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davedarrow
07-29-2015, 05:08 PM
So I haven't sat in a race car for 3 years now and from what I've seen racing is not going to be around much longer if something doesn't change fast.

A couple reasons?

Cost to race

I am going racing because my friends will be racing-oh they don't race anymore so I have no reason to go

Groundhog day-there are more places to race other than Mosport

Average age of racers in Ontario-look around in the pits, lots of grey hair, and a few young people

And when was the last time any club did something fun at a race weekend?

What you say?

Easy-at Mosport lunchtime have any racer that wants to come out of pit in and meet at the top of the back straight

Yes, soapbox derby to 5C

I'd be there every lunch to see how my car does as a gravity racer

I could go on but...I don't race anymore

Ronnie V
07-29-2015, 05:40 PM
I know for me this season was going to be tough just due to financial reasons.

So I took a HUGE amount of work to try to make some money to go racing. Then I made some money and had no time to race because of all the jobs I took.

To truly "go racing" I think independent wealth is a prerequisite. Even on a "great" year I still can't afford to do more than a few events.

A long time ago I considered myself a part of the middle class. We worked a lot and made money doing it. Now I work more and when the dust settles there is never any money leftover. Margins for the work I do are non existent in the last couple years.

I wish I had a solution...........working more is not working. ;)

Ron

Shark
07-29-2015, 07:36 PM
Things go in cycles.Some years are a bit thinner than others. It'll pick up. I just got back from CTMP today. Instructing for Ferrari North America. In past years there was 30-40 cars. Half that today. Most of those guys wouldn't be too concerned about money. Cost is a factor but not the only factor.

All the negative crap on the forums all summer certainly doesn't help. If I was new and looking at that, it could potentially scare me away.

Just my opinion.

rburgess
07-29-2015, 07:49 PM
What happened to road racing?

It's better then ever, we are going to have 17 Radical's on the grid this weekend!

shaker351
07-29-2015, 07:58 PM
I agree the cost of racing is too much for a lot of people and I don't believe entry fees have anything to do with it.Tires,fuel,transportation,maintenance,repairs,lodging,food etc.etc.have all gotten very expensive. But that being said,the world is changing and I don't think for the better. Generations of kids who played sports in a league where every body wins and we all get trophies is killing the competitive spirit. Racing used to be about competition and winning.Now it seems to me to be more about lapping and having something to share on social media.The commitment and dedication it takes to race is much greater than most younger racers can even imagine,and some older as well. they want and expect everything to be easy. Like they are playing a video game,when things get hard or go wrong they just want to hit the reset button.The automotive landscape has also hurt our sport as spectators, front wheel drive four cylinder four door cookie cutter grocery getters no matter how fast they might be are not by any stretch of the imagination a pleasure to listen too,jaw dropping gorgeous,or mentally stimulating. And that is what spectators want and without spectators racing will have a hard time surviving.I have had over 25 guests come out to watch us race ranging from 20-55 years of age with backgrounds from bike racing oval racing dirt racing drag racing and even sled racing.They all had the same response if there was a full field of Big V-8 powered rear drive tube chassis cars they would be there every weekend we race.But today the automotive industry is so geared to tuner shit the big cars are becoming a thing of the past and i believe so is racing.If you think i am wrong about the "BIG CARS" being the real deal and the meal ticket all you have to do is look at NASCAR and toyota.As a company toyota can't do shit on their own in any series that pays dividends to be involved with(just look at their epic fail in F-1) and this is why they lied cheated and bought their way into NASCAR Big V-8 cars, big excitement creates a big atmosphere and big returns on the $. A lot of years ago racing of all types seem to cater to the lowest common denominator and continue to do so and thus the state of racing today

DavidSim
07-29-2015, 09:17 PM
>>Big V-8 powered rear drive tube chassis cars<<

In my opinion these cars are the best deal going today in road racing, my car cost less than $ 20K, is easy to work on and fix, and goes like a rocket.

As for the cost of racing, it is what it is, people who really want to race will find a way.

LHZAWD
07-30-2015, 02:22 AM
I spent 21 years with a modified talon in various events from slalom , time attack , which it did well in but trying to road race the thing for 20 minutes or more at CTMP with boost was always problem which led to more parts ,time, money and in the end its demise.
I also decided it was time for a old school V8 now (out soon), but there's always something that seems to come up and hold me back from running more than just a few events .
I'm older now with grey hair, whats left of it. In my heart i'm still ready to go .......just as my kid heads to university with portions of my non existent race fund :(

Paul L

davedarrow
07-30-2015, 10:03 AM
I got my race licence in 1996 and back then the starting grid for GT was 60 cars, The green flag at Mosport was like rush hour on the 401, Libre and open wheel was packed too.

Being a business owner in the industrial area, 10 years ago I could see the world was changing, and not in a a good way, Disposable income was starting to shrink and we all know no one is paying us to go racing on the weekend.

Kids today don't even talk to each other in person , never mind go outside and play. If we put a cellphone on the steering wheel we might get a few to go racing. LOL

I always liked the pure forms of motorsport-any spec series like F-Ford, F-Vee and spec sedan series like GT Challenge and Castrol Touring car-

GT Sprints, I'll never understand that series-build a GT2 or GT3 car and drive slow to win a price in GT5???

Nowhere else in the world does this happen, Do we give Olympic Medals to some one who throws a shot put 70% as far as they could throw it???

I've been to way too many ORO meetings and know how many cars you need at a event to break even and so far this season car counts are 25% to 30% shy of breaking even.

Is there going to be any regional racing next year???

racerguy19
07-30-2015, 10:32 AM
"If you think i am wrong about the "BIG CARS" being the real deal and the meal ticket all you have to do is look at NASCAR "

Hey shaker351, in some ways I agree with you and some I don't. This quote may not be a "cover all" statement being that F1 is small displacement turbo that accelerate, corner and brake on a far superior scale than NASCAR. They also don't have to punt their competitors off the track to win a race.

I do agree very much that the big V8 tube frame race cars & trucks are awesome to watch and hear but not everyone can afford $20k to buy one. I think it's just being able to get out there with what you can afford and push yourself and you car/truck as far as you can.

As someone who has just returned from a 30 year absence from racing, I don't care what I race! I love the competition , the self improvement and the racing family that all of you are.

Let's just work together to figure out a solution so we can race next year.....and the year after.....and so on.

Steve

Steven Scala
07-30-2015, 10:37 AM
I for one welcome our new inline-four, FWD overlords.

:D

sjd
07-30-2015, 12:47 PM
As for the cost of racing, it is what it is, people who really want to race will find a way.

Yup, its called Chump Car or LeMons.

Blaming the "kids" such as those of us under 40 or saying the discussions on the forums are scaring people away, aren't the correct answers.

Things change and can't stay the same forever. I know this is terrifies the older generation but its true. Things evolve and the low cost racing I mentioned above is a product of that evolution.

Chris Lawson
07-30-2015, 01:10 PM
Yup, its called Chump Car or LeMons.

Blaming the "kids" such as those of us under 40 or saying the discussions on the forums are scaring people away, aren't the correct answers.

Things change and can't stay the same forever. I know this is terrifies the older generation but its true. Things evolve and the low cost racing I mentioned above is a product of that evolution.

So, the question is, "how do we evolve in order to survive and thrive?

briansexsmith
07-30-2015, 01:46 PM
Well this post could not be more relevant to me. I am 29 and have a decent income, I have auto-xed and iceraced with CASC-OR for 6 years as well as have done over 30 lapping days. The last two years I have been off racing due to buying a house and building a garage.

I felt like 2016 could be the year I step up to road racing in F1200 (by far the cheapest CASC road racing going). I have the shop and mechanical ability to keep a F1200 running but the cost is keeping me for being 100%.

By the time I buy a
car $8000
safety equipment $2000
Race Licence $800
Entry for 6 events $3000
Gas for race car $100
Tires $800
Engine rebuild $2500
Towing $500

I will have spent $17700 that I need to come up with by the end of the season next year. Some have commented that my #'s are a little high but not by much if they are.

The question I am asking myself is am I going to spend 1/3rd of my income in 2016 to race 6 weekends of the year or am I going to continue lapping, autoxing and look outside of CASC to race.

Is CASC road racing going to be radicals and GT1/2 cars I will never be road racing.

nbrigido
07-30-2015, 01:53 PM
I do not usually post here..just sit back and creep..

But i will have to agree with Robert, open wheel racing has actually grown this year.

F1200 numbers are up
F1600 look good
F2000 are up
Radical are up

But everyone has been promoting the hell out of these series to the public, not just the racers. For the F1200, we joined forces with some of the US guys to drive more cars to the track, offer prizes, and food..(BTW Foods Works). We ahve seen new and old drivers come back.

We need to promote to those that are NOT already racing we need new blood, and if they can't afford a Radical, maybe it is a F1200, or after a year in F1200 the move up to F1600.

It is our job to drive people to the track and get involved and work together. Or else we can just sit back and watch.

shamrock
07-30-2015, 02:45 PM
I spent 21 years with a modified talon in various events from slalom , time attack , which it did well in but trying to road race the thing for 20 minutes or more at CTMP with boost was always problem which led to more parts ,time, money and in the end its demise.
I also decided it was time for a old school V8 now (out soon), but there's always something that seems to come up and hold me back from running more than just a few events .
I'm older now with grey hair, whats left of it. In my heart i'm still ready to go .......just as my kid heads to university with portions of my non existent race fund :(

Paul L

sell it back to me Paul lol. Quite the machine now.

sjd
07-30-2015, 03:18 PM
So, the question is, "how do we evolve in order to survive and thrive?

Excellent question and one I don't know that I have the answer to. A culture change from within that ends the "That's the way its always been done" mentality would be the place to start.

shanehutton
07-30-2015, 04:18 PM
Off the top of my head:

More people
-Some sort of fast track licence that doesn't require people who may be qualified to spend $1000 doing the race school. Ride along and a written test??

More cars
-Some way to maximize the cars that are available by letting more than one driver share a single car and thus the costs associated. This may already be the case but I know that it is a big draw in chump and ice racing so perhaps it needs to be talked about more often.

-Do everything possible to align the CASC car requirements so that all potential cars are legal. (Chump / USA / etc.) Those series have insurance and run a safe series so why would their version of safe also be ok for CASC?

Lower costs
-Have an event every now and then at TMP or Grand Bend where I would assume the track rental fees are much lower

davedarrow
07-30-2015, 04:45 PM
Having 18 Formula Vees is great

Going from 60 GT cars to 25 or less is bad

Going from 25 GT challenge cars to 5 is bad

When you need 120 to 130 cars to break even at a event and you are getting 70 to 80 entries you don't need a calculator to know this season is going to be deep in the red at year end.

I have friends who swore they would never ever race in Chump Car-well they are and loving it.-as said in this thread Chump Car might be the future.

I was told by a friend that it cost him $25,000 to $35,000 a weekend to run a competitive GT1 car with a support crew at the track.-That's a lot of disposable income!

shanehutton
07-30-2015, 04:47 PM
So perhaps a chump style multiple driver enduro could be added to the list of things to consider.

Fubawu
07-30-2015, 04:55 PM
the problem is most guys here would not be too interested in racing at TMP.

In regards to race schools it's hard to fast track much more then we have now.
CASC and BMW both offer schools around the $500-$600 range. Hard to beat that.

I do agree that tech needs to align with others, but all in all the process is not that difficult.

I think money is the biggest factor and with gas prices insurance and mass
inflation coming. It is hard for the avg 25-45yr old to hold a family pay bills
and go and drop $10k-$15k year racing. I think that's why we see 50+ filling the grid

davedarrow
07-30-2015, 05:03 PM
Yup!!

When a tiny condo in downtown Toronto is over $600,000 and a small house is $1,000,000 in Toronto, cheap thrills are all most people can afford and road racing is anything but cheap.

shanehutton
07-30-2015, 05:17 PM
Based on the numbers it would seem that nobody here is interested in running the current events either. That is the point of looking at other options. Maybe it's not TMP but it definitely isn't the status quo.

Last I checked, the school was about $800 + towing, fuel, tires, time. If somebody already knows the flag rules, has race experience and can drive in traffic, $1000+ seems like a waste of money that could be going into entry fees. Why not get those people racing ASAP.

What was the last rule that popped up recently? Something about window clips? Rain lights on sunny days? The rule set should be as basic as possible and nobody should be looking to make new / more rules unless the insurance or the ASN / FIA requires it. Rules limit entries and drive up costs. They should be there to keep everybody safe but not be somebody or a group of peoples pet project. Standardize and save all that trouble. Could we not run the exact rules from one of the larger and more successful groups?

Money is the easiest excuse to point to. It's the one nobody can fix and nothing CASC does can help. However, I am calling BS on it cause people are racing cars, just not with CASC and people are spending money in other hobbies. The issue is that other racing is more appealing for some reason and / or other hobbies are more important. Chump car, CSCS, and a number of other options are getting the customers because something about their product is drawing them in. Obviously, it would be amazing if everything was cheaper but that isn't in our control so what needs to be on the table is EVERYTHING else.

People vote with their money and right now they are spending it elsewhere.

davedarrow
07-30-2015, 05:23 PM
This problem isn't just limited to CASC, all forms of motorsport are hurting real bad here and in the US of A

I have some big time race teams in the US buying parts from me and they told me it's real bad there too.

The world is changing and any hobby based on disposable income is fluff

Steven Scala
07-30-2015, 05:24 PM
That, and the simulators have become so good that the youth don't see much benefit in spending so much to do the real thing.

I for one went from reading about car races to obsessing about actually driving in them after a couple $20 ride-alongs on a Children's Wish day as a teen. Of course the sims weren't as good then, but the loads, the smells, and the elevations were all elements that home simulators can't convey. After that first descent into Mosport's blind T4 I was inexorably hooked, and the whole experience cost me under $50.

Beyond that, Nissan's got the right approach in co-opting the gaming generation. If we can combine some elements of their methods with a low/no-cost means of exposing the kids to actual g-loads and actual elevations, then we might snag their interest.

sjd
07-30-2015, 05:57 PM
Chump car, CSCS, and a number of other options are getting the customers because something about their product is drawing them in. Obviously, it would be amazing if everything was cheaper but that isn't in our control so what needs to be on the table is EVERYTHING else.

People vote with their money and right now they are spending it elsewhere.

This.

Actually, I'd argue that Chump Car is cheaper than CSCS Time Attack. :p

nbrigido
07-30-2015, 06:12 PM
I will come straight out and ask...

How many people actually know that CASC exists and that you can come out and race?

How many people know that there are Regional Race weekends at any of the Tracks? Aside of the DAC event which Jason really promoted.

Now one is going to join if they have no idea there is a place to join? or a place to race, or regional racing going on...

Racing in not cheap, but neither is playing 30 rounds of gold at a good course. It's our sport and we need to tell other they can do it to..Look at the increase in Radicals...they are not F1200 price range but growing...

Also realize ,that most of today's youth has no idea what a spark plug is... For open wheel i would say 90% of F1200 drivers wrench their own cars, 40% for F1600 less and less as you move up the food chain. So the costs of racing are going to be more for a "team" to do it.

Cost control via "Spec" equipment is great and has worked, especially in a series like ours. 1 set of tires 3 seasons......:):)

Entry fee are what they are and unless we start seeing 150-200 cars at the track there is no way we could ever see them come down, only go up.

So to end my rant, unless we are out there promoting what we do, where we do it, and how we do it...no were to go...

TheJuggernaut
07-30-2015, 06:57 PM
Maybe I can add a useful perspective. Well, maybe not but here it is anyway. I've been interested in racing all my life and have been around the racetracks since 2000. I always wanted to try racing and last year I did, building a very competitive swapped E30 Chumpcar with friends. Practice proved that it's not for me. I can give my reasons but they do not include me being bad at it - by then I had enough experience, awareness and skill on track to judge and position my car in a way that would set up a pass or make one on me impossible. Bottom line is I didn't enjoy that part of it. It ended up being a practical confirmation that time attack is my bag.

So why am I even posting in a road race forum? Because everything leading up to the green flag is the same. So given that, my thoughts are:

-racing isn't for everyone who likes going to the track

-advertising is not the problem, it's a niche hobby which means you could be at the North pole and they will find you (some of my other hobbies include firearms and RC airplanes - go find a gun range or a flying field, or a gun or hobby store, they don't advertise but turn member apps away)

-popularity is a state of mind of the culture at any given time. Like Ray said, it goes in waves, it's a pendulum that swings all over the place and you never know where it's going next. Sometimes all it takes is a cult movie...

-condescending attitudes will hurt you badly. Not the sport overall, just the organization in question. Looking down at tuner crap and kids with cellphones will merely limit your circle to what it is now, which is fine but then no need to be shocked and confused if that's what you end up with. Try to enjoy the company of everyone who likes turning money into noise. I prefer smaller engines making big turbo power with lots of tuner crap but my favorite car at the TMP race was the Galaxie.

-speed is faster and more expensive than ever. I may be off base here since I wasn't active at that time but I feel like the cars from the mid to lower ranks being road raced in the 80s and early-mid 90s were very affordable for a middle class man at that time. Problem is that they're laughably slow now. And while 20 grand might get you a tube frame rocket that needs some work, it's not even the tip of the ice berg of what it will cost to run in the end.

-any way you try to sugar coat it, racing is a contact sport. If the previous point is true, then it will also drive people who can't afford the added risk to find other ways to have fun, which is why I think time attack and the likes of chump are thriving (either compete with no contact or race something you can afford to leave in the garbage can, but in a series where others bring the same thing).

So for what little it's worth, my answer is to stop trying to look for one. Support everyone who does the organizing, by signing up as early as you possibly can, thanking them at every opportunity for what they do and NEVER whining about the event in public - they are your real and only answer. And encourage, support and embrace anyone new, even (or maybe especially?) if they screw up.

DavidSim
07-30-2015, 08:54 PM
If you are not happy with the organization then run for a position next time around and change things, in the meantime bury the hatchet and get out there and race to ensure the long term survival of things in general.

Use it or lose it !!!

wings2k
07-30-2015, 09:08 PM
FYI from a very budget chumper. Chump isn't really that much less expensive, until you count track time.

In a 14 hour race I drove for 3.5 hours. Cost me $1200 for that. Cost the same for my other 3 drivers on the team.

And that's a slow car using up no tires. The top teams are spending more like $3k a weekend per driver (tires brakes and fuel cost more) and the wear and tear on the car.

Chump cars aren't $500. Most of the cars having $20k+ into them. But there is an advantage to splitting the costs.

I've never run a CASC race but keep wanting to, this year car troubles. But I've run other series races and the barriers are easier in those series than they are in CASC (especially tech).

I hope to run Ted Powell if I can secure a car.

Dave Barker
07-31-2015, 09:44 AM
I've been running in Time-Attack for years and many have asked me why I don't "move up" to wheel to wheel racing. As much as it is very tempting, wheel to wheel is a lot more money AND time commitment that I am not prepared to give. (Couldn't afford the divorce anyway).

I totally get the idea that competing wheel to wheel while trying to go as fast as you can is a real thrill but to listen to a number of racers complain about traffic, being blocked, not getting a clear lap,having to compete against a guy with a much bigger budget (" I only lost by 5 seconds but his tires were way fresher" ) indicates to me that wheel to wheel is not always heaven.

The compromise for me is Time-Attack in the summer to get my speed fix and Ice Racing in the winter to have fun going wheel to wheel, where contact occurs but is not devastating. Total cost is way less than road racing yet I have more events during the year.

So, I really think the issue with declining entry IS the money. If I am going to fork out enough for a dedicated car, safety equipment, trailer, tow vehicle and storage for all of the above, I really want to go to every race event I can and that just adds to the cost,(not just entry fees, but tires, brakes, gas etc.)

I would think that some of the round-y-round guys can race for sig less but I have to admit that tracks that are 1/2 mile or less don't particularly interest me.

Saj5DJ
07-31-2015, 10:24 AM
I concur with Dave. Would love to step up to road racing and, all things equal, I would. However, simply can't afford to.

I fit the description of the guy you want: Already a CASC guy, came through autox and time attack, mid thirties etc. Only exception is I know I wouldn't be welcomed by one very squeaky wheel here because I drive one of dem pinko furin cars that done don't even have demselves a V8. But I don't let folks like that put me off.

I do well for a guy that's not self employed, comfortably in the upper 25 percentile range. As a family, we drive around in 7 and 11 year old daily drivers. Our house is modest and, mortgage aside, I have no debt that needs feeding. There's still not enough left to go road racing.

Even if I DID eke it out somehow, I sure wouldn't have enough to hope to make a competitive effort of it. I wouldn't mind being back of the pack due to my driving abilities, but couldn't enjoy being there due to budget.

Long story short: It's not you, it's me.

The idea of Chumpstyle racing is perfect for someone like me, but it seems the model really doesn't control costs at all.

Perhaps an enduro, car sharing style championship coupled with the OTA car classing system would work? I think that classification system does more to control costs than anything else I've seen, you've got it already, it works...Maybe polish it a little to give greater deltas to more expensive mods?

Just an idea.

Mike Canner
07-31-2015, 10:47 AM
Just wondering, based on the theme of $$ required to get to and go on the track, what is the thinking on the Nissan Micra series starting to bubble in Quebec. Cars are not over the top expensive, they are not fast but they may be fun and if you are thinking about racing, close wheel to wheel racing, is this an option that might bring people back to the track? They were a blast to watch in Montreal, just saying....:confused:

davedarrow
07-31-2015, 11:02 AM
Yes the Nissan Micra series is good for racing

Look south of the border at SCCA and the Spec Miata series.

It's super popular and any series that has a spec car is all about driver skill!

I even pondered getting a Spec Micra and having some fun.

TJMotorsport
07-31-2015, 11:13 AM
One thing that drives up the cost of racing is everyone running their own private teams. The cost to add an additional car is not that much higher when you can share resources. But having to purchase a large amount of equipment, tools, etc. can certainly be prohibitive if it's only for one person. Pooling resources can help just as much as splitting an entry for two drivers in two classes.

Speaking of our Radical series, this is certainly not for everyone. Yes, the cost of a brand new car is out of the question for a number of people. However, the cost to get into the game with a used car is not as outrageous as one would expect. We also have a particularly enthusiastic and inviting community of owner's and one of the best groups in regional racing. See for yourself this weekend. We also make every effort to keep the running costs minimized and ensure the bang-for-the-buck return is high. I don't think anyone gets out of a Radical without a smile on their face and there is good reason for it.

One item that a number of people point to is parity and ensuring that you're not spending a large amount of money to ride around at the back of the pack. That is one area where the various "Formula" series have an advantage. Whether it be F1200, F1600, F2000 and Radical Canada Cup we have a set of rules that strive for parity and competitiveness. This also takes the strain out of building a car and constantly adapting to any particular rule set as we provide a product and rules based around it.

This is in no way intended to be a marketing effort for Radical Canada, however it serves to point out that not everything is doom and gloom. In many respects we have attempted to create a "Field of Dreams" for Radical owner's. They say if you build it, they will come and we're seeing that happening more than ever this year.

wings2k
07-31-2015, 02:14 PM
Micra cup is interesting because the car is inexpensive to buy and run. But they still managed to make it a rich man's game. In order to buy a car you must commit to 3 years.

So car is $20k, three seasons of racing estimate is $80-100k running costs and fees.

It's difficult to get guys excited about slow cars though
I'm running a race in August though and should be fun!

abrracing
07-31-2015, 02:17 PM
My perspective:

The market has changed. Some are just starting to accept that and you can see the difference this year by a couple of clubs. Road Racing is still viable as proof of the Radical's and other series that have sprung up. Maybe the OLD way of a whole weekend at Canada's most expensive track isn't the way to go any more? Maybe changing the events to cater to the majority instead of a vocal minority may help? If your up one year and down the next I can accept the cyclical answer, but a steady decrease year over year means if you a business you will soon be broke if you don't change to meet the new market demands. Please don't through the "well get out and volunteer" battle cry because you can volunteer all you want but the company has to realize that the whole structure needs to change and be willing to accept that and try a completely different approach even if it is not to liking of a minority. I have been to race days in the past that had over 200 paid entries. If we lost 50 competitors to create something that would appeal to bring the other 150 back we most certainly would be well ahead of where we are now. Just my opinion, and before you slam it realize that I HAVE done something about it and my results are self explanatory. I would be MORE THAN HAPPY to fold my results with other series to take Road Racing to where it is capable of being.

egroenke
07-31-2015, 02:54 PM
Something I've been observing. The series I see doing better than others are the ones that are marketing themselves and making those who compete all feel like heroes. F1600, F2000, Radical, CSCS, etc. Even the Bay of Quinte GP was marketed more heavily than past regional weekends. While I love all our clubs that put on our weekend events how do they market individual events? Are competitors and spectators just supposed to magically show up? Not knowing how the $$ go around, having clubs running each event may be like spreading the peanut butter too thin in terms of having $$ to market events

Seeing GT Challenge cancelled again is really sad, but to that extent what had been done to attract a healthy entry grid? I was hoping to be running GT Challenge more actively next season since Sprints and brackets isn't my interest any more. I may have to look elsewhere now if Challenge is not around

davedarrow
07-31-2015, 03:07 PM
Yes very sad to see GT Challange disappearing for whatever the reasons are.

I'm sure someone will jump in and explain what happened?

The only GT series in Ontario structured like pro race series everywhere else in the world. It was fun to watch, cars handicapped so driver skill wins the race. :)

abrracing
07-31-2015, 03:20 PM
Something else I will suggest is to stop posting threads of the forum about issues within road racing etc unless they are to put a positive spin and talk about growing road racing.

HowardCohen
07-31-2015, 05:50 PM
I am a BARC member, a volunteer and I sit on the WRRC committee. This past March CASC had a booth at the Autorama Car Show; in past years there was a booth at the Race/Speed Show. We had lots of people stop at the booth and ask about racing, volunteering, becoming a track marshall, etc. The follow-up has not been as good as we hoped but we keep trying. We have been talking to many groups over the years about becoming involved in racing. either as a volunteer or as a racer, depending on their level of interest. We have been in touch with some of the colleges to get new blood into the system. It is a slow process but there is headway.

Personally, I have dropped off complimentary regional race tickets to over 100 new car dealers in southern Ontario while I am making my sales calls. Many of them show interest. Some of them come to the races. Most of them didn't know there were regional races ay CTMP/Mosport (what many of them call it). I am personally working on improving that. This year I have given out about 1000 tickets and sent emails with ticket links to over 300 dealers. The response is fair and growing. Again, it takes time to get new people to the track. All they ever hear about is the big money races like Tudor, IMSA, Nascar, Indy, F1. We just have to keep plugging away :)

If you have any constructive ideas on how to grow our sport, please let us know, Thanks :)


I will come straight out and ask...

How many people actually know that CASC exists and that you can come out and race?

How many people know that there are Regional Race weekends at any of the Tracks? Aside of the DAC event which Jason really promoted.

Now one is going to join if they have no idea there is a place to join? or a place to race, or regional racing going on...

Racing in not cheap, but neither is playing 30 rounds of gold at a good course. It's our sport and we need to tell other they can do it to..Look at the increase in Radicals...they are not F1200 price range but growing...

Also realize ,that most of today's youth has no idea what a spark plug is... For open wheel i would say 90% of F1200 drivers wrench their own cars, 40% for F1600 less and less as you move up the food chain. So the costs of racing are going to be more for a "team" to do it.

Cost control via "Spec" equipment is great and has worked, especially in a series like ours. 1 set of tires 3 seasons......:):)

Entry fee are what they are and unless we start seeing 150-200 cars at the track there is no way we could ever see them come down, only go up.

So to end my rant, unless we are out there promoting what we do, where we do it, and how we do it...no were to go...

ROTARY ROCKET
07-31-2015, 06:01 PM
Dave, Al, Evan, all good points, those on the outside looking in, don't really understand the frustrations that the Challenge Organizing committee faced. The powers to be had every opportunity to make Challenge a great success, the formula was right, the sponsors were there, the rules package was right, ( though would have been tweaked for the better,work in progress) and it attracted strong teams, teams that committed to the series with equipment and resource.

oh by the way, some of us that are posting and talking here, did offer to have a series scrutineer, or volunteer the time for the post, one that is dedicated and understands the build characteristics and performance of the cars that were racing, no! says the powers to be!

The powers to be did everything they could to kill Challenge, seemed ok at the time because sprints entries were strong, but I bet they would have in hind site tried to grow challenge instead of killing it. Or how about that " underground, lapping day, time attack, drifting, show and shine series? The one that sees thousand of young and old car enthusiast at the gates, maybe they should have worked with them to draw people to this great motorsport complex that we have call CTMP?

Al is right, what ever happened, happened, don't need anymore flaming our finger pointing, lets make some positive changes.

Hats off to your series Al, and Radical Canada, the numbers show that change is not always a bad thing.

cheers!

DavidSim
08-01-2015, 12:03 AM
I have a suggestion that I believe would help Road Racing here in Ontario immediately, here goes:

All you racers who have an axe to grind with the CASC and have decided to stay away as such need to think of the bigger picture in the interim and bring your cars out again to support Road Racing in general.

In tandem, when it is time to elect new leaders I suggest you also put your names in the ring and work collectively to make things better for all.

Work to make things better, not bring things down.

nbs2005
08-01-2015, 10:35 AM
The licensing costs tend to run a lot higher than just the school entry . I have a fair amount of ice race and chump like experience and was still told I needed to do a track day before I did license school.

Rules need to be simplified. WRL rule book is just a few pages long. They have pretty full fields. Simpler, more accessible racing is what the marketplace wants.

Posting about how young people don't want to get involved and are more interested in their devices is not helpful.

Run at cheaper tracks.

Chris Lawson
08-01-2015, 11:37 AM
I have posted this a few times in the past......but here it is again....just a few ideas for positive debate.

Chris

For me, and many others time and money are inextricably tied together; I can't afford to pay someone to work on the car, so I do all the maintenance and repairs etc (that I am able to) which takes away from family time and puts time demands in place. After spending hours in the garage it's hard to disappear to the track for 2 or 3 days and not feel like you have neglected your loved ones, no matter how understanding they are. If there was a lottery win in my past, or better business savy in my genes, I could avoid the garage time and 'arrive and drive', but for the time being I am the crew. Stem to stern.

We all entered into this sport knowing it is expensive. I speculate not many of us realized the full cost of our addiction, but we do it because we can and because we want to. There are surely many potential racers, stagnant racers, and dormant race cars in need of a good home, out there waiting to see action. The question is, how do we get them out to the track? The more racers there are the more fun we have and the lower the costs. Here are a few suggestions, and please feel free to flame them or fan them....

1. Welcoming/mentorship program - We are often a welcoming group, but from the outside looking in, a newcomer to the sport can be intimidated on a number of levels. People often think they need TONS of money to get into racing. Although it is not cheap, there are affordable cars that can be run for a reasonable amount of money. In addition, the path of navigating car classes, the safety rules, the logistic of finding the grid (it does move depending on the club), where to park in the paddock etc, all is confusing to a first time racer. If there was a number of racer who could be a point of contact for "wanna be racers" it may help bring new people into the sport. We could have a link on the CASC website "email a racer to talk about getting into the sport". I volunteer to field the emails

2. On the heels of the above suggestion, we cannot be blind to the Import movement and the motorsports based series that have become big business in the past few years. My computer may explode for saying this, but the CSCS series has an unbelievable turn out to their events. The old adage of "sex sells" comes to mine, but at the centre of their "product" is motorsport competition. Their events are anchored with the track but the event is a motorsport spectacle. The question is, can we lure the 20-something car owner into a race car and away from the tire smoking product endorsement wet T-shirt contest, and get them behind the wheel of a race car? What do we need to do to draw them in and show them that they could race a number of seasons for what they have invested in their car? At the center of all of these participants is competition; They want the fastest car, to be the best driver, the best looking car, and the best looking girl. Our series is about being the best you can be with what you can afford, and going as fast as you can. In my opinion, our racing rewards the racer, not the show man. Each and every contestant at the "other events" wants to be the fastest. How to we pull those contestants to our series and convert them to racing competitors from "show" contestants?

I know that Perry and all the staff/volunteers work hard to try and keep us happy. We all know that it is an impossible job. Maybe, just maybe, we need to reach our to our contacts and help CASC bring a bit more flash to our racing weekends? How about a drifting show at 5:00 pm Saturdays through turn one and two, with and afternoon show-n-shine in the lower paddock? Followed by a Saturday evening "bar band" concert on the hill in the lower paddock. Take that Boots n Farts!!!

3. Costs -- Well, it ain't cheap to rent the track, but is there a way to tighten the belt? Maybe we run Fridays and Saturdays? Or Sunday/Mondays......just throwing some "outside the box" ideas out there. Can we partner with the New York SCCA and run joint events? We go to the Glen on a dedicated weekend, and they come to us one weekend? Double the grid, shared track rental costs, and BAM lower entry fees! If fear of the border crossing is an issue I volunteer to contact the border and let them know we are coming and try and ease the process.

4. There are lots of race cars out there. For some reason they are not all coming out. Self examination is better than a post mortem. We are all "the series" and CASC. Each of has a responsibility to promote and grow our sport. Any ideas?

I hope these ideas spur on some debate......and more importantly positive ideas.

Chris

Doug P
08-01-2015, 06:18 PM
Yes very sad to see GT Challange disappearing for whatever the reasons are.

I'm sure someone will jump in and explain what happened?

The only GT series in Ontario structured like pro race series everywhere else in the world. It was fun to watch, cars handicapped so driver skill wins the race. :)

This could not be further from the truth at all. Not sure where you are getting information from.

davedarrow
08-02-2015, 03:08 PM
This could not be further from the truth at all. Not sure where you are getting information from.

A quick history lesson Doug:

In 1995 I went to Mosport to watch some random racirng and I was hooked. a few months later I bought Bill Brack's 1978 March Formula Atlantic car.
It was a true barn find, it was a tub and boxes for parts in a horse barn. There was no internet back then to find parts. the Next spring I went to Bridgestone Race School (a customer of mine) and got my race license.

My first time out at Mosport with the March I was told to grew 4 " shorter or grow a taller roll bar, I sold it and bought my first Mallock in the UK. My first race ever was at the Vintage Festival at Mosport, the car had wings and slicks so I was in the Formula 70's grid, I came in second-I guess all the moto-cross and endure racing and go-kart racing paid off.

Lots of vintage racing and a few formula cars and the writing was on the wall-go race in Libre.

Then I get a call from one of my customers on race committee that VARAC is trying to scoop up Libre and get rid of the fast formula cars.

I called Richard Foegele and he said it's time for us to go to Race and ORO meeting.

We went to every meeting for years, Kept Libre under the CASC umbrella. I bought 7 Formula Mazda school cars and sold them to my friends to help populate the libre grid. I donated thousands of $$ in prizes to Libre for a couple seasons. I did all this just to help keep racing healthy in Ontario.

I was the one who got the ball rolling with Cindy to implement the ID card system for race entry at the track, I was there for every meeting witnessing Richard and Cindy came up with the GT Challenge idea.

I don't recall seeing you at a Race or ORO meeting for the last 10 years.

Please tell me where I was wrong about GT Challenge

P.S. where did your rant go Nick????

wparsons
08-03-2015, 09:49 AM
While I love all our clubs that put on our weekend events how do they market individual events? Are competitors and spectators just supposed to magically show up? Not knowing how the $$ go around, having clubs running each event may be like spreading the peanut butter too thin in terms of having $$ to market events

I've been doing a lot of thinking about how to draw more people to OTA events, and I came to pretty much the same conclusion. I think the series as a whole needs a cohesive marketing strategy. I'm sure somewhere in the competitor pool is someone with enough background to com up with a plan, and another to execute the design portions of it.

My computer may explode for saying this, but the CSCS series has an unbelievable turn out to their events. The old adage of "sex sells" comes to mine, but at the centre of their "product" is motorsport competition. Their events are anchored with the track but the event is a motorsport spectacle. The question is, can we lure the 20-something car owner into a race car and away from the tire smoking product endorsement wet T-shirt contest, and get them behind the wheel of a race car? What do we need to do to draw them in and show them that they could race a number of seasons for what they have invested in their car? At the center of all of these participants is competition; They want the fastest car, to be the best driver, the best looking car, and the best looking girl. Our series is about being the best you can be with what you can afford, and going as fast as you can. In my opinion, our racing rewards the racer, not the show man. Each and every contestant at the "other events" wants to be the fastest. How to we pull those contestants to our series and convert them to racing competitors from "show" contestants?

If you look at the number of show entries/spectators at CSCS compared to actual time attack or drifting entries, the number of competitors is very low. I've tried to get some people I know that are very into spectating out to autoslalom or time attack schools, or even general lapping with instruction available, and have had next to no interest. CSCS does a lot of things right to drive people to their events, but I don't think the vast majority of their audience has any interest in actually competing in any sort of race event.

Even with a pretty enthusiast centric group (FRS/BRZ forums), there is very little follow through for motorsports entries from a pretty huge member base. We've had a steady 12-15 of them coming out to SPDA events this year, but there are hundreds of members in the GTA active on the site that claim to be into performance driving that haven't shown up at all.

DavidSim
08-03-2015, 10:20 AM
>>My computer may explode for saying this, but the CSCS series has an unbelievable turn out to their events. How to we pull those contestants to our series and convert them to racing competitors from "show" contestants?<<

Not sure if this is silly to ask but would it be possible to collaborate with the CSCS, even other applicable race organizations, to run a joint event at CTMP to bring everything together in one venue?

That is all.

Zimm
08-03-2015, 12:17 PM
I was supposed to enter my first race in seven years with my GT4 Honda but broke my hand during the week, so couldn't make it. My wife and I went to spectate on Saturday. We saw:

- Enough GT Sprints cars to have separate GT1/GT2 and GT3/GT4/GT5 races. Each could have used a few more cars but both were good races.
- We saw three TA2 Trans Am Camaros, older Trans Am Camaros, a Merkur, V8 TR7, Corvettes, three race trucks, converted stock cars, BMW's, Nissans, a mini stock, VW's, Hondas, Mazdas, Mustang, Focus, Cobalt, Corrado, Toyota, RX8, and even a Fiat 500. Something for everyone to like!
- A full field of gorgeous Radicals.
- A thirteen car FLibre field that included really cool Formula Renaults, Formula Mazda's, Sports Racers, along with F1600's and F4's.
- Didn't see the F1200's on track, so don't know how many where there.
- 20 car Classic field that included Porsches, BMW, Mustang, Datsun, and a Ferrari 348.
- Where else can you see all of these awesome cars racing - and all for free.
- Saw a number of families with young kids enjoying the cars, and playing various ball games in the fields.

Read this yesterday: "Trans Am releases preliminary 81 car entry list for Mid-Ohio Sports Car course." Entry included 5 Ontario drivers.

Did you see the Pirelli World Challenge races at CTMP? Cadillac, Bentley, McLaren, Audi, Porsche, Ferrari, Mercedes, Aston Martin, Viper, BMW. And that was just the big class. Lots more variety in the smaller classes.

What happened to road racing? Lots of good news - lets focus on the positive.

For CASC, I agree we need more marketing from all involved. Younger folks are amazing at understanding, and utilizing, social media. Look at the excellent job that Jason's group did with the Bay of Quinte Grand Prix. I'll definitely be at Shannonville next year!

We need more weekends to be 'events' such as the DAC Shannonville event. Back in 1990, I found $12,000 in sponsorship to run the Honda/Michelin Series - because we raced at weekends that were 'events'. If I could find that much sponsorship today, I could run most weekends.

This won't be popular, but the "pro series" should be invited to join some weekends. That would help create an 'event' atmosphere. Since not all race groups run each weekend, this would help add entries.

Back in the 90's, the Honda/Michelin, Player's GM, and F2000 series raced at a few weekends - although regional competitors did complain about their track time being used. Many of us used the spring BEMC race to prep for the Victoria Day weekend. Lots of additional entries. It would also help prospective racers interested in the 'pro' CTCC, F1600, F2000 etc, series to understand how they can get there - through the regional series.

Paul Tracey, Scott Maxwell, more recently Connor Daly, and many others started in Regionals.

Dunno, I see lots of positive take-aways from this past weekend ... other than my broken hand.

Zimm

DavidSim
08-03-2015, 01:00 PM
>>Enough GT Sprints cars to have separate GT1/GT2 and GT3/GT4/GT5 races<<

Great post Zimm.

I was delighted that the field got split, hoping it happens more in the future.

Get that hand healed up Zimm and get the heck out on the track pronto; and all you holdouts with an axe to grind get your butts out too.

Mike Canner
08-03-2015, 01:58 PM
>>Enough GT Sprints cars to have separate GT1/GT2 and GT3/GT4/GT5 races<<

Great post Zimm.

I was delighted that the field got split, hoping it happens more in the future.

Get that hand healed up Zimm and get the heck out on the track pronto; and all you holdouts with an axe to grind get your butts out too.

Says the man who got to play up front and keep the Marshal radios going with calling lead changes multiple times a lap. Great show by all this weekend!

DavidSim
08-03-2015, 02:41 PM
Thank you for the kind words Mike, I got to race with a lot of super drivers for the first time and I appreciate their help and accommodation as I learn the ropes.

The drivers I got to race with that impressed me the most were Ali Nasirpour (great driver, great car), Dylan Gibson (gosh can he ever make that car go), and Demitria Chalkias (such a fine young driver).

I look forward to more racing in the future in GT Sprints.

racerguy19
08-03-2015, 03:23 PM
I have to chime in about cost of a race car and let you think about it. I purchased a 2001 Ford Focus for $800 and with every thing in from cage to nomex socks, my cost is less than $5000. So I'm not sure where the problem of cost is. Yes, I did a lot of work myself and bought used things from the forum. The. Bottom line is I AM RACING! Is it the fastest car in GT5? Hell no, I get lapped by other GT5's, but I had a blast this past BARC weekend and will continue to improve both my car and my lap times as I go. For me racing is a long term commitment with steady improvement.
I have a home, 2 daughters in University and other commitments but have wanted to race for the last 30 years.
So maybe cost isn't the problem?

Steve
#54 GT 5

davedarrow
08-03-2015, 03:39 PM
Hey Steve for sure costs are just one factor, I've talked to some of my very rich friends that no longer race and as I've said earlier in this forum:

raced for many years and have other interests-life is short and racing isn't the only thing we can do on the weekend-

the friends that used to show up at the track aren't racing anymore so 1/2 the reason we go to the track are gone

when you go racing at Mosport 5 or 6 times a season for 10 to 20 years, well you get to the point where you have nothing to prove anymore and the cottage starts looking real good, the sailboat or cruiser is calling you or the motorcycle wants to go for a tour thru the countryside.

Me personally-my bussiness got soo busy I just didn't have it in me anymore to put in 10 to 20 hours of prep time for 90 minutes of fun at the track,

Sold all my cars-got great money for them thanks to the USD.

I went to Mosport 2 times this season just to make sure I was done with racing-That's when I saw that the entires were a fraction of what I used to see and why I started this thread

I have to chime in about cost of a race car and let you think about it. I purchased a 2001 Ford Focus for $800 and with every thing in from cage to nomex socks, my cost is less than $5000. So I'm not sure where the problem of cost is. Yes, I did a lot of work myself and bought used things from the forum. The. Bottom line is I AM RACING! Is it the fastest car in GT5? Hell no, I get lapped by other GT5's, but I had a blast this past BARC weekend and will continue to improve both my car and my lap times as I go. For me racing is a long term commitment with steady improvement.
I have a home, 2 daughters in University and other commitments but have wanted to race for the last 30 years.
So maybe cost isn't the problem?

Steve
#54 GT 5

iamthewheelman
08-10-2015, 04:01 AM
Everytime one of these threads pops up I fail to comment, but this time I am going to.

I am part of the young demographic that you would like to get racing. I am 23 and have a good job with enough disposable income to go racing, for now anyway. I have raced since I was 10 years old. Like most I started in karts but quickly realized my family could not support my racing dream, after getting involved at a higher level running Rotax, when I was 16. After a few short years of Rotax and running out of money very quickly, I found CASC through one thing or another and Scott Murphin was kind enough to lend advice about getting involved in time attack or road racing. I wanted to road race but by this point my parents were no longer financially supporting me and time attack is were I went because it seemed like the best next step to eventually going wheel to wheel racing in a car. Four years later I am still running time attack in both CASC and CSCS. However, I want to go back wheel to wheel racing more than ever. This year I have had a real itch to start but here some main points why I haven't made any moves to do so yet, and this is from my vantage point, someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

1. It doesnt seem rewarding enough as a driver. I don't want to run in a class with only 5 other cars in it, all of which are so vastly different the only reason they pass each other is because one can handle and one can go fast up the back straight. You race on one track for the most part, why not run races at SMP, and TMP and Calabogie aswell. What happened to the new DDT being able to hold road race events. Different drivers suit different tracks it seems like it would make the championship rewarding.

2. You say your welcoming but I don't feel welcome. Some guy bashes my car choice, because it's front wheel drive and doesn't have a V8, come on really? I started a thread aasking about why there was no class like spec miata here in Ontario and got told to get a group of my friends to build cars and then come race in the class' that already exist. That doesn't sound very realistic. Although I do understand the man power it would take may be difficult and it's not the answer to everyone's problems there is alot of other series trying to start up it seems and it's tried and true possibility to gain interest here.

3. Rules. Racing in the SCCA and NASA interests me because they have an appealing rules package for classes like Spec Miata, Spec E30, Honda Challenge and Improved Touring. It's similar cars racing on a variety of tracks were they eventually work up to a national championship at the end of the year. I don't see anything like that here, it seems very old school where you promote each race weekend individually from each other rather than as a whole season where there is points battles and a title fight.

4. The cost and procedure to get my race certification. I feel I have an adequate racing background to both handle a vehicle on a track and understand proper race etiquette and protocol. Is there no probation procedure for drivers who can clearly handle the environment because they have previous racing experience? I am not trying to sound arogant and like I am too good for the system but every year I decide to pass on the race school because I know I won't be fully committed to the series even though I'd love to do an arrive and drive weekend to get my feet wet.

Maybe it all seems like I want to play boy racer, but every form of racing I have been introduced too has similar cars racing on a variety of tracks working towards a championship. CASC seems to have such a vast variety of cars racing on one track with no real point in the end other than the short term goals of that race weekend. Based on the points I raised F1200 and F1600 seem like they would suit me but I would prefer to race a closed cockpit car with fenders, but beggers can't be choosers sometimes I suppose.

Many friends that I race time attack with feel the same way I do and are young and meet the guidelines of people you would like to see get involved who are very passionate about motorsports. I consider myself a racer before a car enthusiast unlike most of the CSCS types that seem to see racing as a cool sideshow to all the other stuff at those events. And I wouldn't have thought I would like time attack as much as I have but it provides me with a good option for now while I unfortunately struggle to find value in CASC road racing.

KLZEMX6
08-10-2015, 09:50 AM
everytime one of these threads pops up i fail to comment, but this time i am going to.

I am part of the young demographic that you would like to get racing. I am 23 and have a good job with enough disposable income to go racing, for now anyway. I have raced since i was 10 years old. Like most i started in karts but quickly realized my family could not support my racing dream, after getting involved at a higher level running rotax, when i was 16. After a few short years of rotax and running out of money very quickly, i found casc through one thing or another and scott murphin was kind enough to lend advice about getting involved in time attack or road racing. I wanted to road race but by this point my parents were no longer financially supporting me and time attack is were i went because it seemed like the best next step to eventually going wheel to wheel racing in a car. Four years later i am still running time attack in both casc and cscs. However, i want to go back wheel to wheel racing more than ever. This year i have had a real itch to start but here some main points why i haven't made any moves to do so yet, and this is from my vantage point, someone please correct me if i'm wrong.

1. It doesnt seem rewarding enough as a driver. I don't want to run in a class with only 5 other cars in it, all of which are so vastly different the only reason they pass each other is because one can handle and one can go fast up the back straight. You race on one track for the most part, why not run races at smp, and tmp and calabogie aswell. What happened to the new ddt being able to hold road race events. Different drivers suit different tracks it seems like it would make the championship rewarding.

2. You say your welcoming but i don't feel welcome. Some guy bashes my car choice, because it's front wheel drive and doesn't have a v8, come on really? I started a thread aasking about why there was no class like spec miata here in ontario and got told to get a group of my friends to build cars and then come race in the class' that already exist. That doesn't sound very realistic. Although i do understand the man power it would take may be difficult and it's not the answer to everyone's problems there is alot of other series trying to start up it seems and it's tried and true possibility to gain interest here.

3. Rules. Racing in the scca and nasa interests me because they have an appealing rules package for classes like spec miata, spec e30, honda challenge and improved touring. It's similar cars racing on a variety of tracks were they eventually work up to a national championship at the end of the year. I don't see anything like that here, it seems very old school where you promote each race weekend individually from each other rather than as a whole season where there is points battles and a title fight.

4. The cost and procedure to get my race certification. I feel i have an adequate racing background to both handle a vehicle on a track and understand proper race etiquette and protocol. Is there no probation procedure for drivers who can clearly handle the environment because they have previous racing experience? I am not trying to sound arogant and like i am too good for the system but every year i decide to pass on the race school because i know i won't be fully committed to the series even though i'd love to do an arrive and drive weekend to get my feet wet.

Maybe it all seems like i want to play boy racer, but every form of racing i have been introduced too has similar cars racing on a variety of tracks working towards a championship. Casc seems to have such a vast variety of cars racing on one track with no real point in the end other than the short term goals of that race weekend. Based on the points i raised f1200 and f1600 seem like they would suit me but i would prefer to race a closed cockpit car with fenders, but beggers can't be choosers sometimes i suppose.

Many friends that i race time attack with feel the same way i do and are young and meet the guidelines of people you would like to see get involved who are very passionate about motorsports. I consider myself a racer before a car enthusiast unlike most of the cscs types that seem to see racing as a cool sideshow to all the other stuff at those events. And i wouldn't have thought i would like time attack as much as i have but it provides me with a good option for now while i unfortunately struggle to find value in casc road racing.


bingo!

Steven Scala
08-10-2015, 11:33 AM
If you look at the number of show entries/spectators at CSCS compared to actual time attack or drifting entries, the number of competitors is very low. I've tried to get some people I know that are very into spectating out to autoslalom or time attack schools, or even general lapping with instruction available, and have had next to no interest. CSCS does a lot of things right to drive people to their events, but I don't think the vast majority of their audience has any interest in actually competing in any sort of race event.

+1 on this point: the last CSCS event that I saw had what looked like fewer than 30 cars out to compete in the day's speed events, and about five times as many for show'n shine stuff. Lotsa kids through the gates but I'd venture to guess despite CSCS' serious marketability advantage, OTA probably has the depth-of-field. Then again (full disclosure, etc.) I haven't been to an OTA event, like, ever.

KLZEMX6
08-10-2015, 11:36 AM
+1 on this point: the last CSCS event that I saw had what looked like fewer than 30 cars out to compete in the day's speed events, and about five times as many for show'n shine stuff. Lotsa kids through the gates but I'd venture to guess despite CSCS' serious marketability advantage, OTA probably has the depth-of-field. Then again (full disclosure, etc.) I haven't been to an OTA event, like, ever.

Almost every CSCS event for the past 2 or 3 seasons has been sold out for time attack with 70+ cars. The only exception to that was the last event in montreall and because we hadn't been there before there was only approx 45 cars for time attack

Steven Scala
08-10-2015, 11:49 AM
...Some guy bashes my car choice, because it's front wheel drive and doesn't have a V8, come on really?...

You might see this at Mosport from those in denial that the place is 100% a FWD track. They just hatin', bro.

Besides that, I think your point on licence prequalification is valid, and maybe speaks to inter-organizational communication.

As for equality of competition on the closed-wheel side, I remember having the same view coming out of school-series racing but have since learned that this issue is intrinsic to short races scored on a bracket system. When you have these guys on laptime, it just takes 5-8 laps to make a pass stick. In endurance races (particularly those with WYSIWYG technical classifications), it's less of an issue.

Steven Scala
08-10-2015, 01:20 PM
Almost every CSCS event for the past 2 or 3 seasons has been sold out for time attack with 70+ cars. The only exception to that was the last event in montreall and because we hadn't been there before there was only approx 45 cars for time attack

I stand corrected: reviewed their 2015 standings and round 1 (the one event I've attended) had 36 cars entered in the TA. After 3 rounds, 71 cars are now in the overall standings.

KLZEMX6
08-10-2015, 01:27 PM
I stand corrected: reviewed their 2015 standings and round 1 (the one event I've attended) had 36 cars entered in the TA. After 3 rounds, 71 cars are now in the overall standings.

The reason for only 36 cars at rd1 is not every car qualifies for time attack. Usually 6-8 cars per class depending on track and only if you're within 110 percent of the fastest lap of the leader of your class

ROTARY ROCKET
08-10-2015, 01:43 PM
Everytime one of these threads pops up I fail to comment, but this time I am going to.

I am part of the young demographic that you would like to get racing. I am 23 and have a good job with enough disposable income to go racing, for now anyway. I have raced since I was 10 years old. Like most I started in karts but quickly realized my family could not support my racing dream, after getting involved at a higher level running Rotax, when I was 16. After a few short years of Rotax and running out of money very quickly, I found CASC through one thing or another and Scott Murphin was kind enough to lend advice about getting involved in time attack or road racing. I wanted to road race but by this point my parents were no longer financially supporting me and time attack is were I went because it seemed like the best next step to eventually going wheel to wheel racing in a car. Four years later I am still running time attack in both CASC and CSCS. However, I want to go back wheel to wheel racing more than ever. This year I have had a real itch to start but here some main points why I haven't made any moves to do so yet, and this is from my vantage point, someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

1. It doesnt seem rewarding enough as a driver. I don't want to run in a class with only 5 other cars in it, all of which are so vastly different the only reason they pass each other is because one can handle and one can go fast up the back straight. You race on one track for the most part, why not run races at SMP, and TMP and Calabogie aswell. What happened to the new DDT being able to hold road race events. Different drivers suit different tracks it seems like it would make the championship rewarding.

2. You say your welcoming but I don't feel welcome. Some guy bashes my car choice, because it's front wheel drive and doesn't have a V8, come on really? I started a thread aasking about why there was no class like spec miata here in Ontario and got told to get a group of my friends to build cars and then come race in the class' that already exist. That doesn't sound very realistic. Although I do understand the man power it would take may be difficult and it's not the answer to everyone's problems there is alot of other series trying to start up it seems and it's tried and true possibility to gain interest here.

3. Rules. Racing in the SCCA and NASA interests me because they have an appealing rules package for classes like Spec Miata, Spec E30, Honda Challenge and Improved Touring. It's similar cars racing on a variety of tracks were they eventually work up to a national championship at the end of the year. I don't see anything like that here, it seems very old school where you promote each race weekend individually from each other rather than as a whole season where there is points battles and a title fight.

4. The cost and procedure to get my race certification. I feel I have an adequate racing background to both handle a vehicle on a track and understand proper race etiquette and protocol. Is there no probation procedure for drivers who can clearly handle the environment because they have previous racing experience? I am not trying to sound arogant and like I am too good for the system but every year I decide to pass on the race school because I know I won't be fully committed to the series even though I'd love to do an arrive and drive weekend to get my feet wet.

Maybe it all seems like I want to play boy racer, but every form of racing I have been introduced too has similar cars racing on a variety of tracks working towards a championship. CASC seems to have such a vast variety of cars racing on one track with no real point in the end other than the short term goals of that race weekend. Based on the points I raised F1200 and F1600 seem like they would suit me but I would prefer to race a closed cockpit car with fenders, but beggers can't be choosers sometimes I suppose.

Many friends that I race time attack with feel the same way I do and are young and meet the guidelines of people you would like to see get involved who are very passionate about motorsports. I consider myself a racer before a car enthusiast unlike most of the CSCS types that seem to see racing as a cool sideshow to all the other stuff at those events. And I wouldn't have thought I would like time attack as much as I have but it provides me with a good option for now while I unfortunately struggle to find value in CASC road racing.

All bang on wheelman!

Fubawu
08-10-2015, 02:40 PM
My thoughts are below in red. I have to argue with Jim and Erik on some of the points. I also agree on a couple as well.

Everytime one of these threads pops up I fail to comment, but this time I am going to.

I am part of the young demographic that you would like to get racing. I am 23 and have a good job with enough disposable income to go racing, for now anyway. I have raced since I was 10 years old. Like most I started in karts but quickly realized my family could not support my racing dream, after getting involved at a higher level running Rotax, when I was 16. After a few short years of Rotax and running out of money very quickly, I found CASC through one thing or another and Scott Murphin was kind enough to lend advice about getting involved in time attack or road racing. I wanted to road race but by this point my parents were no longer financially supporting me and time attack is were I went because it seemed like the best next step to eventually going wheel to wheel racing in a car. Four years later I am still running time attack in both CASC and CSCS. However, I want to go back wheel to wheel racing more than ever. This year I have had a real itch to start but here some main points why I haven't made any moves to do so yet, and this is from my vantage point, someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

1. It doesnt seem rewarding enough as a driver. I don't want to run in a class with only 5 other cars in it, all of which are so vastly different the only reason they pass each other is because one can handle and one can go fast up the back straight. You race on one track for the most part, why not run races at SMP, and TMP and Calabogie aswell. What happened to the new DDT being able to hold road race events. Different drivers suit different tracks it seems like it would make the championship rewarding.

This doesn't add up as most Time Attack events you run have 2-5 cars in each class. We do race at Calibogie and SMP and not everything can be a spec series. I will agree that I would relish the idea of a spec series but most drive what they have in their garage. That being said there are a ton of opportunities to run a semi spec series i.e. 944 Cup, BMW Club etc

2. You say your welcoming but I don't feel welcome. Some guy bashes my car choice, because it's front wheel drive and doesn't have a V8, come on really? I started a thread aasking about why there was no class like spec miata here in Ontario and got told to get a group of my friends to build cars and then come race in the class' that already exist. That doesn't sound very realistic. Although I do understand the man power it would take may be difficult and it's not the answer to everyone's problems there is alot of other series trying to start up it seems and it's tried and true possibility to gain interest here. This doesn't really matter as long as there has been racing there has been people bashing different brands. Come out to an event everyone is very friendly and will help you no matter what you drive

3. Rules. Racing in the SCCA and NASA interests me because they have an appealing rules package for classes like Spec Miata, Spec E30, Honda Challenge and Improved Touring. It's similar cars racing on a variety of tracks were they eventually work up to a national championship at the end of the year. I don't see anything like that here, it seems very old school where you promote each race weekend individually from each other rather than as a whole season where there is points battles and a title fight.I agree with this all the way, I would like to see a true points system and put a little more effort towards a season total. I see two extremes here road racing with CASC is very laid back in this regard, too laid back if you ask me. Then again I see Time Attack events spraying Champagne for a 3 car field. Something in the middle would be nice.

4. The cost and procedure to get my race certification. I feel I have an adequate racing background to both handle a vehicle on a track and understand proper race etiquette and protocol. Is there no probation procedure for drivers who can clearly handle the environment because they have previous racing experience? I am not trying to sound arogant and like I am too good for the system but every year I decide to pass on the race school because I know I won't be fully committed to the series even though I'd love to do an arrive and drive weekend to get my feet wet.I have to argue this one as it is too vauge. I agree Erik and Jim are excellent drivers and would slot in nicely to our fields. That being said many drivers are new or unknown, I like the fact they have to follow some sort guidelines before we go side by side through 4. The BMW school is solid and only takes two days. Trust me you will appreciate this.

Maybe it all seems like I want to play boy racer, but every form of racing I have been introduced too has similar cars racing on a variety of tracks working towards a championship. CASC seems to have such a vast variety of cars racing on one track with no real point in the end other than the short term goals of that race weekend. Based on the points I raised F1200 and F1600 seem like they would suit me but I would prefer to race a closed cockpit car with fenders, but beggers can't be choosers sometimes I suppose. I agree with this, adding a proper season long championship would add excitement. That being said no matter the car you have you will find a group to compete with after a couple of races.

Many friends that I race time attack with feel the same way I do and are young and meet the guidelines of people you would like to see get involved who are very passionate about motorsports. I consider myself a racer before a car enthusiast unlike most of the CSCS types that seem to see racing as a cool sideshow to all the other stuff at those events. And I wouldn't have thought I would like time attack as much as I have but it provides me with a good option for now while I unfortunately struggle to find value in CASC road racing. No reason you can't do a little of both. In the end you will find value with CASC. Get your license and get out there for a couple weekends a year!

iamthewheelman
08-10-2015, 05:38 PM
John you know me enough to know someone's opinion on vehicle preference doesn't bother me enough not come to the racetrack, but other people who are new might be scared away completely. I also know this isn't everybody's opinion it's just a bit of a turn off, but maybe I just need thicker skin.

You are correct in that OTA class specific entries are often small but because of the PAX system it keeps the competition aspect interesting, and it is what I mainly focus on. If PAX did not exist I would not be racing OTA either.

The license system for road racing works very well I am sure, I just don't find it convenient for myself. Again, maybe I am being arogant.

I will be honest and say I forgot about the BMW and Porche club racing that you suggested but last time I looked, to run for points I would have to travel south of the boarder and that is something that right now I can't commit the time and money to doing. But even if I could do it I wouldn't be racing with CASC except for a weekend or two for testing purposes.

Kcodekid
08-10-2015, 07:48 PM
John you know me enough to know someone's opinion on vehicle preference doesn't bother me enough not come to the racetrack, but other people who are new might be scared away completely. I also know this isn't everybody's opinion it's just a bit of a turn off, but maybe I just need thicker skin.

You are correct in that OTA class specific entries are often small but because of the PAX system it keeps the competition aspect interesting, and it is what I mainly focus on. If PAX did not exist I would not be racing OTA either.

The license system for road racing works very well I am sure, I just don't find it convenient for myself. Again, maybe I am being arogant.

I will be honest and say I forgot about the BMW and Porche club racing that you suggested but last time I looked, to run for points I would have to travel south of the boarder and that is something that right now I can't commit the time and money to doing. But even if I could do it I wouldn't be racing with CASC except for a weekend or two for testing purposes.


I am confused which happens a lot but we do race for point in GT Sprint can someone explain what is wrong with the CASC points system

DavidSim
08-10-2015, 08:52 PM
iamthewheelman,

I would like to respond to your points as follows:

>>I don't want to run in a class with only 5 other cars in it, all of which are so vastly different the only reason they pass each other is because one can handle and one can go fast up the back straight.<<

I guess it depends on your goals, if you just want to have some fun with some great people, and develop your skills, then what does it matter how many cars are out there in your class.

If, however, you are super serious about racing, no doubt there are people who can challenge you on the track, Club Racing is a great arena to get your feet wet as such.

There are good drivers with good cars, good drivers with not so good cars, and not so good drivers with good cars, such is the mix. As people get more experience they become better drivers and this gets to be less of an issue. As long as everyone respects each other's abilities, and give the newbies some accommodation, it should all work out over time.

Like someone explained to me recently, not everyone is a Michael Schumacher, we have to work on our skills and improve over time; if Club Racing is to continue and prosper then the seasoned racers out on the track need to realize that and be accommodating, simple as that.

>>You say your welcoming but I don't feel welcome. Some guy bashes my car choice, because it's front wheel drive and doesn't have a V8, come on really?<<

I found most everyone I have come in to contact with so far (notice I said "most"), in racing, both on and off the track, to be very gracious and helpful.

Anyone who bashes you for your vehicle choice is just being silly, if they are serious then just ignore them.

Grow a thicker skin, get out there and enjoy yourself.

>>Rules.<<

Our world is built on rules, get used to it, use them to your advantage.

>>The cost and procedure to get my race certification.<<

I consider it a small price to pay, if you cannot afford the time or expense then maybe the whole thing is not for you to begin with.

If you want something easy, cheap, and quick, check out McDonalds.

>>CASC seems to have such a vast variety of cars racing on one track with no real point in the end other than the short term goals of that race weekend<<

Lots of classes is good, pick the one best suited to you and get the heck out there.

My short term goal, is the same as my long term goal, HAVE FUN !!!

iamthewheelman,

if your heart is truly in it, you will find a way.

ScotcH
08-10-2015, 09:12 PM
I guess it depends on your goals, if you just want to have some fun with some great people, and develop your skills, then what does it matter how many cars are out there in your class.



Dude ... that's called lapping, and it's a lot cheaper than racing. I'm all for having fun, and a good weekend with friends and beer in the evening is always welcome, but in the end, this supposed to be RACING. If you're not racing against anyone, why bother? I think that's the point he's making ... yes, there may be 25 cars out, but only 1 is anywhere near your lap times, it's not going to much fun RACING. Yes, I can work on my lines, and my skills. But it's not racing, which is what the point is!

DavidSim
08-10-2015, 09:18 PM
>>I'm all for having fun, and a good weekend with friends and beer in the evening is always welcome, but in the end, this supposed to be RACING<<

Arek,

you are entitled to your opinion.

I've added another line to my post to balance out my statement, how's that ?

BTW,

I've never been called a "Dude" before, I kind a like it.

Are you a Dude too ?

shaker351
08-10-2015, 09:41 PM
.Some guy bashes my car choice, because it's front wheel drive and doesn't have a V8, come on really?..

No one is bashing anyone's car choice run whatever you want as long as your having fun. The question was asked what happened to "racing". And part of my reply was that i believe racing today, is and has been for a while catering too and promoting the lower levels of racing (lowest common denominator) and i believe by doing this it is killing racing in general.Cater and promote the upper levels of racing and the rest will follow.My answer was also directed to racing in general not any specific form of racing or racing series.

Fubawu
08-10-2015, 10:34 PM
I really think Iamthewheelman brings up valid points
But once you get out there you realize the rules are not that
daunting and there are more cars to race against then you
think. On paper it may not look like that but once you get into
your first race your opinion will change.

abrracing
08-10-2015, 11:35 PM
I guess you really have to define what "racing" is. If running with 17 other cars on the Grand Prix track for 20 minutes, 40 minutes, 1 hour or whatever and only 2-3 of those cars are in any close proximity for more than a lap or 2 is that "racing" for the other cars involved? I can't tell you how many times I have been at that track in all levels of racing and watched what has been no more than a lapping session for all but 2-3 cars. I have watched World Challenge have an 8 car grid some years ago and 3 cars had a great fight, the others were just "lapping", CTCC, Trans-am etc. I don't know how anyone defines racing other than being on a track competing for either a set number of laps or time and the 1st one to complete that wins.

ScotcH
08-10-2015, 11:52 PM
>>I'm all for having fun, and a good weekend with friends and beer in the evening is always welcome, but in the end, this supposed to be RACING<<

Arek,

you are entitled to your opinion.

I've added another line to my post to balance out my statement, how's that ?

BTW,

I've never been called a "Dude" before, I kind a like it.

Are you a Dude too ?

I'd like to think I'm THE dude, but the title has been taken:

https://a4-images.myspacecdn.com/images03/34/e442fa8f4c414c27bc0caf116a69bff3/300x300.jpg

DavidSim
08-11-2015, 07:43 AM
LOL,

good comeback Arek.

I wish you, and everyone else, well.

Take care.

davedarrow
08-11-2015, 11:20 AM
And this is why SCCA racing has race groups so when a grid hits the track you could tie a rope between most of them

And this is also why any Formula race series is competitive
I guess you really have to define what "racing" is. If running with 17 other cars on the Grand Prix track for 20 minutes, 40 minutes, 1 hour or whatever and only 2-3 of those cars are in any close proximity for more than a lap or 2 is that "racing" for the other cars involved? I can't tell you how many times I have been at that track in all levels of racing and watched what has been no more than a lapping session for all but 2-3 cars. I have watched World Challenge have an 8 car grid some years ago and 3 cars had a great fight, the others were just "lapping", CTCC, Trans-am etc. I don't know how anyone defines racing other than being on a track competing for either a set number of laps or time and the 1st one to complete that wins.

Dave Barker
08-11-2015, 12:12 PM
Few comments on the Time-attack series. Last year we had only 83 different entrants in the series but 44 of them ran enough events to qualify for the shoot out and maximum points. After event 5 we have already surpassed our total number of entrants with 4 events yet to run.

As for class sizes, 3 classes already have 12 or more entrants. Admittedly at the fast and slow end of the scale the pickin's get pretty thin but the PAX scoring system seems to work very well. (Witness a Corvette winning at the DDT and a CRX winning at MIR).It effectively gives you a class of 40 or more. No body wins the series by being a slow driver with the "right" car.

Yes, Arek, it isn't wheel to wheel "Racing" and it certainly isn't a spectator sport, but the competition is pretty good. Just think of it as race qualifying.

ScotcH
08-11-2015, 12:29 PM
Yes, Arek, it isn't wheel to wheel "Racing" and it certainly isn't a spectator sport, but the competition is pretty good. Just think of it as race qualifying.

Absolutely Dave, my time in SoloSprint was some of my best track memories, and really helped me be a faster racer all around. My point was that when you enter a W2W racing event (I should have been more clear ... racing against the clock is still competition), you want to be next to some other cars :)

Imagine if you took the SoloSprint rule book, added some mandatory safety requirements, and applied it to W2W racing?!?! You'd have cars running within 10ths of a second lap times in each class, and you'd have 12+ cars in a class, and you would have no sandbaggers trying to hit close to some arbitrary breakout time. That would be pretty spectacular, no? :D

Saj5DJ
08-11-2015, 12:41 PM
Imagine if you took the SoloSprint rule book, added some mandatory safety requirements, and applied it to W2W racing?!?! You'd have cars running within 10ths of a second lap times in each class, and you'd have 12+ cars in a class, and you would have no sandbaggers trying to hit close to some arbitrary breakout time. That would be pretty spectacular, no? :D

That actually sounds pretty damn good to me... combine it with a longer run format that allows drivers to share cars and costs. Would be like Chump without the sillyness of (apparently) open engine swaps.

Kcodekid
08-11-2015, 12:46 PM
I ask again what is wrong with the CASC points system?

ScotcH
08-11-2015, 01:06 PM
I ask again what is wrong with the CASC points system?

Nothing wrong with it probably, but I just don't think anyone cares ... the individual race weekends are promoted separately. There is no real "series" per say, just individual races that random cars show up at. No incentive to show up at more than one race weekend.

davedarrow
08-11-2015, 01:29 PM
Wow I never looked at Sprints like that before, once again SCCA has classes, you build a car to fit that class, you have to go to 4 regionals to qualify for the Run-Offs and that's where you get the big Award. Having said that I'm sure grids in the States are way down too with the economy in present state but the formula is structured much more professionally than sprints which is basically Formula Libre for tin tops.
Nothing wrong with it probably, but I just don't think anyone cares ... the individual race weekends are promoted separately. There is no real "series" per say, just individual races that random cars show up at. No incentive to show up at more than one race weekend.

Steven Scala
08-11-2015, 01:45 PM
I ask again what is wrong with the CASC points system?

Strictly speaking in terms of the GT Sprints, the classing system may be sufficient in spreading trophies around but it doesn't have the WYSIWYG spectator accessibility of a less prescriptive/more descriptive classification system like that used by CSCS: instead of 'cars that do this laptime, cars that do that laptime,' it's 'fwd cars, rwd cars, awd cars at this general prep level or that.' Much easier for a newcomer to understand, and there are plenty of options available in terms of class based on slick vs. DOT, general displacement or whatever, plus the overall.

I hear that Quebec super production works like this but I'm not sure. We don't have the inter-regional communication that I hear we used to have before the nineties.

ScotcH
08-11-2015, 02:22 PM
Here is my 2c on this whole issue, and I've said it before ... maybe this is a bit more focused.

1. GT Challenge tried to fix some of what we're talking about ... it was an attempt at a real series, with small number of classes. They accommodated car sharing, and ran on a single day (all good things). There are a couple problems that I see though.
2. There was a split in car counts between GT Sprints and GT Challenge. For this to work, there needs to be ONE sedan series in CASC. There is just not enough cars to fill more than one series
3. The classes need to accommodate all cars in the region, and do it somewhat competitively. GT Sprints is a run what you brung, and it accommodates everyone, at the expense of good competition and incentive to modify for a class.

So how to fix this? Again, my take on it ...

1. Scrap GT Sprints and GT Challenge and start over. Period. Take the best of both and create something totally new. The pain will be large, but it will be quick. Like a bandaid. Longer races, multi-driver, single day, team championship, etc. Whatever works best, use it.
2. Come up with a rule set that accommodates all cars, and promotes close competition. This is difficult, but not impossible ... I hinted at it earlier. Take the SoloSprint rules and adapt them, reduce classes to say 5 or even fewer, simplify some of the rules and fit them to a race car environment (not street cars). There is even automated classing software so no one needs to use their brain (I wrote it ... it's awesome, lol ;) ) In Solosprint, all cars are technically capable of winning the championship.
3. Promote it as a real series, with a real championship. Go after sponsors for a real championship incentive ... not a jug of oil or a t-shirt and hat, but something concrete. Even a small purse to cover the event entry fees. Can you imagine going to a race weekend, and racing for free? Would that not be a great incentive to make your car a class winner? We're talking maybe $3k in prize $ per weekend. Scrap the BBQ and use the money from that.
4. Let the competitors be the rule techs and police. If a car is way too fast for the class, let others examine it ... and if it's found illegal, then throw the book at them. Self policing is very effective ... no one want to be caught cheating by their competitors.

Just some ideas to toss around. If there is a will, there is a way ... but the will needs to be there, or this is all a moot point.

Saj5DJ
08-11-2015, 02:39 PM
The above is something I'd try very hard to find the means to compete in if it existed.

davedarrow
08-11-2015, 02:43 PM
Bingo!

Sprints does nothing to make a driver show up at a minimum amount of events to qualify for the big prize, Bracket racing is a cheater's dream come true, GT Challenge grouped ducks with ducks, fish with fish and so on like racing everywhere else in the world. The present mission is to keep this sport going , not sit back and watch
the ship sink.
Here is my 2c on this whole issue, and I've said it before ... maybe this is a bit more focused.

1. GT Challenge tried to fix some of what we're talking about ... it was an attempt at a real series, with small number of classes. They accommodated car sharing, and ran on a single day (all good things). There are a couple problems that I see though.
2. There was a split in car counts between GT Sprints and GT Challenge. For this to work, there needs to be ONE sedan series in CASC. There is just not enough cars to fill more than one series
3. The classes need to accommodate all cars in the region, and do it somewhat competitively. GT Sprints is a run what you brung, and it accommodates everyone, at the expense of good competition and incentive to modify for a class.

So how to fix this? Again, my take on it ...

1. Scrap GT Sprints and GT Challenge and start over. Period. Take the best of both and create something totally new. The pain will be large, but it will be quick. Like a bandaid. Longer races, multi-driver, single day, team championship, etc. Whatever works best, use it.
2. Come up with a rule set that accommodates all cars, and promotes close competition. This is difficult, but not impossible ... I hinted at it earlier. Take the SoloSprint rules and adapt them, reduce classes to say 5 or even fewer, simplify some of the rules and fit them to a race car environment (not street cars). There is even automated classing software so no one needs to use their brain (I wrote it ... it's awesome, lol ;) ) In Solosprint, all cars are technically capable of winning the championship.
3. Promote it as a real series, with a real championship. Go after sponsors for a real championship incentive ... not a jug of oil or a t-shirt and hat, but something concrete. Even a small purse to cover the event entry fees. Can you imagine going to a race weekend, and racing for free? Would that not be a great incentive to make your car a class winner? We're talking maybe $3k in prize $ per weekend. Scrap the BBQ and use the money from that.
4. Let the competitors be the rule techs and police. If a car is way too fast for the class, let others examine it ... and if it's found illegal, then throw the book at them. Self policing is very effective ... no one want to be caught cheating by their competitors.

Just some ideas to toss around. If there is a will, there is a way ... but the will needs to be there, or this is all a moot point.

Steven Scala
08-11-2015, 03:24 PM
I'm down for anything that provides a descriptive class structure while sidestepping the unresolvable quagmire of performance-balancing. Having seen a range of efforts from Gunter's calculator to IMSA BoP to the GT Challenge's 'torque don't matter' pwr/weight formula, these ongoing efforts are all as ugly for volunteer officials as brackets are for spectators.

ScotcH
08-11-2015, 03:40 PM
I'm down for anything that provides a descriptive class structure while sidestepping the unresolvable quagmire of performance-balancing. Having seen a range of efforts from Gunter's calculator to IMSA BoP to the GT Challenge's 'torque don't matter' pwr/weight formula, these ongoing efforts are all as ugly for volunteer officials as brackets are for spectators.

Forever the optimist ;)

DavidSim
08-11-2015, 03:57 PM
You folks seem to be assuming that the majority believe the current system is broken, I would suggest you may want to consider asking the active racers if they believe that to be true or not.

Just saying ...... !

Steven Scala
08-11-2015, 04:13 PM
Chances are that if they're winning in one of the brackets, they'll probably like it just fine.

abrracing
08-11-2015, 04:32 PM
Just wondering if the brackets are broken why are they still the biggest class at a regional weekend? Same with G70 and G90? Maybe the classification isn't the issue at all.

AlfaKen
08-11-2015, 04:42 PM
Why not do what we do in Vintage and assign points for class wins and participation points? If my count is right, we have 8 points races, on 4 different tracks and trophies are awarded at the end of season banquet. Some of us don't care about wins or points, but it is there for those who do.
BTW, we use a bracket system as well. We tried to go back to the displacement system used back in the day but it seemed no one liked it. I'm having some difficulty understanding parts of this debate, because for me, and a lot of other vintage folks, I was very happy when I "broke out" it meant I was getting better, going faster, which was the reason I do this.

Kcodekid
08-11-2015, 04:44 PM
Ok you guys are talking about ways to include all levels of cars and rule set for same .Are you truly taking all cars into account ?or are you just trying to equalize all cars?
I am all for anything that helps w2w racing but I race a 700+hp GT1 car that weighs 2500+ wet with driver and by the last gt challenge formula I would need to weigh 3900 which if I wanted o prep my car for a class I would basically have to start from scratch which is not viable for anyone

davedarrow
08-11-2015, 04:53 PM
They always were the biggest class-when I started racing it was 62 cars most weekend, what's the average this season?

From what I've seen at RACE and ORO meetings it also had the most complaints-every class except GT1 -sandbagging-

Just wondering if the brackets are broken why are they still the biggest class at a regional weekend? Same with G70 and G90? Maybe the classification isn't the issue at all.

davedarrow
08-11-2015, 04:57 PM
Ken you are one of the minority that is there to see how fast you can make you car go-I belong to that club- Even in Vint/Hist there are sand baggers-I will never understand the logic myself-Maybe they weren't hugged enough as children???

Why not do what we do in Vintage and assign points for class wins and participation points? If my count is right, we have 8 points races, on 4 different tracks and trophies are awarded at the end of season banquet. Some of us don't care about wins or points, but it is there for those who do.
BTW, we use a bracket system as well. We tried to go back to the displacement system used back in the day but it seemed no one liked it. I'm having some difficulty understanding parts of this debate, because for me, and a lot of other vintage folks, I was very happy when I "broke out" it meant I was getting better, going faster, which was the reason I do this.

abrracing
08-11-2015, 05:06 PM
Watching the Nascar race at the Glen this past weekend was full of sandbaggers. Imagine that the fastest car didn't win the race!? The car that slowed down enough won the race. I seem to think that F1 runs on the same principle of going only as fast as you need to go...............So I guess a good percentage of all Pro Racing runs on the sand bag principle...............

davedarrow
08-11-2015, 05:10 PM
NASCAR and F1 are single class series, no sandbagging when there is only 3 podium spots for the whole grid my friend

Watching the Nascar race at the Glen this past weekend was full of sandbaggers. Imagine that the fastest car didn't win the race!? The car that slowed down enough won the race. I seem to think that F1 runs on the same principle of going only as fast as you need to go...............So I guess a good percentage of all Pro Racing runs on the sand bag principle...............

Steven Scala
08-11-2015, 05:41 PM
Watching the Nascar race at the Glen this past weekend was full of sandbaggers. Imagine that the fastest car didn't win the race!? The car that slowed down enough won the race. I seem to think that F1 runs on the same principle of going only as fast as you need to go...............So I guess a good percentage of all Pro Racing runs on the sand bag principle...............

'Winning at the slowest speed possible' is just best practice as far as race driving goes. It's what made the best of the best like Prost and Lauda better than really fast try-hards like Senna and Gilles.

Sandbagging, on the other hand, is entirely different. That's a deliberate attempt not to show your cards in order to game the system. Not the same.

Steven Scala
08-11-2015, 05:42 PM
Ok you guys are talking about ways to include all levels of cars and rule set for same .Are you truly taking all cars into account ?or are you just trying to equalize all cars?
I am all for anything that helps w2w racing but I race a 700+hp GT1 car that weighs 2500+ wet with driver and by the last gt challenge formula I would need to weigh 3900 which if I wanted o prep my car for a class I would basically have to start from scratch which is not viable for anyone

Hear, hear. Let 'em run what they brung.

abrracing
08-11-2015, 07:22 PM
'Winning at the slowest speed possible' is just best practice as far as race driving goes. It's what made the best of the best like Prost and Lauda better than really fast try-hards like Senna and Gilles.

Which is exactly what a driver does in a bracket race system. Only go as fast as you have to enables you to win the class.

So then all of NHRA, IHRA are all sandbagging? Running on a class index is sandbagging...........? So then eliminate the classes and the fastest cars will be on the podium. :)

Kcodekid
08-11-2015, 07:42 PM
'Winning at the slowest speed possible' is just best practice as far as race driving goes. It's what made the best of the best like Prost and Lauda better than really fast try-hards like Senna and Gilles.

Which is exactly what a driver does in a bracket race system. Only go as fast as you have to enables you to win the class.

So then all of NHRA, IHRA are all sandbagging? Running on a class index is sandbagging...........? So then eliminate the classes and the fastest cars will be on the podium. :)

Alan please tell me how I sandbag in GT1?

shaker351
08-11-2015, 07:46 PM
really you call saving fuel sand bagging It's called strategy BIG BIG difference.Kinda like lapping and racing Big difference.

abrracing
08-11-2015, 07:54 PM
Bryce I don't think anyone is "sandbagging" that was whole point. I also don't think the bracket system is broken either. I think we all need to look for ways to make road racing more accessible and less restrictive so our sport can grow on every level from grassroots to semi pro in Canada. I said earlier I will not promote criticizing the established ways and I will keep that promise. The bracket system allows a general group for ANYONE to find a place to fit in and race. I do not think road racing is in the position to be able to afford to change that aspect at the current time.

DavidSim
08-11-2015, 08:16 PM
>>I also don't think the bracket system is broken either. I think we all need to look for ways to make road racing more accessible and less restrictive so our sport can grow on every level from grassroots to semi pro in Canada. I said earlier I will not promote criticizing the established ways and I will keep that promise. The bracket system allows a general group for ANYONE to find a place to fit in and race. I do not think road racing is in the position to be able to afford to change that aspect at the current time.<<

I agree completely, well said.

I am a new racer (just attended my first race at CTMP a week ago), I found that the current system met my needs (before, and now after my first race), I am doing it for fun but I have the option of getting more serious about points as my skill level improves if I so choose.

So, in my humble opinion (as a newbie with only one race under his belt, and just a few hours in my race car in total) the current system works for me; I get to meet great people (both on and off the track), my family tags along (gosh, my wife even says she liked it), I get to run competitively at my own level and develop my skills (yes I need to get faster in the corners, have patience with the newbies please), and I find the cost not any greater than many other activities (plus it's cheaper than therapy).

In my books there is a hell of a lot more good, than not so good, with Club Racing.

DEK
08-11-2015, 11:43 PM
Anyone who thinks GT cars should be classed like in SCCA and a LOT of other series, eg World Challenge, Grand Am whatever has NO idea of the technical difficulties such rules create. So you decided you wanted to race a specific car, then you find out the sanctioning body decides what class the car is in. Nothing to do with how much you can afford to spend on the car, race engineers, test days and on and on.

Oh, and then you find out the engine shop that built your engine didn't do the valve job according to the rules, so your expensive cylinder heads are SCRAP.
Read the SCCA eligibility rules for tin tops and you will be astounded at the level of what is allowed and what is not allowed. As are the number of Scrutineers required. There will always be people that do things that the rules don't allow if there is minimal chance the infraction will be found. It's hard to get volunteers to stay at the track til midnight on Sunday to weigh/measure a crankshaft or whatever. A self funded racing series could never afford to pay for the staff required to ensure that the competition is "fair" . This somewhat works with SCCA because of the population/number of racers difference in Canada and the U.S.A.
Has Time Attack ever paid experts to examine the "winning" cars to ensure they are really following the rules? No saying anyone is doing things they shouldn't be, but where does Time Attack find volunteers with this kind of time ?

Does not matter if it is full on GT cars, Showroom stock or improved touring, time and MONEY is a HUGE asset. The SCCA GT cars are truly astonishing in terms of detail and performance.

In CASC, our F1200 and F1600 classes quite closely follow the SCCA and other bodies rules for these classes. Still difficult for the tech people even with only 2 kinds of engines in F1600 and 1 kind in F1200 versus many , many car and engine makes, models etc for tin tops.

Anyone care to guess how CASC ended up with "brackets" for GT cars where the only "tech" tool is a stop watch ??

As some have recently said, "maybe brackets are NOT really the problem with CASC Racing"

Bracket racing for CASC sedan racing was NOT invented by the Sanctioning body(CASC) .
It was envisioned and massaged by the competitors who were running GT cars at the time
and with the consent of CASC the restrictive previous rules were set aside.

ScotcH
08-12-2015, 12:27 AM
You missed a key point I mentioned: Let the COMPETITORS police themselves. And I'm not suggesting the rules need to be nearly as complicated as SCCA (ie, valve sizes, head milling, etc). I'm talking about "Motons vs Monroe" shocks ... very easy to see the difference, in the paddock, and on track.

Mike Canner
08-12-2015, 08:20 AM
Ok, reading this thread it is apparent that we all share the same fundamental concern, our sport is suffering from a lack of players.
What has not been mentioned here is the impact of the evolution of the basic street vehicle. When I got into playing with race vehicles I was "faster" than my street car. The way for me to drive a vehicle that would challenge me was to modify it to become faster than "me".
Look at what can be and is being bought out of the showroom today, vehicles that would have been competitive on the track not that many years ago are available to everybody.
To me 100 MPH was fast on the street, you were paying attention to what was going on, heart rate was coming up etc. You felt what it was like to start to push the limit. Now, new drivers are booming down the road, one hand on the wheel, yacking on the phone like they are in their living rooms at 160KPH because the cars give them the false sense that they are in full and complete control. To get the same sense of being near the limit they are way beyond nuts for street speeds.
The cars today are way "faster" than most drivers so why do they want to go faster and why would they need a race car when they can go to a lapping day and with a street car go as fast as they want to.
Is the evolution of the automobile killing racing?

shamrock
08-12-2015, 09:33 AM
Bryce I don't think anyone is "sandbagging" that was whole point. I also don't think the bracket system is broken either. I think we all need to look for ways to make road racing more accessible and less restrictive so our sport can grow on every level from grassroots to semi pro in Canada. I said earlier I will not promote criticizing the established ways and I will keep that promise. The bracket system allows a general group for ANYONE to find a place to fit in and race. I do not think road racing is in the position to be able to afford to change that aspect at the current time.

What he said. At this point if the bracket system went down you'd (completely) kill Ontario racing with astronomical "keep up with the Jones" costs. Get back on topic. I'm listening.

davedarrow
08-12-2015, 09:54 AM
Good points Mark!!

You made me think about my last 40 years of interest in racing.

As a kid saw amazing cars in the parking lot, when I was in public school a teacher had a 67 Camaro RS-way cool, in high school kids had Trans Am's Mustangs, Dodge Darts, a AMX , you'd turn on ABC Wide world of sports and see these cars Trans Am racing, back then Nascar racing was production based cars, not the cookie cutter silhouette cars they turned into.F1 cars all looked different from each other, you could see the engines and they all sounded unique, like the V12 Matra with titanium headers-I'll never forget that sound as long as I live!, you could actually walk up to a driver and not be dragged off by security,
For the most part what I see everyday is kids living in a electronic world and they are happy in it and don't want to go out and experience the real world any more. (Wall E)
There was a time when you had to pay over 30K for a Ford Model A, now I can pick up on for $7500,,Why? the people that wanted them are in a retirement home or dead.

Where am I going with this?

The people that are still regional racing are all that's left, this sport is on the downward slope, the world is changing way too fast and there are many recreation things that people do that are expensive and fluff, the world will survive just fine without disposable cash hobbies.

Sorry but I am a realist, I've been selling parts to the racing industry for 40 years and the racing customers have shrunk to less than 1 % of my sales.Ok, reading this thread it is apparent that we all share the same fundamental concern, our sport is suffering from a lack of players.
What has not been mentioned here is the impact of the evolution of the basic street vehicle. When I got into playing with race vehicles I was "faster" than my street car. The way for me to drive a vehicle that would challenge me was to modify it to become faster than "me".
Look at what can be and is being bought out of the showroom today, vehicles that would have been competitive on the track not that many years ago are available to everybody.
To me 100 MPH was fast on the street, you were paying attention to what was going on, heart rate was coming up etc. You felt what it was like to start to push the limit. Now, new drivers are booming down the road, one hand on the wheel, yacking on the phone like they are in their living rooms at 160KPH because the cars give them the false sense that they are in full and complete control. To get the same sense of being near the limit they are way beyond nuts for street speeds.
The cars today are way "faster" than most drivers so why do they want to go faster and why would they need a race car when they can go to a lapping day and with a street car go as fast as they want to.
Is the evolution of the automobile killing racing?

Steven Scala
08-12-2015, 10:29 AM
Darrow's right: at this point in modern history, the old rules and growth patterns no longer apply. Most industries will be managing decline. Those based simply on 'growth accommodation' will struggle for relevance. Beyond all that, times are still kinda tough. I think some strategic partnerships might help.

Canner also has a point: road car lapping is far more prominent than it once was, and the cars have a lot to do with it. They put down amazing times with minimal driver effort/investment/time/energy. (This may be why 'driving skill' these days is more closely associated with driftkhanas than with fast laptimes, but maybe that's another discussion.)

And David King's also right: prescriptive, detailed, and/or performance-balanced tech regs are effectively unmanageable. I strongly believe that open rulesets are the only way forward. I'll acknowledge that for all their shortcomings and limitations, brackets have thankfully enabled that. Unless the need for spectator relevance becomes undeniably pressing, there's effectively no good reason to scrap them anytime soon, particularly when there's other lower-lying fruit in terms of rookie recruitment and management: giving Chumpers their 'next step up,' sweeter rookie incentives, etc.

Fubawu
08-12-2015, 10:39 AM
What I find encouraging is the fact lapping and time attack numbers
are up. This is good news, 10 yrs ago a lapping day would have the same few cars there once a month. Now every time I am involved with a lapping day I'm amazed at the number of cars. Will this translate into more racers in the future? It can't hurt! I think we will see an influx soon and chances are it will not be like it was in the hey day of racing.

Cost's have to rise as Insurance companies and lawyers need their piece of the pie (that's part of the reason why we have race schools) It is not as simple as it was back in the 70's when you could go out and enter the Daytona 24hr race with a license and a helmet :eek:

Dave Barker
08-12-2015, 11:14 AM
Way back in the last epoch, when I first got involved in motorsport, my idea was to have a street car that I could cage and bring to the track to race. There was no real alternative until I heard of Solo 1 (the previous incarnation of Time-attack) and I didn't want the hassle of a tow vehicle and trailer.

Since then, the number of types of events including lapping days, Time-Attack, CSCS, BMW schools , Chumpcar etc have increased to the point that the total number of car enthusiasts who bring their cars to the track is likely not down at all but the choices are so varied that indeed not everyone wants, nor has the time or money to go wheel to wheel with CASC so the numbers appear down.

I don't think changing the rules for GT sprints vs GT challenge is really going to change that.

As for wanting to go fast, as mentioned above, there are lots of street cars that can go really fast with the final determinant being how much you want to spend on tires. If you want to compete with yourself, just get a good lap timer, they are remarkably accurate. If you want to compete with someone else of a level playing field, do Time-Attack. If you want to compete with someone just inside your rear fender going wheel to wheel, there are a number of kart series available as well as a personal favourite, Ice Racing.

Given that a number of folks just like to drive fast on a race track, (you would be surprised at the people I talk to at lapping days who are concerned that Time-Attack is too competitive), these people are unlikely to care whether the rule set for GT sprints includes time brackets or not.

I know this sounds negative from the OPs point of view but it isn't bad for motorsport in general.

How many novices do you think would be interested in renting cars for race weekends? I know that there are a few available and that the initial outlay for car, trailer and tow vehicle is daunting as it may be that in actual fact they don't like wheel to wheel racing. Could we get enough rental cars, (preferably slower type ) to get a field of similar prepped cars where these guys could get time on a race weekend to have a novice race and not have to go through some of the hoops required for a B licence? My guess is running a slower GT sprint car in a field where the fast GT1 and GT2 cars will be lapping you in short order at greatly differing speeds and driver skill would be one of the reasons why newcomers are harder to find.

ROTARY ROCKET
08-12-2015, 05:49 PM
All really good points here, and I'm glad someone from CASC stepped up ( and cared enough) to chime in. Dave is right, it is impossible to scrutineer the way SCCA does it, we just don't have that volume of interests in Canada.

Having said that I am a SCCA member, and I can tell you the grass is not greener on the other side of the fence/ boarder. The difference is SCCA has realized the issues early enough and started making changes in 2013, and now is in the full blown adjusting stage, bracket enduros, track nights, to name a few. SCCA sees the value of their members and they know that if they make the changes, as well as work with the lapping day group, theses seeds will flourish.

I quote: Lisa Noble, SCCA President & CEO,
P.S. We are constantly working to improve what we offer our members and we welcome your feedback. Please drop me a note at noble@scca.com or call me at 1-800-770-****
This is how the president ends her emails, so i'm pretty sure she means it. I just renewed my SCCA membership, not knowing if I will be racing there this winter, I feel I really want to be a SCCA member, so I renewed! I think 90 % of the members there really want their club to flourish and survive through the changing times, I can't really say that I feel CASC cares if I'm a member or not, and I'm sure most long time members know what i mean.

But enough about that,moving on,

Self scrutineer in a series: great idea! Arek, we proposed that in GT Challenge, result - no! Why not? is it a control thing? what's wrong with posting the horsepower numbers of the competitors or showing everyone the dyno numbers? If one racer got pulled and he want over his power to weight and failed, I'm sure he will make dam sure he doesn't do it again, Transparency is a good thing! less finger pointing, sand bagging etc. This doesn't mean replace the regions scrutineer, but rather have a series scrutineer that works with the racers to self-police.

Funding to build a championship: Can be done! Like Justin Trudeau says, " the books will balance itself" seriously guys, why do we spend big dollars in videos and banquets, and other groups sharing the resources from road racing, ie; road race entry fees are $575, vs solo entry fees are $100? don't even want to ask what ice racing brings in! Road race money should be spent on promoting or subsidizing road racing not ice race, or solo/ time attack.

CSCS type events that draw: work with these types of venues to bring exposure to our region! The paddocks are half empty anyways by Sunday, why not host and share the track with them? The gate money alone will cover half the cost.

Promote it as a real series, with a real championship. Go after sponsors for a real championship incentive: need not say anymore here! if you want sponsors you need to give them some value, only way is a real championship, if you want tire companies to sponsor the series? give them spec tire, give them a return!

Run what you bring: why change it! But help the series like challenge and radical cup build their niche, instead of stone walling them. I think some people thought if challenge or Radical gained momentum it will make GT sprints go away!

One thing is for sure, times are changing, either change with them or become like the dinosaurs.

peace out!

DavidSim
08-12-2015, 09:32 PM
>>My guess is running a slower GT sprint car in a field where the fast GT1 and GT2 cars will be lapping you in short order at greatly differing speeds and driver skill would be one of the reasons why newcomers are harder to find.<<

At the last race at CTMP a week and change ago the GT Sprints field was split, GT1 and GT2 together, GT3 and GT4 and GT5 together. I think this worked out really well in my humble opinion (it was my first race ever, I was in the GT 3/4/5 group).

As a complete newbie, I am in learn mode, as I am sure many others are too; separating the pack I believe helps keep the speed differential down and assists those who may not be as quick in the corners as some of the faster drivers (I am currently in that category of being slower in the corners than some, of course, but I am working on it) avoid problems per se.

Where time permits in future races I hope that GT Sprints gets split again as such, including practice, qualifying, and the races.

KLZEMX6
08-13-2015, 12:14 PM
Here is my 2c on this whole issue, and I've said it before ... maybe this is a bit more focused.

1. GT Challenge tried to fix some of what we're talking about ... it was an attempt at a real series, with small number of classes. They accommodated car sharing, and ran on a single day (all good things). There are a couple problems that I see though.
2. There was a split in car counts between GT Sprints and GT Challenge. For this to work, there needs to be ONE sedan series in CASC. There is just not enough cars to fill more than one series
3. The classes need to accommodate all cars in the region, and do it somewhat competitively. GT Sprints is a run what you brung, and it accommodates everyone, at the expense of good competition and incentive to modify for a class.

So how to fix this? Again, my take on it ...

1. Scrap GT Sprints and GT Challenge and start over. Period. Take the best of both and create something totally new. The pain will be large, but it will be quick. Like a bandaid. Longer races, multi-driver, single day, team championship, etc. Whatever works best, use it.
2. Come up with a rule set that accommodates all cars, and promotes close competition. This is difficult, but not impossible ... I hinted at it earlier. Take the SoloSprint rules and adapt them, reduce classes to say 5 or even fewer, simplify some of the rules and fit them to a race car environment (not street cars). There is even automated classing software so no one needs to use their brain (I wrote it ... it's awesome, lol ;) ) In Solosprint, all cars are technically capable of winning the championship.
3. Promote it as a real series, with a real championship. Go after sponsors for a real championship incentive ... not a jug of oil or a t-shirt and hat, but something concrete. Even a small purse to cover the event entry fees. Can you imagine going to a race weekend, and racing for free? Would that not be a great incentive to make your car a class winner? We're talking maybe $3k in prize $ per weekend. Scrap the BBQ and use the money from that.
4. Let the competitors be the rule techs and police. If a car is way too fast for the class, let others examine it ... and if it's found illegal, then throw the book at them. Self policing is very effective ... no one want to be caught cheating by their competitors.

Just some ideas to toss around. If there is a will, there is a way ... but the will needs to be there, or this is all a moot point.

Bingo!

The above is something I'd try very hard to find the means to compete in if it existed.

Diddo!

KLZEMX6
08-13-2015, 12:17 PM
You folks seem to be assuming that the majority believe the current system is broken, I would suggest you may want to consider asking the active racers if they believe that to be true or not.

Just saying ...... !

If car counts are going down every year then the system is 100% BROKEN!

ScotcH
08-13-2015, 12:23 PM
If car counts are going down every year then the system is 100% BROKEN!

It's not that it's broken (maybe is it), it's just that it has to evolve with the changing conditions and demographics. I fully understand that GT Sprints and bracket racing served a purpose. But now it might be time to move on to something new.

DavidSim
08-13-2015, 04:06 PM
>>But now it might be time to move on to something new.<<

I would recommend that the racing community be asked first before assuming a wholesale change is required here in Ontario.

I have no problem (in general) with the way things are now, perhaps I am not alone.

KLZEMX6
08-13-2015, 04:21 PM
>>But now it might be time to move on to something new.<<

I would recommend that the racing community be asked first before assuming a wholesale change is required here in Ontario.

I have no problem (in general) with the way things are now, perhaps I am not alone.

Almost everyone I have ever talked to about racing in ontario ha absolutely no interest in wheel to wheel bracket racing...so maybe the hand full of people you have left are happy with it, but what about the rest that aren't currently racing because the format doesn't appeal to them?

abrracing
08-13-2015, 04:31 PM
Almost everyone I have ever talked to about racing in ontario ha absolutely no interest in wheel to wheel bracket racing...so maybe the hand full of people you have left are happy with it, but what about the rest that aren't currently racing because the format doesn't appeal to them?

Assuming that you are correct then what is the magic secret? CTCC in Ontario probably has about 20 cars, Chump has had 46 or so entries, Radical has about 18. None of this makes a business case at all. All the series above have prep rules instead of brackets and don't really attract more entries. I don't have the magic solution but any format doesn't really seem to attract any reasonable field of cars.

DavidSim
08-13-2015, 04:37 PM
>>>>But now it might be time to move on to something new.<<

Without Prejudice:

May I humbly suggest that perhaps it is time that "you" move on to something new (other than GT Sprints if that is your current issue/gripe).

Perhaps you have outgrown, or tired, of what is happening in Ontario with "bracket" racing, you appear to suggest there are other series elsewhere that are better, perhaps it is time you made the switch. I'd recommend you buy a new Honda engine Formula Ford and run with the A group, or a slick GT1 Howe Camaro, or buy a Formula 1200, or a Radical, first one to the flag wins, sounds right up your alley. There is plenty to keep you occupied in local racing other than GT Sprints.

Me, I like GT Sprints the way it is at this point, it gives every mortal a chance to have some fun and compete at the same time within a reasonable budget, that is what I bought in to, it works for me (and others it appears), leave it alone.

10-4

Steven Scala
08-13-2015, 04:58 PM
Assuming that you are correct then what is the magic secret? CTCC in Ontario probably has about 20 cars, Chump has had 46 or so entries, Radical has about 18. None of this makes a business case at all. All the series above have prep rules instead of brackets and don't really attract more entries. I don't have the magic solution but any format doesn't really seem to attract any reasonable field of cars.

What's 'reasonable?' An 18-Radical grid sounds pretty good to me, considering how closely matched the cars are.

I wouldn't expect every grid to be of the same size (considering the different levels of commitment and skill involved), but how many grids of what average size does a raceweekend need in order to fly, assuming that continued vendor/spectator non-engagement precludes a 'close enough' entrant level? 6 grids averaging 25? Fewer grids averaging more? What's the breakeven these days? 140ish cars? Or is it still around 120ish after the entryfee hike?

Oh and incidentally, Sam Ryan told me at BARC that our entryfees are still way reasonable compared to SCCA's, FWIW.

AlfaKen
08-13-2015, 05:41 PM
Since spectators were mentioned, I think most spectators prefer sprints. Anything longer makes it hard to keep track. As far as brackets go, when I'm watching I don't care if it says GT2 or GT4 on the car as long as they are dicing for position.
Watch BTTC on TV. 3 -15 minute races per weekend

Steven Scala
08-13-2015, 07:32 PM
Hm. If you look at the top of this picture, there is this thing...

http://www.speednik.com/files/2014/07/wdmp_140711_6284.jpg

Do we have live timing to mobile devices, too? I think AMB/Mylaps enables that, right? If so, this one's easier than ever.

Long live the 3hr!

metric1
08-13-2015, 07:53 PM
Steven, I think this pic is a little better....

10528

AlfaKen
08-13-2015, 08:14 PM
Not visible from turn 3. There was no Rogers cell reception early in the year. The little tower is back so Racehero was usable at the last race. That still doesn't address the cars getting strung out in a long race.

Steven Scala
08-13-2015, 08:18 PM
Steven, I think this pic is a little better...

I fully agree! Mad respect!

oblio125
08-13-2015, 08:42 PM
Ian, such respect it was on all night.

Steven Scala
08-13-2015, 08:50 PM
Ian, such respect it was on all night.

Thread rating upgraded to Excellent.

23Racer
08-13-2015, 10:52 PM
I love endurance races. I can hardly wait until September 12th. I just wish Ian would be out to blast past about every 30 laps.

Eric

ScotcH
08-13-2015, 11:50 PM
>>>>But now it might be time to move on to something new.<<

Without Prejudice:

May I humbly suggest that perhaps it is time that "you" move on to something new (other than GT Sprints if that is your current issue/gripe).

Perhaps you have outgrown, or tired, of what is happening in Ontario with "bracket" racing, you appear to suggest there are other series elsewhere that are better, perhaps it is time you made the switch. I'd recommend you buy a new Honda engine Formula Ford and run with the A group, or a slick GT1 Howe Camaro, or buy a Formula 1200, or a Radical, first one to the flag wins, sounds right up your alley. There is plenty to keep you occupied in local racing other than GT Sprints.

Me, I like GT Sprints the way it is at this point, it gives every mortal a chance to have some fun and compete at the same time within a reasonable budget, that is what I bought in to, it works for me (and others it appears), leave it alone.

10-4

David, I'm glad you enjoy the format. Maybe at some point you'll want more close competition, and we can discuss possibilities again. I actually run a team and we race in CTCC, but we come back to GT sprints every now and again, and unfortunately, it's hard to enjoy the format for me. That's fine, it's my problem. I'll stay away till someone fixes things to my liking. Like I said ... IF there is a will ... :rolleyes:

you're just starting out, right? ... stick around for a while. Put in some volunteer time ... help write a rule book ... organize some events ... sit on a club board of directors. It's all good for the sport :)

DavidSim
08-13-2015, 11:54 PM
Good post Arek, I wish you well.

Maverickflyer
08-14-2015, 02:27 AM
Here is my 2c on this whole issue, and I've said it before ... maybe this is a bit more focused.

1. GT Challenge tried to fix some of what we're talking about ... it was an attempt at a real series, with small number of classes. They accommodated car sharing, and ran on a single day (all good things). There are a couple problems that I see though.
2. There was a split in car counts between GT Sprints and GT Challenge. For this to work, there needs to be ONE sedan series in CASC. There is just not enough cars to fill more than one series
3. The classes need to accommodate all cars in the region, and do it somewhat competitively. GT Sprints is a run what you brung, and it accommodates everyone, at the expense of good competition and incentive to modify for a class.

So how to fix this? Again, my take on it ...

1. Scrap GT Sprints and GT Challenge and start over. Period. Take the best of both and create something totally new. The pain will be large, but it will be quick. Like a bandaid. Longer races, multi-driver, single day, team championship, etc. Whatever works best, use it.
2. Come up with a rule set that accommodates all cars, and promotes close competition. This is difficult, but not impossible ... I hinted at it earlier. Take the SoloSprint rules and adapt them, reduce classes to say 5 or even fewer, simplify some of the rules and fit them to a race car environment (not street cars). There is even automated classing software so no one needs to use their brain (I wrote it ... it's awesome, lol ;) ) In Solosprint, all cars are technically capable of winning the championship.
3. Promote it as a real series, with a real championship. Go after sponsors for a real championship incentive ... not a jug of oil or a t-shirt and hat, but something concrete. Even a small purse to cover the event entry fees. Can you imagine going to a race weekend, and racing for free? Would that not be a great incentive to make your car a class winner? We're talking maybe $3k in prize $ per weekend. Scrap the BBQ and use the money from that.
4. Let the competitors be the rule techs and police. If a car is way too fast for the class, let others examine it ... and if it's found illegal, then throw the book at them. Self policing is very effective ... no one want to be caught cheating by their competitors.

Just some ideas to toss around. If there is a will, there is a way ... but the will needs to be there, or this is all a moot point.

Well put Arek! I'm fairly new to W2W racing and I like the GT Challenge format the the same reasons you mentioned above. It feels like a real racing series, I like the longer races and one day is perfect for my schedule. I just wish it was promoted better and we had more cars out there. I have no desire to go do sprints for a variety of reasons. It seems people don't want change. They like the small field of cars, less competition. You can run in a slower class than the car is capable of, less driver focused. I want a series that the cars are classed based on performance and make the drivers win the race, not the bracket they choose to run in.

DavidSim
08-14-2015, 07:44 AM
>>I want a series that the cars are classed based on performance and make the drivers win the race, not the bracket they choose to run in<<

1. Formula Ford
2. Formula 1200
3. GT1 (in GT Sprints)
4. Radical

All available at your local Club Race here in Ontario.

racerguy19
08-14-2015, 10:13 AM
People talk about GT Sprints not having a goal for the series ie points. Do we not get points every race? For each individual class? and for overall? Is there not a champion in each class at the end of the year? Is there not an overall champion at the end of the year?? I would ask Nick Majors about his 3 Championships or Dylan Gibson about his.....were they not pushing as hard as their cars and they themselves could go? People talk about "sandbaggers" like it's every other person on the grid, when it's probably less than a couple percent in the whole GT Sprints field, and if that's what they want to do and feel good about, so be it. You will never weed them out.
People like myself and David Sim who have just started racing wouldn't even think of sandbagging! When you put this much time, effort and money into something you sure don't go at it half assed.
Like someone has already mentioned in this thread, numbers are down in Sprints and Challenge because there is more options and variety out there. If you counted up all the people who used to race Sprints before all the other types of racing came around you'd find you numbers.

Just 2 cents worth from a rookie.

Steve
GT Sprints
#54 GT5

shamrock
08-14-2015, 10:42 AM
What Arek said for starters. Re thinking at CASC needs to go outside the box with ideas like that. Time management at events needs to be looked at also. As an organizer, I was always under the gun scheduling wise. At one point not long ago I had to say no to two seperate classes of cars that wanted onto the schedule. With Radical and Challenge and Quebec series also interested there was just not enough time in the weekend. We don't need to have every class run every event. If there's 7 then stagger classes into 5 events each year. Even though class revenues would go down, class entries in the other classes would go up. Just another out of the box idea, this one to help the clubs maintain financial viability and provides better track time, less ingress and egress time, easier scheduling, and better safety by not cutting corners to get the day done.
These are the kind of ideas that need to be looked at. Argueing about splitting sprint fields and sandbagging won't solve anything. Bigger picture guys. Good posts coming in. Yay.

davedarrow
08-14-2015, 11:17 AM
You are correct Pat!

I hope CASC RACE and ORO are monitoring this thread, A lot of good ideas are floating around in this thread and the clubs need to look with eyes wide open at reinventing themselves before the bank account is empty.

Regional racing is no different than running a diner, if you don't have things on the menu that customers want , you have no more customers, Perhaps it's time to change up the menu clubs!

If Chump car is growing, host a Chump car race, If Time attack has huge grids, combine them with a race weekend that is under subscribed.

Hosting a race weekend has huge fixed costs that cannot be avoided, if grids are down 25% from the break even point Mospost isn't going to give ORO a 25% discount. The cost to rent a track for 1 day is 1/2 of the weekend rate, maybe with small grids a re-write of the rules and 1 day events is the future?

just throwing ideas out there

Steven Scala
08-14-2015, 11:28 AM
Pat, I ran into this in 2006 at a Formula Libre promotion meeting. I suggested cutting back the championship schedule in order to boost grids when we do run. One guy who hadn't run in six years blustered that if he showed up at a CASC weekend and couldn't run, he'd never race again. :rolleyes:

IMHO, there's no shame in a five or six-round championship. Likewise, I don't see a problem with non-championship rounds. In some cases, smaller grids at non-championship rounds could run with other groups.

Unrelated: I had a brainwave the other night: we should sell sponsorship for an Ontario Speed Trophy, scoring Time Attack and Road Race qualifying times together in the same competition. Inter-disciplinary awareness helps the region overall. Administering the award takes nothing but a bit of organization, the time for which could be covered by the sponsor fee, if said sponsor fee isn't redistributed away from covering its own actual value. (I hear we've had issues in this department. If it is, then I can see any new sponsorships or awards coming from independent third-parties in order to circumvent this issue. I'll start: if the 3hr podium is not locked out by FWD cars again this year, then I'll personally award a VTEC solenoid to the owner of the top-finishing RWD car. Maybe next year I'll have my own sponsor raise the stakes of that wager, and said sponsor will know what s/he's paying for.)

Boekdrukker
08-14-2015, 11:33 AM
Great discussion!

I think there are a number of issues at play here.

- We need to attract new blood
- Keep the existing / active base participating
- Adapt to the changing market.
- Find a way to effectively role out change thru Clubs / CASC

I feel that the current sprints formula is great for new drivers. There is no
better way to hook someone new then by winning a trophy (even at 400+HP
car in GT4) In my opinion we need to coordinate the efforts / schedule with
Solo 1, Solo 2 and Regional racing and develop a ladder system. Imagine if all
three events ran on the same weekend at the same location.

Being a sales guy at heart, if you want to grow your business you either grow
with the market (with current economic situation ,likely declining) or steal
share from your competition. I believe if Regional racing is going to turn
around, we will need to start stealing share from competing series
by developing a formula / rules package that aligns with a series(s)) to
attract Participants and market directly to them. eg. Maybe GT Chalenge
needs a Chumpish Class,...

I have raced regional for many years and have seen the flow participants
entering and leave Regional Racing, I one angle to keep drivers longer in
our circle we need to offer away for participants a way to move up the ranks.
The GT Challenge and Radical Series,... were / are great avenues that should
be further developed and supported. We need to find a way to elevate certain
series as a Premium event. (When I first started, Ontario Challenge Cup was
a feeder series to Canada Challenge Cup)

With the changing market maybe (and I don't know for sure) we need to
diversify our weekend activities include Solo Events, Driving School,RC Car
Racing, Car Show,.. To make this successful we need to also market it,
maybe CASC can become a Forum sponsor on some of the Car related forums...

As a CASC customer I have not been involved with the backend operations,
however as an outside observer, it appears that change is very difficult to
execute. Our competition is able to move and adapt more quickly...

23Racer
08-14-2015, 11:33 AM
Steve/ Mike, I completely agree.

All I hope is that I can get the RX7 in as one of the class podium winners just so that I can get one of those sweet VTEC solenoids. I will bolt it on the Coug for some monster VTEC powah!!!!!!

However I truly just want to come out an spank your butt....

Eric

(Trash talk, the basis of motorsports for 100 years.)

davedarrow
08-14-2015, 11:47 AM
Mr Boekdrukker you hit the nail on the head!

I think the race workshop this fall should have only one item on it,

Open forum as to how regional racing must change to keep who's left and integrate other forms of motorsport into regional weekends to balance the books.

Time to cut the cord? Money brought in by regional race is there for regional and the other groups have to fend for themselves?

If a sponsor wants to throw 25K at a series like GT Challenge shouldn't every dime go to where the sponsor intended it to go?

just sayin

ROTARY ROCKET
08-14-2015, 01:14 PM
Mr Boekdrukker you hit the nail on the head!

I think the race workshop this fall should have only one item on it,

Open forum as to how regional racing must change to keep who's left and integrate other forms of motorsport into regional weekends to balance the books.

Time to cut the cord? Money brought in by regional race is there for regional and the other groups have to fend for themselves?

If a sponsor wants to throw 25K at a series like GT Challenge shouldn't every dime go to where the sponsor intended it to go?

just sayin

Dave:

These are some of the key issues, and as past sponsor to the series, this was a very important one for me, FF1600, solo-time attack, etc, all have control over their sponsorship dollars, which would not be the case for sprints, challenge and Radical.

The Vancouver region, used to have a multi club system like ours, guess what, that did not work, the same thing that is happening here now went on their. Clubs were losing ( bleeding) money at events, car counts were down, too late for change and when the dust settled, one club was formed, which is now the SCCBC -Sports Car Club of British Columbia.

I'm not going to say or assume the powers to be don't care for change, the future is in their hands. Haven't seen any post from the establishment though?

There are a lot of good ideas here, I hope we can be empowered and not fear change. I think I have said enough, want to keep it positive. Signing off.

TheJuggernaut
08-14-2015, 01:25 PM
Mike, the best ladder system in my opinion can be seen in the marque specific car clubs. Every year, several convert from HPDEs to club racing and their fields are always strong. Maybe CASC can look into organizing their own HPDEs with a race or two spliced into the weekend? It'll sure make it easier to split up the cost and it gives newcomers a natural progression and trivial exposure (interested in what you saw? go down to the guy's trailer and ask)

Steven Scala
08-14-2015, 01:33 PM
All I hope is that I can get the RX7 in as one of the class podium winners just so that I can get one of those sweet VTEC solenoids. I will bolt it on the Coug for some monster VTEC powah!!!!!!

Oh I'm talking overall, Eric. My cronies and I don't speak bracket. FWD did it last year...

However I truly just want to come out an spank your butt...

Eric

(Trash talk, the basis of motorsports for 100 years.)

Heck yes, we need more of that!

shamrock
08-14-2015, 02:06 PM
How about this one. A stretch right now for logistics and non profit issues but really we (all of us) need to take a big picture ( there it is again) look at this. F1600, varac, and even to an extent Challenge have their own gig going basically and loosely. So where am I going with this? CASC needs to step back in their overall organization of everything. Kinda like more hands off and more overall governing. Why can't all the series running including sprints have their own management team? At each event they apply to the track (club) running the event. The Club ( who knows what finances it takes to not run in the red), sets the price for that series to run. The series managers collect the race fees from the competitors and the clubs pay the track. This is what semi pro series like CCTC do. The advantages of this is it creates competition in pricing, way better management of track time at events, ability for independent class sponsorships that create even lower costs to classes, and allows CASC to get on with what they are supposed to do, the overall government of Ontario racing. Everyone wins. Outside the box folks. We have to get over this non profit way of doing things. It will still be non profit and CASC can control that through policy.

I've ran two non profit motorsports clubs ( and rather successfully). It's time gentlemen to consider some of these options.

nbrigido
08-15-2015, 08:29 AM
I don't usually chime in on these, at a lot of this is all personal opinion, but right now we need to work with everyone's opinion and come up with an actions plan.

Working and Racing with the F1200 we have gone through our highs and lows, this year we have seen growth with the Challenge Cup Series, but at the same time the consistency is not there. Our biggest challenge is where is the next driver coming from?

Seems to be a perception that everyone races forever and everyone attends each event. Just not the case.

Next is who is our next driver, where are we marketing ourselves. Everyone new into our series says the same thing, very difficult to get information about racing in Ontario and how to get into it. We used to be all about the Karter, out of Karts into F1200, the on and on. Politics in Karts will now do anything to ensure the Karter stays Karting until they are 60..

We are facing a lot of the same challenges SCCA is, we are working with FV/F1200 to address some of these as well. COST! racing in not cheap, it is our job to keep it as cost effective as possible to ensure the drivers feel there is value for the money spent.

as part of the F1200, we understand that we will lose drivers to F1600, and F2000, that is part of the game, part of the ladder..

to keep it short an sum it up.

We need to expose ourselves, so people know we exist.
We need to promote ourselves,
We need to attract new blood
We need to find ways to bring cars out of garages.

Now the questions become, Who, When, Where and HOW...

Great Videos, but I see them all the time, live at the track. How do we get them into the right hands.

I will give credit where credit is due.. Robert has done a tremendous job growing Radical Series, and Jason Growing the F1600.

Nick Majors
08-15-2015, 10:13 AM
(Here I go again . . . :eek:)

For those who don't know me - I am a long time racer - now retired after about 20 years. I participated (sometimes obsessively) with Solosprint, Autoslalom, BMW Club, Ice Racing and even Import Drag Racing - before settling into CASC Road Racing.

Enjoyed modest succes and several championships at the regional level. Played at a few pro or semi-pro events - but just didn't really have the talent it takes at that level (never did scare Ron Fellows - but was pretty good at staying out of his way - :o). I may be best known on the track for my success with Darth Viper (Black Competition Coupe) and in an IMSA Lites Sports Racer.

Through my company - I sponsored several individual racers and series - including title sponsorships in Solosprint, the Sentra series, PITL, Ice Racing, etc. (Not to mention a personal sponsorship deal with Paul Tracy through 97/98 - and we were a corporate sponsor of the 1998 Toronto Molson Indy)

Over the years, I have been an active or supportive member of TAC, OMSC, BARC, BEMC, BMWCC, DAC & MCO and have served as both a VP of CASC-OR and the Regional Race Director as well as working many events (summer & winter) as a Race Steward.

Those who do know me (both fans & critics) should agree that I have spent more time, effort and money on this sport than most.

==========

There are some very good and valid ideas being discussed in this thread - but I would like to stress one very important but often overlooked point:

PLEASE : Don't ever change, drop - or - mess with (change the class structure) - of the "GT Sprints" or "Formula Libre" groups!

They are the way they are - for a reason.

A typical regional race weekend currently includes all or most the following groups or classes

GT Sprints
Formula Libre
GT Challenge
Vintage Historic (Varac class)
G70/90 (Varac class)
F1200
F1600
F4 (currently runs inside F-Libre)
Radical (formerly run inside F-Libre)
Lubrico V8 (within Sprints)
(F2000 - sometimes ?)

CASC-OR and most Club Race Organizers have always tried - and hopefully will always continue - to include the first 2 groups (Sprints & Libre) in every race weekend calender (no matter how small their numbers or field).

So long as those 2 classes exist - and so long as we leave them "Open Spec" - with minimal class rules (other than tech/safety/equipment inspection) - EVEYONE WHO COMES OUT (or ever plans to come out) - has a place to run.

So sure, everyone is not competitive, and yes - some sandbaggers (or maybe big money guys :D) - might do whatever it takes to win (fair or not) - but . . . it truly maintains "Run What You Brung" and allows everyone in - regardless of car prep, experience level or lap times.

So - I encourage all of you to continue searching for ways to improve and make things better - but do so by creating or changing other classes - not the two main stays.

It's been tried a few times before - Sentra Series (2001-2004) - CASC BMW / Marquis Class (2002-2003)- Touring Car (2003-2005) - GT Challenge (Current) - but as those groups come and go - we should do everything we can to preserve the backbone that allows and encourages everyone to come out and learn, participate, and hopefully advance their cars, skills, friendships and enjoyment.

I continue to believe that Regional Racing should be about "Inclusion" - not - "Exclusion".

Nick

DavidSim
08-15-2015, 10:40 AM
>>PLEASE : Don't ever change, drop - or - mess with (change the class structure) - of the "GT Sprints" or "Formula Libre" groups!<<

Amen Brother !

I will be 65 years old on my next birthday, I am retired (but work on contract when the opportunity arises), I have always wanted to Road Race but family and career always came first.

Now that I have the time and resources to do some things before I cash in my chips I have taken up Road Racing, the last race at CTMP a few weeks ago was my first ever Road Race, I liked it and plan to continue primarily for the fun of it.

The only reason I started Road Racing was because of the GT Sprints class, THE ONLY REASON; GT Sprints allows guys like me a wide range of options to get involved without a lot of hassle. Nick is dead on when it comes to my motivation and participation, so long as GT Sprints exists then I will be eager to get out on the track and give it a go (with some understanding hopefully from other competitors as I learn the ropes and develop my skills).

GT Sprints works best for me.

Simple as that.

davedarrow
08-15-2015, 10:52 AM
Hey Nick I agree with you about the 2 core classes and a place to race with whatever kind of car you have.

Thinking out loud again here,

Perhaps a few changes in the GT Sprints rules?

A loose version of SCCA rules without the serious policing?

V8 cars are a points group

6 cylinder cars a points group

4 cylinder cars a points group

No trophies at regional weekends- points every race-Saves clubs a fortune on trophies

Here's a thought

IROC style-first race of the day results= reverse starting order of second race of the day and some averaged points system for the weekend.

If a car is going way slower than it's capable of-black flag it and ask the driver what's wrong with his car-do that a couple times and sand bagging will be a thing of the past-We are RACING after all-Look it up in the dictionary-the term driving slow isn't there.

As Darwin would say "Evolve or die off"

ScotcH
08-15-2015, 11:08 AM
Nick, with respect: Statements such as "PLEASE : Don't ever change, drop - or - mess with (change the class structure) - of the "GT Sprints" or "Formula Libre" groups!" are exactly the point we're trying to make that that there needs to be a will to change from within the organization. As long as ultimatums like that exist, there is no point in even discussing anything.

As long as that mentality exists, nothing will be done, because no amount of input or constructive criticism will be taken seriously under consideration ... just like when the dinosaurs became extinct, they could do nothing about it. It's mental blinders, and it does nothing to encourage forward thinking.

Are you guys honestly suggesting that a bracket system is the ONLY system that can be inclusive and cater to the run anything crowd? Seriously? That's total horseshit. With some innovation and hard work, a rule set that is simple and inclusive can certainly be devised. And even if it's not perfect for 100% of the drivers, it can't possible be any worse!

David: You're saying it works for you. WHAT works for you? The fact that it's a bracket system, or the fact that you have a place to race? Can you tell me honestly that you would not come out and race if there were actual rules in the series? Since you don't seem to give a shit about the competition aspect, why do you care what class your car would be in anyway? There certainly would not be a rule saying "V8 stock car looking things need not apply", so why the resistance to trying something different? If you don't care, than fine ... don't participate in the re-invention. You've made your point. Just show up at the races as usual. No problem, right? You'll still race against the same cars, and the same people. But there just might be more of them, and there just might be more incentive to do better. Yay!

davedarrow
08-15-2015, 11:23 AM
We have a place to race-that's not the problem

The problem is racing entries are down 25 to 30%

Do you own a business?

I do and to see sales down 25 to 30% you either change your business model or go out of business.

Racers are your customers in CASC, you only have 75 to 80 left, the ones that are gone are not coming back-these are hard facts.

The business model must change to survive.

With only 75 customers radical changes must happen now or the closed sign is being nailed to the door.

Any of my ideas-good or bad- are only ideas I'm throwing out there to keep the remaining customers coming back to the track.

I've cared about racing for 40 years, I love the sport, I raced and my business sells parts to this industry.

DavidSim
08-15-2015, 11:31 AM
>>David: You're saying it works for you. WHAT works for you? The fact that it's a bracket system, or the fact that you have a place to race?<<

Both of those things work for me.

>>Can you tell me honestly that you would not come out and race if there were actual rules in the series?<<

More rules make things more complicated, and usually more expensive; I prescribe to the KISS method.

>>Since you don't seem to give a shit about the competition aspect, why do you care what class your car would be in anyway?<<

I pay my money and hit the track like everyone else, I am also an adult and can decide what works best for me, what I think and care about is my own business, last I checked Canada is a free Country.

I like GT Sprints the way it is, it is simple in format, affords almost anyone with any suitable fendered/caged vehicle the ability to participate, at a price most of us mortals can afford.

I also like the people involved in racing, and calling some my friend, I like the camaraderie that goes with it, in fact some of the nicest people I have ever met are involved in racing and that has been a big plus for me and my family.

>>There certainly would not be a rule saying "V8 stock car looking things need not apply", so why the resistance to trying something different?<<

Because Arek, I do not consider GT Sprints to be broken and requiring major surgery, capiche ???

>>If you don't care, than fine ... don't participate in the re-invention. You've made your point.<<

GT Sprints does not need any re-invention in my opinion, it suits me just fine, if you want to create a new class with new rules then fill your boots, I wish you well.

>>Just show up at the races as usual. No problem, right? You'll still race against the same cars, and the same people.<<

Sounds good to me, that is exactly what I plan to do.

>>But there just might be more of them, and there just might be more incentive to do better. Yay!<<

I am happy with GT Sprints as it is, I am not one who thinks it needs a wholesale revamp as you appear to assume.

Perhaps you should poll all the active competitors and ask what their major concerns are (e.g. financial, categories, etc.), if the majority agree with you then proceed to change things, in the meantime I just want to hit the track with a bunch of other great, like minded, people, and have some fun.

Simple as that.

Kcodekid
08-15-2015, 11:36 AM
Nick, with respect: Statements such as "PLEASE : Don't ever change, drop - or - mess with (change the class structure) - of the "GT Sprints" or "Formula Libre" groups!" are exactly the point we're trying to make that that there needs to be a will to change from within the organization. As long as ultimatums like that exist, there is no point in even discussing anything.

As long as that mentality exists, nothing will be done, because no amount of input or constructive criticism will be taken seriously under consideration ... just like when the dinosaurs became extinct, they could do nothing about it. It's mental blinders, and it does nothing to encourage forward thinking.

Are you guys honestly suggesting that a bracket system is the ONLY system that can be inclusive and cater to the run anything crowd? Seriously? That's total horseshit. With some innovation and hard work, a rule set that is simple and inclusive can certainly be devised. And even if it's not perfect for 100% of the drivers, it can't possible be any worse!

David: You're saying it works for you. WHAT works for you? The fact that it's a bracket system, or the fact that you have a place to race? Can you tell me honestly that you would not come out and race if there were actual rules in the series? Since you don't seem to give a shit about the competition aspect, why do you care what class your car would be in anyway? There certainly would not be a rule saying "V8 stock car looking things need not apply", so why the resistance to trying something different? If you don't care, than fine ... don't participate in the re-invention. You've made your point. Just show up at the races as usual. No problem, right? You'll still race against the same cars, and the same people. But there just might be more of them, and there just might be more incentive to do better. Yay!

Arek please tell me your response to my post from a few pages ago


Ok you guys are talking about ways to include all levels of cars and rule set for same .Are you truly taking all cars into account ?or are you just trying to equalize all cars?
I am all for anything that helps w2w racing but I race a 700+hp GT1 car that weighs 2500+ wet with driver and by the last gt challenge formula I would need to weigh 3900 which if I wanted o prep my car for a class I would basically have to start from scratch which is not viable for anyone

DavidSim
08-15-2015, 11:45 AM
Arek,

if you were to ask me what I would recommend to get more people in to Road Racing, here are some things I would suggest:

1. Drop GT Challenge altogether

2. Use the extra time available to:

a. Run GT3/4 cars on their own (to get these cars away from the GT1/2 cars), run GT1/2 cars on their own, just like what was done at the last CTMP race a few weeks ago.

b. Run GT5 cars separately, let them on the track by themselves; gosh I would even consider getting one if this happened, it could be a real great opportunity for beginners, and a lot of fun for everyone else involved. Maybe give them a break on entry fees, if possible, to encourage participation.

That is all.

10-4

nbrigido
08-15-2015, 11:48 AM
We have a place to race-that's not the problem

The problem is racing entries are down 25 to 30%

Do you own a business?

I do and to see sales down 25 to 30% you either change your business model or go out of business.

Racers are your customers in CASC, you only have 75 to 80 left, the ones that are gone are not coming back-these are hard facts.

The business model must change to survive.

With only 75 customers radical changes must happen now or the closed sign is being nailed to the door.

Any of my ideas-good or bad- are only ideas I'm throwing out there to keep the remaining customers coming back to the track.

I've cared about racing for 40 years, I love the sport, I raced and my business sells parts to this industry.

BINGO!!

Unless we find a away to Bring in NEW drivers or bring OLD drivers back the track we will not survive. Tracks like Mosport will....

Costs are going up! not much we can do about most of them, but where we can we need to find ways to control them.

If drivers cannot afford to attend events, they numbers drop, the level of competition drops, the fee's will go up, more drivers will not attend.

The question becomes How do we get more cars to the track...everyone is going to have a different opinion, but the sum of those opinions have to be acted upon. Someone will look like the "Bad" guy..

Below is the MIXED racing from POCONO last weekend. if is a total mix of cars. That very few want to compete in. The Challenge Cup which is following the Canadian Rule set for FV, has grown enough to have it's own track time. which causes it to grow even larger month by month. Our rule set in F1200, that was modeled in the series, was the "Cost Control" measure that was missing, which brought drivers out, inturn getting our own track times at events that would not provide it. IF you notice, FV still had group 9 for those running SCCA Spec. Mixed with a lot faster cars. It was alot of work by a bunch of guys, but less than 9 months later we are seeing results


Race Groups (classes that are underlined are ellgible for a NEDiv Championship)
Group 1GTl/2/3/A, Jili Tl/2. SPO, STO
Group 2ITA/B/R/S. SMS. SRX7
Group 3 SRF. SR
Group 4 Ill:, SSM. H, JE, B Spec, SM2
Group 5 FVee Challenge
Group 6 FA/B/C/E/M/S, CFC, Pl/2, gVS2, HS2,ASR
Group 7 SM, SMT
Group 8 Il,f[Z, SPU,STU,E/F/H Prod, LC, GTP,GTL
Group 9 ff, F5/6,Bl,FV, FST, CF

ScotcH
08-15-2015, 12:15 PM
Arek please tell me your response to my post from a few pages ago


Ok you guys are talking about ways to include all levels of cars and rule set for same .Are you truly taking all cars into account ?or are you just trying to equalize all cars?
I am all for anything that helps w2w racing but I race a 700+hp GT1 car that weighs 2500+ wet with driver and by the last gt challenge formula I would need to weigh 3900 which if I wanted o prep my car for a class I would basically have to start from scratch which is not viable for anyone

I am absolutely not suggesting any such thing ... GT Challenge has a certain method of trying to equalize cars. It did not work for you (and many others). Of course I realize you cannot equalize GT1 with GT5 cars. But you can equalize them within the classes ... and come up with a point system that works toward an overall championship.

You guys are missing the point. I'm not suggesting scrapping GT Sprints ... just revamping the rules so that there is more actual competition within classes! There are other things that need doing to promote the sport and make it more attractive ... folks have brought up some great ideas. Listen to them. But on-track competition is the ultimate goal of a race series. Make it fun to compete in (ie, you actually race with other cars near you), and "the series will fix itself" to borrow a totally out of context statement.

ScotcH
08-15-2015, 12:21 PM
Arek,

if you were to ask me what I would recommend to get more people in to Road Racing, here are some things I would suggest:

1. Drop GT Challenge altogether

2. Use the extra time available to:

a. Run GT3/4 cars on their own (to get these cars away from the GT1/2 cars), run GT1/2 cars on their own, just like what was done at the last CTMP race a few weeks ago.

b. Create a class for GT5 cars only, let them on the track by themselves, gosh I would even consider getting one, it could be a real great opportunity for beginners, and a lot of fun for everyone else involved.

That is all.

10-4

David ... awesome input! All those points are valid. I agree ... there needs to be only 1 sedan/touring type series in CASC. We can even call is hmmm, I dunno ... "GT Sprints" maybe. Now just add class rules the promote close competition, and you really have something!

davedarrow
08-15-2015, 12:28 PM
Yup!!

Like it or not SCCA is in the same mess and they are being proactive to keep the business going.

It's simple math, clubs are not a bottomless bank account and 75 cars= 1 day events next year or no events.

Who out there can hemorrhage $15,000 to $30,000 every race weekend?

CASC can't, the clubs can't and won't.

75 cars =$800.00 entry fee next year.

If you want 2 day events next year you need the current drivers and 50 more guaranteed racers showing up at every event next season.

Is there 125 racers in Ontario that are willing to write 6 to 8 non refundable cheques to go racing next season? Doubt it!

Is there 125 people that want to prove me wrong? Show up at the race workshop with your cheques.


I run my business the same way-want a special made part-deposit and it's non returnable if you don't like it.

Sponsorship next year-forget it. A sponsor wants presence and bang for the buck.

A weekend of almost empty track time is not bang for the buck.

Once again hard facts.

Kcodekid
08-15-2015, 12:38 PM
Arek,

if you were to ask me what I would recommend to get more people in to Road Racing, here are some things I would suggest:

1. Drop GT Challenge altogether

2. Use the extra time available to:

a. Run GT3/4 cars on their own (to get these cars away from the GT1/2 cars), run GT1/2 cars on their own, just like what was done at the last CTMP race a few weeks ago.

b. Create a class for GT5 cars only, let them on the track by themselves, gosh I would even consider getting one, it could be a real great opportunity for beginners, and a lot of fun for everyone else involved.

That is all.

10-4
David I agree with your take on Gt challenge but splitting Sprints fields is a problem .I think we need to split Sprints qualifying but I believe the races should be combined as I have raced in split fields with 15 cars and you get lots of open track but you can't really work on race craft.From my start in regional racing I have heard a lot about closing speed with slower classes and have experienced problems myself when someone I am passing just freezes when they see me coming but unless we give all classes a chance to learn and become more comfortable with each other on the track it will always be a problem.And from what I have heard from other drivers and spectators it is more fun to drive and watch when we have more cars on track at once

davedarrow
08-15-2015, 12:39 PM
The people on this thread arguing about GT or no GT are missing the point!

75 cars can not support racing the way it is-I don't care what grid you are in.

Who wants to pay $800 or $900 a race next year, and if the club doesn't get the $60k needed to open the gate the event is cancelled???

This is the issue.

Reinvent racing for next season or there is going to be a lot of race cars collecting dust in garages or doing lapping days or Chump Car.

Mosport can rent out the track every day from spring thaw to the first snow fall.

If CASC and regional racing is gone next year Mosport will still have a fully rented track and a bank account full of money.

davedarrow
08-15-2015, 01:27 PM
But wait there's more.

Sprints and Libre are the only 2 must have grids at a race weekend.

GT Challenge for what ever reason has been made to go away. 5 or 6 ex GT Challenge guys are now pro racing in the States-GT Challenge was a great stepping stone series to prep for big time racing.

All the other groups are invited.

F1200
F1600
F2000
Varac
Radical

These groups pick and choose where they want to race.

There is more than enough racing dates in Ontario and Quebec and the bordering States that they can have a very full and exciting race season and never appear at a CASC regional event.

So what's left?

Some of the sprints cars probably fit some sort of race series somewhere and there's a few libre cars that are spec series cars and could play elsewhere.

Bottom line?

All that are left racing must get together and figure out how to keep racing alive.

It's on life support right now and arguing isn't keeping the patient alive my friends.

shamrock
08-15-2015, 01:31 PM
The thread keeps gravitating back to people's personal agendas. There's 20 different reasons to split sprint fields...or not. I like both. IF TIME ALLOWS ( and most times it doesn't). I like to be sitting on the front row in GT4. I also like running in fields of 44 cars. It's fun. None of that matters yet. Larger change must come first beginning at the top down, examining and implementing wholesale changes to the business model and what we do. Spitting on a large fire doesn't work. Good post Dave.

davedarrow
08-15-2015, 01:50 PM
Thanks Pat!

Some people here know what the real issue is!

Devil's advocate time:

Clubs could have a floating entry fee.

Simple-it's 60K to host a weekend

Everyone who wants to go to a event gives their credit card #

If 200 cars show up

60K/200cars=$300 entry

If 75 cars show up

60K/75 cars=$800 entry

If 2 cars show up..you get the point.

Clubs host races to break even-not run in the red.

Get together everyone and come up with a solution that makes fiscal sense or find another hobby.

Everyone here being pissy about this grid or that grid or this rule set or that rule set is not solving the problem.

Doug P
08-15-2015, 02:01 PM
Math 101

Last year we had 5 events. Say 140 entries per event. 700 entries.

This year we have 8 events. 700 entries over 8 events is 87.5 entries/event.

We seem to be getting about 90 out.

Hmmmm

Kcodekid
08-15-2015, 02:07 PM
Math 101

Last year we had 5 events. Say 140 entries per event. 700 entries.

This year we have 8 events. 700 entries over 8 events is 87.5 entries/event.

We seem to be getting about 90 out.

Hmmmm

Thank You Doug

shamrock
08-15-2015, 02:23 PM
Going one step further, lets say it takes 80K to put on an event. You have 10 car classes and 10 class business reps who's job is to get people out to race. 8K per class is break even. If each rep gets 20 entries, the event is more than covered, CASC doesn't have to administrate that , they can do what their supposed to do, govern, the money goes to the hosting club, and it's a done deal.
Now , if you do the math, the race entry fee could be as low as $400.00 or you could charge the $500 dollar going rate, split the profits between the club and the class reps, and everyone wins. The class reps can be compensated for their time or they can dump the money into the class for whatever. It also creates competition between classes with incentives to garner sponsorships, create ideas, share, etc etc. Each victory in those regards makes racing more fun, less rules squabbling, and cheaper maybe.
That's a loosely said perfect design model and there's always downsides to that but you get the picture of what can be. Ideas like this is what we need to maintain and grow our financial health, viability, and growth.

Kcodekid
08-15-2015, 02:29 PM
Going one step further, lets say it takes 80K to put on an event. You have 10 car classes and 10 class business reps who's job is to get people out to race. 8K per class is break even. If each rep gets 20 entries, the event is more than covered, CASC doesn't have to administrate that , they can do what their supposed to do, govern, the money goes to the hosting club, and it's a done deal.
Now , if you do the math, the race entry fee could be as low as $400.00 or you could charge the $500 dollar going rate, split the profits between the club and the class reps, and everyone wins. The class reps can be compensated for their time or they can dump the money into the class for whatever. It also creates competition between classes with incentives to garner sponsorships, create ideas, share, etc etc. Each victory in those regards makes racing more fun, less rules squabbling, and cheaper maybe.
That's a loosely said perfect design model and there's always downsides to that but you get the picture of what can be. Ideas like this is what we need to maintain and grow our financial health, viability, and growth.

I can not see that entry fees are the problem

shamrock
08-15-2015, 02:41 PM
:rolleyes:

nbrigido
08-15-2015, 03:20 PM
Going one step further, lets say it takes 80K to put on an event. You have 10 car classes and 10 class business reps who's job is to get people out to race. 8K per class is break even. If each rep gets 20 entries, the event is more than covered, CASC doesn't have to administrate that , they can do what their supposed to do, govern, the money goes to the hosting club, and it's a done deal.
Now , if you do the math, the race entry fee could be as low as $400.00 or you could charge the $500 dollar going rate, split the profits between the club and the class reps, and everyone wins. The class reps can be compensated for their time or they can dump the money into the class for whatever. It also creates competition between classes with incentives to garner sponsorships, create ideas, share, etc etc. Each victory in those regards makes racing more fun, less rules squabbling, and cheaper maybe.
That's a loosely said perfect design model and there's always downsides to that but you get the picture of what can be. Ideas like this is what we need to maintain and grow our financial health, viability, and growth.

The minute organizer can start to do this...the CASC is DEAD! and so are the clubs. if they have enough support, especially amongst each other, they will begin to organize their own events and put on the show...Look south of us. It is happening there.

nbrigido
08-15-2015, 03:23 PM
I can not see that entry fees are the problem

No of us can really control the entry fee's. As cost go up so will the fee's. We are still less than US majors (I Think they are 585$ per event). But they will have an effect on many drivers, that will pick and choose certain events.

Kcodekid
08-15-2015, 03:47 PM
No of us can really control the entry fee's. As cost go up so will the fee's. We are still less than US majors (I Think they are 585$ per event). But they will have an effect on many drivers, that will pick and choose certain events.

No argument but what I don't see is how entry fees drive someone's decision to attend an event as it is the cheapest part of the weekend.My tires still cost $2500 a set and fuel is a thousand dollars.Now if there was a way to offset those expenses such as contingency programs that ALL racers can participate in .And prize money would help.

nbrigido
08-15-2015, 05:08 PM
No argument but what I don't see is how entry fees drive someone's decision to attend an event as it is the cheapest part of the weekend.My tires still cost $2500 a set and fuel is a thousand dollars.Now if there was a way to offset those expenses such as contingency programs that ALL racers can participate in .And prize money would help.

I am looking at road racing as a whole (Open and Closed wheel).

Should your tires cost you $2500 a set and could they last you longer, should everyone be on the same tire.

Just a question, not starting the debate......

Speaking for F1200, there are more cars in Ontario than there has ever been in history. Most of them are taking up garage space, entry fee is the single biggest expense.

Is there contingency programs available? we probably, but you would need the buy in from EVERYONE in the group, and you would need to approach the proper sponsor that would benefit from the series and the info that is being put out.

But then again, what are WE putting out there for our sponsors, where is the Social Media Blitz regarding the next event, This is a big wheel and it will take the dedication and organization of a lot of people to make it work (that's where it usually falls apart).

nbrigido
08-15-2015, 05:10 PM
No argument but what I don't see is how entry fees drive someone's decision to attend an event as it is the cheapest part of the weekend.My tires still cost $2500 a set and fuel is a thousand dollars.Now if there was a way to offset those expenses such as contingency programs that ALL racers can participate in .And prize money would help.

We also need the critical mass to do this. Again, if we could get 150 cars on the track, there would be a fair amount of gravy to hand out at each event.

Let's face it, winning $250 at a regional event is like winning the F1 Title:D

if we can get the cars to the track everything else becomes easier. easier to sell a functioning package.

nbrigido
08-15-2015, 05:34 PM
When tobacco money was availabe Canada was producing some of the best race car drivers in the world. Let's race it this is a game of $$.

IMO there is a lot we are doing wrong...but at the same time a lot more we are doing right! if we get together on one common plan and drop the politics this can succeed.

To put it out there.

This year we offered too many race weekends, which allowed to series to pick and choose leaving important holes. The first MCO event in May is proof.

Each series need to understand how to market itself in the food chain of CASC and work with the other series at one common goal.

How do we build cost controls into each series?

We need sponsors that bring value to the "customer" at the same time we need to bring value to the sponsor. This is regional racing, not F1.

We need to attract new drivers

We need to get cars out of garages onto the track.

We need to market. promote events...

We need to reward the customer.

Honestly, i think we also need a national champion, we need our own run-offs. Something with all the hype, and a pre-requisite program to be able to attend (based on entries, not performance). Something that will draw drivers not just Ontario but other regions and the USA. Again, great Sponsorship opportunity if done right.

Now how do we start...

Nick Majors
08-15-2015, 06:28 PM
Now how do we start...

Our structure - is club based. Every racer is the member of a club. And that's where you start. You are not a member of CASC - your club is. And the clubs jointly elect CASC-OR directors & officers.

The Race Organizing Clubs - that host and run events currently - are BEMC, BARC, DAC & MCO (and VARAC). Each club has a Race Director - and whether they have separate race meetings or just regular club meetings - they are the ones that you need to contact and make your thoughts and ideas known to (while volunteering your time, support & participation to back up those ideas)

For those brave souls who have a lot of time to give - you may consider volunteering your services to the Region's Race Director as a Driver's Rep or get more active with your series if it has a steering committee.

Whatever you try to do - you have to understand that you will be working with many other people (some of who have been volunteering for decades) - and if you want to be listened to - you have to accommodate some of their ideas and views as well as promoting your own. You don't do it by demanding or trying to impose your personal views and agenda on everyone.

Trust me - finding consensus is not an easy task. Ideas are frequent (they just take a few forum posts), but agreement and people to implement are much harder to find.

(Once again - I personally am no longer involved at either the club or CASC-OR level)

Ken Robins
08-15-2015, 07:55 PM
Big bore

Small bore.

Over xx litres Under xx litres. Simple Ya ?

You will never please all the people all the time.

Entries down ? No wonder. Too many procrastinators.

DavidSim
08-15-2015, 08:34 PM
>>Big bore, Small bore, Over xx litres Under xx litres. Simple Ya ?<<

And expensive no doubt, money would become a big factor if the rules were this simple.

Bracket racing saved Drag Racing many decades ago, even today brackets are big from a participation standpoint at local and national events (while the pro ranks of T/F, F/C, PS, and PSB struggle to fill 16 spots at many National events). I could never afford to buy and run a PSB at a National event, but I was able to afford to buy a used one for bracket racing.

Brackets in Road Racing at the local level are no different, in my opinion, it allows us mere mortals to afford and run a car without having to spend a fortune to keep up with the Joneses.

Zimm
08-15-2015, 10:57 PM
Honestly, don't understand why people have a problem with "brackets" - almost spitting it out as if it's a filthy phrase.

I'll be running my Civic in GT4 specifically because of the time brackets. I have no interest in car classifications, BoP, PAX, etc. My admittedly jaded view comes from memories of spending 4 to 5 hours in impound after Enduroseries and Motorola Cup races years ago. Only getting released when the officials decided they wanted to go home at 9 or 10pm. And we had a race to prepare for next morning.

All that impound time did nothing to equalize cars. We were both impressed by the, ahem, creative interpretation of the rules by some and thoroughly disgusted by the blatant disregard for fair competition and respect for fellow racers by others, including some very well know drivers and teams.

No such issues in Sprints. In GT4, if I'm the sixth car across the line, I finish sixth and load up the trailer. Good to go! Don't care if someone runs a Viper, Corvette, whatever in GT4. As long as they fit within the current rules, it's all good.

Classes based on 8 cylinders/6 cylinders/4 cylinders or big bore/small bore? Not interested. My Civic's previous owner struggled to get under 1:40 at CTMP. If someone brings one of those CTCC Civics or Acuras that run 1:28 ... I'm suddenly 10 seconds or more off the pace. With the current GT Sprints rules, they'll be running near the front of GT2 while I'll be happy in GT4.

Agree we need more promotion and more exposure. Still think Race Ontario Championship Events are the best kept secret - and the best value for a day of family entertainment.

3wheeler
08-15-2015, 11:09 PM
Here's a simple idea to help with the CASC ladder..

What if CASC offers the Autocross champ a free event or two to the following years Ontario Time Attack series, and the Time attack champ also gets a free event or two in CASC road racing. This may be enough incentive for people to move up the ladder. Hell, maybe instead of giving the time attack champ a free event or two, CASC could wave their school fee for their class B license. Road racing champs could also get a free or event or two to ensure they come back e following year. Something for everyone!

And how about one more idea...

How about CASC working with CSCS and offering the same to one of their class champs. This would also help promote CASC road racing to a crowd you dont seem to reach now. By offering a fairly large prize like that will make people notice!!

Not sure if these are feasible but it doesn't hurt throwing it out there.

oblio125
08-15-2015, 11:36 PM
[QUOTE=Zimm;249384]

"Don't care if someone runs a Viper, Corvette, whatever in GT4. As long as they fit within the current rules, it's all good."

Sitting in tech all night has got to be frustrating, but when two Vettes and a Viper finish ahead of your Honda in GT4 there has to be a similar sense of frustration as you're loading it on the trailer.

Saj5DJ
08-15-2015, 11:54 PM
Here's a simple idea to help with the CASC ladder..

What if CASC offers the Autocross champ a free event or two to the following years Ontario Time Attack series...

Actually discussing this one Corey. Looks like the A/S championship is mine to lose this year, but (assuming I do hold on to it) I'd be very happy to pass on any incentives we can come up with to any interested runners up if we make it work.

ScotcH
08-16-2015, 02:11 AM
[QUOTE=Zimm;249384]

"Don't care if someone runs a Viper, Corvette, whatever in GT4. As long as they fit within the current rules, it's all good."

Sitting in tech all night has got to be frustrating, but when two Vettes and a Viper finish ahead of your Honda in GT4 there has to be a similar sense of frustration as you're loading it on the trailer.

Bingo bango.

SlotMotorsports
08-16-2015, 08:16 AM
I don't typically post but just a couple quick points.

Finding information about regional racing is at best difficult. It's not advertised and the general public has little to no information.
Combine auto cross and car shows with events, awesome idea. More exposure, possibility of attracting sponsors.

I think we know the structure of CASC , separate clubs and race groups. Quite possibly this is what is bogging regional racing down in our current environment compared to other race series .

Shark
08-16-2015, 11:26 AM
Reading all this negativity would definitely scare me away if I was new. Where is that " Last Page" on this forum, I thought I had seen it already.

I think a Radical is my next move... lots of positive threads there. And, holy cow... that field is growing. Hmmm, what is Robert Burgess doing that everyone else isn't... oh, I know, he's building racing, not blowing it up. If anyone can find a negative comment on the Radical Forums please let me know, and I will apologize.

Just picture reading all this negative bitching and whining on the Radical Forums. Why on earth would someone want to race with such a negative bunch.

Anyway, just my 2 cents. Maybe I've missed something in the forums, Ive been too busy working on my passion instead of reading and writing on the forums day and night.

Steven Scala
08-16-2015, 01:23 PM
Stop complaining about constructive criticism and open-sourced planning, Ray. You're stifling the growth of the sport.

Steven Scala
08-16-2015, 02:03 PM
Honestly, don't understand why people have a problem with "brackets" - almost spitting it out as if it's a filthy phrase.

Because while it accommodates entrants who'd like to be in the running for a trophy - regardless of what if anything the trophy stands for - it offers nothing to draw people into the sport besides the promise of arbitrary trophies. The guy who wins CSCS' production class this year can tell his brother-in-law what he'd won, and the in-law will probably have an idea of what that means. Not the same deal with 'fastest guy slower than this laptime that a committee picked based on groupings of... oh, nevermind.'

I have no interest in car classifications, BoP, PAX, etc. My admittedly jaded view comes from memories of spending 4 to 5 hours in impound after Enduroseries and Motorola Cup races years ago. Only getting released when the officials decided they wanted to go home at 9 or 10pm. And we had a race to prepare for next morning. All that impound time did nothing to equalize cars.

I think we can agree that (spec series' aside) equalizing GT and touring cars is impractical on the regional scale, and probably besides the point anyway. (My view on PAX, btw.)

Please don't throw taxonomy out with the bathwater, though. A twelve year-old can tell the difference between a GT car and a touring car. You don't have to hang around til 10PM to figure that out. Do you know the difference between a stock car and a sedan? Slick tire and DOT? Is it 10PM yet?

... Im the sixth car across the line, I finish sixth and load up the trailer. Good to go! Don't care if someone runs a Viper, Corvette, whatever in GT4. As long as they fit within the current rules, it's all good.

Sixth car across the line that typically does laptimes between X any Y, that is. It could easily have been the sixth purple car across the line, the sixth car across the line with sparkplugs from Brand X, or the sixth car across the line with a roof. Tech regs don't have to be harder than reading a stopwatch.

My Civic's previous owner struggled to get under 1:40 at CTMP. If someone brings one of those CTCC Civics or Acuras that run 1:28 ... I'm suddenly 10 seconds or more off the pace. With the current GT Sprints rules, they'll be running near the front of GT2 while I'll be happy in GT4.

So really we need to ask how we can reward people who like to run vintage-era cars such as yours in the open GT Sprints, then. I have no problem with a VARAC-sponsored vintage award. Could even drive entries to their grids if done right.

Again, I'm not suggesting that GT Sprints needs reform today, or that it's a silver bullet. I'm just saying that - like nuclear proliferation or leaded gasoline - history can look upon bracket racing as something that was probably a good idea at the time, but which ultimately did us a disservice in the long view.

Steven Scala
08-16-2015, 02:04 PM
... If the 3hr podium is not locked out by FWD cars again this year, then I'll personally award a VTEC solenoid to the owner of the top-finishing RWD car. Maybe next year I'll have my own sponsor raise the stakes of that wager, and said sponsor will know what s/he's paying for.

I've recently had some VTEC elders remind me that VTEC solenoids never die.

[HUSHED AWE]Wow...[/HUSHED AWE]

Okay, a framed print it is, then.

Steven Scala
08-16-2015, 02:16 PM
I'd just like to add that I appreciate the input that Nick Majors, Mike Boekdrukker, Dave Darrow and others have provided on this discussion recently, as well as comments from Ken Robbins (hi, Ken!) and Bart Slot. nbrigido's got energy and ideas (that's good) and probably has to be careful about stepping on some sandcastles (easy, buddy), so thanks to those (Dave King in particular) who have helped remind us of how we got here. Can't say I agree with those in favour of PAX proliferation, but I do appreciate the effort.

I say this as someone who can only afford to drive other peoples' cars 1-2 times a year, who appreciates that it's mildly sustainable for said Other People, and who would like to see said Other People afford to enter more.

Oh and Ray, you're still a wet blanket. I can say this because I made you a nice steak yesterday.

Shark
08-16-2015, 02:46 PM
That was a nice steak. But, that micro brewed beer you drank gave you a mean headache. Next time, go with the fully chemical ized... brew that I drink. It goes with all the chemical ized food we eat... except for that 35.00 steak...

Gotta pay alot more for them not to pump in the chemicals.

DavidSim
08-16-2015, 07:14 PM
Bottom line for me, I like GT Sprints just the way it is, don't mess with it; yes I guess I am old fashioned from another era at 65 (I think Facebook and Twitter are a waste of time, I use a cheapie Wind Mobile phone for the one or two calls I make or receive a month, etc.), but I've got lots of time on my hands and good money to spend.

But go ahead and create a whole new class if you wish, with a different model (other than brackets), I wish it well (but it is not for me).

Regards to all.

Ken Robins
08-16-2015, 10:11 PM
Speed to the left. Cost to the right. Desire up the middle.

Pick your perch.

But don't mess up Regional racing with your glass ego by asking to change the class rules just because you are a wanker. Finish P17 in class and have a great day at the track. Go home,smile, and figure out how to beat P16. And be less of a wanker next time.......... and kick 'his' arse next time out........

KR.

fastnx
08-16-2015, 10:48 PM
The comments in this thread haven't brought any conclusive way forward to improve the numbers but the biggest take-away is that you can't please everyone all the time. No matter which format ultimately proceeds someone is going to disagree.

We have heard from people who dismiss the idea of bracket racing entirely, people who think it's great the way it is and some people who sit somewhere in between these two extremes.

I think some have used GT Sprints as a stepping stone to other series with more strict rules seen as more 'real racing' and some have gone the opposite way. Remember when the Can Jam guys got fed up with the balance of performance rules in Touring Car and came back to running CASC regional races for several years?

The idea of sandbagging is
1. more present in bench racing than in reality and
2. not confined to GT Sprints.

1. This is my 7th year racing the same car in the same class (Black Nissan NX2000 in GT5). I drive the living piss out of the car and have broken out literally one lap in a qualifying session in 2014. I have observed and raced against others who drive the same way and some who are driving below the potential of the car not intentionally, but during the driver development process. Take Alan Morris who races a blue BMW. 2 years ago he was racing in GT4 but was running GT5 lap times, we would pass each other repeatedly even though his car has 50+hp and better tire than me. This year he is currently leading the GT4 championship having improved his driving skills to match the potential of the car. I have seen countless others go through a similar learning curve and from my point of view racers driving below potential are still learning how to get the most out of their car and are not intentionally driving slowly to win a trophy.

2. I crew cheifed for my brother who raced a similar NX2000 in the precursor to CTCC in 2005-2006. We had a $5000 car on a shoestring budget and raced against Nick Majors in what was a near Speed World Challenge calibre car that cost 10-20 times what our car did. My brother was a more aggressive driver than Nick and ran similar lap times despite a huge difference in budget and car potential and I remember leaving the track frustrated on Sunday evening being beaten by budget and not driver talent. The point being this is similar situation to what many describe in GT sprints but it was happening in CTCC with hard rules and no brackets. (I hope you don't mind me using this example Nick.)

I really like the idea of GT Challenge but I think it needed some sort of handling index to make it a more level playing field. I think the idea was to gradually implement this idea as to not drive competitors away with too many rules created and changed too quickly. Having said that I think there is some truth to the concept that adding more GT series (ie. adding GT Challenge to GT Sprints) will split the same number of entries between fewer classes and thin out each individual class. This is not 100% true since I know of a few racers who race challenge only and not sprints but that is only a handful of the challenge field, many who migrated from sprints to challenge (or ran both series which I have done a few weekends).

I am not sure if moving from 6 weekends last year to 8 this year has been helpful. I really do like the addition of Shannonville to the schedule where it was absent from the 2014 season. So far the Shannonville event had the most number of entries this year.

If we race at the new DDT in place of the Grand Prix track for 1 or 2 events would that decrease the average cost of track rental? Surely the DDT must be cheaper to rent than the Grand Prix track. And there would be the added appeal of racing a new track. How many times do we get a new race track in Ontario to experience for the first time? This may appeal to many and get more cars out

We need to reach out to the general enthusiast market. I came to Mosport for the first time at around age 7 and attended at least one race a year for the next 10-12 years and I did not discover regional racing until much later. The idea of me racing seemed completely unattainable, I had no idea how one went about getting a race license or fielding a car. If I had known I would have become involved much earlier. How many other people dream of racing at Mosport but have no idea how to go about doing so? Perhaps we could advertise CASC at pro events to help guide people in the right direction?

We need more consistent entires. In the first 5 years I raced I could only afford to do 1 event per year, this year and last I have been lucky enough run nearly every event but I understand what it is like to have a limited budget and only make 1 race per year. Looking at the GT5 field there are 15 individual drivers who have come out to race in the first 5 events. Out of these 15 only 7 have been at more than one race this year. Over 50% of the drivers have only come out once per year. We need these drivers to come more than once. Would it make sense to offer a reduced rate for multiple entries? ie. 500 for event 1, 475 for event 2, 450 for event 3 etc. Or do what CTCC does and offer pre-purchased entries for a reduced rate ie. pre-enter and commit to the entire season for $3,500.00 instead of paying $4,000.00 (8 races x $500.00) or some sort of variation of this (pre-buy 4 races, etc.).

I hope all those with constructive ideas come to the race workshop in the fall (CASC may have to schedule lots of time for this) so we can put our ideas together.

ScotcH
08-17-2015, 12:35 PM
So referencing this thread: http://www.casc.on.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=32110 (CMP breakout times) would put our CTCC BMWs (and other front running CTCC cars) in GT1 (they can run a 2:14 on a good day). How does that even make sense? The CTMP breakout for GT2 is 1:27, which we can't touch. Yup, brackets work for everyone ;)

Doug P
08-17-2015, 01:15 PM
A friend raced there in June. GT3. At Mosport he has been close to breakout but never yet. And I know for a fact that he is NOT sandbagging as I race with him. As with me, he is still a bit behind the car by a second or so.

At Calabogie he had to put himself in GT2 and came with a tenth of breaking out to GT1.

Those breakout times do not align with Mosport breakouts.

Carguy
08-17-2015, 01:41 PM
There are some very good points being made here about the “issues” with road racing. Here is my 2 cents worth.

Costs such as entry fees, acquiring or building a car, trailer, tow vehicle, consumables are all factors we have little control over except in some minor ways through the rule set (like keeping it simple to prevent cost escalation). So it’s natural that the discussion revolves around the rule set. However rule set tweaks alone will not attract people with an interest in racing and who have the means to pay for it. Call me crazy but I don’t think potential road racers will ever get so excited by any series’ rule set as to make them want to take up the sport. So how does CASC (and the Ontario region clubs) grow interest in road racing? Think outside the box (OK I know it’s a cliché, but hear me out). To me, tweaking the rule set is thinking inside the box.

Our sport in all its forms is about passion (for speed, cars, winning, etc.) and quite honestly without that passion, who would spend the (sometimes) ridiculous amounts of money we put into our cars? What is outside the box is reaching out to people with an interest in cars, rather than looking for people who are ready to jump into road racing as a hobby, and to nurture that potential over time and thus channel their passion to a race series. Promotion should be systemic rather that a once-in-a-while-effort, or perhaps just an off-season endeavour. And it’s not as though it hasn’t been done before since many clubs host “newbie” events. Although when newbie events are organized by clubs it is more geared toward increasing membership (a good thing). However, CASC has no presence at these events.

SPDA has been holding newbie track days for a number of years now. Very recently 1morelap.ca in collaboration with CMP had a huge turnout to a $60/30 minute session newbie track introduction – with an instructor. There was also a show & shine, local Mustang car club show/lapping, parade lapping at lunch time, vendor booths, and more. Both paddocks were absolutely filled with car people including family members. The buzz and passion was palpable. Think of your local club, CASC road race, rally, time attack, you name it, with a chance to reach out to a car loving audience just to talk about our racing passion. We have to remember that the younger generation is not only media savvy but they are accustomed to all kinds of marketing and promotions that cater to their desires. In short, tomorrow’s road racer is different than today’s road racer and road racing needs to get good at reaching the younger demographic.

I fully understand the implications, both from a financial and volunteer perspective, of putting together a (dare I say) sustainable promotional program for promoting road racing. Perhaps we need to consider that road racing’s very survival depends on it. I’m not a marketing or promotion kind of person, but I contribute where I can by volunteering as an instructor to share my passion with newbies. Time will tell if that effort was worthwhile, but I suspect is already is well spent. The rules are fine it’s racers that we need.

ROTARY ROCKET
08-17-2015, 01:42 PM
Our structure - is club based. Every racer is the member of a club. And that's where you start. You are not a member of CASC - your club is. And the clubs jointly elect CASC-OR directors & officers.

The Race Organizing Clubs - that host and run events currently - are BEMC, BARC, DAC & MCO (and VARAC). Each club has a Race Director - and whether they have separate race meetings or just regular club meetings - they are the ones that you need to contact and make your thoughts and ideas known to (while volunteering your time, support & participation to back up those ideas)

For those brave souls who have a lot of time to give - you may consider volunteering your services to the Region's Race Director as a Driver's Rep or get more active with your series if it has a steering committee.

Whatever you try to do - you have to understand that you will be working with many other people (some of who have been volunteering for decades) - and if you want to be listened to - you have to accommodate some of their ideas and views as well as promoting your own. You don't do it by demanding or trying to impose your personal views and agenda on everyone.

Trust me - finding consensus is not an easy task. Ideas are frequent (they just take a few forum posts), but agreement and people to implement are much harder to find.

(Once again - I personally am no longer involved at either the club or CASC-OR level)

Guys:

Please read Nicks post! take your time and read it again!! Why are we beating our heads! No need to change sprints or F Libra etc, the classes that are the back bone of this region! There were/are people here that hated the idea of challenge because they thought it took away from sprints and wanted it to fail, but will that really help sprints?

Please look at the big picture, it is the system that is broken, not the race classes! The Multi Club system means that it is very difficult to make changes, and with clubs having different agendas and some not wanting to work with one another, it will be next to impossible to make changes. Meaning it is much bigger than all of us here!

One thing is for sure, all the classes ( like it or not) need each other, it's simple math, more cars in all classes mean the ability to hit the break even for the clubs. The demise of any class weather it's challenge, sprints, libre, or Radical will mean higher entry fees. Again! Read Nicks Post! The clubs will have to want and make the changes, and then it is up to all of us to support the changes and make it happen for the better, after it resets itself!

luker0
08-17-2015, 01:48 PM
A friend raced there in June. GT3. At Mosport he has been close to breakout but never yet. And I know for a fact that he is NOT sandbagging as I race with him. As with me, he is still a bit behind the car by a second or so.

At Calabogie he had to put himself in GT2 and came with a tenth of breaking out to GT1.

Those breakout times do not align with Mosport breakouts.

I think you just made Arek's point. So now we'd have to register in multiple different classes depending on the track.

Personally don't care anymore as I've abandoned ever racing Sprints again.

Chris Lawson
08-17-2015, 01:55 PM
I think you just made Arek's point. So now we'd have to register in multiple different classes depending on the track.

Personally don't care anymore as I've abandoned ever racing Sprints again.

Obviously they need to be adjusted prior to the race.......not a big deal, and I suspect they will be

luker0
08-17-2015, 02:00 PM
For comparison, here are last year's breakouts from Race Bulletin 3

Calabogie Motorsport Park (Full or Long Track)
GT1: 2 m. 13.999 s. or faster
GT2: 2 m. 14.000 s. and slower
GT3: 2 m. 18.000 s. and slower
GT4: 2 m. 22.000 s. and slower
GT5: 2 m. 27.000 s. and slower


Seem every thing drops two seconds. My car would now arbitrarily be a GT3 car.

Chris Lawson
08-17-2015, 02:01 PM
So referencing this thread: http://www.casc.on.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=32110 (CMP breakout times) would put our CTCC BMWs (and other front running CTCC cars) in GT1 (they can run a 2:14 on a good day). How does that even make sense? The CTMP breakout for GT2 is 1:27, which we can't touch. Yup, brackets work for everyone ;)

Arek et al...... All this complaining about sandbagging is unnecessary. Unless you are at the pointy end of your class, or in GT1, speed up and quit complaining. If you have a problem with someone who is faster than you, pass them. Too easy. If you can't, then modify your car or drive better. Sort of sounds like what some others were saying about power/weight classes. I started in GT3 and as I got better, and made the truck better I got to GT2. Whenever I come out I am chasing John Hansen, who is wicked fast and NOT sandbagging. I have yet to catch him, but it is fun trying. I dice it up with the other cars and enjoy (including you Arek) my race. If a racer is very close to the break out time for their respective class they don't need to worry about sandbaggers; you can either pass them or push them. If they are not at the pointy end, they have work to do---just like any other series/rule set. If a Viper beats a Civic in GT4, then speed the Civic up. And oh, no one seems to complain about the a Civic in GT4, when they are capable GT2 times.....for many of us it is the driver which is the limiting factor. As a driver improves the class should change until the potential of the car is exploited and the natural class is found for the car and driver. Certainly there are cars that could be in a different class with different driver (both higher and lower). The beauty of Sprints is it allows any combination of car and driver to have a place to race. If you don't like it, like Luker0, you don't have to race in it. I think what we are all trying to find is "something" which will bring out more racers. I hope we can.

ScotcH
08-17-2015, 02:22 PM
Arek et al...... All this complaining about sandbagging is unnecessary.

I never said anything about sandbagging ... just making a point that brackets most certainly do NOT work for everyone. At Mosport, I am having fun in GT2 ... would be funner with more cars, but it was good, there was 3 of us having a great battle in that one race. I cannot touch GT1 unless I bolt in a v8 or a turbo. AT CMP, I might break out into GT1. Sounds like a problem to me, unless I actually try not to go as fast as I can. Reasonable? I fully realize no rule set is going to be perfect. But some are arguing that brackets is the best it can be. I'm simply disagreeing with that statement.

And your point "if you don't like it, don't race in it" is perfectly valid. However, it does nothing to try to make the fields bigger. Sure does not sound like anyone is willing to listen to the customers. If there is no alternative to GT Sprints, and the attitude is "we won't change a damn thing because some people like it the way it is", no wonder there a bunch of cars in garages not coming out.

I too hope for bigger fields, more customers, lower fees ... but unless SOMETHING changes, it ain't going to happen.

Chris Lawson
08-17-2015, 02:28 PM
Thanks Arek, appreciate the response :)

There is an upcoming Race Meeting/Awards in November. Rather than banter, I am willing to ask CASC (with the help of my Club) to hold a plenary session in which any delegate can have a maximum of 5 minutes to present their SOLUTIONS to improve racing in Ontario. Is this a start? Is this a good idea? Who would present? I would!

Nick Majors
08-17-2015, 03:18 PM
AT the risk of aggravating the discussion / debate about bracket racing . . . this was just pointed out to me:

SCCA to Debut New Road Racing Bracket Enduro Format

Date Mar 17, 2015
Written by Ed Higginbotham

SCCA has come up with an interesting new take on endurance racing. It’s designed to be physically less burdening on teams, but still balance the field with a unique scoring method.

The events will feature 4 classes. The first will be an “open” class: whoever goes the farthest the fastest wins. However, the other three will use a format that balances cars and teams through time allowances, similar to drag racing. Teams will have a variety of options, including tire choice and set up, to run within their target times. If a car runs quicker than its target lap—determined by its class. The time is multiplied by 1.5 and put into a bank. Bank time is paid back in pit lane.

The SCCA Bracket Enduro will debut at Thompson Speedway Motorsports Park, June 6-7. And SCCA expects to have many more of the events going into 2016.

The format is designed to also appeal to former racers who may have found that their race car no longer fits well in traditional SCCA sprint racing classes. If it passes safety inspection, and is deemed eligible, it is legal regardless of configuration or modification.

(from the ruleset at http://www.scca.com/pages/bracket-enduro)

Purpose:

A less restrictive rule set for both drivers and cars and a unique scoring method to balance the field highlight the SCCA’s Bracket Enduro program, set to run on a limited basis in 2015 and grow dramatically in 2016.

The event format balances cars and teams through time allowances, similar to drag racing. Teams will have a variety of options, including tire choice and set up, to run within their target times.

Most importantly, this program is designed to be fun!

Of course they are still going to run their full slate of regular classes - these are being added - in addition to.

ScotcH
08-17-2015, 03:26 PM
AT the risk of aggravating the discussion / debate about bracket racing . . . this was just pointed out to me:





Of course they are still going to run their full slate of regular classes - these are being added - in addition to.

Very interesting! You know, it may very well be the answer here as well. Keep the brackets, but add proper classes with some rules. Those who just want to come out and race for fun, simply don't register or prepare to a class, and you'll run in the bracket. Alternatively, the actual GT Championship would be run with the prep classes. Dare I say best of both worlds?

And the key: Run all the cars at the same time ... if we get too many entries (gasp!) split the grid! So we end up with one GT Championship, but hopefully it caters to both the casual racer (brackets), and the more serious competition focused championship with prep classes that hope to somewhat consolidate like performance cars.

Nick Majors
08-17-2015, 03:30 PM
Anyway - I am going to back out of this discussion and leave it those that are more affected by the rules, structure, etc.

Wishing all of you good luck & success.

There is a lot that can and maybe should be done for roadracing - but it needs people to step up.

All the best

Nick

luker0
08-17-2015, 03:42 PM
Thanks for that link Nick, that is some serious outside the box thinking with that system. Heck they even have a "sandbagging" clause aimed at making sure a CAR is classed to its potential.

This definitely is very interesting.

Kcodekid
08-17-2015, 03:45 PM
Very interesting! You know, it may very well be the answer here as well. Keep the brackets, but add proper classes with some rules. Those who just want to come out and race for fun, simply don't register or prepare to a class, and you'll run in the bracket. Alternatively, the actual GT Championship would be run with the prep classes. Dare I say best of both worlds?

And the key: Run all the cars at the same time ... if we get too many entries (gasp!) split the grid! So we end up with one GT Championship, but hopefully it caters to both the casual racer (brackets), and the more serious competition focused championship with prep classes that hope to somewhat consolidate like performance cars.

Arek you sure sound like big motor fast cars are a problem for you.And why are brackets only for casual racers?

ScotcH
08-17-2015, 03:56 PM
Arek you sure sound like big motor fast cars are a problem for you.And why are brackets only for casual racers?

Our CTCC BMWs can run 1:28 at Mosport and 2:14 at CMP. We also have a C6 corvette. I have no problem with fast cars with big motors. Perhaps I should have said "rules-adverse" racers, not casual racers.

thekid
08-17-2015, 08:56 PM
FYI from a very budget chumper. Chump isn't really that much less expensive, until you count track time.

In a 14 hour race I drove for 3.5 hours. Cost me $1200 for that. Cost the same for my other 3 drivers on the team.

And that's a slow car using up no tires. The top teams are spending more like $3k a weekend per driver (tires brakes and fuel cost more) and the wear and tear on the car.

Chump cars aren't $500. Most of the cars having $20k+ into them. But there is an advantage to splitting the costs.

I've never run a CASC race but keep wanting to, this year car troubles. But I've run other series races and the barriers are easier in those series than they are in CASC (especially tech).

I hope to run Ted Powell if I can secure a car.

It comes down to bang for your buck. Top teams are not spending $3k/driver per weekend, more like $3k/car per weekend split 3-4 ways.

There are some people who may pay other people to build their cars and have over $20k in to Chump Car (I'd say less than 5 out of 50+ teams), but with the exception of one that was booted and seriously breaking the rules (GT2 type car), they aren't winning races. We could build our car over and over again for less than $6k and it's very competitive.

Just wondering, based on the theme of $$ required to get to and go on the track, what is the thinking on the Nissan Micra series starting to bubble in Quebec. Cars are not over the top expensive, they are not fast but they may be fun and if you are thinking about racing, close wheel to wheel racing, is this an option that might bring people back to the track? They were a blast to watch in Montreal, just saying....:confused:

Since it's a 3yr committment, running a Micra is about $40k/year for 3 years, not really my idea of budget.

Assuming that you are correct then what is the magic secret? CTCC in Ontario probably has about 20 cars, Chump has had 46 or so entries, Radical has about 18. None of this makes a business case at all. All the series above have prep rules instead of brackets and don't really attract more entries. I don't have the magic solution but any format doesn't really seem to attract any reasonable field of cars.

Keep in mind, each of the series you mentioned has different entry fees. I can't speak for them all, but Chump is being run in Ontario by a husband and wife, and they wouldn't be putting on races if they weren't at least breaking even.

Here's a simple idea to help with the CASC ladder..

What if CASC offers the Autocross champ a free event or two to the following years Ontario Time Attack series, and the Time attack champ also gets a free event or two in CASC road racing. This may be enough incentive for people to move up the ladder. Hell, maybe instead of giving the time attack champ a free event or two, CASC could wave their school fee for their class B license. Road racing champs could also get a free or event or two to ensure they come back e following year. Something for everyone!

And how about one more idea...

How about CASC working with CSCS and offering the same to one of their class champs. This would also help promote CASC road racing to a crowd you dont seem to reach now. By offering a fairly large prize like that will make people notice!!

Not sure if these are feasible but it doesn't hurt throwing it out there.

Best post in the entire thread, probably the most constructive.

thekid
08-17-2015, 09:00 PM
And here is my $0.02 which is now rounded down to nothing if paying cash so take it for what you will....

So what I've observed in this thread so far is people observe that there is a problem, since entries are declining. Most seem to agree to this point.

Some existing racers speculate as to the problem, and comment on their concerns both for and against the current system.

New perspective racer comes on and lists some of his perceived barriers to entry, perceived or not they are a reality for him, and then experienced racers proceed to dismiss him, or suggest he needs to be more flexible/adaptable, while other perspective racers agree with his points in part or whole.

--> Right above is the problem, everyone agrees there is an issue, but it really appears people aren't willing to consider change, mean while you've got several other series who have essentially adopted that philosophy and are scooping up these competitors because their barriers to entry are much less.

Feedback right or wrong, if you just jump to dismiss someone who's provided valuable feedback, then your beloved series will be doomed.

Arek's pseudo rule proposal addressed one key thing - ensure everyone who races sprints or challenge has a place to race. That corresponds with Nick's and other's concern about being inclusive, but doesn't force a disliked by some bracket rule set. I'm not saying which is right wrong, but if you refuse to constructively discuss change you may refuse the future customer base a place to race with CASC.

...

Point of refernece on cost. I'm headed to Lime Rock Park this weekend, I'm going to go race, get ~6hrs of wheel to wheel time across 3 days, and my costs including transportation, food, lodging, and racing will be around $1500 in a competitive GT5 type car. That's pretty good bang for my buck and track variety. I never raced a regional for less than $2.5k/weekend (most were much more, and way closer), and that got me at most 90 mins of race time.

I realize many (maybe even most) want to go faster than GT5 speeds, that's fine, until there are no races left to go to if you don't find a away to bolster the coffers by a well populated set of series.

AlfaKen
08-17-2015, 09:53 PM
Point of refernece on cost. I'm headed to Lime Rock Park this weekend, I'm going to go race, get ~6hrs of wheel to wheel time across 3 days, and my costs including transportation, food, lodging, and racing will be around $1500 in a competitive GT5 type car. That's pretty good bang for my buck and track variety. I never raced a regional for less than $2.5k/weekend (most were much more, and way closer), and that got me at most 90 mins of race time.

I realize many (maybe even most) want to go faster than GT5 speeds, that's fine, until there are no races left to go to if you don't find a away to bolster the coffers by a well populated set of series.

I'd love to meet your travel agent😀 I'm guessing it would cost me almost that much in Canuck Bucks to go and watch 3 days racing at Limerock... Food and hotel for 4 nights plus gas. 😀😀😀😀😀

thekid
08-17-2015, 11:14 PM
I'd love to meet your travel agent😀 I'm guessing it would cost me almost that much in Canuck Bucks to go and watch 3 days racing at Limerock... Food and hotel for 4 nights plus gas. 😀😀😀😀😀

Airbnb.com, rent a house with 8 beds and split it 8 ways, little over $100 per person in CDN$$.

AlfaKen
08-17-2015, 11:40 PM
Definitely sounds better than $150 USD per night hotel room. It really does pay to travel in packs.

wings2k
08-17-2015, 11:44 PM
I personally know of 5+ chump cars with well over 20 grand in them.

The Calabogie chump cars have 15k engines in them alone.

Our chump car was $1500 and it shows lol. Another grand and it's actually going to be competitive with a bigger engine.

But that said, yes there are some cheap chump cars out there, but a lot of them are spending a lot more than you think.

SlotMotorsports
08-18-2015, 05:39 AM
New perspective racer comes on and lists some of his perceived barriers to entry, perceived or not they are a reality for him, and then experienced racers proceed to dismiss him, or suggest he needs to be more flexible/adaptable, while other perspective racers agree with his points in part or whole.

There's the first real issue in a nutshell.
There is actually a large article in the current Grassroots Motorsports issue about the very phenomenon that is going on here. The trend of low buck series is on the rise, seems we are not the only ones talking about it.
So can we evolve to somehow to cut costs or offer end of race weekend $ incentive to attract these entry level cars?

davedarrow
08-18-2015, 10:19 AM
Bingo!

Road racing is a business and all businesses are pyramid shaped
The more expensive something is the smaller the group of customers, otherwise we'd all be driving GT1 cars in Sprints or F1 cars on the Libre grid.

At the bottom of the pyramid was karting, I think now lapping days is the cheapest thrill out there now.

Seeing current situation if I was president of a hosting club I'd say no more hosting regional races, lapping days, BBQ and show and shine car show in the infield is the future

I hear people saying that Sprints is the bulk of the entry money for a weekend-yes it is but it's still far short of the 50 to 60K to run a race.

The future of road racing in Ontario is in your hands, everyone that races has to get together now and hit the reset button.
There's the first real issue in a nutshell.
There is actually a large article in the current Grassroots Motorsports issue about the very phenomenon that is going on here. The trend of low buck series is on the rise, seems we are not the only ones talking about it.
So can we evolve to somehow to cut costs or offer end of race weekend $ incentive to attract these entry level cars?

Chris Lawson
08-18-2015, 10:45 AM
The CTMP site........has a drop down menu "how to get started in racing"

http://canadiantiremotorsportpark.com/track-days/

davedarrow
08-18-2015, 10:58 AM
So since the beginning or racing in Ontario clubs hosted races and took the financial hit.

In the States when you go to a race it's SCCA that runs the show, perhaps it's time for the clubs to walk away from hosting race weekends and let CASC run the show?

HSR in the States runs a huge vintage circus and they run it like a business and make money doing it.

At the end of the day there's a race weekend and people come out and race, does it matter who put's it on?

metric1
08-18-2015, 11:54 AM
So since the beginning or racing in Ontario clubs hosted races and took the financial hit.

In the States when you go to a race it's SCCA that runs the show, perhaps it's time for the clubs to walk away from hosting race weekends and let CASC run the show?

HSR in the States runs a huge vintage circus and they run it like a business and make money doing it.

At the end of the day there's a race weekend and people come out and race, does it matter who put's it on?


And there you have it. The clubs are bleeding money running events this year, as in the past, and CASC has money in the bank, with the majority of CASC income coming from race division. Why not have CASC take over the events? The clubs could still host and supply volunteers, same as they do now. I dare say that it would be easier and more cost effective to negotiate six, seven or even eight events with tracks than each club trying to do it on their own.

thekid
08-18-2015, 12:10 PM
Another thought, maybe it's been discussed before, but what about an incentive program for racers who refer new racers to the sport? What about a returning racer discount, after two full paid entries, the third is 25% off.

I realize in the current club model this might not work as the weekend of the discount, the hosting club would bear the financial burden of the discount, without benefiting from the previous full priced entries. This is where a centrally run, or a full profit/loss sharing model would be needed.

I'd also like to add, if I recall correctly from my time in both AutoSlalom and Time Attack, both of those entities were financially independent from race, following a similar model where the hosting clubs put on the events (and assume the risk of profit or loss, responsible for their own event promotion aside from the centralized schedule), paying a event fee to CASC allowing them to host. I keep seeing comments about the belief that race is subsidizing other disciplines, but I don't understand where this belief is coming from.

Saj5DJ
08-18-2015, 12:30 PM
I'd also like to add, if I recall correctly from my time in both AutoSlalom and Time Attack, both of those entities were financially independent from race, following a similar model where the hosting clubs put on the events (and assume the risk of profit or loss, responsible for their own event promotion aside from the centralized schedule), paying a event fee to CASC allowing them to host. I keep seeing comments about the belief that race is subsidizing other disciplines, but I don't understand where this belief is coming from.

Speaking for Autoslalom here; the above is still true.

Only expenses to CASC to run our series are regional trophies, our share of admin costs, banquet tickets, small incidentals such as AA batteries for timing gear, printing expenses etc. All of this is covered by the regional event permit fees, Class D license fees and Pro Series entry fees.

Our current timing gear was generously covered by SPDA and did not come out of CASC coffers.

DavidSim
08-18-2015, 12:40 PM
If it would help financially, I would be more than happy with a sticker that denotes a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd, that I could stick to something else, rather than a trophy/plaque.

Small potatoes perhaps, but nonetheless.

abrracing
08-18-2015, 01:11 PM
The past 15 pages are very telling of what the issues are. Too many clubs, too many committee's etc. Everyone has a different opinion of what will work. This needs a dedicated leader to put a fair program in place WITHOUT having to try and get committees and clubs to agree which will never happen. The schedule needs to be set by looking at what other organizers are doing and trying to work with them instead of clubs arguing when they want to hold a race and trying to get them all to agree. To have huge cost events on the same day as other events that draw our competitors is just crazy. I totally understand why race directors, presidents, vp's etc just give up and leave. It is as bad as trying to run a government.

2ndly entry fee's are a huge issue to 65% of the competitors. Your right a GT1 car cost huge to be competitive, new tires every session or weekend, paid crew to keep the car on track etc. For the rest of us who can manage a set of tires/brakes etc for 4-5 race days the costs are simply fuel and entry fee's. Even that combined with a $500.00 entry fee can equal close to $1,000.00.

Don't give me that crap "if you can't afford it".......many have chosen not to afford it and spend elsewhere that's why there are only have 75-80 cars racing. The others have been chased away and gone to other types of racing, and whether you consider it racing or not they aren't paying their money to support regional racing.

Again picking at each other opinions here are serving no purpose they are just opinions. If someone comes to the lead and picks this up, has the right MODERN formula you will quickly see 200+ car race days again. If not it will follow Pontiac, Olds and others that have faded away. I'm done reading and posting have a great rest of the summer!

Oh and for those who criticize a certain person for a video they made, at least that person tried something different and took a chance on it instead of just the same old.

shamrock
08-18-2015, 01:42 PM
And there you have it. The clubs are bleeding money running events this year, as in the past, and CASC has money in the bank, with the majority of CASC income coming from race division. Why not have CASC take over the events? The clubs could still host and supply volunteers, same as they do now. I dare say that it would be easier and more cost effective to negotiate six, seven or even eight events with tracks than each club trying to do it on their own.

Not a bad idea at all. Either put the power in the clubs hands and govern only, or do the opposite. Wholesale changes. re invention. Good post. Another good idea.

James Appell
08-18-2015, 05:00 PM
And there you have it. The clubs are bleeding money running events this year, as in the past, and CASC has money in the bank, with the majority of CASC income coming from race division. Why not have CASC take over the events? The clubs could still host and supply volunteers, same as they do now. I dare say that it would be easier and more cost effective to negotiate six, seven or even eight events with tracks than each club trying to do it on their own.

DEK
08-18-2015, 05:53 PM
Ian,why do you post things that aren't the way it is ? There is NOT a multitude of Clubs trying to negotiate with a single track.
BARC and BEMC singularily negotiate with CTMP,(so maybe, MAYBE there is an opportunity for an advantage) DAC with Shannonville, and MCO with Calabigie(CMP). Celebration is jointly organized by CTMP and CASC with "special" arrangements.
This is nowhere near as "fractionized" as some make out.

metric1
08-18-2015, 06:29 PM
Ian,why do you post things that aren't the way it is ? There is NOT a multitude of Clubs trying to negotiate with a single track.
BARC and BEMC singularily negotiate with CTMP,(so maybe, MAYBE there is an opportunity for an advantage) DAC with Shannonville, and MCO with Calabigie(CMP). Celebration is jointly organized by CTMP and CASC with "special" arrangements.
This is nowhere near as "fractionized" as some make out.

Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been. If BARC and BEMC and CASC all get exactly the same deal from Mosport to host an event to be run under a CASC championship series banner, then that's fine. But I have a feeling they don't. ( again, just my feeling). Maybe it's naive of me to suggest that if its a CASC championship series and event weekend, then would it not make more sense, given the current state of regional racing, to have ONE organisation, like CASC or another, lead, organize, negotiate and be responsible for it all? Because right now, its a backwards business model.

davedarrow
08-18-2015, 08:13 PM
I know what Ian was getting at,If one club or CASC goes to Mosport to buy 5 or 6 race dates you'd think you'd get a better deal than clubs lining up one weekend at a time.

Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been. If BARC and BEMC and CASC all get exactly the same deal from Mosport to host an event to be run under a CASC championship series banner, then that's fine. But I have a feeling they don't. ( again, just my feeling). Maybe it's naive of me to suggest that if its a CASC championship series and event weekend, then would it not make more sense, given the current state of regional racing, to have ONE organisation, like CASC or another, lead, organize, negotiate and be responsible for it all? Because right now, its a backwards business model.

nbrigido
08-20-2015, 11:26 PM
I will always bring it back to sustainability.

Getting current racers to do more events and getting cars out of the garage is the quickest hit we can make....

But..where are we getting the next driver from..."the new racer".

We need to grow during this period

nepeanhearing
08-21-2015, 09:01 AM
Hi,

I am in Formula Libre, in a Formula Renault. I am in my third season of road racing.

My feeling is that there is simply too much choice for people who want to go fast in their car: Track Days (all sorts of choice there too), GT Evening challenge, CASC events, IMSA events etc. The road cars are so good, you can't fool around with them to make them your own in the same ways you used to, sim games are cheap etc etc. In addition, many young people I speak to, simply do not care about cars in general: after all, they pollute, they are dangerous for bikes, and are somewhat archaic overall, in our modern world. Sorry to say all that to the converted, but know thy client and all that...

We have to sell our great sport to one person at a time, and do everything in our powers to get people out to the track and have fun with us. Sure, not everyone is interested in formula car racing, as I am, but they might be very surprised when the costs are broken down (with honesty), to find that it is not what many think at all.

Rich
#71

ps We would LOVE more Formula Renaults/Formula Mazdas et al, out there. Please do not hesitate to corral one of us sometime, and grill us on our experiences. Everyone loves talking about themselves!!

ajazeller
08-21-2015, 11:29 AM
So, my dad just dug up a copy of a 21 page letter he wrote to CASC on August 24th, 1976 which discusses the issues surrounding club racing in Canada. It was written in response to a "call for comments" published in Autosport Canada magazine.

The letter discusses class structure, rules and regulations, falling participation, viability of regional clubs organizing events, volunteers, track time, etc. etc. Sound familiar! :rolleyes:

This letter was written 39 years ago, almost to the day, and we still have the same issues. And this is in a time that most people consider the 'golden years of club racing' (including me). Does that mean we've been in crisis mode for the past 40+ years???

Perhaps these issues are more systemic to club racing and we should treat them as such. Note, I didn't say ignore them... Just acknowledged them for what they are, and deal with them. --Issues with GT sprints -- Fine; hold a meeting (webcast for those who cant make it), discuss the issues, hold a vote and move on. If some people don't like it, that's OK, some people don't like it now. Some will stay and some will take up golf. That's OK too. A stable, friendly, well run, organization with competitive racing will always attract fresh blood -- As it has for the past 40+ years.

The notion that people rather play video games than race for real is simply false. Those people were around 40 years ago as well, they just went to the track as spectators, volunteered, or crewed. A small percentage of them decide to give it ago themselves. Same today with sim-racers. Our job is to make club racing accessible and attractive for them to make that transition when/if they choose.

Also the notion that that modern cars are not conducive to tinkering and car enthusiasts is also false. The accessibility of aftermarket parts FAR exceeds what was available 40, or even 20, years ago. And more people than ever are modifying cars. It's easier to re-program your own ECU now than it was to rebuild a carburetor in the 70's. Wan't new shocks? Great, order them online. In the 70's, a front running Bulava racer had to figure out which pick-up truck shocks would fit his Datsun:confused: If people aren't interested in cars then who are they selling all those parts too?

Remember. We have a great group of people involved in the sport, a warm and welcoming family atmosphere at the track, and some of the best tracks in North America at our door step. We just need to keep doing what we do well - and stay true to our mandate - Competitive wheel-to-wheel racing. Let the drift guys hold drift events, let the lapping guys hold track days, let the cheep endurance guys do their thing. There will naturally be people moving from one discipline to another, there always has. Let's not dilute what we do well by changing to attract people who may never be interested in Club Racing.

Have fun to all racing at Calabogie this weekend. I'm sorry I can't make it.:( I hope to make it out once more in September. :D

All the best,

Alex Zeller

Steven Scala
08-21-2015, 05:22 PM
... where are we getting the next driver from..."the new racer".

We need to grow during this period

After a lot of reflection on why some folks like the bracket thing so much, I've come to realize that it has some potentially very positive characteristics. Specifically, it increases the likelihood that you're racing for position with the cars you're most likely closest to. While this seems to boost entertainment value for some drivers who could care less for the big picture (which we've gotta be okay with), I think this aspect particularly handy for new drivers developing racecraft. It also helps resolve the short sprint format (also well-suited to brainfade-prone rookies or casual racers), where 20 minutes is normally not enough to help equalize the competition.

In short, the GT Sprints in their current form represent what might be the perfect rookie race format.

As for RaceOntario's market positioning, we really do need to stand tall on the fact that this organization is better suited than any to identify and demonstrate the region's best cars and drivers. For this, we need credible race lengths (Challenge had that), and a descriptive awards structure sending the clear message that X is the best YZ car/driver in the province.

Yes, leave the bracket sprints alone, they're the best driver-development tool the division's got. But by all means, grow a premier touring car/gt championship that not only presents a viable ladder rung to CTCC, but represents the best fendered racing this province has to offer.

I'm a Libre guy at heart, but in terms of overall effect, the low-lying fruit of drawing car counts has fenders on it.

DavidSim
08-21-2015, 07:17 PM
>>Yes, leave the bracket sprints alone<<

I agree.

>>But by all means, grow a premier touring car/gt championship that not only presents a viable ladder rung to CTCC, but represents the best fendered racing this province has to offer<<

Sounds expensive !!! How would it differ from CTCC ???

What level of committment would be required (both time and $$$) to make it worthwhile as a competitor ???

What is the payback for someone (both the tangible, and intangible) ???

>>But..where are we getting the next driver from..."the new racer".<<

Why not review details of the new racers that have shown up this year (and last perhaps), what are their attributes (e.g. age, income level, background, etc.), it might be a surprise who they actually are (and what their goals are with respect to racing).

No doubt there are some young people out there who would like to try racing, I'm betting few have the time or re$ource$ to do it. I know of a few people who have taken up racing this year (like me), seems many have a few grey hairs, and the time and resources to actually do it.

23Racer
08-21-2015, 08:44 PM
David, the GT Challenge Series allows a different format of race type for competitors who don't have the time or finances to race in CTCC races. It differs from CTCC in that any car can race in it with a variety of modifications. As well CTCC requires a huge time commitment on a race weekend as most events take 3 days.

I don't understand the whole Sprints versus Challenge feel. I have been racing since 1981 and have raced in many different series with many different rules. Sprints are fine, but I prefer class racing. Also, there has almost always been 2 options for GT racers in Ontario since the late 90 ' s and many racers double dip. It's only been in the last few years as entry fees have increased that cars and teams started to focus on one type or another. I am glad you enjoy Sprints. It's a lot of fun, but there are many racers who enjoy 60 minute 1 day class racing.

Eric

Steven Scala
08-21-2015, 10:13 PM
>>But by all means, grow a premier touring car/gt championship that not only presents a viable ladder rung to CTCC, but represents the best fendered racing this province has to offer<<

Sounds expensive !!! How would it differ from CTCC ???

Well, we're still talking about regional championships here. If you really must compare costs to those involved in running a national tour, start at the travel (http://touringcar.ca/schedule) and crew expenses.

Beyond that, there would be lower costs to satisfy the rules, as there's less at stake in a regional championship as there is in the national championship. We'd be insane not to expect this, even if there's disagreement on how to achieve it. Less significantly, you could probably expect an entrant's sponsorship activation costs to remain just as relatively negligible as they have been in GT Challenge up to now, because again, it's a regional championship. We're not satisfying national sponsors. At our level, sponsors are more likely marketing to the entrants, not so much through them.

What level of committment would be required (both time and $$$) to make it worthwhile as a competitor ???

More than Sprints.

It takes more time and financial commitment to be a champion of long races than it does to be a champion of Sprints, which are about accessibility. Every pyramid's smaller at the top. Increasing the tracktime increases running costs, but:

a) long races equalize competition by exposing the weaknesses implied by massive power. This is why Chump works. This also helps keep tech lines nice and short. (Yes I know Firehawk tech was stupid, but the rules were commensurate to a televised continental championship. We know we're regional, and that usually keeps our rulesmakers sane.)

b) a twelve year-old could tell you that a longer race demands more commitment than a short one. We're talking about determining the best race cars and drivers in the region: in both cases, those are the ones that don't flake after 22 minutes.

If you're about to suggest that the region's premiere championship shouldn't be exclusivized beyond the casual and rookie-friendly GT Sprints, please refer to Rule #1, which applies as much to nonprofit sport organization as it does to corner entry:

Rule #1: don't be greedy.

You can be the champion of a series practically made for rookies and casual racers, but the glory goes to the champion of races that are more demanding than yours. Let's be fair.

Now you might suggest that it's greedy to claim premier championship status and gobble up all that tracktime, but rule #1 applies there, too: the premier championship has to a) be a draw for volunteers, entries, and marketers (this is the product of good series management); and b) has to pay for its relative share of tracktime.

I'm gonna guess that b) has a lot to do with the organizational troubles surrounding GT Challenge over the last 2 years.

What is the payback for someone (both the tangible, and intangible) ???

Bona fide best (GT/Touring/Econobox/Whatever) car and driver in the region. And maybe some free oil. Let's not kid ourselves.

Why not review details of the new racers that have shown up this year (and last perhaps), what are their attributes (e.g. age, income level, background, etc.), it might be a surprise who they actually are (and what their goals are with respect to racing).

When I initiated statistical data gathering from CASC's member databases, I determined in 2004 that the average member was 42 years old. Over the next three years it was plainly evident that said average was increasing by (gasp) one year every year.

By overlaying member addresses against average housing values on a map, we could have gleaned some measures of relative wealth, but we never did that - at least on my watch. But hey, let's take a page from Chump's playbook: why don't we all declare the value of our cars? Open rules should be met with full disclosure. Declare the spec to avoid sitting in tech.

Doug P
08-21-2015, 10:21 PM
David, the GT Challenge Series allows a different format of race type for competitors who don't have the time or finances to race in CTCC races. It differs from CTCC in that any car can race in it with a variety of modifications. As well CTCC requires a huge time commitment on a race weekend as most events take 3 days.

I don't understand the whole Sprints versus Challenge feel. I have been racing since 1981 and have raced in many different series with many different rules. Sprints are fine, but I prefer class racing. Also, there has almost always been 2 options for GT racers in Ontario since the late 90 ' s and many racers double dip. It's only been in the last few years as entry fees have increased that cars and teams started to focus on one type or another. I am glad you enjoy Sprints. It's a lot of fun, but there are many racers who enjoy 60 minute 1 day class racing.

Eric

When Challenge started it used brackets and it was another place to race. Bonus seat time in the same weekend. Great.

They change the format to be performances based. The first year was power/weight only. Subsequent years were supposed to bring in balancing for handling and aero. That never happened.

At least 6 cars I know of the were effectively excluded by this format as power/weight put them in classes with cars running laps 8-10 seconds faster. Who want to do that for an hour. So they sat out of Challange.

Cars were checked the first season at the track to ensure cars were classified properly. That was dropped after awhile also. So there is nothing to prevent someone from classifying their car incorrectly for and advantage. Hmmm. Who wants to do that. At least a sandbagger can be pushed to breakout.

The format was also to promote closer more competitive racing. If you look at any race results for the last couple seasons you will find any second place car in a class to be at least a lap down from the winner. Hmmm. Not closer racing.

Also friends I know that were competing were typically running lap times 2-3 seconds slower than what they ran in sprints because there was nothing to cause them to have to go faster.

The steering committee has disbanded.

Sooo. The result is the series is no longer what it was intended to be.

Fix it or drop it until it's fixed.

Some say they like the format only because they are only able to come race on one single day. Would those people show up on a one day format if instead of one 60 minute race they got two 30 minute races? Same seat time on a single day.

Drop the two practice sessions from sprints and change the format to 3 30 minute races. Still 100 minutes track time as now. One day option with 60 minutes of racing available.

When racing numbers come back again look at another separate series.

Steven Scala
08-21-2015, 10:49 PM
If you look at any race results for the last couple seasons you will find any second place car in a class to be at least a lap down from the winner. Hmmm. Not closer racing.

And drag race finishes are closer than sprint finishes. Would you be surprised if finishing gaps tend to be proportional to race distances?

I did read your post past this point, but I was unable to get really past it, y'know?

.

Steven Scala
08-21-2015, 11:03 PM
I personally know of 5+ chump cars with well over 20 grand in them.

The Calabogie chump cars have 15k engines in them alone.

Our chump car was $1500 and it shows lol. Another grand and it's actually going to be competitive with a bigger engine.

We'd hope that RaceOntario is positioned as an acknowledged 'step up' for overachieving chump teams, but we also have to acknowledge that some of these overachievers are wily old pros who just relish (or rent out) the tracktime, and are too proud (or upmarket) to show up in a heap.

RaceOntario should have an offering to catch these guys once the true chumps eschew them (entrant poaching goes both ways, of course), but it may take at least a 6hr to get 'em to load the trailer.

Doug P
08-22-2015, 12:31 AM
And drag race finishes are closer than sprint finishes. Would you be surprised if finishing gaps tend to be proportional to race distances?

I did read your post past this point, but I was unable to get really past it, y'know?

.

Your right. So with lap times of 95-100 seconds after a 20 minute sprint race he is only 30 seconds behind. Close? The last weekend in sept I swapped 1st place with another car about 8 times in the race.

Kcodekid
08-22-2015, 08:51 AM
a) long races equalize competition by exposing the weaknesses implied by massive power. This is why Chump works. This also helps keep tech lines nice and short. (Yes I know Firehawk tech was stupid, but the rules were commensurate to a televised continental championship. We know we're regional, and that usually keeps our rulesmakers sane.)


Steve please explain this are you saying that for example in a Trans Am series race you think TA2 cars with spec engine 450 hp and 10 inch slicks would equalize with a TA car with rule based engine at 800 hp and 13 and 14 inch slicks or a GTLM car is going to equalize with a DP car or a GP2 car is going to equalize with an F1 car ?

Also I must say I am starting to get sick of your comment about my racing being casual I spend every spare minute maintaining prepping and improving my car it ain't so casual
And if you ask most people what part of a big league race they watch it is the first 10 minutes and the last 10 minutes so a sprints race is just that

Bryce Lee # 10 Merkur GT1

Steven Scala
08-22-2015, 08:55 AM
a) long races equalize competition by exposing the weaknesses implied by massive power. This is why Chump works. This also helps keep tech lines nice and short. (Yes I know Firehawk tech was stupid, but the rules were commensurate to a televised continental championship. We know we're regional, and that usually keeps our rulesmakers sane.)


Steve please explain this are you saying that for example in a Trans Am series race you think TA2 cars with spec engine 450 hp and 10 inch slicks would equalize with a TA car with rule based engine at 800 hp and 13 and 14 inch slicks or a GTLM car is going to equalize with a DP car or a GP2 car is going to equalize with an F1 car ?

Also I must say I am starting to get sick of your comment about my racing being casual I spend every spare minute maintaining prepping and improving my car it ain't so casual
And if you ask most people what part of a big league race they watch it is the first 10 minutes and the last 10 minutes so a sprints race is just that

Bryce Lee # 10 Merkur GT1

You just described a bunch of different classes. That's practically half the rulebook written right there.

Kcodekid
08-22-2015, 09:09 AM
You just described a bunch of different classes. That's practically half the rulebook written right there.

Is this an answer to my question ?

shaker351
08-22-2015, 09:46 AM
this is a quote from an article written by Mike Burroughs.

"Sportscar racing is fraught with rivalries: they stand as the ultimate motivation in a sport where bragging rights reign supreme. Ranging from the likes of Ayrton Senna vs. Alain Prost, and Jeff Gordon vs. Dale Earnhardt, or even Big Foot vs. Grave Digger, it's these iconic rivalries that bring new fans to the sport and fuel the flames of competition. In fact, one of racing's rivalries in particular comes close to contesting the Red Sox versus the Yankees as the greatest rivalry in American history... none other than one of American muscle: Ford vs. Chevrolet." END OF QUOTE. We need to bring the rivalry back.Ford vs. Chevy, FWD. Vs. RWD, Jap Scrap Vs. American Muscle.While I respect the european auto industry they just don't do it for me, And everyone knows my hate for jap scrap front drive 4 cylinder pieces of crap that pollute our road ways and race tracks, Especially the products from the brain washing, lieing, smoke and mirror company and their entire dealer network we call SLOYOTA.It's all just my opinion and part of the rivalry I have and enjoy from being involved in racing for so many years.So don't get so offended and uptight and use it as a weak ass excuse to not race, but rather grow some balls and use it to fuel the fire the passion and the competitveness to get out there and kick some ass.If you beat us it only drives us to work and race harder and keep racing and the rivalry alive.

Steven Scala
08-22-2015, 09:52 AM
No, this is.

a) long races equalize competition by exposing the weaknesses implied by massive power. This is why Chump works. This also helps keep tech lines nice and short. (Yes I know Firehawk tech was stupid, but the rules were commensurate to a televised continental championship. We know we're regional, and that usually keeps our rulesmakers sane.)


Steve please explain this are you saying that for example in a Trans Am series race you think TA2 cars with spec engine 450 hp and 10 inch slicks would equalize with a TA car with rule based engine at 800 hp and 13 and 14 inch slicks or a GTLM car is going to equalize with a DP car or a GP2 car is going to equalize with an F1 car ?

Also I must say I am starting to get sick of your comment about my racing being casual I spend every spare minute maintaining prepping and improving my car it ain't so casual
And if you ask most people what part of a big league race they watch it is the first 10 minutes and the last 10 minutes so a sprints race is just that

Bryce Lee # 10 Merkur GT1

Bryce, are you asking whether different classes will equalize over a race distance? They probably won't. That's why we call them classes, and consider them as context to overall finishing order. We all know that not all cars are equal, but when I look at a tubeframed gt car, I figure I'd bet over/under on that car's competitiveness among tubeframed gt cars. If it's got a v8, I'd consider it in the v8 context. If it's got a four-cylinder, I'd consider it a hero. If it's got a turbo, I'd expect it takes more prep time.

Of course cars are different from each other. That's why we have names for them, and they work a lot better in promoting word-of-mouth for top-billing categories than an admittedly useful codex of letters and laptimes. Undercard series' and drift shows have their own draws too. An infield concours has its own draw, with owners who are as committed to car prep as yourself, but who we'd all bet would be trumped over the course of a single lap by a time-attack rookie. The score is in laps completed, but the concours winner still gets his own trophy.

Steven Scala
08-22-2015, 09:58 AM
this is a quote from an article written by Mike Burroughs.

"Sportscar racing is fraught with rivalries: they stand as the ultimate motivation in a sport where bragging rights reign supreme. Ranging from the likes of Ayrton Senna vs. Alain Prost, and Jeff Gordon vs. Dale Earnhardt, or even Big Foot vs. Grave Digger, it's these iconic rivalries that bring new fans to the sport and fuel the flames of competition. In fact, one of racing's rivalries in particular comes close to contesting the Red Sox versus the Yankees as the greatest rivalry in American history... none other than one of American muscle: Ford vs. Chevrolet." END OF QUOTE. We need to bring the rivalry back.Ford vs. Chevy, FWD. Vs. RWD, Jap Scrap Vs. American Muscle.While I respect the european auto industry they just don't do it for me, And everyone knows my hate for jap scrap front drive 4 cylinder pieces of crap that pollute our road ways and race tracks, Especially the products from the brain washing, lieing, smoke and mirror company and their entire dealer network we call SLOYOTA.It's all just my opinion and part of the rivalry I have and enjoy from being involved in racing for so many years.So don't get so offended and uptight and use it as a weak ass excuse to not race, but rather grow some balls and use it to fuel the fire the passion and the competitveness to get out there and kick some ass.If you beat us it only drives us to work and race harder and keep racing and the rivalry alive.

100%, aside from comments denigrating economy cars. Gotta have that versus, though.

Kcodekid
08-22-2015, 10:07 AM
but who we'd all bet would be trumped over the course of a single lap by a time-attack rookie.

WHAT?

Steven Scala
08-22-2015, 10:24 AM
but who we'd all bet would be trumped over the course of a single lap by a time-attack rookie.

WHAT?

EDIT: Explained the argument, not some possibly misconstruable wording.

In clear terms, if we invited a time attack rookie to race a concours winner, who would you bet on over a single lap? Concours and time attack are good undercards, but not all contests are equal. Endurance > Sprints > Time Attack > Drift > Drag > Concours

Doug P
08-22-2015, 04:31 PM
I don't have a clue what the hell your talking about anymore.

See you in September for the last two weekends.

DavidSim
08-22-2015, 06:05 PM
>>See you in September for the last two weekends.<<

Sounds like a plan man, I've got my car all ready to go too, see you there.

10-4

SlotMotorsports
08-22-2015, 06:12 PM
Just wanted to comment on the early days of challenge with breakouts. Glad we were there ! With Steve driving the Honda in gt5 , several cars in contention for the championship. Really good cars from Ontario and Quebec in the series , 40 plus cars starting at Calabogie.
The rule change pushed many cars out, our Focus included.
Like I said , glad we were there .
See everyone in early Sept.

Chris Lawson
08-23-2015, 01:58 PM
Steve,

There is an election coming....are you campaigning? Because I seem to tune out about the 5th word. It all sounds the same, or I really really have to concentrate to figure out what you are saying, and even then the image of a dog chasing his tail comes to mind.

If a car is slower than an another car in a twenty minute race, even if they are in the same class, my over/under (or whatever you call it) says there is no way in hell that some magic 1 hour endurance race is going to equalize things so the slower car magically catches the faster car (proof of that is in the last few years Challenge results). I understand that fuel mileage etc can play a role, but in our one hour format I don't think any of the cars had to fuel.

A faster car is a faster car. Faster cars win races. :eek:

Just sayin' :)

nbs2005
08-23-2015, 11:09 PM
I think if you created a CHUMP like class using similar rules (including not requiring a racing license) and ran a 3 hour race for $400 entry you'd have 30+ car fields. Or you could run 3 20 minute races for $200, again with CHUMP like rules and have the same 30+ car fields. It really is that easy. Please don't tell me it can't be done or that you can't insure it. It can be done. Hell, I'll even lead the charge.