was also not optimal at all which I've just corrected with some front camber plates.

In terms of rolling resistance, though, are your NT01's wider than your PSS?

Used to be that the Nt01s were the same as the RA 1. Maybe mine are.

Interestingly the 295 Michelins are the same width as the 315 Nittos but the Michelins have a ton of void so the actual rubber on the road is significant less. The sport cup 2s have much less void.

2TH PWR
10-10-2015, 12:12 AM
Sorry I didn't post for so long Dave.

Shannonville Pro.

Dave Barker SGT2 Corvette Red 1:15.2 vs.
Mike Gardner SGT1 350Z Blue. 1:12.2

Both of these times are from Practice. My best lap of the day was about 7/10ths of a second faster than this, but it was affected by data drop out. This is Dave's best lap of the day. Maybe the cooler air and track were helpful.

In practice I was on last season's set of Hankook TDs. Dave is on Michelin PSS I believe. Part of my improvement in the afternoon would have been from switching to a newer set of tires.

In the morning the cars are similar in acceleration and peak lateral grip. (SGT2 vs SGT1)
1.19 G in one direction and 1.28 vs 1.35 G in the other direction with a slight advantage for Gardner. (0.07 G)

Once again Corvettes show a top end advantage, part of this may be aero drag on the Z.

Dave Barker
10-10-2015, 09:15 AM
I think the peak G's measure with an AiM data recorder are not all that accurate. At SMP the best cornering always appears to be in the slowest corners (best Right lateral at the Fabi hairpin and best Left lateral at the left hander just before the right hand sweeper on to the front Nelson straight).

I think the data logger is picking up the fact that the car is oversteering which appears to make at least part of the corner quicker than it actually is.

Steady state cornering such as turns 1 and 2 show significantly lower peaks.

Similar results with turns 1 and 3 at MIR where the longer corners don't produce anything like the peak G's measured in shorter slower speed corners.

Mike, think of what your straight line speed would be without that honkin' big wing.

2TH PWR
10-11-2015, 04:26 PM
I think they are accurate. It's simply physically easier on both the car and driver to carry the necessary velocity into and through a sharp corner. My peak G is not always in sharp corners however. As I was learning MIR my peak G was in T8.
I believe it was one of my highest peak numbers of the summer at 1.7 G and 167 kph.

As for the wing, I run with it partially because I believe there would be a net benefit and also just to learn what downforce feels like and can do. I have run the car with and without the win up to about 170 kph there is little difference.

By the same logic, I'll probably run on Hoosiers next year. It might not be the ideal but I will do it to learn what the limits of slicks feel like.





I think the peak G's measure with an AiM data recorder are not all that accurate. At SMP the best cornering always appears to be in the slowest corners (best Right lateral at the Fabi hairpin and best Left lateral at the left hander just before the right hand sweeper on to the front Nelson straight).

I think the data logger is picking up the fact that the car is oversteering which appears to make at least part of the corner quicker than it actually is.

Steady state cornering such as turns 1 and 2 show significantly lower peaks.

Similar results with turns 1 and 3 at MIR where the longer corners don't produce anything like the peak G's measured in shorter slower speed corners.

Mike, think of what your straight line speed would be without that honkin' big wing.

Dave Barker
10-12-2015, 09:35 AM
My peak G is not always in sharp corners however. As I was learning MIR my peak G was in T8.
I believe it was one of my highest peak numbers of the summer at 1.7 G and 167 kph.




Mike, I would have expected your max G's to be in corners where your aero is working i.e turn 8 at MIR and likely turn 4.

OTOH, turn 3 at MIR is pretty steady state for a bit and my peak there is 1.08 with sustained less than that 1.08 on the same lap that I have a 1.48 recorded in 5a which interestingly only occurred on 1 lap. I really think the 1.48 was just picking up the rear end coming around very quickly at the end of the top of the hill. Never had another peak reading like that with either Nitto NT01s (which for me are sig faster) or PSS

Slowpoke
10-12-2015, 10:00 AM
I think they are accurate. It's simply physically easier on both the car and driver to carry the necessary velocity into and through a sharp corner.

I agree. The other aspect of higher speed corners is that you often have to maintain throttle to maintain speed, whereas spikes in slow turns can be at transition of forward weight transfer into maximum lateral. Then you're back to the whole friction circle aspect; that a tire can use 100% of it's grip to accelerate, or 100% to turn. It can't do both at once.

Plus, your aerodynamics change between acceleration (squat) and deceleration (dive). I don't have an AIM, but I find that I'm rather consistent with my G's in low and high speed corners when compared to other samples. 1.7G's... sounds like your aero was working in Turn 8!